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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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famous_a cardinal_n taietan●_n that_o do_v hold_v and_o maintain_v that_o the_o pope_n can_v err_v in_o the_o definition_n of_o faith_n yet_o do_v affirm_v in_o his_o commentary_n upon_o matthew_n that_o he_o may_v err_v in_o judgement_n whether_o a_o thing_n be_v lawful_a or_o no_o and_o therefore_o he_o do_v not_o accept_v the_o de●rees_n of_o the_o pope_n in_o his_o controversy_n of_o divotee_n for_o definitive_a of_o faith_n but_o for_o judicial_a and_o in_o judgement_n the_o pope_n themselves_n say_v he_o do_v confess_v that_o they_o have_v err_v and_o so_o then_o may_v also_o a_o general_a counsel_n err_v in_o judgement_n by_o your_o own_o rule_n if_o perhaps_o any_o judgement_n be_v to_o be_v find_v of_o the_o counsel_n of_o the_o lateran_n against_o raimond_n the_o earl_n of_o tolouse_n for_o not_o purge_v his_o country_n of_o the_o albigenses_n receive_v canon_n of_o counsel_n bind_v not_o but_o where_o they_o be_v receive_v now_o this_o first_o scruple_n be_v take_v away_o let_v we_o descend_v unto_o our_o next_o article_n and_o conclusion_n that_o the_o canon_n do_v not_o bind_v we_o in_o this_o realm_n who_o be_v so_o ignorant_a that_o know_v not_o that_o all_o decree_n and_o canon_n of_o general_a counsel_n be_v not_o observe_v and_o keep_v in_o every_o country_n neither_o do_v thy_o bind_v the_o breaker_n of_o they_o in_o conscience_n as_o for_o example_n there_o be_v a_o decree_n make_v by_o the_o counsel_n at_o nice_a that_o deacons_n shall_v not_o sit_v above_o priest_n but_o yet_o we_o do_v see_v at_o rome_n the_o deacon_n cardinal_n do_v sit_v above_o bishop_n that_o be_v no_o cardinal_n likewise_o in_o sexto_fw-la constantinapolitano_fw-it in_o trullo_n there_o be_v forbid_v kneel_v in_o prayer_n on_o the_o sunday_n and_o so_o likewise_o all_o the_o time_n between_o easter_n and_o whitsuntide_n and_o also_o that_o no_o man_n shall_v fast_v the_o saturneday_n in_o lent_n but_o the_o quite_o contrary_a of_o both_o canon_n be_v most_o usual_a in_o this_o land_n and_o think_v most_o devoute_a when_o the_o pope_n be_v in_o his_o high_a prime_a here_o moreover_o it_o be_v the_o common_a opinion_n of_o all_o the_o canoniste_n that_o the_o decree_n and_o canon_n reformative_a do_v not_o else_o where_o bind_v but_o where_o they_o have_v be_v receive_v and_o therefore_o our_o seminary_a priest_n do_v hold_v that_o the_o catholic_n roman_a of_o this_o realm_n nor_o yet_o those_o in_o france_n be_v not_o bind_v to_o observe_v the_o canon_n of_o the_o late_a counsel_n at_o trent_n because_o they_o have_v be_v public_o receive_v in_o neither_o of_o the_o kingdom_n this_o then_o be_v so_o if_o i_o can_v prove_v that_o this_o canon_n of_o depose_v of_o prince_n be_v never_o receive_v in_o this_o realm_n then_o have_v i_o convince_v that_o it_o do_v bind_v no_o man_n of_o this_o realm_n in_o conscience_n and_o this_o will_v i_o first_o prove_v by_o circumstance_n of_o the_o time_n and_o second_o because_o diverse_a other_o 〈◊〉_d for_o down_o in_o the_o same_o counsel_n be_v never_o observe_v 〈◊〉_d as_o for_o this_o canon_n time_n the_o canon_n never_o receive_v prove_v by_o circumstance_n of_o time_n it_o never_o come_v in_o practice_n hear_v ●ntill_a king_n henry_n the_o eight_o first_o it_o be_v certain_a that_o the_o counsel_n at_o laterane_n be_v hold_v in_o anno_fw-la domini_fw-la 1215._o and_o in_o the_o seven_o year_n of_o the_o reign_n of_o king_n jo●n_n and_o in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o bloody_a broil_n of_o the_o baron_n against_o the_o king_n it_o can_v not_o be_v deny_v but_o that_o the_o king_n have_v three_o ambassador_n there_o and_o likely_a enough_o it_o be_v that_o they_o subscribe_v and_o consent_v as_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o ambassador_n do_v for_o their_o master_n seek_v all_o the_o mean_n he_o can_v to_o please_v the_o pope_n that_o he_o may_v have_v his_o help_n against_o the_o baron_n and_o so_o indeed_o he_o stand_v his_o fast_a friend_n and_o at_o the_o counsel_n accurse_v the_o baron_n suspend_v the_o archbishop_n of_o canterbury_n stephan_n lang●●●_n for_o take_v part_n with_o they_o and_o for_o the_o same_o quarrel_n will_v not_o allow_v his_o brother_n simon_n elect_v archbishop_n of_o york_n so_o that_o there_o be_v no_o doubt_n but_o the_o great_a part_n of_o the_o realm_n be_v as_o ready_a to_o displease_v the_o pope_n as_o their_o prince_n be_v to_o please_v he_o for_o the_o chief_a cause_n that_o move_v the_o king_n to_o send_v ambassador_n unto_o the_o counsel_n be_v say_v mathews_n of_o paris_n to_o procure_v the_o pope_n curse_n against_o the_o baron_n these_o woeful_a war_n continue_v to_o the_o death_n of_o king_n john_n so_o that_o no_o parliament_n be_v or_o can_v be_v hold_v whereby_o this_o canon_n can_v be_v receive_v for_o if_o sir_n thomas_n more_o in_o his_o debellation_n do_v true_o say_v that_o king_n john_n can_v not_o make_v his_o kingdom_n tributary_n to_o the_o pope_n without_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o parliament_n much_o less_o can_v he_o give_v the_o pope_n authority_n to_o give_v the_o realm_n away_o god_n know_v to_o who_o it_o shall_v please_v he_o or_o that_o christian_a that_o be_v able_a to_o win_v it_o by_o fine_a force_n for_o according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o canon_n law_n quod_fw-la omnes_fw-la tangit_fw-la ab_fw-la omnibus_fw-la debet_fw-la approbari_fw-la that_o which_o touch_v all_o man_n ought_v to_o be_v allow_v and_o approve_a and_o confirm_v by_o all_o wherefore_o the_o lord_n chief_a justice_n in_o the_o first_o year_n of_o the_o reign_n of_o henry_n the_o seven_o as_o we_o do_v read_v in_o the_o report_n of_o the_o same_o year_n termino_fw-la hillarii_n chap._n 10._o affirm_v that_o all_o the_o baron_n unto_o the_o pope_n that_o after_o a_o sort_n command_v edward_n the_o first_o to_o surcease_v from_o war_a on_o the_o scot_n that_o hold_v of_o he_o that_o although_o the_o king_n will_v give_v away_o the_o right_n he_o have_v to_o scotland_n yet_o for_o all_o that_o it_o shall_v not_o 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and_o livinge_n good_n and_o country_n to_o be_v expose_v to_o the_o sack_n and_o spoil_v of_o all_o their_o neighbour_n yea_o of_o all_o christendom_n if_o they_o shall_v unhappy_o happen_v to_o have_v a_o wicked_a king_n and_o also_o well_o may_v they_o satisfy_v the_o will_n and_o intent_n of_o the_o counsel_n without_o any_o such_o pernicious_a peril_n of_o there_o whole_a state_n and_o also_o retain_v still_o their_o ancient_a honour_n and_o liberty_n if_o they_o themselves_o do_v make_v choice_n of_o the_o physician_n that_o shall_v purge_v they_o if_o that_o the_o law_n of_o god_n have_v not_o utter_o forbid_v they_o to_o rebel_v from_o their_o prince_n be_v he_o never_o so_o wicked_a and_o not_o foolish_o bind_v themselves_o to_o take_v a_o purgation_n of_o they_o know_v not_o who_o &_o perhaps_o unhappy_o of_o such_o a_o one_o 〈◊〉_d ●●te_v likely_a to_o purge_v they_o of_o ill_a humour_n so_o extreme_o that_o he_o will_v destroy_v the_o habit_n of_o their_o body_n and_o hereof_o ●o_o say_v a_o example_n they_o need_v not_o to_o seek_v far_o for_o as_o the_o very_a same_o instant_n they_o have_v a_o very_a plain_a proof_n thereof_o in_o france_n where_o the_o earl_n of_o tolowse_n be_v deprive_v of_o his_o earldom_n because_o he_o will_v not_o purge_v his_o dominion_n of_o the_o albigenses_n and_o the_o earldom_n give_v by_o the_o pope_n unto_o simon_n the_o earl_n of_o monssort_n for_o that_o i_o may_v omit_v how_o bloody_o monssort_v execute_v the_o pope_n mandate_n be_v general_a of_o the_o croysy_a against_o the_o albigenses_n in_o sack_v the_o city_n murder_v the_o man_n and_o woman_n how_o he_o do_v also_o under_o that_o pretence_n assault_n &_o sack_v city_n that_o be_v not_o one_o whit_n infect_v with_o that_o sect_n and_o slay_v in_o one_o battle_n twenty_o thousand_o
by_o little_a and_o little_o they_o come_v to_o take_v place_n above_o all_o bishop_n archbishop_n metropolitan_o primate_fw-la &_o patriarch_n which_o begin_v to_o be_v use_v by_o little_a and_o little_a about_o the_o time_n of_o gregory_n the_o seven_o &_o vrbane_n the_o second_o in_o which_o time_n the_o election_n of_o the_o pope_n who_o authority_n do_v then_o begin_v to_o be_v supreme_a as_o well_o in_o spiritual_a thing_n as_o temporal_a the_o emperor_n be_v depress_v or_o tread_v down_o be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o hand_n and_o power_n of_o the_o emperor_n and_o grant_v especial_o to_o the_o cardinal_n and_o anon_o after_o a_o priest_n cardinal_n be_v a_o mean_a place_n between_o a_o bishop_n &_o other_o priest_n not_o cardinal_n but_o in_o the_o time_n of_o alexander_n the_o three_o under_o who_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v advance_v to_o the_o high_a top_n or_o step_v in_o earth_n the_o most_o mighty_a emperor_n frederick_n redbeard_n &_o he_o also_o a_o most_o infestious_a foe_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v tread_v under_o foot_n &_o vanquish_v and_o force_v to_o desire_v peace_n of_o the_o church_n then_o first_o contrariwise_o priest_n cardinal_n be_v make_v of_o bishop_n for_o the_o dignity_n of_o the_o cardinal_n do_v still_o grow_v with_o the_o dignity_n of_o the_o church_n &_o bishop_n of_o rome_n but_o that_o be_v great_a in_o those_o day_n thus_o far_a omphrius_fw-la but_o because_o platina_n &_o other_o do_v affirm_v that_o the_o pope_n &_o the_o emperor_n first_o fall_v out_o about_o simony_n or_o invest_n of_o bishop_n let_v we_o see_v how_o injurious_o herein_o the_o pope_n deal_v with_o the_o emperor_n it_o do_v appear_v both_o by_o the_o book_n of_o the_o canon_n law_n &_o also_o by_o sigonius_n and_o other_o historian_n the_o pope_n chief_a favourer_n that_o pope_n hadrian_n give_v unto_o charles_n the_o great_a the_o king_n of_o the_o french_a man_n &_o emperor_n of_o rome_n &_o leo_n the_o eight_o unto_o otho_n the_o great_a the_o king_n of_o the_o tuischtman_n &_o emperor_n for_o ever_o the_o investure_n of_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n &_o of_o all_o other_o bishop_n within_o their_o dominion_n decree_a that_o no_o bishop_n choose_v by_o the_o clergy_n and_o people_n shall_v be_v consecrate_v unless_o he_o be_v first_o nominate_v &_o invest_v that_o be_v have_v the_o crosier_n and_o ring_n deliver_v he_o by_o the_o emperor_n this_o authority_n &_o privilege_n enjoy_v all_o emperor_n from_o charles_n the_o great_a unto_o this_o henry_n be_v the_o 17_o in_o succession_n and_o that_o he_o use_v it_o not_o otherwise_o it_o be_v apparent_a by_o the_o election_n of_o the_o bishop_n of_o cullen_n by_o the_o clergy_n &_o the_o people_n a_o little_a while_n before_o this_o broil_n whereof_o we_o do_v read_v mention_v make_v in_o lambertus_n snatchburgensis_n a_o thing_n always_o use_v in_o england_n that_o neither_o bishop_n nor_o abot_n shall_v be_v choose_v without_o a_o congee_n de_fw-fr ler_n or_o licence_n to_o choose_v first_o obtain_v of_o the_o king_n nor_o repute_v for_o bishop_n before_o the_o king_n have_v confirm_v he_o so_o likewise_o hosius_n contra_fw-la brentium_n do_v affirm_v that_o the_o king_n of_o poland_n have_v always_o have_v the_o nominate_n of_o all_o bishp_n with_o in_o their_o kingdom_n now_o of_o this_o ancient_a part_n of_o his_o patrimony_n of_o the_o empire_n will_v gregory_n spoil_v henry_n yea_o and_o all_o lay_v man_n make_v a_o decree_n that_o he_o shall_v be_v accurse_v that_o do_v take_v any_o ecclesiastical_a dignity_n or_o benefice_n at_o the_o hand_n of_o any_o lie_v man_n sabell_n see_v platina_n and_o sabell_n and_o do_v also_o excommunicate_a the_o lay_n man_n that_o shall_v give_v any_o now_o i_o pray_v you_o which_o of_o they_o two_o show_v most_o charity_n henry_n that_o for_o quietness_n sake_n be_v content_v to_o loose_v the_o right_n which_o he_o and_o his_o ancestor_n have_v so_o long_a time_n hold_v in_o confirm_v of_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n in_o the_o cause_n and_o bloody_a schism_n of_o alexander_n gregory_n immediate_a predecessor_n or_o gregory_n that_o be_v not_o content_v and_o satisfy_v with_o this_o rare_a indulgence_n of_o the_o emperor_n in_o one_o and_o the_o great_a bishopric_n but_o will_v depose_v he_o unless_o he_o will_v also_o surrender_v his_o right_n in_o all_o the_o rest_n &_o either_o will_v have_v his_o will_n or_o else_o will_v set_v all_o christendom_n in_o a_o uproar_n and_o put_v case_n he_o have_v sell_v two_o or_o three_o small_a bishopprickes_n as_o his_o enemy_n do_v charge_v he_o for_o the_o great_a elector_n see_v they_o themselves_o be_v his_o enemy_n confess_v he_o have_v not_o sell_v be_v that_o a_o sufficient_a cause_n to_o make_v he_o forsake_v he_o and_o his_o successor_n for_o ever_o a_o ancient_a right_n and_o inheritance_n belong_v to_o the_o imperial_a crown_n as_o the_o present_n unto_o benefice_n be_v a_o inheritance_n of_o many_o secular_a subject_n and_o can_v the_o church_n of_o christ_n be_v so_o much_o endamage_v thereby_o as_o with_o thirty_o year_n bloody_a war_n in_o all_o part_n of_o germany_n and_o italy_n through_o the_o trouble_n whereof_o neither_o the_o pope_n nor_o other_o bishop_n can_v employ_v their_o function_n but_o let_v this_o pass_n philippe_n philippe_n the_o next_o deposition_n be_v of_o philip_n the_o emperor_n for_o invade_a peter_n patrimony_n before_o he_o be_v emperor_n and_o while_o he_o be_v duke_n of_o tuscan_a but_o because_o some_o will_v say_v he_o be_v never_o emperor_n because_o through_o the_o pope_n menace_n but_o five_o of_o the_o elector_n have_v choose_v he_o we_o will_v let_v he_o pass_v and_o come_v unto_o otho_n otho_n otho_n the_o duke_n of_o saxon_n who_o two_o of_o the_o elector_n afterward_o at_o the_o great_a instance_n of_o the_o pope_n have_v choose_v emperor_n and_o who_o he_o almost_o immediate_o after_o he_o have_v crown_v he_o depose_v because_o he_o invade_v the_o land_n of_o 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