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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16170	A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist.	Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628.	1598 (1598)	STC 3092; ESTC S102284	61,282	90

famous Cardinall Taietan● that doth hold and maintaine that the Pope cannot erre in the definition of faith yet doth affirme in his commentaries vpon Mathew that he may erre in iudgement whether a thing be lawfull or noe And therefore he doth not accept the de●rees of the Pope in his controuersie of diuotee for definitiue of faith but for iudiciall And in iudgementes the Popes themselues saith he doe confesse that they haue erred and so then may also a generall counsell erre in iudgements by your owne rules if perhaps any iudgement be to be founde of the counsell of the Laterane against Raimond the Earle of Tolouse for not purging his country of the Albigenses Canons of counsels binde not but where they are receiued Nowe this first scruple beeing taken away let vs descend vnto our next article and conclusion that the Canon doth not binde vs in this realme who is so ignorant that knoweth not that all decrees and Canons of generall counsels are not obserued and kept in euerie country neyther doe thy binde the breakers of them in conscience As for example there was a decree made by the counsell at Nice that deacons shall not sit aboue priestes but yet we doe see at Rome the Deacon Cardinalles doe sitte aboue Bishoppes that be no Cardinalles Likewise in Sexto Constantinapolitano in Trullo there is forbidden kneeling in praier on the Sundayes and soe likewise all the time betweene Easter and Whitsontide And also that no man shall fast the Saturnedaies in Lent but the quite contrarie of both Canons was most vsuall in this lande and thought most deuoute when the Pope was in his highest prime heere Moreouer it is the common opinion of all the Canonistes that the decrees and Canons reformatiue doe not else where binde but where they haue beene receiued and therefore our seminary priestes doe holde that the Catholickes Romane of this Realme nor yet those in France be not bounde to obserue the Canons of the late counsell at Trent because they haue beene publikly receiued in neyther of the kingdomes This then beeing soe if I can prooue that this Canon of deposing of princes was neuer receiued in this Realme then haue I conuinced that it doth binde no man of this Realme in conscience And this will I first prooue by circumstance of the time and secondly because diuers other 〈◊〉 for downe in the same counsell were neuer obserued 〈◊〉 as for this Canon The Canon neuer receiued proued by circumstance of time it neuer came in practise heare ●ntill Kinge Henrie the eyght First it is certaine that the counsell at Laterane was helde in Anno Domini 1215. and in the seuenth yeare of the raigne of Kinge Io●n and in the time of the bloodie broyles of the Barons against the kinge it can not bee denyed but that the kinge had three Embassadours there and likelie enough it is that they subscribed and consented as the rest of the Embassadours did for their master sought all the meanes he coulde to please the Pope that hee might haue his helpe against the Barons and so indeede hee stoode his fast friende and at the counsell accursed the Barons suspended the Archbishoppe of Canterburie Stephan Lang●●● for taking parte with them and for the same quarrell would not allowe his brother Simon Elected Archbishoppe of yorke so that there is no doubte but the greatest parte of the realme were as readie to displease the Pope as their prince was to please him for the chiefest cause that moued the king to sende Embassadours vnto the counsell was saith Mathews of Paris to procure the Popes curse against the Barons These wofull warres continued to the death of kinge Iohn soe that no parliament was or coulde be helde whereby this Canon could be receiued For if Sir Thomas More in his debellation doth truely say that kinge Iohn coulde not make his kingdome tributarie to the Pope without the consente of the parliament much lesse coulde he giue the Pope authority to giue the realme away God knowes to whom it should please him or that Christian that was able to winne it by fine force for according to the rule of the Canon Lawe Quod omnes tangit ab omnibus debet approbari that which toucheth all men ought to be allowed and approued and confirmed by all wherefore the Lord chiefe Iustice in the first yeare of the raigne of Henry the seuenth as we doo reade in the reportes of the same yeare Termino Hillarii Chap. 10. affirmed that all the Barrons vnto the Pope that after a sorte commaunded Edwarde the first to surcease from warring on the Scottes that helde of him That although the king woulde giue away the right he had to Scotlands yet for all that it shoulde not be soe because that hee that is king of England is alwaies chiefe Lorde of Scotland And if the king of this Realme cannot of himselfe dispose of a thing annexed and incorporated to the crowne of this kingdome will any wise man be of opinion that king Iohn coulde dispose of the crowne of England of himselfe without the assent and consent of the states and ordaine forfeytures thereof to forreyners and strangers And although I can easily be perswaded that the subiectes for the extreame hatred that they bare vnto their present prince The iniquitie of the Canon woulde lightly be wonne to accept of causes to be discharged of their alleageanc to their king yet can I hardly be induced to beleeue that they coulde suffer themselues their wiues and children landes and liuinges goods and country to be exposed to the sacke and spoyle of all their neighbours yea of all Christendome if they shoulde vnhappily happe to haue a wicked king And also well might they satisfie the will and intent of the counsell without any such pernicious perill of there whole state and also retaine still their ancient honour and liberty if they themselues did make choise of the Physition that should purge them if that the law of God had not vtterly forbidden thē to rebell frō their prince were he neuer so wicked and not foolishly bind themselues to take a purgation of they know not whom perhaps vnhappily of such a one 〈◊〉 ●●te likely to purge them of ill humors so extreamely that he would destroy the habit of their bodye And hereof ●o saide an example they neded not to seeke far For as the very same instant they had a very plaine proofe thereof in France where the earle of Tolowse was depriued of his earledome because he would not purge his dominions of the Albigenses and the earledome giuen by the Pope vnto Simon the Earle of Monssort For that I may omit how bloudily Monssort executed the Popes mandate being generall of the Croysy against the Albigenses in sacking the Cities murdering the men and women how he did also vnder that pretence assaulte sacke cityes that were not one whit infected with that sect and slew in one battell twentie thousand

the seruice of their Lordes and not prescribe lawes therein vnto all other not subiect vnto him no more then the Queene of England can enacte that if the king of Spaine shall doe this and this that then hee shall forfeite his Crowne Noe law of the Church touching temporalties euer alowed in this Realme or the king of France make an edict that if any Lord in England shal committe such and such faultes that then he shall forfitte all his propertie ouer his bondmen and they to be enfranchised And therfore because the Princes of this Realme did neuer acknoledge themselues vassals vnto the Pope nor the See of Rome nor neuer agnised him for their Soueraigne in temporalities they did neuer heare when the Popes authoritie was greatest administer iustice and adiudge secular causes here according to the Popes decrees and Canons of the counsels but alwaies according to the lawes costomes and statutes of the Realme and in those causes the Canon law had no authoritie and force in this Land This is so often affirmed by the author of the learned booke called the Doctor and student who as he was a greate lawyer so was he also a good diuine and deuout Catholicke that it weare tedious to rehearse them all In the xliiii Chapter of thee seconde booke thus hee writeth for the ordinarie no yet the partie himselfe haue any authoritie to binde any inheritance by the authoritie of the spirituall law how then can they binde the inheritance of the crowne And againe in the same Chapter and th●●fore it is somwhat to bee meruelled that ordinaries will admitte such land for a title c. without knowing how the common law will serue therein for of meere right all inheritance within this Realme ought to bee ordered by the Kinges Law Also in the xxxvi Chapter of the second booke the Doctor of diuinitie saith yet me thinkes alwaies that the title of the lapse in such case is giuen by the law of the Church and not by the temporall law and therefore it forceth but little what the temporall law will in it as me seemeth Whereunto the author answereth thus vnder the name of the student of law In such cuntries where the Pope hath power to determine the right of temporall thinges I thinke it is as thou sayest but in this realme it is not so And the right of presentment is a temporall thing and a temporall inheritance and therefore I doe thinke it belongeth to the Kinges law to determine and also to make lawes who shall present after the six moneth aswell as before so that the title of abilitie or none abilitie be not therefore taken from the ordinaries And in like wise it is of auoidance of benefices that is to say that it shall be iudged by the Kinges lawes when a benefice shal be saide uoide and when not and not by the law of the Church and shall the law of the Church determine when the crowne is voide As when a parson is made a Byshoppe or accepteth another benefice without licence or resigneth or is depriued in these causes the common law saith that the benefices be voide And so they should be though the Church had made a law to the contrarie And so if the Pope should haue any title in this case to present it should be by the lawe of this Realme And if hee should haue title to present vnto the Crowne should it not bee by the lawe of this Realme And I haue not seene ne harde that the lawes of this Realme haue giuen any title to the Pope to determine any temporal thing that may be lawfully determined by the Kings Court no● y●● that he may depose the King and giue his kingdom vnto any forreiner but because noe man should repute this lawyer for a Lollard and enimie vnto the Pope see what immediately followeth Doctor It seemeth by the reason that thou hast made now that thou preferrest the Kinges authoritie in presentments before the Popes and that me thinkes should not stand with the Law of God syth the Pope is the vicar generall vnder GOD. Student That I haue saide prooueth nor for the highest preferment in presentmentes is to haue authoritie to examine the abilitie of the person that is presented for if the presented bee able it sufficeth to the discharge of the ordinary by whomesoeuer hee bee presented that authoritie is not denyed by the lawe of the Realme to belong alwaies to the spirituall iurisdiction Thus seing the authour of the Doctor and the student whom some suppose to be Sainte Germany is prooued to bee noe partiall man against the Pope but onely a learned Lawyer that setteth downe vprightly to the satisfaction of mens consciences what right euery man hath and declareth the common opinion of his time when the Popes power was in the Prime we will rehearse yet more out of him to the confirmation of you our Catholicke countrimen who doe openly professe that ye will grant her maiestie as much and as greate authoritie as any of her ancestors before hir father had since the conquest yea or since they embraced the faith of Christ In the xlvii Chapter of the seconde booke he saith that although by the Canon Law the Pope ought to present to all benefice● or dignities the incumbents whereof dye at Rome or within two dayes ●ourney thereof yet he saith that it holdeth not 〈◊〉 this Realme because by the lawes of this realme the King ought according to the auncient right of his crowne to present of all his aduowsons that be of his patronage And in likewise other patrons of benefices of their presentment and the plea of the right of presentments of benefice is within this Realme belongeth to the King and his Crowne And these titles can not be taken from the king and his subiectes but by their assent and so the law that is made therein to put away that title bindeth not in this realme Then may I reason of a stronger that the Kinges title to the Crowne can not be taken away without his consent and so the Law that is made therin by the Church to put away that title bindeth not in this Realme But to returne againe vnto presentments of benefices who knoweth not the terrible statute of premunire made in the Raigne of Edwarde the third against all such as shoulde prouide English benefices or spirituall dignities from Rome or purchase them from the Pope and also against all atturneyes and agents in that matter against the which statute the Pope neuer spurned but suffered it saith Saint Germany and it hath alwaies beene vsed in this Realme with-without resistance yea and in the statute made against the prouisions and translations of Byshoppes by the Pope made in the xvi yeare of the raigne of Richarde the second the vi Chapter we finde in those wordes the cause of the making of the statute least the Crowne of this realme which is immediatly subiect to God and to none other

and admonished by the Church shall neglect to purge his land from this hereticall filthinesse let him be inknotted with the band of excommunication by the Metropolitane and Bishoppes of that prouince And if he shall contemne to satisfie within one yeare let this be signified vnto the Bishop of Rome that he may denounce his vassalles acquitted of his fealtie and expone or set forth his land vnto the Catholikes for them to take who the heretikes being driuen out may possesse it without contradiction and keepe it in the puritie of the faith so that the goods of such condemned men if they be laye men be escheted to the prince or if they be clarkes be applied to the Churches of whom they receiued stipendes Heere ye see is no definitiue sentence of faith set downe but onely an order appointed to be vsed for the rooting out of heresies so that no weake Catholike conscience neede to make scruple that the Pope can depose princes because the counsel doth say let it signified to the Bishoppe of Rome that he may denounce his subiectes loosed of their obedience c. For the counsell goeth no more about to decide whether Bishoppes of Rome may depose princes then whether Bishoppes may excommunicate them whereof no man in those daies doubted but content themselues with the vsed and practised authority of them both for long before this time had the Popes vsed to depose princes as Pope Gregory the seuenth the Emperour Henry the fourth and Boleslaw king of Poland And Innocentius tertius the present Pope that then held the counsell had himselfe before that time deposed the Emperours Philip and Otho Iohn the king of England and Raymond the Earle of Tolouse So that seeing no man did then moue any doubt whether Popes might lawfully doe it or no neither did the counsell then goe about to determine it but wholly omitting the matter doth onely set downe an order to be vsed for the destroying of heresies But otherwise if ye shoulde alwaies inferre that for decreed for faith and lawfull which generall counsels doe manie times as it were secretly receiue and not reproue ye will neuer be able to defend them from errour in faith and that which is equiualent from beeing one contradictorie vnto another For at the second counsell of Nice it is not refuted Cap. 32. but rather it seemeth by the way to be allowed that Angels haue materiall bodies So likewise this counsell may after a sort seeme to allowe that patrons may lawfully in good conscience detayne a greate parte of the tythes and profits of their Churches so that they doe leaue the vicar a sufficient liuing because that this counsell finding faulte with this misorder that patrons and certaine other persons doe take the profits of the parish Churches doth charge them with no more then the which what can be more against good conscience and equity then he to liue by the altar that serueth not at the altar and namely among Catholickes Romane that doe holde that tythes are by the lawe of God due onely to priestes and with what conscince then can any lay man enioy them Likewise in the same counsell there is a Canon that he that hath a parish Church shall not serue the cure by his vicar but by himselfe vnlesse perhaps the Church be annexed to a prebende or dignitie in the which case we do grant that he which hath a prebend or dignitie seeing it must be that he do serue in the greater Church that he doe endeuour to haue in that parish Church a meete and perpetuall vicar canonically instituted c. Heere ye see that this counsell doth not thinke that residence vpon benefices with charge of soules is commaunded by God his lawe which is contrary to the counsell at Treent in the 23 Section in the first chapter of reformation Yea Dominicus Soto in his booke de●ertitudine gratiae against Catherine doth flatly affirme that all the Bishops learned men that were at that counsell did so wholly agree thar residence was required by the lawe of God that there was not one man that doubted thereof but onely Catherine Moreouer this counsell thinkes it meeter that a man be resident in the Cathedrall Church then in his parish Church yea it seemeth to say of duetie it must be so a thing verie absurd in Dominicke Soto his iudgement who sharply reproueth the Cardinalles that haue Bishopprickes and be not resident on them but abide and continue at Rome and thinketh it no reason that they alleage that they ought to make their abode at Rome because they be Cardinalles and as it were assistants vnto the Pope for saith he residences vpon Bishopprickes are commaunded by God but Cardinalles to be attendant on the Pope is but a constitution of man the which must needes giue place to the ordinances more ancient and greater And bitterly doth he inuey against the common abuse that whereas by the Canons of the Church no Cardinall may be a Bishoppe because both offices require residence which one man can not performe the Cardinalles to delude the force of this Canon are neuer instituted Bishoppes but haue Bishopprickes giuen them in perpetuall commenda whereby it is come to passe that the ordinance of Commendaes which was first instituted for the benefite of the Church by suffering one to haue the gouernment of it for a time vntill a meete man might be founde for it is nowe vsed to the destruction of the Church and the vnlawfull enriching of the couetous ambitious Yea the counsell of Trent in the 25. Section Chap. 18. doth thinke this Canon of the counsell of Laterane so vnreasonable and vniust for to impropriate benefices with charge of soules and to ordaine in them a perpetuall vicar to serue the cure that they doe forbid the like to be done euer hereafter notwithstanding any grace or grant wisely weying the difference betweene an institution of God and an ordinance of man the seruing of God in a publike charge in priuate person finally howe much greater good or hurt may ensue by the continuall presence or the absence of the person in or from his parish then by his lying at or frō the Cathedral Church Soe that to salue all this gere both ye and we are forced to say that the counsels went not about to determine what ought to be beleeued in those poyntes and so also must ye doe in this controuersie of deposing princes and not to account it for a definition of faith but a politique constitution Of which kinde of Canons Saint Augustine saith De Baptis-Donat lib. 2. cap 3. who knoweth not that former generall counsels are often amended by the latter when by some experiment of thinges that is opened which had beene shut and that knowen that lay hidden without any type of sacrilegious pride without any swollen necke of vaine glorie without any contention of spi●●full enuie with holy humilitie Catholike peace and Christian charitie Moreouer the

by little and little they came to take place aboue all Bishoppes Archbishops Metropolitans Primates Patriarkes which began to be vsed by little and little about the time of Gregory the seuenth Vrbane the second in which times the election of the Pope whose authority did then begin to be supreame as well in spirituall thinges as temporall the Emperours being depressed or trodden downe was taken out of the hands and power of the Emperours and granted especially to the Cardinals And anone after a Priest Cardinall was a meane place between a Bishop other Priestes not Cardinals But in the time of Alexander the third vnder whom the Church of Rome was aduanced to the highest top or step in earth the most mighty Emperour Fredericke Redbeard he also a most infestious foe of the Church of Rome being trodē vnder foot vanquished and forced to desire peace of the Church then first contrariwise Priest Cardinals were made of Bishops for the dignity of the Cardinals did stil grow with the dignity of the Church Bishops of Rome but that was greatest in those daies Thus farre Omphrius But because Platina others do affirme that the Pope the Emperour first fell out about symony or inuesting of Bishops let vs see how iniuriously herein the Pope dealt with the Emperour It doth appeare both by the Bookes of the canon law also by Sigonius and other historians the Popes chiefe fauourers that Pope Hadriā gaue vnto Charles the great the king of the french men Emperour of Rome Leo the eight vnto Otho the great the king of the Tuischtmen Emperour for euer the inuesture of the Bishops of Rome of al other Bishops within their dominions decreeing that no Bishop chosen by the clargy and people should be consecrated vnlesse he were first nominated inuested that is had the crosier and ring deliuered him by the Emperour this authority priuiledge enioied al Emperours from Charles the great vnto this Henry being the 17 in succession and that he vsed it no otherwise it is aparant by the election of the Bishop of Cullen by the clergy the people a little while before this broile wherof we do read mention made in Lambertus Snatchburgensis A thing alwaies vsed in England that neyther Bishop nor Abot should be chosen without a conge de ler or licence to chose first obtained of the king nor reputed for Bishop before the king had confirmed him So likewise Hosius contra Brentium doth affirme that the kings of Poland haue alwaies had the nominating of all Bishps with in their kingdom Now of this anciēt part of his patrimony of the Empyre would Gregorie spoyle Henry yea and all lay men making a decree that he should be accursed that did take any ecclesiasticall dignitie or benefice at the hande of any lay man See Platina and Sabell and did also excommunicate the lay man that should giue any nowe I pray you which of them two shewed most charitie Henry that for quietnesse sake was contented to loose the right which he and his ancestors had so long time held in confirming of the Bishops of Rome in the cause and bloodie schisme of Alexander Gregories immediate predecessor or Gregorie that was not contented and satisfied with this rare indulgence of the Emperour in one and the greatest Bishoppricke but would depose him vnlesse he would also surrender his right in all the rest eyther would haue his wil or else would set all Christendome in an vprore And put case he had solde two or three small Bishopprickes as his enemies did charge him for the great electors sees they themselues beeing his enemies confessed he had not sold was that a sufficient cause to make him forsake him and his successors for euer an ancient right and inheritance belonging to the emperiall crowne as the presenting vnto benefices is an inheritance of many secular subiectes And could the Church of Christ be so much endamaged therby as with thirtie yeares bloodie warres in all partes of Germanie and Italy through the troubles whereof neyther the Popes nor other Bishoppes could employ their functions But letting this passe Philippe the next deposition was of Philip the Emperour for inuading Peters patrimony before he was Emperour and while he was duke of Tuscan But because some will say he was neuer Emperour because through the Popes menaces but fiue of the electors had chosen him we will let him passe and come vnto Otho Otho the Duke of Saxon whom two of the electors afterward at the great instance of the Pope had chosen Emperour and whom he almost immediatly after he had crowned him deposed because he inuaded the landes of his puple and vassall the king of Naples Did this come of charitie or of a priuate quarrell It is apparant that the Popes vsed not nor now doe to censure anie prince for enuading of his neighbour vnlesse he were a vassal or priuiledged prince of his And then to make vp the good three comes on a row Fredelicke the second Emperour Frederick and also king of Naples for inuesting of Bishoppes in Naples and leuying money of the clergie And after the controuersie was ended againe because he did not performe his vow to goe into the holy land and that also satisfied for making warres against the rebellious Lombardes or to make the verie worst of it for practising with the Frangipanes and other Romanes to reuolt from the Pope whom he distrusted did secretly ayde his rebelles in Lombardy And did not flesh and blood and priuate reuenge raigne in all these actions were any of these causes so weightie that for them should be raised vp the pernicious factions of Guelses and Ghibbelines to set at enmitie for euer not onely euery prince prouinc● and Citie of Italy but also euery name and familie for to embrace their murdering swordes The last deposed Emperour was Lewes the fourth Lewes See Platina and Nauill because he intermedled in Italie before the Pope had crowned him a vsuall thing and that which was the very cause indeede because he openly professed himselfe a fauourer of the Ghibbelines and namely the vicecount whom the Pope deadly hated and had excommunicated for taking armes against the Guelses and put the Florentines and the Neopolitanes and the other Guelses in feare least he would saith Platina ex●ct of them Iura imperia●a the rightes belonging to the Empyre And who seeth not heere partiality and not charitie Moreouer Peter Peter the king of Aragon was deposed and his kingdom of Aragon giuen vnto Charles of Valois the French kinges brother because he had receiued the Sicilians reuolting from the tyranny of Charles the Duke of Aniou whom the Pope had placed prince there And doth not also smell of priuate reuenge Is this the common good that Pighius beareth vs in hand the Church of Christ reapeth by this prerogatiue of the Pope that he doth therby reuenge the priuate