we appoint you to be the father pastor of your soules So the Monks for fear of excoÌ„munication though against their willes not without grudging gaue their voices and choose Stephen Langhton to be Primate of England Let go the wrong which the Bishop of Norwich receiued in that the Pope of his mere pleasure did frustrate his election to gratifie one of his own What Law permitteth the Pope to force men in their elections to choose whom he list to prescribe How could that election be good which was plainly wrested from a few Monks beyond the Seas with threats excommunications the rest that were at home being neither called nor bouÌ„d to go out of the Land for the choice of their Archbishop Why should not the king refuse that violent and shamefull packing of the Pope to plant his Cardinals in this Realm Or what should the king looke to haue of him that was deuoted to the court of Rome obtruded on him in this violent maner but a deadly enimie to his state as it after fel out and a continuall practiser against his person Phi. That is your suspition The. It proued too true for the kings auaile For this prelat not only inceÌ„sed the Pope against the king that he might be receiued to his See but after the king was reconciled and himselfe quietly possessed of his church he set all the Barons of this realme in an open rebellion against the king that neuer ceased till the king was poysoned Phi. You charge him vntruly Theo. His owne actes will not belie him The next yeare after his vntoward election the Pope interdicted the whole Land for that the king would not admit Steuen Langhton into his Realme no point of godlie discipline to chaftise the king but a tricke of your Romish policie to get the subiects to murmur at the Magistrate And foure yeares after when the Pope staied somwhat long as they thought in contriuing his matters against king Iohn your Canterbury Cardinall with the Bishops of London and Flie went to Rome coÌ„plained to the pope of the manifold rebellioÌ„s enormities which king Iohn had coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the time of the interdict to that present day increasing his cruelty tyraÌ„ny so these ambitious hirelings termed their soueraignes doings against God his holy church without intermissioÌ„ WherupoÌ„ they made supplicatioÌ„ to the pope that he would voutsafe of his godly coÌ„passion to helpe the church of England in this extremity So nice your clergie was yâ— wheÌ„ they were but a litle defalked of their abundaÌ„ces superfluities they could no longer abide it but desired to haue the king deposed Phi. The king seased on all their goods caused them to redeeme their immunities liberties raised a grieuous persecutioÌ„ against the whole clergy through out England Theo. We doubt not but your Monkes in this freight wil make great flames of smal sparks The king of EnglaÌ„d did as any prince in this like case would The clergy of this realm was at that time a richer and wealthier state than the Laitie discharged from all burdens and taxes to the crowne by the fauor of the Princes his progenitors If therefore when the Pope beganne to quarrell with the king about the chiefest church in his Realme and offered him so open wrong the cleargie were readie with their wealth and strength to assist the Pope against the king why should not the king both sease their goods into his handes make them redeeme their priuileges which they were wel able to doe for the maintenaunce of his crowne and kingdome against a wicked and iniurious oppressour And sure for ought that I see the king did but iustice For where the clergie refused to doe their duties and would not so much as say him or his people anie diuine seruice why shoulde the Prince suffer them to inioy those liuinges that were prouided for such as would Phi. The fault was not theirs they were restrained by the Popes interdict Theo. Were the fault in them or the Pope this is euident the clergie might better lacke their liuinges than the Realme diuine seruice Phi. Was it not tyrannie to famish so many thowsand Monkes Priests as were in this Land Theo. The king allowed them victum vestitum parce ex rebus proprijs meate drink and raiment out of their liuings though sparefully in respect of their former and vsuall excesse the rest hee kept in his hands till they discharged that function for which they were indowed with so liberal recompence Pâ—i You can not blame them Theo. Hee that perfourmeth a wicked interdict is to be blamed as well as he that commaundeth it Phi. This was not wicked Theo. There could be no wickeder The prohibition of publike praier and restrainct of the worde and Sacraments throughout the Realme is rather a dishonour to God and an iniurie to the faith than a seemely sentence for a christian Bishop You can neither shew vs warrant for it in the Scriptures nor example of it in the church of God for a thowsand yeares They did excommunicate persons not places they thrust not the innocent into the same extremitie with the nocent as you do much lesse did they prohibite God to be serued in the church his Sacraments to be ministred his word to bee preached which the Turkes do not offer where they conquere and Satan himselfe can wish no better increase of his kingdome than this horrible desolation of all those meanes that God hath appointed to saue the soules of men Phi. Then let them be obedient to their Bishops Theo. You can not say the people were disobedient but onely the king why then shoulde they be restrained from seruing God and stand in danger of euerlasting destruction which transgressed not Phi. Let them bee earnest with their king to yeelde Theo. And what if hee will not though they be neuer so earnest Phi. Let them be ready to compell him when they be required so to doe by their Bishops Theo. You hit the nayle right on the head Your generall debarring of diuine seruice throughout a Realme was nothing else but an Antichristian Policie to set the people in a discontent and to make them the readier to rebell against their Princes for whose sakes they be thus put in the high way to perish And therefore the clergie men that did execute and fulfill such an interdict were partakers of the same wickednesse with the pronouncers and by no reason can it bee counted cruelty in the king to take from them their ecclesiasticall promotions so long as they wickedly ceased from their ecclesiasticall functions by this or any other like interdict This was all the persecution and rebellion that king Iohn might iustly bee charged with and yet the Pope by the counsell of his cardinals and Bishops sententially defined that he should be deposed from his throne and an other placed by the Popes procurement that
to subiect his kingdome to a forraine Realme or change the forme of the common wealth from imperie to tyrannie or neglect the Lawes established by common consent of Prince and people to execute his owne pleasure In these and other cases which might be named if the Nobles commons ioyne togither to defend their auncient accustomed libertie regiment and lawes they may not well be counted rebels Phi. You denied that euen now when I did vrge it Theo. I denied that Bishops had authoritie to prescribe conditions to kinges when they crowned theÌ„ but I neuer denied that the people might preserue yeâ—sundation freedom form of their common-wealth which they forprised when they first consented to haue a king Phi. I remember you were resolute that subiectes might not resist their Princes for any respectes and now I see you slake Theo. As I sayde then so I say now the Law of God giueth no man leaue to resist his Prince but I neuer said that kingdoms and common-wealthes might not proportion their States as they thought best by their publike lawes which afterward the princes theÌ„selues may not violate By superior powers ordained of God we vnderstaÌ„d not only princes but al politike states regimeÌ„ts somwhere the people somwhere the Nobles hauing the same interest to the sword y Princes haue in their kingdoms in kingdoms where princes beare rule by the sword we do not meane the princes priuate wil against his lawes but his precept deriued froÌ„ his lawes agreeing with his lawes which though it be wicked yet may it not be resisted of any subiect with armed violence Mary when Princes offer their subiects not iustice but force and despise all Lawes to practise their lustes not euery nor any priuate man may take the sword to redresse the Prince but if the lawes of the land appoint the nobles as next to the king to assist him in doing right withhold him from doing wrong theÌ„ be they licensed by mans law so not prohibited by Gods to interpose themselues for the safegard of equitie innocencie and by all lawfull and needefull meanes to procure the Prince to bee refourmed but in no case depriued where the scepter is inherited Phi. If I should assent to this how doth it acquite your fellowes in Germanie Flaunders France and Scotland that resist their Catholike Princes for maintenance of their heresies Theo. Not vnlesse they proue their states to be such as I speake of Phi. That they shall neuer Theo. You be deeper in policie than in diuinitie that belike fitteth your affection better and yet therein you shew but what a malicious conceit and a slipperie tongue may soone suspect and vtter It is easie for a running and rayling head to sit at home in his chamber and call all men rebelles himselfe being the rankest otherwise I see neither trueth in reporting nor sense in debating the matters that are so often in your mouth Why should the Germanes submitting themselues to the Emperour at his election but on conditioÌ„ not enioy the same liberties securities of their publik State which their fathers did before them Why should they be counted rebels for preseruing their ciuill policie more than Italians which cut them-selues vtterly from the Empire by no consent nor allowance but only by force and disturbance The like we say for the Flemmings What reason the King of Spaine should alter their State and euert their auncient Lawes his stile declaring him not to be King but Earle of Flaunders And being admitted for a protectour if hee wil needes become an oppressour why should they not defend the freedome of their countrie The Scottes what haue they doone besides the placing the right heire and her own sonne when the mother fledde and forsooke the realme Be these those furious attempts and rebellions you talke of In France the King of Nauarre and the Prince of Condey might lawfully defend themselues from iniustice and violence and be ayded by other Princes their neighbours if the King as too mightie for them sought to oppresse them to whom they owe not simple subiection but respectiue homage as Scotland did to England and Normandie vnto Fraunce when the Kings notwithstanding had bitter warres ech with other The rest of the Nobles that did assist them if it were the Kings act that did oppresse them and not the Guises except the Lawes of the land doe permit them meanes to saue the State from open tyranny I will not excuse and yet the circumstances must be fully knowen before the fact can bee rightly discerned with which I confesse I am not so exactly acquainted But graunt you could find vs where PROTESTANTS haue taken armes in some one place or other for religion their armes were defenciue not inuasiue as yours are they resisted the Popes inquisitions not the lawes of their Countries as you doe they rescued their wiues and children from horrible butcherie they depriued not Princes as you would And yet all these imparities considered if I doe not shew by your owne stories an hundreth outrages of your side for one of ours I am content to lose the cause Looke backe therefore Sir Auditor to your owne accompts and view with shame enough how many rebellions your fellowes haue made within these last fiue hundreth yeres how many Princes they haue displaced poisoned and murdered and make no such tragicall exclamations at others for sauing them selues and their innocent families from your cruell and incredible furies Phi. We put you in mind of the Protestants in other Countries because you make so much adoe for one poore commotion in England made in defence of the Catholikes in twentie six yeres of the greatest persecution and tribulation that euer was since the Gothes and the Vandals times Theophi That we had but one commotion in this realme wee may thanke God and not you you did your best by procuring inuasion abroade and ripening rebellion at home to multiplie that one to twentie six twise tolde but that the mightie hand of GOD did alwaies vnioint your deuises Neither make we not so much adoe that you did once rebell but that you still seeke to continue the same by comforting forraine powers to enter the land by disposing the heartes of all Catholikes as you call them within the realme to waite for that day by maintaining and auouching the Popes wicked claime to depose Princes for a point of Christian faith by canonising the Northerne rebels in your open writings for Martyrs by proclaiming as you doe in this booke such warres against the Prince to be Godlie iust and honorable and last of all by resoluing directing and encouraging Parry Somerfield other that with violent hands sought to attempt your soueraignes life These be the things for which we make so much adoe and which if there be but one iote of true religion or obedience in you my masters of Rhemes you would not so
coÌ„prised their politik obseruations as they be for the most part fals passing slaÌ„derous so to their defeÌ„ce are they idle altogether superfluous and argue rather mindes loaden with malice and tongues fraighted with poyson against the present state euen for very temporall and ciuill affaires than anie religious or dutifull respect of authoritie and submission to the Magistrate But such is the doctrine and education of their Romish seminaries they fell first to flattering and because that tooke no place in a rage they be now run to leude and open slaundering An example whereof to him that hath the booke and may read it appeareth as through the the whole so in fewe lines pag. 177. more spitefull wordes than which the rankest caterpiller in Rome could not haue vttered against the state and kingdom where wee liue not touching the persecution which they suffer but obiecting in plaine wordes to the whole body of her Maiesties most honorable most christian Counsel ignominious practises plaguie iniustice yea euen piracies proditions spiâ—ries soule artes to afflict and coosen the world round about vs with many such disloyall vnnaturall vntrue and vnhonest both surmises and reproches whereof that fardle is full This is one of the reasons why I neither might nor would at large refell their Iesuiticall Defence of English Catholikes as they terme it in deede an artificiall inuectiue defacing and slaundering the publike Gouernment of this realme to the vttermost of their powers The other is for that the summe and effect of those chapters which I haue omitted and might not without offence to the state be published are wholy reduced to those principal questions which I haue handled In their first second and fourth chapters their chiefe scopes are these that Manie Priests catholike in England haue bin condemned executed for meere matter of religion that Campian the rest of the Priests condemned executed vpon pretence of treason were neuer yet guiltie of any such crimes but behaued themselues verie discreetly and nothing seditiously in their answeres to the questions of the Bull of Pius Quintus In these the wise Reader soone perceiueth the whole contention toucheth the Popes iurisdiction and claime denied him by the Lawes of this Realme and his power to depriue the Prince of her crowne and scepter which was the sole respect the Bull of Pius Quintus had The iustifying then of these two foundations with cleare and pregnant proofes had beene requisite for the Iesuites if they had purposed to manifest the innocencie of their brethren where nowe by their rhetoricall vagaries inucighing at the partes and circumstances of their inditementes conuictions and executions they storme at the course which the Iudges obserued but saie nothing to the crime wherewith the guiltie were burdened The Popes power to depriue Princes they will say they haue fully proued and so their brethren in trueth and equitie to be cleared If that were so they sayde somewhat but as I haue shewed they profferre it often they neuer proue it And therefore on the contrarie part as I neede not strengthen the publike iudgements of this Realme with the particular reportes behauiors hopes and enterprises of the Iesuites hauing their triall in Courtes of Recorde and places of vsuall and open iustice neither is that incident to my calling or requisite in these cases so for the maine and generall ground of the crime there fastned on them and after punished in theÌ„ which was that to aide assist persuade or defend the Popes Bull depriuing the Prince of her crowne and throne to incourage her Subiectes or enimies on that pretence to rebellion or inuasion was high and hainous treason the trueth I say of this illation is euident by the third part of this my booke where that point of their Defence is refuted So for the rest which would needes venter their liues in the like quarell I meane for inuesting the Pope with the princes sworde the Iesuites should haue brought sound and sufficient proofe that the Pope by Gods lawe hath a Soueraigne and supreme power ouer this Realme to make Lawes to appoint penalties to dispose the goods landes and bodies of Clerkes and others for such causes and crimes as they count spirituall For this is the power which the Pope lately vsurped in this Realme and from which hee is now rightly and orderly repelled by the Lawes of the same It is no treason with vs to make him chiefe Pastour of your soules nor to giue him an Episcopall or Apostolicall authoritie ouer the whole Church though that also bee a wicked and frantike Heresie but to giue him an externall dominion and coerciue iurisdiction ouer this Realme aboue and against the Prince which the Apostles of Christ neither had nor could haue without apparent iniurie to the Magistrate this is it the Execution of iustice doeth duelie respect and this is farre from any matter of faith or religion Right to commaunde and power to compell belong properly to the sworde by the Lawe of God which they can not attribute to the Pope but they must make him a Superiour Magistrate to the prince in guiding and prescribing the vse of the sworde and consequently the prince to holde her sword and scepter at his pleasure and if she refuse to be streightway displaced This wilie conueiaunce to tie Princes swordes fast to the Popes side and to spoyle them of their Crownes if they doe not execute his rage is the chiefest plotte that Iesuites haue at this instant to resettle the kingdome of Antichrist for which they haue not so much as the paring of anie Scripture or Councell or Father in the Church of Christ for a thowsande yeares and yet in our dayes it must bee a meere matter of Religion and the forefront of their brethrens defence But no maruell if they which make open rebellion a point of their faith so soone consent to haue the Popes presumption holden as the surest key of their Religion To their thirde chapter that they haue great cause to complaine of iniust persecution intollerable seueritie and crueltie towardes Catholikes in Englande and wee no reason to doe the like for the iustice as thy call it doone on vs in Queene Maries and other Princes dayes I neede not replie To this conceite of the Iesuites that they may consume whome they will with fire and faggotte and no man must stoppe them of their passage or hinder their pastimes without iniustice and crueltie what shoulde I saie but that I thinâ—e the Scribe was skant waking whiles hee was penning this drowsie Diuinitie What learning I will not aske what witte was in this to make such definitiue resolutions that no Prince may amerce or imprison their adherentes without intollerable seueritie and crueltie forsooth they might hang and burne olde and young men and women for doubting of their Decretalles and all this with prayse though it neuer pleased anie good man in the Catholike Church
your selues and confute your aduersaries but onely the breath of your own mouthes Phi. Wee giue you an oth for our discharge will you not beleeue vs when wee sweare Theo. If wee do it is more of our good meaning than your wel deseruing you dispence so fast with the breach of othes Phi. You misreport vs we do not so Theo. That shal appeare in place conuenient I will not now disgresse from the matter An oth you say we haue to purge al suspition Let vs hear it Phi. The principall of the viage doth protest that he neither ioyned with rebell nor traitor nor any other against the Queene or Realme or traiterously sought or practised to irritate any Prince or potentate to hostility against the same Further inuocating vpoÌ„ his soul that he neither knew saw nor heard during his aboad in the court of Rome of any such writings as are mentioned in the proclamation of Iuly containing certaine articles of confederation of the Pope king of Spaine other Princes for the inuasion of the Realme Theo. We heare you sweare but meane you plainly Phi. Why doubt you that Theo. You teach others wheÌ„ they be called before such as you count heretiks sophisticè iurare sophisticè respoÌ„dere sophistically to swear sophistically to answere that is to mocke the Magistrate with a captious cunning oth or answere And therefore vnlesse you giue vs a preciser strickter oth than this we trust you not You did not traiterously seeke or practise to irritate any Prince or Potentate to hostilitie against the Queene or Realme What needed this addition you sought it not traiterously Your meaning may bee you sought it but lawfully Phi. What fraud you suspect where we meane simply Theo. Then for the better explication of our selues do you thinke it treason for an English man to ioyne with the Pope or any other appointed by him to inuade the Land for the restoring of Religion and execution of the sentence which Pius the fift pronouÌ„ced against her Maiestie Phi. That sentence is extrauagant Theo. Not so For if you count it no treason as we can proue the most part of you do not to obey the Pope deposing the Queene then in your own conceits may you safely sweare you did not these thinges trayterouslie though touching the factes it were certaine you did them Phi. What a compasse you fet to intrap vs Theo. What euasions you get to delude vs but how doth this cleare the rest of your side Phi. Wee bee most assured that no English Catholike woulde or coulde bee the author thereof Theo. It is much to bee sure what euerie man of your faction would or could doe you must bee gods and not men if you can doe that Phi. Wee knowe they woulde not Theo. Leaue this follie you can not search the secretes of other mens heartes nor accompt for their deedes in a matter so impossible the more vehement the more impudent Phi. It verily may bee thought and so is it certaine that some of the principall ministers of the forenamed Princes haue aâ—nswered being demaunded thereof that the Protestantes hauing exercised skill and audacitie in such practises and counterpractises of which Fraunce Flaunders Scotland and other countries haue had so lamentable experience did contriue them to alter her Maiesties accustomed benignitie and mercie towards the Catholickes Theo. It is great pitie that Papistes bee no practisers Aske England Scotland Flaunders Fraunce Spaine Italie Scicile Germanie what practises they haue found I say not in your temporall men but in the Priestes Prelates and Pillours of your Church Righter Macheuels than the Popes them-selues Christendome hath not bred mary this indeede you were alwayes better with poysons and Treasons than with papers and pamflets and yet you spared neither Scriptures Councels nor Fathers but corrupted and enterlaced them to serue your turnes As for the procurers and setters of this late confederacie to assaulte the Realme if you knowe not who they were Charles Paget and others with you can tell or if they would dissemble Throckmorton hath tolde There shall you see whether this were a meere deuise and sleight of ours or a lewde intente and practise of yours These bee the chiefe pointes of your seconde Chapter the rest is lippe-labour and noe waye concerneth your cause Phi. Yes wee prooue it lawfull for men in our case to flie to the Bishoppe of Rome for reliefe either of bodie or soule Theo. Wee bee sure you will saie it with boldnesse enough but will you prooue it Phi. Wee will prooue it Theo. Howe Phi. Whither should wee rather flie than to the head or as Sainct Hierom speaketh to the most secure part of our Catholike communion to the rocke of refuge in doubtfull dayes and doctrines to the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of our soules in earth to the Vicar generall of Christ out of the compasse of whose fold and familie no banishment can bring vs to him that by office and vnction had receiued the grace of loue pitie and compassion to him that counteth no Christian nor domesticall of faith a stranger to him whose Citie and Seat is the natiue home of all true beleeuers and the paterne of all Bishoply hospitalitie and benignitie Theo. Whither nowe Maisters are you well aduised Phi. Why not Theo. You presume that to be most true which is most in question betwixt vs and as if your vnshamefast flatteries were sounde and substantiall verities you conclude without prouing the precedents or respecting the consequent For first what witnesse bring you that the Pope is as you say the head the rocke of refuge in doutful daies doctrines the chiefe Pastor and Bishop of your souls in earth the Vicar generall of Christ or that his seat is the natiue home of all true beleeuers and the whole Church his folde and familie What auncient Father or Councell euer liked or suffered these proude and false titles Why proue you not that which you speake Or why speake you that which you can not proue In so weightie matters do you thinke it enough to saie the worde and by and by wee must hush Phi. Wee haue else-where brought you so manie demonstrations for these thinges that nowe wee take them to bee cleare Theo. Omit these vauntes we aske for proofes and till you bring them by your owne rule we neede frame you no farther answere Phi. Make you merrie with that aduantage but yet Sainct Hierom is not so shifted Theo. His name you set in the forefront to lead on the rable of your vnsauorie speeches but the wordes of Sainct Hierom doe little releeue you For let it be that Athanasius and after him Peter Bishops of Alexandria declining the persecution of the Arian heresie fled to Rome as to the safest port of their communion because Rome was then free from the tumults of Arians so long as Constans liued and readie to receiue such as suffered affliction for
to be subiect or free from the kinges power The people likewise tooke Ieremy when hee had prophesied against them and said thou shalt die the death These places haue perswaded some and might leade Zuinglius to think that the people of Israell notwithstanding they called for a king yet reserued to themselues sufficient authority to ouerrule their king in those thinges which seemed expedient needfull for the publike welfare else God would not punish the people for the kings impietie which they must suffer might not redresse But yet in the 15. of Ieremie there is no such cause pretended their consent rather and zeale to please Manasses in his wickednesse their generall shrinking back from truth so lately professed vnder Ezechias for feare of his cruelty that did next succeede were the causes why God would punish both the king and the Realme For God neuer required of the people to displace their Prince that we can reade but onely that they should rather yeeld their liues than forsake his truth when any tyrant offered to deface his glory Phi. By Zuinglius decision the people may depose the Prince Theo. Zuinglius doth shew the causes for which magistrats may be iustly deplaced by those that haue authoritie to doe it but hee giueth no priuate man leaue to take the sword or offer violence to any Prince though he be a tyrant againe he speaketh of Rulers elected and limited not succeeding and absolute In which ease by the Lawes of sundrie Realmes much is permitted which otherwise may not bee presumed Phi. Nay hee speaketh of all sortes of Princes whether they bee made by succession election or vsurpation Theo. In that Article hee mentioneth them but hee neither resolueth any certainetie of them or alloweth any force to bee vsed against them Of hereditarie succession these be his wordes Mihi ergo compertum non est vnde hoc sit vt regna per successiones quasi per manus posteris tradantur I confesse I haue no skill in this how kingdomes should be deriued to posterity by succession as it were by haÌ„d If then a tyrant chosen by no man get a kingdom by inheritance which hath his foundation I know not how ferre hunc oportet sed quomodo imperitabit he must be indured but how shall he gouern His answere is Regnum aliquo sapiente administranduÌ„ erit the kingdom must be gouerned by some wise maÌ„ that shal assist him If a tyrant succeeding may not be repelled from his inheritance but suffered and assâ—sted then by this confession may he not be deposed And that no violence may be vsed to any Prince promoted by succession or election his words are plaine Disputing quo pacto mouendus sit officio by what means a magistrat may be displaced he saith Non est vt eum trucides nec vt belluÌ„ tumultis quis exitet quia in pace vocauit nos Deus Thou maist not kil him nor leauie warre or any tumult against him because God hath called vs in peace Phi. How then shal he be displaced since no Prince will yeeld his crown without force Theo. He answereth hic iam labor est this is the difficulty but his coÌ„ceit is that they which chose him should denouÌ„ce him vnfit to weare the crown if he yeeld it is wel if not they must offer their liues in so good a cause as to dy for iustice truth Phi. In faith that were folly first to prouoke a tyraÌ„t with depriuatioÌ„ after to lay down their necks to his furie The. Yet that is his resolution for he addeth Qui hoc ferre noÌ„ possunt ferant insolenteÌ„ tyrannuÌ„ They that caÌ„ not abide to die for the defence of iustice let theÌ„ tolerate the pride of the tyraÌ„t Phi. Are you of that minde Theo. You are not to seeke after al our reasoning what I thinke I haue meetely well repeated it And as for Zuinglius though he measure all Nations by the Germanes proportion other kingdomes to the Empire in that respect speake somwhat strangely yet he iustifieth no tumult against a tyrant much lesse rebellion against lawfull and absolute Princes which is the case at this instant in question betwixt vs. That touching rebellion now for succession as I muse at his wordes so I like not his iudgement when he saith he can not tell whence it is that kingdoms should go by successioÌ„ The Romane Empire it self from Constantine the great and before till the time of Otho the third that is 700. yeares and vpward went by successioÌ„ saue where the right lines failed or seditioÌ„ disturbed the heire The greatest kingdomes of the West partes as Fraunce England Spaine Scotland and others haue alwayes gone by succession since they were diuided from the Empire and neuer by election The like I might say almost of all prophane kingdoms and Monarchies where not election but successioÌ„ hath preuailed But omit them God him selfe gaue this to Dauid as a great blessing of the fruit of thy body will I set vpon thy throne this was it which was denied to Saull for reuenge of his disobedience Thou hast done foolishly for the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israel for euer All the recompence which Iehu had for his zealous seruice was this Because thou hast deligently executed that which was right in mine eies therefore shall thy sonnes vnto the fourth generation sit on the throne of Israell So that succession in kingdoms hath not only the consent of al ages Nations but the manifest subscription of God himself that it is his speciall fauor blessing to continue the successions of godly Princes Phi. And what our english Protestantes write or thinke of this matter you shal well perceiue by their opinion and high approbation of Wiats rebellion in Queene Maries dayes wherof one of your chiefe Ministers called GoodmaÌ„ thus speaketh in his treatise intituled How superiour Magistrates ought to be obeyed Wiat did but his duty and it was the duty of all others that professe the Gospell to haue risen with him maintenance of the same His cause was iust and they all were traytours that tooke not part with him O noble Wyat thou art nowe with God and those worthy men that died for that happie interprise Theo. It is much that you measure the whole Realme by one mans mouth and more that you drawe the wordes which he spake from the meaning which he had to warrant your rebellions The partie which you name at the time wheÌ„ he wrote tooke Queene Mary for no lawful Prince which particular and false supposal beguiled him made him thinke the better of Wyats war but our question is of lawful Princes not of violent intruders And therefore Goodmans opinion which himselfe hath long since disliked is no way seruice-able for your seditions Ph. Hold you Queene Mary for an intruder Theo. Not I but he
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
specifie For Christ said take ye eate ye which in their priuate Masses your Priestes doe not and for that cause euerie such Masse is a manifest contempt of Christes wordes and deedes confessed and rehearsed by your owne mouthes at the altar as partes of his institution Phi. The Catholike church onely by Christes spirit can tell which thinges are imitable which not in al his actions The. When himself hath appointed what actions of his he will haue to be followed the church is bound to obey not licenced to make her choise But in this case the church of christ hath faithfully done her duty For she alwayes obserued these actions of Christ her Lord and master and verified his wordes till Antichrist with pride and power came to take vp his seat in the middest of her and to proportion all religion to his vnsounde and deceiued affection Phi. Is the catholike church in this point with you Theo. Yea and against you mightily The canons as you terme them Apostolicall prohibit your priuat Masse Whosoeuer of the faithfull enter the church heare the scriptures read if they stay not out praiers receiue the sacred communion let them as peruerters of ecclesiasticall order bee put from the communion Which words the councell of Antioch repeateth and confirmeth as agreeable to Christian discipline in their dayes Reade the church seruice which as you tell vs Iames Basill and Chrysostom coâ—posed you shall finde them publike communions not priuate masses read what Dionysius S. Pauls schâ—ler as you beare men in hand and Iustinus the martyr report of the â—â—â—â—tration of the Lords Sâ—pper in their daies This is the generall and catholike description and order of the diuine mysteries saith Dionysius that first the minister himself receiueth then imparteth the same to others Towards the end of our praiers â—aith Iustinus we salute one an other with a kisse after that bread and a cup of wine delaied with water are brought to him that hath charge ouer his brethren which he taketh and giueth thankes to the father of all through the sonne and holy Ghost his praier and thankes all the people standing by confirme with answering Amen then those which are called with vs Deacons giue euery man that is present of the bread and wine tempered with water and carie the same to such as are absent This I trowe resembleth our communion not your priuat masse this without controuersie was the catholike and Apostelike maner of solemnizing the Lordes Supper in the Primatiue church Yea the church of Rome which you woulde seeme so much to reuerence withstood this your profanation of the Lordes supper a long time with maruelous zeale Consecration ended saith Pope Calixtus let all communicate that will not stand excommunicated for so the Apostles determined and the holy Romane church obserueth The maner of the whole church in Pope Gregories time 600. yeares after Christ was for a Deacon to crie to the people Si quis non communicet det locum he that mindeth not to communicate let him auoide Pope Martine willed him to be cast out of the catholike church which entered the church of God and with held himselfe from the communion of the Sacrament Charles the Emperour 800. yeares after Christ gaue commaundement vt omnes fideles communicent ad Missas perexpectent sine alâ—a depraedicatione that all the faithfull should communicate and looke at masse so to do without other warning What need we farther proofe in a case so manifest your owne fellowes confesse no lesse In the primatiue church saith Durandus all that were present at the celebration of the Masse did euery day coÌ„municate Their oblation was a great loafe sufficient for al which the Grecians are said to continue to this day So that both the wordes of Christs institution the traditioÌ„ of the primatiue church directly refute your priuate Masses and proue the communion now vsed in the church of England to be good and catholike The Lordes supper saith Chrysostom ought to bee common For such thinges as are the Lords belong not to this or to that seruant but are commoÌ„ to all If then it be the Lords as in deed it is thou shouldst not take it as thine owne to thy selfe but propose it to all in common as being the Lordes Thou doest not suffer it to be the Lords wheÌ„ thou doest not suffer it to be coÌ„moÌ„ but eatest it thy selfe Paul calleth it the Lords supper which is receiued in common with one consent of all assembled together for vntill all communicate be partakers of that spiritual food the mysteries once set foorth are not taken away but the priests standing still stay for all yea for the poorest of all So Theodoret The Lords table is equally proposed vnto al meÌ„ of that supper all are partakers alike And Haymo The Sacrament of christs body is called a supper by reason of the communion because it ought to be common to all the faithfull and iust If this doctrine be true as there can be no question of it then are your priuat Masses far from Christs institution as far from the catholike order of Christs church which suffered no man to bee present at the time of the diuine mysteries but such as would did participate sending the rest away that could not be partakers of the Lords table And this the very name of your Masse as I haue proued doth shew signifieng the demising of all such as might not communicate which if you should do in your priuat Masses you should leaue an empty church yea the priests must take paines to serue answere himselfe since no man besides the priest hath any part of that banquet which Christ prouided for all and bequeathed vnto all to bee the monument of his passion and pleadge of their saluation With like rashnes you take from the people when you do admit them once a yeare to their rightes as you call it the cup which should be to them the communion of the Lordes blood Drinke ye all of this sayth our Sauiour and diuide it mongst you These words you repeate for a shew but you falsifie them in sense For you suffer no lay-man to tast of the Lords cup as if one part of this mystery were sufficient the rest superfluous or you might dispence with christs institution at your pleasure Phi. Christ spake that to such as were Priests not vnto the lay people The. Doth your conscience serue you Philander to play the wanton in so great and deepe mysteries of christian religion To whom then were these words spoken take ye eate ye not to the selfesame parties to whom it was said Drinke ye If none may drinke but priests because the disciples which dranke were Priests then by the same logike none should eate but priests because neither time place nor persons were chaunged betweene these two
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to