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england_n	french_a	king_n	league_n	4,990	5	9.4199	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A40488	A friendly debate between Dr. Kingsman, a dissatisfied clergy-man, and Gratianus Trimmer, a neighbour minister concerning the late thanksgiving-day, the Prince's desent [sic] into England, the nobility and gentries joining with him, the acts of the honourable convention, the nature of our English government, the secret league with France, the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, &c. : with some considerations on Bishop Sanderson and Dr. Falkner about monarchy, oaths, &c. ... / by a minister of the Church of England.	Kingsman, Dr.; Minister of the Church of England.; Trimmer, Gratianus.	1689 (1689)	Wing F2218; ESTC R18348	69,303	83

Eyes have been opened to see the tendency of Affairs we can think no less and have good Authority for what we say Godliness and Honesty with Quietness and Peace is the desire of our Souls And Doctor do not Grumble Let not your Eye be Evil because God is Good. What! hate Popery and oppose the King's Declaration and now hanker after your King whom you cannot have without Popery if he were not shut out K. Conscience and Allegiance T. It is well the power of Conscience is at least acknowledged Conscience was Fanaticism a great while and a religious Pretence for Rebellion and the worst of Actions I wish you a well-setled enlightned Conscience And for your Allegiance pay it where it is now due by God's Providence to a Wonder by the Laws of the Land we have God the Laws King Queen and Parliament for us Come down down Doctor soft and fair there are a pair of Stairs from your coming down from you Pinacles who had never got up had you not been better at flying up than orderly Motions and leisurely Ascents Take your share of a happy Peace and be glad you are not forced by an Act of Parliament to renounce your Allegiance to your deceased King as the Non-Cons were to renounce the Covenant Preach Peace and perswade the Gentlemen of the Swear and the Sword to be thankful they came off so well and were not kill'd and damn'd at on Day according to their Atheistical Wishes for God was against them the Prince of Orange was Ordained of God to be Victor and now King. But Sir I perceive your Colour comes I will therefore dismiss you calmly Live in Peace and Love Do the Work and Will of God and so farewel The God of Peace go with you An After-Debate Of the Original Contract P. W. Convention And no Allegiance due to the late King. K. I Am come again to visit you and to shew you something that 's worth your reading and consideration too There are some things for you to chew upon T. You are very welcome to me at all times who desire a fairness and friendship with you and if there be a scuffle of Notions let us labour to prevent the drawing of Blood and bringing in Popery and Misery about our Ears There are a new Sect of Seminaries sculking and haunting up and down sowing their Discontents and ill Nature under the Name of Loyalty and Religion but the best is their Notions are like heated Corn chitted in their Brains that I hope they will not grow nor come up so tall as to hide a Rebel in Well but Sir what have you to shew me K. Here 's and ingenious Paper called The Desertion Discuss'd in a Letter to a Country Gentleman T. I will peruse it and deal with it as I find it or as I am able And though you think me prepossest yet I am as willing to sind out Truth as any of you can be Let us read him together and be pleased to insist upon what you think most material in him K. I think it is all material and well penn'd T. If it be so material I were best leave him to be handled by the Author of the Enquiry into the Present State of Affairs whom he takes into his hands to discuss And if the Bones of his Subject will bear Discussion without breaking or disjointing he will sleep the better in a bad Lodging If any thing be left out by me think not the Paper unanswerable for I do not intend a Discussion of him 1. How saith the Gentleman to him Can the Seat of Government be empty while the King who all grant had an unquestionable Title is still living and his Absence forced and involuntary Here are Suppositions imply'd that should first be proved As 1. A King once supposed to have a good Title must needs have it during Life 2. That during a King's natural Life the Throne cannot be empty 3. Tho it is true in a sense that the King's Absence be Involuntary so in a sense it was Voluntary It was a mixt Action and the Reasons for his leaving the Kingdom are not altogether unknown and whatever the Necessity was his Counsellors and Friends the Papists with his own Affection to that Interest which God hath crost for the present and such as you acting contrary to God are active to restore brought upon him In Answer to the Gentleman's Question drawn up by himself he saith The Gentlemen of the Convention who declare a Vacancy in the Government lay the main stress of their Opinion upon his Majesty's withdrawing himself For now especially since the Story of the French League and the Business of the Prince of Wales are past over in silence most Men believe that the pretended Breach of that which they call the Original Contract was design'd for no more than a Popular Flourish I confess to you Doctor these Lines are very material of each branch I 'le crop a little 1. The Noblemen and Gentlemen of the Convention who had the Personal Majesty lodged in them in a high degree and that as they were a Convention entrusted to act for the Community of England did doubtless lay a great stress for their Judgment upon that which is more than the Opinion of the Gentlemen as he calls them But the foregoing Actions of the King terminated in that first Act had their share in influencing that Publick Reason so to judg The Story of the French League is past in silence No Sir that which you and your Fellow-Rockers of the soft-headed Disciples call a Story is not past away in silence yet A Story you 'd make it as if all this Action was begotten by a Story or two or three Fictions I shall not without Authority relate what I have heard of that Story But I build my belief of a designed Mischief upon Publick Evidence and undeniable by adding a little use of Reason to it My Evidence riseth out of Coleman's Letters Letter to Sir W. Throckmorton Feb. 1. 74 / 5. For you well know that when the Duke the late King James come to be Master of our Affairs Joint Interest with France the King of France will have reason to promise himself all things that he can desire For according to the Mind of the Duke the Interests of the King of England the King of France and his own are so close bound up together that it is impossible to separate them the one from the other without Ruin to all three but being joined they must notwithstanding all opposition become invincible Letter to Mons le Cheese The King of France esteemed his Interest and the Interest of his R. H. to be the same p. 110. and that if his Royal Highness would endeavour to dissolve the Parliament his Majesty King of France would assist him with his Power and Purse to have such a new One as would be for their purpose His Royal Highness was convinced their Interests were both one A

The Publisher to the Reader THese Papers were sent me by a very Worthy Divine of the Church of England Upon the perusal of which I found with submission to better Judgments the late and present Proceedings so well vindicated and all Scruples arising from the alteration of Affairs so well answered that I judg it would be very injurious to the Publick tho the Author through his great Modesty hath mean thoughts of his own Performances if I should have returned them to be buried in a Desk I know indeed several Treatises have been published of late with great Judgment and Satisfaction on several Points here handled particularly about the Old and New Oaths but none as I know of have gathered together all the Parts of the great Revolutions in England and represented them in their true Colours as is performed in this Friendly Debate to the great satisfaction of all that are truly sensible and even to the Conviction of such among us who earnestly invited the Deliverer our present King William but now very ungratefully reject that Deliverance of which God hath made him a Glorious Instrument A Friendly Debate BETWEEN Dr. Kingsman a Dissatisfied Clergy-man AND Gratianus Trimmer a Neighbour Minister CONCERNING The late Thanksgiving-Day the Prince's Desent into England the Nobility and Gentries joining with him the Acts of the Honourable Convention the Nature of our English Government the Secret League with France the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy c. With some Considerations on Bishop Sanderson and Dr. Falkner about Monarchy Oaths c. Written for the Satisfaction of some of the Clergy and others that yet labour under Scruples By a Minister of the Church of England LONDON Printed for Ionathan Robinson at the Golden Lion in St. Paul's Church-Yard MDCLXXXIX A FRIENDLY DEBATE BETWEEN Dr. KING'S-MAN AND GRATIANUS TRIMMER About the THANKS GIVING-DAY c. King's-Man GOod Morrow to you Sir I am come to see you this Monday Morning to Recreate my self with you hoping to find you to Day at leisure to discourse Trimmer Sir I am glad to see you here a Sign that the Times are come about or else I should not have thought of such a Favour from you And I am glad to hear you use the Word Recreate a good sign that you took Pains Yesterday that you desire Recreation to Day I pray Sir be pleased to take a Chair I was just now thinking what Text to preach upon next Thursday the Thanksgiving-Day K. Had you any Legal Notice of it or Orders from the Bishop T. No Sir but I hear there is a Book come to Mr. of and tho they care not for the Service I look'd for one from the Apparitor for the sake of the Shilling K. And did you give notice of it in the Church T. Yes K. And what Text have you thought on T. I have thought of those Words Judges 5.9 My Heart is toward the Governours of Israel that offered themselves willingly among the People Bless ye the Lord. But I may pitch upon another K. Is not that in the same Chapter with that Rebellious Text Curse ye Meroz T. Yea it is But I thought there had been never a Rebellious Text in Scripture K. No And therefore it will be hard for you to find one for a Thanksgiving on this Occasion T. Why so Do you think Rebellion to be the occasion of this Thanksgiving But if there were such a bad Text in the Word of God I would find a better for this Occasion K. I thought what the Whiggs and Trimmers would at last bring us to T. So you see indeed that the Trimmers the finest Nick-name that was ever given to honest Men that were for the settlement of Affairs on the truest bottom have brought the Boat to a sight of Land and I wish it well at Home in the Haven of Rest and Peace But do you know whither you were going in the Royal James hanging out the Flags of Loyalty and by an Arbitrary Power against all Law pressing all the Vessels in the River to carry the Pope and Cardinals to visit England with all their Stuff and Merchandize and to command all that would not go passively to lower and strike Flag to you or else to be sunk K. But you do not blame us for our Loyalty do ye The Church of England and her Friends have been ever Loyal And it is her Honour which she hath never prostituted yet whatever other Reformed Churches have done that Honour of Loyalty is peculiar to our Church T. No I do not blame you for Loyalty in the truest Notion of it which the Trimmer understands better than any of you His Notion of it is that Loyalty is Duty and Obedience according to Law. And as for the Glory of the Church of England as it is called and said to be peculiar to her I do think her Sisters beyond-Sea are as honest as she and whatever your Mother is some of you her Sons have got no Honour by making Court to the Mother of Harlots And they who can disparage their Aunts abroad or disown them as no Sister-Churches because they have not Lords for their Husbands and wear not the same Dresses do not consult the Honour of their own Mother And I doubt they will have but few Friends left 'em who abandon them as no Friends to the Church who have appeared in this Cause But because you are so civil as to give me a Visit I will not displease you by a rehersal of the famous Actions of Loyalty and Heats or ingenious Discourses of Government produced by your Friends As you were very near to be destroyed with us by your over officiousness so I am abraid your ill tempered Loyalty will prove pernicious to some and that you will yet endanger all by that kind of Loyalty which some have called a principal Article of Religion Loyalty is one of the prime Duties of the Fifth Commandment and it relates to an object Duty placed and to a Rule plainly determined I will be Loyal to a Popish King but if I may not have the King but I must be in danger of being corrupted by Popery or suffering to extremity by it I think I have cause to adore the Providence which hath delivered me from both without Blood and Destruction upon Destruction If the King had kept his Religion to Himself tho he made the worst choice and not gone about to impose it and set it up upon the Ruine of the Government He might have governed the Kingdom in Peace and Honour But it being out of his own Power since he subjected himself to the Conduct of the most Pestilent Society in the World to have his Faith to Himself without forcing it upon his unwilling Subjects you can never preserve the Virgin Virtue of Loyalty from being guilty of commiting Folly in England And so being Loyal to the King as you call it you are Disloyal to Christ the Supream Head of the Church and treacherous to

cannot say that the Superiority of the Pope over Kings is of the Law of Nature if not then that King that is Superior above all in his Dominions by the Law of Nature and yet doth subject himself to the Pope doth give up his Natural Right to one that hath no Natural Right and doth thereby violate and change the Constitution of Nature and therefore hath lost His Claim to a Soveraignty by Nature K. But the Scripture doth establish the Order and Superiority of Kings and therefore he holds his Crown and Scepter by Scripture-Patent and Divine Right Can. 1640. T. I ask you again Doctor Is the Supremacy of the Pope over Kings by Divine Right if over Kings by Divine Right then much more over you and me if you grant it so will not I But he hath no Divine right to a Supremacy over Kings and yet the King hath Submitted to it therefore hath he not lost and forfeited his Pretence to Soveraignty by Scripture and Divine Right and by consequence hath he any Right to Soveraign Dominion I put it to you Beside the Scripture doth constitute a perpetual form of Government K. But your supposed Wrong is a wrong to Himself And our Relation of Subjects to him is unalterable and perpetual T. You are out again by your favour as I conceive with respect to your dignity For the Wrong is a Publick and General Wrong to all his Protestants Subjects and not a private Injury to Himself onely The Relation of Subjects to the King. Our relation as Subjects is to a King and we are Subjects no longer than he is King as we are no longer Children than we have Parents if he cease to be a King by Subjection to the Pope I am discharged from being a Subject for I am a Subject to the King and not to him who is no King or hath made Himself none My relation to the King is to a Royal Person vested with Royal Authority and the Law of the Land is the Measure and Bond of that Relation If the Person to whom I am related have disrobed Himself of his Royalty tho the Natural Person be in Being yet the King is gone as Sir Thomas More said the Lord Chancellor is gone when his Person was there present but out of his Office. K. But how then came the Peers and People of England to acknowledge him at his Coronation and in Parliament if his Religion and Submission to the Pope made him none T. Sir I did not at first intend to speak of these tender points but you began it and I hope you will not make an ill use of it I give you my answer clearly 1. The Peers and People own'd him as King at his Coronation for then he swore or was thought to swear to govern by Laws 2. In Parliament if that may be called a Parliament who had a great Number that were not Elected by the Commons but returned by Arbitrary Sheriffs and Mayors he appear'd in his Legal Capacity acting according to Law. 3. The Peers and People suffered quietly and dutifully till their Consciences could bear no more or their Heads Families and Posterity were near Destruction There was all Dutifulness and Loyalty Tribute and Customs paid him by all Ranks and Degrees of Men as long as there was any Hopes 6. As he altered the Government in his own personal Dignity so he manifestly destroy'd the other part of the Constitution the Right and Liberty of the People in free Elections and frequent Parliaments and so no part of the Government was safe 7. And to entail our Miseries there was an Infant set up for Inheriter of the Crown of whose Natural Descent no legal Proof was made or can be as is rationally presum'd And by the way the King could not be safe but during the pleasure of the Jesuits who having an Infant King and who could raise a Succession as fast as one died could domineer the more and send the King to the other World. The Nation passive as long as there was any hope of Redress 8. There was no hope left of Redress of present Grievances or prevention of utter ruine to the Protestant Interest of the Kingdom And consider that these things were not personal Infirmities and Defects or Male-Administrations or private Injuries and Oppression But the greatest Violation of Trust and Breach of the Constitution that was ever avowedly made growing hard upon a down-right overthrow and utter Ruine 9. Lastly There was a Destructive Conjunction of Interest and Design with a Foraign Tyrant to bring us and our dearest Relations into like Condition with France and Savoy Were not the French Assistances expected to turn beautiful England to an Aceldama What made the Priest in the Lady Cary's House conclude the Dutch Fleet to be their Friends the French for whose Entertainment great Provisions were made and to go to the Chappel to Sing Te Deum Sir We have as great Cause to keep every day of November as a Thanksgiving as we have to keep the 5th now challenging our Thanksgiving to all Generations for our Deliverance from the Powder Plot and League with France by the most Happy Seasonable and Successful Arrival of his Highness the Prince of Orange now our Elected King. Whom God long Preserve With his Royal Consort now our Gracious Queen And now Sir Be pleas'd to speak what would you have us do K. The Christian Course is well known Petitions Prayers Patience Tears T. As for Petitions you know the King sent the Bishops to the Tower for an Answer and thence brought them to the Bar. A warning to Petitioners Prayers were used by such as you know rather to harden than soften the King's Heart Was he not commended to God still as his chosen Servant Was he not pray'd for as if he had worshipped God in the best and only way and several other Prayers little better As for Patience it was exercised to the last Day of Safety And as for Tears we durst not shed them for the King nor for our selves under him for by Innuendo's they had been Seditious What! keep an Anniversary of Joy for his coming to the Throne and weep too We had cause more than we knew of a long time to weep and howl too for the Miseries that were coming upon us Had not God most seasonably and powerfully turn'd the Stream of the Proceedings of our Adversarics all England that would not bow the Knee to Baal had been a Bochim a Vale of Tears How useful and divine soever this Persuasion to Prayers and Tears may be yet when I consider for whose Service these Exhortations were so openly made even for theirs tho not so intended who have the sharpest Bryars and Thorns to whip Slaves into Tears and then put an end to their Praying by cutting their Throats much of that Preaching might have been spared There are many Evangelical Doctrines necessary to Salvation rarely touch't upon by such Preachers I do much wish

there were Streams of penitent Tears ruuning from our Eyes and more fervant Prayers of the Righteous sent up to Heaven But notwithstanding the great Scarcity of both I think it a great Duty to give thanks to God for delivering us from the Hands of our Enemies K. You do not know but the King's Heart might be changed He did a great deal in a little time for the Satisfaction of the People in restoring Charters and declaring he would Call a Parliament and offered Pardons to his Enemies T. We know these Acts of Grace and when they were made publick Of these see the Sence of the Prince of Orange in his Declaration What if the Counsellors and Tools advised these Acts to Cast us into a sleep and to gain time for French Preparations You may see what the Nation did and what Methods of Proceedings were used What Methods were used for our Preservation 1. Many of our Peers and Gentlemen of Honour and Interest first represented the State of the Kingdom to the Heirs Expectant of the Crown and therein declared That their Hignesses if no Prince be born to the King have an unquestionable Right to defend the Legal Monarchy Rege etiam renitente That the People of England have an Unquestionable Right to seek Assistance from their Royal Highnesses Our Case stated on the Nations part That the Ancient Kings of England acknowledged the Peoples Right to save their Free Government c. See the Memorial p. 26 c. If the Prince and Princess have Right to defend Note this and the People of England a Right to seek that Defence wherein doth the Iniquity of both or of either appear especially considering the Nominal Prince of Wales being not an undoubted Heir Our Case stated on the Prince of Orange's part 2. The Prince and Princess timely dealt with the King in a most dutiful manner proposing Expedients to compose and settle the Nation as appears by Pensioner Fagel's Letter and Vindication But the Contrivers of our Ruine both in Soul and Body proceeding to obstruct all healing Methods His Highness put forth his pious and just Declaration of his Reasons and Intentions to come over into England The Reflections upon it are very wordy and weak See the Declaration 3. If the Prince of Orange had no Interest by proximity of Blood to seek the Preservation of the Church and Kingdom Why might not he come over to us as righteously to deliver us as Our former Kings and Queen Elizabeth have assisted forreign Protestant States and Sufferers by Money and Arms 4. The Miseries of the Protestants in France and Savoy and the Dangers which threatned all Protestant Kingdoms and Sates by the Power and Blood-thirstiness of France and the Popish Confederates awakened Protestant Kings and Princes to prevent the Desosolation of their Countries and Religion to enter into a League and to begin with England to rescue it from its growing Perils and to settle the State of it as knowing what an Influence its Preservation or Destruction would have upon Countries of the same Profession And his Highness the Prince being so deeply engaged in that League he must as a Christian prefer the Glory of Christ before all Obligations of Relation as a Son and a Nephew Yet still performing all the Duties of that Relation in which he hath not been wanting as far as is consistent with the Common Cause and Interest And respect to the Common Protestant Interest and Engagement prevail'd with his Highness the Prince of Denmark to go over to the Prince of Orange as he professeth in his Letter to the King. 5. The Prince in his Declaration invited All Degrees and Orders of Men in the Kingdom to come in and joyn with him to promote his Ends in getting a Free Parliament to which he refers Himself and the Settlement of Church and State. Should the Nobility and Gentry look on and see him ready to Fight in their Defence and give him no Assistance K. Yes certainly for they ought not to assist an Invader against their King. T. The Case stated resteth upon this as one chief Pillar If they have right to relate their Grievances and Pressures and to call him to their Rescue there being no other way left for them and if he have Right and Interest in England which he cannot give up for lost and if that which he desires is neither Crown nor Conquest but the Preservation of the Government in a lawful Parliamentary-way then the Invasion is not the Invasion of an Enemy but the coming in of a Saviour to deliver us That the People of England have right to defend their Government they prove in the Memorial quoted before K. But do not you know that Private Persons are not fit Judges whether their Present Case be such in which they may lawfully resist or no T. I remember something to that purpose in Dr. Falkner Christian Loyalty Book 2. p. 365. p. 373. and he quotes the more Corrected Judgment of Grotius differing from what he had written in his younger Time upon Mat. 26. But Are the wisest Noblemen Gentry and Lawyers of the Land unfit to Judg of this Case Doth their incapacity to judge rise from the Privacy of their Condition or what else A private Man well studied in the Laws and Constitution is as able to judge when that is Uiolated as more Publick Persons and a good Lawyer in his Study knows the Law as well as many a Judg upon the Bench. Besides I distinguish between a particular private Man The Nobles and Gentry who appeared in this Action not meer private Men. or more sustaining private Injuries or Oppressions or some lesser Bodies and Corporations and the Community of the whole Kingdom They who have appeared for the Prince of Orange are by far the Majority of the whole Kingdom and men of as great Understandings as any of those who drove them to this Course This Resistance was not in a private Cause but the Essentials of the Government and Concern of the Kingdom And therefore what the Doctor saith and quoteth out of Grotius is nothing to our Case And for a fuller understanding of our Case I pray Sir remember what the King did Our Case opened on the Kings ●… part The Prince and Majority of the Kingdom declare for a Free Parliament for the Protestant Religion and for the Laws and Government by Law. Can any King that is a King by Law sworn and obliged by Promises to govern by Law refuse to grant what the Kingdom desires But He on the Contrary 1. Prepares a Royal Navy increaseth his standing Army calling in many thousands of Popish Irish and of Scots tho not all Papists yet as he thought for his purpose 2. Tho he declared he would summon a free Parliament yet he sent out but few Writs which came to nothing 3. He prepares to defend his Cause and to oppose the Prince and Kingdom by the Sword Whereas if