have the full benefit of those Constitutions which were made by our Ancestors for our safe and orderly living our Government is upon a right Basis therefore we must enquire into the Cause why our Laws are not executed when you have found and taken away that Cause all is well The Cause can be no other than this That the King is told and does believe that most of these great Charters or Rights of the people of which we now chiefly treat are against his Majesties Interest though this be very false as has been said yet we will not dispute it at this time but take it for granted so that the King having the Supreme execution of the Laws in his hand cannot be reasonably supposed to be willing to execute them whenever he can chuse whether he will do it or no it being natural for every man not to do any thing against his own Interest when he can help it now when you have thought well what it should be that gives the King a Liberty to chuse whether any part of the Law shall be currant or no you will find that it is the great Power the King enjoys in the Government when the Parliament hath discovered this they will no doubt demand of his Majesty an abatement of his Royal Prerogative in those matters only which concern our enjoyment of our All that is our Lives Liberties and Estates and leave his Royal Power entire and untoucht in all the other branches of it when this is done we shall be as if some great Heroe had performed the adventure of dissolving the Inchantment we have been under so many years And all our Statutes from the highest to the lowest from Magna Charta to that for burying in Woollen will be current and we shall neither fear the bringing in Popery nor Arbitrary Power in the Intervals of Parliament neither will there be any Dissentions in them all Causes of Factions between the Country and Court-party being entirely abolisht so that the People shall have no reason to distrust their Prince nor he them Doct. You make us a fine Golden Age but after all this will you not be pleased to shew us a small prospect of this Canaan or Country of rest will you not vouchsafe to particularize a little what Powers there are in the King which you would have discontinued would you have such Prerogatives abolished or placed elsewhere Eng. Gent. There can be no Government if they be abolished But I will not be like a Man who refuses to sing amongst his Friends at their entreaty because he has an ill Voice I will rather suffer my self to be laught at by you in delivering my small Judgment in this Matter but still with this protestation that I do believe that an Infinity of Men better qualifi'd than my self for such sublime Matters and much more the House of Commons who represent the Wisdom as well as the Power of this Kingdom may find out a far better way than my poor parts and Capacity can suggest The powers then which now being in the Crown do hinder the execution of our Laws and prevent by consequence our happiness and settlement are four The absolute power of making War and peace Treaties and Alliances with all Nations in the World by which means by Ignorant Councellours or Wicked Ministers many of our former Kings have made Confederations and Wars very contrary and destructive to the Interest of England and by the unfortunate management of them have often put the Kingdom in great hazard of Invasion Besides that as long as there is a distinction made between the Court-party and that of the Country there will ever be a Jealousie in the people that those wicked Councellours who may think they can be safe no other way will make Alliances with powerful Princes in which there may be a secret Article by which those Princes shall stipulate to assist them with Forces upon a short warning to curb the Parliament and possibly to change the Government And this apprehension in the People will be the less unreasonable because Oliver Cromwel the great Pattern of some of our Courtiers is notoriously known to have Inserted an Article in his Treaty with Cardinal Mazzarin during this King of France's Minority That he should be assisted with ten thousand Men from France upon occasion to preserve and defend him in his Usurped Government against His Majesty that now is or the People of England or in fine his own Army whose revolt he often feared The Second great Prerogative the King enjoys is the sole Disposal and Ordering of the Militia by Sea and Land Raising Forces Garisoning and Fortifying places Setting out Ships of War so far as he can do all this without putting Taxations upon the People and this not only in the Intervals of Parliament but even during their Session so that they cannot raise the Train-bands of the Country or City to Guard themselves or secure the Peace of the Kingdom The third point is That it is in His Majesties Power to Nominate and Appoint as he pleases and for what time he thinks fit all the Officers of the Kingdom that are of Trust or profit both Civil Military and Ecclesiastical as they will be called except where there is Jus Patronatus These two last Powers may furnish a Prince who will hearken to ill designing Councellours with the means either of Invading the Government by Force or by his Judges and other Creatures undermining it by Fraud Especially by enjoying the Fourth Advantage which is the Laying out and Imploying as he pleases all the Publick Revenues of the Crown or Kingdom and that without having any regard except he thinks fit to the necessity of the Navy or any other thing that concerns the Safety of the Publick So that all these Four great Powers as things now stand may be adoperated at any time as well to destroy and ruine the good Order and Government of the State as to preserve and support it as they ought to do Nob. Ven. But if you divest the King of these Powers will you have the Parliament sit always to Govern these Matters Eng. Gent. Sir I would not divest the King of them much less would I have the Parliament assume them or perpetuate their Sitting They are a Body more fitted to make Laws and punish the Breakers of them than to execute them I would have them therefore petition His Majesty by way of Bill that he will please to exercise these four great Magnalia of Government with the Consent of four several Councils to be appointed for that end and not otherwise that is with the Consent of the Major part of them if any of them dissent In all which Councils His Majesty or who he pleases to appoint shall preside the Councils to be named in Parliament first all the number and every Year afterwards a third part So each Year a third part shall go out and a Recruit of an equal number come
and Mr. Attwood of grays-Inne being Gentlemen whom I do mention honoris causa and really they deserve to be honor'd that they will spare some time from the Mechanical part of their Callings which is to assist Clients with Counsel and to plead their Causes and which I acknowledg likewise to be honourable to study the true Interest of their Country and to show how ancient the Rights of the People in England are and that in a time when neither Profit nor Countenance can be hop'd for from so ingenious an undertaking But I beg pardon for the deviation Of the three branches of Soveraign Power which Politicians mention which are Enacting Laws Levying of Taxes and making War and Peace the two first of them are indisputably in the Parliament and when I say Parliament I ever intend with the King The last has been usually exercis'd by the Prince if he can do it with his own Money yet because even in that Case it may be ruinous to the Kingdom by exposing it to an Invasion many have affirmed that such a Power cannot be by the true and ancient free Government of England supposed to be Intrusted in the hands of one man And therefore we see in divers Kings Reigns the Parliament has been Consulted and their advice taken in those matters that have either concerned War or Leagues And that if it has been omitted Addresses have been made to the king by Parliaments either to make war or peace according to what they thought profitable to the publick So that I will not determine whether that power which draws such consequences after it be by the genuine sence of our Laws in the Prince or no although I know of no Statute or written Record which makes it otherwise That which is undoubtedly the Kings Right or prerogative is to Call and Dissolve Parliaments to preside in them to approve of all Acts made by them and to put in Execution as Supream or Soveraign Magistrate in the Intervals of Parliaments and during their Sitting all Laws made by them as also the Common Law for which Cause he has the nomination of all Inferiour Officers and Ministers under him excepting such as by Law or Charter are eligible otherwise and the Power of the Sword to force Obedience to the Judgements given both in Criminal and Civil Causes Doct. Sir You have made us a very absolute Prince what have we left us if the King have all this Power what do our Liberties or Rights signifie whenever he pleases Eng. Gent. This Objection Doctor makes good what I said before that your skill did not terminate in the body natural but extend to the Politick for a more pertinent Interrogatory could never have been made by Plato or Aristotle In answer to which you may please to understand That when these Constitutions were first made our Ancestors were a plain-hearted well-meaning People without Court-reserves or tricks who having made choice of this sort of Government and having Power enough in their hands to make it take place did not foresee or imagine that any thoughts of Invading their Rights could enter into the Princes Head nor do I read that it ever did till the Norman Line came to Reign which coming in by Treaty it was obvious there was no Conquest made upon any but Harold in whose stead William the First came and would claim no more after his Victory than what Harold enjoy'd excepting that he might confiscate as he did those great men who took part with the wrong Title and French-men were put into their Estates which though it made in this Kingdom a mixture between Normans and Saxons yet produced no Change or Innovation in the Government the Norman Peers being as tenacious of their Liberties and as active in the recovery of them to the full as the Saxon Families were Soon after the death of William and possibly in his time there began some Invasions upon the Rights of the Kingdom which begat Grievances and afterwards Complaints and Discontents which grew to that height that the Peers were fain to use their Power that is Arm their Vassals to defend the Government whilest the Princes of that Age first King John and then Henry the Third got Force together The Barons call'd in Lewis the Dauphin whilst the King would have given away the Kingdom to the Sarazens as he did to the Pope and armed their own Creatures so that a bloody War ensued for almost forty years off and on as may be read in our History The success was that the Barons or Peers obtained in the close two Charters or Laws for the ascertaining their Rights by which neither their Lives Liberties or Estates could ever be in danger any more from any Arbitrary Power in the Prince and so the good Government of England which was before this time like the Law of Nature onely written in the hearts of Men came to be exprest in Parchment and remain a Record in Writing though these Charters gave us no more than what was our own before After these Charters were made there could not chuse but happen some encroachment upon them but so long as the Peers kept their greatness there was no breaches but what were immediately made up in Parliament which when-ever they assembled did in the first place confirm the Charters and made very often Interpretations upon them for the benefit of the People witness the Statute de Tallagio non concedendo and many others But to come nearer the giving the Doctor an answer you may please to understand that not long after the framing of these forementioned Charters there did arise a Grievance not foreseen or provided for by them and it was such an one that had beaten down the Government at once if it had not been Redressed in an Orderly way This was the Intermission of Parâ—iaments which could not be called but â—y the Prince and he not doing of it â—hey ceast to be Assembled for some years if this had not been speedily reâ—edied the Barons must have put on â—heir Armour again for who can Imaâ—ine that such brisk Assertors of their â—ights could have acquiesced in an Omission that ruin'd the Foundation of the Government which consisting of King Lords and Commons and having at that time Marched near Five hundred years upon three Leggs must then have gone on hopping upon one which could it have gone forward as was impossible whilest Property continued where it was yet would have rid but a little way Nor can it be wonder'd at that our great Men made no provision against this Grievance in their Charters because it was impossible for them to imagine that their Prince who had so good a share in this Government should go about to destroy it and to take that burden upon himself which by our Constitution was undeniably to be divided between him and his Subjects And therefore divers of the great Men of those times speaking with that excellent Prince King Edward the First about it
DISCOURSES CONCERNING Government In Way of DIALOGUE WHEREIN By Observations drawn from other KINGDOMS and STATES the Excellency of the ENGLISH GOVERNMENT is demonstrated the CAUSES of the DECAY thereof are considered and proper REMEDIES for CURE proposed By Henry Nevill Esq LONDON Printed and Sold by A. Baldwin in Warwick-Lane 1698. TO THE READER THese Discourses were privately Printed and Handed about in K. Charles the Second's Reign but now in this Reign when Truth is better Entertained I have thought good to make them more Publick for the Benefit of my Country A. B. The Argument A Noble Venetian not one of the young Fry but a grave sober person who had born Office and Magistracy in his own Commonwealth having been some years since in France with a near Relation of his who was Ambassadour at that Court and finding himself out of Employment resolved to divert himself by visiting some part of the World which he had never seen and so passing through Germany Flanders and Holland arrived in England about the beginning of May last bringing Letters of recommendation to several English Gentlemen who had been Travellers and made Friendship in his Countrey A Custom usually practised amongst such who travel into any part where they have no habitude or acquaintance Amongst the rest he was addressed to one of the Gentlemen who acts a part in this Dialogue Who after he had waited upon him and served him for near two Moneths had certain necessary occasions which called him for some time into the Country Where he had not been above three Weeks before he heard by meer accident that the Gentleman of Venice was fallen dangerous sick of a malignant Feaver Which made him post away immediately to London to assist and serve him in what he might But he found him almost perfectly restored to his health by an eminent Physician of our Nation as renowned for his Skill and Cures at home as for his Writings both here and abroad And who besides his profound knowledge in all Learning as well in other Professions as his own had particularly arriv'd to so exact and perfect a discovery of the formerly hidden parts of human Bodies that every one who can but understand Latine may by his means know more of Anatomy than either Hypocrates or any of the Ancients or Moderns did or do perceive And if he had lived in the days of Solomon that great Philosopher would never have said Cor hominis inserutabile This excellent Doctor being in the sick mans Chamber when the other English Gentleman newly alighted came to visit him After some Compliments and Conversation of course they begun to talk of Political Matters as you will better understand by the Introduction and by the Discourse it self The FIRST DAY The Introduction English Gentleman THE sudden news I had of your sad distemper and the donger you were in has been the cause of a great deal of affliction to me as well as of my present and speedy repair to London some Weeks sooner thâ—n I intended I must confess I received some comfort to hear at my arrival of your amendment and do take much more now to find you up and as I hope recover'd which I knew would be a necessary consequence of your sending for this excellent Physician the Esculapius of our Age it being the first request I had to make to you if by seeing him here in your Chamber I had not found it needless For the Destiny of us English-men depends upon him and we either live or dye Infallibly according to the Judgment or good Fortune we have when we are sick either to call or not call him to our assistance Noble Venetian I am Infinitely obliged to you for your care of me but am sorry it has been so inconvenient to you as to make you leave your Affairs in the Countrey sooner than you proposed to your self to do I wish I might be so fortunate in the course of my Life as to find an opportunity of making some part of an acknowledgment for this and all the rest of your favours but shall pray God it may not be in the same kind but that your health may ever be so entire that you never need so transcendent a Charity as I now receive from your Goodness And as to this incomparable Doctor although I must confess that all the good which has happen'd to me in this Country as well as the knowledge I have received of Persons and Things does derive from you yet I must make an exception as to this one point for if I can either read or hear this Gentleman 's excellent Writings and the Fame he worthily injoys in my Country would have made it inexcusable in me to implore the help of any other and I do assure you that before I left England it was in my Ambition to beg your Mediation towards the bringing me into the acquaintance and favour of this Learned Person even before I had any thoughts of becoming the Object of his Care and Skill as now I am the Trophy of both Doctor Well Gentlemen you are both too great to be Flatterers and I too little to be flattered and therefore I will impute this fine discourse you both make about me to the overflowing of your Wit and the having no Object near you to vent it upon but me And for you Sir if my Art fail me not the voiding this Mirth is a very good sign that you are in a fair way to a perfect recovery And for my Countryman here I hope whilst he has this vent that his Hypocondriack distemper will be at quiet and that neither his own thoughts nor the ill posture of our Publick Affairs will make him hang himself for at least this twelve Months Only Gentlemen pray take notice that this does not pass upon me nor do I drink it like Milk as the French phrase it being mindful of what a grave Gentleman at Florence replyed to a young Esquire who answered his Compliments with Oh Sir you flatter me i prencipt s'adulano i pari vostri si coglionono That last word I cannot render well into Latin English Gentleman Well Doctor we will not offend your Modesty The next time we do you Justice it shall be behind your back since you are so severe upon us But you may assure your self that my intention of recommending you to this Gentleman was for his own sake and not for yours For you have too many Patients already and it were much better both for you and us that you had but half so many For then we should have more of your Writings and sometimes enjoy your good Conversation which is worth our being sick on purpose for And I am resolved to put my self sometimes into my Bed and send for you since you have done coming to our Coffee-House But to leave this Subject now I hear you say that this Gentleman is in a perfect way of recovery pray is he well enough to hear without any
there are and have been so many absolute Monarchies in the World in which it seems that nothing is provided for but the Greatness and Power of the Prince Eng. Gent. I have presumed to give you already my Reason why I take for granted that such a Power could never be given by the Consent of any People for a perpetuity for though the People of Israel did against the will of Samuel and indeed of God himself demand and afterwards chuse themselves a King yet he was never such a King as we speak of for that all the Orders of their Commonwealth the Sanhedrim the Congregation of the People the Princes of the Tribes c. did still remain in being as hath been excellently proved by a learned Gentleman of our Nation to whom I refer you it may then be enquired into how these Monarchies at first did arise History being in this point silent as to the Ancient Principalities we will Conjecture that some of them might very well proceed from the Corruption of better Governments which must necessarily cause a Depravation in manners as nothing is more certain than that Politick defects breed Moral ones as our Nation is a pregnant Example this Debauchery of manners might blind the understandings of a great many destroy the Fortunes of others and make them indigent infuse into very many a neglect and carelesness of the publick good which in all setled States is very much regarded so that it might easily come into the Ambition of some bold aspiring Person to affect Empire and as easily into his Power by fair pretences with some and promises of advantages with others to procure Followers and gain a numerous Party either to Usurp Tyranny over his own Countrey or to lead men forth to Conquer and Subdue another Thus it is supposed that Nimrod got his Kingdom who in Scripture is called a Great Hunter before God which Expositers interpret A great Tyrant The Modern Despotical Powers have been acquired by one of these two ways either by pretending by the first Founder thereof that he had a Divine Mission and so gaining not only Followers but even easie Access in some places without Force to Empire and aftewards dilateing their Power by great Conquests Thus Mahomet and Cingis Can began and established the Sarazen and Tartarian Kingdoms or by a long Series of Wisdom in a Prince or chief Magistrate of a mixt Monarchy and his Council who by reason of the Sleepiness and Inadvertency of the People have been able to extinguish the great Nobility or render them Inconsiderable and so by degrees taking away from the People their Protectors render them Slaves So the Monarchies of France and some other Countries have grown to what they are at this day there being left but a Shadow of the three States in any of these Mocarchies and so no bounds remaining to the Regal Power but since Property remains still to the Subjects these Governments may be said to be changed but not founded or established for there is no Maxim more Infallible and Holding in any Science than this is in the Politicks That Empire is founded in Property Force or Fraud may alter a Government but it is Property that must Found and Eternise it Upon this undeniable Aphorisme we are to build most of our subsequent Reasoning in the mean time we may suppose that hereafter the great power of the King of France may diminish much when his enraged and oppressed Subjects come to be commanded by a Prince of less Courage Wisdom and Military Vertue when it will be very hard for any such King to Govern Tyrannically a Country which is not entirely his own Doct. Pray Sir give me leave to ask you by the way what is the Reason that here in our Country where the Peerage is lessened sufficiently the King has not gotten as great an Addition of Power as accrews to the Crown in France Eng. Gent. You will understand that Doctor before I have finisht this discourse but to stay your Stomach till then you may please to know that in France the greatness of the Nobility which has been lately taken from them did not consist in vast Riches and Revenues but in great Priviledges and Jurisdictions which obliged the People to obey them whereas our great Peers in former times had not only the same great Dependences but very Considerable Revenues besides in Demesnes and otherwise This Vassallage over the People which the Peers of France had being abolisht the Power over those Tenants which before was in their Lords fell naturally and of course into the Crown although the Lands and possessions divested of those Dependences did and do still remain to the Owners whereas here in England though the Services are for the most part worn out and insignificant yet for want of Providence and Policy in former Kings who could not foresee the danger a far off Entails have been suffered to be cut off and so two parts in ten of all those vast Estates as well Mannours as Demesnes by the Luxury and Folly of the Owners have been within these two hundred years purchased by the lesser Gentry and the Commons which has been so far from advantaging the Crown that it has made the Country scarce governable by Monarchy But if you please I will go on with my discourse about Government and come to this again hereafter Noble Ven. I beseech you Sir do Eng. Gent. I cannot find by the small reading I have that there were any other Governments in the World Anciently than these three Monarchy Aristocracy and Democracy For the first I have no light out of Antiquity to convince me that there were in old times any other Monarchies but such as were absolutely Despotical all Kingdoms then as well in Greece as Macedon Epirus and the like and where it is said the Princes exercised their Power moderately as in Asia being altogether unlimited by any Laws or any Assemblies of Nobility or People Yet I must confess Aristotle when he reckons up the Corruptions of these three Governments calls Tyranny the Corruption of Monarchy which if he means a Change of Government as it is in the Corruptions of the other two then it must follow that the Philosopher knew of some other Monarchy at the first which afterwards degenerated into Tyranny that is into Arbitrary Power for so the Word Tyranny is most commonly taken though in modern Languages it signifies the ill Exercise of Power for certainly Arbitrary Government cannot be called Tyranny where the whole Property is in the Prince as we reasonably suppose it to have been in those Monarchies no more than it is Tyranny for you to govern your own House and Estate as you please But it is possible Aristotle might not in this speak so according to Terms of Art but might mean that the ill Government of a Kingdom or Family is Tyranny However we have one Example that puzzles Politicians and that is Egypt where Pharaoh is called King and
they are to Cultivate and improve This is well managed by the Bashaws and their Officers and comes to an incredible sum the goods being sold the Money is conveyed in specie to the Port and is the greatest part of that Prince's Revenue And it is believed that if all the Lands had been entirely confiscated and that the Grand Seignior had managed them by his Officers he would not have made a third part so much of the whole as he receives now annually for one half not only because those People are extreamly industrious where their own profit is concerned but for that it is clear if they had been totally divested of their Estates they would have left their Country and made that which is now the most populous Kingdom of the World a Desart as is all the rest of the Turkish Dominions except some Cities And if the People had removed as they did elsewhere there would not only have wanted hands to have Cultivated and Improved the Lands but mouths to consume the product of it so that the Princes Revenue by the cheapness of Victual and the want of Labourers would have almost fallen to nothing Noble Ven. Pray God this be not the reason that this King of France leaves Property to his Subjects for certainly he hath taken example by this Province of Egypt his Subjects having a Tax which for the continuance of it I must call a Rent or Tribute Impos'd upon them to the value of one full half of their Estates which must ever increase as the Lands improve Eng. Gent. I believe Sir there is another reason For the Property there being in the Nobility and Gentry which are the hands by which he manages his Force both at home and abroad it would not have been easie or safe for him to take away their Estates But I come to the limited Monarchies They were first Introduced as was said before by the Goths and other Northern People Whence those great swarms came as it was unknown to Procopius himself who liv'd in the time of their Invasion and who was a diligent searcher into all the circumstances of their concernments so it is very needless for us to make any enquiry into it thus much being clear That they came Man Woman and Child and conquer'd and possest all these parts of the World which were then subject to the Roman Empire and since Christianity came in have been so to the Latin Church till honest John Calvin taught some of us the way how to deliver our selves from the Tyrannical Yoak which neither we nor our Forefathers were able to bear Whence those People had the Government they Establisht in these parts after their Conquest that is whether they brought it from their own Country or made it themselves must needs be uncertain since their Original is wholly so but it seems very probable that they had some excellent persons among them though the ignorance and want of learning in that Age hath not suffered any thing to remain that may give us any great light for it is plain that the Government they setled was both according to the exact Rules of the Politicks and very natural and suitable to that Division they made of their several Territories Whenever then these Invaders had quieted any Province and that the People were driven out or subdued they divided the Lands and to the Prince they gave usually a tenth part or thereabouts to the great Men or Comites Regis as it was translated into Latine every one as near as they could an equal share These were to enjoy an Hereditary right in their Estates as the King did in his part and in the Crown but neither he nor his Peers or Companions were to have the absolute disposal of the Lands so allotted them but were to keep a certain proportion to themselves for their use and the rest was ordered to be divided amongst the Free-men who came with them to Conquer What they kept to themselves was called Demesnes in English and French and in Italian Beni Allodiali The other part which they granted to the Free-men was called a Feud and all these Estates were held of these Lords Hereditarily only the Tenants were to pay a small Rent annually and at every Death or Change an acknowledgment in Money and in some Tenures the best Beast besides But the chief condition of the Feud or Grant was that the Tenant should perform certain Services to the Lord of which one in all Tenures of Free-men was to follow him Armed to the Wars for the Service of the Prince and Defence of the Land And upon their admittance to their Feuds they take an Oath to be true Vassals and Tenants to their Lords and to pay their Rents and perform their Services and upon failure to forfeit their Estates and these Tenants were divided according to their Habitations into several Mannors in every one of which there was a Court kept twice every year where they all were to appear and to be admitted to their several Estates and to take the Oath above mentioned All these Peers did likewise hold all their Demesnes as also all their Mannors of the Prince to whom they swore Allegiance and Fealty There were besides these Freemen or Francklins other Tenants to every Lord who were called Villains who were to perform all servile Offices and their Estates were all at the Lords disposal when he pleased these consisted mostly of such of the former Inhabitants of these Countries as were not either destroyed or driven out and possibly of others who were Servants amongst them before they came from their own Countries Perhaps thus much might have been unnecessary to be said considering that these Lords Tenants and Courts are yet extant in all the Kingdoms in Europe but that to a Gentleman of Venice where there are none of these things and where the Goths never were something may be said in excuse for me Noble Ven. 'T is true Sir we fled from the Goths betimes but yet in those Countries which we recovered since in Terra firma we found the Footsteps of these Lords and Tenures and their Titles of Counts though being now Provinces to us they have no influence upon the Government as I suppose you are about to prove they have in these parts Eng. Gent. You are right Sir for the Governments of France Spain England and all other Countries where these People setled were fram'd accordingly It is not my business to describe particularly the distinct Forms of the several Governments in Europe which do derive from these People for they may differ in some of their Orders and Laws though the Foundation be in them all the same this would be unnecessary they being all extant and so well known and besides little to my purpose excepting to shew where they have declined from their first Institution and admitted of some change France and Poland have not nor as I can learn ever had any Free-men below the Nobility that is
had no Yeomen but all are either Noble or Villains therefore the Lands must have been Originally given as they now remain into the hands of these Nobles But I will come to the Administration of the Government in these Countries and first say wherein they all agree or did at least in their institution which is That the Soveraign power is in the States assembled together by the Prince in which he presides these make Laws Levy Money Redress Grievances punish great Officers and the like These States consist in some places of the Prince and Nobility onely as in Poland and anciently in France before certain Towns for the encouraging of Trade procured Priviledges to send Deputies which Deputies are now called the third Estate and in others consist of the Nobility and Commonalty which latter had and still have the same right to Intervene and Vote as the great ones have both in England Spain and other Kingdomes Doct. But you say nothing of the Clergy I see you are no great friend to them to leave them out of your Politicks Eng. Gent. The truth is Doctor 〈◊〉 could wish there had never been any 〈◊〉 the purity of Christian Religion as alsâ—… the good and orderly Government of thâ—… World had been much better provideâ—… for without them as it was in the Apostâ—…lical time when we heard nothing 〈◊〉 Clergy But my omitting their Reveâ—…end Lordships was no neglect for I meaâ—… to come to them in order for you know that the Northern People did not bring Christianity into these parts but found it here and were in time converted to it so that there could be no Clergy at the first but if I had said nothing at all of this Race yet I had committed no Solecism in the Politicks for the Bishops and great Abbots intervened in the States here upon the same Foundation that the other Peers do viz. for their great possessions and the dependence their Tenants and Vassals have upon them although they being a People of that great sanctity and knowledg scorn â—o intermix so much as Titles with us â—rofane Lay-Ideots and therefore will â—e called Lords Spiritual But you will â—ave a very venerable opinion of them â—f you do but consider how they came â—y these great possessions which made â—hem claim a third part of the Governâ—ent And truely not unjustly by my â—…le for I believe they had no less at â—…e time than a third part of the Lands 〈◊〉 most of these Countries Noble Ven. Pray how did they acquire â—…ese Lands was it not here by the Charitable donation of pious Christians as it was elsewhere Eng. Gent. Yes certainly very pious men some of them might be well meaning people but still such as were cheated by these holy men who told them perpetually both in publick and private that they represented God upon Earth being Ordained by Authority from him who was his Viceroy here and that what was given to them was given to God and he would repay it largely both in this World and the next This wheedle made our barbarous Ancestors newly Instructed in the Christian Faith if this Religion may be called so and sucking in this foolish Doctrine more than the Doctrine of Christ so zealous to these Vipers that they would have pluckt out their eyes to serve them much more bestow as they did the fruitfullest and best situate of their possessions upon them Nay some they perswaded to take upon them their Callings vow Chastity and give all they had to them and become one of them amongst whom I believe they found no more sanctity than they left in the World But this is nothing to another trick they had which was to insinuate into the most notorious and execrable Villains with which that Age abounded Men who being Princes and other great Men for such were the Tools they work'd with had treacherously poisoned or otherwise murdered their nearest Relations Fathers Brothers Wives to reign or enjoy their Estates These they did perswade into a belief that if they had a desire to be sav'd notwithstanding their execrable Villanies they need but part with some of those great possessions which they had acquired by those acts to their Bishopricks or Monasteries and they would pray for their Souls and they were so holy and acceptable to God that he would deny them nothing which they immediately performed so great was the ignorance and blindness of that Age and you shall hardly find in the story of those times any great Monastery Abbey or other Religious House in any of these Countries I speak confidently as to what concerns our own Saxons that had not its Foundation from some such Original Doct. A worthy beginning of a worthy Race Noble Ven. Sir you maintain a strange Position here That it had been better there had been no Clergy Would you have had no Gospel preached no Sacraments no continuance of Christian Religion in the World or do you think that these things could have been without a Succession of the true Priesthood or as you call it of true Ministry by means of Ordination do's not your own Church hold the same Eng. Gent. You will know more of my Church when I have told you what I find the word Church to signifie in Scripture which is to me the only rule of Faith Worship and Manners neither do I seek these aditional helps of Fathers Councels or Ecclesiastical history much less Tradition for since it is said in the word of God it self That Antichrist did begin to work even in those days I can easily believe that he had brought his Work to some perfection before the word Church was by him applied to the Clergy I shall therefore tell you what I conceive that Church Clergy and Ordination signified in the Apostolical times I find then the word Church in the New Testament taken but in two sences the first for the Vniversal Invisible Church called sometimes of the First-born that is the whole number of the true Followers of Christ in the World where-ever resident or into what part soever dispersed The other signification of Church is an Assembly which though it be sometimes used to express any Meetings even unlawful tumultuous ones as well in Scripture as prophane Authors yet it is more frequently understood for a gathering together to the Duties of Prayer Preaching and Breaking of Bread and the whole Number so Congregated is both in the Acts of the Apostles and in their holy Epistles called the Church nor is there the least colour for appropriating that word to the Pastors and Deacons who since the Corruptions of Christian Religion are called Clergy which word in the Old Testament is used sometimes for Gods whole People and sometimes for the Tribe of Levi out of which the Priests were chosen for the word signifies a Lot so that Tribe is called Gods Lot because they had no share alotted them when the Land was divided but were to live upon Tythe and serve in the
Government at the present and calling Parliaments no more administer it by force as it is done in France for some good time Eng. Gent. In France it has been a long Work and although that Tyranny was begun as has been said by Petition from the States themselves not to be assembled any more yet the Kings since in time of great Distraction have thought fit to convocate them again as they did in the Civil Wars thrice Once at Orleans and twice at Blois I would not repeat what I have so tediously discoursed of concerning France already but only to intreat you to remember that our Nation has no such poor and numerous Gentry whlch draw better Revenues from the King's Purse than they can from their own Estates all our country people consisting of Rich Nobility and Gentry of Wealthy Yeomen and of Poor Younger Brothers who have little or nothing and can never raise their Companies if they should get Commissions without their Elder Brothers Assistance amongst his Tenants or else with the free consent and desire of the People which in this case would hardly be afforded them But we will suppose there be idle People enough to make an Army and that the King has Money enough to Arm and Raise them And I will grant too to avoid tediousness although I do not think it possible that the people will at the first for fear receive them into their Houses and Quarter them against Law nay pay the Money which shall be by Illegal Edicts imposed upon the Subjects to pay them Yet is it possible an Army can continue any time to enslave their own Country Can they resist the Prayers or the Curses of their Fathers Brothers Wives Mothers Sisters and of all Persons wherever they frequent Upon this Account all the Greek Tyrants were of very short Continuance who being in chief Magistracy and Credit in their Commonwealths by means of Soldiers and Satellites usurped the Soveraignty But did ever any of them excepting Dionysius leave it to his Son Who was driven out within less than a year after his Fathers death Many Armies of the Natives have destroyed Tyrannies So the Decemvirate was ruined at Rome the Tarquins expelled before that Our own Country has been a Stage even in our time where this Tragedy has been sufficiently acted for the Army after the War was done fearing the Monarchy should be restored again held Councils got Agitators and though there were often very severe Executions upon the Ring-leaders did at length by their perseverance necessitate their Officers to joyn with them having many good Head-pieces of the Party to advise them and so broke all Treaties And the Parliament too adhering to a small Party of them who consented to lay aside Kingly Government and afterwards drove them away too fearing they would continue to Govern in Oligarchy I am far from approving this way they used in which they broke all Laws Divine and Humane Political and Moral But I urge it only to shew how easily an Army of Natives is to be deluded with the Name of Liberty and brought to pull down any thing which their Ring-leaders tell them tends to enslaving their Country 'T is true this Army was afterwards cheated by their General who without their Knowledge much less Consent one Morning suddenly made himself Tyrant of his Country It as true that their Reputation not their Arms supported him in that State for some time but it is certain that they did very often and to the last refuse to be instrumental to levy Moneys though for their own pay and so he against his Will was fain to call from time to time Parliamentary Conventions And it is most certain that he did in the Sickness of which he died often complain that his Army would not go a step farther with him and de facto some Months after his death they did dethrone his Son and restore the Remainder of the old Parliament upon promise made to them in secret by the Demogogues of that Assembly that a Commonwealth should be speedily framed and setled Noble Ven. Sir I am satisfied that an Army raised here on a sudden and which never saw an Enemy could not be brought to act such high things for the Ruin of their own Government nor possibly would be any way able to resist the Fury and Insurrection of the people But what say you of a Forreign Army raised by your King abroad and brought over whose Officers and Soldiers shall have no Acquaintance or Relations amongst the people here Eng. Gent. All Forces of that kind must be either Auxiliaries or Mercenaries Auxiliaries are such as are sent by some Neighbour Prince or State with their own Colours and paid by themselves though possibly the Prince who demands them may furnish the Money These usually return home again when the occasion for which they were demanded is over But whether they do or not if they be not mixed and over-ballanced with Forces which depend upon the Prince who calls them but that the whole Weight and power lies in them they will certainly first or last seize that Country for their own Soveraign And as for Mercenaries they must be raised 't is true with the Money of the Prince who needs them but by the Authority and Credit of some Great Persons who are to Lead and Command them And these in all Occasions have made their own Commander Prince as F. Sforza at Milan drove out by this trick the Visconti ancient Dukes of that State and the Mamalukes in Egypt made themselves a Military Commonwealth So that the way of an Army here would either be no Remedy at all or one very much worse than the Disease to the Prince himself Noble Ven. Well Sir I begin to be of Opinion that any thing the King can grant the Parliament especially such a Parliament as this is which consists of Men of very great Estates and so can have no interest to desire Troubles will not be so inconvenient to him as to endeavour to break the Government by force But why may he not for this time by soothing them and offering them great Alliances abroad for the Interest of England and ballancing Matters in Europe more eaven than they have been and in fine by offering them a War with the French to which Nation they have so great a hatred lay them asleep and get good store of Money and stave off this severe Cure you speak of at least for some time longer Eng. Gent. There has been something of this done too lately and there is a Gentleman lies in the Tower who is to answer for it But you may please to understand that there is scarce any amongst the middle sort of People much less within the Walls of the House of Commons who do not perfectly know that we can have no Alliance with any Nation in the World that will signifie any thing to them or to our selves till our Government be redressed and new modelled And therefore though
a Regulation as this come in Debate amongst them the Parliament will reserve to it self the Approbation of the Great Officers as Chancellor Judges General Officers of an Army and the like and that such shall not have a settlement in those Charges till they are accordingly allowed of but may in the mean time exercise them As to particulars I shall always refer you to what the Parliament will judge fit to Order in the Case but if you have any thing to Object or to shew in general that some such Regulation as this cannot be effectual towards the putting our Distracted Country into better Order I shall think my self oblig'd to Answer you if you can have Patience to hear me and are not weary already as you may very well be Noble Ven. I shall certainly never be weary of such Discourse however I shall give you no further trouble in this matter for I am very fully satisfied that such Reformation if it could be compassed would not only Unite all Parties but make you very Flourishing at home and very Great abroad but have you any hopes that such a thing will ever come into Debate what do the Parliament-men say to it Eng. Gent. I never had any Discourse to this purpose either with any Lord or Member of the Commons house otherwise than as possibly some of these Notions might fall in at Ordinary Conversation For I do not intend to Intrench upon the Office of God to teach our Senatours Wisdom I have known some men so full of their own Notions that they went up and down sputtering them in every Mans Face they met some went to Great Men during our late troubles nay to the King himself to offer their Expedients from Revelation Two Men I was acquainted with of which one had an Invention to reconcile differences in Religion the other had a project for a Bank of Lands to lye as a Security for summs of Money lent both these were Persons of Great Parts and Fancy but yet so troublesome at all Times and in all Companies that I have often been forced to repeat an Excellent Proverb of your Country God deliver me from a man that has but one business and I assure you there is no Mans Reputation that I envy less than I do that of such Persons and therefore you may please to believe that I have not imitated them in scattering these Notions nor can I Prophesie whether any such Apprehensions as these will ever come into the Heads of those men who are our true Physitians But yet to answer your Question and give you my Conjecture I believe that we are not Ripe yet for any great Reform not only because we are a very Debauch'd People I do not only mean that we are given to Whoring Drinking Gaming and Idleness but chiefly that we have a Politique Debauch which is a neglect of all things that concern the publick welfare and a setting up our own private Interest against it I say this is not all for then the Polity of no Country could be Redrest For every Commonwealth that is out of order has ever all these Debauches we speak of as Consequences of their loose State But there are two other Considerations which induce me to fear that our Cure is not yet near The first is because most of the Wise and Grave Men of this Kingdom are very silent and will not open their Budget upon any terms and although they dislike the present Condition we are in as much as any Men and see the Precipice it leads us to yet will never open their Mouths to prescribe a Cure but being asked what they would advise give a shrug like your Country-men There was a very considerable Gentleman as most in England both for Birth Parts and Estate who being a Member of the Parliament that was called 1640. continued all the War with them and by his Wisdom and Eloquence which were both very great promoted very much their Affairs When the Factions began between the Presbyters and Independents he joyned Cordially with the latter so far as to give his Affirmative to the Vote of No Addresses that is to an Order made in the House of Commons to send no more Messages to the King nor to receive any from him Afterwards when an Assault was made upon the House by the Army and divers of the Members taken violently away and Secluded he disliking it though he were none of them voluntarily absented himself and continued retired being exceedingly averse to a Democratical Government which was then declared for till Cromwell's Usurpation and being infinitely courted by him absolutely refused to accept of any Employment under him or to give him the least Counsel When Cromwell was dead and a Parliament called by his Son or rather by the Army the chief Officers of which did from the beginning whisper into the Ears of the Leading Members that if they could make an honest Government they should be stood by as the Word then was by the Army This Gentleman at that time neither would be Elected into that Parliament nor give the least Advice to any other Person that was but kept himself still upon the Reserve Insomuch that it was generally believed that although he had ever been opposite to the late King 's coming to the Government again though upon Propositions yet he might hanker after the Restoration of His Majesty that now is But that Apprehension appeared groundless when it came to the pinch for being consulted as an Oracle by the then General Monk whether he should restore the Monarchy again or no would make no Answer nor give him the least Advice and de facto hath ever since kept himself from Publick Business although upon the Banishment of my Lord of Clarendon he was visited by one of the Greatest Persons in England and one in as much Esteem with His Majesty as any whatsoever and desired to accept of some great Employment near the King which he absolutely refusing the same Person not a Stranger to him but well known by him begged of him to give his Advice how His Majesty who desired nothing more than to unite all his People together and repair the Breaches which the Civil War had caused now my Lord Clarendon was gone who by his Counsels kept those Wounds open might perform that Honourable and Gracious Work but still this Gentleman made his Excuses And in short neither then nor at any time before or after excepting when he sate in the Long Parliament of the Year 40. neither during the distracted Times nor since His Majesty's Return when they seemed more reposed would ever be brought either by any private intimate Friend or by any Person in Publick Employment to give the least Judgment of our Affairs or the least Counsel to mend them though he was not shye of declaring his dislike of Matters as they went And yet this Gentleman was not only by repute and esteem a wise Man but was really so as it