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england_n	france_n	king_n	normandy_n	7,734	5	11.5949	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16170	A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist.	Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628.	1598 (1598)	STC 3092; ESTC S102284	61,282	90

counsell and of my will see that you doe giue all men entrance into the Church that are desirous to come in for if I shall vnderstande that any man that desireth to be made partaker of the Church shall eyther be let by you or forbidden to enter in I will immediately sende one of mine that by my commaundement shall remooue you from your Sea and giue your place vnto another Note that hee saieth I will sende not the Bishoppe of Rome his officer but one of mine owne men who shall displace you and place another therein not by commaundement of the counsell or Bishoppe of Rome but by my commaundement The like also writes Socrates he threatned vnto Alexander the Bishoppe of Constantinople if he woulde not receiue Arrius into the Church But you will say that the Emperour iniuried both Athanasius and Alexander I denie not that but although Theodoretus doth blame his ouermuch light credulitie and doth excuse it by the like in Dauid against Miphiboseth yet doth neyther hee nor any other ancient author accuse him of tyranny for medling with matters that he had nothing to do withall or punishing of them ouer whom he had no lawfull iurisdiction and also doth refute that you affirme that Constantine refused to iudge Bishoppes Nowe to returne againe to the history the same Socrates doth say that when the Arrians had accused Athanasius Macarius and other of their complices vnto the Emperour of foule factes Constantine wrote vnto his sisters sonne D●linatius who was then abiding at Antioch 500 miles from Alexandria to call the parties before him and to punish them that he shoulde finde faultie But afterwarde because the Bishoppes were assembled at Tyrus about the dedication of his newe Church at Hierusalem he referred ouer the hearing of those matters vnto them So that at the first he had committed both the triall and the punishment of the greatest Bishoppe of all the East Church vnto a temporall officer of his the which fact and the other which I haue before rehearsed doe plainly proue that Constantine did not account nor acknowledge his Empyre or him selfe empaired or of lesse commaund by accepting of the Christian religion but that he still executed his princely prerogatiue on all persons both spirituall temporall and still clamed to be the minister immediate of God not any vnder officer of the Bishops of Rome Gods vicar on earth rightly to for as Paul saith 1. Tim. 6. Let all bondmen whatsoeuer they be that be vnder yoke repute their lords worthy of al honor lest the name of the lord his doctrine be blasphemed but they which haue beleeuing Lords let them not cōtemne them because they bee their brethren but rather serue them because they bee beleeuers and belooued who are pertakers of the benefite Teach these thinges and exhort them If any man teach otherwise and doth not yeeld vnto the ●ound speaches of our Lord Iesus Christ and that doctrine which is agreeable to godlinesse is proud knoweth nothing is mindesicke of questions quarrelles about wordes So also might it haue been saide Ye Popes Byshoppes account your princes worthie of all honour least the name and doctrine of Christ be euill spoken of but ye Byshoppes that haue Christian Kinges contemne them not because they be Christians but be the more obedient and dutifull vnto them because they haue embraced Chrst and are pertakers of his benefit This teach and exhorte but whosoeuer teacheth otherwise teacheth contrary doctrine to Christ is a proude prelate and quite voide of knowledge And as Peter writeth 1 Epistle 3. Ye bondmen bee subiect in all feare vnto your Lordes not onely vnto them that are good and moderate but also vnto them that are waywarde and vnreasonable for this is grace or worthie of fauour if a man doe beare sorrowes for conscience of GOD suffering vniustly So also might it haue beene rightly saide vnto the Popes and Byshoppes in Constantines time and now also be ye subiecte in all feare vnto your Princes not onely vnto such as are good and gratious but also vnto vngodly and tyrannicall neyther release your selues of your alleagence for if yee doe take and beare wrong quietly for regarde of GOD God will abundadtly rewarde your patience for the consequent is very strong and good seeing the thinges are all together alike and equall for if the Christian bondmen were not enfranchised because they were spirituall brothers vnto their Lordes neyther were the Popes and Byshoppes discharged of subiection vnto their Princes because they were become their spirituall bretheren and if you will to their spirituall fathers But they say with Phigl●ius that Christ cōmitted the gouernement of his Church vnto Peter What prince Peter was and his successors and therefore all Kinges that are of the Church are subiect vnto the Byshoppes of Rome And if we grant this can there bee ought else inferred then subiection in causes and censures ecclesiasticall and not in causes and punishmentes secular and temporall for what fonde Frenchman will say that because in olde time the Kinges of England were vassals vnto the French Kinges for the Duchies of Normandy and Guien that therefore the crowne of Englande was subiect vnto the Kinges of France or that they coulde commande the Kinges of England in any matter touching their crowne of England or because the Byshoppes Chanceller can excommunicate a man for adultery that therefore he can also depriue a man of life and liuing Mat. 20 for a greater fault Moreouer did not Christ plainelye enough declare what kinde of Kingdome he gaue to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and how vnkingely kinges they shoulde bee when they contended among themselues who should be greatest The kinges of nations saide he be Lordes ouer those countries and their princer haue power ouer them but so it is not in you doth he not here in plaine wordes take from them all earthlye and bodily Empire and power and that too from the greatest of them So that the Pope that claimeth to bee greatest and chiefest is also hereby excluded neyther will a shifte of humilitie serue to escape seeing that to depose Princes is to raigne ouer nations is to be their Lord is to haue power ouer them all which thinges Christ saith the greatest of his Apostles his successors should not haue nor consequently authoritie to release all subiectes of their allegiance the which is a supreeme point of Earthly Empire the which neuer any mortall man yet had and onely belongeth vnto the great God the supreeme Lord and soueraigne of the whole world for neuer yet was there any so mightie a monarch that had all the world vnder his Empire neither then could his authoritie extend ouer all nations but his power determined within the bonds of his owne Empire could not stretch beyonde his owne vassals among whom only he might decree in what cases their seignories should be forfeated and their bondmen be enfranchised of

the seruice of their Lordes and not prescribe lawes therein vnto all other not subiect vnto him no more then the Queene of England can enacte that if the king of Spaine shall doe this and this that then hee shall forfeite his Crowne Noe law of the Church touching temporalties euer alowed in this Realme or the king of France make an edict that if any Lord in England shal committe such and such faultes that then he shall forfitte all his propertie ouer his bondmen and they to be enfranchised And therfore because the Princes of this Realme did neuer acknoledge themselues vassals vnto the Pope nor the See of Rome nor neuer agnised him for their Soueraigne in temporalities they did neuer heare when the Popes authoritie was greatest administer iustice and adiudge secular causes here according to the Popes decrees and Canons of the counsels but alwaies according to the lawes costomes and statutes of the Realme and in those causes the Canon law had no authoritie and force in this Land This is so often affirmed by the author of the learned booke called the Doctor and student who as he was a greate lawyer so was he also a good diuine and deuout Catholicke that it weare tedious to rehearse them all In the xliiii Chapter of thee seconde booke thus hee writeth for the ordinarie no yet the partie himselfe haue any authoritie to binde any inheritance by the authoritie of the spirituall law how then can they binde the inheritance of the crowne And againe in the same Chapter and th●●fore it is somwhat to bee meruelled that ordinaries will admitte such land for a title c. without knowing how the common law will serue therein for of meere right all inheritance within this Realme ought to bee ordered by the Kinges Law Also in the xxxvi Chapter of the second booke the Doctor of diuinitie saith yet me thinkes alwaies that the title of the lapse in such case is giuen by the law of the Church and not by the temporall law and therefore it forceth but little what the temporall law will in it as me seemeth Whereunto the author answereth thus vnder the name of the student of law In such cuntries where the Pope hath power to determine the right of temporall thinges I thinke it is as thou sayest but in this realme it is not so And the right of presentment is a temporall thing and a temporall inheritance and therefore I doe thinke it belongeth to the Kinges law to determine and also to make lawes who shall present after the six moneth aswell as before so that the title of abilitie or none abilitie be not therefore taken from the ordinaries And in like wise it is of auoidance of benefices that is to say that it shall be iudged by the Kinges lawes when a benefice shal be saide uoide and when not and not by the law of the Church and shall the law of the Church determine when the crowne is voide As when a parson is made a Byshoppe or accepteth another benefice without licence or resigneth or is depriued in these causes the common law saith that the benefices be voide And so they should be though the Church had made a law to the contrarie And so if the Pope should haue any title in this case to present it should be by the lawe of this Realme And if hee should haue title to present vnto the Crowne should it not bee by the lawe of this Realme And I haue not seene ne harde that the lawes of this Realme haue giuen any title to the Pope to determine any temporal thing that may be lawfully determined by the Kings Court no● y●● that he may depose the King and giue his kingdom vnto any forreiner but because noe man should repute this lawyer for a Lollard and enimie vnto the Pope see what immediately followeth Doctor It seemeth by the reason that thou hast made now that thou preferrest the Kinges authoritie in presentments before the Popes and that me thinkes should not stand with the Law of God syth the Pope is the vicar generall vnder GOD. Student That I haue saide prooueth nor for the highest preferment in presentmentes is to haue authoritie to examine the abilitie of the person that is presented for if the presented bee able it sufficeth to the discharge of the ordinary by whomesoeuer hee bee presented that authoritie is not denyed by the lawe of the Realme to belong alwaies to the spirituall iurisdiction Thus seing the authour of the Doctor and the student whom some suppose to be Sainte Germany is prooued to bee noe partiall man against the Pope but onely a learned Lawyer that setteth downe vprightly to the satisfaction of mens consciences what right euery man hath and declareth the common opinion of his time when the Popes power was in the Prime we will rehearse yet more out of him to the confirmation of you our Catholicke countrimen who doe openly professe that ye will grant her maiestie as much and as greate authoritie as any of her ancestors before hir father had since the conquest yea or since they embraced the faith of Christ In the xlvii Chapter of the seconde booke he saith that although by the Canon Law the Pope ought to present to all benefice● or dignities the incumbents whereof dye at Rome or within two dayes ●ourney thereof yet he saith that it holdeth not 〈◊〉 this Realme because by the lawes of this realme the King ought according to the auncient right of his crowne to present of all his aduowsons that be of his patronage And in likewise other patrons of benefices of their presentment and the plea of the right of presentments of benefice is within this Realme belongeth to the King and his Crowne And these titles can not be taken from the king and his subiectes but by their assent and so the law that is made therein to put away that title bindeth not in this realme Then may I reason of a stronger that the Kinges title to the Crowne can not be taken away without his consent and so the Law that is made therin by the Church to put away that title bindeth not in this Realme But to returne againe vnto presentments of benefices who knoweth not the terrible statute of premunire made in the Raigne of Edwarde the third against all such as shoulde prouide English benefices or spirituall dignities from Rome or purchase them from the Pope and also against all atturneyes and agents in that matter against the which statute the Pope neuer spurned but suffered it saith Saint Germany and it hath alwaies beene vsed in this Realme with-without resistance yea and in the statute made against the prouisions and translations of Byshoppes by the Pope made in the xvi yeare of the raigne of Richarde the second the vi Chapter we finde in those wordes the cause of the making of the statute least the Crowne of this realme which is immediatly subiect to God and to none other

worde saith hee signifieth also to gouerne It doth indeede properlie signifie to keepe sheepe as we terme it wherein wee include not onelie the feeding of them but also the care of looking to them that they take noe harme the dressing of them when they be ill and all other thinges belonging to the charge and duetie of a sheepehearde and properlie no other signification hath it but by a Metaphore to shewe with howe greate care mildenesse and lenitie kinges ought to gouerne their subiectes Homer and Plato doe often call kinges sheepeheardes of the people and so likewise the sacred scriptures In the twentith of the Actes we haue the same wordes where we reade Therefore looke vnto your selues and the whole flocke wherein the holie Ghost hath placed you Bishoppes and ouerseers in greeke poimaine the Church of God which he hath purchased him with his bloode Nowe that the Apostles or any Bishoppes had any secular power Pighius himselfe doth denie as long as the temporall princes had not receiued the Gospell so that this worde can by no meanes importe anie earthly superioritie And in this Oration Paule doth plainely declare what kinde of kingdome Christes is when hee saith to gouerne the Church of God which he purchased with his bloode for he purchased none with his bloode but t●●s spirituall kingdome for as GOD hee was possessed o● the Empyre of the whole worlde from the beginning But the place of binding and losing we haue examined alreadie and proued that it cannot be vnderstoode otherwise then Christ himselfe doth interpret it in the twenteth of Iohn whose sinnes ye shall remitte are remitted and whose sinnes yee shall retaine are retained and a receiuing into the Church and kingdome of heauen and a shutting out of it And therefore he saith whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and not shall be bounde in earth least any man should dreame that he gaue Peter secular power ouer earthly Empires and that all the commandements and ordinances and decrees of his successors touching worldly matters should be receiued and kept throughout the whole world Neither if the Pope had any such authoritie giuen him by any generall Counsell A general counsell cannot depose Princes as I am assured he hath not for as for the canon made in the counsell of Laterane we will anone make a large seuerall treatise thereof were it good and sufficient to binde all Princes to obedience because it lieth not in the power of a generall counsell to dispose of secular matters For seeing generall counsells doe altogether consist of persons ecclesiasticall and they doe allow noe temporall prince any voice therein and that all the Byshoppes that are assembled there do sit as Byshops spirituall Lords not as temporal that they be secular subiects not soueraignes that the kingdom of the Church is a distincte kingdom as al the Catholickes say from the kingdomes of the world It is as absurd to holde that they can makes lawes touching temporalities to be obserued of all temporall Princes vnder temporall paines as if a madde man would affirme that the assembly of the three states of France may ordaine statutes for the Queenes maiesty of England hir realme and that they are bound in conscience to obserue all lawes made there For doubtlesse the temporall and the ecclesiasticall kingdomes are as seuerall kingdomes as Englande France which haue more alliance together then the other two because they are both secular both bodilie both ruled by one sword but of the other the one is spirituall the other bodily the one of the worlde the other of heauen the one swayed by the ciuill and materiall sworde ●he other by the spirituall the one slaying the soule the other the body But now I would not haue any fond man to imagine that I doe goe about to spoile the temporall prince of his high prerogatiue in ordaining of holsome lawes for the maintenance of the true faith of Christ and the sincere obseruation of all the rest of his holy commandementes the which I doe thinke him bound in conscience to doe but that I doe firmely beleeue and openly professe that by the right giuen him by God he may punish all persons both ecclesiasticall and temporall within his dominions that shall offend either in faith or manners by fine imprisonment banishment confiscation of landes and goodes attainder of blood death or finally any other temporall paines as the noble princes of this land haue alwaies vsed to doe And therefore Iustice Brian in Decimo of Henry the seauenth doth call the King a mixt person for he is saith Brian a person vnited with the priests of holy Church But I denie him the administration of gods holy sacraments and the exercise of the spirituall sworde which I doe appropriate vnto the ecclesiasticall officers Wherefore much lesse can the Byshoppes in a generall counsell giue away the crownes of their Kinges seeing according to the afore rehearsed rule of the Canon law noe man can giue that right vnto another which he hath not himselfe But if there were ordained a bodie politicke of all the Christian princes and states what they beeing assembled in a counsell generall might doe is annother question the which we will leaue to bee disputed of them that shall see this happe institution And in the meane time they must pardon vs if we doe not lightly beleeue that the Pope hath power to depose Princes seeing wee can finde no warrant therefore neither in the scriptures the auncient counsells the olde fathers the practise of the Church of God neither before Christ neither seauen hundreth years after him although there raigned many Idolatrous hereticall and wicked Princes Of the Iewish Kinges verye few were good but rather such men as GOD had streightly commaunded that they shoulde not spare if they were their Brothers or such a friende as hee looued as dearely as his owne soule but that his hand should bee first vppon him to stone him to death and yet wee doe not reade that any one of them was deposed by the high Priestes or his subiectes armed against him by them And yet were they so zealous men of their dignitie that they would in noe wise suffer the King to vsurpe ought vppon him in so much that one of them openly withstoode Ozias the King The history of king Ozias handled that woulde vnlawfully execute his office in offring incense vnto GOD neither doth the expelling of this King out of the temple by rhe Priestes because God had for his proude part stricken him with leprosie and that thereupon hee sequestred himselfe from companie and left the gouernement of matters of state vnto his sonne prooue ought against the prerogatiue of Princes The text saith 2. Coro 26.20 that they caused hastily to depart thence he was euen compelled to goe out as the English authour of the ecclesiasticall discipline doth inferre For hee was not expelled out of