these Objections First as to that that you do say that you are bound to Conceal your Councels and the Kings secrets that is very true as to your Councels that is your Debates you are bound to conceal them As to the Kings secrets so long as he will have them kept secret you are bound to keep them so too but it doth not deprive the King of the benefit of having it publick if he have a desire for it you don't break your Oath if the King will make it publick you don't make it publick 't is the King does it Then as to that that you do say that you apprehend the common usage of the Kingdom to be a Law that is true Mr. Papillon in some sence a constant and uninterrupted usage goes for a Law among us but I thought I had told you before that both of ancient and later times there have been Examinations of the Witnesses in Court in Cases of this nature and we are not without presidents of it every Year every Term continually from time to time Evidence is heard in Court by the Grand-Jury it is as usual a thing with us as any thing if it be desired nothing more frequent or more common I never heard it deny'd or stood upon by any Grand-Jury in my life till of late here you may be instructed with a thousand presidents for I am sure it is a common and ordinary case upon such occasions if desired to hear the Evidence in Court Look ye Gentlemen as to that care that you have of the Kings affairs the King has reason to take it well that you are so careful for them and that you are so mindful of his concerns he hath a great deal of reason to think well of you for it And Gentlemen consider this that His Majesties Council have certainly considered of this Evidence before they brought this to a publick Enquiry or else it would be a hard thing if they should come raw and not know what the Witnesses can say for though you are the Jury to hear the Witnesses yet you must consider that the Kings Council have Examined whether he hath cause to accuse these persons or not and Gentlemen they understand very well that it will be no prejudice to the King to have the Evidence heard openly in Court or else the King would ne're desire it Foreman My Lord the Gentlemen of the Jury desire that it may be Recorded that we insisted upon it as our Right but if the Court o're rule we must submit to it L. C. J. Here are enough persons to take notice of it to make Records of such things is not usual it is not our business here to record every thing that every man will desire to be Recorded We can Record nothing but what is in Order to the Proceedings but notice enough is taken of it you need not fear but that there will be Witnesses enough L. C. J. North. Gentlemen I must say something to fortifie what my Lord Chief Justice has said If any of us had been of a different opinion we would have spoken it the same thing was stood upon and discoursed on the last Sessions and then all the Judges were of this opinion and in what all the Judges agree to you should acquiesce I must tell you from my own experience where the King will he ought to have it kept secret I have not known it done publiâ—kly in the orderly course of business but I have often known wherâ—… hath been desir'd by those which Prosecute for the King that Evidence hath been given openly and I never knew it deny'd If any of my Brothers think otherwise I desire they would speak but I tell you as to my experience this is the case Mr. Sheriff P. I desire the Witnesses may be kept out of the Court and called one by one L. C. J. It is a thing certainly that the King's Council will not be afraid of doing but Sheriffs do not use to move any thing of this nature in Court and therefore 't is not your Duty Mr. Sheriff to meddle with it Sheriff P. It was my Duty last time my Lord and appointed Mr. Att. Gen. You were acquainted 't was not your Duty last time and you appear against the King Then the Indictment was Read London ss THE Jurors for our Soveraign Lord the King upon their Oaths present that Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury late of the Parish of St. Martins in the Fields in the County of Middlesex as a false Traytor against the most Illustrious and most Excellent Prince our Soveraign Lord Charles the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King his Natural Lord the fear of God in his heart not having nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but being moved and seduced by the Instigation of the Devil the Cordial Love and true due and natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King towards him our said Soveraign Lord the King should and of right ought to bear wholly withdrawing and with all his strength intending the Peace and common Tranquillity in this Kingdom of England to disturb and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King to stir up and move and the Government of our said Soveraign Lord the King within this Kingdom of England to subvert and him our said Soveraign Lord the King from the Title Honour and Regal Name of the Imperial Crown of his Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England and divers other days and times as well before as afterward in the Parish of St. Mary Le-Bow in the Ward of Cheap London Trayterously compassed imagined and intended the Death and Final Destruction of our said Soveraign Lord the King and the ancient Government of his Kingdom of England to change alter and wholly to Subvert and Him our said Soveraign Lord the King from the Title Honour and Kingly Name of his Imperial Crown of this Kingdom of England to Depose and Deprive and War and Rebellion against our said Soveraign Lord the King to move and levy within this Kingdom of England and his said most wicked Treasons and Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfill and perfect he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor with divers Armed men Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King then being maliciously trayterously and advisedly did provide and prepare to be aiding to him the said Earl of Shaftsbury to fulfill and perfect his Treasons aforesaid And his said wicked Treasons Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes the sooner to fulfill and perfect he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor with one John Booth and other Subjects of our said Lord the
King then and there Trayterously assembled met and consulted and the same wicked Treasons and Trayterous compasses imaginations and purposes aforesaid then and there to the said John Booth and other persons to the Jury unknown in the hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly publickly maliciously trayterously and advisedly did say and declare and to perswade and induce the said John Booth to be aiding and assisting in his said Treasons Compasses Imaginations and Purposes he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury as a false Traytor maliciously advisedly and trayterously the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord the King at the Parish and Ward aforesaid within the City of London aforesaid falsly advisedly subtilly maliciously and trayterously said asserted and declared That in a short time the Parliament was to sit at Oxford and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had inspected the Elections and considered the inclinations and dispositions of the generality of the Members of Parliament Elected and that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was satisfied that the Parliament would insist upon three Matters to wit The Bill of Exclusion against the Duke of York the Abolishing the Act of Parliament of the 35th of Queen Elizabeth and the passing of a New Bill for Vniting Protestant Dissenters with divers other good and wholesome Bills To which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury was certain that the Kings Majesty would refuse to give his Royal Assent and therefore he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury did expect that there would be a Division between the Kings Majesty and the Parliament and that many Noble Lords and Worthy Members of the lower House did concur in the same Opinion and they were resolved to insist upon the Passing of those Bills And if the Kings Majesty refused that they meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and the said Noble Lords and Worthy Members had provided strength to compel the Kings Majesty to Grant thereunto And that for his part he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had provided stout men to be Commanded by Captain Wilkinson meaning one Henry Wilkinson one of the Subjects of our said now Soveraign Lord the King of which he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury had agreed that the said John Booth should be one And further The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say That the aforesaid Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and Trayterous Imaginations to fulfill perfect and bring to effect afterwards to wit the said Eighteenth day of March in the Thirty-third year of his said now Majesties Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid within the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege People of our said Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly and publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That our said now Lord the King was a Man of no Faith and that there was no trust in him and that our said Lord the King deserved to be deposed as well as Richard the Second late King of England deserved And further The Jurors aforesaid upon their Oath do say That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid to be fulfilled and perfected and brought to effect the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid in the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Lord the King then and there present openly and publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would never desist until he had brought this Kingdom of England into a Commonwealth without a King and that the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and all those that him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would assist and he knew many that would assist him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury would make England a Commonwealth as Holland was And that he the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and other Traytors unknown would live as in Holland and that he our said Lord the King and all his Family should be rooted out And further The Jurors aforesaid do say That the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury his said wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations aforesaid to be fulfilled perfected and brought to effect afterwards the said 18th day of March in the Three and thirtieth year of his said now Majesty's Reign in the Parish and Ward aforesaid in the City of London aforesaid as a false Traytor in the presence and hearing of divers Liege Subjects of our said Soveraign Lord the King then and there present openly publickly falsly maliciously advisedly and traiterously said asserted published and with a loud voice declared That our now Soveraign Lord the King was a Man of an unfaithful Heart and not worthy to be trusted and not fit to Rule and Govern being false unjust and cruel to his People and if he would not be governed by his People that they meaning him the said Anthony Earl of Shaftsbury and other Traytors to the Jurors unknown our said Soveraign Lord the King would depose against his Allegiance and Duty and against the Peace of our said Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity c. and against the form of the Statute in such case made and provided c. Sir Fr. Withens Gentlemen of the Jury This is an Indictment against the Earl of Shaftsbury I shall not trouble you to open the Indictment because the Evidence will be somewhat long I shall only tell you which way we shall go L. C. J. North. I do not know whether you desire the Witnesses should be Examin'd apart do you desire that Gentlemen L. C. J. If you do desire it Gentlemen they shall for Mr. Sheriff hath nothing to do with it but if you do desire it you shall have the Witnesses call'd one at a time and all the rest shall be put out of the Court. Jury My Lord It is our desire L. C. J. We did deny it to Mr. Sheriff because we are to keep Men within their Duty Here it is not his Duty to meddle with any thing of this nature Foreman My Lord We desire we may have a List of their Names and that they may be put apart that they may not hear what one another say Sir Fr. Withens My Lord There is one part I would open L. C. J. There is no need for it at all You shall have their Names told you as they are call'd Mr. Harrison My Lord We pray we may have a List of their Names L. C. J. If you desire it you may have it but it will be no advantage for you
Gentlemen that came out of the Country were well provided with Horse Arms and Men to oppose him and that they might lawfully do it if the King offered any Violence to them whilst they sat and that the Nation stood by them and that they did represent the Nation and that for his part he and all his Friends would do it to the utmost of their Power and as Old as he was he would be one that would oppose it to his power My Lord said I we can expect nothing but Confusion from this Parliament in this Nature for then we shall be involved in another Civil-War nothing else can put an end to our Miseries or make this Nation a settled Nation but a Civil-War Then my Lord said I by this means wee shall make an end of Monarchy or else inslave the Nation to Popery for ever No doubt of one say's he but we are sure of one for the Nation is of our side and the City you know how they are and where ever they Strike I am sure the Nation will and this I 'le stand and dye by This is the substance of what I have to say against my Lord Shaftsbury and upon the Oath I have taken I am sure I have not added a Word One Word more I have to say 'T is reported I have been hired and Suborn'd I do admire why this City of London where there are as worthy men and as great Lovers of the King and Government as any in the World should say any such thing I was never Suborn'd by them nor never took a farthing of their money nor never took a farthing of the King in my life L. C. J. Who supposes it Mr. Smith 'T is in print my Lord 't was in the Book that came out last night it is suppos'd my Lord for it is in print L. C. J. I had reason to expect that there was no such objection Brian Haines Mr. Sanders Give your knowledge of what discourse you have heard concerning my Lord Shaftsbury Mr. Haines Sir I have heard him Villifie the King very often and he told me about the Narrative that I made about Sir Edmond-Bury Godfrey's death Mr. Ivey and I went to him one day and he spoke to me of it and I desired him not to expose my person to the King's Anger for I was sure he would never grant a pardon to any man that impeached the Earl of Danby Say's he Do not fear if he doth not grant you a pardon he makes himself the Author of the Plot and say's he the Earl of Essex my Lord Maxfield and I wee do all resolve if you put in writing we will go to the King and beg a pardon of his Majesty for you and if he doth not grant it we will raise the whole Kingdom against him for say's he he must not expect to live peaceably in his Throne if he doth not grant it For he makes himself author of the Plot. My Lord said I he hath dissolved so many Parliaments for the sake of the Earl of Danby and prorogued so many Parliaments therefore he will never grant me this Pardon Say's he doe not fear 't is the best pretence we can have in the world and if you will but put in writing and let me read it that I may give my opinion of it the work is done and if he doth not do it we are prepar'd to raise Arms against him I was with him another time after I made this Narrative and he told me the two Mr. Godfrey's were with the King at Windsor and begged a pardon of his Majesty for me but the King would not grant it but if he be an honest man let him lye at my mercy let him come in and declare what he knows Said I I would not have your Lordship expose my cause in these day's This is the best time for it in the world say's he if he doth not do it he can't expect to be long King of England Pray my Lord said I what shall I do in the mean time I will go beyond Sea said I. No sayes he don't leave the Kingdom he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you I desir'd him a second time not to expose me to the King's fury and I prayed him to help me to a little money to go beyond Sea for I was sure I could not be safe in England Sayes he Have a care of your self but sayes he he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you Then I was in close conference with him one day and I gave him so exact an account of all Transactions from King Charles the First 's Reign the commencement or coming to the Crown to this very day that he was mightily satisfied finding by me that I was a Traveller he was mightily pleased and free with me Pray my Lord what Model do you take or intend to do Sayes he Do you not think but there are Families in England that have as great pretences to the Crown as the King Sayes he there is the Duke of Bucks in the right of his Mother she was descended from Edward one of the Edwards and in her Right he claimes the Barony of Ross he hath as great a Right to the Crown of England as ever any Stewart of them all Jury Speak that again Mr. Haines I was in Conference with my Lord Shaftsbury one day and I gave him an exact account of all Transactions and I asked what they did intend to do with the Government if they pull'd the King down Sayes he Do you think there are no Families in England that have as much pretence to the Crown as any of the Stewarts I know none my Lord sayes he there is the Duke of Bucks that is descended of the Family of the Plantagenets he named some of the Edwards and in her right he should have the Barony of Ross and in her Right he has as good a Title to the Crown of England as ever any Stewart had John Macnamarra Sworn Sir Francis Withins Pray give an account to the Jury of what discourse you have had with my Lord Shaftsbury John Macnamarra My Lord I was with my Lord Shaftsbury a little before he went to Oxford before the Parliament sat there and my Lord told me at that time that he would take care together with those that were with him at Oxford for the Witnesses that were concerned in the Popish Plot. Mr. Harrison Speak out pray Sir John Macnamarra My Lord told me he would take care with those that were with him for the Witnesses that were concern'd in the Popish Plot after my Lord went to Oxford I writ him a Letter giving his Lordship to understand That whereas his Lordship was pleased to promise that he would take care of the Witnesses that he would be pleased to take care of me as well as the rest of the Witnesses after my Lord came home from Oxford I went to him to see what was done His Lordship was pleased
to express himself and say That the King was Popishly affected and did adhere to Popery and that he took the same methods that his Father before him took which brought his Father's Head to the block and we will also bring his thither and told me also That he told some Persons of Quality that this would fall out Five years before at the same time my Lord told me That there was a Collection of Money made and that the meeting was at the Sun Tavern and that there came a Tory Lord in to hinder their proceedings but sayes he we do remove to Iron-monger-Lane and sayes he you shall hear further in a fortnight I came to my Lord a fortnight afterwards and his Lordship was pleased to tell me that there was provision made for the Witnesses and that it was in the hand of one Mr. Rowse that was Servant to Sir Thomas Player there was one Mr. Ivey and I think my Brother was by too when his Lordship spake these words he said that the King was a Faithlessman that there was no Credit to be given to him and that the Dutchess of Mazarine was his Cabinet Council who was the worst of Woman-kind This is all that I have to say my Lord. Sir Francis Withins Do you remember nothing at any other time John Macnamarra No. Sir Francis Withins Did you hear any thing about deposing the King John Macnamarra Yes he did at the same time say the King deserved to be deposed as much as ever King Richard the Second did Dennis Macnamarra Mr. Sanders Tell these Gentlemen whether you have had any discourse with the Earl of Shaftsbury Dennis Macnamarra He said my Lord that the King was a man that ought not to be believed and there was no belief in him and that he ought to be deposed as well as King Richard the Second and that the Dutchess of Mazarine was one of his Cabinet Council and that he did nothing but by her Advice Sir Francis Withins Begin again L. C. J. Raise your voice a little for the Jury don't hear you Dennis Macnamarra That the King is a man that ought not to be believed that there was no belief in him and that he ought to be deposed as well as King Richard the 2d and that the Dutchess of Mazarine was his Cabinet Council and that he did nothing but by her consent L. C. J. Who was with you at that time Dennis Macnamarra There was Mr. Ivey and my Brother at his own House L. C. J. When was this Dennis Macnamarra 'T was at the latter end of March or the beginning of April Sir Francis Withins You say Mr. Ivey was by at the same time Dennis Macnamarra Yes Sir Francis Withins Call Mr. Ivey Jury What place was it in D. Macnamarra In his own house Edward Ivey sworn Mr. Ivey My Lord soon after the Parliament was dissolv'd at Oxford I was at my Lord Shaftsbury's house where he was speaking against the King and said that he was an unjust man and unfit to Reign and that he was a Papist in his heart and would introduce Popery Jury Say that again Mr. Ivey I tell you I was at my Lord Shaftsbury's house where he was then speaking against the King saying that he was altogether unjust and not fit to Reign and he wonder'd he did not take example by his Father before him and did really believe that he was a Papist in his heart and intended to introduce Popery I was sometime after with him and I told him one Haines had told me he had something to discover about the death of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey and several other things and my Lord desired to see him and I brought Mr. Haines to his house and he desired him that what he had to say he would put in Writing and he should have a Pardon and that if the King did deny it as he dares not deny it but if he does we will rise upon him and force him Sir Francis Withins Had you any other discourse at other times Mr Ivey Yes I had other discourse but not to this purpose Sir Francis Withins Was you frequently with him Mr. Ivey I was frequently with him he desir'd at the time I was with him to bid Colledge to come to him and I went and came again to Haines with instructions how to proceed and I took his examination of him and carry'd it to my Lord and he desired it might be explain'd what he meant by the Tall Black-Man and says he if he does mean the King he must explain himself and speak of the King or the Duke of York or the rest and if he does we will take care of him as long as he lives but unless he does we will do nothing for him and I was with him with my Lord Shaftsbury and my Lord Shaftsbury did exclaim against the King Sir Francis Withins What words did he speak Mr. Ivey He said he was altogether an unjustMan and not fit to Reign and that he believed he was a Papist in his heart and design'd to Introduce Popery and therefore they design'd to depose him and set up another in his stead Sir Francis Withins Do you remember any discourse of Richard the Second at that time Mr. Ivey No Sir I do not remember any thing of it Bernard Dennis Sworn Sir Francis Withins Pray tell the Jury what discourse you had with the Earl of Shaftsbury at any time and what it was B. Dennis My Lord I came upon a design to make cleer the Plot in General as far as I have travell'd as in Ireland France Spain Maryland Virginia and England and upon that account I was brought before a Justice of the Peace in Westminster in November last this time 12 month and Examin'd before Justice Walcup a Justice of the Peace and from thence to the Committee of the House of Commons of whom Collonel Birch I believe he is here was Chair-man and gave in my Evidence and being called upon at the Tryal of the Earl of Stafford I was commended as I suppose to the Earl of Shaftsbury and upon the Account he sent me word of it by William Hetherington who was then very intimate with the Earl of Shaftsbury to my knowledge and William Hetherington came to me several times and he precisely was my maintainer at that time that is to find me what ever I wanted and provide me my Lodging and carry me to some place where accommodation might be more better for me Upon this account one time the Earl of Shaftsbury sent to me desiring that I would wait upon him at his own house I came to him and there in the Gallery of his own house walking very slowly he told me what I gave in of the Plot in general was very good and sufficient but as to the Queen and the Duke of York that I should speak more home and positive against them at least that I might be a corroboration to others in what they Swore against them
This was all at that present time that the Earl of Shaftsbury spake to me and he desired me to go home to his Lodgings With that I went home and within a Month it may be or thereabouts he sent for me again by the same William Hetherington and William Hetherington told me that the Earl of Shaftsbury would speak with me So I came and Waited upon his Lordship at his own House and say's he Mr. Dennis I understand that you are a Clergy man Yes my Lord said I. And say's he I would advise you to take a black gown and I will preferr you to a Benefice till such time as this business is over and says he at the end of this business I will not fail to preferr you to a better and in the mean time I would advise you to take a black gown and this was a little as I remember after the Parliament was Dissolv'd at Oxford and he sent a Gentleman out of his own House along with me to a Doctor of Divinity living hard by Lincolns-Inn Fields Dr. Burnet by Name as I remember and the Gentleman acquainted the Doctor what I was and about what occasion I came there so the Doctor indeed discoursed with me very familiarly and rend'red thanks to the Earl for me into his conversation rather then another's What discourse we had then was nothing to the matter it was about matters of Conscience and Religion But Mr. Colledge that was the Joyner here in Town and Executed afterwards being familiar with me brought me to one Mr. Ferguson a Minister as I suppose of the Presbyterian form for he goes in their garb as near as I can tell and Mr. Ferguson at our first meeting was in Richard's Coffee-House in an upper room one pair of stairs and in some company and Colledge going to him brought him aside and spake to him concerning me and he came to me apart and discours'd with me from whence he brought me to a Bookseller's Shop and bought for me the Articles of the Church of England and in all these discourses there was a hand as Colledge told me of the Earl of Shaftsbury who did procure him and sent to Dr. Burnet to bring me that way I do not deny neither that I had an inclination before I left Ireland and when I was in Spain and when I was in France for to become a Protestant according to the Laws and Rules of the Church of England The force of what I have to say is this The Earl of Shaftsbury one day after all these things were past and after the Parliament were dissolved at Oxford discoursing with me in his own House Major Manley being in the same Room then who lives beyond Tower-hill he asked me what was the present occasion I came to him there and it was pretty early in the Morning and the Earl had a Barber to trim him in his Room I told him my occasion was then That I was something low in Money that I did a little want money at that time and did not know to whom to speak for any thing but his Lordship and said I came to tell you so Well say'd he Mr. Dennis I have appointed Mr. Rouse John Rouse whom you know for to give you and maintain you in money go to him especially once a week and he will give you money And said he Mr. Dennis what is the Number of your name in the Country as near as you can tell how many are you My Lord said I to tell you exactly what number they be of I cannot at present but within a little time I may tell you I believe really there may be upon the matter 3 or 400 able men of my Name in the County where I was born Say's the Earl of Shaftsbury Mr. Dennis I would very willingly have you to advise those of your name and those of your Friends for to be in a readiness when ever occasion shall serve and to stand by if occasion should be for to assist the Commonwealth of England for we do really intend to have England under a Common-wealth and no Crown and say's he we intend to live as we see Holland does that is to have a Commonwealth and to have no Supream head particular man say's he or King nor owe Obedience to a Crown and say's he we will extirpate the King and all his Family as near as he can and Mr. Dennis say's he I do admire that your Nation should be such Fools as they are for it is very certain that King James Queen Elizabeth King Charles the First say's he and the King that now is does wrong you to very destruction and say's he if you had been under a Common-wealth the Common-wealth would take more pitty of your Nation and the Gentry of your Nation then any doe of them now in this time wherein the King Governs and upon this I doe count the Irish fools This is all that I can say L. C. J. The King's Council declare they will call no more Witnesses for they think they have called enough already and there are several of them that doe swear Words that are treasonable in themselves if you do desire to ask any of the Witnesses any thing you shall have them all call'd one by one Fore-man My Lord we will walk up again and Consider what Questions to ask and come again presently Mr. Papillon It seems they will call no more Witnesses then these L. C. J. Not against the Earl of Shaftsbury being you are charg'd only with that Mr. Papillon It is so my Lord but we pray we may be satisfyed upon the Statute the Indictment is grounded because we may hear it read before we go up because your Lordship speak's of two different Statutes the 25th of Edward and you mention the Statute of the 13th of this King your Lordship in your discourse to the Jury mentioned them both we pray your Lordship to acquaint us upon what Statute it is grounded whether upon both or one of them L. C. J. Look ye Gentlemen this is grounded upon the Statute of this King though there is enough to find an Indictment of Treason upon the Statute of the 25th of Edward the Third that which is Treason within the Statute of the 25th of Edward the Third is Treason within this Statute so this is the more Copious Statute for as I told you before this Statute has enlarged that of Edward the Third in a great many Particulars and therefore look ye Gentlemen always consider this when one Statute contains the Matter of another and inlarges it the Indictment is always upon the last Statute that being the more Copious Statute But you are to Consider both L. C. J. Nor. The Indictment is Contra formam Statut ' and it being Contra formam Statut ' it may be understood Statutorum or Statuti so that all Statutes that may be the Foundation of this Indictment you may go upon Jury We desire to know whether any