better Sacrifice then hee he should have beene condemned of his owne conscience for the way was never the worse for Caines miscarriage And the way that Jacob walked in was the way of God though the sonnes of Jacob sinned They were godly and holy men in the maine though they missied it in selling their brother And did not God visit them in mercy to bring them to a sight of their sinnes when he caused their sheafs to bow downe to Josephs sheafe in Egypt and caused Joseph to afflict them to put them in minde of their sinne yea did it not worke that good effect upon them for which the Lord sent it by causing them to accuse themselves saying we are verily guilty concerning our brother in that wee saw the anguish of his soule when hee besought us and wee would not heare therefore this evill is come upon us Nay did not God further illustrate Josephs glory before them not only by making all their sheafes to bow downe to his sheafe but in letting it be seene that the Sun and the Moone and the eleaven starres fell downe before him when they all went downe into Egypt wee will not deny but that the sonnes of Jacob did fatally miscarry yet the way of God wherein they walked was not therefore to be abhorred and yet their miscarriages are set before us all as land-markes that we should take heede of running upon such shelves And I hope these Apologists have not forsaken the wayes of truth for the miscarriages of some that have walked in the way before them for you say they have beene active for their way since And I hope that they know that the way was Christs though Judas betrayed his Master Annanias and Saphira discembled and Symon Magus was proud and one of the Church of Corinth committed fornication and Demas forsook the way and embraced the world and Diotrephus Antichrist like sought for preheminence and many Balaamites crept into their society who preached for wages and if any should have said that the way of the Gospel was not the way of Christ because these persons and such as these did miscarry it would have discovered great ignorance in them for though they were spots in their feasts of charity yet the Church of God had alwaies power to cast them out and that without the helpe of a Synod which hath beene proved at large in my answer to your booke against Independency and Tolleration So that though the Saints of God who are chosen vessells unto him should faile as Peter did in denying his Master through the slavish feare that hee was in of that company of Priests which Crucified Christ in that time and the beleeving Corinths wrought upon to eate things sacrifised to Idolls according to the doctrine of Balaam as some of the Church of Pergamus and Thyatira were yet notwithstanding these personall infirmities the way of God wherein they walked ought not to bee abhorred but wee are to make the same use of these fatall miscarriages now as the people of God were to make then of the miscarriages of Noah Abraham Lot David Soloman Hezekiah and divers others and not to runne upon the same shelves And though these Apologists abhorred the miscariages of those that went before them in the way of Seperation yet by your report they still follow the way and so they ought for we are commanded to walke in the way of good men and to keepe the paths of the righteous But some may say can those be called righteous men that so miscarry We affirme still that the way is a righteous way and if any man that desireth from his heart to walke uprightly in it faile through infirmity hee hath an advocate with the father Jesus Christ the rihgteous and needeth not to goe to a Pope or a Synod for a pardon of his sinne Some peradventure will say you will have the Saints to bee subject to no Law If the Saints breake a just Law they must submit to the sensure of that Law if they breake their Covenant and violate it in sinning openly against any of the rules of Jesus Christ which hee hath given to his Church they are subject to bee sensured by the Church for the law was made for the disobedient But those that walke holily against such there is no law Magistrates were given for the punishment of evill doers and not onely so but for the praise of those that doe well and these are the two parts of the Magistrats duty which if they neglect they must answer it to God who sitteth in the Assembly of the Gods and weigheth all their proceedings And now what have you got by the Apologists declaration that they have observed the failings of the people of God You have meerely bewrayed your owne ignorance for if you had knowledge you might have made a better use of their speech You say their fourth thing that is good is their discription of the people of the Church of England I conceive they speake of some of whom they had hope because they conceived them to be plyable to receive what is brought them for truth and also capable to discerne error in some measure so it appeareth that if they preach errour the people are capable to discerne it But to leave this as a thing that doth not much concerne us that are Separates I will borow leave to paraphrase a little upon your applycation which you make of the miscariages of the Separation You say you would have had the Apologists to have made use of these mens fearfull sinnes to have deterd them from their way and you nominate Brown Boulton Barrow Smith and Jonson But here you commit two evills First you insinuate a slander against the dead Secondly you would have men forsake the the way of God for other mens failings For the first you speake of their fearfull sinnes but you mention nothing The greatest sin that ever I heard any of them accused withall was their going backe to communicate with the Churches of England and Rome which was a great sin indeed for Idolatry is as the sin of witchcraft and to speake the truth this is that great principle which hath caused so much division among the Separation You refer us to the stories of Brown Boulton Barrow Smith and Jonson I pray you Mr. Edwards what Stories are those and what are their fearfull sinnes therein mentioned It may be you mean some lying popish stories made by some trencher Poets for Prelates like the stories made by Mercurius Alicus at Oxford and some of those stories are by those who are best informed taâ—â—n to be like this booke of yours And like a booke written by Mr. Peter Studley my old Parish Priest which he wrote divers yeares agoe against the Professors in the Church of England concerning Enoch Abevan who because he was mad and in his madnes killed his Mother and his Brother this Mr. Studley called by the
honest party Study-ly inveighed against that way of profession and nonconforming as you doe against the way of Separation And touching the Apologists silence in not declaring the priciples which were the causes of the divisions I Answer It may be they did not perfectly see them But I pray you tell me how you dare charge all these men you have mentioned with fearfull sinnes If the sinnes were so fearfull which Brown and Jonson were guilty of the one in stepping backe to the Church of England for feare of persecution The other to the Church of Rome for feare of nullifying his baptisme because he had it in a false Church thinking that there could be no true Ordinance in any respect in a false Church and so was constrained through want of faith and light to justifie the Church of Rome and her daughters as Mr. Samuel Rutherford hath done tell me Mr. Edwards what case are you in then if their cases were so fearfull in justifying your Churches For surely upon your owne principles these were vertues to justifie your false Churches to be true Smiths you may know was of another nature for he went from the Churches of the Separation because he judged them unbaptised persons and that was his ignorance But what have you against Mr. Barrow Was there ever any thing justly layd to this Separates charge Hee was indeed hanged at Tyburne for maintaining That the Church of England was a false Church and so was Mr. Greenwood who was his companion and fellow Prisoner though there was no matter of fact layd to either of their Charge worthy of death or bonds These two men were put to death by the Prelates in Queen Elizabeths time without her knowledge or privity and that Early in a morning the figure of their sufferings being seen in the Sky by Mariners that were in other parts and it was supposed by the beholders of the figure then to be done in England because of the women's wearing of hats for the two poore widowes that attended upon them in the Prison waited upon them to the Gallowes bearing their winding sheets the figure of all which was seen as was said before But this was done without the Queens knowledge the greife whereof by relation of those who were neer her shee carried to her death Honest Penry suffered death about the same time he was hanged at Saint Thomas a wattrings Early in the morning And who dare say ought against these men but that they lived Saints where Sathans throne was and dyed as holy Martyrs of Jesus Christ as Antipas And it may be these are the fearfull judgements you meane befell them for no other judgements befell them in this life and they shall be freed from judgement in the life to come But such false miracles you Priests worke as hath beene told you at large in my answer to your booke against Tolleration to make all the world wonder and runne after the Beast saying who is like unto the beast who is able to make warr with him But why did you not say that those were fearfull judgements of God which came upon the Martyrs who were burnt in Smithfeild in Queen Maries time they suffered for the same cause as far as they saw then and the sentence against them as it came from the seat of the Magistrate came from heaven as well as the sentence against Barrow and Greenwood and Penry and all the rest of the people of God If you will deny this you will deny Queen Mary to be a lawfull Magistrate for the secular powers passed the sentence of condemnation then as in Queen Elizabeths time for when the preists once had cryed that such and such of the Saints were guilty then the Magistrates passed the sentence that so the Preists hands might be clensed from their bloud as witnesse Mr. Foxes booke But to leave these holy Saints at rest with God I will speake something of those that are living both the people of the Separation and the people of the Church of England As touching the people of the Separation they are all visibly holy If any root of bitternesse is seene to spring up amongst them it is cast out But you would intimate that the casting out of a sinner is a strong division or else what doe you mean by the strong divisions you speake of for there is no other division of the Separation but the separating the pretious from the vile That was a strong division which was made in the Church of Corinth when they cast out the incesteous person but it was a true holy and just division because God required it and they were not to keepe the feast of the Lord till they had made that division For if they had it would not have beene for the better but for the worse For they ought not to have kept the feast with old Leven Such holy divisions you seldome or never make in the Church of England neither indeed can you being all in confusion therefore you were not capable to pick motes out of other mens eyes for as much as the beames were so bigg in your owne And whereas those that commit sinne in the Churches of Christ are cast out and remaine no longer there and are not admitted againe without repentance The members of the Church of England committing sinne yea being common and ordinary and knowne sinners yet they are forced to be still of your Church or else they shall be punished yea though they commit sinne worthy of death and be condemned by the sentence of the Magistrat yet remain they uncast out of your Church as appeareth by giving the Sacrament to Theeves and Murderers when they are going to the Gallowes be they never so impenitent It may be objected This is a false charge for wee doe not now admit all to the Sacrament wee are about reforming The Church of England was never so deformed for the most part of the Kingdome as it is now yet there is not the worst Parish of the Church of England but it hath the Sacrament still by which actions the Priests become open violaters of Gods Commandements and that against their owne knowledge in casting Gods holy things to dogs yea the best in England that taketh upon him a Parish charge is guilty of this sinne actually in sealing the seed of wicked men with Baptisme yea and all men in the Church of England are guilty thereof that consent thereunto though it be but with silence But how can it be said that any of the people of the Church of England are wicked seeing they are all members of the Church for the dogs and enchanters c. are without Revel. 22.15 By this it appeareth what manner of Church the Church of England is even such a one as Mr. Henry Barrow hath discribed it to be long agoe for if you please to read but his discovery of a false Church which he wrote in prison you shall
A NEW-YEARES-GIFT OR A BRIEF EXHORTATION To Mr. Thomas Edwards That he may breake off his old sins in the old yeare and begin the New yeare with new fruits of Love first to GOD and then to his BRETHREN PSAL. 7.14 15 16. Behold hee travelleth with iniquity and hath conceived mischiefe and brought forth falshood He made a pit and digged it and is fallen into the ditch which he made His mischeife shall returne upon his owne head and his violent dealing shall come downe upon his owne pate PSAL. 50.19 20 21. Thou givest thy mouth to evill and thy tongue frameth deceit Thou sittest and speakest against thy Brother Thou slanderest thine owne Mothers Sonne These things hast thou done and I kept silence thou thoughtest that I was altogether such a one as thy selfe but I will reproove thee and set them in order before thine eyes By KATHRINE CHIDLEY Printed in the Yeare 1645 The Introduction or Epistle To the Godly Reader THe cause which formerly moved mee to Answer Mr. Edwards his first Booke was First the frothinesse of his reasons for when I saw them light I thought a man of understanding would not medle with them because they were so rotten they could not hold together And I conceived that if hee were not answered at all he would then have abounded in vaine glory Secondly the hearing of the disturbance it made in the City the better party being greived that hee so discovered himselfe and the worser party domineering that Mr. Edwards was become their Champion moved me to take into consideration the difficulty and finding his booke to be as indeede it was a rangling-insinuating contradictory revengefull story it appeared unto me to be a taske most befitting a woman The consideration whereof moved me to answer it publikely as it was published And forasmuch as it plainely appeareth that this his second booke or Antipologie is of the same nature with his other and hath no more substance then it I doe affirme It was answered before it was written for it consisteth for the most part of tales and reports it is an unsavory history full of revengeful-slaunderous-accusations but abounding with reprochful jeeres and evill calumniations But I have now noted some things therein which concerne my selfe and all who feare God and walke in his way I meane the way of Separation that way which Paul walked in which way was then called herisie and so is still by Mr. Edwards and such as he Both I and my faithfull yoakefellow have joyntly tasted of the pressures of the Hyrarchy above these twenty yeares and the Bishops-Priests have driven us out of our place of abode 16. yeares agoe and we amongst the rest of the people of God are now prosecuted afresh by Mr. Edwards and such as he for he hath unjustly charged them to bee the movers of sedition and distubers of the Kingdomes By all which it appeareth that it concerneth the Separation principally to take notice of Shimies cursings and Rabshakes raylings and not only to consider that it may be God hath bidden them so doe but also to declare that what they doe is unjust which was one cause that moved me to endeavour according to my skill to unmaske the faces of those ungrounded arguments against Independencie and Tolleration in his former booke which I answered three yeares agoe And though he hath not ability to defend or relieve any one of those his arguments against Separation yet he chargeth others with neglect in not answering his first borne against that way in which booke he declared that though it was the first brought forth yet not the first conceived for that he had large tractates to put forth against the whole way of Separation I have waited these three yeares for the bringing of them forth but now it seemes to me It was a false conception Moreover I suppose that Mr. Edwards his painefull labouring thus ariseth out of feare least as Christ is exalted and as the hill of Syon appeareth more eminently then the Priests wil be in danger to loose some maintenance as hee hath in part expressed in his former booke * where he speaketh of their demanding dues And true it is that people rightly informed will not have their necks captivated under Jewish yoakes of tithes paying to maintaine a popish-ordained-Clergie for God requireth his people to maintaine no Ministry but their owne even such as labour with them in the word and doctrine and not those who labour against them And I know right well that the Ministers of the Separation have never beene chargeable to the Church of England neither have any of their poore Orphans beene left to any of her Parishes though their parents have suffered death in prison by the cruelty of the Prelates as I could name divers within these 10. yeares yet God turned his hands upon the little ones and provided for them according to his promise * so that as the righteous parents were never forsaken neither did their seede beg their bread And Remember good Reader that though Balack would have had the people of God cursed and Baalam would faine have had the wages yet at length he was constrayned to confesse that surely there was no inchantment against Jacob neither divination against Israel but according to this time saith he it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel what hath God wrought Behold the people shall rise up as a great Lyon lift up himselfe as a young Lyon he shall not lie downe untill he eate of the Prey and drinke the blood of the slaine Numb. 23. verse 23 24. K. C. A BRIEF EXHORTATION to Mr. Tho Edwards that he may breake off his old sins in the old yeare and begin the new yeare with new fruits of Love first to God and then to his Brethren Mr. EDVVARDS THe causes of my writing unto you at this time are three 1. Your threatnings 2. Your challenge 3. The out-cryes of the people against you for that which you delivered in Pulpits * where they expected to heare the Gospel of Jesus Christ Preached by you in stead whereof they heare proud boastings that you will after your skirmishing with the Separation take their Fort But peradventure you may by your fishing for others be caught your selfe Now our fort and fortresse is Jesus Christ and though you take him you shall never take him from us for he is all fulnesse to all and sufficiencie for all that draw neere unto him But whether you intend so to take him as to rest upon him or to take him as the High Priests Officers once tooke him to crucifie him let your hearers judge Sir you are a brave warriour and can fight well in a Pulpit where you are sure none shall come neere you so much as to give you an answer for proofe whereof witnesse your owne confession in your Antipologia that the Separatists will not come in your Churches Therefore you may easily make the people beleeve great
matters by your juggling where there is none to resist you nor hold out the light in opposition to your false figures But if they were there they might not be admitted there to opose you nor to use any meanes to undeceive the people But it is an old saying though somewhat grosse that every cocke croweth on his owne miksen and that makes you so bold where you are sure you shall have no oposition But Mr. Edwards now I will counsell you to muster up all your army you bragge of and come forth set up your colours and pitch a field with the Separation bring forth all your strong reasons not only the last conceived your latter thoughts and studies but also your large tractates against the whole way of Separation which were the first conceived of old which you promised in your former booke * for you have brought no argument in your Antipologia against Separation from a false Church and false Ministry but you have challenged all high and low Anabaptists Separatists and Semiseparates c. to bring a ground from Scripture for the lawfulnesse of seperating from a true Church which thing wee never strived for for we know it is utterly unlawfull But this was your policie especially when you preached upon the house top to make the people beleeve that those who seperate from the Church of England seperate from a true Church But this is yours to prove I therfore challenge you now to prove by the Scripture that the Church of England is a true Church and the Ministry thereof a true Ministry and that they have a true outward calling which yet you have not done neither have you brought any argument neither in your former booke nor in this Antipologia that proves your Church and Ministry true And I thinke you dare not deny but that these bee substantialls and not some of your meere circumstances which you would have decided without the word of God * for if the Church be but a circumstance and the calling of the ministry a meere circumstance then you neede not stand so much for it and upon ordination from the Pope for if ever you be true Ministers of Jesus Christ it must be without that and therefore it appeareth to bee you who have ordination by persons that are not ordained and not the Ministers of the Separation for God hath ordained his Church to ordaine their owne Ministers but hath not ordained the Church of England nor the Ministry thereof at all wherefore it appeareth that you can have no true ordination unlesse you become Separate And all your arguments in your former booke tended to the keeping downe of the kingdome and power of Jesus Christ And all the tales which you tell in your Antipologia tend to the defaming of your Brethren as they came from you But as your tales are in themselves many of them turne to the praise of those whom you would defame As for instance you tell us of their humility and that they say that they dare not take upon them to determine all the waies of God For ought I know they doe well for the Prophet David who was not onely a King but a Prophet of God and a man after Gods owne heart thought not himselfe sufficient for that worke of universall determining which you may plainely see in the 119. Psalme where he so often desireth of the Lord to teach him his waies statutes precepts commandements testimonies lawes and to direct him in his word yet David refresh not there but strikes Covenant with God promising that he will run the waies of Gods commandements when hee hath learned them * and also that he would teach others when the Lord had taught him even as you say these men have done for you report that they are active for their way Now if God have made knowne his way to them more fully then he hath done heretofore they ought to be more active for it and as God enlargeth their hearts so to enlarge his praise You tell us of a sort of Anabaptists that would preach on the top of houses because they would imitate the Apostles But have you not now taken their turne for these men as you say even the Apologists with divers others have of late preached not only to the Parliament but also to the people in divers places which you name as Margrets Westminster Michaell Cornewell Magâ—es at the bridge foot and Stepney with other places These men I say preaching true doctrine there in the eares of the people you have published it as it were upon the house top for you have put them in print that so we that are Separatists who dare not come to your Church and all the men in England may know it And you have threatned to print them at large * You say their doctrines make for their way and they are active for their way Indeede Mr. Edwards though Gods waies be not as mens waies yet when men make Gods waies their waies they ought to be active for the same for they are the waies of peace the waies of truth and the waies of life and though they are narrow waies because there is no rule leading unto them but the Word of God yet he that is guided by Gods spirit shall bee led into all truth Therefore it is good for you and all persons to labour to be clothed with humility for God hath promised to teach the humble his waies You say there are foure passages in the Apologeticall Narration which are good and usefull amongst so many bad Therefore wee will consider of these which are good usefull amongst those which you say are bad The first being their acknowledgement of the Parliament Herein I conceive they give Caesar his due The second of the Assembly of Divines They did not give them the Title of a Synod nor atribute authority to them to determine for the Church of Christ lawes rites or cerimonies c. For I thinke they did not understand them to have or to be capable of any such power from God for if these had knowne they had assumed it they would not as I thinke have beene of them The third is their taking notice of the miscarriages of the Separatists In this they did very well and made a good use thereof as I may judge from your owne speeches concerning their way and I pray you tell me Mr. Edwards for what end were the miscariages of Gods people written by the direction of Gods spirit but to warne others of the Saints from falling into the like for wherefore did God at any time punish his people for their Sinnes but to recall them back that so he might bee reconciled unto them againe but never to deterre them from his holy waies wherein they walked before or when they practised those miscarriages If Adam should have offered no more sacrifice because Caine fell out with his Brother for offering a
see there he hath proved the Church of England to be as the Church of Rome is even Babylon a filthy cage of all unclean and hatefull birds But rather then you will take Mr. Barrowes advice and the counsell of the Holy Ghost to come from among them you will sooner helpe to hang all such Barrowes and then say it is the judgement of God upon them for none hath beene more forward then your selfe to persecute the Lords people as appeareth by your Writ of Ne admittas which you sent to the Parliament to keep the Petitions of the poore Saints out thence But it will not be for the Parliaments safety to take such wicked counsell as yours I hope the Parliament seeth by this time that God is making inquisition for bloud yea for the blrud of the Saints And therefore it is better that all sinne which hath beene committed should be repented of then that more should be added to the stock By all this you may see that the 4. things in the Apollogie which you say are good are good for us but not for you And if you had not beene benumed in your spirit you would never have taken up against us such weapons which if you had beene sensible you might have known would have come positively against your selfe But these tales which you tel in your Antipologia are like unto some of your tales which you tell the people in the Pulpit for there you say you will face the Separation and they will flie away but you are shrewdly mistaken For I who am one of the meanest dare give you the meeting and I hope to speed as well as I did when I met that ragged Regiment which you set out against Independency and Toleration which you called your Scout in your 8th Reason against Independency and joyned and subjoyned forces against Tolleration Moreover you say in your Antipologia that the Anabaptists cast away thir baptisme received in a false Church because they wil not put a new peice to an old garment And upon the same ground you say the Separation would have the Materiall Churches pulled down If this be one of the Anabaptists grounds as it may be it is then you may see their mistake For they ought to discerne between Baptisme in a false Church which is an Ordinance of God wch that Church hath stollen carried away in their Apostacie they ought I say to put a difference betwixt that and an Idol of their owne making as for example The circumcision which Jeroboam caried with him was Gods but the Calves were his owne Daggan and his Temple was the Philistems but the Arke was Gods And therefore if the Separates desire the pulling down of the Idols Temples they doe well but if these high places stand they will be no peice sowed to their garments for they touch them not But they have not been more forward in this good worke of the pulling downe of the Idols Temples then your self in writing to the Parliament for a whole and totall Reformation because they should not be blemished you would have them to pull downe the high places and all Idols and Idolatry as whosoever readeth your Epistle to your booke against Independency may see at large where your reasonable arguments are set down to the Parliament for that end and purpose But the Anabaptists have no such ground to put away their Baptisme which they received in a false Church as hath beene proved before The Calves and high places of Jeroboam were to be done away and it was their duty to demolish them because they were a curse to the Land and Idols of his owne making as hath beene said before But the Circumcision which was Gods which they carried away with them they brought againe to Gods Temple as wee have done our Baptisme and were accepted By all which it appeareth that you are able to lay no errour to the chage of the Separation Moreover in this your Antipologie you advance and extoll your booke against Independencie and Tolleration You say that the Apologists meant that as well as others which were written with strength against there way And secondly you affirme it to bee argumentall and that therefore it behoved either all or some of them to have answered it I Answer They know best what they have to doe yet for my owne part I did conceive it ought to have beene answered and therefore I answered it my selfe and that for these reasons First because you should not be wise in your owne conceit Secondly because I read that our Saviour Christ answered Sathan when Sathan brought false arguments against him and it is also written that we should be ready to give a reason of our hope to every one that shall aske us and I considering the many questions that you asked and the weakenesse of your reasons and arguments and the untruths of some of them and how contradictory they were to one another thought it very easie to undermine and overthrow them therefore I answered them holding it meet for those who were more able not to trouble themselves therewith but to be employed in matters of farre greater and higher concernement But seeing you are yet so bold as to stand in it to affirme that your booke was argumentall and ought to have beene answered by them all or some of them I desire againe to repeat the heads of some of the Cheifest of your arguments that so rationall men may consider whether they be truely Logicall The substance of your first Argument is this It s evident that the Church of God could not stand without some other helpe then Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors Teachers and all other Officers But you have not declared any evidence neither Scripture nor true reason what must wee then beleeve you upon your bare word I will not for that were to make you a God or at least one infalliably inspired Your second argument is that the Government of Independent or seperated Churches is not of divine institution because it forceth them to have Ministers without Ordination which thing is an untruth like your former as hath been proved at large in the Answer thereunto and there are divers untruths in this reason or section which have been answered as will plainely appeare to those that will take the paines to reade your booke and mine Your third is that it is not to be thought that Christ would leave such a Governement that affords no way of appeale c. This is answered at large that the Churches of the Separatâ—â—â—â— have true waies of appeale But the Church of England hath not These be your mighty Arguments of strength which deserved an answer though you proved none of them If the answer which I sent you already have not sufficiently proved your arguments to be groundlesse declare I pray you what substantiall point is not answered if there be any substantialls in them and it shall be answered by Scripture and
good reason or else you shall have the conquest But you have in this your Antipologia named some learned Authors who have written against Separation amongst which Mr. Rutherford is one And I have seen Mr. Rutherfords booke and also weighed it But I could not discerne that he hath set down any thing against Separation that hath any force neither hath hee proved any thing sufficiently but hath propounded many queeries which have been both framed and answered long agoe and he hath in his discourse expressed and repeated many answers which have been made to those queeires by the Separation and running them over he telleth us what this man saith and what that man saith and what another man saith but he in declaring his owne conceptions following his blind zeale and popish Authors runneth himselfe headlong to justifie the Church and Ministry of Rome against the Separates arguments there specified bringing no sufficient proofe either of his owne or other mens against them Therefore I would have understanding men to consider whether this of his be learned or pious writing yea or no The generall scope of his booke tendeth to prove that the power of the Church resteth in the hands of her Officers But he should consider that Christ hath given the power to his Church which is his body and spouse of which and of whom he himselfe is the head and Husband neither can any Officer in the Church move Ecclesiastically without the power of the Church no more then a mans Arme or Leg or prime member can move except it derive power from the body of which it is a naturall member Yea the power of the Keyes is as absolutely the Churches which is Christs wife as the power of the Keyes of the Family are the Mistrises to whom the Husband giveth full power and I thinke no reasonâ—â—le man will affirme if her Husband give her sole power in his absence that she is subordinate to any of her servants Now the Scripture is cleere that Christ who is ascended up on high hath delivered the power to his Church therefore it is against the light and law of nature to conceive the Church to be thus subordinate to the servants but rather we may speake with reverence to Christ that her servants are subordinate unto her and it is a dishonour unto Christ for them to usurp ecclesiasticall authority over her But in case they should so doe she hath received commission from Christ her Husband to deale with them according to the offence committed by them and if need require to cast them out and then not to suffer them to enter in againe but by the dore of Repentance But as Mr. Rutherford by pleading for the Ecclesiasticall power to be in the Officers hath given great advantage to the Pope so hath he to the Anabaptists by pleading the universallity of his Church bringing in the seed of wicked men to be baptized because their fore father was a beleeving Parent but upon this ground all the Infants in the world are baptizable because a beleever was the father of them all But the Scripture teacheth us otherwise for the House of Jacob was forsaken by the Lord because they enlarged themselves from the East and were Southsayers like the Philistime and pleased themselves with the children of strangers YOu have joyned to your Antipologia certaine reasons against Tolleration which are the same in substance with those which you brought in your former And seeing they have beene largely answered there in the answer to your ten reasons and in my reply to your answer to their six reasons It is folly for you to study to relieve those reasons to serve your turne For untill you are able to stand out and prove by the word of God that the Church of England which you call your Church is the Church of Jesus Christ as it now stands in confusion And the ministry thereof either in the Synod or out of the Synod is the ministry which Christ gave to his Church when he ascended up on high Till this is proved which can never be all the arguments which you have brought or can bring against the Separates under the names of Sectaries are still against your selfe For whether there be Sectaries or Scismaticks whether Athists or Papists whether wanton witted Christians as you tearme them disobedient to Magistrates unfaithfull to King and State Obstinate Rebels nay what ever wickednesse can be named the persons practising the same are found to be Members of the Church of England Therefore I would advise you hereafter to let Baal plead for himselfe And goe not about to make the Magistrates beleive that it is their duty to suppresse the Church of Christ to heale the Rents of your confused Church state for though all the Prophets in the land would heale Babel yet she shall never be healed for in a generall Apostasie there can be no true Reformation but by a totall visible Separation of the pretious from the vile And therefore you come short when you would intimate there is nothing between you and us in point of the ministery but that our Ministers must sease from their outward temporall labours imployments or trades for our Ministers have no false calling upon them as yours have which is a great gulfe betwixt your Ministers and ours and betwixt you and us And concerning our Churches you say the controversie were at an end if our ministers would grant to our Churches that Assemblies and Synods might judge and passe sentence upon our members as often as they see just ground But truely Mr. Edwards this were to adulterate from the true patterne left unto us and as this argueth in you great slothfullnesse and pride so if your councell were followed it would make others like you but as our Ministers doe not desire to live Idly as you would have them doe neither doe our Churches desire the thing which you would have our Ministers grant them you may know that you doe not goe according to the rules of Scripture when you perswade the Ministers of the Gospel to sease labouring with their hands For when Paul called the Elders of Ephesus to give them their charge He set before them his owne example I pray you read the 20. Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles And see whether Paul required any to leave working with their hands no sure he commanded the direct contrary where he expressed that he Coveted no mans Silver or Gold or Apparrell But saith that they knew that his owne hands ministered to his necessities and them that were with him And further saith he hath shewed them in all things how that so labouring they ought to support the weake Remembring the words of our Lord Jesus how he said It is a more blessed thing to give then to receive And concerning our Churches submitting to Synods to judge their cases That were to make themselves foole * For if ther be a wise man amongst
us we ought not to goe to law with one another before those that are without for temporall things much lesse about spirituall things For the Apostle hath declared that the Saints shall judge the world yea the Angels If this be true as no understanding man can deny then it would be a more greivious sinne and woefull adultery for the Spouse of Jesus Christ to seeke or sue to a power that is neither Jure Divino nor Jure Humano And now I will speake something to these your 8. reasons against tolleration though they are of the same nature with the other in the first book and so have been answered already yet to satisfie the Reader more fully I will here give answer unto them particularly But I would have you all men know that I doe not neither doe any that are truly religious plead for such a Toleration as you would father upon us even a Toleration to sinne We plead not for a Toleration of all sorts of persons who are members of the Church of England for that were to plead for a Toleration for Theeves and Murderers and Adulterers and Sabbath-breakers and all sorts of wicked livers that all men might doe as they list But the thing wee plead for is a peaceable enjoyment of our liberty to worship God publikely according to his revealed word most especially upon that time instituted for his publike worship even the first day of the weeke being the Lords day And that all the 6. dayes we may follow our callings without feare of the execution of such unjust Lawes which former Parliaments have made against such who would not come to their Common Prayer book or submit to all the orders of the Parishes of England for such a Toleration as this we plead IN your first reason you affirme that a Toleration of Independent Churches and governement with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid down in the Scripture But I have proved it to be the Magistrates duty to Tolerate the true worship of God and those practises which are according to the word But you would insinuate still your old slander that we plead for a toleration of herisie and Scisme which we know is against the Magistrates duty and this maketh against your evill way For if a Parliament may not as you say displease God to please men nor winke at evill to content some persons And if Parliaments in making lawes for religion must depend on the will of God revealed in his word and not upon the consciences of some People Then it is dangerous for a Parliament to constraine men to submit to the decrees of a Synod or Presbytery when neither the Presbytery nor their decrees have ground in the word of God YOur second reason is that The Toleration desired is against the Solemne League and Covenant taken by the Parliament and Kingdomes and therefore the Toleration desired comes to late the doores being shut Ans. Here you lay a fearfull aspertion upon the Parliament for requiring such an Oath and Covenant as if they intended to shut the Kingdome of Christ and his true worship out of the three Kingdomes for you say further If the toleration were lawfull in it selfe yet because of the Oath and Covenant it is unlawfull though it might have beene granted before it cannot be granted now least the Kingdome should be guilty before God of Covenant breaking Ans. Surely you will make the Parliament all like Herod they must take poore John Baptists head off because of their oath But is this oath so foule as you would make it and yet is it like the Decree of the Medes and Persians that it may not be altered WellsGod can deliver * poore Daniell in the Lyons denne and it may be you shall come in our stead when once the Parliament discerneth your wicked intentions But Mr. Edwards bethinke your selfe will not you blush and be ashamed to give in the oath in these termes as you have ever exprest it in this your second Reason pag. 283. that we are to endeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland in Doctrine Worship Governement and Discipline according to the example of the best reformed Churches forgetting the word of God which ought to have beene set before you as it was indeede by the Parliament But you deale by the Covenant as you deale by the Scriptures hack them and mangle and labour to make them fit for your owne turne and yet you jeered the Apologists when they spake of the way and practise of their Churches because they did not name the Law or Oâ—d Testament in expres words though they in the same place testifie that they reverence and adore the fulnesse of Scriptures and their sufficiency to make us perfect c. but here you have shamefully forgotten your selfe and overslipt both Law Gospel And so tye your selves to mens patterns without the word of God And surely I cannot beleeve that the Parliament hath Covenanted so as you inferre in the same page of your booke How say you can they grant a tolleration so different as their way is that will not depend upon a Synod And in the next page of the same Reason you say that there is in the Covenant a clause in the second branch that wee shall without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of Scisme and whatsoever shall bee found contrary to sound Doctrine and the power of godlinesse least we pertake in other mens sinnes Now surely Mr. Edwards I wonder that wise men can smile upon you except it be in consideration of your folly for you are made all of contradictions unlesse you would have us take it for granted that it is according to sound doctrine and the power of godlinesse that a number of Priests should bee called together of contrary religions some for the Bishops and some for the Presbyterie and some for Christ and that the two first casting aside the last should agree to make decrees a Parliament should bee bound to establish them Would this bee now to extripate scisme nay it would be to establish a grand scisme For godlinesse is cast out by the two first and the Parliament must establish what ever shall be thought of those two first to be sound whether it be for the Bishops the antient fathers or for the Presbyters their younger sonnes and so you would have the Parliament to bee indeede guilty of their sinnes YOur third Rreason is that A Tolleration is against the nature of a Reformation and here you discover your selfe in this Reason that the Reformation you intend to make is to force all men in the Kingdom to submit to some perticular forme for you say you cannot make a reformation but it must offend many consciences But if it be so it will be the consciences of them that have knowledge in the word of God For the ignorant multitude will bee offended at
nothing but of what ever Religion their King will be of they will be of the same therefore you are a contentious man indeede that will offend the consciences of the godly to make your Church great that so your revenewes may be large YOur fourth Reason is A tolleration of men in their errors is against the judgements of the greatest lights Ans. It is granted Therefore you might have spared your labour in citing your antient fathers For in all that you doe herein I oppose you not YOur fifth Reason is that the Magistrates tollerating of errors and new opinions is a kinde of invitation to them c. Ans. This thing I grant And therefore the Magistrates ought not to tollerate errors or any opinion that is not grounded upon the word of God And therefore I conceive it to be the Magistrates duty to make tryall of the Synod whether their gathering together bee according to the word of God or according to the customes of this Kingdome And whether they bee not of the same nature with the Synod which used to sit in the Convocation house And whether any decree which they shall now pitch upon not having the Scripture for their warrant may be consented unto And though it have the Scripture for their warrant whether there bee ever the more weight in it for their decreeing of it and it greatly concerneth the Parliament to consider whether the Assembly have any thing to do with the things of God while they stand Priests by their OLD-POPISH-CALLING And that upon your ground namely that the Magistrates ought not to tollerate errors or new opinions And all waies and practises are new and strange which have not warrant in the word of God IN your sixt Reason you pleade against a tolleration of different formes of Church governement for feare of division among Ministers and families you say it will not stand with Christian policie but it will stand with Matchevillian Mr. Edwards If Christian policie might take place in the Kingdome of England and all your Matchivillian pollicie banished out there would be no striving then about different formes of Religion but Christs true Religion and Gospel would then have a free passage without interposing for the free tollerating of it will produce no mischiefes nor evills at all And it is not wee that pleade for different formes of Church governement but your owne party We pleade but for one intire governement established upon sound principles unalterable And not a government which may looke with severall faces in severall times upon severall occasions according to mens fancies And therefore it had beene better for you to have held your tongue then made so many repetitions of things which have beene sufficiently answered long agoe YOur seventh Reason is that Independency or the Church way as being a scisme in forsaking the Reformed Churches and constituting new the way of constituting Churches by the people the way of making their Ministers the refusing of beleevers and their children to the Sacraments unlesse they bee Church members with many more are all flat against the primative patterne c. In these words you have so jumbled things together as it were in a broken language If you meane that the way of Separation from your false Churches their way of making ministers constituting Churches is contrary to the primative patterne you speake untruly for they make the primative patterne their rule And then for their refusing of beleevers and their children from the Sacraments unlesse they be members of their Church in this you accuse them unjustly also for they doe admit beleevers and their Infants to the ordinance of Baptisme though they bee not members of a particular congregation for they are not capeable to be members before Baptisme in respect of order and to partake of the Supper till they be in particular Church fellowship And this I will engage my selfe to maintaine against you if it please you to dispute the case And therefore you had no neede to have branded this practise with such a blacke badge to call it the fountaine of evill and root of bitternesse and manifold errors and other mischiefes For this is but your bitter language against the truth And if you intend to make your rejoynders and large tractates which you brag of of such stuffe as you have made this Antipologia It were better for you to put on a buffe coate to go fight in the Army against your enemies then to sit at home to slander and accuse your friends even those who neâ—er did nor thought harme to you or any other YOur eighth Reason is a commendation of the Presbyteriall way and that by the testimony of many fathers and the testimony of the Scottish Commishioners But you say there will be objected a passage against it in a booke lately printed of M. Simpsons Answ. I leave Mr. Simpson and you to try it ouâ— But if you had so defined your Presbyterian governement and set downe your bounds and limitts what and what not according as you call upon the Apologists to define their Church way then you should have had my judgement of it here to the full But to judge and determin so of a thing which is not yet begotten or brought forth in this Kingdome is not so easie a matter neither do we know what forme or shape it will have when it is brought forth It may for ought I know be a MONSTER like the Image of the seven beaded beast and if it bee found defective then all who have taken the Nationall Covenant are by your own confession to endeavour the exterpation of it Yea And further you say as the Parliament will not be respecters of persons or partiall they must grant no tolleration but what is agreeable to sound doctrine In this you speake very true although indeed you crosse many of your former speeches And therefore the way to deside the controversie is to sease writing of such large tractates wherein you doe but as it were picke strawes and make abundance of repititions to tryfle away the time In my judgement I say It were better for your selfe and Mr. Samuel Rutherford and Mr. A.S. or any of you or whomsoever the Parliament shall apoint to produce Scripture and good reason for your way if you can and let as many of the Ministers of the Congregations of the Separation have freedome to produce Scripture and sound reason for their way in a free conference And let the houses of Parliament who are able to judge of the great and weighty businesses of the Kingdome let them I say have the hearing and tryall of the conference and as things are cleared so let them allow or disallow And this is according to your counsell in pag. 304. of your Antipologia where you say To conclude If the way of Independencie be of God and the Apollogists can make that good let it be established by Parliament and let all