the Church of Christ. And this is said to have amounted into a formall Separation from the Church of Rome and to have continued for the space of somewhat more then one hundred yeares Now that such a Separation there was of the African Church from Rome and a Reconciliation after stands upon the Credit and Authority of two publike Instruments extant both among the Ancient Councels The one is an a Epist. Bonifacii 2. apud Nicol. To. 2. Concil p. 544. Epistle from Boniface the second in whose time the Reconciliation to Rome is said to be made by Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage but the Separation Instigante Diabolo by the Temptation of the Divil The other is an b Exemp PrecuÌ„ apud Nicolin Ibid. p. 525. Exemplar PrecuÌ„ or Copie of the Petition of the same Eulalius in which he damnes and curses all those his Predecessors which went against the Church of Rome Amongst which Eulalius must needes Curse S. Augustine And Pope Boniface accepting this Submmission must acknowledge that S. Augustine and the rest of that Councell deserved this Curse and dyed under it as violating Rectae Fidei Regulam the Rule of the Right Faith so the Exemplar Precum beginnes by refusing the Popes Authority I will not deny but that there are divers Reasons given by the Learned Romanists and Reformed Writers for and against the Truth and Authority of both these Instruments But because this is too long to be examin'd here I wil say but this and then make my use of it to my present purpose giving the Church of Rome free leave to acknowledge these Instruments to be true or false as they please That which I shall say is this These Instruments are let stand in all Editions of the Councels and Epistles Decretall As for Example in the Old Edition by Isidor Anno. 1524. And in another Old Edition of them Printed Anno. 1530. And in that which was published by P Crabbe Anno. 1538. And in the Edition of Valentinus Ioverius Anno. 1555. And in that by Surius Anno. 1567. And in the Edition at Venice by Nicolinus Anno. 1585. And in all of these without any Note or Censure upon them And they are in the Edition of Binius too Anno. 1618. but there 's a Censure upon them to keepe a quarter it may be with * Baron Annal. An. ad 4 9. Nu. 93. 94. Baronius who was the first I think that ever quarrelled them and he doth it tartly And since †Ualde mihi illa Epistola suspecta sunt Bellar. L. 2. de Ro. Pont. c. 25. § Respondeo primum Sed si fortè illa Epistola verae sunt nihil enim affirmâ—… c. Ibid. § ult Bellarmine followes the same way but more doubtfully This is that which I had to say And the Vse which I shall make of these Instruments whether they be true or false is this They are either true or false that is of necessity If they be false then Boniface the Second and his Accomplices at Rome or some for them are notorious Forgers and that of Records of great Consequence concerning the Government and Peace of the whole Church of Christ and to the perpetual Infamie of that Sea and all this foolishly and to no purpose For if there were no such Separation as these Records mention of the Africane Churches from the Romane to what end should Boniface or any other counterfeit an Epistle of his owne and a Submission of Eulalius On the other side if these Instruments be true as the sixth Councell of Carthage against all other Arguments makes me incline to believe they are in Substance at least though perhaps not in all Circumstances then 't is manifest that the Church of Africk separated from the Church of Rome That this Separation continued above one hundred yeares That the Church of Africke made this Separation in a Nationall Councell of their owne which had in it two hundred and seventeene Bishops That this Separation was made for ought appeares only because they at Rome were too ready to entertaine Appeales from the Church of Africke as appeares in the Case of * And so the Councell of Carthage sent word to Pope Calestine plainly that in admitting such Appeales he brake the Decrees of the Councell of Nice Epist. Concil Africa ad Calestinum c. 105. Apud Nicolin Tom. 1. Concil p. 844. Apiarius who then appealed thither That S. Augustine Eugenius Fulgentius and all those Bishops and other Martyrs which suffered in the Uandalike Persecution dyed in the time of this Separation That if this Separation were not just but a Schisme then these Famous Fathers of the Church dyed for ought appeares in Actuall and unrepented Schisme †Planè ex Ecclesiae Catholicae albo Expâ—…ngenda fâ—…issent Sâ—…nctorum Africanorum Martyrum Agâ—…ina qui in persecutione Vandalica pro Fide Catholica c. Baron Ann. 419. Num. 93. Et Binius In Notis ad Epist. Bomfacii 2. ad Eulalium and out of the Church And if so then how comes S. Augustine to be and be accounted a Saint all over the Christian world and at Rome it selfe But if the Separation were just then is it farre more lawfull for the Church of England by a Nationall Councell to cast off the Popes Vsurpation as * §. 24. Nu. 5. She did then it was for the African Church to separate Because then the African Church excepted only against the Pride of Rome †Belâ—… 2. de Ro. Pont. c. 25. §. 2. in Case of Appeales and two other Canons lesse materiall But the Church of England excepts besides this Grievance against many Corruptions in Doctrine belonging to the Faith with which Rome at that time of the African Separation was not tainted And I am out of all doubt that S. August and those other Famous men in their generations durst not thus have separated from Rome had the Pope had that powerfull Principality over the whole Church of Christ And that by Christs owne Ordinance and Institution as A. C. pretends he had A. C. p. 58. I told you a little * §. 25. Nu. 10. before that the Popes grew under the Emperors till they had over-grown them And now lest A. C. should say I speake it without proofe I will give you a briefe touch of the Church-story in that behalfe And that from the beginning of the Emperors becomming Christians to the time of Charles the Great which containes about five hundred yeares For so soone as the Emperors became Christian the Church which before was kept under by persecutions began to be put in better order For the calling and Authority of Bishops over the Inferiour Clergie that was a thing of kâ—…owne use and benefit for Preservation of Unity and Peace in the Church And so much †Quòd autem postea Vxus electus est qui cateris praporerâ—…ur in Schismatis remedium fallum est ne unusquisque ad se trahens Christi
of the Romane Church then non sumpsit exordium no Heresie tooke its beginning there but that denyes not but that some Haereticall taint might get in there And 't is more then manifest that the most famous Haeresies in their severall Times made their aboade even at Rome And 't is observable too that Bellarmine cites nomore of Ruffinus his words then these In Ecclesiâ urbis Romae neque Haeresis ulla sumpsit exordium mos ibi servatur antiquus as if this were an entire speech whereas it comes in but as a Reason given of the speech precedent and as if Ruffinus made the Church of Rome the great observer of the Customes of the Church whereas he speaks but of one Particular Custome of Reciting the Creed before Baptisme But after all this I pray did no Heresie ever begin at Rome where did Novatianisme begin At Rome sure For a Baron To. 2. An. 254. Num. 62. Baronius b Pamel in Cyprian Epist. 41. 73. Pamelius and c Petavius in Epiphan Haeres 59. Petavius doe all dispute the Point whether that sect was denominated from Novatianus the Romane Priest or Novatus the African Bishop And they Conclude for Novatian He then that gave that Name is in all right the Founder and Rome the nest of that Heresie And there it Continued with a succession d Onuph in Notis ad Plat. in vita Cornelii of Bishops from Cornelius to Caelestine which is neare upon two hundred yeares Nay could Ruffinus himselfe be ignorant that some Haeresie began at Rome No sure For in this I must challenge him either for his weake memory or his wilfull error For Ruffinus had not only read Eusebius his History but had beene at the paines to translate him Now * Haeretici alii in morem venenatorum serpentum in Asiam Phrygiam irrepserunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quorum Dux Florinus Euseb. L. 5. cap. 14. And in Ruffinus his Translation c. 15. And then afterwards c. 19. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Now this Blastus taught that God was the Author of sin Eusebius sayes plainely that some Hereticks spread their venome in Asia some in Phrygia and others grew at Rome and Florinus was the Ring-leader of them And more clearely after Irenaeus saith he directed diverse Epistles against this Florinus and his fellow Blastus and condemnes them of such Heresies as threw them and their Followers into great Impiety c. Those at Rome corrupting the sound Doctrine of the Church Therefore most manifest it is that some Heresie had its rise and beginning at Rome But to leave this slip of Ruffinus most evident it is that Ruffinus neither did nor could account the Particular Church of Rome infallible For if he had esteemed so of it he would not have dissented from it in so maine a Point as is the Canon of the Scripture as he plainely doth a Ruff. in Exposit Symb. p. 188. In which reckoning heplainly agrees with the Church of England Art 6. For reckoning up the Canonicall Bookes he most manifestly dissents from the Romane Church Therefore either Ruffinus did not think the Church of Rome was infallible or els the Church of Rome at this day reckons up more Bookes within the Canon than heretofore she did If she do then she is changed in a maine Point of Faith the Canon of Scripture and is absolutely convinced not to be infallible For if she were right in her reckoning then she is wrong now And if she be right now she was wrong then And if she do not reckon more now than she did when Ruffinus lived then he reckons fewer than she and so dissents from her which doubtlesse he durst not have done had he thought her judgement infallible Yea and he sets this marke upon his Dissent besides b Novi Veteris Testamenti Volumina c. sicut ex Patrum Monumentis accepimus Ruff. in Symb. p. 188. Et haec sunt quae Patres intra canonem concluserunt Et ex quibus Fidei nostrae Assertiones constare voluerunt Ib. p. 189. That he reckons up the Bookes of the Canon just so and no otherwise than as he received them out of the Monuments of the Forefathers And out of which the Assertions of our Faith are to be taken Last of all had this place of Ruffinus any strength for the Infallibility of the Church of Rome yet there is very little reason that the Pope and his Clergie should take any Benefit by it For S. c Si Episcopi Romani est stultè facis ab eo Exemplar Epistolae petere cui missa non est c. Vade potiùs Romane praesens apâ—… eum expostula cur tibi absenti innocenti fecerit injuriaÌ„ Primum ut non reciperâ—…t Expositionem Fidei tuae quam omnis ut scribis Italia comprobavâ—… c. Deinde ut Cauterium tibi Haerescôs dum nescis inureret S. Hicron Apol. 3. advers Ruffin fol. 85. K. Ierome tels us That when Ruffinus was angry with him for an Epistle which he writ not he plainly sent him to the Bishop of Rome and bid him expostulate with him for the Contumely put upon him in that he received not his exposition of the Faith which said He all Italy approved and in that he branded him also dùm nesciret behind his back with Heresie Now if the Pope which then was rejected this Exposition of the Creed made by Ruffinus and branded him besides with Haeresie his sentence against Ruffinus was Iust or Vnjust If Vnjust then the Pope erred about a matter of Faith and so neither He nor the Church of Rome infallible If Iust then the Church of Rome labours to defend herself by his pen which is judged Haereticall by her self So whether it were Iust or Vnjust the Church of Rome is driven to a hard strait when she must beg help of him whom she branded with Haeresie and out of that Tract which she her self rejected And so uphold her Infallibility by the Iudgement of a man who in her Iudgement had erred so foully Nor may she by any †Quum quis se vellâ—… personaâ—… tâ—…stium post publicationem repellere fuerit protestatus Si quid pro ipso dixerint iis non creditur Extra Tex ibi Gloss. c. Praesentium 31. de Testibus Law take benefit of a Testimony which her self hath defamed and protested against With these Bellarmine is pleased to name Sixe Popes which he saith are all of this Opinion But he a Bellar. L. 4. de RoÌ„ Pont. c. 4. §. Addo etiam Quae eâ—…si ab Haereticis contemnentur c. adds That these Testimonies will be contemned by the Haereticks Good words I pray I know whom the Cardinall meanes by Hereticks very well But the best is His Call cannot make them so Nor shall I easily contemne Sixe ancient Bishops of Rome concurring in Opinion if apparent verity in the thing it selfe do not
that Proposition in terminis So here the very Foundation of A. C ' s. Dilemma fals off For I say not That onely the Points of the Creed are Fundamentall whether expressed or not expressed That all of them are that I say And yet though the Foundation of his Dilemma be fallen away I will take the boldnesse to tell A. C. That if I had said That those Articles onely which are expressed in the Creed are Fundamentall it would have beene hard to have excluded the Scripture upon which the Creed it selfe in every Point is grounded For nothing is supposed to shut out its owne Foundation And if I should now say that some Articles are Fundamentall which are infolded in the Creed it would not follow that therefore some unwritten Traditions were Fundamentall Some Traditions I deny not true and firme and of great both Authority and Vse in the Church as being Apostolicall but yet not Fundamentall in the Faith And it would be a mighty large fold which should lap up Traditions within the Creed As for that Tradition That the Bookes of holy Scriptures are Divine and Infallible in every part I will handle that when I come to the proper place * §. 16. N. 1. for it F. I asked how then it happened as M. Rogers saith that the English Church is not yet resolved what is the right sense of the Article of Christs Descending into Hell B. The English Church never made doubt that § 12 I know what was the sense of that Article The words are so plaine they beare their meaning before them Shee was content to put that a Art 3. Article among those to which she requires Subscription not as doubting of the sense but to prevent the Cavils of some who had beene too busie in Crucifying that Article and in making it all one with the Article of the Crosse or but an Exposition of it And surely for my part I thinke the Church of England is better resolved of the right sense of this Article then the Church of Rome especially if shee must be tryed by her Writers as you try the Church of England by M. Rogers For you cannot agree whether this Article be a meere Tradition or whether it hath any Place of Scripture to vvarrant it a Scotus in 1. D. 11. q. 1. Scotus and b Stapleton Relect. Con. 5. q. 5. Art 1. Stapleton allow it no footing in Scripture but c Bellarm 4. de Christo. c. 6. 12. Scripturae passim hoc docent Bellarmine is resolute that this Article is every where in Scripture and d Thom. 2 â—…ae q. 1. A 9 ad 1. Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed The Church of England never doubted it and S. e S. Aug. Ep. 99. Augustine prooves it And yet againe you are different for the sense For you agree not Whether the Soule of Christ in triduo mortis in the time of his Death did go downe into Hell really and was present there or vertually and by effects only For g Tho. p. 3. q. 52. A. 2. c. per suam essentiam Thomas holds the first and h Dur in 3. d. 22. q. 3. Durand the later Then you agree not Whether the Soule of Christ did descend really and in essence into the lowest pit of Hell and Place of the Damned as i Bellar. L. 4. do Christo. c. 16. Bellarmine once held probable and prooved it or really only into that place or Region of Hell which you call Limbum Patrum and then but vertually from thence into the Lower Hell to which k Bellar. Recog p. 11. Bellarmine reduces himselfe and gives his reason because it is the l Sequuntur enim Tho. p. 3. Q. 52. A. 2. common Opinion of the Schoole Now the Church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed and believes them without farther Dispute and in that sense which the ancient Primitive Fathers of the Church agreed in And yet if any in the Church of England should not be throughly resolved in the sense of this Article Is it not as lawfull for them to say I conceive thus or thus of it yet if any other way of his Descent be found truer then this I deny it not but as yet I know no other as it was for m Non est pertinaciter asserendum quin Anima Christi per alium modum nobis ignotum potuerit descendere ad Infernum Nec nos negamus alium modum esse for sit an veriorem sed fatemur nos illum ignor arc Durand in 3. sent Dist. 22. q. 3. Nu. 9. Durand to say it and yet not impeach the Foundation of the Faith F. The Bishop said That M. Rogers was but a private man But said I if M. Rogers writing as he did by publike Authority be accounted only a private man c. B. I said truth when I said M. Rogers was a private § 13 man And I take it you will not allow every speech of every man though allowed by Authority to have his Bookes Printed to be the Doctrine of the Church of Rome * And this was an Ancient fault too for S. Augustine checks at it in his time Noli colligere calumnias ex Episcoporum scriptis sive Hillarii sive Cypriani Agrippini Primò quia hoc genus literarum ab Authoritate Canonis distinguendum est Non enim sic leguntur tanquam it a ex iis testimonium proferatur ut contrà sentire non liceat sicubi fortè aliter sentirent quà m veritas postulat S. Aug. Ep. 48. c. And yet these were farre greater men in their generations then M. Rogers was This hath beene oft complained of on both sides The imposing particular mens assertions upon the Church yet I see you meane not to leave it And surely as Controversies are now handled by some of your party at this day I may not say it is the sense of the Article in hand but I have long thought it a kinde os descent into Hell to be conversant in them I would the Authors would take heed in time and not seeke to blinde the People or cast a mist before evident Truth least it cause a finall descent to that place of Torment But since you will hold this course Stapleton was of greater note with you then M. Rogers his exposition of Notes upon the Articles of the Church of England is with us And as he so his Relection And is it the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which Stapleton affirmes †Stapl. Cont. 5. q. 5. A. 1. The Scripture is silent that Christ descended into Hell and that there is a Catholike and an Apostolike Church If it be then what will become of the Popes Supremacie over the whole Church Shall he have his Power over the Catholike Church given him expresly in Scripture in the a S. Mat. 16. 19. Keyes to enter and in b S. Ioh. 21. 15. Pasce
to feede when he is in and when he had fed to c S. Luk. 22. 35. Confirme and in all these not to erre and faile in his Ministration And is the Catholike Church in and over which he is to do all these great things quite left out of the Scripture Belike the Holy Ghost was carefull to give him his power Yes in any case but left the assigning of his great Cure the Catholike Church to Tradition And it were well for him if he could so prescribe for what he now Claymes But what if after all this M. Rogers there sayes no such thing As in truth he doth not His words are d Rogers in Art Eccle. Angl. Art 3. All Christians acknowledge He descended but in the interpretation of the Article there is not that consent that were to be wished What is this to the Church of England more then others And againe e Ibid. Till we know the native and undoubted sense of this Article is M. Rogers We the Church of England or rather his and some others Iudgement in the Church of England Now here A. C. will have somewhat againe to say though God knowes 't is to little purpose 'T is A. C. p. 47. that the Iesuite urged M. Roger's Booke because it was set out by Publike Authority And because the Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England A. C. may undoubtedly urge M. Rogers if he please But he ought not to say that his Opinion is the Doctrine of the Church of England for neither of the Reasons by him expressed First not because his Booke was publikely allowed For many Bookes among them as well as among us have beene Printed by publike Authority as containing nothing in them contrary to Faith and good manners and yet containing many things in them of Opinion only or private Iudgement which yet is farre from the avowed Positive Doctrine of the Church the Church having as yet determined neither way by open Declaration upon the words or things controverted And this is more frequent among their Schoolemen then among any of our Controversers as is well knowne Nor secondly because his Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England For suppose the worst and say M. Rogers thought a little too well of his owne paines and gave his Booke too high a Title is his private Iudgement therefore to be accounted the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England Surely no No more then I should say every thing said by * Angelici D. S. Tho. Summa Thomas or †Celebratissimi Patris Dom. Bonaventurae Doctoris Seraphici in 3. L. Sent. Disputata Bonaventure is Angelicall or Seraphicall Doctrine because one of these is stiled in the Church of Rome Seraphicall and the other Angelicall Doctor And yet their workes are Printed by Publike Authority and that Title given them Yea but our private Authors saith A. C. are not allowed for ought I know in such a like sorte to expresse A. C. p. 47. our Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to Question Here are two Limitations which will goe farre to bring A. C. off whatsoever I shall say against him For first let me instance in any private man that takes as much upon him as M. Rogers doth he will say he knew it not his Assertion here being no other then for ought he knowes Secondly If he be unwilling to acknowledge so much yet he will answer 't is not just in such a like sort as M. Rogers doth it that is perhaps it is not the very Title of his Booke But well then Is there never a Private man allowed in the Church of Rome to expresse your Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to question What not in any matter Were not Vega and Soto two private men Is it not a mâ—…tter subject to Question to great Question in these Dayes Whether a man may be certaine of his Salvation câ—…rtitudine fidei by the certainty of Faith Doth nâ—…t * Bellar. Lib. 3. de Justificat c. 1. 14. Bellarmine make it a Controversie And is it not a part of your Catholike Faith if it be determined in the †Huic Concilio Catholici omnes ingenia sua judicia sponte subjiciunt Bellar. 3. de Justif. c. 3. §. Sed Concilii Tridâ—…i Councell of Trent And yet these two great Friers of their time Dominicus Soto and Andreas Vega a Hist. Concil Trident. Lib. 2. p. 245. Edit Lat. Leidae 1622. were of contrary Opinions and both of them challenged the Decree of the Councell and so consequently your Catholike Faith to be as each of them concluded and both of them wrote Bookes to maintaine their Opinions and both of their Bookes were published by Authority And therefore I think 't is allowed in the Church of Rome to private men to expresse your Catholike Doctrine and in a matter subject to Question And therefore also if another man in the Church of England should be of a contrary Opinion to M. Rogers and declare it under the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England this were no more then Soto and Vega did in the Church of Rome And I for my part cannot but wonder A. C. should not know it A. C. p. 47. For he sayes that for ought he knowes Private men are not allowed so to expresse their Catholike Doctrine And in the same Question both Catharinus and Bellarmine b Bellar. L. 3. de Iustif. c. 3. take on them to expresse your Catholike Faith the one differing from the other almost as much as Soto and Vega and perhaps in some respect more F. But if M. Rogers be only a private man in what Book may we finde the Protestants publike Doctrine The Bishop answered That to the Booke of Articles they were all sworne B. What Was I so ignorant to say The Articles § 14 of the Church of England were the Publike Doctrine of all the Protestants Or that all Protestants were sworne to the Articles of England as this speech seems to imply Sure I was not Was not the immediate speech before of the Church of England And how comes the Subject of the Speech to be varied in the next lines Nor yet speake I this as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines and in the maine Exceptions which they joyntly take against the Romane Church as appeares by their severall Confessions But if A. C. will say as he doth that because there was speech before of the Church of A. C. p. 47. England the Iesuite understood mee in a limited sense and meant only the Protestants of the English Church Bee it so ther 's no great harme done †And therfore A. C. needs not make such a Noise about it as he doth p. 48 but this that the Iesuite offers to enclose me too much For I did not
say that the Booke of Articles only was the Continent of the Church of Englands publike Doctrine She is not so narrow nor hath she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges hers nor doth she wittingly permit any Crossing of her publike Declarations yet she is not such a shrew to her Children as to deny her Blessing or Denounce an Anathema against them if some peaceably dissent in some Particulars remoter from the Foundation as your owne Schoole men differ And if the Church of Rome since she grew to her greatnesse had not beene so fierce in this Course and too particular in Determining too many things and making them matters of Necessary Beliefe which had gone for many hundreds of years before only for things of Pious Opinion Christendome I perswade my selfe had beene in happier peace at this Day then I doubt we shall ever live to see it Well but A. C. will proove the Church of England a Shrew and such a Shrew For in her Booke * Can. 5. of Canons A. C. p. 48. She Excommunicates every man who shall hold any thing contrary to any part of the said Articles So A. C. But surely these are not the very words of the Canon nor perhaps the sense Not the Words for they are Whosoever shall affirme that the Articles are in any part superstitious or erroneous c. And perhaps not the sense For it is one thing for a man to hold an Opinion privately within himselfe and another thing boldly and publikely to affirme it And againe 't is one thing to hold contrary to some part of an Article which perhaps may bee but in the manner of Expression and another thing positively to affirme that the Articles in any part of them are superstitious and erroneous But this is not the Maine of the Businesse For though the Church of England Denounce Excommunication as is a Can. 5. before expressed Yet She comes farre short of the Church of Rome's severity whose Anathema's are not only for 39. Articles but for very many more * Concil Trident. above one hundred in matter of Doctrine and that in many Poynts as farre remote from the Foundation though to the farre greater Rack of mens Consciences they must be all made Fundamentall if that Church have once Determined them whereas the Church A. C. p. 45. of England never declared That every one of her Articles are Fundamentall in the Faith For 't is one thing to say No one of them is superstitious or erroneous And quite another to say Every one of them is fundamental and that in every part of it to all mens Beliefe Besides the Church of England prescribes only to her owne Children and by those Articles provides but for her owne peaceable Consent in those Doctrines of Truth But the Church of Rome severely imposes her Doctrine upon the whole World under paine of Damnation F. And that the Scriptures only not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of their Faith B. The Church of England grounded her Positive § 15 Articles upon Scripture and her Negative doe refute there where the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed by Scripture nor directly to be concluded out of it And here not the Church of England only but all Protestants agree most truly and most strongly in this That the Scripture is sufficient to salvation and containes in it all things necessary to it The Fathers a S. Basil. de verâ piâ fide Manifesta defectio Fidei est importare quicquam eorum quae scripta non sunt S. Hilar. L. 2. ad Const. Aug. Fidem tantùm secundum ca quae scripta sunt desider autem hoc qui repudiat Antichristus est qui simulat Anathema est S. Aug. L. 2. de Doctr. Christian. c. 9. In iis quae apertè in Scriptura posita sunt inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent sidem mâ—…resque vivendi And to this place Bellarm L. 4. de verbo Dei non scripto c. 11. saith that S. Augustine speakes de illis Dogmatibus quae necestaria sunt omnibus simpliciter of those Points of faith which are necessary simply for all men So farre then he grants the question And that you may know it fell not from him on the suddaine he had said as much before in the beginning of the same Chapter and here he confirmes it againe are plaine the b Sâ—…tus Proleg in sent q. 2. Scriptura sufficienter continet Doctrinam necessariam Uiatori Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. In Doctrina Christi Apostolorum veritas fidei est suffi ientèr explicata And he speakes there of the written Word Schoolemen not strangers in it And have not we reason then to account it as it is The Foundation of our Faith And c Scripturam Fundamentum esse columnam Fidei fatemur in suo genere i. can genere Testimoniorum in materia Credendorum Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. in fine Stapleton himselfe though an angry Opposite confesses That the Scripture is in some sort the Foundation of Faith that is in the nature of Testimony and in the matter or thing to be believed And if the Scripture be the Foundation to which we are to goe for witnesse if there be Doubt about the Faith and in which we are to find the thing that is to be believed as necessary in the Faith we never did nor never will refuse any Tradition that is Universall and Apostolike for the better Exposition of the Scripture nor any Definition of the Church in which she goes to the Scripture for what she teaches and thrusts nothing as Fundamentall in the Faith upon the world but what the Scripture fundamentally makes materiam Credendorum the substance of that which is so to be believed whether immediatly and expresly in words or more remotely till a cleare and full Deduction draw it out Against the beginning of this Paragraph A. C. excepts And first he sayes 'T is true that the Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture A. C. p. 48. That is 't is true if themselves may be competent Iudges in their owne Cause But this by the leave of A. C. is true without making our selves Iudges in our owne Cause For that all the Positive Articles of the present Church of England are grounded upon Scripture we are content to be judged by the joynt and constant Beliefe of the Fathers which lived within the first foure or five hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was at the best and by the Councels held within those times and to submit to them in all those Points of Doctrine Therefore we desire not to be Iudges in our owne Cause And if any whom A. C. cals a Novellist can truly say and maintaine this he will quickly proove himselfe no Novellist And for the Negative Articles they refute where the thing affirmed by you is either not affirmed in
erre if he keepe his chaire which yet he affirmes L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. Protestants so you will but understand it s not erring in Absolute Fundamentall Doctrines And therefore 't is true also that there can bee no just Cause to make a Schisme from the whole Church But here 's the Iesuite's Cunning. The whole Church with him is the Romane and those parts of Christendome which subject themselves to the Romane Bishop All other parts of Christendome are in Heresie and Schisme and what A. C. pleases Nay soft For another Church may separate from Rome if Rome will separate from Christ. And so farre as it separates from Him and the Faith so farre may another Church sever from it And thâ—…s is all that the Learned Protestants doe or can say And I am sure all that ever the Church of England hath either said or done And that the whole Church cannot erre in Doctrines absolutely Fundamentall and Necessary to all mens Saâ—…vation besides the Authority of these Protestants most of them being of prime ranke seemes to me to be cleare by the Promise of Christ S. Matth. 16 â—…hat the gates of Hell shall not prevaile S. Matth. 16. 18. against it Whereas most certaine it is that the Gates of Hell prevaile very farre against it if the Whole Militant Church universally taken can Erre from or in the Foundation But then this Power of not Erring is not to be conceived as if it were in the Church primò per se Originally or by any power it hath of it selfe For the Church is constituted of Men and Humanum est errare all men can erre But this Power is in it partly by the vertue of this Promise of Christ and partly by the Matter which it teacheth which is the unerring Word of God so plainely and manifestly delivered to her as that it is not possible she should universally fall from it or teach against it in things absolutely necessary to Salvation Besides it would be well waighed whether to believe or teach otherwise will not impeach the Article of the Creed concerning the Holy Catholike Church which we professe we believe For the Holy Catholike Church there spoken of containes not onely the whole Militant Church on earth but the whole Triumphant also in Heaven For so †Ecclesia hic tota accipiâ—…da est non solum ex parâ—…e quà pâ—…rinatur â—…terris c. vâ—…tiam ex illa parte quae in coelâ—… c. S. Aug. Eâ—…hir c 56. S. Augustine hath long since taught me Now if the whole Catholike Church in this large extent be Holy then certainly the whole Militant Church is Holy as well as the Triumphant though in a far lower degree in as much as all * Nemo ex toto Sanctus Optat. L 7 contra Parmen Sanctification all Holinesse is imperfect in this life as well in Churches as in Men. Holy then the whole Militant Church is For that which the Apostle speakes of Abraham is true of the Church which is a Body Collective made up of the spirituall seed of Abraham Rom. 11. If the root be holy so are the branches Well then the whole Militant Church is Holy Rom. 11. 16. and so we believe Why but will it not follow then Thaâ—… the whole Militant Church cannot possibly erre in the Foundations of the Faith That she may erre in Superstructures and Deductions and other by and unnecessary Truths if her Curiosity or other weaknesse carry her beyond or cause her to fall short of her Rule no doubt need be made But if She can erre either from the Foundation or in it She can be no longer Holy and that Article of the Creed is gone For if She can erre quite from the Foundation then She is nor Holy nor Church but becomes an Infidell Now this cannot be For †Dum Christus or at in Excelso Návicula id est Eâ—…clesia â—…tur fluctibus in profundo c sed quia Christus orat non potest mergi S. Aug. Serm 14 de Verb. Domi. c 2. Et Bâ—…llar L. 3 ac Eccle Milit c. 13. Praesidiâ—… Christi fulâ—…itur Ecclâ—…siae perpetuitas ut inter turbulentas aâ—…itationes formiâ—…abiles mâ—…tus c. salva tamâ—…n maneat Câ—… L. 2. Instit c. 15. §. 3. Ipsa Symboli 〈◊〉 admonemur perpetuam residâ—…re in Ecclesia Christi remission m Peccatorum Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 1. §. 17. Now remission of sins cannot be perpetuall in the Church if the Church it selfe be 〈◊〉 perpetuall But the Church it selfe cannot be perpetuall if it fall away all Divine Ancient and Moderne Romanists and Reformers agree in this That the whole Militant Church of Christ cannot fall away into generall Apostacy And if She Erre in the Foundation that is in some one or more Fundamentall Poynts of Faith then Shee may bee a Church of Christ still but not Holy but becomes Hereticall And most certain it is that no * Spiritus Sanctificationis non pâ—…ost inveniri in Haereticorum mentibus S. Hierom in Ierom. 10. Assemâ—…ly be it never so generall of such Hereticks is or can be Holy Other Errors that are of a meaner alay take not Holinesse from the Church but these that are dyed in graine cannot consist with Holinesse of which Faith in Christ is the very Foundation And therefore if we will keepe up our Creed the whole Militant Church must be still Holy For if it be not so still then there may be a time that Falsum may subesse Fidei Catholicae that falshood and that in a high degree in the very Article may be the Subject of the Catholike Faith which were no lesse then Blasphemy to affirme For we must still believe the Holy Catholike Church And if She be not still Holy then at that time when She is not so we believe a Falshood under the Article of the Catholike Faith Therefore a very dangerous thing it is to cry out in generall termes That the whole Catholike Militant Church can Erre and not limit nor distinguish in time that it can erre indeed for Ignorance it hath and Ignorance can Erre But Erre it cannot either by falling totally from the Foundation or by Hereticall Error in it For the Holinesse of the Church consists as much if not more in the Verity of the Faith as in the Integrity of Manners taught and Commanded in the Doctrine of Faith Now in this Discourse A. C. thinkes he hath met with me For he tells me that I may not only safely grant A. C. p. 56. that Protestants made the Division that is nâ—…w in the Church but further also and that with a safe Confidence as one did was it not you saith he That it was ill done of those who did first made the Separation Truly I doe not now remember whether I said it or no. But because A. C. shall have full satisfaction from me and without any Tergiversation if I did not
est aut quaelibet alia Ecclesiae communis Generalis Hispaniâ—… Galliciae Synodus celebretur c. Conc. Tolet. 4. Can. 3. They Decree That if there happen a Cause of Faith to be setled a Generall that is a Nationall Synod of all Spaine and Gallicia shall be held thereon And this in the yeare 643. Where you see it was then Catholike Doctrine in all Spaine that a Nationall Synod might be a Competent Iudge in a Cause of Faith And I would faine know what Article of the Faith doth more concerne all Christians in generall then that of Filioque And yet the Church of Rome her selfe made that Addition to the Creed without a Generall Councell as I have shewed e §. 24. Nu. 2. already And if this were practised so often and in so many places why may not a Nationall Councell of the Church of England doe the like as Shee did For Shee cast off the Pope's Vsurpation and as much as in her lay restored the King to his right That appeares by a a The Institution of a Christian man printed An. 1534. Booke subscribed by the Bishops in Henry the eight's time And by the b In Synodo Londinâ—…nsi Sess. 8. Die Veneris 29. Ianuarii An. 1562. Records in the Arch-bishop's Office orderly kept and to be seene In the Reformation which came after our c And so in the Reformation under Hezekiah 2. Chron. 29 under Iosia 4 Reg. 23. And in the time of Reccarcdus King of Spaine the Reformation there proceeded thus Quùm gloriosissimus Princeps omnes Regiminâ—… sui Pontifices in unum convenire mandâ—…sset c. Conâ—…il Tolet. 3. Can. 1. Cùm convemssemus Sacerdotes Domini apud urbem Toletanâ—… ut Râ—…giis imperiis atque jussis commoniti c. Concil Tolet. 4. in princ apud Caraâ—…zam And boâ—…h these Synods did treat of Matters of Faith Princes had their parts and the Clergy theirs And to these Two principally the power and direction for Reformation belongs That our Princes had their parts is manifest by their Calling together of the Bishops and others of the Clergie to consider of that which might seeme worthy Reformation And the Clergie did their part For being thus called together by Regall Power they met in the Nationall Synod of sixty two And the Articles there agreed on were afterwards confirmed by Acts of State and the Royall Assent In this Synod the Positive Truths which are delivered are more then the Polemicks So that a meere Calumnie it is That we professe only a Negative Religion True it is and we must thanke Rome for it our Confession must needs containe some Negatives For we cannot but deny that Images are to be adored Nor can we admit Maimed Sacraments Nor grant Prayers in an unknowne tongue And in a corrupt time or place 't is as necessary in Religion to deny falshood as to assert and vindicate Truth Indeed this latter can hardly be well and sufficiently done but by the former an Affirmative Verity being ever included in the Negative to a Falshood As for any Errour which might fall into this as any other Reformation if any such can be found then I say 't is most true Reformation especially in Cases of Religion is so difficult a worke and subject to so many Pretensions that 't is almost impossible but the Reformers should step too farre or fall too short in some smaller things or other which in regard of the farre greater benefit comming by the Reformation it selfe may well be passed over and borne withall But if there have beene any wilfull and grosse errours not so much in Opinion as in Fact †Quisquis occasione hujus Legis quam Regesterra Christo servientes ad emendandam vestram impietatem promulgaverunt res proprias vestras cupide appetit displicet nobis Quisquis denique ipsas res pauperum vel Baâ—…licas Congregationum c. non per Iustitiam sed per Avaritiamtenet displicet nobis S. Aug. Epist. 48. versus finem Sacriledge too often pretending to reforme Superstition that 's the Crime of the Reformers not of the Reformation and they are long since gone to God to answer it to whom I leave them But now before I go off from this Point I must put you in remembrance too That I spake at that time and so must all that will speak of that Exigent of the Generall Church as it was for the most part forced under the Government of the Romane Sea And this you understand well enough For in your very next words you call it the Romane Church Now I make no doubt but that as the Vniversall Catholike Church would have reform'd her selfe had she beene in all parts freed of the Romane Yoke so while she was for the most in these Westerne parts under that yoke the Church of Rome was if not the Onely yet the Chiefe Hindrance of Reformation And then in this sense it is more then cleare That if the Romane Church will neither Reform nor suffer Reformation it is lawfull for any other Particular Church to Reform it selfe so long as it doth it peaceably and orderly and keeps it selfe to the Foundation and free from * And this a Particular Church may doe but not a Schisme For a Schisme can never be peaceable nor orderly and seldome free from Sacriledge Out of which respects it may be as well as for the grâ—…evousnesse of the Crime S. Aug. cals it Sacrilegium Schismatis L. 1 de Bapt. cont Donat. c. 8. For usually they go together Sacriledge F. I asked Quo Iudice did this appeare to bee so VVhich Question I asked as not thinking it equity that Protestants in their own Cause should be Accusers VVitnesses and Iudges of the Romane Church B You doe well to tell the reason now why you § 25 asked this Question For you did not discover it at the Conference if you had you might then have received your Answer It is most true No man in common equity ought to be suffered to be Accuser Witnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause But is there not as little reason and equity too that any man that is to be accused should be the Accused and yet VVitnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause If the first may hold no man shall be Innocent and if the last none will be Nocent And what doe we here with in their owne Cause against the Romane Church Why Is it not your owne too against the Protestant Church And if it be a Cause common to both as certaine it is then neither Part alone may be Iudge If neither alone may judge then either they must be judged by a * §. 21. Nu. 9. Third which stands indifferent to both and that is the Scripture or if there be a jealousie or Doubt of the sense of the Scripture they must either both repaire to the Exposition of the Primitive Church and submit to that or both call and submit to a Generall
which a greater hath not And last of all whereas A. C. addes that confessedly Punct 6. A. C. p. 66. there is no such Perill That 's a most lowd untruth and an Ingenuous man would never have said it For in the same * §. 35. N. 12. place where I grant a possibility of Salvation in the Romane Church I presently adde that it is no secure way in regard of Romane Corruptions And A. C. cannot plead for himself that he either knew not this or that he overlook'd it for himselfe disputes against it as strongly as he can What modesty or Truth call you this For he that confesses a possibility of Salvation doth not therby confesse no perill of Damnation in the same way Yea but if some Protestants should say there is perill of Damnation to live and dye in the Romane Faith their saying is nothing in comparison of the number or worth of those that say there is none So A. C. againe And beside A. C. p. 66. they which say it are contradicted by their owne more Learned Brethren Here A. C. speakes very confusedly But whether he speake of Protestants or Romanists or mixes both the matter is not great For as for the Number and Worth of men they are no necessary Concluders for Truth Not Number for who would be judged by the Many The time was when the †Ingemuit totus Orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est S. Hier. advers Luciferian post medium Tâ—… 2. Arrianorum Uenenum non jam portiun culam quandam sed penè Orbem totum contaminaverat adeo ut propè cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur c. Vin. Lir. cont Haeres c. 6. Ecclesia non Parietibus consistit sed in Dogmatum veritate Ecclesia ibi est ubi fides vera est Caterùm ante annos quindecim aut viginti Parietes omnes hic Ecclesiarum Haeretici de Atrianis aliis Haereticis loquitur possidebant c. Ecclesia autem illic erat ubi sides vera erat S. Hier. in Psal. 133. Constantius Tantane Orbis terrae pars Liberi in te residet ut tu solus homini Impio de Athanasio loquitur subsidio venire pacem Orbis ac Mundi totius dirimere audeas Liberius Esto quod ego solus sim non tamen propterea Causa fidei fit inferior nam olim tres solum erant reperti qui Rggis mandato resisterent c. Theod. L. 2. Hist. Eccles. c. 16. Dialogo inter Constant. Imp. Liberium Papam So that Pope did not think Multitude any great note of the true Church Vbi sunt c. qui Ecclesiam multitudiné definiunt parvum gregem aspernantur c. Greg. Naz. Orat 25. prin Nay the Arrians were growne to that boldnesse that they Objected to the Catholicks of that time Paucitatem the thinnesse of their number Greg. Naz. Carm. de vita sua p. 24. Edit Paris 1611. Quum ejecti tamen essent de Civitatibus jactabant in desertis suis Synagogis illud Multi vocati pauci electi Socr. L. 1. Hist. Eccl. c. 10. Arrians were too many for the Orthodox Not Worth simply for that once * Error Origenis Tertulliani magna fuit in Ecclesià Dei Populi tentatio Vin Lir. cont Har. c. 23 24. misled is of all other the greatest misleader And yet God forbid that to Worth weaker men should not yeeld in difficult and Perplexed Questions yet so as that when Matters Fundamentall in the Faith come in Question they finally rest upon an higher and clearer certainty then can be found in either Number or VVeight of men Besides if you meane your own Partie you have not yet prooved your Partie more worthy for Life or Learning then the Protestants Proove that first and then it will be time to tell you how worthy many of your Popes have beene for either Life or Learning As for the rest you may blush to say it For all Protestants unanimously agree in this That there is great perill of Damnation for any man to live and dye in the Romane perswasion And you are not able to produce any one Protestant that ever said the contrary And therefore that is a most notorious slander where you say that they which affirme this perill of Damnation are contradicted by their owne more A. C. p. 66. Learned Brethren And thus having cleared the way against the Exceptions of A. C. to the two former Instances I will now proceed as I †§. 35. N. 4. promised to make this farther appeare that A. C. and his fellowes dare not stand to that ground which is here laid downe Namely That in Poynt of Faith and Salvation it is safest for a man to take that way which the Adversary Confesses to be true or whereon the differing Parties agree And that if they doe stand to it they must be forced to maintaine the Church of England in many things against the Church of Rome And first I Instance in the Article of our Saviour Christs Descent into Hell I hope the Church of Rome believes Punct 1. this Article and withall that Hell is the place of the Damned so doth the Church of England In this then these distenting Churches agree Therefore according to the former Rule yea and here in Truth too 't is safest for a man to believe this Article of the Creed as both agree That is that Christ descended in Soule into the Place of the Damned But this the Romanists will not endure at any hand For the †Sequuntur enim Thom p. 3. q. 52 Ar. 2. c. Verba ejus sunt Anima Christi per suam essentiam descendit soluÌ„ ad locum Inferni in quo justi detinebantur c. Schoole agree in it That the Soule of Christ in the time of his death went really no farther then in Limbum Patrum which is not the place of the Damned but a Region or Quarter in the upper part of Hell as they call it built up there by the Romanist without Licence of either Scripture or the Primitive Church And a man would wonder how those Builders with untempered mortar found light enough in that darke Place to build as they have done Ezec. 13. 10. Secondly I 'le instance in the Institution of the Sacrament in both kinds That Christ Instituted it so is confessed Punct 2. by both Churches that the Ancient Churches received it so is agreed by both Churches Therefore according to the former Rule and here in Truth too 't is safest for a man to receive this Sacrament in both kindes And yet here this Ground of A. C. must not stand for good no not at Rome but to receive in one kinde is enough for the Laity And the poore * Basiliense Concilium concessit Bohemis utriusque speciâ—…i usum modò faterentur id sibi concedi ab Ecclesiâ non autem
Animas reâ—…runt Pet. Matt. Loc. Com. Class 3. Ca. 15. Nu 4. they utterly deny any Resurrection of the Body after Death So with them that Article of the Creed is gone Now then if any man will guide his Faith by this Rule of A. C. The Consent of dissenting Parties or the Confession of the Adverse Part hee must denie the Resurrection of the Body from the Grave to Glory and believe none but that of the Soule from sinne to Grace which the Adversaries Confesse and in which the Dissenting Parties agree Punct 3. Thirdly in the great Dispute of all others about the Vnity of the Godhead All dissenting parties Iew Turke and Christian Among Christians Orthodoxe and Anti-Trinitarian of old And in these later times Orthodoxe and Socinian that Horrid and mighty monster of all Heresies agree in this That there is but one God And I hope it is as necessary to believe one God our Father as one Church our Mother Now will A. C. say here 't is safest believing as the dissenting Parties agree or as the Adverse Parties Confesse namely That there is but one God and so deny the Trinity and therewith the Sonne of God the Saviour of the world Fourthly in a Point as Fundamentall in the Faith as Punct 4. this Namely whether Christ be true and very God For which very Point most of the a Hebr. 11. 37. Cyrillus Alexandrinut malè audivit quod Ammonium Martyrem appellavit quem constitit temeritatis poenas dedisse non Necessitate negandi Christi in tormentis esse mortuum Socr. Hist. Eccl. L. 7. c. 14. Martyrs in the Primitive Church laid down their lives The dissenting Parties here were the Orthodoxe Believers who affirme Hee is both God and Man for so our Creed teaches us And all those Hereticks which affirme Christ to bee Man but denie him to bee God as the b Optatus L. 4. Cont. Parmen Arrians and c Tertul. L. de Prascrip c. 48. Carpocratians and d Tertul. Ibid. Cerinthus and e Tertul. L. de Carne Christi c. 14. Hebion with others and at this day the f Si ad Iesu Christi respicias Essentiam at que Naturam non nisi Hominem eum fuisse constantèr affirmaâ—…us Volkelius Lib. 3. de Religione Christianâ cap. 1. Socinians These dissenting Parties agree fully and clearely That Christ is Man Well then Dare A. C. sticke to his Rule here and say 't is safest for a Christian in this great Point of Faith to governe his Beliefe by the Consent of these dissenting Parties or the Confession and acknowledgement of the Adverse Partie and so settle his Beliefe that Christ is a meere Man and not God I hope hee dares not So then this Rule To Resolve a mans Faith into that in which the Dissenting Parties agree or which the Adverse Part confesses is as often false as true And false in as Great if not Greater Matters then those in which it is true And where 't is true A. C. and his fellowes dare not governe themselves by it the Church of Rome condemning those things which that Rule proves And yet while they talke of Certainty nay of Infallibility lesse will not serve their turnes they are driven to make use of such poore shifts as these which have no certainty at all of Truth in them but inferre falshood and Truth alike And yet for this also men will be so weake or so wilfull as to be seduced by them I told you * §. 35. Nu. 2. fine before That the force of the preceding Argument lies upon two things The one expressed and that 's past the other upon the Bye which comes now to be handled And that is your continuall poore Out-cry against us That we cannot be saved because we are out of the Church Sure if I thought I were out I would get in as fast as I could For we confesse as well as you That a Extra Ecclesiam veminem Vivificat Spiritus Sanctus S. Aug. Epist. 5 0. ad finem Field L. 1. de Eccles. c. 13. Vna est Fidelium Vniversalis Ecclesia extra quam nullus salvatur Conc Lateran Can. 1. And yet even there there is no mention of the Romane Church Out of the Catholike Church of Christ there is no Salvation But what do you meane by Out of the Church Sure out of the b And so doth A. C. too Out of the Catholiâ—… Romane Church there is no Possibility of Salvaâ—…on A C. p. 65. Romane Church Why but the Romane Church and the Church of England are but two distinct members of that Catholike Church which is spread over the face of the earth Therefore Rome is not the House where the Church dwels but Rome it selfe as well as other Particular Churches dwels in this great Universall House unlesse you will shut up the Church in Rome as the Donatists did in Africke I come a little lower Rome and oâ—…her Nationall Churches are in this Vniversall Catholike House as so many * And Daughter Sion was God's owne phrase of old of the Church Isa. 1. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hyppol Orat. de Consum mundi Et omnis Ecclesia Virgo appellata est S. Aug. Tr. 13. in S. Ioh. Daughters to whom under Christ the care of the Houshold is committed by God the Father and the Catholike Church the Mother of all Christians Rome as an Elder Sister †For Christ was to be preached to all Nations but that Preaching was to begin at Ierusalem S. Luc. 24. 47. according to the Prophesie Mic. 4. 2. And the Disciples were first called Christians at Antioch Act. 11. 26. And therefore there was a Church there before ever S. Peter came thence to settle One at Rome Nor is it an Opinion destitute either of Authority or Probability That the Faith of Christ was preached and the Sacraments administred here in England before any settlement of a Church in Rome For S. Gildas the Ancientest monument we have and whom the Romanists themselves reverence sayes expresly That the Religion of Christ was received in Britannie Tempore ut scimus summo Tiberii Caesaris c. In the later time of Tiberius Caesar Gildas deexcid Brit. whereas S. Peter kept in Iewrie long after Tiberius his death Therefore the first Conversion of this Iland to the Faith was not by S. Peter Nor from Rome which was not then a Church Against this Rich. Broughton in his Ecclesiasticall History of Great Britaine Centur. 1. C. 8. §. 4. sayes expresly That the Protestants do freely acknowledge that this Clause of the time of Tiberius tempore summo Tiberii Caesaris is wanting in other Copies of that holy Writer and namely in that which was set forth by Pol. Virgil and others Whereas first these words are expresse in a most faire and ancient Manuscript of Gildas to be seene in S t. Rob. Cotton's Study if any doubt it Secondly these words are as expresse in
to depart from the Foundation You have many dangerous Errours about the very Foundation in that which you call the Romane Faith But there I leave you to looke to your owne soule and theirs whom you seduce Yet this is true too That there is but one saving Faith But then every thing which you call De Fide of the Faith because some Councell or other hath defined it is not such a Breach from that One saving Faith as that he which expresly believes it not nay as that he which believes the Contrary is excluded from Salvation so his a S. 22. Nu. 5. Disobedience there while offer no violence to the Peace of the Church nor the Charity which ought to be among Christians And b Multa sunt de side quae non sunt absolutè necessaria as Salutem Bellar. L. 3. de Eccles. Milit. c. 14. §. Quinto si esset Bellarmine is forced to grant this There are many Things de Fide which are not absolutely necessary to salvation c Wald. Doct. Fid. l. 2. Ar. 2. § 23. Therefore there is a Latitude in the Faith especially in reference to different mens salvation To set d §. 38. Nu. 8. Bounds to this and strictly to define it for particular men Just thus farre you must believe in every Particular or incurre Damnation is no worke for my Pen. These two things I am sure of One That your peremptory establishing of so many things that are remote Deductions from the Foundation to bee believed as Matters of Faith necessary to Salvation hath with other Errours lost the Peace and Unity of the Church for which you will one day Answer And the other That you of Rome are gone farther from the Foundation of this One saving Faith then can ever be proved we of the Church of England have done But here A. C. bestirres himselfe finding that he is come upon the Point which is indeed most considerable A. C. p. 68. And first hee answers That it is * Pope Pelagius the second thought it was sufficient For when the Bishops of Istria deserted his Communion in Causa trium Capitulorum He first gives them an Account of his Faith that he embraced that Faith which the Apostles had delivered and the foure Synods explicated And then he adds Ubi ergo de Fidei firmitate nulla vobis poterit quastio vel suspicis generari c. Concil To. 4. p. 473. Edit Paris So then that Pope thought there could be no question made or suspition had of any mans faith that professed that Faith which the Apostles delivered as 't is explicated by those Great Councels And yet now with A. C. 't is not sufficient Or els he holds the Faith of our Lord Iesus Christ in such râ—…spect of persons contrary to the Apostles Rule S. James 2. 12. as that profession of it which was sufficient for Pope Pelagius shall not be sufficient for the poore Protestants not sufficient to beget a Confidence in this Case to say wee believe the Scriptures and the Creeds in the same sense which the Ancient Primitive Church believed them c. Most true if we onely say and do not believe And let them which believe not while they say they doe looke to it on all sides for on all sides I doubt not but such there are But if we doe say it you are bound in Charity to believe us unlesse you can prove the Contrary For I know no other proofe to men of any Point of Faith but Confession of it and Subscription to it And for these particulars we have made the one and done the other So 't is no bare saying but you have all the proofe that can be had or that ever any Church required For how farre that Beliefe or any other sinkes into a man's heart is for none to judge but God Next A. C Answers That if to say this be a sufficient Cause of Confidence he marvels why I make such A. C. p. 68. difficulty to bee Confident of the Salvation of Romane Catholikes who believe all this in a faire better manner then Protestants doe Truly to say this is not a sufficient cause but to say and believe it is And to take off A. C s. wonder why I make difficulty great difficulty of the salvation of Romane Catholikes who he sayes believe all this and in a farre better manner then Protestants doe I must be bold to tell him That Romanists are so farre from believing this in a better manner then we do that under favour they believe not part of this at all And this is most manifest For the Romanists dare not believe but as the Romane Church believes And the Romane Church at this day doth not believe the Scripture and the Creeds in the sense in the which the Ancient Primitive Church received them For the Primitive Church never interpreted Christ's descent into Hell to be no lower then Limbus Patrum Nor did it acknowledge a Purgatory in a side-part of Hell Nor did it ever interpret away halfe the Sacrament from Christ's owne Institutior which to breake * Stapl. Returne of Vntruths upon B. Iewell Art 2. Vntruth 49 fol. 44. Stapleton confesses expresly is a damnable Errour Nor make the Intention of the Priest of the Essence of Baptisme Nor believe worship due to Images Nor dreame of a Transubstantiation which the Learned of the Romane Partie dare not understand properly for a change of one substance into another for then they must grant that Christ's reall and true Body is made of the Bread and the Bread changed into it which is properly Transubstantiation Nor yet can they expresse it in a credible way as appeares by †Est totalis Conversio substantiae Panis Vini in Corpus Sanguinâ—…m Domini Bellar. L. 3. de Euchar. c. 18. §. 1. Substantiaâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Transubstantiatio sicut Ecclesia appellat Greg. de Valen. To. 4 〈◊〉 q. 3. punct 3. Now you shall see what stuffe Bellarmine makes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Conversio Panis in Corpus Domini nec est Productiva nâ—… Conservatâ—… sed Adductiva Nam Corpus Domini praeexistit ante Conversionem 〈◊〉 non sub speâ—…iebus Panis Conversio igitur non facit ut Corpus Christ simplicitèr esse incipiat sed ut incipiat esse sub speciebus Panis 〈◊〉 Bellar. L. 3. de Euchar. c. 18. §. Ex his colligimus So upon the whole matter there shall be a totall Conversion of the Bread into the Body of Christ And yet there shall be no Conversion at all but a Bringing of the Body of Christ before praeexistent to be now under the Species of Bread where before it was not Now this is meerly Translocation 't is not Transubstantiation And I would have Bellarm. or any Iesuite for him shew where Conversio Adductiva is read in any good Author But when Bellar. comes to the Recognition of his workes upon this place he tels us That some excepted against him
how farre every man must believe as it relates to the possibility or impossibility of his salvation in every particular And that which the Church cannot teach men cannot learne of her She can teach the Foundation and men were happy if they would learne it and the Church more happy would she teach nothing but that as necessary to Salvation for certainly nothing but that is Necessary Now then whereas after all this the Iesuite tels us that F. Upon this and the precedent Conferences the Lady rested in judgement fully satisfied as she told a confident Friend of the Truth of the Romane Churches faith Yet upon frailty and feare to offend the King she yeelded to goe to Church for which she was after very sorry as soâ—… of her friends can testifie B. This is all personall And how that Honourable § 39 Lady was then setled in Conscience how in Iudgement I know not This I think is made cleare enough That that which you said in this and the precedent Conferences could settle neither unlesse in some that were setled or setling before As little do I know what she told any confident friend of her approoving the Roman cause No more whether it were frailty or feare or other Motive that made her yeeld to go to Church nor how sorry shee was for it nor who can testifie that sorrow This I am sure of if shee repent and God forgive her other sinnes she will more easily be able to Answer for her comming to Church then for her leaving of the Church of England and following the superstitions and errours which the Romane Church hath added in Point of Faith and the Worship of God For the Lady was then living when I answered thus Now whereas I said the Lady would farre more easily be able to answer for her comming to Church A. C. p. 73. then for her leaving the Church of England To this A. C. excepts and sayes That I neither prove nor can prove that it is lawfull for one perswaded especially as the Lady was to goe to the Protestant Church There 's a great deale of cunning and as much malice in this passage but I shall easily pluck the sting out of the Tayle of this Waspe And first I have proved it already through this whole Discourse and therefore can prove it That the Church of England is an Orthodoxe Church And therefore with the same labour it is proved that men may lawfully goe unto it and communicate with it for so a man not onely may but ought to doe with an Orthodoxe Church And a Romanist may communicate with the Church of England without any Offence in the Nature of the thing thereby incurred But if his Conscience through mis-information checke at it he should do well in that Case rather to informe his Conscience then for sake any Orthodoxe Church whatsoever Secondly A. C. tels me plainly That I cannot prove that a man so perswaded as the Lady was may goe to the Protestant Church that is That a Romane Catholike may not goe to the Protestant Church Why I never went about to proove that a Romane Catholike beiug and continuing such might against his Conscience goe to the Protestant Church For these words A man perswaded as the Lady is are A. C s. words they are not mine Mine are not simply that the Lady might or that she might not but Comparative they are That she might more easily answer to God for comming to then for going from the Church of England And that is every way most true For in this doubtfull time of hers when upon my Reasons given shee went againe to Church when yet soone after as you say at least shee was sorrie for it I say at this time she was in heart and resolution a Romane Catholike or she was not If she were not as it seemes by her doubting shee was not then fully resolved then my speech is most true that she might more easily answer God for comming to Service in the Church of England then for leaving it For a Protestant shee had beene and for ought I knew at the end of this Conference so she was and then 't was no sin in it selfe to come to an Orthodoxe Church nor no sinne against her Conscience she continuing a Protestant for ought which then appeared to mee But if she then were a Romane Catholike as the Jesuite and A. C. seeme confident she was yet my speech is true too For then she might more easily answer God for comming to the Church of England which is Orthodoxe and leaving the Church of Rome which is superstitious then by leaving the Church of England communicate with all the superstitions of Rome Now the cunning and the malignity of A. C. lies in this he would faine have the world think that I am so Indifferent in Religion as that I did maintaine the Lady being conscientiously perswaded of the Truth of the Romish Doctrine might yet against both her conscience and against open and avowed profession come to the Protestant Church Neverthelesse in hope his cunning malice would not be discovered against this his owne sense that is and not mine he brings diverse Reasons As first 't is not lawfull for one affected as that Lady was that is for one that is resolved of the Truth of the Romane Church to goe to the Church of England there and in that manner to serve and worship God Because saith A. C. that were to halt on both sides to serve two Masters and to dissemble with God and the world Truly I say the A. C. p. 73. same thing with him And that therefore neither may a Protestant that is resolved in Conscience that the profession of the true Faith is in the Church of England goe to the Romish Church there and in that manner to serve and worship God Neither need I give other Answer because A. C. urges this against his owne fiction not my assertion Yet since he will so doe I shall give a particular Answer to each of them And to this first Reason of his I say thus That to Believe Religion after one sort and to practise it after another and that in the maine points of worship the Sacrament and Invocation is to halt on both sides to serve two Masters and to dissemble with God and the world And other then this I never taught nor ever said that which might inferre the Contrary But A. C. give me leave to tell you your fellow Iesuite * Quintò quaeritur An ubi Catholici unà cum Haereticis versantur licitum sit Catholico adiâ—… Templa ad quae Haeretici conveniunt eorum interesse Conventibus c. Respondeo Sirei Naturam spectemus non est per se malum sed suà naturâ indifferens c. Ec postea Si Princeps haeresi laboret jubeat subditos Catholicos sub poena Mortis vel Confiscationis bonorum frequentare templa Haereticoâ—… quid tum faciendum Respondeo si jubeat
And this was caused partly by my owne Backwardnesse to deale with these men whom I have ever observed to be great Pretenders for Truth and Unity but yet such as will admit neither unlesse They and their Faction may prevaile in all As if no Reformation had beene necessary And partly because there were about the same time three Conferences held with Fisher. Of these this was the Third And could not therefore conveniently come abroad into the world till the two former were ready to leade the way which till that time they were not And this is in part the Reason also why this Tract crept into the end of a larger Worke. For since that Worke contained in a manner the substance of all that passed in the two former Conferences And that this Third in divers points concurred with them and depended on them I could not thinke it Substantive enough to stand alone But besides this Affinity betweene the Conferences I was willing to have it passe as silently as it might at the end of another Worke and so perhaps little to be looked after because I could not hold it worthy nor can I yet of that Great Duty and Service which I owe to my Deare Mother the Church of England There is a cause also why it lookes now abroad againe with Alteration and Addition And 't is fit I should give your Majesty an Account of that too This Tract was first printed in the yeare 1624. And in the yeare 1626. another Jesuite or the same under the name of A. C. printed a Relation of this Conference and therein tooke Exceptions to some Particulars and endeavoured to Confute some Things deliver'd therein by me Now being in yeares and unwilling to dye in the Jesuites debt I have in this Second Edition done as much for him and somewhat more For he did but skip up and downe and labour to pick a hole here and there where he thought he might fasten and where it was too hard for him let it alone But I have gone thorough with him And I hope given him a full Confutation or at least such a Bone to gnaw as may shake his teeth if he looke not to it And of my Addition to this Discourse this is the Cause But of my Alteration of some things in it this A. C. his Curiosity to winnow me made me in a more curious manner fall to sifting of my selfe and that which had formerly past my Penne. And though I blesse God for it I found no cause to alter anything that belonged either to the Substance or Course of the Conference Yet somewhat I did finde which needed better and cleerer expression And that I have altered well knowing I must expect Curious Observers on all hands Now Why this Additionall Answer to the Relation of A. C. came no sooner forth hath a Cause too and I shall truly represent it A. C. his Relation of the Conference was set out 1626. I knew not of it in some yeares after For it was printed among divers other things of like nature either by M. Fisher himselfe or his friend A. C. When I saw it I read it over carefully and found myselfe not a little wrong'd in it but the Church of England and indeed the Cause of Religion much more I was before this time by Your Majesties Great Grace and undeserved favour made Deane of Your Majesties Chappell Royall and a Counsellor of State and hereby as the Occasions of those times were made too much a Stranger to my Bookes Yet for all my Busie Imployments it was still in my Thoughts to give A. C. an Answer But then I fell into a most dangerous Feaver And though it pleased God beyond all hope to restore mee to health yet long I was before I recover'd such strength as might enable mee to undertake such a Service And since that time how I have beene detained and in a manner forced upon other many various and Great Occasions your Majesty knowes best And how of late I have beene used by the Scandalous and Scurrilous Pennes of some bitter men whom I heartily beseech God to forgive the world knowes Little Leasure and lesse Encouragement given me to Answer a Iesuite or set upon other Services while I am under the Prophets affliction Psal. Psal. 50. 19 20 50. betweene the Mouth that speakes wickednesse and the tongue that sets forth deceite and slander mee as thicke as if I were not their owne Mothers Sonne In the midst of these Libellous out-cries against me some Divines of great Note and Worth in the Church came to mee One by One and no One knowing of the Others Comming as to mee they protested and perswaded with me to Reprint this Conference in my owne Name This they thought would vindicate my Reputation were it generally knowne to be mine I Confesse I looked round about these Men and their Motion And at last my Thoughts working much upon themselves I began to perswade my selfe that I had beene too long diverted from this necessary Worke. And that perhaps there might be In voce hominum Tuba Dei in the still voice of men the Loud Trumpet of God which sounds many wayes sometimes to the eares and sometimes to the hearts of men and by meanes which they thinke not of And as * S. Aug. Serm. 63. De Diversis c. 10. Hee speakes of Christ disputing in the Temple with the Elders of the Iewes And they heard Christ the Essentiall Word of the Father with admiration to astonishment yetbeleeved him not S. Luk. 2. 47. And the Word theâ—… spake to them by a meanes they thought not of namely per Filium Dei in pucro by the Sonne of God himselfe under the Vaile of our humane nature S. Augustine speakes A Word of God there is Quod nunquam tacet sed non semper auditur which though it be never silent yet is not alwayes heard That it is never silent is his great Mercy and that it is not alwayes heard is not the least of our Misery Vpon this Motion I tooke time to deliberate And had scarce time for that much lesse for the Worke. Yet at last to every of these men I gave this Answer That M. Fisher or A. C. for him had beene busie with my former Discourse and that I would never reprint that unlesse I might gaine time enough to Answer that which A. C. had charged a fresh both upon mee and the Cause While my Thoughts were thus at worke Your Majesty fell upon the same Thing and was graciously pleased not to Command but to VVish me to reprint this Conference and in mine own Name And this openly at the Councel-Table in Michaelmas-Terme 1637. I did not hold it fit to deny having in all the Course of my service obayed your Majesties Honourable and Just Motions as Commands But Craved leave to shew what little leasure I had to doe it and what Inconveniences might attend upon it When this did not serve to excuse
mee I humbly submitted to that which I hope was Gods Motion in Your Majesties And having thus layd all that Concernes this Discourse before your Gracious and most Sacred Majesty I most humbly present you with the Booke it selfe which as I heartily pray You to protect so doe I wholly submit it to the Church of England with my Prayers for Her Prosperity and my Wishes that I were able to doe Her better Service I have thus acquainted Your Majesty with all Occasions which both formerly and now againe have led this Tract into the light In all which I am a faithfull Relater of all Passages but am not very well satisfied who is now my Adversary M. Fisher was at the Conference Since that I finde A. C. at the print And whether These be two or but One Jesuite I know not since scarce One amongst them goes under One Name But for my owne part and the Error is not great if I mistake I thinke they are One and that One M. Fisher. That which induces me to thinke so is First the Great Inwardnesse of A. C. with M. Fisher which is so great as may well be thought to neighbour upon Identity Secondly the Stile of A. C. is so like M. Fishers that I doubt it was but one and the same hand that moov'd the penne Thirdly A. C. sayes expresly That the Jesuite himselfe made the Relation of the first A. C. p. 67. Conference with D. VVhite And in the Title Page of the Worke That Relation as well as This is said to be made by A. C. and published by VV. I. Therefore A. C. and the Iesuite are one and the same person or els one of these places hath no Truth in it Now if it be M. Fisher himselfe under the Name of A. C. then what needs these * Preface to the Relation of this Conference by A. C. words The Jesuite could be content to let passe the Chaplaines Censure as one of his Ordinary persecutions for the Catholicke Faith but A. C. thought it necessary for the Common Cause to defend the sincerity and Truth of his Relation and the Truth of some of the Chiefe Heads contained in it In which Speech give me leave to observe to your Sacred Majesty how grievously you suffer him and his Fellowes to he persecuted for the Catholicke Faith when your poore Subject and Servant cannot set out a true Copie of a Conference held with the Jesuite jussu Superiorum but by and by the man is persecuted God forbid I should ever offer to perswade a Persecution in any kind or practise it in the least For to my remembrance I have not given him or his so much as course Language But on the other side God forbid too That your Majesty should let both Lawes and Discipline sleepe for feare of the Name of Persecution and in the meane time let M. Fisher and his Fellowes Angle in all parts of your Dominions for your Subjects If in your Grace and Goodnesse you will spare their Persons Yet I humbly beseech You see to it That they be not suffer'd to lay either their Weeles or baite their Hookes or cast their Nets in every streame lest that Tentation grow both too generall and too strong I know they have many Devices to worke their Ends But if they will needs be fishing let them use none but * And S. Aug. is very full against the use of 〈◊〉 retiâ—… unlawfull Nets And saith the Fishermen theselves have greatest cause to take heed of them S. Aug. L. de Fide Oper. c. 17. Lawfull Netts Let 's have no dissolving of Oathes of Allegiance No deposing no killing of Kings No blowing up of States to settle Quod Volumus that which faine they would have in the Church with many other Nets as dangerous as these For if their Profession of Religion weâ—…e as goood as they pretend it is if they cannot Compasse it by Good Meanes I am sure they ought not to atttempt it by Bad. For if they will doe evill that good may come thereof the Apostle tells me Their Damnation's just Rom. 3. Rom. 3. 8. Now as I would humbly Beseech Your Majesty to keepe a serious Watch upon these Fisher-men which pretend S. Peter but fish not with His Net So would I not have You neglect another sort of Anglers in a Shallower Water For they have some ill Nets too And if they may spread them when and where they will God knowes what may become of it These have not so strong a Backe abroad as the Romanists have but that 's no Argument to suffer them to encrease They may grow to equall Strength with Number And Factious People at home of what Sect or fond Opinion soever they be are not to be neglected Partly because they are so Neare And 't is ever a dangerous Fire that begins in the Bed-straw And partly because all those Domesticke Evills which threaten a Rent in Church or State are with far more safety prevented by VVisdome then punished by Justice And would men consider it right they are far more beholding to that man that keepes them from falling then to him that takes them up though it be to set the Arme or the Leg that 's broken in the Fall In this Discourse I have no aime to displease any nor any hope to please all If I can helpe on to Truth in the Church and the Peace of the Church together I shall be glad be it in any measure Nor shall I spare to speake Necessary Truth out of too much Love of Peace Nor thrust on Vnnecessary Truth to the Breach of that Peace which once broken is not so easily soder'd againe And if for Necessary Truths sake onely any man will be offended nay take nay snatch at that offence which is not given I know no fence for that 'T is Truth and I must tell it 'T is the Gospell and I must preach it 1 Cor. 9. And far safer it is in this 1 Cor. 9. 16. Case to beare Anger from men then a VVoe from God And where the Foundations of Faith are shaken be it by Superstition or Prophanenesse he that puts not to his hand as firmely as he Can to support them is too wary and hath more Care of himselfe then of the Cause of Christ. And 't is a VVarinesse that brings more danger in the end then it shunnes For the Angell of the Lord issued out a Curse against the Inhabitants of Meroz because they came not to helpe the Lord to helpe the Lord against the mighty Iudg. 5. I know 't is a Great ease to let every Thing be as it will and every Iudg. 5. 23. man beleeve and doe as he list But whether Governors in State or Church doe their duty therewhile is easily seene since this is an effect of no King in Israel Iudg. 17. Iudg. 17. 6. The Church of Christ upon Earth may bee compared to a Hive of Bees and that can bee
no where so steddily placed in this world but it will be in some danger And men that care neither for the Hive nor the Bees have yet a great minde to the Honey And having once tasted the sweet of the Churches Maintenance swallow that for Honey which one day will be more bitter then Gall in their Bowells Now the King and the Priest more then any other are bound to looke to the Integrity of the Church in Doctrine and Manners and that in the first place For that 's by farre the Best Honey in the Hive But in the second place They must be Carefull of the Churches Maintenance too els the Bees shall make Honey for others and have none left for their owne necessary sustenance and then all 's lost For we see it in daily and common use that the Honey is not taken from the Bees but they are destroyed first Now in this great and Busie Worke the King and the Priest must not feare to put their hands to the Hive though they be sure to be stung And stung by the Bees whose Hive and House they preserve It was King Davids Case God grant it be never Yours They came about mee saith the Psal. 118. 12. Psal. 118. * Apum Similitudine ardorem not at vesanum Non est enim in illis multum roboris sed mira Excandescentia Calv in Psal. 118. like Bees This was hard usage enough yet some profit some Honey might thus be gotten in the End And that 's the Kings Case But when it comes to the Priest the Case is alter'd They come about him like VVaspes or like Hornets rather all sting and no Honey there And all this many times for no offence nay sometimes for Service done them would they see it But you know who said Behold I come shortly and my reward is with mee to give to every man according as his VVorkes shall bee Revel 22. And he himselfe is so Revel 22. 12. * Gen 〈◊〉 exceeding great a Reward as that the manifold stings which are in the World howsoever they smart here are nothing when they are pressed out with that exceeding weight of Glory which shall be revealed Rom. 8. Rom. 8. 18. Now one Thing more let me be bold to Observe to Your Majesty in particular concerning Your Great Charge the Church of England 'T is in an hard Condition Shee professes the Ancient Catholike Faith And yet the Romanist condemnes Her of Novelty in her Doctrine Shee practises Church Government as it hath beene in use in all Ages and all Places where the Church of Christ hath taken any Rooting both in and ever since the Apostles Times And yet the Separatist condemnes Her for Antichristianisme in her Discipline The plaine truth is She is between these two Factions as betweene two Milstones and unlesse Your Majesty looke to it to VVhose Trust She is committed Shee 'll be grownd to powder to an irrepairable both Dishonour and losse to this Kingdome And 't is very Remarkeable that while both these presse hard upon the Church of England both of them Crye out upon Persecution like froward Children which scratch and kicke and bite and yet crye out all the while as if themselves were killed Now to the Romanist I shall say this The Errors of the Church of Rome are growne now many of them very Old And when Errors are growne by Age and Continuance to strength they which speake for the Truth though it be farre Older are ordinarily challenged for the Bringers in of New Opinions And there is no Greater Absurdity stirring this day in Christendome then that the Reformation of an Old Corrupted Church will we nill wee must be taken for the Building of a New And were not this so we should never be troubled with that idle and impertinent Question of theirs VVhere was your Church before Luther For it was just there where their's is now * There is no other difference betweene Vs Rome then betwixt a Church miserably Corrupted and happily purged c. Ios. Hall B. of Exon. In his Apologeticall Advertisement to the Reader p. 192. Approved by Tho. Morton B. then of Cov. Lich. now of 〈◊〉 in the Letters printed by the B. of Exeter in his Treatise called The Reconciler p. 68 And D. Field in his Appen to the third part c. 2. where he cites Calv. to the same purpose L. 4. Inst. c. 2. §. 11. One and the same Church still no doubt of that One in Substance but not one in Condition of state and purity Their part of the same Church remaining in Corruption and Our part of the same Church under Reformation The same Naaman and he a Syrian still but Leprous with them and Cleansed with us The same man still And for the Seperatist and him that layes his Grounds for Separation or Change of Discipline though all hee sayes or can say be in Truth of Divinity and among Learned Men little better then ridiculous yet since these fond Opinions have gain'd some ground among your people to such among them as are wilfully set to follow their blinde Guides thorough thicke and thin till * S. Matth. 15. 14 they fall into the Ditch together I shall say nothing But for so many of them as meane well and are onely misled by Artifice and Cunning Concerning them I shall say thus much only They are Bells of passing good mettle and tuneable enough of themselves and in their owne disposition and a world of pity it is that they are Rung so miserably out of Tune as they are by them which have gotten power in and over their Consciences And for this there is yet Remedy enough but how long there will bee I know not Much talking there is Bragging Your Majesty may call it on both sides And when they are in their ruffe they both exceed all Moderation and Truth too So farre till both Lips and Penns open for all the World like a Purse without money Nothing comes out of this and that which is worth nothing out of them And yet this nothing is made so great as if the Salvation of Soules that Great worke of the Redeemer of the World the Sonne of God could not be effected without it And while the one faction cryes up the Church above the Scripture and the other the Scripture to the neglect and Contempt of the Church which the Scripture it selfe teaches men both to honour and obey They have so farre endangered the Beliefe of the One and the Authority of the Other as that neither hath its Due from a great part of Men. Whereas according to Christs Institution The Scripture where 't is plaine should guide the Church And the Church where there 's Doubt or Difficulty should expound the Scripture Yet so as neither the Scripture should be forced nor the Church so bound up as that upon Just and farther Evidence Shee may not revise that which in any Case hath slipt by Her
What Successe this Great Distemper caused by the Collision of two such Factions may have I know not I cannot Prophesie This I know That the use which Wise men should make of other mens falles is not to fall with them And the use which Pious and Religious men should make of these great Flawes in Christianity is not to Joyne with them that make them nor to helpe to dislocate those maine Bones in the Body which being once put out of Ioynt will not easily be set againe And though I cannot Prophesie yet I feare That Atheisme and Irreligion gather strength while the Truth is thus weakned by an Vnworthy way of Contending for it And while they thus Contend neither part Consider that they are in a way to induce upon themselves and others that Contrary Extreame which they seeme most both to feare and oppose Besides This I have ever Observed That many Rigid Professors have turn'd Roman Catholikes and in that Turne have beene more Iesuited then any other And such Romanists as have chang'd from them have for the most part quite leaped over the Meane and beene as Rigid the other way as Extremity it selfe And this if there be not both Grace and VVisdome to governe it is a very Naturall Motion For a Man is apt to thinke he can never runne farre enough from that which he once begins to hate And doth not Consider therewhile That where Religion Corrupted is the thing he hates a Fallacy may easily be put upon him For he ought to hate the Corruption which depraves Religion and to runne from it but from no part of Religion it selfe which he ought to Love and Reverence ought hee to depart And this I have Observed farther That no One thing hath made Conscientious men more wavering in their owne mindes or more apt and easie to be drawne aside from the sincerity of Religion professed in the Church of England then the Want of Uniforme and Decent Order in too many Churches of the Kingdome And the Romanists have beene apt to say The Houses of God could not be suffer'd to lye so Nastily as in some places they have done were the True worship of God observed in them Or did the People thinke that such it were 'T is true the Inward VVorship of the Heart is the Great Service of God and no Service acceptable without it But the Externall worship of God in his Church is the Great VVitnesse to the World that Our heart stands right in that Service of God Take this away or bring it into Contempt and what Light is there left to shine before men that they may see our Devotion and glorifie our Father which is in Heaven And to deale clearely with Your Majesty These Thoughts are they and no other which have made me labour so much as I have done for Decency and an Orderly settlement of the Externall Worship of God in the Church For of that which is Inward there can be no Witnesse among men nor no Example for men Now no Externall Action in the world can be Uniforme without some Ceremonies And these in Religion the Ancienter they bee the better so they may fit Time and Place Too many Over-burden the Service of God And too few leave it naked And scarce any Thing hath hurt Religion more in these broken Times then an Opinion in too many men That because Rome had thrust some Vnnecessary and many Superstitious Ceremonies upon the Church therefore the Reformation must have none at all Not considering therewhile That Ceremonies are the Hedge that fence the Substance of Religion from all the Indignities which Prophanenesse and Sacriledge too Commonly put upon it And a Great Weaknesse it is not to see the strength which Ceremonies Things weake enough in themselves God knowes adde even to Religion it selfe But a farre greater to see it and yet to Cry Them downe all and without Choyce by which their most hated Adversaries climb'd up and could not crie up themselves and their cause as they doe but by them And Divines of all the rest might learne and teach this VVisdome if they would since they see all other Professions which helpe to beare downe their Ceremonies keepe up their owne therewhile and that to the highest I have beene too bold to detaine Your Majesty so long But my Griefe to see Christendome bleeding in Dissention and which is worse triumphing in her owne Blood and most angry with them that would study her Peace hath thus transported me For truely it Cannot but grieve any man that hath Bowells to see All men seeking but as S. Paul foretold Phil. 2. Their owne things and not the things which are Phil. 2. 21. Jesus Christs Sua Their owne surely For the Gospell of Christ hath nothing to doe with them And to see Religion so much so Zealously pretended and called upon made but the Stalking-Horse to shoote at other Fowle upon which their Ayme is set In the meane time as if all were Truth and Holinesse it selfe no Salvation must be possible did it lye at their Mercy but in the Communion of the One and in the Conventicles of the Other As if either of these now were as the Donatists of old reputed themselves the only men in whom Christ at his comming to Judgment should finde Faith No saith * S. Aug. Epist. 48. S. Augustine and so say I with him Da veniam non Credimus Pardon us I pray we cannot beleeve it The Catholike Church of Christ is neither Rome nor a Conventicle Out of that there 's no Salvation I easily Confesse it But out of Rome there is and out of a Conventicle too Salvation is not shut up into such a narrow Conclave In this ensuing Discourse therefore I have endeavour'd to lay open those wider-Gates of the Catholike Church confined to no Age Time or Place Nor knowing any Bounds but That Faith which was once and but once for all deliver'd to the Saints S. Jude 3. And in my pursuite of this way I have searched after and deliver'd S. Iod. 3. with a single heart that Truth which I professe In the publishing whereof I have obeyed Your Majesty discharg'd my Duty to my power to the Church of England * 1 S. Pet. 3. 15. Given account of the Hope that is in me And so testified to the world that Faith in which I have lived and by God's blessing and favour purpose to dye But till Death shall most unfainedly remaine Your Majesties most faithfull SUBJECT and most Humble and Obliged SERVANT W. CANT A RELATION Of the Conference betweene WILLIAM LAWD Then L. Bishop of S. Davids now Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBURY AND M. Fisher the Jesuite by the command of KING JAMES Of ever Blessed Memorie With an Answer to such Ecceptions as A. C. takes against it F The Occasion of this Conference was B THe Occasion of this Third § 1 Conference you should know fufficiently You were an Actor in it as well as in two
wont to have more respect than so If His Majestie did say it there is Truth in the speech The error is yours only by mistaking what is meant by Loosing the Holy Ghost For a Particular Church may be said to loose the Holy Ghost two wayes or in two Degrees 1. The one when it looses such speciall assistance of that Blessed Spirit as preserves it from all dangerous Errors and sinnes and the temporall punishment which is due unto them And in this sense the Greeke Church did perhaps loose the Holy Ghost for they erred against Him they sinned against God And for this or other sinnes they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turke in which they yet are and from which God in his mercy deliver them But this is rather to be called an Error circa Spiritum Sanctum about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost then an error against the Holy Ghost 2. The other is when it looses not only this assistance but all assistance ad hoc to this that they may remaine any longer a true Church and so Corinth and Ephesus and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost But in this sense the whole Greeke Church lost not the Holy Ghost For they continue a true Church in the maine substance to and at this day though erroneous in this Poynt which you mention and perhaps in some other too F. The Ladies friend not knowing what to answer called in the Bishop who sitting downe first excused himselfe as one unprovided and not much studied in Controversies and desiring that in Case he should faile yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of B. This is most true For I did indeed excuse § 6 my selfe and I had great reason so to doe And my Reason being grounded upon Modestie for the most part there I leave it Yet this it may be fit others should know that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference nor the full time of foure and twenty hourâ—…s to bethinke my selfe And this I take upon my Credit is most true whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Branne your daily work and came throughly furnished to the businesse and might so leade on the Controversie to what your selfe pleased and I was to follow as I could * De util Credendi c. 2. S. Augustine said once Scio me invalidum esse I know I am weake and yet he made good his Cause And so perhaps may I against you And in that I prefer'd the Cause before my particular credit that which I did was with modesty and according to Reason For there is no Reason the waight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man And great Reason that the personall Defects of any man should presse himselfe but not the Cause Neither did I enter upon this Service out of any forwardnesse of my owne but commanded to it by Supreame Authority F. It having an hundred better Schollers to maintaine it than he To which I said there were a thousand better Schollers than I to maintaine the Catholike Cause B. In this I had never so poore a Conceit of the Protestants Cause as to thinke that they had § 7 but an hundred better than my selfe to maintaine it That which hath an hundred may have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than you And I shall ever bee glad that the Church of England which at this time if my memory reflect not amisse I named may have farre more able Defendants than my selfe I shall never envie them but rejoyce for Her And I make no Question but that if I had named a thousand you would have multiplied yours into ten Thousand for the Catholike Cause as you call it And this Confidence of yours hath ever beene fuller of noyse than Proofe But you proceed F. Then the Question about the Greeke Church being proposed I said as before That it had erred B. Then I thinke the Question about the § 8 Greeke Church was proposed But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause you would wring and extort from me then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denied But every Errour denies not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The Bishop said That the Errour was not in Point Fundamentall B. I was not so peremptory My speech § 9 was That diverse Learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greeks expressed themselves it was a Question not simply Fundamentall I know and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grievous errour in Divinity And sure it would have grated the Foundation if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequality betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is a Non ex Filio sed Spiritum Filii esse diâ—…imus Damascon L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per filium Ibid. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons I dare not denie them to bee a true Church for this though I confesse them an Erroneous Church in this Particular Now that diverse learned men were of Opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of b Pluralitas in Uoce salvat â unitate in re non repugnat uniâ—…ati Fidei Durand Lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. speech and therefore not Fundamentall is evident c Magist. 1. Sent. d. 11. D. Sane sciendum est quòd licet in praesenti Articulo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent tamen sensu non differunt c. Bandinus L. 1. de Trin. d. 11 Bonavent in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis infensissimus quùm dixit Graeces objicere curiâ—…sitatem Romanis addendo I ilioque Quia sine hujus Articuli professione salus er at non Respondet negando salutem esse sed dicit tantùm opportunam fuisse Determinationem propter periculum Et postea §. 15. Sunt qui volunt sustinere opinionem Graecorum Latinorum distinguendo duplicem modum Procedendi Sed fortè si duo sapientes unus Graecus alter Latinus uterque verus amator Veritatis non propriae dictionis c. de hac visa contrarietate disquirerent pateret utique tandem ipsâ—…m Contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem sicut est Vocalis Scotus in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis diserepantia in voce potiùs est modo
is in Scripture it selfe is not bright enough it cannot beare sufficient witnesseto itselfe The Testimonie of the Holy Ghost that is most infallible but ordinarily it is not so much as considerable in this Question which is not how or by what meanes we believe but how the Scripture may be proposed as a Credible Object fit for Beliefe And for Reason no man expects that that should proove it it doth service enough if it enable us to disproove that which misguided men conceive against it If none of these then be an Absolute and sufficient meanes to prove it either we must finde out another or see what can bâ—… more wrought out of these And to all this again A. C. sayes nothing For the Tradition of the Church then certaine it is wee must distinguish the Church before wee can judge right of the Validity of the Tradition For if the speech bee of the Prime Christian Church the Apostles Disciples and such as had immediate Revelation from Heaven no question but the Voyce and Tradition of this Church is Divine not aliquo modo in a sort but simply and the Word of God from them is of like Validity written or delivered And against this Tradition of which kinde this That the Bookes of Scripture are the Word of God is the most generall and uniforme the Church of England never excepted And when S. †L. 1. cont Epis. Fund c. 5. Ego vero non crederem Evangelio nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret Authoritas Augustine said I would not believe the Gospell unlesse the Authority of the Catholike Church mooved mee which Place you urged at the Conference though you are now content to slide by it some of your owne will not endure should be understood save * Occham Dial. p. 1. L. 1. c. 4. Intelligitur solum de Ecclesiâ—… qua fuit tempore Apostolorum of the Church in the time of the Apostles only and a Biel. lect 2â—… in C. Missâ—… A tempore Christi Apostolorum c. And so doth S. August take Eccles. Contra Fund some of the Church in Generall not excluding after-ages But sure to include Christ and his Apostles And the certainety is there abundance of certainety in it selfe but how farre that is evident to us shall after appeare But this will not serve your turne The Tradition of the present Church must bee as Infallible as that of the Primitive But the contrary to this is prooved * §. 16. Nu. 6. before because this Voyce of the present Church is not simply Divine To what end then serves any Tradition of the present Church To what Why to a very good end For first it serves by a full consent to worke upon the mindes of unbelievers to move them to reade and to consider the Scripture which they heare by so many Wise Learned and Devoute men is of no meaner esteeme then the Word of God And secondly It serves among Novices Weaklings and Doubters in the Faith to instruct and confirme them till they may acquaint themselves with and understand the Scripture which the Church delivers as the Word of God And thus againe some of your owne understand the fore-cited Place of S. Augustine I would not believe the Gospell c. * Sive Infâ—…les sive in Fide Novitii Can. Loc. L. 2. c 8. Neganti aut omnino nescientâ—… Scripturam Stapl. Relect. Cent. 4. q. 1. A 3. For he speakes it either of Novices or Doubters in the Faith or else of such as were in part Infidels You at the Conference though you omit it here would needs have it that S. Augustine spake even of the †Quid si fateamur Fideles etiam Ecclesiae Authoritate commoveri ut Scripturas recipiant Non tamen inde sequitur eos hoc modo penitus 〈◊〉 aut nullâ aliâ fortioreque ratione induci Quis autem Christianus est quem Ecclesia Christi commâ—…dans Scripturam Christi non commoveat Whitaker Disp. de sacrâ Scripturá Contro 1. q 3. c. 8. vbt 〈◊〉 locum hunc S. Aug. faithfull which I cannot yet thinke For he speakes to the Manichees and they had a great part of the Infidell in them And the words immediately before these are If thou shouldest finde one Qui Evangelio nondum credit which did not yet believe the Gospell what wouldest thou doe to make him believe a Et ibid. Quibus obtemperavi dicentibus Credite Evangelio Therefore he speakes of himselfe when he did not believe Ego verò non Truly I would not c. So to these two ends it serves and there need be no Question between us But then every thing that is the first Inducer to believe is not by and by either the Principall Motive or the chiefe and last Object of Beliefe upon which a man may rest his Faith Vnlesse we shall be of b Certum est quod tenemur credere omnibus contentis in Sacro Canone quia Ecclesia credit ex caratione soluÌ„ Ergo per prius magis tenemur Credere Ecclesiae quam Evangelio Almain in 3. Dist. 24 Conclus 6. Dub. 6. And to make a shew of proof for this he falsifies S Aug. most notoâ—…ously and reads that known place not Nisi me commoveret as all read it but compelleret Patet quia dicit Augustinus Evangelio non CredereÌ„ nisi aa hoc me compelleret Ecclesiae Au. horitas Ibid. And so also Gerson 〈◊〉 In Declarat veritatum quae credendae sunt c. part 1 p. 414. §. 3. But in a most ancient Manuscript in Corp. Ch. Colledge Library in Cambridge the words are Nisi me commoveret c. Lacobus Almain's Opinion That we are per prius magis first and more bound to believe the Church then the Gospell Which your own Learned men as you may see by c Canus L. 2. de Locis c. 8. fo 34. b. §. 16. Num. 6. Mel. Canus reject as Extreame foule and so indeed it is The first knowledge then after the Quid Nominis is knowne by Grammer that helpes to open a mans understanding and prepares him to bee able to Demonstrate a Truth and make it evident is his Logicke But when he hath made a Demonstration he resolves the knowledge of his Conclusion not into his Grammaticall or Logicall Principles but into the Immediate Principles out of which it is deduced So in this Particular a man is probably led by the Authority of the present Church as by the first informing induceing perswading Meanes to believe the Scripture to be the Word of God but when he hath studied considered and compared this Word with it selfe and with other Writings with the helpe of Ordinary Grace and a minde morally induced and reasonably perswaded by the Voyce of the Church the Scripture then gives greater and higher reasons of Credibility to it selfe then Tradition alone could give And then he that Believes resolves his last and full Assent That Scripture is of
the satisfaction of all men Christianly disposed Whereas had I desired only to rid my hands of these Captious Iesuites for certainly this Question was Captiously asked it had beene sufficient to have restored the Question thus How doe you know the Testimony of the Church by which you say you know Scripture to be the Word of God to be Divine and Infallible If they proove it by Scripture A. C. p. 53. Et vid. §. 16. N. 28. as all of them doe and as A. C. doth how doe they know that Scripture to be Scripture It is but a Circular Assurance of theirs by which they found the Churches Infallibility upon the Testimonie of the Scripture And the Scriptures Infallibility upon the Testimony of the Church That is upon the Matter the Churches Infallibility upon the Churches Infallibility But I labour for edification not for destruction And now by what I have here said I will weigh my Answer and his Exception taken against it F. The Bishop said That the Books of Scripture are Principles to be Supposed and needed not to be Proved B. Why but did I say That this Principle The § 17 Books of Scripture are the Word of God is to be supposed as needing no Proof at al to a Naturall man Or to a man newly entring upon the Faith yea or perhaps to a Doubter or Weakling in the Faith Can you think me so weake It seemes you doe But sure I know there is a great deale of difference betweene Ethnicks that deny and deride the Scripture and men that are Born in the Church The first have a farther way about to this Principle The other in their very Christian Education sucke it in and are taught so soone as they are apt to learne it That the Books commonly called The Bible or Scripture are the Word of God And I dealt with you †Dixi sicut â—…i congruâ—… ad quâ—…â—…bam c. S Aug. l. 1. Retract c. 13. as with a Christian though in Errour while you call Catholike The Words before spoken by me were That the Scripture onely not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of Faith The Question betweene us and you is Whether the Scripture do containe all necessary things of Faith Now in this Question as in all Nature and Art the Subject the Scripture is and must be a Nor is it such a strange thing to heare that Scripture is such 〈◊〉 supposeâ—…d Principle among Chriâ—…ians Quod à Scriptura evidenter deduâ—…itur est evidenter verum suppositis Scripturis Bellarm. L. 4. de Eccl. Milit. c. 3. §. 3. supposed The Quaere between the Romane-Catholikes and the Church of England being onely of the Praedicate the thing uttered of it Namely whether it containe all Fundamentals of Faith all Necessaries for Salvation within it Now since thâ—… Question proposed in very forme of Art proves not but b De Subjecto enim quaeritur semper non Subjectiâ—…n ipsum supposes the Subject I thinke I gave a satisfying Answer That to you and me and in this Question Scripture was a Supposed Principle and needed no Proofe And I must tell you that in this Question of the Scriptures perfect Continent it is against all Art yea and Equity too in Reasoning to call for a Proofe of That here which must go unavoydably supposed in this Question And if any man will be so familiar with Impiety to Question it it must be tryed in a preceding Question and Dispute by it self Yet here not you onely but c L. 4. de verb. Dei c. 4. §. Quarâ—…ò necesse est 〈◊〉 the lesuite here apud A. C. p. 49. Bellarmine and others run quite out of the way to snatch at Advantage F. Against this I read what I had formerly written in my Reply against M. Iohn White Wherein I plainely shewed that this Answer was not good and that no other Answer could be made but by admitting some Word of God unwritten to assure us of this Point B. Indeed here you read out of a Booke which § 18 you called your owne a large Discourse upon this Argument But surely I so untied the knot of the Argument that I set you to your Book againe For your selfe confesse that against this you read what you had formerly written Well! what ere you read there certaine it is you do a great deale of wrong to M. Hooker a L. 3 §. 8. and my selfe that because we call it a Supposed or Presumed Principle among Christians you should fall by and by into such a b Whereas Bellarm. sayes expresly that in the Controversies betweene you and us Non agitur de Metaphysicis subtilitatibus quae sinc periculo ignorari interdum cum laude oppugnari possunt c. Bellarm. Praefat. Operibus praefix §. 3. Metaphysicall Discourse to prove That that which is a c His omnibus Questionibut praemittenda est Controversia de Verbo Dei Neque enim disputari potest nisi priùs in aliquo Communi Principio cum Adversariis conveniamus Convenit autem inter nos omues omninò Haereticos Verbum Dei esse Regulam fidei ex quâ de Dogmatibus judicandum sit esse Commune Principium ab omnibus concessum unde Argumenta ducantur c. Bellarm. Praefat. Operib prafix §. ult And if it be Commune Principium ab omnibus concessum then I hope it must be taken as a thing supposed or as a Praecognitum in this Dispute betweene us Praecognitum fore-knowne in Science must be of such light that it must be knowne of and by it selfe alone and that the Scripture cannot be so knowne to be the Word of God I will not now enter againe into that Discourse having said enough already how farre the Beame which is very glorious especially in some parts of Scripture gives light to prove it selfe You see neither Hooker nor I nor the Church of England for ought I know leave the Scripture alone to manifest it selfe by the light which it hath in it selfe No but when the present Church hath prepared and led the way like a preparing Morning-Light to Sun-shine then indeed we settle for our Direction but not upon the first opening of the morning Light but upon the Sun it selfe Nor will I make needlesse enquiry how farre and in what manner a Praecognitum or Supposed Principle in any Science may be proved in a Higher to which that is subordinate or accepted in a Prime Nor how it may in Divinity where Prae as well as Post-cognita things fore as well as after-knowne are matters and under the manner of Faith and not of Science strictly Nor whether a Praecognitum a presupposed Principle in Faith which rests upon Divine Authority must needs have as much and equall Light to Naturall Reason as Prime Principles have in Nature while they rest upon Reason Nor whether it may justly bee denied to have sufficient Light because not equall Your owne Schoole †Colligitur apertà ex
that give just Cause to continue a Separation But for free-hearings or safe Conducts I have said enough till that Church doe not only say bnt doe otherwise And as for Truth and Peace they are in every mans mouth with you and with us But lay they but halfe so close to the hearts of men as they are common on their tongues it would soone be better with Christendome then at this day it is or is like to be And for the Protestants in generall I hope they seeke both Truth and Peace sincerely The Church of England I am sure doth and hath taught me to †Beseeching God to inspire continually the Vniversall Church with the Spirit of truth unity and concord c. In the Prayer for the Militant Church And in the third Collect on Good-friday pray for both as I most heartily doe But what Rome doth in this if the world will not see I will not Censure And for that which A. C. addes That such a free hearing is more then ever the English Catholikes could obtaine A. C. p. 57. though they have often offered and desired it and that but under the Princes word And that no Answer hath nor no good Answer can be given And he cites Campian for it How farre or how often this hath beene asked by the English Rommists I cannot tell nor what Answer hath beene given them But surely Campian was too bold and so is A. C. too to say * Campian praefat Rationsbut praefixà Honestum responsum nullum no good Answer can be given For this I thinke is a very good Answer That the Kings and the Church of England had no Reason to admit of a Publike Dispute with the English Romish Clergie till they shall be able to shew it under the Seale or Powers of Rome That that Church will submit to a Third who may be an Indifferent Iudge betweene us and them or to such a Generall Councell as is after * §. 26. Nu. 1. mentioned And this is an Honest and I thinke a full Answer And without this all Disputation must end in Clamour And therefore the more publike the worse Because as the Clamour is the greater so perhaps will be the Schisme too F. Moreover he said he would ingenuously acknowledge That the Corruption of Manners in the Romish Church was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departing from it B. I would I could say you did as ingenuously repeat § 22 as I did Confesse For I never said That Corruption of Manners was or was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departure How could I say this since I did not grant that they did Depart otherwise then is * §. 21. N. 6. before expressed There is difference between Departure and causelâ—…sse Thrusting from you For out of the Church is not in your Power God bee thanked to thrust us Think on that And so much I said expresly then That which I did ingenuously confesse was this That Corruption in Manners only is no sufficient Cause to make a Separation in the Church a Modò ea qùae ad CathedraÌ„ pertinent recta praecipiant S. Hier. Ep. 236. Nor is it It is a Truth agreed on by the Fathers and received by Divines of all sorts save by the Cathari to whom the Donatist and the Anabaptist after accorded And against whom b L. 4. Instit. c. 1. §. 13. c. Ep. 48. A malis piscibus corde semper moribus seâ—…arantur c. Corporalem separationem in â—…tore maris hoc est in fine saculi expectant Calvin disputes it strongly And S. Augustine is plaine There are bad fish in the Net of the Lord from which there must be ever a Separation in heart and in manners but a corporali 〈◊〉 must be expected at the Sea shore that is the end of the world And the best fish that are must not teare and breake the Net because the bad are with them And this is as ingenuously Confessed for you as by me For if Corruption in Manners were a just Cause of Actuall Separation of one Church from another in that Catholike Body of Christ the Church of Rome hath given as great cause as any since as * Uix ullum peccatum solâ—… Haeresi exceptá câ—…gitari potest quo illa Sedes â—…urpiter maculata non fucrit maxime ab An 8â—…0 Relect Cont. 1. q. 5. Art 3. Stapleton grants there is scarce any sinne that can be thought by man Heresie only excepted with which that Sea hath not been fouly stained especially from eight hundred yeares after Christ. And he need not except Haeresie into which a Biel in Can. Miss Lect. 23. Biel grants it possible the Bishops of that Sea may fall And †Stel. in S. Luc. c 22 Almain in 3. Sent. d. 24. q. 1 fine Multae sunt Decretales haereticae c. And so they erred as Popes Stella and Almaine gâ—…ant it freely that some of them did fall and so ceased to be Heads of the Church and left Christ God be thanked at that time of his Vicars defection to looke to his Cure himselfe F. But saith he beside Corruption of Manners there were also Errors in Doctrine B. This I spake indeed And can you prove that § 23 I spake not true in this But I added though here againe you are pleased to omit it That some of the errors of the Roman Church were dangerous to salvation For it is not every light Eâ—…ror in Disputable Doctrine and Points of curious Speculation that can bee a just Cause of Separation in that Admirable Body of Christ which is his * Eph. 1. 23. Church or of one Member of it from another For hee gave his Naturall Body to bee rent and torne upon the Crosse that his Mysticall Body might be One. And S. †S. Aug. Ep. 50. Et iterum Colum ba non sunt qui EcclesiaÌ„ dissipant Accipitres sunt Milvi sunt Non laniat Columba c. S. Aug. tract 5. in S. Iohn Augustine inferres upon it That â—…e is no way partaker of Divine Charity that is an enemie to this Vnity Now what Errors in Doctrine may give just Cause of Separation in this Body or the Parts of it one from another were it never so easie to determine as I thinke it is most difficult I would not venture to set it downe in particular least in these times of Discord I might bee thought to open a Doore for Schisme which surely I will never doe unlesse it be to let it out But that there are Errors in Doctrine and some of them such as most manifestly endanger salvation in the Church of Rome is evident to them that will not shut their Eyes The proofe whereof runnes through the Particular Points that are betweene us and so is too long for this Discourse Now here A. C. would faine have a Reason given him Why I did endeavour A. C. p. 55. to shew what Cause
Councell which shall be lawfully called and fairely and freely held with indifferency to all parties And that must judge the Difference according to Scripture which must be their Rule as well as Private Mens And here after some lowd Cry against the Pride and Insolent madnesse of the Protâ—…stants A. C. addes That A. C. p. 58. the Church of Rome is the Principall and Mother Church And that therefore though it be against common equity that Subjects and Children should be Accusers Witnesses Iudges and Executioners against their Prince and Mother in any case yet it is not absurd that in some Cases the Prince or Mother may Accuse Witnesse Iudge and if need be execute Iustice against unjust and rebellious Subjects or evill Children How farre forth Rome is a Prince over the whole Church or a Mother of it will come to be shewed at after In the meane time though I cannot grant her to be either yet let 's suppose her to be both that A. C s. Argument may have all the strength it can have Nor shall it force me as plausible as it seemes to weaken the just power of Princes over their Subjects or of Mothers over their Children to avoid the shocke of this Argument For though A. C. may tell us 't is not absurd in some Cases yet I would faine have him name any one Moderate Prince that ever thought it just or tooke it upon him to be Accuser and VVitnesse and Iudge in any Cause of moment against his Subjects but that the Law had Libertie to Iudge betweene them For the great Philosopher tells us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arist. Eto c. 6. That the Chiefe Magistrate is Custos juris the Guardian and keeper of the Law and if of the Law then both of that equity and equality which is due unto them that are under him And even Tiberius himselfe in the Cause of Silanus when Dolabella would have flatter'd him into more power then in wisdome he thought fit then to take to himselfe he put him off thus No †Minui Jura quoties gliscat Potestas nec utendum Imperio ubi Legibus agi possit Tacit. L. 3 Annal. the Lawes grow lesse where such Power enlarges Nor is absolute Power to be used where there may be an orderly proceeding by Law And for * Heb. 12. 9. Parents 't is true when Children are young they may chastise them without other Accuser or VVitnesse then themselves and yet the children are to give them reverence And 't is presumed that naturall affection will prevaile so far with them that they will not punish them too much For all experience tells us almost to the losse of Education that they * God used Samuel as a Messenger against Eli for his overmuch indulgence to his sonnes 1 Sam. 3. 13. And yet Samuel himselfe committed the very same fault concerning his own sonnes 1 Sam. 8. 3. 5. And this Indulgence occasioned the Change of the Civill government as the former was the losse of the Priesthood punish them too little even when there is cause Yet when Children are growne up and come to some full use of their owne Reason the Apostles Rule is †Coloss. 3. 21. Colos. 3. Parents provoke not your Children And if the Apostle prevaile not with froward Parents there 's a Magistrate and a Law to relieve even a sonne against a Crimini ci Tribunus inter eatera dabat quod filium juvenem nullius probri compertum extorrem urbe domo penatibus foro luce congressu aequalium prohibituÌ„ in opus servile propè in carcerem atque in ergastulum dederit Liv. dec 1. l. 7. unnaturall Parents as it was in the Case of T. Manlius against his over Imperious Father And an expresse Law there was among the Iewes Deut. 21. when Children Deut. 21. 19. were growne up and fell into great extremities that the Parents should then bring them to the Magistrate and not be too busie in such cases with their own Power So suppose Rome be a Prince yet her Subjects must be tryed by Gods Law the Scripture And suppose her a Mother yet there is or ought to be Remedy against her for her Children that are growne up if she forget all good Nature and turne Stepdame to them Well the Reason why the Iesuite asked the Question Quo Iudice Who should be Iudge He sayes was this Because there 's no equity in it that the Protestants should be Iudges in their owne Cause But now upon more Deliberation A. C. tells us as if he A. C. p. 57. knew the Iesuites minde as well as himselfe as sure I thinke he doth That the Iesuite directed this Question chiefly against that speech of mine That there were Errors in Doctrine of Faith and that in the Generall Church as the Iesuite understood my meaning The Iesuite here tooke my meaning right For I confesse I said there were Errours in Doctrine and dangerous ones too in the Church of Rome I said likewise that when the Generall Church could not or would not Reforme such it was Lawfull for Particular Churches to Refâ—…rme themselves But then I added That the Generall Church not universally taken but in these Westerne parts fell into those Errours being swayed in these latter Ages by the predominant Power of the Church of Rome under whose Government it was for the most part forced And all men of understanding know how oft and how easily an Over-potent Member carries the whole with it in any Body Naturall Politick or Ecclesiasticall Yea but A. C. telles us That never any Competent Iudge did so censure the Church And indeed that no Power A. G. p. 57. on Earth or in Hell it selfe can so farre prevaile against the Generall Church as to make it Erre generally in any one Point of Divine Truth and much lesse to teach any thing by its full Authority to be a Matter of Faith which is contrary to Divine Truth expressed or involved in Scriptures rightly understood And that therefore no Reformation of Faith can be needfull in the Generall Church but only in Particular Churches And for proofe of this he cites S. Mat. 16. and 28. S. Luk. 22. S. Iohn 14. and 16. In this trouâ—…lesome and quarrelling Age I am most unwilling to meddle with the Erring of the Church in generall The Church of England is content to passe that over And though * Art 19. She tels us That the Church of Rome hath Erred even in matters of Faith yet of the Erring of the Church in generall She is modestly silent But since A. C. will needs have it That the whole Church did never generally Erre in any one Point of Faith he should doe well to Distinguish before he be so peremptory For if he mean no more then that the whole Vniversal Church of Christ cannot universally Erre in any one Point of Faith simply necessary to altmens salvation he fights against no Adversary that I know
Puente La Convenientia de las dâ—…s Monarquias Catolicas la de la Iglesia Romana y la del Imperiâ—… Espaniol y 〈◊〉 de la prâ—…dentia de los Reyes Catolicos de Espania a tâ—…dos los Reyes dâ—…l mundâ—… a Spanish Friar followes the same resemblance betweene the Monarchies of Rome and Spaine in a Tract of his intitled The Agreement of the two Catholike Monarchies and Printed in Spanish in Madrid Anno 1612. In the Frontispice or Title Page of this Booke there are set out two Scutchions The one bearing the Crosse-Keyes of Rome The other the Armes of Castile and Leon both joyned together with this Motto In vinculo pacis in the bond of peace On the one side of this there is a Portraiture resembling Rome with the Sunne shining over it and darting his beames on S. Peters Keyes with this Inscription * Luminare Majus ut prâ—…sit Vrbiâ—… Orbi Luminare Majus the greater Light that it may governe the City that is Rome and the whole world And on the other side there 's another Image designing Spaine with the Moone shining over that and spreading forth its Raies upon the Spanish Scutchion with this Impresse †Luminare Minus ut subdatur Vrbi dominetur Orbi Luminare minus the lesse Light that it may be subject to the City of Rome he meanes and so be Lord to governe the whole world besides And over all this in the top of the Title-Page there is Printed in Capitall Letters Fecit Deus duo Luminaria magna God made two great Lights There followes after in this Author a Discovery at large of this Blazoning of these Armes but this is the Substance of it and abundantly enough to shew what is aimed at by whom and for whom And this Booke was not stollen out without the will and consent of the State For it hath Printed before it all manner of Licence that a Booke can well have For it hath the approbation of Father Pedro de Buyza of the Company of the lesuites Of Iohn de Arcediano Provinciall of the Dominicans Of Diego Granero the Licencer appointed for the supreme Councell of the Inquisition And some of these revised this booke by a Por Orden de los Seniores del Conseso Supremo Order from the Lords of that Councell And last of all the b Por Mandade del Rey nucstro Senior Kings Priviledge is to it with high Commendation of the Worke. But the Spanyards had need looke to it for all this least the French deceive them For now lately Friar Campanella hath set out an Eclogue upon the Birth of the Dolphin and that Permissu Superiorum by Licence from his Superiors In which he sayes expresly c Quum Gallia alat 20000000 hominum Ex singulis centenis sumendo unum colligit 200000. strenuorum militum stipendiatorum commodè perpetuoque Propterea omnes terrae Principes metuunt nunc magis à Gallia quà m unquam ab aliis Paratur enim illi Regnum Vniversale F. Tho. Campanellae Ecloga in Principis Galliarum Delphini Nativitatem cum Annot. Discip. Parisiis 1639. cum permissu Superiorum That all the Princes are now more afraid of France then ever for that there is provided for it Regnum Vniversale The Vniversall Kingdome or Monarchy But t is time to Returne For A. C. in this passage hath beene very Carefull to tell us of a Parliament A. C. p. 60. and of Living Magistrates and Iudges besides the Law-Bookes Thirdly therefore the Church of England God be thanked thrives happily under a Gracious Prince and well understands that a Parliament cannot be called at all times And that there are visible Iudges besides the Law-Bookes and One Supreme long may he be and be happy to settle all Temporall differences which certainly he might much better performe if his Kingdomes were well rid of A. C. and his fellowes And she believes too That our Saviour Christ hath left in his Church besides his Law-booke the Scripture Visible Magistrates and Iudges that is Archbishops and Bishops under a gracious King to governe both for Truth and Peace according to the Scripture and her owne Canons and Constitutions as also those of the Catholike Church which crosse not the Scripture and the Iust Laws of the Realme * Non est necesse ut sub Christo sit Unus Rector totius Ecclesiâ—… sed sussicit quòd sint plures regentes diversas provincias sicut sunt plures Reges gubernantes plura regna Ocham Dial. L. 2. Tract x. p. 1. c. 30. ad 1. But she doth not believe there is any Necessity to have one Pope or Bishop over the Whole Christian world more then to have one Emperor over the whole World Which were it possible She cannot thinke fit Nor are any of these intermediate Iudges or that One which you would have Supreme Infallible But since a Kingdome and a Parliament please A. C. so well to patterne the Church by I 'le follow him in the A. C. p. 60. way he goes and be bold to put him in minde that in some Kingdomes there are divers Businesses of greatest Consequence which cannot be finally and bindingly ordered but in and by Parliament And particularly the Statute Lawes which must bind all the Subjects cannot be made and ratified but there Therefore according to A. Cs. owne Argument there will be some Businesses also found Is not the setling of the Divisions of Christendome one of them which can never be well setled but in a †Propter defectum Conciliorum Generalium totius Ecclesiâ—… qua sola audet intrepidè corrigere omnes ea mala qua Vniversalem tangunt Ecclesiam manentia diu incorrecta crescunt c. Gerson Declar at Defectuum Uirâ—… 〈◊〉 To. 1. p. 209. Generall Councell And particularly the making of Canons which must binde all Particular Christians and Churches cannot be concluded and established but there And againe as the Supreme Magistrate in the State Civill may not abrogate the Lawes made in Parliament though he may Dispense with the Sanction or penalty of the Law quoad hic nunc as the Lawyers speake So in the Ecclesiasticall Body no Bishop no not the Pope where his Supremacie is admitted hath power to * Sunt enim Indissolubilia Decreta quibus reverentia debita est Prosper cont Collatorem c. 1. And Turrecremata who saies every thing that may be said for the Popes Supremacy yet dares not say Papam posse revocare tollere omnia Statuta Generalium Conciliorum sed Aliqua tantum Io. de Turrecre Summa de Ecclesiâ L. 3. c. 55. Et postea Papa non potest revocare Decreta primorum quatuor Conciliorum quia non sunt nisi Declarativa Articulorum Fidei Ibid. c. 57. ad 2 um disanull or violate the true and Fundamentall Decrees of a Generall Councell though he may perhaps dispense in some Cases with some Decrees By all which it
Reformation or a free Councell And the * Leo 10. Bull. Inn. 8. 1520. Pope himselfe to shew his Charity had declared and pronounced the Appellants Hereticks before they were Condemned by the Councell I hope an Assembly of Enemies are no Lawfull Councell and I thinke the Decrees of such a one are omni jure nulla and carry their Nullity with them through all Law Againe is that Councell Generall that hath none of the Easterne Churches Consent nor presence there Are all the Greekes so become Non Ecclesia no Church that they have no Interest in Generall Councels Iâ—… numbers indeed among the Subscribers sixe Greekes They might be so by Nation or by Title purposely given them but dare you say they were actually Bishops of and sent from the Greeke Church to the Councell Or is it to be accounted a Generall Councell that in many Sessions had scarce Ten Archbishops or Forty or Fifty Bishops present And for the West of Christendome nearer home it reckons one English S. Assaph But Cardinall Poole was there too And Fnglish indeed he was by birth but not sent to that Councell by the King and Church of England but as one of the †Concil Trid. Sess. 5. Popes Legates And so we finde him in the fift Session of that Councell but neither before nor after And at the beginning of the Councell he was not Bishop in the Church of England and after he was Archbishop of Canterburie he never went over to the Councell And can you prove that S. Assaph went thither by Authority There were but few of other Nations and it may be some of them reckoned with no more truth then the Greekes In all the Sessions under Paul the third but two French-men and sometimes none as in the sixt under Iulius the third when Henr. 2. of France protested against that Councell And in the end it is well known how all the French which were then a good part held off till the Cardinall of Loraigne was got to Rome As for the Spaniards they laboured for many things upon good Grounds and were most unworthily over-borne To all this A. C. hath nothing to say but That it is not Necessary to the Lawfulnesse and Generalnesse of a A. C. p. 61. Councell that all Bishops of the World should be actually present subscribe or consent but that such Promulgation be made as is morally sufficient to give notice that such a Councell is called and that all may come if they will and that a Major part at least of those that are present give assent to the Decrees I will forget that it was but p. 59. in which A. C. p. 59. A. C. speakes of all Pastours and those not onely summoned but gathered together And I will easily grant him that 't is not necessary that all Bishops in the Christian world be present and subscribe But sure 't is necessary to the Generalnesse of a Councell that some be †Ut aliqui mittantur advcniant conveniant c. Bellar L. 1. de Concil c. 17. §. Quarta ut saltem there and authorized for all Particular Churches And to the freedome of a Councell that all that come may come safe And to the Lawfulnesse of a Councell that all may come uningaged and not fastened to a fide before they sit downe to argue or deliberate Nor is such a Promulgation as A. C. mentions sufficient but onely in Case of Contumacy and that where they which are called and refuse to come have no just Cause for their not comming as too many had in the Case of Trent And were such a Promulgation sufficient for the Generalnesse of a Councell yet for the Freedome and the Lawfulnesse of it it were not F. So said I would Arrians say of the Councell of Nice The B. would not admit the Case to be like B. So indeed you said And not you alone It is § 28 the Common Objection made against all that admit not every latter Councell as fully as that Councell of Nice famous through all the Christian world In the meane time nor you nor they consider that the Case is not alike as I then told you If the Case be alike in all why doe not you admit that which was held at Ariminum and the second of Ephesus as well as Nice If you say as yours doe It was because the Pope approved them not That 's a true Cause but not Adequate or full For it was because the Whole Church refused them * §. 26. N. 1. with whom the Romane Prelate standing then entire in the Faith agreed and so for his Patriarchate refused those Councels But suppose it 〈◊〉 that these Syâ—…s were not admitted because the Pope refused them yet this ground is gamed That the Câ—…e is not alike for mens Assent to all Councells And if you looke to have this granted That the Pope must coâ—…me or the Councel's not lawfull we have farre more reason to looke that this be not denied Thâ—…t Scripture must not be departed from in a Here A. C. tels us that the 〈◊〉 thought so of the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Namely that they departed from 〈◊〉 and Sense of Scripture They said to â—…deed But the Testimony of the whole Clutch both then and sinâ—… went wâ—… the Councell against the Arrian So is it not â—…ere against the Protestant â—…or I râ—…t For they offer to be tâ—…ed by that very Councell of Nice and all the 〈◊〉 Councells and Fathers of the Châ—… within the first foure hundred yeares and somewhat farther letter or necessary sense or the Councell is not lawfull For the Consent and Confirmation of Scripture is of farre greater Authority to make the Councell Authenticall and the Decisions of it de fide then any Confirmation of the Pope can bee Now of these two the Councell of Nâ—…e we are sure had the first the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 and you say it had the second the 〈◊〉 Confirmation The Councell of Trent we are able to prove had not the first and so we have no reason to respect the second And to what end do your Learâ—… Men maintaine that a Councell may make a Conclusion de sâ—…e though it be simply b So Staplâ—… often but the Fathers quite otherwise 〈◊〉 extra Evangeliâ—…m sâ—…nt 〈◊〉 sâ—…am Hâ—… L. 2. 〈◊〉 Câ—… extra out of aâ—…l â—…nd oâ—… Scrâ—…ure but out of a Iealousie at least that this of Trent and some others have in their Determinâ—…s left both â—…ter and Sense of Scripture Shew this against the Councell of Nice and I will grant so much of the Case to be like But what will you say if c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 L. 2. 〈◊〉 Syâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Niâ—…linum Constâ—… required That 〈◊〉 thus brought into Question 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 by Testimony out of Scripture And the 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 Councell never refused that â—…e And what will you say if they professe they depart not from it 〈◊〉
and weighed as well as that which they say against it yet with c Non est inferiorum judicare an Superiores legitimè procedant necne nisi manifestiss imè constet intolerabilem Errorem committâ—… Bellar. L. 2. de Concil c 8. §. Alii dicunt Concilium Nisi manifestè constet Iacob Almaln in 3. sent D. 24. q. unicâ fine Bellarmines Exception still so the errour be not manifestly intolerable Nor is it fit for Private men in such great Cases as this upon which the whole peace of Christendome depends to argue thus The Error appeares Therefore the Determination of the Councell is ipso jure invalid But this is farre the safer way I say still when the Errour is neither Fundamentall nor in it selfe manifest to argue thus The Determination is by equall Authority and that secundùm jus according to Law declared to be invalid Therefore the Errour appeares And it is a more humble and conscientious way for any private man to suffer a Councell to goe before him then for him to out-runne the Councell But weake and Ignorant mens outrunning both God and his Church is as bold a fault now on all sides as the daring of the Times hath made it Common As for that which I have added concerning the Possibility of a Generall Councells erring I shall goe on with it without asking any farther leave of A. C. For upon this Occasion I shall not hold it § 33 amisse a little more at large to Consider the Poynt of Generall Councels How they may or may not erre And a little to looke into the Romane and Protestant Opinion concerning them which is more agreeable to the Power and Rule which Christ hath left in his Church and which is most preservative of Peace established or ablest to reduce perfect unity into the Church of Christ when that poore Ship hath her ribs dashed in sunder by the waves of Contention And this I will adventure to the World but only in the Nature of a Consideration and with submission to my Mother the Church of England and the Mother of us all the Universall Catholike Church of Christ As I doe most humbly All whatsoever else is herein contained First then I Consider whether all the Power Consid. 1. that an Oecumenicall Councell hath to Determine and all the Assistance it hath not to erre in that Determination it hath it not all from the a Si Ecclesiae Vniversitati non est data ulla Authoritas Ergo neque Concilio Generali quatenâ—… Ecclesiam Universalem repraesentat Bellar. L. 2. de Concil c. 16. §. Quòd si Ecclesia Catholike Universall Body of the Church and Clergie in the Church whose b Concilium Generale Ecclesiam reprasentans Ia. Almain in 3. Sent D. 24. Qâ—…unicâ Episcopi sunt Ecclesia reprasentativè ut nostri loquuntur Bellar. L. 3. de Eccl. Milit. c. 14. §. 3. Representative it is And it seemes it hath For the Government of the Church being not c §. 26. Nu. 8. Monarchicall but as Christ is Head this Principle is inviolable in Nature Every Body Collective that represents receives power priviledges from the Body which is represented els a Representation might have force without the thing it represents which cannot be So there is no Power in the Councell no Assistance to it but what is in and to the Church But yet then it may be Questioned whether the Representing Body hath d Omnis repraesentatio virtute minor est Reipsâ vel Veritate cujus Reprasentatio est Colligigitur apertè ex Tho. 1. 2. q. 101. A. 2. ad 2. all the Power Strength and Priviledge which the Represented hath And suppose it hath all the Legall Power yet it hath not all the Naturall either of strength or wisdome that the whole hath Now because the Representative hath power from the Whole and the Maine Body can meet no other way therefore the Acts Lawes and Decrees of the Representative be it Ecclesiasticall or Civill are Binding in their Strength But they are not so certaine and free from Errour as is that Wisdome which resides in the Whole For in Assemblies meerely Civill or Ecclesiasticall all the able and sufficient men cannot be in the Body that Represents And it is as possible so many able e Posset enim contingere quòd Congregati in Concilio Generali essent pauci viles tam in re quà m in hominum reputatione respectu illorum qui ad illud Concilium Generale minime convenissent c. Ockam Dial par 3. lib. 3. c. 13. and sufficient men for some particular businesse may be left out as that they which are in may misse or mis apply that Reason and Ground upon which the Determination is principally to rest Here for want of a cleare view of this ground the Representative Body erres whereas the Represented by vertue of those Members which saw and knew the ground may hold the Principle inviolated Secondly I Consider That since it is thus in Nature Consid. 2. and in Civill Bodies if it be not so in Ecclesiasticall too some reason must be given why a Ecclesia est tinum Corpus mysticâ—…m per Similitudâ—…nem ad Naturale Durand 3. D. 14. Q. 2. N. 5. Biel. Lect. 23. in Can. Miss For that Body also consists of men Those men neither all equall in their perfections of Knowledge and Iudgement whether acquired by Industry or rooted in Nature or infused by God Not all equall nor any one of them perfect and absolute or freed from passion and humane infirmities Nor doth their meeting together make them Infallible in all things though the Act which is hammered out by many together must in reason be perfecter then that which is but the Child of one mans sufficiency If then a Generall Councell have no ground of Not erring from the Men or the Meeting either it must not be at all or it must be by some assistance and power upon them when they are so met together And this if it bee lesse then the Assistance of the Holy Ghost it cannot make them secure against Errour Thirdly I Consider That the Assistance of the Consid. 3. Holy Ghost is without Errour That 's no Question and as little there is That a Councell hath it But the Doubt that troubles is Whether all assistance of the Holy Ghost be afforded in such a High manner as to cause all the Definitions of a Councell in matters Fundamentall in the Faith and in remote Deductions from it to be alike infallible Now the Romanists to prove there is b Omnem veritatem infallibiliter docendi c. Stapl. Relect. Praf ad Lectorem infallible assistance produce some places of Scripture but no one of them inferres much lesse enforces an infallibility The Places which Stapleton there rests upon are these c S. Ioh. 16. 13. I will send you the Spirit of Truth which will lead you into all Truth And d
est data ulla Authoritas ergo nec Concilio Generali quatenus Ecclesiam Vniversalem repraesentat Bellar. L. 2. de Concil c. 16. §. Quod si Ecclesiae with Mandate to determine The Places of Scripture with Expositions of the Fathers upon them make me apt to believe this S. Peter saith S. Augustine c Petrus personam Ecclesiae Catholicae sustinet huic datae sunt claves quùm Petro datae De Agon Chr. c. 30. did not receive the Keyes of the Church but as sustaining the Person of the Church Now for this Particular suppose the Key of Doctrine be to let in Truth and shut out Error and suppose the Key rightly used infallible in this yet this Infallibility is primely in the Church in whose person not strictly in his owne S. Peter received the Keyes But here Stapleton layes crosse my way againe and would thrust me out of this Consideration He * Rel. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 5. Sed propter Primatum quem gerebat Ecclesiae ideoque etsi finalitèr Ecclesia accepit tamen formalitèr P â—…trus accepit grants that S. Peter received these Keyes indeed and in the Person of the Church but saith he that was because he was Primate of the Church And therefore the Church received the Keyes finally but S. Peter formally that is if I mistake him not S. Peter for himselfe and his Successors received the Keyes in his owne Right but to this end to benefit the Church of which he was made Pastor But I keepe in my Consideration still and I would have this considered whether it be ever read in any Classicke Author That to receive a thing in the Person of another or sustaining the Person of another is onely meant finally to receive it that is to his good and not in his Right I should thinke he that receives any thing in the Person of another receives it indeed to his good and to his use but in his right too And that the primary and formall right is not in the receiver but in him whose person he sustaines while he receives it A man purchases Land and takes possession of it by an Attourney I hope the †Non est idem possidere alieno Nomine possidere Nam possidet cujus nomine possidetur Procurator aliena rei praestat Ministerium L. Quod meo 18. in Princ. H. de acquir Possess Celsus Attourney being the hand to receive it Instrumentally and no more shall take nor Vse nor right from the Purchaser A Man marries a Wife by a * Quando Matrimonium fit per Procuratorem Procurator est tantùm Conditio sine quâ non Sanch. de matrim L. 〈◊〉 Dispat 11. q. 4. Nu. 28. p. 128. Proxy This is not unusuall among great Persons But I hope he that hath the Proxy and receives the woman with the Ceremonies of Mariage in the Others Name must also leave her to be the Others Wife who gave him power to receive her for him This stumbling-blocke then is nothing and in my Consideration it stands still That the Church in Generall by the hands of the Apostles and their Successors received the Keyes and all Power signified by them and by the assistance of Gods Spirit may be able to use them but still in and by the same hands and perhaps to open and shut in some things infallibly when the Pope and a Generall Councell too forgetting both her and her Rule the Scripture are to seek how to turne these Keyes in their wards The third Particular I Consider is Suppose in the whole Catholike Church Militant an absolute Infallibility in the Prime Foundations of Faith absolutely necessary to Salvation and that this Power of not erring so is not * Non omnia illa que tradit Ecclesia sub Desinitione judiciali i. in Concilio sunt de Necessitate Salutis credenda sed illa duntaxat quae sic tradit concurrente Universali totius Ecclesiae consensu implicitè vel explicitè verè vel interpretativè Gerson Tract de Declaratione veritatum quae credenda sunt c. §. 4. par 1. p. 414. communicable to a Generall Councell which represents it but that the Councell is subject to errour This supposition doth not onely preserve that w ch you desire in the Church an Infallibility but it †Possit tamen contingere quòd quamvis Generale Concilium definiret aliquid contra Fidem Ecclesia Dei non exponeretur periculo Quia possit contingere quòd congregati in Concilio Generali essent pauci viles tam in re quà m in hominum reputatione respectu illorum quâ—… ad illud Concilium Generale minimè convenissent Et tunc illorum levitèr Error exâ—…irparetur per multitndinem meliorum sapientiorum famosiorum illis Quibut etiam multitudo simplicium adhaereret magis c. Och. Dial. P. 3. l. 3. c. 13. meets w th all inconveniences w ch usually have done and daily do perplexe the Church And here is still a Remedy for all things For if Private respects if * Many of these were potent at Ariminum and Seleucia Bandies in a Faction if power and favour of some parties if weaknesse of them which have the mannaging if any unfit mixture of State Councels if any departure from the Rule of the Word of God if any thing else sway and wrench the Councell the Whole a Determinationibus quae à Concilio vel Pontisice Summo siunt super iis dubitationibus quae substantiam sidci concernunt necessariò â—…redendum est dum Vniversalis Ecclesia non reclamet Fr. Pic. Mirand Theor. 8. Church upon evidence found in expresse Scripture or demonstration of this miscariage hath power to represent her selfe in another Body or Councell and to take order for what was amisse either practised or concluded So here is a meanes without any infringing any lawfull Authority of the Church to preserve or reduce unity and yet grant as I did and as the b Artic. 21. Church of England doth That a Generall Councell may erre And this course the Church heretofore took for she did cal and represent her self in a new Councell and define against the Heretical Conclusions of the former as in the case at Ariminum and the second of Ephesus is evident and in other Councels named by †Bel. L. 2. de Concil c 16. §. Tertio Concililium sine Papâ Bellarmine Now the Church is never more cunningly abused then when men out of this Truth that she may erre infer this falshood that she is not to be Obeyed For it will never follow She may erre Therefore She may not Govern For he that sayes Obey them which have the Rule over you and submit your selves for they watch for your soules a Heb. 13. 17. Heb. 13. Commands Obedience and expresly ascribes Rule to the Church And this is not only a Pastorall Power to teach and direct but a Praetorian also to Controll and Censure too where Errors
Charity of the Church her selfe were mistaken in the Case of the Donatists as shall †§. 35. Nu. 3. after appeare Secondly even Mistaken Charity if such it were is farre better then none at all And if the Mistaken be ours the None is yours Yea but A. C. tells us That this denyall of Salvation A. C. p. 65. is grounded upon Charitie as were the like threats of Christ and the Holy Fathers For there is but one true Faith and one true Church and out of that there is no Salvation And he that will not heare the Church S. Matth. 18. let him bee as a Heathen and a Publicane Therefore he sayes 't is more Charity to fore-warne us of the danger by S. Matth. 18. 17. these threats then to let us run into it thorough a false security 'T is true that there is but one true Faith and but one true Church But that one both Faith and Church is the a And this is prooved by the Creed â—…n which we professe our Beliefe of the Catholike not of the Roman Church Catholike Christian not the Particular Romane And this Catholike Christian Church he that will not both heare and obey yea and the Particular Church in which hee lives too so farre as it in necessaries agrees with the Vniversall is in as bad condition as a Heathen and a Publicane and perhaps in some respects worse And were we in this Case we should thanke A. C. for giving us warning of our danger But 't is not so For he thunders out all these threats and denyall of salvation because we joyne not with the Romane Church in all things as if her Corruptions were part of the Catholike Faith of Christ. So the whole passage is a meere begging of the Question and then threatning upon it without all ground of Reason or Charity In the meane time let A. C. looke to himselfe that in his false security hee run not into the danger and losse of his owne salvation while hee would seeme to take such care of ours But though this Argument prevailes with the weake yet it is much stronger in the cunning then the true force of it For all Arguments are very mooving that lay their ground upon b This is a free Confession of the Adversaries Argument against themselves and therefore is of force A. C. p. 64. But every Confession of Adversaries or others is to be taken with its Qualities and Conditions If you leave out or change these you wrong the Confession and then 't is of no force And â—…so doth A. C. here And though Bell. rm makes the Confession of the Adversaâ—…y a note of the true Church L. 4. de Notâ—…s Ecâ—…l c. 16. yet in the very beginning whâ—… layes his Ground 〈◊〉 1. he layes it 〈◊〉 plaine fallacie à secunaùm quid ad simpliciter the Adversaries Confession especially if it be confessed and avouched to be true But if you would speak truly and say Many Protestants indeed confesse there is salvation possible to be attained in the Romane Church but that yet they say withall that the Errors of that Church are so many * For they are no meane Differences that are betweene us by Bellarmines owne Confession Agendum est non de rebus levibus sed de gravissimis Quastionibut quae ad ipsa Fidei fundament a pertinent c. Bellarm. in praefat Operibus praefixá §. 3. And therefore the Errours in them and the Corruptions of them cannot bee of small Consequence by your owne Confession Yeâ—… by your owne indeed For you A. C. say full as much if not more then Bellarmine Thus We Catholikes hold all points in which Protestants differ from us in Doctrine of Faith to be Fundamentall and necessary to bee Believed or at least not denyed A. C. Relation of the first Conference p. 28. and some so great by the Confession of your owne as weaken the Foundation that it is very hard to goe that way to Heaven especially to them that have had the Truth manifested the heart of this Argument were utterly broken Besides the force of this Argument lyes upon two things one directly Expressed the other but as upon the By. That which is expressed is We and our Adversaries consent that there is salvation to some in the Romane Church What would you have us as malicious at least as rash as your selves are to us and deny you so much as possibility of Salvation If we should we might make you in some things straine for a Proofe But we have not so learned Christ as either to return evill for evill in this headie course or to deny salvation to some ignorant silly soules whose humble peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men that professe the Foundation Christ And therefore seeke not â—…o help our Cause by denying this comfort to silly Christians as you most fiercely do where you can come to worke upon them And this was an old trick of the Donatists For in the Point of Baptisme Whether that Sacrament was true in the Catholike Church or in the Part of Donatus they exhorted all to be baptised among them VVhy Because both Parts granted that Baptisme was true among the Dâ—…atists which that peevish Sect most unjustly denyed the sound part as S. †Esse verò apud Dâ—…natistas Baptismum illi asserunt nos concedimus c. L. 1. de Bap. cont Donat. c. 3. Augustine delivers it I would aske now Had not the Orthodox true Baptisme among them because the Donatists denyed it injuriously Or should the Orthodox against Truth have denyed Baptisme among the Donatists either to cry quittance with them or that their Argument might not be the stronger because both parts granted But Marke this how farre you runne from all common Principles of Christian Peace as well as Christian Truth while you deny salvation most unjustly to us from which you are farther off your selves Besides if this were or could be made a concluding Argument I pray why doe not you believe with us in the Point of the Eucharist For all sides agree in the Faith of the Church of England That in the most Blessed Sacrament the Worthy receiver is by his * Corpus Christi manducatur in Coena c. tantùm caelesti spirituall ratione Medium autem quo Corpus Christi accipitur manducatur in Coenâ Fides est Eccl. Angl. Art 28. After a spirituall manner by Faith on our behalfe and by the working of the Holy Ghost on the behalfe of Christ. Fulk in 1 Cor. 11. p. 528. Christus se cum omnibus bonis suit in Coenâ offert nos eum recipimus fide c. Calv. 4. Inst. c. 17. §. 5. Et Hooker L. 5. §. 67. p. 176. And say not you the same with us Spiritualis manducatio quae per Animam fit ad Christi Carnem in Sacramento pertingit Cajet Tom. 2. Opusc. de Euchar. Tract 2. Cap. 5. Sed
spiritualiter idest invisibiliter per virtutem Spiritus Sancti Thom. p. 3. q. 75. A. 1. ad 1 um Spiritualiter manducandus est per Fidem Charitatem Tena in Heb. 13. Difficultate 8. Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and reall Body and Blood of Christ †I would have no man troubled at the words Truly and Really For that Blessed Sacrament received as it ought to be doth Truly and Really exhibit and apply the Body and the Blood of Christ to the Receiver So Bishop White in his Defence against T. W. P. Edit London 1617. p. 138. And Calvin in 1 Cor. 10. 3. Verè datur c. And againe in 1 Cor. 11. 24. Neque enim Mortis tantùm Resurrectionis suae beneficium nobis offert Christus sed Corpus ipsum in quo passus est resurrexit Concludo Realiter ut vulgò loquuntur hoc est Verè nobis in Coenâ datur Christi Corpus ut sit Animis nostris in cibum Salutarem c. truly and really and of all the Benefits of his Passion Your Romane Catholikes adde a manner of this his Presence Transubstantiation which many deny and the Lutherans a manner of this Presence Consubstantiation which more deny If this argument be good then even for this Consent it is safer Communicating with the Church of England then with the Roman or Lutheran Because all agree in this Truth not in any other Opinion Nay †Hoe totum pendet ex Principiis Metaphysicis philosophicis ad Fidei Doctrinam non est necessarium Suarez iâ—… 3. Thom. Disput. 50. §. 2. Suarez himselfe and he a very Learned Adversary what say you to this A. C doth Truth force this from him Confesses plainely †That to Beleeve Transubstantiation is not simply necessary A. C. p. 64. 65. to Salvation And yet he knew well the Church had Determined it And * Bellar. L. 3. de Eucha c. 18. §. Ex his colligimus Bellarmine after an intricate tedious and almost inexplicable Discourse about an Adductive Conversion A thing which neither Divinity nor Philosophy ever heard of till then is at last forced to come to this a Sed quidquid fit de Modis loquendi illud tenendum est Conversionem Panis Uini in Corpus Sanguinem Christi esse substantialem sed arcanam ineffabilem nullis naturalibus Conversionibus per omnia similem c. Bellar. in Recognit hujus loci Et Vid. §. 38. Nu. 3 Whatsoever is concerning the manner and formes of speech illud tenendum est this is to be held that the Conversion of the Bread and Wine into the Body and the Blood of Christ is substantiall but after a secret and ineffable manner and not like in all things to any naturall Conversion whatsoever Now if he had left out Conversion and affirmed only Christs reall Presence there after a mysterious and indeed an ineffable manner no man could have spoke better And therefore if you will force the Argument alwayes to make that the safest way of Salvation which differing Parties agree on why doe you not yeeld to the force of the same Argument in the Beliefe of the Sacrament one of the most immediate meanes of Salvation where not onely the most but all agree And your owne greatest Clarkes cannot tell what to say to the Contrary I speake here for the force of the Argument which certainly in it selfe is nothing though by A. C. made of great account For he sayes 'T is a A. C. p. 64. Confession of Adversaries extorted by Truth Iust as * Sed quia it a magnum firmamentum vanitatis vestrae in hâc sententia esse abitramini ut ad hoc tiâ—… terminandam putares Epistolam quo quasi recentiùs in Animus LegeÌ„tium remaneret brevitèr respondeo c. S. Aug. L. 2. cont Lit. Petil. c. 108. Andhere A. C. ad hoc sibi putavit terminandaÌ„ Collationem sed frustra ut apâ—…bit Num. 6. Petilian the Donatist brag'd in the case of Baptisme But in truth 't is nothing For the Syllogisme which it frames is this The Papists and the Protestants which are the Parties differing agree in this That there is Salvation possible to be found in the Romane Church But in Point of Faith and Salvation 't is safest for a man to take that way which the differing Parties agree on Therfore 't is safest for a man to be and continue in the Romane Church To the Major Proposition then I observe first that though many Learned Protestants grant this all doe not And then that Proposition is not Universall nor able to sustaine the Conclusion For they doe not in this all agree nay I doubt not but there are some Protestants which can and do as stifly and as churlishly deny them Salvation as they doe us And A. C. should doe well to consider whether they doe it not upon as good reason at least Next for the Minor Proposition Namely That in point of Faith and Salvation 't is safest for a man to take that way which the Adversary confesses or the Differing Parties agree on I fay that is no Metaphysicall Principle but a bare Contingent Proposition and may be true or false as the matter is to which it is applyed and so of no necessary truth in it selfe nor able to leade in the Conclusion Now that this Proposition In point of Faith and Salvation 't is safest for a man to take that way which the differing Parties agree on or which the Adversary Confesses hath no strength in it selfe but is sometimes true and sometimes false as the Matter is about which it is conversant is most evident First by Reason Because Consent of disagreeing Parties is neither Rule nor Proofe of Truth For Herod and Pilate disagreeing Parties enough yet agreed against Truth it selfe But Truth rather is or should be the Rule to frame if not to force Agreement And secondly by the two Instances †§. 35. N. 3 before given For in the Instance betweene the Orthodox Church then and the Donatists this Proposition is most false For it was a Point of Faith and so of Salvation that they were upon Namely the right use and administration of the Sacrament of Baptisme And yet had it beene safest to take up that way which the differing Parts agreed on or which the adverse Part Confessed men must needs have gone with the Donatists against the Church And this must fall out as oft as any Heretick will cunningly take that way against the Church which the Donatists did if this Principle shall goe for currant But in the second Instance concerning the Eucharist a matter of Faith and so of Salvation too the same Proposition is most true And the Reason is because here the matter is true Namely The true and reall participation of the Body and Blood of Christ in that Blessed Sacrament But in the former the matter was false Namely That Rebaptization
Trent opposed this word realiter Figmento Calvinistico to the Calvinisticâ—…ll figment Ibid. Bellarmine confesses it For hee saith Protestants do often grant that the true and reall Body of Christ is in the Eucharist But he adds That they never say so farre as he hath read That it is there â—…ruly and Really unlesse they speake of the Supper which shall be in Heaven Well first if they grant that the true and Reall Body of Christ is in that Blessed Sacrament as Bellarmine confesses they doe and 't is most true then A. C. is false who charges all the Protestants with deniall or doubtfulnesse in this Point And A. C. p 65. secondly Bellarmine himselfe also shewes here his Ignorance or his Malice Ignorance if he knew it not Malice if he would not know it For the Calvinists at least they which follow Calvine himself do not onely believe that the true and reall Body of Christ is received in the Eucharist but that it is there and that we partake of it verè realiter which are b Calv. in 1. Cor. 10. 3. verè c. in 1. Cor. 11. 24. realiter Vids suprà Num. 3. Calvine's owne words and yet Bellarmine boldly affirmes that to his reading no one Protestant did ever affirme it And I for my part cannot believe but Bellarmine had read Calvine and very carefully he doth so frequently and so mainly Oppose him Nor can that Place by any Art be shifted or by any Violence wrested from Calvine's true meaning of the Presence of Christ in and at the blessed Sacrament of the Fucharist to any Supper in Heaven whatsoever But most manifest it is that Quod legerim for ought I have read will not serve Bellarmine to Excuse him For he himselfe but in the very c Bellar. L. 1. de Eucharistia c. 1. §. Secundo docet Chapter going before quotes foure Places out of Calvine in which he sayes expresly That we receive in the Sacrament the Body and the Blood of Christ Verè truly So Calvine sayes it foure times and Bellarmine quotes the places and yet he sayes in the very next Chapter That never any Protestant said so to his Reading And for the Church of England nothing is more plaine then that it believes and teaches the true and reall Presence of Christ in the * The Body of Christ is given taken and eaten in the Supper of the Lord onely after an Heavenly and Spirituall manner And the meanes whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten is Faith Eccl. Ang. Art 28. So here 's the Manner of Transubstantiation denied but the Body of Christ twice affirmed And in the prayer before Consecration thus Grant us Gracious Lord so to eat the Flesh of thy deare Sonne Jesus Christ and to drinke his Blood c. And againe in the second Prayer or Thanksgiving after Consecration thus We give thee Thanks for that thou dost vouchsafe to feed us which have duly received these holy Mysteries with the spirituall food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Sonne our Saviour Jesus Christ c. Eucharist unlesse A. C. can make a Body no Body and Blood no Blood as perhaps he can by Transubstantiation as well as Bread no Bread Wine no Wine And the Church of England is Protestant too So Protestants of all sorts maintain a true and reall Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and then where 's any known or damnable Heresie here As for the Learned of those zealous men that died in this Cause in Q. Maries dayes they denied not the Reall Presence simply taken but as their Opposites forced Transubstantiation upon them as if that and the Reall Presence had beene all one Whereas all the Ancient Christians ever believed the one and none but moderne and superstitious Christians believe the other If they do believe it for I for my part doubt they do not And as for the Vnlearned in those times and all times their zeale they holding the Foundation may eat out their Ignorances and leave them safe Now that the Learned Protestants in Q. Maries dayes did not denie nay did maintaine the Reall Presence will manifestly appeare For when the Commissioners obtruded to Io. Frith the Presence of Christ's naturall Body in the Sacrament and that without all figure or similitude Io. Frith acknowledges †Io. Fox Marâ—…rolog To. 2. London 1597. pag. 943. That the inward man doth as verily receive Christ's Body as the outward man receives the Sacrament with his Mouth And he addes a Fox ibid. That neither side ought to make it a necessary Article of Faith but leave it indifferent Nay Archbishop Cranmer comes more plainely and more home to it then Frith For if you understand saith b Cranmer apud Fox ibid. p. 1301. he by this word Really Reipsâ that is in very deed and effectually so Christ by the Grace and efficacy of his Passion is indeed and truly present c. But if by this word Really you understand c I say Corporalitèr Corporally for so Bellarmine hath it expresly Quod autem Corporalitèr propriè sumatur Sanguis Caro c. probari potest omnibus Argumentis c. Bellar. L. 1. de Eucharist c. 12. §. Sed tota And I must bee bold to tell you more then That this is the Doctrine of the Church of Rome For I must tell you too that Bellarmine here contradicts himselfe For he that tels us here that it can be proved by many Arguments that we receive the Flesh and the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist Corporaliter said as expresly before had he remembred it that though Christ be in this Blessed Sacrament verè realiter yet saith he non dicemus Corporaliter i. e. co modo quo suâ naturâ existunt Corpora c. Bellar. L. 1. de Euchar. c. 2. §. Tertia Regula So Bellarm. here is in a notorious Contradiction Or els it will follow plainly out of him That Christ in the Sacrament is existent one way and received another which is a grosse absurdity And that Corporaliter was the Doctrine of the Church of Rome and meant by Transubstantiation is farther plaine in the Booke called The Institution of a Christian man set forth by the Bishops in Convocation in Hen. 8. time An 1534 Cap. Of the Sacrament of the Altar The words 〈◊〉 Unaâ—…r the forme and figure of Bread and Wine the very Body and Blood of Christ is Corporally really c. exhibited and received c. And Aquinas expresses it thus Quia tamen substantia Corporis Christi realiter non dâ—…iditur à sua quantitate dimensivâ ab aliis 〈◊〉 â—…bus indè est quod ex virealis Concomitantiae est in hoc Sacramento tota quantitas dimensiva Corporis Christi omnia Accidentia ejus Tho. p. 3. q. 76. Ar. 4. c. Corporaliter Corporally in his naturall and Organicall Body under the Formes of Bread and Wine 't
ad hoc teneri Divino jure Bel. L. 1. de Sacrament in genere c. 2. §. 2. Bohemians must have a Dispensation that it may be lawfull for them to receive the Sacrament as Christ commanded them And this must not be granted to them neither unlesse they will acknowledge most opposite to Truth that they are not bound by Divine Law to receive it in both kindes And here their Building with untempered Mortar appeares most manifestly For they have no shew to maintaine this but the fiction of Thomas of Aquin That he which receives the Body of Christ receives also his Blood per †concomitantiam by concomitancy because the Blood goes alwayes with the Body of which Terme †Tho. p. 3. q. 76. A. 2. c. alibi passim Thomas was the first Author I can yet finde First then if this be true I hope Christ knew it And then why did he so unusefully institute it in both kindes Next if this be true Concomitancy accompanies the Priest as well as the People and then why may not he receive it in one kinde also Thirdly this is apparently not true For the Eucharist is a Sacrament Sanguinis effusi of Blood shed and poured out And Blood poured out and so severed from the Body goes not along with the Body per concomitantiam And yet Christ must rather erre or proceed I know not how in the Institution of the Sacrament in both kindes rather then the Holy unerring Church of Rome may doe amisse in the Determination for it and the Administration of it in one kinde Nor will the Distinction That Christ instituted this as a Sacrifice to which both kindes were necessary serve the turne For suppose that true yet hee instituted it as a Sacrament also or els that Sacrament had no Institution from Christ which I presume A. C. dares not affirme And that Institution which this Sacrament had from Christ was in both kindes And since here 's mention happen'd of Sacrifice my Punct 3. Third Instance shall be in the Sacrifice which is offer'd up to God in that Great and High Mystery of our Redemption by the death of Christ For as Christ offer'd up a Christ by his owne Blood entred once into the Holy Place and obtained eternall Redemption for us Heb. 9. 12. And this was done by way of Sacrifice By the offering of the Body of Iesus Christ once made Heb. 10. 10. Christ gave himselfe for us to be an Offering and a Sacrifice of a sweet smelling savour unto God Eph. 5. 2. Out of which place the Schoole infers Passioâ—… Christi verum Sacrificium suisse Tho. p. 3. q. 48. Art 3. c Christ did suffer Death upon the Crosse for our Redemption and made there by his one Oblation of himselfe once offered a full perfect and sufficient Sacrifice Oâ—…lation and Satisfaction for the sinnes of the whole World Eccles. Ang. in Canone Consecrationis Euchar. himselfe once for all a full and all-sufficient Sacrifice for the sinne of the whole world So did He Institute and Command a b And Christ did Institute and in his Holy Gospell Command us to continue a Perpetuall Memory of that his pretious Death untill his Comming againe Eccles. Ang. ibid. Memory of this Sacrifice in a Sacrament even till his comming againe For at and in the Eucharist wee offer up to God three Sacrifices One by the Priest onely that 's the c Sacramentum hoc est Commemorativum Dominicae Passionis quae fuit verum Sacrificium sic Nominatur Sacrifiâ—… Tho. p. 3. q. 73. A. 4. C. Christ being Offer'd up once for all in his owne proper Person is yet said to be Offer'd up c. in the Celebration of the Sacrament Because his Oâ—…lation one for ever made is thereby Represented Lambert in Fox 〈◊〉 Martyrolog Uol 2. Edit Lond. 1597. p. 1033 Et postea 'T is a Memoriall or Representation thereof Ibid. The 〈◊〉 of the Sentences judged truly in this Point saying That whâ—… is offer'd and Consecrated of the Priest is called a Sacrifice aâ—… Oblation because it is a Memory and Representation of tâ—… true Sacrifice and Holy Oblation made on the Altar of tâ—… Crosse. Arch-Bishop Cranmer in his Answer to Bishop 〈◊〉 concerning the most Holy Sacrament L. 5. p. 377. Aâ—… againe this shortly is the minde of Lombardus That the thâ—… which is done at Gods Board is a Sacrifice and so is that 〈◊〉 which was made upon the Crosse but not after one mannâ—… 〈◊〉 understanding I or this was the Thing indeed and that is 〈◊〉 Commemoration of the Thing Ibid. So likewise Bishop 〈◊〉 acknowledgeth incruentum rationabile Sacrificium 〈◊〉 of by Euseb. De Demonstrat Evang. L. 〈◊〉 Ieâ—…ls 〈◊〉 against Harding Art 7. Divis. 9. Againe The 〈◊〉 of the Holy Communion is sometimes of the Ancâ—…ent 〈◊〉 called an Vnbloody Sacrifice not in respect of any Corpoâ—… fleshly presence that is imagined to be there without 〈◊〉 shedding but for that it representeth and reporteth to 〈◊〉 minds that one and everlasting Sacrifice that Christ made 〈◊〉 Body upon the Crosse. This Bishop Jewel disliketh not in his Answer to Harding Art 17. Divis. 14. Patres Coenam Dominicam duplici de causa vocarunt Sacrificium incruentum Tum quod sit Imago solennis repraesentatio illius Sacrificii 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quod Christus cum sanguinis effusione obtulit in Cruce Tum quod sit etiam Eucharisticum Sacrificium id est Sacrificium Laudis gratiarum actionis cùm pro beneficiis omnibus tum pro redemptione imprimis per Christi mortem peractâ Zanch. in 2. Praecep Decal T. 4. p. 459 And D. Fulke also acknowledges a Sacrifice in the Eucharist In S. Mat. 26. 26. Non dissimulaverint Christiani in Coena Domini five ut ipsi loquebantur in Sacrificio Altaris peculiari quodam modo praesentem se venerari Deum Christianorum sed quae esset forma ejus sacrificii quod per Symbola Panis vini peragitur hoc Veteres praese non ferebant Isa. Casaub. Exercit. 16. ad Annal. Baron §. 43. p. 560. Commemorative Sacrifice of Christs Death represented in Bread broken and Wine poured out Another by the * In the Liturgie of the Church of England we pray to God immediately after the reception of the Sacrament That He would bee pleased to accept this our Sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving c. And Heb. 13. 15. The Sacrifice Propitiatory was made by Christ himselfe only but the Sacrifice Commemorative and Gratulatory is made by the Priest and the People Archbishop Cranmer in his Answer to Bishop Gardner L. 5 p. 377. Priest the People joyntly and that is the Sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving for all the Benefits and graces we receive by the precious Death of Christ. The Third †I beseech you Brethren by the mercies of God that you give up your Bodies a living Sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God Rom. 12.
1. We offer and present unto thee O Lord our selves our soules and bodies to be a reasonable holy and living Sacrifice unto thee So the Church of England in the Prayer after the receiving of the Blessed Sacrament by every particular man for himself onely and that is the Sacrifice of every mans Body and Soule to serve him in both all the rest of his life for this blessing thus bestowed on him Now thus farre these dissenting Churches agree that in the Eucharist there is a Sacrifice of Duty and a Sacrifice of Praise and a Sacrifice of Commemoration of Christ. Therefore according to the former Rule and here in truth too 't is fafest for a man to believe the Commemorative the Praising and the Performing Sacrifice and to offer them duly to God and leave the Church of Rome in this Particular to her Superstitions that I may say no more And would the Church of Rome stand to A. C s. Rule and believe dissenting Parties where they agree were it but in this and that before of the Reall Presence it would work farre toward the Peace of Christendome But the Truth is They pretend the Peace of Christendome but care no more for it then as it may uphold at least if not increase their owne Greatnesse My fourth Instance shall be in the Sacrament of Baptisme and the things required as necessary to make it Punct 4. effectuall to the Receiver They in the common received Doctrine of the Church of Rome are three The Matter the Forme and the Intention of the Priest to doe that which the Church doth and intends he should doe Now all other Divines as well ancient as moderne and both the dissenting Churches also agree in the two former but many deny that the Intention of the Priest is necessary Will A. C. hold his Rule That 't is safest to believe in a controverted Point of Faith that which the dissenting Parties agree on or which the Adverse Part Confesses If he will not then why should he presse that as a Rule to direct others which he will not be guided by himselfe And if he will then he must goe professedly against the * Con. Trid. Sess. 7. Can. 11. Councell of Trent which hath determined it as defide as a Point of Faith that the Intention of the Priest is necessary to make the Baptisme true and valid Though in the †Histor. Con. Trid. L. 2. p. 277. Edit Lat. Leyâ—… dae 1622. History of that Councell 't is most apparent the Bishops and other Divines there could not tell what to answer to the Bishop of Minors a Neapolitane who declared his Iudgement openly against it in the face of that Councell My fift Instance is Wee say and can easily Punct 5. prove there are divers Errors and some grosse ones in the Roman Missall But I my selfe have heard some Iesuites confesse that in the Liturgie of the Church of England there 's noe positive errour And being pressed why then they refused to come to our Churches and serve God with us They answered they could not doe it Because though our Liturgie had in it nothing ill yet it wanted a great deale of that which was good and was in their Service Now here let A. C. consider againe Here is a plaine Concession of the adverse Part And Both agree there 's nothing in our Service but that which is holy and good What will the Iesuite or A. C. say to this If hee forsake his ground then it is not safest in point of Divine Worship to joyne in Faith as the dissenting Parties agree or to stand to the Adversaries owne Confession If hee be so hardy as to maintaine it then the English Liturgie is better and safer to worship Cod by then the Romane Masse Which yet I presume A. C. will not confesse In all these Instances the Matter so falling out of it selfe for the Argument enforces it not the thing is true but not therefore true because the dissenting Parties agree in it or because the adverse Part Confesses it Yet least the Iesuite or A. C. for him farther to deceive the weake should inferre that this Rule in so many Instances is true and false in none but that one concerning Baptisme among the Donatists and therefore the Argument is true ut plerumque as for the most and that therfore 't is the safest way to believe that which dissenting Parties agree on I will lay downe some other Particulars of as great Consequence as any can be in or about Christian Religion And if in them A. C. or any Iesuite dare say that 't is safest to believe as the dissenting Parties agree or as the adverse Partie confesses I dare say he shall bee an Heretick in the highest degree if not an Infidell And First where the Question was betwixt the Ortbodox and the Arrian whether the Son of God were Punct 1. consubstantiall with the Father The Orthodox said he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the same substance The Arrian came within a Letter of the Truth and said he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of like substance Now hee that sayes hee is of the same substance confesses hee is of like substance and more that is Identity of Substance for Identity containes in it all Degrees of likenesse and more But hee that acknowledges and believes that Hee is of like nature and no more denies the Identity Therefore if this Rule be true That it is safest to believe that in which the dissenting Parties agree or which the Adverse Part Confesses which A. C. makes such great vaunt of then 't is safest A. C. p. 64. 65. for a Christian to believe that Christ is of like nature with God the Father and bee free from Beliefe that Hee is Consubstantiall with him which yet is Concluded by the a Con. Nicen. Fides vel Symbolum in fine Concil Councell of Nice as necessary to Salvation and the Contrary Condemned for Damnable Heresie Secondly in the Question about the Resurrection Punct 2. betweene the Orthodoxe and diverse Grosse b Saturninus Basilides Carpocrates Cerinthus Valentinus Cerdon Apelles c. Tertull. de praescript advers Haret c. 46. 48. 49. 51. c. Heretickes of old and the Anabaptists and Libertines of late For all or most of these dissenting Parties agree that there ought to bee a Resurrection from sinne to a state of Grace and that this Resurrection onely is meant in diverse Passages of holy Scripture together with the Life of the Soule which they are content to say is Immortall But c Libertini rident speâ—… omnem quam de Resurrectione habemus idque jam nobis evenisse dicunt quod adhuc expectamus c. ut Homo sciat Animam suam Spiritum immortalem esse perpeâ—… viventem in Coelis c. Calv. instructione advers Libertinos c. 22. princ Sunt etiam hodie Libertini qui eam irrident Resurrectionem quae tractatur in Scripturis tantùm ad
the printed Edition of Gildas by Polyd. Virg. which Edition was printed at London An. 1525. and was never reprinted since Thirdly these words are as expresse in the Edition of Gildas by Io. Ioselin printed at London also An. 1568. And this falshood of Broughton is so much the more foule because he boasts Proetat to his Reader fine That he hath seene and diligâ—…ntly perused the most and best Monuments and Antiquities extant c. For if he did not see and peruse these he is vainely false to say it if he did see them he is most maliciously false to belie them And lastly whereas he sayes The Protestants themselves confesse so much I must believe he is as false in this as in the former till he name the Protestants to me which do confesse it And when he doth he shall gaine but this from me That those Protestants which confessed it were mistaken For the thing is mistaken but not the Eldest neither had a great Care committed unto her in and from the prime times of the Church and to her Bishop in Her but at this time to let passe many brawles that have formerly beene in the House England and some other Sisters of hers are fallen out in the Family What then Will the Father and the Mother God and the Church cast one Child out because another is angry with it Or when did Christ give that power to an Elder Sister that She and her Steward the Bishop there should thrust out what Child shee pleased Especially when shâ—…e her selfe is justly accused to have given the Offence that is taken in the House Or will not both Father and Mother be sharper to Her for this unjust and unnaturall usage of her younger Sisters but their deare Children Nay is it not the next way to make them turne her out of doores that is so unnaturall to the rest It is well for all Christian men and Churches that the Father and Mother of them are not so curst as some would have them And Salvation need not bee feared of any dutifull Child nor Outing from the Church because this Elder Sisters faults are discovered in the House and shee growne froward for it against them that complained But as Children cry when they are waked out of sleepe so doe you and wrangle with all that come neare you And * Returne of Untruths upon M. Iewell Art 4. Vntruth 105. Stapleton confesses That yee were in a dead sleep and over-much rest when the Protestants stole upon you Now if you can prove that Rome is properly The †For I am sure there is a Romane Church that is but a Particular Bellarm L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. And then you must either shew me another Romane Church which is The Catholike Or you must shew how One and the same Romane Church is in different Respects or Relations A Particular and yet The Catholike Which is not yet done And I do not say A Particular and yet A Catholâ—…ke Bâ—…t A Particular and yet The Catholike Church For so you speake For that which Card. Peron hath That the Romane Church is the Catholike Causally because it infuses Vniversality into all the whole Body of the Catholike Church can I thinke satisfie no man that reads it That a Particular should infuse Vniversality into an Vniversall Peron L. 4. of his Reply c. 9. Catholike Church it selfe as you commonly call it speak out and prove it In the meane time you may Marke this too if you will and it seemes you doe for here you forget not what the Bishop said to you F. The Lady which doubted said the Bishop to mee may be better saved in it then you B. I said so indeed Marke that too Where yet by the way these words Then you doe not suppose Person § 36 only For I will Iudge * Rom. 14. 4. no man that hath another Master to stand or fall to But they suppose Calling and Sufficiency in the Person Then you that is Then any man of your Calling and knowledge of whom more is required And then no question of the truth of this speech That that Person may better be saved that is easier then you then any man that knowes so much of truth and opposes against it as you and others of your Calling doe How far you know Truth other men may judge by your Proofes and Causes of knowledge but how far you oppose Truth knowne to you that is within and no man can know but God and yourselves Howsoever where the Foundation is but held there for †Caeteram turbam non intelligendi vivacitas sed credendi simplicitas tutissimam facit S. Aug. cont Fund c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Naz. Orat. 21. Omission of Inquiry many times saves the People ordinary men it is not the vivacity of understanding but the simplicity of Beleiving that makes them safe For S. Augustine speakes there of men in the Church and no * Haeretickes in respect of the Profession of sundry Divine Verities which they still retaine in common with right Believers c. doe still pertaine to the Church Field L. 1. de Eccles. c. 14. Potest aliquis Ecclesiae membrum esse secundùm quid qui tamen simpliciter non est Haereticus recedens à Fide non dimittitur ut Paganus sed propter Baptismi Characterem punitur ut transfuga excommunicationis gladio Spiritualitèr occiditur Stapl. Contro 1. q. 2. A. 3. Notabili 3. The Apostle pronounces some gone out S. Ioh 2. 19. from the fellowship of sound Beleivers when as yet the Christian Religion they had not utterly cast off In like sense and meaning throughout all Ages Haeretikes have justly beene hated as Branches cut off from the true Vine yet onely so far forth cut off as the Haeresies have extended For both Haeresie and many other Crimes which wholly sever from God doe sever from the Church of God but in part only Hooker L. 5. Eccles. Pol. §. 68. man can be said simply to be Out of the Visible Church that is Baptized and holds the Foundation And as it is the simplicity of beleiving that makes them safe yea safest so is it sometimes A quicknesse of Understanding that loving it selfe and some by-respects too well makes men take up an unsafe way about the Faith So that there 's no question but many were saved in corrupted times of the Church when their a Ipsis Magiâ—… pereuntibus 〈◊〉 fortè ante â—…tem resipuerâ—… Luth. de Sov Arbit Haeresiarchae plâ—…s peccant quam alii qui Haeresin aliquam sunt secuti Supplem Tho q. 99. A. 4. c Leaders unlesse they repented before death were lost And b Si mihi videretur unus idem Haereticus Haereticis credens homo c. S. Aug. L. 1. de Util. Cred. c. 1. S. Augustine's Rule will bee true That in all Corruptions of the Church there will ever bee a difference betweene an Hereticke and a plaine
Contrary to his Conscience Presupposing it granted that the Church of Rome erres only in not Fundamentals and such Errours not Damnable which is absolutely and clearly denyed by D. White To this A. C. sayes nothing but that D. VVhite did not give this Answer A. C. p. 67. at the Conference I was not present at the Conference betweene them so to that I can say nothing as a witnesse But I thinke all that knew D. White will believe his affirmation as soone as the Iesuites To say no more And whereas A. C. referres to the Relation of the Conference betweene D. White and M. Fisher A. C. p. 67. most true it is there * A. C. in his relation of that Conference p. 26. D. VVhite is charged to have made that Answer twise But all this rests upon the credit of A. C. only For †For so 't is said in the Title-page by A. C. he is said to have made that Relation too as well as this And against his Credit I must engage D. Whites who hath avowed another Answer as a §. 37. Nu. 1. NUM 8. before is set downe And since A. C. relates to that Conference which it seemes hee makes some good account of I shall here once for all take occasion to assure the Reader That most of the Points of Moment in that Conference with D. VVhite are repeated againe and againe and urged in this Conference or the Relation of A. C. and are here answered by me For instance In the Relation of the first Conference the Iesuite takes on him to prove 1 the Vnwritten VVord of God out of 2. Thes. 2. pag. 15. And so he doth in the Relation of this Conference with me pag. 50. In the first he stands upon it That the Protestants 2 upon their Principles cannot hold that all Fundamentall points of Faith are contained in the Creed pag. 19. And so he doth in this pag. 46. In the first he would faine through 3 M. Roger's sides wound the Church of England as if shee were unsetled in the Article of Christ's Descent into Hell pag 21 And he endeavours the same in this pag. 46. In the first he is very earnest to prove That the Schisme was made by the Protestants pag. 23. And he is as earnest for 4 it in this pag. 55. In the first he layes it for a Ground That Corruption of Manners is no just Cause of separation 5 from Faith or Church pag. 24. And the same Ground he layes in this pag. 55. In the first he will have it That the 6 Holy Ghost gives continuall and Infallible Assistance to the Church pag. 24. And just so will he have it in this p 53. In the first he makes much adoe about the Errig of the 7 Greeke Church page 28. And as much makes he in this page 44. In the first he makes a great noyse about the 8 place in S. Augustine Ferendus est disputator errans c. page 18. and 24. And so doth hee here also page 45. In the first he would make his Proselytes believe That 9 he and his Cause have mighty advantage by that Sentence of S. Bernard 'T is intolerable Pride And that of S. Augustine 'T is insolent madnesse to oppose the Doctrine or Practice of the Catholike Church page 25. And twise he is at the same Art in this page 56. and. 73. In the first he 10 tels us That * Postquam discessionem a toto mundo facere coacti sumus Calv. Epist. 141. Calvin confesses That in the Reformation there was a Departure from the whole world page 25. And though I conceive Calvine spake this but of the Roman world and of no Uoluntary but a forced Departure and wrote this to Melancthon to worke Vnity among the Reformers not any way to blast the Reformation Yet we must heare of it againe in this page 56. But over and above the rest one Place with his owne glosse upon 11 it pleases him extremely 'T is out of S. Athanasius his Creed That whosoever doth not hold it entire that is saith he in all Points and Inviolate that is saith hee in the true unchanged and uncorrupted sense proposed unto us by the Pastors of his Catholike Church without doubt he shall perish everlastingly This he hath almost verbatim in the first page 20. And in the Epistle of the Publisher of that Relation to the Reader under the Name of VV. I. and then againe the very same in this if not with some more disadvantage to himselfe page 70. And perhaps had I leasure to search after them more Points then these Now the Reasons which mooved mee to set downe these Particulars thus distinctly are two The One that whereas the * In the begining of the Conference set out by A. C. Iesuite affirmes that in a second Conference all the speech was about Particular matters and little or nothing about the maine and great generall Point of a Continuall Infallible Uisible Church in which that Lady required satisfaction and that therefore this third Conference was held It may hereby appeare that the most materiall both Points and Proofes are upon the matter the very same in all the three Conferences though little bee related of the second Conference by A. C. as appeares in the Preface of the Publisher VV. I. to the Reader So this tends to nothing but Ostentation and shew The Other is that Whereas these men boast so much of their Cause and their Ability to defend it It cannot but appeare by this and their handling of other Points in Divinity that they labour indeed but no otherwise then like an Horse in a Mill round about in the same Circle no farther at night then at noone The same thing over and over againe from Tu es Petrus to Pasce oves from thou art Peter to Do thou feed my Sheepe And backe againe the same way F. The Lady asked Whether she might be saved in the Protestant Faith Vpon my soule said the Bishop you may Vpon my soule said I there is but one saving Faith and that is the Romane B. So it seems I was confident for the Faith professed § 38 in the Church of England els I would not have taken the salvation of another upon my soule And sure I had reason of this my Confidence For to believe the Scripture and the Creeds to believe these in the sense of the Ancient Primitive Church To receive the foure great Generall Councels so much magnified by Antiquity To believe all Points of Doctrine generally received as Fundamentall in the Church of Christ is a Faith in which to live and die cannot but give salvation And therefore I went upon a sure ground in the adventure of my soule upon that Faith Besides in all the Points of Doctrine that are contioverted betweene us I would faine see any one Point maintained by the Church of England that can be proved
as if this were Translocation rather then Transubstantiation So in this charge upon him I am not alone And faine would be shift off this but it will not be But while he is at it he runs into two pretty Errours beside the maine one The first is That the body of Christ in the Sacrament begins to be non ut in loco sed ut substantia sub Accidentibut Now let Bellarm. or A. C. for him give me any one Instance That a Bodily Substance under Accidents is or can be any where and not ut in loco as in some place and he sayes somwhat The second is That some Fathers and others seeme he sayes but I see it not to approve of his manner of speech of Conversion by Adduction And he tels us for this that Bonaventure sayes expresly In Transubstantiatione fit ut quod erat alicubi sine sui mutations sit alibi Now first here 's nothing that can be drawne with Cart-ropes to prove conversion by Adduction For if there be Conversion there must be Change And this is fine mutatione sui And secondly I would faine know how a Body that is alicubi shall be alibi without change of it selfe and yet that this shall be rather Transubstantiation then Translocation Besides 't is a Phrase of very sowre Consequence should a man squâ—…eze it which Bellar. uses there even in his Recognition Panis transit in Corpus Christi Bellarmines struggle about it w ch yet in the end cannot bee or bee called Transubstantiation and is that which at this day is a †A Scandall and a grievous one For this grosse Opinion was but confirmed in the Councell of Lateran It had got some footing in the Church the two blinde ages before For Berengarius was made recant in such Termes as the Romanists are put to their shifts to excuse Bellar. L. 3. de Euchar. c. 24. §. Quartum Argumentum For he sayes expresly Corpus Christi posse in Sacramento sensualitèr manibus Sacerdotum tractari frangi fidelium dentibus atteri Decr. par 3. de Consecratione Dist. 2. C. Ego Berengarius Now this Recantation was made about the yeare 1050. And the Councell of Lateran was in the yeare 1215. Betâ—…ene this grosse Recantation of Berengarius and that Councell the great Learned Physitian and Philosopher Averroes lived and tooke scandall at the whole Body of Christian Religion for this And thus he saith Mundum peragravi c. non vidi Sectam deteriorem aut magis fatuam Christianâ quia Deum quem colunt dentibus devorans Espeneaeus L. 4. de Euchar adoratione c. 3. scandall to both Iew Gentile and the Church of God * NUM 4. A. C. p. 69. For all this A. C. goes on and tels us That they of Rome cannot be proved to depart froÌ„ the Foundation somuch as ProtestaÌ„ts do So then We have at last a Confession here that they may be prooved to depart from the Foundation though not so much or so farre as the Protestants doe I do not meane to answer this and prove that the Romanists do depart as farre or farther from the Foundation then the Protestants for then A. C. would take me at the same lift and say I granted a departure too Briefly therefore I have named here more Instances then one In some of which they have erred in the Foundation or very neare it But for the Church of England let A. C. instance if he can in any one point in which She hath departed from the Foundation Well that A. C. will do For he sayes The Protestants erre against the Foundation by denying Infallible A. C. p. 69. Authority to a Generall Councell for that is in effect to deny Infallibility to the whole Catholike Church a §. 33. Consid. 4. Nu 1. No there 's a great deale of difference betweene a Generall Councell and the whole Body of the Church And when a Generall Councell erres as the second of Ephesus did out of that great Catholike Body another may be gathered as was then that of Chalcedon to doe the Truth of Christ that right which belongs unto it Now if it were all one in effect to say a Generall Councell can erre and that the Whole Church can erre there were no Remedy left against a Generall Councell erring b §. 33. Consid. 7. Nu. 4. which is your Case now at Rome and which hath thrust the Church of Christ into more straits then any one thing besides But I know where you would be A Generall Councell is Infallible if it be confirmed by the Pope and the Pope he is Infallible els he could not make the Councell so And they which deny the Councels Infallibility deny the Pope's which confirmes it And then indeed the Protestants depart a mighty way from this great Foundation of Faith the Popes Infallibility But God be thanked this is only from the Foundation of the present Romane Faith as A. C. and the Iesuite call it not from any Foundation of the Christian A. C. p. 68. Faith to which this Infallibility was ever a stranger From Answering A. C. fals to asking Questions I thinke he meanes to try whether he can win any thing upon me by the cunning way A multis Interrogationibus simul by asking many things at once to see if any one may make me slip into a Confession inconvenient And first he asks How Protestants admitting no Infallible Rule of Faith but A. C. p. 69 Scripture onely can be infallibly sure that they believe the same entire Scripture and Creed and the Foure first Generall Councels and in the same incorrupted sense in which the Primitive Church believed 'T is just as I said Here are many Questions in one and I might easily be caught would I answer in grosse to them all together but I shall go more distinctly to worke Well then I admit no ordinary Rule left now in the Church of Divine and Infallible Verity and so of Faith but the Scripture And I believe the entire Scripture first by the Tradition of the Church Then by all other credible Motives as is before expressed And last of all by the light which shines in the Scripture it selfe kindled in Believers by the Spirit of God Then I believe the entire Scripture Infallibly and by a Divine Infallibility am sure of my Object Then am I as sure of my Believing which is the Act of my Faith conversant about this Object For no man believes but he must needs know in himselfe whether he believes or no and wherein and how farre he doubts Then I am infallibly assured of my Creed the Tradition of the Church inducing and the Scripture confirming it And I believe both Scripture and Creed in the same uncorrupted sense which the Primitive Church believed them and am sure that I do so Believe them because I crosse not in my Beliefe any thing delivered by the Primitive Church And this againe I am sure of
Faith and an Infallible understanding of the same thing under the same Considerations cannot possibly stand together in the same man at the same time A. C. hath not done asking yet But he would farther know Whether Protestants can be Infallibly sure that all and onely those points which Protestants account A. C. p. 69. Fundamentall and necessary to be expressely knowne by all were so accounted by the Primitive Church Truly Vnity in the Faith is very Considerable in the Church And in this the Protestants agree and as Vnisormely as you and have as Infallible Assurance as you can have of all points which they account Fundamentall yea and of all which were so accounted by the Primitive Church And these are but the Creed and some few and those Immediate deductions from it And †Tert. praescript adversus Haeres c. 13. c Tertullian and * Ruffin in Symb. Ruffinus upon the very Clause of the Catholike Church to decypher it make a recitall only of the Fundamentall Points of Faith And for the first of these the Creed you see what the sense of the Primitive Church was by that famous and knowne place of a Et neque qui valde potens est in dicendo ex Ecclesiae Praefectis alia ab his dicet c. Neque debilis in dicendo hanc Traditionem imminuet Quùm euim una cadem fides sit ueque is qui multum de eâ dicere potest plusquam oportet dicit neque qui parum ipsam imminuit Irenae L. 1. Adv. Haer. c. 2. 3. Et S. Basil. Serm. de Fide To. 2. p. 195. Edit Bafil 1505. Vna Immobilis Regula c. Tert. de veland Virg. c. 1. Irenaeus where after hee had recited the Creed as the Epitome or Briefe of the Faith he addes That none of the Governors of the Church be they never so potent to Expresse themselves can say alia ab his other things from these Nor none so weake in Expression as to diminish this Tradition For since the Faith is One and the same He that can say much of it sayes no more then he ought Nor doth he diminish it that can say but little And in this the Protestants all agree And for the second the immediate Deductions they are not formally Fundamentall for all men but for such b Quantum ad prima Credibilia quae sunt Articuli Fidei tenetur homo Explicitè credere sicut tenetur habere fidem Quantum autem ad alia Credibilia c. non tenetur Explicitè credere nisi quando hoc ci constiterit in Doctrinâ Fidei contineri Tho. 2. 2 q. 2. A. 5. c. Potest quis Errare Credendo oppositum Alicui Articulo subtill ad cujas sidem explicitam non â—…mnis teuentur Holkot in 1. sent q. 1. ad quartum as are able to make or understand them And for others t is enough if they doe not obstinatâ—…ly or Schismatically refuse them after they are once revealed Indeed you account many things Fundamentall which were never so accounted in any sense by the Primitive Church such as are all the Decrees of Generall Councels which may be all true but can never be all Fundamentall in the Faith For it is not in the power of * Resolutio Ocbam est Quod nec tota Ecclesiae nec Concilium Generale nâ—… suminus Pontifex potest facere Artiâ—…ulum quod non suit Articulus Articulus cuim est ex co solo qui à Deo Revelatuâ—… est Almain in 3. sent D. 15. q. unica Coâ—…clus 4. Dub 3. the whole Church much lesse of a Generall Councell to make any thing Fundamentall in the Faith that is not contained in the Letter or sense of that common Faith which was once given and but once for all to the Saints S. Lude 3. But if it be A. C's meaning to call S. Iude vers 3. for an Infallible Assurance of all such Points of Faith as are Decreed by Generall Councels Then I must bee bold to tell him All those Decrees are not necessary to all mens salvation Neither doe the Romanists themselves agree in all such determined Points of Faith Be they determined by Councels or by Popes For Instance After those Bookes which wee account Apochryphall were †Concil Trid Sess 4. defined to bee Canonicall and an Anathema pronounced in the Case a Six Senens Biblioth Sanct. L. 1. Sixtus Senensis makes scruple of some of them And after b Non est necessariò credendum Detâ—…minatis per Sum Pontificem c. Aimain in 3. sent D. 24. q. unica Conclus 6. Dubio 6. fine Pope Leo the tenth had defined the Pope to be aboue a Generall Councell yet many Romane Catholikes defend the Contrary And so doe all the Sorbonists at this very day Therefore if these be Fundamentall in the Faith the Romanists differ one from another in the Faith nay in the Fundamentals of the Faith And therefore cannot have Infallible Assurance of them Nor is there that Unity in the Faith amongst them which they so much and so often boast of For what Scripture is Canonicall is a great point of Faith And I believe they will not now Confesse That the Popes power over a Generall Councell is a small one And so let A. C. looke to his owne Infallible Assurance of Fundamentals in the Faith for ours God be thanked is well And since he is pleased to call for a particular Text of Scripture to proove all and every thing of this nature which is ridiculous in it selfe and unreasonable to demand as hath beene * §. 38. N. 6. shewed yet when he shall bee pleased to bring forth but a particular knowne Tradition to proove all and every thing of this on their side it will then be perhaps time for him to call for and for us to give farther Answer about particular Texts of Scripture After all this Questioning A. C. inferres That I had need seeke out some other Infallible Rule and meanes by A. C. p. 69. which I may know these things infalliâ—…ly or else that I have no reason to be so confident as to adventure my soule that one may be saved living and dying in the Protestant faith How weake this Inference is will easily appeare by that which I have already said to the premises And yet I have somewhat left to say to this Inference also And first I have lived and shall God willing dye in the Faith of Christ as it was professed in the Ancient Primitive Church and as it is professed in the present Church of England And for the Rule which governes me herein if I cannot bee confident for my soule upon the Scripture and the Primitive Church expounding and declaring it I will be confident upon no other And secondly I have all the reason in the world to be confident upon this Rule for this can never deceive me Another that very other which A. C. proposes
tantum ut omnes Mandato suo obediant licitum est Catholicis facere Quià praestant solum Obedientia officium Sin jubeat ut eo Symbolo fimul Religionem Haereticam profiteantur parere non debent Quares iterum An liceat Catholico obedire modò publicè asseveret se id efficere solùm ut Principi suo obediat non ut sectam hareticam profiteatur I Respondeo Quidam id licere arbitrantur ne bona ejus publicentâ—…r vel Vita eripiatur Quod sanè probabiliter dici videtur Azorius Instit. Moral p. 1. L 8. c. 27 p. 1299. Edit Paris 1616. Azorius affirmes this in expresse termes And what doe you think can he prove it Nay not Azorius onely but other Priests and Iesuites here in England either teach some of their Proselytes or els some of them learn it without teaching That though they be perswaded as this Lady was that is though they be Romane Catholikes yet either to gaine honour or save their purse they may goe to the Protestant Church just as the Iesuite here sayes The Lady did out of frailty and feare to offend the King Therefore I pray A. C. if this be grosse dissimulation both with God and the world speake to your fellowes to leave perswading or practising of it and leave men in the profession of Religion to bee as they seeme or to seeme and appeare as they are Let 's have no Maske worne here A. C s. second Reason why one so perswaded as that Lady was might not goe to the Protestant Church is Because that were outwardly A. C. p. 73. to professe a Religion in Conscience knowne to bee false To this I answer first that if this Reason be true it concernes all men as well as those that be perswaded as the Lady was For no man may outwardly professe a Religion in conscience knowne to bee false For with the bea rt man believeth to righteousnesse and with the mouth hee confesseth to salvation Rom. 10. Rom. 10. 10. Now to his owne salvation no man can confesse a knowne false Religion Secondly if the Religion of the Protestants be in conscience a knowne false Religion then the Romanists Religion is so too for their Religion is the same Nor do the Church of Rome and the Protestants set up a different Religion for the Christian Religion is the same to both but they differ in the same Religion And the difference is in certaine grosse corruptions to the very endangering of salvation which each side sayes the other is guilty of Thirdly the Reason given is most untrue for it may appeare by all the former Discourse to any Indifferent Reader that Religion as it is professed in the Church of England is nearest of any Church now in being to the Primiâ—…ive Church And therefore not a Religion knowne to be false And this I both doe and can prove were not the deafenesse of the Aspe upon the eares of seduced 〈◊〉 58. 4. Christians in all humane and divided parties whatsoever After these Reasons thus given by him A. C. tels me That I neither doe nor can prove any superstition A. C. p. 73. or errour to be in the Romane * I would A. C. would call it the Romane Perswasion as some understanding Romanists do Religion What none at all Now truly I would to God from my heart this were true and that the Church of Rome were so happy and the whole Catholike Church thereby blessed with Truth and Peace For I am confident such Truth as that would soone either Command Peace or †For though I spare their Names yet can I not agree in Iudgement with him that sayes in Print God be praised for the disagreement in Religion Nor in Devotion with him that prayed in the Pulpit That God would teare the Rent of Religion wider But of S. Greg. Naz. Opinion I am 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Non studemus paci in detrimentum verae Doctrinae ut facilitatis Mansuetudinis famam colligamus Et rursum Pacem colimus legitimè pâ—…gnantes c. Orat. 32. confound Peace-Breakers But is there no Superstition in Adoration of Images None in Invocation of Saints None in Adoration of the Sacrament Is there no errour in breaking Christs own Institution of the Sacrament by giving it but in one kinde None about Purgatorie About Common Prayer in an unknowne tongue none These and many more are in the Romane Religion if you will needs call it so And 't is no hard worke to prove every of these to be Errour or Superstition or both But if A. C. think so meanely of me that though this be no hard worke in it selfe yet that I such is my weakenesse cannot prove it I shall leave him to enjoy that opinion of me or what ever else he shall be pleased to entertaine and am farre better content with this his opinion of my weaknesse then with that which followes of my pride for he adds That I cannot A. C. p. 73. prove any Errour or Superstition to be in the Romane Religion but by presuming with intolerable pride to make my selfe or some of my fellowes to be Iudge of Controversies and by taking Authority to censure all to be Superstition and Errour too which sutes not with my fancy although it be generally held or practised by the Vniversall Church Which saith he in S. Augustine's judgement is most 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 What not prove any Superstition any Errâ—…ur at Rome but by Pride and that 〈◊〉 Truly I would to God A. C. saw my heart and all the Pride that lodges therein But wherein doth this Pride appeare that he censures me so deeply Why first in this That I cannot prove any Errour or Superstition to be in the Romane Religion unlesse I make my selfe or 〈◊〉 of my fellowes Iudge of Controversies Indeed if I tooke this upon me I were guilty of great Pride But A C. knowes well that before in this Conference which he undertakes to Answer I am so farre from making my selfe or any of my fellowes Iudge of Controversies that a §. 33. §. 26. Nu. 1. 11. I absolutely make a lawfull and free Generall Councell Iudge of Controversies by and according to the Scriptures And this I learned from b Praeponitur Scripturae c. S. Aug. L. 2. de Bapt. cont Donat c. 3. S. Augustine with this That ever the Scripture is to have the prerogative above the Councell Nay A. C. should remember here that c §. 32. Nu. 5. A. C. p. 63. he himselfe taxes me for giving too much power to a Generall Councell and binding men to a strict Obedience to it even in Case of Errour And therefore sure most innocent I am of the intolerable pride which he is pleased to charge upon me and he of all men most unfit to charge it Secondly A. C. will have my pride appeare in this A. C. p. 73. that I take Authority to censure all for
Errour and Superstition which sutes not with my own fancy But how can this possibly be since I submit my judgement in all humility to the Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Church and upon new and necessary doubts to the judgement of a lawfull and free Generall Councell And this I do from my very heart and do abhorre in matters of Religion that my own or any private mans fancy should take any place and least of all against things generally held or practised by the Vniversall Church which to oppose in such things is certainly as d S. Aug. Epist. â—…8 〈◊〉 5. S. Augustine cals it Insolentissimae insaniae an Attempt of most insolent madnesse But those things which the Church of England charges upon the Romane Party to be superstitious and erroneous are not held or practised in or by the universall Church generally either for time or place And now I would have A. C. consider how justly all this may be turned upon himselfe For he hath nothing to pretend that there are not grosse Superstitions and Errours in the Romane Perswasion unlesse by intolerable pride he will make himselfe and his Party Iudge of Controversies as in effect he doth for he will be judged by none but the Pope and a Councell of his ordering or unlesse he will take Authority to free from Superstition and Errour whatsoever sutes with his fancy though it be even Superstition it selfe and run crosse to what hath been generally held in the Catholike Church of Christ Yea though to do so be in S. Augustine's judgement most insolent madnesse And A. C. spake in this most properly when he called it taking of Authority For the Bishop and Church of Rome have in this particular of judging Controversies indeed taken that Authority to themselves which neither Christ nor his Church Catholike did ever give them Here the Conference ended with this Conclusion And as I hope God hath given that Lady mercy so I heartily pray that he will be pleased to give all of you a Light of his Truth and a Love to it that you may no longer be made Instruments of the Pope's boundlesse Ambition and this most unchristian * §. 33. Nu 6. braine-sick device That in all Controversies of the Faith he is Infallible and that by way of Inspiration and Prophecie in the Conclusion which he gives To the due Consideration of which and God's mercy in Christ I leave you To this Conclusion of the Conference between me and the Iesuite A. C. sayes not much But that which he doth say is either the selfe same which he hath said already or els is quite mistaken in the businesse That which he hath said already is this That in matters A. C. p. 73. of Faith we are to submit our judgements to such Doctors and Pastors as by Visible Continuall Succession without change brought the Faith downe from Christ and his Apostles to these our dayes and shall so carrie it to the end of the world And that this Succession is not found in any other Church differing in Doctrine from the Romane Church Now to this I have given a full Answer a §. 57. Nu. 3 4. already and therefore will not trouble the Reader with needlesse and troublesome repetition Then he brings certaine places of Scripture to prove the Pope's Infallibility But to all these places I have likewise answered b §. 25. Nu. 5. before And therefore A. C. needed not to repeat them againe as if they had been unanswerable One Place of Scripture onely A. C. had not urged before either for proofe of this Continued Visible Succession or for the Pope's Infallibility Nor doth A. C. distinctly A. C. p. 73. set down by which of the two hee will prove it The Place is c Epheâ—… 4. 11. Ephes. 4. Christ ascending gave some to be Apostles some Prophets some Euangelists some Pastors and Teachers c. for the edification of the Church Now if he do mean to prove the Pope's Infallibility by this place in his Pastorall Iudgement Truly I doe not see how this can possibly be Collected thence d Pontificatus Summus disertè positus est ab Apostolo in illis verbis Eph. 4. 11. in illis clarioribus 1. Cor. 12. 28. Ipse posuit in Ecclesia primùm Apostolos c. Bellar. L. 1. de Ro. Pont. c. 1. §. Respondeo Pontificatum And he gives an excellent reason for it Siquidem summa potestas Ecclesiastica non solùm data est Petro sedetiam aliis Apostolis Ibid. So belike by this Reason the Apostle doth clearely expresse the Popedome because all the rest of the Apostles had as much Ecclesiasticall Power as S. Peter had But then Bellarmine would salve it up with this That this Power is given Petro ut Ordinarie Pastori cui succederetur aliis verò tanquam Delegatis quibus non succederetur Ibid. but this is meere Begging of the Question and will never be granted unto him And in the meane time we have his absolute Confession for the other That the Supreme Ecclesiasticall Power was not in S. Peter alone but in all the Apostles Christ gave some to be Apostles for the Edification of his Church Therefore S. Peter and all his Successours are infallible in their Pastorall Iudgment And if he meane to prove the Continued Visible Succession which he saith is to he found in no Church but the Romane there 's a little more shew but to no more purpose A little more shew Because it is added †Eph. 4. 13. verse 13. That the Apostles and Prophets c. shall continue at their worke and that must needs be by succession till we all meet in Vnity and perfection of Christ. But to no more purpose For t is not said that they or their Successors should Continue at this their worke in a Personall uninterrupted Succession in any one Particular Church Romane or other Nor ever will A. C. bee able to proove that such a Succession is necessary in any one particular place And if he could yet his owne words tell us the Personall Succession is nothing if the Faith be not brought downe without change from Christ and his Apostles to this day and so to the end of the world Now here 's a peece of cunning too The Faith A. C. p. 73. brought down unchanged For if A. C. meane by the Faith the Creed and that in Letter 't is true the Church of Rome hath received and brought downe the Faith unchanged from Christ and his Apostles to these our dayes But then t is apparently false That no Church differing from the Romane in Doctrine hath kept that Faith unchanged and that by a visible and continued Succession For the Greek Church differs from the Romane in Doctrine and yet hath so kept that Faith unchanged But if he meane by the Faith unchanged and yet brought down in a continuall visible Succession not only the Creed in Letter but in Sense