which is a Person indued with Authority universal to govern all Christian men on Earth no more than there is one Universal Soveraign Prince or State on Earth that hath right to govern all Mankind I deny also that the whole Clergy of a Christian Kingdom or State being assembled are the representative of that Church further than the Civil Laws permits or can lawfully assemble themselves unless by the command or by the leave of the Soveraign Civil Power I say further that the denyal of this point tendeth in England towards the taking away of the Kings Supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical But his Lordship has not here denyed any thing of mine because he has done no more but set down my words He says further that this Doctrine destroyes the Authority of all General Councils which I confess Nor hath any General Council at this day in this Kingdom the force of a Law nor ever had but by the Authority of the King J. D. Neither is he more Orthodox concerning the Holy Scriptures Hitherto that is for the Books of Moses the power of making the Scripture Canonical was in the Civil Soveraign The like he saith of the Old Testament made Canonical by Esdras And of the New Testament That it was not the Apostles which made their own Writings Canonical but every Convert made them so to himself Yet with this restriction That until the Soveraign Ruler had prescribed them they were but Counsel and Advice which whether good or bad he that was counselled might without injustice refuse to observe and being contrary to the Laws established could not without injustice observe He maketh the Primitive Christians to have been in a pretty condition Certainly the Gospel was contrary to the Laws then established But most plainly The word of the Interpreter of the Scripture is the word of God And the same is the Interpreter of the Scripture and the Soveraign Judge of all Doctrines that is the Soveraign Magistrate to whose Authority we must stand no less than to theirs who at first did commend the Scripture to us for the Canon of Faith Thus if Christian Soveraigns of different Communications do clash one with another in their interpretations or misinterpretation of Scripture as they do daily then the word of God is contradictory to it self or that is the word of God in one Common-wealth which is the word of the Devil in another Common-wealth And the same thing may be true and not true at the same time Which is the peculiar priviledge of T.H. to make Contradictories to be true together T. H. There is no doubt but by what Authority the Scripture or any other Writing is made a Law by the same Authority the Scriptures are to be interpreted or else they are made Law in vain But to obey is one thing to believe is another which distinction perhaps his Lordship never heard of To obey is to do or forbear as one is commanded and depends on the Will but to believe depends not on the Will but on the providence and guidance of our hearts that are in the hands of God Almighty Laws only required obedience Belief requires Teachers and Arguments drawn either from Reason or from some thing already believed Where there is no reason for our Belief there is no reason we should believe The reason why men believe is drawn from the Authority of those men whom we have no just cause to mistrust that is of such men to whom no profit accrues by their deceiving us and of such men as never used to lye or else from the Authority of such men whose Promises Threats and Affirmations we have seen confirmed by God with Miracles If it be not from the Kings Authority that the Scripture is Law what other Authority makes it Law Here some man being of his Lordships judgment will perhaps laugh and say 't is the Authority of God that makes them Law I grant that But my question is on what Authority they believe that God is the Author of them Here his Lordship would have been at a Nonplus and turning round would have said the Authority of the Scripture makes good that God is their Author If it be said we are to believe the Scripture upon the Authority of the Universal Church why are not the Books we call Apocrypha the Word of God as well as the rest If this Authority be in the Church of England then it is not any other than the Authority of the Head of the Church which is the King For without the Head the Church is mute the Authority therefore is in the King which is all that I contended for in this point As to the Laws of the Gentiles concerning Religion in the Primitive times of the Church I confess they were contrary to Christian Faith But none of their Laws nor Terrors nor a mans own Will are able to take away Faith though they can compel to an external obedience and though I may blame the Ethnick Princes for compelling men to speak what they thought not yet I absolve not all those that have had the Power in Christian Churches from the same fault For I believe since the time of the first four General Councels there have been more Christians burnt and killed in the Christian Church by Ecclesiastical Authority than by the Heathen Emperors Laws for Religion only without Sedition All that the Bishop does in this Argument is but a heaving at the Kings Supremacy Oh but says he if two Kings interpret a place of Scripture in contrary sences it will follow that both sences are true It does not follow For the interpretation though it be made by just Authority must not therefore always be true If the Doctrine in the one sence be necessary to Salvation then they that hold the other must dye in their sins and be Damned But if the Doctrine in neither sence be necessary to Salvation then all is well except perhaps that they will call one another Atheists and fight about it J. D. All the power vertue use and efficacy which he ascribeth to the Holy Sacraments is to be signs or commemorations As for any sealing or confirming or conferring of Grace he acknowledgeth nothing The same he saith particularly of Baptism Upon which grounds a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace may be called Sacraments as well as Baptism or the holy Eucharist if they be only signs and commemorations of a benefit If he except that Baptism and the Eucharist are of Divine institution But a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace are not He saith truly but nothing to his advantage or purpose seeing he deriveth all the Authority of the Word and Sacraments in respect of Subjects and all our obligation to them from the Authority of the Soveraign Magistrate without which these words repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus are but Counsel no Command And so a Serjeant at Arms his Mace and Baptism proceed both from
Learning there was none erected till that time thoogh it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long time before many more were added to them by the devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy Men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their Friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to Preferment both in Church and Common-wealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect receiv'd was the maintenance of the Popes Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School-Divines who striving to make good many Points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School-Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may perceive that shall consider the Writings of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or any other School-Divine of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admir'd by two sorts of Men otherwise prudent enough the one of which sorts were of those that were already devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admir'd the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent Men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine So that all sorts of People were fully resolv'd that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more than what was due to him B. I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such Authority will have but a hard match of it for want of Men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great Rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Popes quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the 4 th wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it But the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the 8 th could then so utterly extinguish the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First the Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their Lives which the Gentry and Men of good Education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common People which from a long Custom had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly the Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly the Revenue of Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings Hands and by him being disposed of to the most Eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a Nature quick and severe in the punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his Designs Lastly as to Invasion from abroad in case the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre Besides the French and Spanish Forces were employed at that time one against another and though they had been at leisure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniards found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was amongst other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterward did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his anger There was besides a Controversie in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church And because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let that Act of Parliament pass In the Reign of King Edward the 6 th the Doctrine of Luther had taken so great root in England that they threw out also a great many of the Popes new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by Henry the 8 th saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward And so it hath continued till this day excepting the Interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical Men. But though the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of
of the weaker Sex if I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There was exception also taken at a Covent of Friers Capucins in Somerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jesuits also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clerkenwel and in the mean time the principal Secretary Sir Francis Windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuits that had been taken and imprison'd for returning into England after banishment contrary to the Statute which had made it Capital Also the resort of English Catholicks to the Queens Chappel gave them colour to blame the Queen her self not only for that but also for all the favours that had been shewn to the Cotholicks in so much that some of them did not stick to say openly that the King was govern'd by her B. Strange injustice The Queen was a Catholick by profession and therefore could not but endeavour to do the Catholicks all the good she could she had not else been truly that which she professed to be but it seems they meant to force her to Hypocrisie being Hypocrites themselves Can any man think it a crime in a devout Lady of what Sect soever to seek the favour and benediction of that Church whereof she is a Member A. To give the Parliament another colour for their Accusation on foot of the King as to introducing of Popery there was a great Controversie between the Episcopal and Presbyterian Clergy about Free-will The Dispute began first in the Low Countries between Gomar and Armin in the time of King James who foreseeing it might trouble the Church of England did what he could to compose the difference and an Assembly of Divines was thereupon got together at Dort to which also King James sent a Divine or two but it came to nothing the Question was left undecided and became a Subject to be disputed of in the Universities here All the Presbyterians were of the same mind with Gomar but a very great many others not and those were called here Arminians who because the Doctrine of Free-will had been exploded as a Papistical Doctrine and because the Presbyterians were far the greater number and already in favour with the People were generally hated it was easie therefore for the Parliament to make that calumny pass currently with the People when the Arch-bishop of Canterbury Dr. Laud was for Arminius and had a little before by his Power Ecclesiastical forbidden all Ministers to preach to the People of Predestination and when all Ministers that were gratious with him and hoped for any Church-preferment fell to preaching and writing for Free-will to the uttermost of their power as a proof of their ability and merit Besides they gave out some of them that the Arch-bishop was in heart a Papist and in Case he could effect a Toleration here of the Roman Religion was to have a Cardinals Hat which was not only false but also without any ground at all for a suspition B. It is a strang thing that Scholars obscure men that could receive no clarity but from the flame of the State should be suffered to bring their unnecessary Disputes and together with them their quarrels out of the Universities into the Common-wealth and more strange that the State should engage in their Parties and not rather put them both to silence A State can constrain obedience but convince no error nor alter the mind of them that believe they have the better reason Suppression of Doctrines does but unite and exasperate that is increase both the malice and power of them that have already believed them But what are the Points they disagree in Is there any Controversie between Bishop and Presbyterian concerning the Divinity or Humanity of Christ Do either of them deny the Trinity or any Article of the Creed Does either Party preach openly or write directly against Justice Charity Sobriety or any other Duty necessary to Salvation except only the Duty to the King and not that neither but when they have a mind either to rule or destroy the King Lord have mercy upon us Can no body be saved that understands not their Disputations Or is there more requisite either of Faith or Honesty for the Salvation of one man than another What needs so much preaching of Faith to us that are no Heathens and that believe already all that Christ and his Apostles have told us is necessary to salvation and more too Why is there so little preaching of Justice I have indeed heard Righteousness often recommended to the People but I have seldom heard the word Justice in their Sermons nay though in the Latin and Greek Bible the word Justice occur exceeding often yet in the English though it be a word that every man understands the word Righteousness which few understand to signifie the same but take it rather for Rightness of Opinion than of Action or Intention is put in the place of it A. I confess I know very few Controversies amongst Christians of Points necessary to salvation They are the Questions of Authority and Power over the Church or of Profit or of Honour to Church men that for the most part raise all the Controversies For what man is he that will trouble himself and fall-out with his Neighbours for the saving of my Soul or the Soul of any other than himself When the Presbyterian Ministers and others did so furiously preach Sedition and animate Men to Rebellion in these late Wars who was there that had not a Benefice or having one feared not to lose it or some other part of his maintenance by the alteration of the Government that did voluntarily without any eye to reward preach so earnestly against Sedition as the other Party preached for it I confess that for ought I have observed in History and other Writings of the Heathens Greek and Latin that those Heathens were not at all behind us in Point of Vertue and Moral Duties notwithstanding that we have had much preaching and they none at all I confess also that considering what harm may proceed from a liberty that men have upon every Sunday and oftner to Harangue all the People of a Nation at one time whilst the State is ignorant of what they will say and that there is no such thing permitted in all the World out of Christendome nor therefore any Civil Wars about Religion I have thought much preaching an inconvenience nevertheless I cannot think that preaching to the People the Points of their Duty both to God and Man can be too frequent so it be done by grave discreet and ancient Men that are reverenced by the People and not by light quibling young men whom no Congregation is so simple as to look to be taught by
Cromwel after he had gotten into his own hands the absolute power of England Scotland and Ireland by the Name of Protector did never dare to take upon him the Title of King nor was ever able to settle it upon his Children His Officers would not suffer it as pretending after his death to succeed him nor would the Army consent to it because he had ever declared to them against the Government of a single person B. But to return to the King What Means had he to pay What Provision had he to Arm nay Means to Levy an Army able to resist the Army of the Parliament maintained by the great Purse of the City of London and Contributions of almost all the Towns Corporate in England and furnished with Arms as fully as they could require A. 'T is true the King had great disadvantages and yet by little and little he got a considerable Army with which he so prospered as to grow stronger every day and the Parliament weaker till they had gotten the Scotch with an Army of 21000 Men to come into England to their Assistance But to enter into the particular Narration of what was done in the War I have not now time B. Well then we will talk of that at next meeting Behemoth PART III. B. WE left at the Preparations on both sides for War which when I considered by my self I was mightily puzled to find out what possibility there was for the King to equal the Parliament in such a course and what hopes he had of Money Men Arms Fortified places Shipping Councel and Military Officers sufficient for such an Enterprize against the Parliament that had Men and Money as much at command as the City of London and other Corporation Towns were able to furnish which was more than they needed And for the Men they should set forth for Soldiers they were almost all of them spightfully bent against the King and his whole Party whom they took to be either Papists or Flatterers of the King or that had designed to raise their Fortunes by the plunder of the City and other Corporation Towns And though I believe not that they were more valiant than other Men nor that they had so much experience in the War as to be accounted good Soldiers yet they had that in them which in time of Battle is more conducing to Victory than Valor and Experience both together and that was spight And for Arms they had in their hands the Chief Magazines the Tower of London and the Town of Kingston upon Hull besides most of the Powder and Shot that lay in several Towns for the use of the Train'd Bands Fortified places there were not many then in England and most of them in the hands of the Parliament The King's Fleet was wholly in their Command under the Earl of Warwick Councellors they needed no more than such as were of their own Body so that the King was every way inferior to them except it were perhaps in Officers A. I cannot compare their Chief Officers for the Parliament the Earl of Essex after the Parliament had voted the War was made General of all their Forces both in England and Ireland from whom all other Commanders were to receive their Commissions B. What moved them to make General the Earl of Essex And for what cause was the Earl of Essex so displeased with the King as to accept that Office A. I do not certainly know what to answer to either of those Questions but the Earl of Essex had been in the Wars abroad and wanted neither Experience Judgment nor Courage to perform such an undertaking And besides that you have heard I believe how great a Darling of the People his Father had been before him and what Honour he had gotten by the Success of his Enterprize upon Cales and in some other Military Actions To which I may add that this Earl himself was not held by the people to be so great a Favorite at Court as that they might not trust him with their Army against the King And by this you may perhaps conjecture the Cause for which the Parliament made choice of him for General B. But why did they think him discontented with the Court A. I know not that nor indeed that he was so He came to the Court as other Noble-men did when occasion was to wait upon the King but had no Office till a little before this time to oblige him to be there continually but I believe verily that the unfortunateness of his Marriages had so discountenanced his Conversation with Ladies that the Court could not be his proper Element unless he had had some extraordinary favour there to ballance that Calamity but for particular discontent from the King or intention of revenge for any supposed disgrace I think he had none nor that he was any ways addicted to Presbyterian Doctrines or other Fanatick Tenets in Church or State saving only that he was carried away with the Stream in a manner of the whole Nation to think that England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy not considering that the Supream Power must always be absolute whether it be in the King or in the Parliament B. Who was General of the King's Army A. None yet but himself nor indeed had he yet any Army but there coming to him at that time his two Nephews the Princes Rupert and Maurice he put the Command of his Horse into the Hands of Prince Rupert a Man than whom no man living has a better Courage nor was more active and diligent in prosecuting his Commissions and though but a young man then was not without experience in the conducting of Soldiers as having been an Actor in part of his Fathers Wars in Germany B. But how could the King find Money to pay such an Army as was necessary for him against the Parliament A. Neither the King nor Parliament had much Money at that time in their own Hands but were fain to rely upon the Benevolence of those that took their parts Wherein I confess the Parliament had a mighty great advantage Those that helped the King in that kind were only Lords and Gentlemen which not approving the proceedings of the Parliament were willing to undertake the payment every one of a certain number of Horse which cannot be thought any very great assistance the persons that payed them being so few For other Moneys that the King then had I have not heard of any but what he borrowed upon Jewels in the Low Countries Whereas the Parliament had a very plentiful Contribution not only from London but generally from their Faction in all other places of England upon certain Propositions published by the Lords and Commons in June 1642. at what time they had newly voted that the King intended to make War upon them for bringing in of Money or Plate to maintain Horse and Horse-men and to buy Arms for the preservation of the publick Peace and for the defence of the
the same Authority And this he saith upon this silly ground That nothing is a Command the performance whereof tendeth to our own benefit He might as well deny the Ten Commandments to be Commands because they have an advantagious promise annexed to them Do this and thou shalt live And Cursed is every one that continueth not in all the words of this Law to do them T. H. Of the Sacraments I said no more than that they are Signs or Commemorations He finds fault that I add not Seals Confirmations and that they confer grace First I would have asked him if a Seal be any thing else besides a Sign whereby to remember somewhat as that we have promised accepted acknowledged given undertaken somewhat Are not other Signs though without a Seal of force sufficient to convince me or oblige me A Writing obligatory or Release signed only with a mans name is as Obligatory as a Bond signed and sealed if it be sufficiently proved though peradventure it may require a longer Process to obtain a Sentence but his Lordship I think knew better than I do the force of Bonds and Bills yet I know this that in the Court of Heaven there is no such difference between saying signing and sealing as his Lordship seemeth here to pretend I am Baptized for a Commemoration that I have enrolled my self I take the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to Commemorate that Christ's Body was broken and his Blood shed for my redemption What is there more intimated concerning the nature of these Sacraments either in the Scripture or in the Book of Common-Prayer Have Bread and Wine and Water in their own Nature any other Quality than they had before the Consecration It is true that the Consecration gives these bodies a new Relation as being a giving and dedicating of them to God that is to say a making of them Holy not a changing of their Quality But as some silly young men returning from France affect a broken English to be thought perfect in the French language so his Lordship I think to seem a perfect understander of the unintelligible language of the Schoolmen pretends an ignorance of his Mother Tongue He talks here of Command and Counsel as if he were no English man nor knew any difference between their significations What English man when he commandeth says more than Do this yet he looks to be obeyed if obedience be due unto him But when he says Do this and thou shalt have such or such a Reward he encourages him or advises him or Bargains with him but Commands him not Oh the understanding of a Schoolman J. D. Sometimes he is for holy Orders and giveth to the Pastors of the Church the right of Ordination and Absolution and Infallibility too much for a particular Pastor or the Pastors of one particular Church It is manifest that the consecration of the chiefest Doctors in every Church and imposition of hands doth pertain to the Doctors of the same Church And it cannot be doubted of but the power of binding and loosing was given by Christ to the future Pastors after the same manner as to his present Apostles And our Saviour hath promised this infallibility in those things which are necessary to Salvation to his Apostles until the day of Judgment that is to say to the Apostles and Pastors to be Consecrated by the Apostles successively by the imposition of hands But at other times he casteth all this Meal down with his foot Christian Soveraigns are the supream Pastors and the only persons whom Christians now hear speak from God except such as God speaketh to in these dayes supernaturally What is now become of the promised infallibility And it is from the Civil Soveraign that all other Pastors derive their right of teaching preaching and all other functions pertaining to that Office and they are but his Ministers in the same manner as the Magistrates of Towns or Judges in Courts of Justice and Commanders of Armies What is now become of their Ordination Magistrates Judges and Generals need no precedent qualifications He maketh the Pastoral Authority of Soveraigns to be Jure divino of all other Pastors Jure civili He addeth neither is there any Judge of Heresie among Subjects but their own civil Soveraign Lastly the Church Excommunicateth no man but whom she Excommunicateth by the Authority of the Prince And the effect of Excommunication hath nothing in it neither of dammage in this World nor terror upon an Apostate if the Civil Power did persecute or not assist the Church And in the World to come leaves them in no worse estate than those who never believed The dammage rather redoundeth to the Church Neither is the Excommunication of a Christian Subject that obeyeth the Laws of his own Soveraign of any effect Where is now their power of binding and loosing T. H. Here his Lordship condemneth first my too much kindness to the Pastors of the Church as if I ascribed Infallibility to every particular Minister or at least to the Assembly of the Pastors of a particular Church But he mistakes me I never meant to flatter them so much I say only that the Ceremony of Consecration and Imposition of hands belongs to them and that also no otherwise than as given them by the Laws of the Common-wealth The Bishop Consecrates but the King both makes him Bishop and gives him his Authority The Head of the Church not only gives the power of Consecration Dedication and Benediction but may also exercise the Act himself if he please Solomon did it and the Book of Canons says That the King of England has all the Right that any good King of Israel had It might have added that any other King or soveraign Assembly had in their own Dominions I deny That any Pastor or any Assembly of Pastors in any particular Church or all the Churches on earth though united are Infallible Yet I say the Pastors of a Christian Church assembled are in all such points as are necessary to Salvation But about what points are necessary to Salvation he and I differ For I in the 43d chapter of my Leviathan have proved that this Article Jesus is the Christ is the unum necessarium the only Article necessary to Salvation to which his Lordship hath not offered any Objection And he it seems would have necessary to Salvation every Doctrine he himself thought so Doubtless in this Article Jesus is the Christ every Church is infallible for else it were no Church Then he says I overthrow this again by saying that Christian Soveraigns are the Supream Pastors that is Heads of their own Churches That they have their Authority Jure Divino That all other Pastors have it Jure Civili How came any Bishop to have Authority over me but by Letters Patents from the King I remember a Parliament wherein a Bishop who was both a good Preacher and a good Man was blamed for a Book he had a little before Published in maintenance
in defence of the Civil Power that must be punish'd by him whose Rights he defended like Vzza that was slain because he would needs unbidden put forth his Hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said at least by any of the Popes Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to do with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same Case as if a Nation should be cast off by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not be taken so much for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation methinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights that the Pope pretended to in the Kingdoms of other Princes A. First An Exemption of all Priests Friars and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and exaction of Tenths First Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supream Judge concerning Lawfulness of Marriage i. e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognisance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good A Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly A Power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This Power of absolving Subjects of their Obedience as also that other of being Judge of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as is possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and no Man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd Which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that would cast you Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd A. Doubtless he that dies in sin without repentance is damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the Kings Laws either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent You see what follows but to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrines of those Men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion So the different Sects of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresies but in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the salvation of Mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and Dominion over Mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not only Men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the Interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the first year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordain'd That the persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the first four General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the Assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new error that hath not yet been declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declar'd Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself Nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declared a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie and that as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those Points that the first four General Councils have declared Heresie B. The first General Council held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ. The second General Council held at Constantinople declared Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The third Council assembled at Ephesus condemned the
their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in Points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesome to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean the Gunpowder-Treason And upon that account the Papists of England have been looked upon as Men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Popes Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plessis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Popes Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the World and I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendome never perceiv'd it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner But if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the 8 th did Head of the Church within their own respective Dominions but not agreeing they let his power continue every one hoping to make use of it when there should be cause against his Neighbour B. Now as to that other distemper by Presbyterians how came their power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and the Reformed Churches could not choose but make every man to the best of his power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas before the Translation of them was not allowed nor any Man to read them but such as had express licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain number of Chapters a day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every Man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so What other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions Else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me seal'd up in Hebrew Greek and Latin and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches Peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late Kings Reign and did then appear to the disturbance of the Common-wealth But to return to the Story those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was profess'd and governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better States-men in Points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass Also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but they were defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not only the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market-Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church-Government Canons and Common-Prayer-Book so did the other make them in love with Democracy by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourses and Communication with People in the Country continually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyranny leaving the People to collect of themselves that this Tyranny was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Queen Elizabeth And though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief Leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less learned and the Gentlemen envying the Privy-Council whom they thought less wise than themselves For 't is a hard matter for Men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any ability requisite for the Government of a Common-wealth especially having read the glorious Histories and the sententious Politiques of the ancient popular Governments of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular
Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the Name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth did not because they durst not publickly preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad preaching into most of the Market-Towns of England as the preaching Friars had formerly done upon working days in the Morning in which Sermons these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the manner and matter of their preaching applyed themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a liking of their Doctrines and good opinion of their persons And first for the manner of their preaching they so framed their countenance and gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their pronuntiation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragoedian in the World could have acted the part of a right godly Man better than these did in so much as a Man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any ambitious plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had design'd or doubt that the vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual pronuntiation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the Service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of Men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working-days leaving their Calling and on Sundays leaving their own Churches to hear them preach in other places and to despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not so well as they and as for those Ministers that did not usually preach but in stead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gratious with them than to preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther from Popery than they did they might with glory to themselves leave a suspicion on the Bishops as Men not yet well purged from Idolatry Thirdly Before their Sâ—â—â—ons their Prayer was or seem'd to be extempore which they pretended to be dictated by the Spirit of God within them and many of the People believed or seemed to believe it for any man might see that had judgment that they did not take care before-hand what they should say in their Prayers And from hence came a dislike of the Common Prayer-Book which is a set form premeditated that Men might see to what they were to say Amen Fourthly They did never in their Sermons or but lightly inveigh against the Lucrative vices of Men of Trade or Handicraft such as are Feigning Lying Cozening Hypocrisie or other uncharitableness except want of Charity to their Pastors and to the Faithful which was a great ease to the generality of Citizens and the Inhabitants of Market Towns and no little profit to themselves Fifthly By preaching up an Opinion that Men were to be assured of their Salvation by the Testimony of their own private Spirit meaning the Holy Ghost dwelling within them And from this Opinion the People that found in themselves a sufficient hatred towards the Papists and an ability to repeat the Sermons of these Men at their coming home made no doubt but that they had all that was necessary how fraudulently and spightfully soever they behaved themselves to their Neighbours that were not reckoned amongst the Saints and sometimes to those also Sixthly They did indeed with great earnestness and severity inveigh often against two sins Carnal Lusts and Vain Swearing which without question was very well done but the common People were thereby inclin'd to believe that nothing else was sin but that which was forbidden in the Third and Seventh Commandment for few Men do understand by the name of Lust any other concupiscence than that which is forbidden in that Seventh Commandment for Men are not ordinarily said to lust after another Man's Cattle or other Goods or Possessions and therefore never made much scruple of the Acts of fraud and malice but endeavoured to keep themselves from uncleanness only or at least from the scandal of it And whereas they did both in their Sermons and Writings maintain and inculcate that the very first motions of the mind that is to say the delight Men and Women took in the sight of one another's Form though they checked the proceeding thereof so that it never grew up to be a design was nevertheless a sin they brought young men into desperation and to think themselves damn'd because they could not which no Man can and is contrary to the constitution of Nature behold a delightful Object without delight and by this means they became Confessors to such as were thus troubled in Conscience and were obeyed by them as their Spiritual Doctors in all Cases of Conscience B. Yes divers of them did preach frequently against oppression A. 'T is true I had forgot that but it was before such as were free enough from it I mean the common People who would easily believe themselves oppressed but never Oppressors And therefore you may reckon this amongst their Artifices to make the People believe they were oppressed by the King or perhaps by the Bishops or both and incline the meaner sort to their Party afterward when there should be occasion But this was but sparingly done in the time of Queen Elizabeth whose fear and jealousie they were afraid of Nor had they as yet any great power in the Parliament House whereby to call in question her Prerogative by Petitions of Right and other Devices as they did afterwards when Democratical Gentlemen had receiv'd them into their Councels for the design of changing the Government from Monarchical to Popular which they called Liberty B. Who would think that such horrible designs as these could so easily and so long remain covered with the Cloak of Godliness for that they were most impious Hypocrites is manifest enough by the War these proceedings ended in and by the impious Acts in that War committed But when began first to appear in Parliament the Attempt of Popular Government and by whom A. As to the time of attempting the change of Government from Monarchical to Democratical we must distinguish They did not challenge the Sovereignty in plain terms and by that Name till they had slain the King nor the Rights thereof altogether by particular Heads till the King was driven from London by Tumults raised in that City against him and retir'd for the security of his Person to York where he bad not been many days
are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty to do so They see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon their doing it Every man by nature without discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself from his obedience He reads that Covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is seal'd up in Greek and Latin and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers But they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot choose but by their reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and Quality are followed by their inferior Neighbours that look more upon the Example of those Men whom they reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease than upon Precepts and Laws B. These Men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others These are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places which teach them their Duty fall to scanning only of the Mysteries of Religion such as are How it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but One How the Deity could be made Flesh How that Flesh could be really present in many places at once Where 's the Place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines Whether the Will of Man be free or governed by the Will of God Whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education By whom Christ now speaks to us Whether by the King or by the Clergy or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like Points are the study of the Curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of Men whom the Scripture had taught belief in Christ Love towards God Obedience to the King and sobriety of behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scripture to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their Interpretation for the Word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know is so easie as not to need Interpretation Whatsoever is more does them no good But in case any of those unnecessary Doctrines shall be authorized by the Laws of the King or other State I say it is the Duty of every Subject not to speak against them in as much as it is every man's Duty to obey Him or Them that have the Sovereign Power and the Wisdom of all such Powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to Sedition or Disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had their breeding in the Universities for such curious Questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those Politick Questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastick Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the Works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their Disputation against the necessary Power of their Sovereigns Therefore I despair of any lasting Peace amongst our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their Studies to the setling of it that is to the teaching of absolute Obedience to the Laws of the King and to his Publick Edicts under the Great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid Reason back'd with the Authority of so many Learned Men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any Victory can do over the Rebels but I am afraid that 't is impossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business A. Seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all Points for the King's Power presently after that King Henry the 8 th was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are governed and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferior Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their Spiritual Power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by a successive Imposition of Hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the Hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off For though they were content that the Divine Right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nouns and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters
seconded by Prince Rupert who was then abroad in that Countrey carried the Place These were the chief Actions of this year 1642. wherein the King's Party had not much the worse B. But the Parliament had now a better Army in so much that if the Earl of Essex had immediately followed the King to Oxford not yet well fortified he might in all likelihood have taken it for he could not want either Men or Ammunition whereof the City of London which was wholly at the Parliaments Devotion had store enough A. I cannot judge of that but this is manifest considering the estate the King was in at his first marching from York when he had neither Money nor Men nor Arms enough to put them in hope of Victory that this year take it all together was very prosperous B. But what great folly or wickedness do you observe in the Parliaments Actions for this first year A. All that can be said against them in that Point will be excused with the pretext of War and come under one name of Rebellion saving that when they summoned any Town it was always in the name of King and Parliament the King being in the contrary Army and many times beating them from the Siege I do not see how the right of War can justifie such Impudence as that But they pretended that the King was always virtually in the two Houses of Parliament making a distinction between his Person Natural and Politick which made the Impudence the greater besides the folly of it for this was but an University quibble such as Boys make use of in maintaining in the Schools such Tenents as they cannot otherwise defend In the end of this year they solicited also the Scots to enter England with an Army to suppress the Power of the Earl of New-Castle in the North which was a plain Confession that the Parliaments Forces were at this time inferior to the King 's and most men thought that if the Earl of New-Castle had then marched Southward and joyned his Forces with the King 's that most of the Members of Parliament would have fled out of England In the beginning of 1643. the Parliament seeing the Earl of New Castle 's Power in the North grown so formidable sent to the Scots to hire them to an Invasion of England and to complement them in the mean time made a Covenant amongst themselves such as the Scots had before taken against Episcopacy and demolished Crosses and Church windows such as had in them any Images of Saints throughout all England Also in the middle of the year they made a solemn League with the Nation which was called the Solemn League and Covenant B. Are not the Scots as properly to be called Forreigners as the Irish Seeing then they persecuted the Earl of Strafford even to death for advising the King to make use of Irish Forces against the Parliament with what face could they call in a Scoth Army against the King A. The King's Party might easily here have discerned their Design to make themselves absolute Masters of the Kingdom and to dethrone the King Another great Impudence or rather a bestial incivility it was of theirs that they voted the Queen a Traitor for helping the King with some Ammunition and English Forces from Holland B. Was it possible that all this could be done and men not see that Papers and Declarations must be useless and that nothing could satisfie them but the deposing of the King and setting up of themselves in his place A. Yes very possible For who was there of them though knowing that the King had the Sovereign Power that knew the Essential Rights of Sovereignty They dreamt of a mixt Power of the King and the two Houses That it was a divided Power in which there could be no peace was above their understanding Therefore they were always urging the King to Declarations and Treaties for fear of subjecting themselves to the King in an absolute obedience which increased the hope and courage of the Rebels but did the King little good for the People either understand not or will not trouble themselves with Controversies in writing but rather by his Compliance and Messages go away with an opinion that the Parliament was likely to have the Victory in the War Besides seeing the Penners and Contrivers of these Papers were formerly Members of the Parliament and of another mind and now revolted from the Parliament because they could not bear that sway in the House which they expected men were apt to think they believed not what they writ As for Military Actions to begin at the Head Quarters Prince Rupert took Brimingiam a Garrison of the Parliaments In July after the King's Forces had a great Victory over the Parliaments near Devizes on Roundway-down where they took 2000 Prisoners four Brass Pieces of Ordnance 28 Colours and all their Baggage and shortly after Bristol was surrendred to Prince Rupert for the King and the King himself marching into the West took from the Parliament many other considerable places But this good fortune was not a little allayed by his besieging of Glocester which after it was reduced to the last gasp was relieved by the Earl of Essex whose Army was before greatly wasted but now suddenly recruited with the Train'd-Bands and Apprentices of London B. It seems not only by this but also by many Examples in History that there can hardly arise a long or dangerous Rebellion that has not some such overgrown City with an Army or two in its belly to foment it A. Nay more those great Capital Cities when Rebellion is upon pretence of Grievances must needs be of the Rebel-party because the Grievances are but Taxes to which Citizens that is Merchants whose profession is their private gain are naturally mortal Enemies their only glory being to grow excessively rich by the wisdom of buying and selling B. But they are said to be of all Callings the most beneficial to the Common-wealth by setting the poorer sort of People on work A. That is to say by making poor People sell their labour to them at their own prizes so that poor People for the most part might get a better Living by working in Bridewel than by spinning weaving and other such labour as they can do saving that by working slightly they may help themselves a little to the disgrace of our Manufacture And as most commonly they are the first Encouragers of Rebellion presuming of their strength so also are they for the most part the first to repent deceived by them that command their strength But to return to the War though the King withdrew from Glocester yet it was not to fly from but to fight with the Earl of Essex which presently after he did at Newbury where the Battle was bloody and the King had not the worst unless Cirencester be put into the Scale which the Earl of Essex had in his way a few days before surprized But in the North and the
Commission from the present King hoping to do him as good Service as he had formerly done his Father but the Case was altered for the Scotch Forces were then in England in the Service of the Parliament whereas now they were in Scotland and many more for their intended Invasion newly raised Besides the Soldiers which the Marquess brought over were few and Forreigners nor did the Highlanders come in to him as he expected in so much as he was soon defeated and shortly after taken and with more spightful usage than revenge requir'd executed by the Covenanters at Edenburgh May 2. B. What good could the King expect from joyning with these men who during the Treaty discovered so much malice to him in one of his best Servants A. No doubt their Church-men being then prevalent they would have done as much to this King as the English Parliament had done to his Father if they could have gotten by it that which they foolishly aspir'd to the Government of the Nation I do not believe that the Independents were worse than the Presbyterians both the one and the other were resolv'd to destroy whatsoever should stand in the way to their Ambition but necessity made the King pass over both this and many other Indignities from them rather than suffer the pursuit of his Right in England to cool and be little better than extinguished B. Indeed I believe a Kingdom if suffered to become an old Debt will hardly ever be recover'd Besides the King was sure wheresoever the Victory lighted he could lose nothing in the War but Enemies A. About the time of Montrosse his death which was in May Cromwel was yet in Ireland and his work unfinished but finding or by his Friends advertised that his presence in the Expedition now preparing against the Scots would be necessary to his design sent to the Rump to know their pleasure concerning his return but for all that he knew or thought it was not necessary to stay for their Answer but came away and arriv'd at London the sixth of June following and was welcomed by the Rump Now had General Fairfax who was truly what he pretended to be a Presbyterian been so catechis'd by the Presbyterian Ministers here that he refus'd to fight against the Brethren in Scotland nor did the Rump nor Cromwel go about to rectifie his Conscience in that Point and thus Fairfax laying down his Commission Cromwel was now made General of all the Forces in England and Ireland which was another Step to the Sovereign Power B. Where was the King A. In Scotland newly come over He landed in the North and was honourably conducted to Edenburgh though all things were not yet well agreed on between the Scots and him for though he had yielded to as hard Conditions as the late King had yielded to in the Isle of Wight yet they had still somewhat to add till the King enduring no more departed from them towards the North again But they sent Messengers after him to pray him to return but they furnished these Messengers with strength enough to bring him back if he should have refused In fine they agreed but would not suffer either the King or any Royalist to have Command in the Army B. The sum of all is the King was there a Prisoner A. Cromwel from Barwick sends a Declaration to the Scots telling them he had no quarrel against the People of Scotland but against the Malignant Party that had brought in the King to the disturbance of the Peace between the two Nations and that he was willing either by Conference to give and receive satisfaction or to decide the Justice of the Cause by Battle To which the Scots answering declare That they will not prosecute the King's Interest before and without his acknowledgment of the sins of his House and his former ways and satisfaction given to God's People in both Kingdoms Judge by this whether the present King were not in as bad a condition here as his Father was in the hands of the Presbyterians of England B. Presbyterians are every where the same they would fain be absolute Governours of all they converse with and have nothing to plead for it but that where they Reign 't is God that Reigns and no where else but I observe one strange Demand that the King should acknowledge the sins of his House for I thought it had been certainly held by all Divines that no man was bound to acknowledge any man's sins but his own A. The King having yielded to all that the Church requir'd the Scots proceeded in their intended War Cromwel marched on to Edenburgh provoking them all he could to Battle which they declining and Provisions growing scarce in the English Army Cromwel retir'd to Dunbar despairing of success and intending by Sea or Land to get back into England And such was the Condition which this General Cromwel so much magnified for Conduct had brought his Army to that all his Glories had ended in Shame and Punishment if Fortune and the faults of his Enemies had not relieved him For as he retir'd the Scots followed him close all the way till within a Mile of Dunbar There is a ridge of Hills that from beyond Edenburgh goes winding to the Sea and crosses the High-way between Dunbar and Barwick at a Village called Copperspeith where the passage is so difficult that had the Scots sent timely thither a very few men to guard it the English could never have gotten home For the Scots kept the Hills and needed not have fought but upon great advantage and were almost two to one Cromwell's Army was at the foot of those Hills on the North side and there was a great Ditch or Channel of a Torrent between the Hills and it so that he could never have got home by Land nor without utter ruine of the Army attempted to Ship it nor have stayed where he was for want of Provisions Now Cromwel knowing the Pass was free and commanding a good Party of Horse and foot to possess it it was necessary for the Scots to let them go whom they bragged they had impounded or else to fight and therefore with the best of their Horse charged the English and made them at first to shrink a little but the English Foot coming on the Scots were put to flight and the flight of the Horse hindered the Foot from engaging who therefore fled as did also the rest of their Horse Thus the folly of the Scottish Commanders brought all their odds to an even Lay between two small and equal Parties wherein Fortune gave the Victory to the English who were not many more in number than those that were killed and taken Prisoners of the Scots and the Church lost their Canon Bag and Baggage with 10000 Arms and almost their whole Army The rest were got together by Lesly to Sterling B. This Victory happened well for the King for had the Scots been Victors the Presbyterians both here and there would
of the Jus Divinum of Bishops a thing which before the Reformation here was never allowed them by the Pope Two Jus Divinums cannot stand together in one Kingdom In the last place he mislikes that the Church should Excommunicate by Authority of the King that is to say by Authority of the Head of the Church But he tells not why He might as well mislike that the Magistrates of the Realm should execute their Offices by the Authority of the Head of the Realm His Lordship was in a great error if he thought such incroachments would add any thing to the Wealth Dignity Reverence or Continuance of his Order They are Pastors of Pastors but yet they are the Sheep of him that is on earth their soveraign Pastor and he again a Sheep of that supream Pastor which is in Heaven And if they did their pastoral Office both by Life and Doctrine as they ought to do there could never arise any dangerous Rebellion in the Land But if the people see once any ambition in their Teachers they will sooner learn that than any other Doctrine and from Ambition proceeds Rebellion J. D. It may be some of T. H. his Disciples desire to know what hopes of Heavenly joyes they have upon their Masters Principles They may hear them without any great contentment There is no mention in Scripture nor ground in reason of the Coelum Empyraeum that is the Heaven of the Blessed where the Saints shall live eternally with God And again I have not found any Text that can probably be drawn to prove any Ascention of the Saints into Heaven that is to say into any Coelum Empyraeum But he concludeth positively that Salvation shall be upon earth when God shall Raign at the coming of Christ in Jerusalem And again In short the Kingdom of God is a civil Kingdom c. called also the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Glory All the Hobbians can hope for is to be restored to the same condition which Adam was in before his fall So saith T.H. himself From whence may be inferred that the Elect after the Resurrection shall be restored to the estate wherein Adam was before he had sinned As for the beatifical vision he defineth it to be a word unintelligible T. H. This Coelum Empyraeum for which he pretendeth so much zeal where is it in the Scripture where in the Book of Common Prayer where in the Canons where in the Homilies of the Church of England or in any part of our Religion What has a Christian to do with such Language Nor do I remember it in Aristotle Perhaps it may be in some Schoolman or Commentator on Aristotle and his Lordship makes it in English the Heaven of the Blessed as if Empyraeum signified That which belongs to the Blessed St. Austin says better that after the day of Judgment all that is not Heaven shall be Hell Then for Beatifical vision how can any man understand it that knows from the Scripture that no man ever saw or can see God Perhaps his Lordship thinks that the happiness of the Life to come is not real but a Vision As for that which I say Lev. pag. 345. I have answered to it already J. D. But considering his other Principles I do not marvel much at his extravagance in this point To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum or Heaven of the Blessed serve in his judgment who maketh the blessed Angels that are the Inhabitants of that happy Mansion to be either Idols of the brain that is in plain English nothing or thin subtil fluid bodies destroying the Angelical nature The universe being the aggregate of all bodies there is no real part thereof that is not also body And elsewhere Every part of the Vniverse is Body and that which is not Body is no part of the Vniverse And because the Vniverse is all that which is no part of it is nothing and consequently no where How By this Doctrine he maketh not only the Angels but God himself to be nothing Neither doth he salve it at all by supposing erroneously Angels to be corporeal Spirits and by attributing the name of incorporeal Spirit to God as being a name of more honour in whom we consider not what Attribute best expresseth his nature which is incomprehensible but what best expresseth our desire to honour him Though we be not able to comprehend perfectly what God is yet we are able perfectly to comprehend what God is not that is he is not imperfect and therefore he is not finite and consequently he is not corporeal This were a trim way to honour God indeed to honour him with a lye If this that he say here be true That every part of the Vniverse is a Body and whatsoever is not a Body is nothing Then by this Doctrine if God be not a Body God is nothing not an incorporeal Spirit but one of the Idols of the Brain a meer nothing though they think they dance under a Net and have the blind of Gods incomprehensibility between them and discovery T. H. This of Incorporeal substance he urged before and there I answered it I wonder he so often rolls the same stone He is like Sysiphus in the Poets Hell that there rolls a heavy stone up a hill which no sooner he brings to day-light then it slips down again to the bottom and serves him so perpetually For so his Lordship rolls this and other questions with much adoe till they come to the light of Scripture and then they vanish and he vexing sweating and railing goes to 't again to as little purpose as before From that I say of the Universe he infers that I make God to be nothing But infers it absurdly He might indeed have inferr'd that I make him a Corporeal but yet a pure Spirit I mean by the Universe the Aggregate of all things that have being in themselves and so do all men else And because God has a being it follows that he is either the whole Universe or part of it Nor does his Lordship go about to disprove it but only seems to wonder at it J. D. To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum serve in his Judgment who denyeth the immortality of the Soul The Doctrine is now and hath been a long time far otherwise namely that every man hath eternity of life by nature in as much as his Soul is immortal Who supposeth that when a man dyeth there remaineth nothing of him but his Carkase who maketh the word Soul in holy Scripture to signifie always either the Life or the Living Creature And expoundeth the casting of Body and Soul into Hell-fire to be the casting of Body and Life into Hell-fire Who maketh this Orthodox truth that the Souls of men are Substances distinct from their Bodies to be an error contracted by the contagion of the Demonology of the Greeks and a window that gives entrance to the dark Doctrine of eternal torments Who expoundeth these words
the Tree of Knowledg of Good and Evil thou shalt dye though he condemned him then yet he suffered him to live a long time after so when Christ had said to the Thief on the Cross this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise yet he suffered him to lye dead till the General Resurrection for no man rose again from the dead before our Saviours coming and conquering death If God bestowed Immortality on every man then when he made him and he made many to whom he never purposed to give his saving Grace what did his Lordship think that God gave any man Immortality with purpose only to make him capable of Immortal Torments 'T is a hard saying and I think cannot piously be believed I am sure it can never be proved by the Canonical Scripture But though I have made it clear that it cannot be drawn by lawful consequence from Scripture that Man was Created with a Soul Immortal and that the Elect only by the Grace of God in Christ shall both Bodies and Souls from the Resurrection forward be Immortal yet there may be a Consequence well drawn from some words in the Rites of Burial that prove the contrary as these Forasmuch as it hath pleased Almighty God of his great mercy to take unto himself the Soul of our dear Brother here departed c. And these Almighty God with whom do live the Spirits of them that depart hence in the Lord. Which are words Authorised by the Church I wonder his Lordship that had so often pronounced them took no notice of them here But it often happens that men think of those things least which they have most perfectly learnt by rote I am sorry I could not without deserting the sence of Scripture and mine own Conscience say the same But I see no just cause yet why the Church should be offended at it For the Church of England pretendeth not as doth the Church of Rome to be above the Scripture nor forbiddeth any man to Read the Scripture nor was I forbidden when I Wrote my Leviathan to Publish any thing which the Scriptures suggested For when I Wrote it I may safely say there was no lawful Church in England that could have maintained me in or prohibited me from Writing any thing There was no Bishop and though there were Preaching such as it was yet no Common-Prayer For Extemporary Prayer though made in the Pulpit is not Common-Prayer There was then no Church in England that any man living was bound to obey What I Write here at this present time I am forced to in my defence not against the Church but against the accusations and arguments of my Adversaries For the Church though it excommunicates for scandalous life and for teaching false Doctrines yet it professeth to impose nothing to be held as Faith but what may be warranted by Scripture and this the Church it self saith in the 20th of the 39 Articles of Religion And therefore I am permitted to alledge Scripture at any time in the defence of my Belief J. D. But they that in one case are grieved in another must be relieved If perchance T. H. hath given his Disciples any discontent in his Doctrine of Heaven and the holy Angels and the glorified Souls of the Saints he will make them amends in his Doctrine of Hell and the Devils and the damned Spirits First of the Devils He fancieth that all those Devils which our Saviour did cast out were Phrensies and all Demoniacks or Persons possessed no other than Mad-men And to justifie our Saviour's speaking to a Disease as to a Person produceth the example of inchanters But he declareth himself most clearly upon this Subject in his Animadversions upon my reply to his defence of fatal destiny There are in the Scripture two sorts of things which are in English translated Devils One is that which is called Satan Diabolus Abaddon which signifieth in English an Enemy an Accuser and a destroyer of the Church of God in which sence the Devils are but wicked men The other sort of Devils are called in the Scripture Daemonia which are the feigned Gods of the Heathen and are neither Bodies nor spiritual Substances but meer fancies and fictions of terrified hearts feigned by the Greeks and other Heathen People which St. Paul calleth Nothings So T.H. hath killed the great infernal Devil and all his black Angels and left no Devils to be feared but Devils Incarnate that is wicked men T. H. As for the first words cited Levi. page 38 39. I refer the Reader to the place it self and for the words concerning Satan I leave them to the judgment of the Learned J. D. And for Hell he describeth the Kingdom of Satan or the Kingdom of darkness to be a confederacy of deceivers He telleth us that the places which set forth the torments of Hell in holy Scripture do design Metaphorically a grief and discontent of mind from the sight of that eternal felicity in others which they themselves through their own incredulity and disobedience have lost As if Metaphorical descriptions did not bear sad truths in them as well as literal as if final desperation were no more than a little fit of grief or discontent and a guilty conscience were no more than a transitory passion as if it were a loss so easily to be born to be deprived for evermore of the beatifical Vision and lastly as if the Damned besides that unspeakable loss did not likewise suffer actual Torments proportionable in some measure to their own sins and Gods Justice T. H. That Metaphors bear sad truths in them I deny not It is a sad thing to lose this present life untimely Is it not therefore much more a sad thing to lose an eternal happy Life And I believe that he which will venture upon sin with such danger will not stick to do the same notwithstanding the Doctrine of eternal torture Is it not also a sad truth that the Kingdom of darkness should be a Confederacy of deceivers J. D. Lastly for the damned Spirits he declareth himself every where that their sufferings are not eternal The Fire shall be unquenchable and the Torments everlasting but it cannot be thence inferred that he who shall be cast into that Fire or be tormented with those Torments shall endure and resist them so as to be eternally burnt and tortured and yet never be destroyed nor dye And though there be many places that affirm everlasting fire into which men may be cast successivily one after another for ever yet I find none that affirm that there shall be an everlasting life therein of any individual Person If he had said and said only that the pains of the Damned may be lessened as to the degree of them or that they endure not for ever but that after they are purged by long torments from their dross and Corruptions as Gold in the fire both the damned Spirits and the Devils themselves should be restored to a better
just disposition of Almighty God this Policy turned to a sin and was the utter destruction of Jeroboam and his Family It is not good jesting with edge-tools nor playing with holy things Where men make their greatest fastness many times they find most danger T. H. His Lordship either had a strange Conscience or understood not English Being at Paris when there was no Bishop nor Church in England and every man writ what he pleased I resolved when it should please God to restore the Authority Ecclesiastical to submit to that Authority in whatsoever it should determine This his Lordship construes for a temporizing and too much indifferency in Religion and says further that the last part of my words do smell of Jeroboam To the contrary I say my words were modest and such as in duty I ought to use And I profess still that whatsoever the Church of England the Church I say not every Doctor shall forbid me to say in matter of Faith I shall abstain from saying it excepting this point That Jesus Christ the Son of God dyed for my sins As for other Doctrins I think it unlawful if the Church define them for any Member of the Church to contradict them J. D. His sixth Paradox is a rapper the Civil Laws are the Rules of good and evil just and unjust honest and dishonest and therefore what the Lawgiver commands that is to be accounted good what he forbids bad And a little after before Empires were just and unjust were not as whose nature is Relative to a Command every action in its own nature is indifferent That it is just or unjust proceedeth from the right of him that commandeth Therefore lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them To this add his definition of a sin that which one doth or omitteth saith or willeth contrary to the reason of the Common-wealth that is the Civil Laws Where by the Laws he doth not understand the Written Laws elected and approved by the whole Common-wealth but the verbal Commands or Mandates of him that hath the Soveraign Power as we find in many places of his Writings The Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that is endowed with Soveraign Power in the Common-wealth concerning the future actions of his Subjects And the Civil Laws are fastned to the Lips of that man who hath the Soveraign Power Where are we In Europe or in Asia Where they ascribed a Divinity to their Kings and to use his own Phrase made them Mortal Gods O King live for ever Flatterers are the common Moths of great Pallaces where Alexander's friends are more numerous than the King's friends But such gross palpable pernicious flattery as this is I did never meet with so derogatory both to piety and policy What deserved he who should do his uttermost endeavour to poyson a common Fountain whereof all the Common-wealth must drink He doth the same who poisoneth the mind of a Soveraign Prince Are the Civil Laws the Rules of good and bad just and unjust honest and dishonest And what I pray your are the Rules of the Civil Law it self Even the Law of God and Nature If the Civil Laws swerve from these more authentick Laws they are Lesbian Rules What the Lawgiver commands is to be accounted good what he forbids bad This was just the garb of the Athenian Sophisters as they are described by Plato Whatsoever pleased the great Beast the Multitude they call holy and just and good And whatsoever the great Beast disliked they called evil unjust prophane But he is not yet arrived at the height of his flattery Lawful Kings make those things which they command just by commanding them At other times when he is in his right wits he talketh of sufferings and expecting their reward in Heaven And going to Christ by Martyrdome And if he had the fortitude to suffer death he should do better But I fear all this was but said in jest How should they expect their reward in Heaven if his Doctrine be true that there is no reward in Heaven Or how should they be Martyrs if his Doctrine be true that none can be Martyrs but those who conversed with Christ upon earth He addeth Before Empires were just and unjust were not Nothing could be written more false in his sence more dishonourable to God more inglorious to the humane nature That God should create Man and leave him presently without any Rules to his own ordering of himself as the Ostridg leaveth her Eggs in the sand But in truth there have been Empires in the World ever since Adam And Adam had a Law written in his heart by the finger of God before there was any Civil Law Thus they do endeavour to make goodness and justice and honesty and conscience and God himself to be empty names without any reality which signifie nothing further than they conduce to a man's interest Otherwise he would not he could not say That every action as it is invested with its circumstances is indifferent in its own nature T. H. My sixth Paradox he calls a Rapper A Rapper a Swapper and such like terms are his Lordships elegancies But let us see what this Rapper is 'T is this The Civil Laws are the Rules of Good and Evil Just and Unjust Honest and Dishonest Truly I see no other Rules they have The Scriptures themselves were made Law to us here by the Authority of the Common-wealth and are therefore part of the Law Civil If they were Laws in their own nature then were they Laws over all the World and men were obliged to obey them in America as soon as they should be shown there though without a Miracle by a Frier What is Injust but the Transgression of a Law Law therefore was before Unjust And the Law was made known by Soveraign Power before it was a Law Therefore Soveraign Power was antecedent both to Law and Injustice Who then made Injust but Soveraign Kings or Soveraign Assemblies Where is now the wonder of this Rapper That Lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them Just and Unjust were surely made if the King made them not who made them else For certainly the breach of a Civil Law is a sin against God Another Calumny which he would fix upon me is That I make the King 's verbal Commands to be Laws How so Because I say the Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that hath the Soveraign Power concerning the future Actions of his Subjects What verbal Command of a King can arrive at the ears of all his Subjects which it must do ere it be a Law without the Seal of the Person of the Common-wealth which is here the Great Seal of England Who but his Lordship ever denyed that the command of England was a Law to English
General Councils the Power of the Roman Church grew up a pace and either by the negligence or weakness of the succeeding Emperors the Pope did what he pleased in Religion There was no Doctrine which tended to the Power Ecclesiastical or to the Reverence of the Clergy the contradiction whereof was not by one Council or another made Heresie and punished arbitrarily by the Emperors with Banishment or Death And at last Kings themselves and Commonwealths unless they purged their Dominions of Hereticks were Excommunicated Interdicted and their Subjects let loose upon them by the Pope insomuch as to an ingenuous and serious Christian there was nothing so dangerous as to enquire concerning his own Salvation of the Holy Scripture the careless cold Christian was safe and the skilful Hypocrite a Saint But this is a Story so well known as I need not insist upon it any longer but proceed to the Hereticks here in England and what Punishments were ordained for them by Acts of Parliament All this while the Penal Laws against Hereticks were such as the several Princes and States in their own Dominions thought fit to enact The Edicts of the Emperors made their Punishments Capital but for the manner of the Execution left it to the Prefects of Provinces And when other Kings and States intended according to the Laws of the Roman Church to extirpate Hereticks they ordained such Punishment as they pleased The first Law that was here made for the punishments of Hereticks called Lollards and mentioned in the Statutes was in the fifth year of the Reign of Richard the Second occasioned by the Doctrine of John Wickliff and his Followers which Wickliff because no Law was yet ordained for his punishment in Parliament by the favour of John of Gaunt the King's Son during the Reign of Edward the third had escaped But in the fifth year of the next King which was Richard the Second there passed an Act of Parliament to this effect That Sheriffs and some others should have Commissions to apprehend such as were certified by the Prelates to be Preachers of Heresie their Fautors Maintainers and Abettors and to hold them in strong Prison till they should justifie themselves according to the Law of Holy Church So that hitherto there was no Law in England by which a Heretick could be put to Death or otherways punished than by imprisoning him till he was reconciled to the Church After this in the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fourth Son of John of Gaunt by whom Wickliffe had been favoured and who in his aspiring to the Crown had needed the good Will of the Bishops was made a Law in the second Year of his Reign wherein it was Enacted That every Ordinary may convene before him and imprison any person suspected of Heresie and that an obstinate Heretick shall be burnt before the People In the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fifth in his Second year was made an Act of Parliament wherein it is declared that the intent of Hereticks called Lollards was to subvert the Christian Faith the Law of God the Church and the Realm And that an Heretick convict should forfeit all his Fee-simple Lands Goods and Chattels besides the Punishment of Burning Again in the Five and Twentieth year of King Henry the Eighth it was Enacted That an Heretick convict shall abjure his Heresies and refusing so to do or relapsing shall be burnt in open place for example of others This Act was made after the putting down of the Pope's Authority And by this it appears that King Henry the Eighth intended no farther alteration in Religion than the recovering of his own Right Ecclesiastical But in the first year of his Son King Edward the sixth was made an Act by which were repealed not only this Act but also all former Acts concerning Doctrines or matters of Religion So that at this time there was no Law at all for the punishment of Hereticks Again in the Parliament of the first and second year of Queen Mary this Act of 1 Ed. 6. was not repealed but made useless by reviving the Statute of 25 Hen. 8. and freely put it in execution insomuch as it was Debated Whether or no they should proceed upon that Statute against the Lady Elizabeth the Queens Sister The Lady Elizabeth not long after by the Death of Queen Mary coming to the Crown in the fifth year of her Reign by Act of Parliament repealed in the first place all the Laws Ecclesiastical of Queen Mary with all other former Laws concerning the punishments of Hereticks nor did she enact any other punishments in their place In the second place it was Enacted That the Queen by her Letters Patents should give a Commission to the Bishops with certain other persons in her Majesties Name to execute the Power Ecclesiastical in which Commission the Commissioners were forbidden to adjudge any thing to be Heresie which was not declared to be Heresie by some of the first four General Councels But there was no mention made of General Councels but only in that branch of the Act which Authorised that Commission commonly called The High Commission nor was there in that Commission any thing concerning how Hereticks were to be punished but it was granted to them that they might declare or not declare as they pleased to be Heresie or not Heresie any of those Doctrines which had been Condemned for Heresie in the first four General Councels So that during the time that the said High Commission was in being there was no Statute by which a Heretick could be punished otherways than by the ordinary Censures of the Church nor Doctrine accounted Heresie unless the Commissioners had actually declared and published That all that which was made Heresie by those Four Councels should be Heresie also now But I never heard that any such Declaration was made either by Proclamation or by Recording it in Churches or by publick Printing as in penal Laws is necessary the breaches of it are excused by ignorance Besides if Heresie had been made Capital or otherwise civilly punishable either the Four General Councels themselves or at least the Points condemned in them ought to have been Printed or put into Parish Churches in English because without it no man could know how to beware of offending against them Some men may perhaps ask whether no body were Condemned and Burnt for Heresie during the time of the High Commission I have heard there were But they which approve such executions may peradventure know better grounds for them than I do but those grounds are very well worthy to be enquired after Lastly in the seventeenth year of the Reign of King Charles the First shortly after that the Scots had Rebelliously put down the Episcopal Government in Scotland the Presbyterians of England endeavoured the same here The King though he saw the Rebels ready to take the Field would not condescend to that but yet in hope to appease them was content to pass an
had in their sleep or in an extasie which in every true Prophet were Supernatural but in false Prophets were either natural or feigned and more likely to be false than true To say God hath spoken to him in a Dream is no more than to say he dreamed that God spake to him c. To say he hath seen a Vision or heard a Voice is to say That he hath dreamed between sleeping and waking So St. Peter's Holy Ghost is come to be their own imaginations which might be either feigned or mistaken or true As if the Holy Ghost did enter only at their eyes and at their ears not into their understandings nor into their minds Or as if the Holy Ghost did not seal unto their hearts the truth and assurance of their Prophesies Whether a new light be infused into their understandings or new graces be inspired into their heart they are wrought or caused or created immediately by the Holy Ghost And so are his imaginations if they be Supernatural T. H. For the places of my Leviathan he cites they are all as they stand both true and clearly proved the setting of them down by Fragments is no Refutation nor offers he any Argument against them His consequences are not deduced I never said that the Holy Ghost was an Imagination or a Dream or a Vision but that the Holy Ghost spake most often in the Scripture by Dreams and Visions supernatural The next words of his As if the Holy Ghost did enter only at their eyes and at their ears not into their understandings nor into their minds I let pass because I cannot understand them His last words Whether new light c. I understand and approve J. D. But he must needs fall into these absurdities who maketh but a jest of inspiration They who pretend Divine inspiration to be a supernatural entring of the Holy Ghost into a Man are as he thinks in a very dangerous Dilemma for if they worship not the Men whom they conceive to be inspired they fall into impiety and if they worship them they commit Idolatry So mistaking the Holy Ghost to be corporeal some thing that is blown into a Man and the Graces of the Holy Ghost to be corporeal Graces And the words inpoured or infused virtue and inblown or inspired virtue are as absurd and insignificant as a round Quadrangle He reckons it as a common error That faith and sanctity are not attained by study and reason but by supernatural inspiration or infusion And layeth this for a firm ground Faith and Sanctity are indeed not very frequent but yet they are not Miracles but brought to pass by Education Discipline Correction and other natural wayes I would see the greatest Pelagian of them all fly higher T. H. I make here no jest of Inspiration Seriously I say that in the proper signification of the words Inspiration and Infusion to say virtue is inspired or infused is as absurd as to say a Quadrangle is round But Metaphorically for Gods bestowing of Faith Grace or other Vertue those words are intelligible enough J. D. Why should he trouble himself about the Holy Spirit who acknowledgeth no Spirit but either a subtil fluid body or a Ghost or other Idol or Phantasm of the imagination who knoweth no inward Grace or intrinsecal Holyness Holy is a word which in Gods Kingdom answereth to that which men in their Kingdoms use to call publick or the Kings And again wheresoever the word Holy is taken properly there is still some thing signified of propriety gotten by consent His Holiness is a Relation not a Quality for inward sanctification or real infused holiness in respect whereof the third Person is called the Holy Ghost because he is not only holy in himself but also maketh us holy he is so great a stranger to it that he doth altogether deny it and disclaim it T. H. The word Holy I had defined in the words which his Lordship here sets down and by the use thereof in the Scripture made it manifest That that was the true signification of the word There is nothing in Learning more difficult than to determine the signification of words That difficulty excuses him He says that Holiness in my sence is a Relation not a Quality All the Learned agree that Quality is an Accident so that in attributing to God Holiness as a Quality he contradicts himself for he has in the beginning of this his discourse denyed and rightly that any Accident is in God saying whatsoever is in God is the Divine Substance He affirms also that to attribute any Accident to God is to deny the simplicity of the Divine Substance And thus his Lordship makes God as I do a Corporeal Spirit Both here and throughout he discovers so much ignorance as had he charged me with error only and not with Atheism I should not have thought it necessary to answer him J. D. We are taught in our Creed to believe the Catholick or Universal Church But T. H. teacheth us the contrary That if there be more Christian Churches than one all of them together are not one Church personally And more plainly Now if the whole number of Christians be not contained in one Common-wealth they are not one Person nor is there an Vniversal Church that hath any Authority over them And again The Vniversal Church is not one Person of which it can be said that it hath done or Decreed or Ordained or Excommunicated or Absolved This doth quite overthrow all the Authority of General Councils All other Men distinguish between the Church and the Common-wealth only T. H. maketh them to be one and the same thing The Common-wealth of Christian men and the Church of the same are altogether the same thing called by two names for two reasons For the matter of the Church and of the Common-wealth is the same namely the same Christian men and the Form is the same which consisteth in the lawful power of convocating them And hence he concludeth That every Christian Common-wealth is a Church endowed with all spiritual Authority And yet more fully The Church if it be one Person is the same thing with the Common-wealth of Christians called a Common-wealth because it consisteth of men united in one Person their Soveraign And a Church because it consisteth in Christian men united in one Christian Soveraign Upon which account there was no Christian Church in these Parts of the World for some hundreds of years after Christ because there was no Christian Soveraign T. A. For answer to this Period I say only this That taking the Church as I do in all those places for a company of Christian men on Earth incorporated into one Person that can speak command or do any act of a Person all that he citeth out of what I have written is true and that all private Conventicles though their belief be right are not properly called Churches and that there is not any one Universal Church here on Earth