without Progenitors successors without à Pedegree New Teachers without commâ—ssion Protestants indeed but without Principles 15. Hence I argue and it is à demonstration against Sectaries If neither Church nor Councils nor Pastors nor Doctors nor any Orthodox Christians in forgoing Ages euer owned or so much as heard of Protestancy before one vnfortunate Fatherles Luther broached it If no Antiquity so much as once mentioned one Professor of that Religion if no Tradition handed to Luther the new Faith he taught all which is without dispute manifest Protestancy most enidently is vpon this very account both an Vnwitnessed and an Vnprincipled Religion And not only improbable but in the highest degree improbable But no Authority can release an vnprincipled Nouelty from its own intrinsick miserable and â—ssâ—ntial state of improbability Therefore our Sectaries votes of no weight at all cannot make it probable And thus Controuersies are ended because an improbable Religion And for this reason improbable because vnprincipled is not defensible 16. To add more to this Discourse I Ask whether one Arius opposing the whole Church represented in the Nicene Council Protestancy as improbable as Arianism defended probable Doctrin or no You will answer No. Very good Yet he quoted Scripture and might one insist vpon the exteriour letter or sound of words more plain and express in the behalf of his Heresy than all the Protestants on earth can produce Fathers plain and Expresss for their Nouelty of Protestanism I would say Neither Theoderet nor any other Father speak's half so clearly to the Doctrin of No Transubstantiation No Sacrifice of the Mass c. As these words to omit others My Father is greater then I may the exteriour letter regulate here seemingly express an inequality between the Father and the Son Now if the seeming clear sound of Scripture made not Arius his Doctrin probable against the Church Then much less can the more obscure Testimonies of some Fathers make the Doctrin of Protestants probable against the Church Now. And if we speak of followers that Arius gained in his time There is no comparison He had more than euer England had Protestants in it 17. One may yet reply The Nicene Fathers cited plain Scripture against Arius Very true And so do Catholicks against Protestants For Christs Sacred words This is my body are as significantly plain against Protestanism as any Text those Fathers then vrged or yet can be vrged against Arianism The Arians not Conuinced by Scripture only But this you see did not the deed nor was then the last conuiction And why Here is the reason Because as Protestants now wilfully Gloss this plain Passage of Scripture and many others So the Arians then wilfully Glossed all those Scriptures alleged by the Nicene Fathers And yet hold on in that strain to our very dayes as you may read in Crellius and Volkâ—lius Yet more As the Arian Party then only Glossed but without the help of any antecedent Church Doctrin known to the world or vniuersal Tradition to settle their Glosses on So our Protestants now do the very same There is no disparity betwixt them They Gloss 't is true but giue vs Churchles Glosses Finally as those Fathers at that time did not only reiect the Arians Glosses but established also their own Definitions vpon Scripture How Conuicted interpreted by the known deliuered Doctrin of the then present and the more Ancient Church for they represented both And thus ended that Controuersy So we Catholicks proceed against Protestants And bring all debates to the like last period The Church or nothing must end them Without recourse had to the known and owned Doctrin both of this present and precedent faithful Oracle They and we may interpret Scripture long enough They may Cauil And we may hold on in our Answers to the end of an other Age without hope of ending so much as one Controuersy But of This enough is said already CHAP. XX. A word to one or two Obiections It is further proued That Controuersies are ended with Protestants who haue no Essence of Religion but false opinions only 1. SEctaries may obiect first We Suppose all this while But proue not The Orthodox world to haue hitherto maintained the Doctrin now taught by the Roman Catholick Church concerning Transubstantiation Inuocation of Saints c. Therefore our Discourse seem's vngrounded I answer 1. The Reply is not to the Purpose in this place whilst we only press Sectaries to giue in Proofs for their Contrary Positions This wee say They Cannot doe Now if wee bee as farr of From Proofes or Cannot ground our Tenets vpon vndubitable Principles Controuersies are ended without more Adoe Because The first Obiection answered both of vs if the Supposition hold's haue no Articles of Religion to Propugn But weak opinions which whether true or false import not Saluation Nay the Truth of them could it be known is scarse worth any mans Knowledge I Answer 2. Our Proofs to say no more now Stand firm vpon Church Authority once at least owned Orthodox on our Councils and ancient Tradition neuer yet repealed nor excepted against But by Hereticks only May it please our Aduersaries to come Closely to the Point and plead in behalf of their Tenets by the Authority of any like or better Church than ours is We haue done and must yeild But this they know is impossible And therefore neither will nor can Answer our Discourse If they say our Church where its contrary to Protestancy has erred Vrge them to proue the Assertion by any Principle either equal to or stronger than our Church Authority is And you will haue them driuen again to their Glosses or to some few gleanings of Fathers In à word to no Principles 2. They may obiect 2. We haue took much pains to proue Nothing against Protestancy For we know some late Professors namely Doctor Bramhal and Mr Stillingfleet stifly maintain A second Obiection Proposed these Negatiues of No Transubstantiation No Sacrifice of the Mass No Inuocation of Saints c. To be only pious Opinions or inferiour Truths Neither reuealed by God nor Essential to Protestant Religion Therefore whilst we vrge them to ground such Negatiues vpon plain Scripture vpon the Authority of an Orthodox Church Councils Tradition c. They tell vs we meddle not at all with the Essentials of Protestancy But only dispute against Opinions And Contrary to iustice force them to proue meer opinions by Scripture Church c. wich is more then we can press vpon them or doe our selues For haue not wee Catholicks many Opinions in Schools which none pretend to ground vpon so strong Principles as we settle our Articles of Faith on Yes most assuredly Opinions then and Articles of Faith cannot but be very differently Principled And thus Point's at à distinâ—tion between Faith and Opinion the Protestant discourses in the present Matters Here saith He is the only difference That Catholicks lay Claim to more Articles
to stand on but meer Misinterpretations and Glosses which indeed merit not so much as very name of Topicks 33. You say 4. Heathenism if our Principle hold will be Answer to an Obiection taken from Heathenism proued the safest way to Saluation For some of you Catholicks agree That many of them may be saued without any explicite knowledge had of Christ But they deny you can be saued by it Answ Here the old fallacy is on foot again And à pretty Antilogy with it For if the Heathens deny we can be saued by an explicite knowledge of Christ They must certainly haue some explicite knowledge of him Or if they haue no such explicite knowledge How can they deny Saluation to vs by Christ They cannot deny what they neuer heard off But let this pass I Answer 2. You are quite besides the Question and once more out of our Principle For you ioine together two opinions only viz. what the Heathens and some Catholicks hold in order to the Saluation of such Aliens And We in the contest with you make vse of à Doctrin which all the Orthodox Churches on earth haue euer taught This is more certain than any opinion can be and only in order to the inference about the Saluation of Catholicks Add your opinion to it 3. After you haue said all you only conclude thus much that à Heathen may be saued without any explicite knowledge of Christ The Concession so far is good vpon the Opinion of Catholick Doctors but doth it follow from hence that so much only is true or that no more Doctrin is Safe This you ought to infer or you proue nothing 34. Page 623. You only tell vs what his Lordship saies viz. That the Roman Church and the Church of England are but two distinct members of the Catholick Church spread ouer the face of the Sectaries own Catholicks à part of the Catholick earth Obserue good Reader our Aduersaries both here and els where often make vs à part at least of the Church Catholick Vpon that Concession I argue ad Hominem they are certainly to talk no more of any danger of damnation for want of Faith but grant freely we may be saued or in real Truth They surpass Mahomet in malice For if Mahomet who held Moses and Christ two great Prophets neuer dared to damn those millions of Mahomet more fauourable then Sectaries souls that belieued in them And had liued from Moses vntil the wicked man set forth his Alcoran much less can these men who hold vs Christians and part of the Catholick Church damn those innumerable professors of this great moral body for want of Faith who haue been since the. 5. or 6. age vntil Luther appeared in the world You next put vs to our proofs If we can proue that the Roman Church is properly the Catholick Church it Self we are to Speak out c. Sr though we are not to proue that we keep in the Kings high way where the world has seen vs so many Ages But might most iustly force you late straglers to proue you haue taken à better path Yet what you desire is so amply euinced in the other Treatise vpon seueral Occasions chiefly Disc 3. C. 1. 2. 3. That none of you hitherto haue dared to Answer The proof briefly is reduced to this plain Discourse Three dayes before Luther shamefully deserted the Roman Catholick Communion there was à true visible Church on earth but that only was the Roman Catholick Church for all other Societies name which you will were erroneous and heretical The Roman the only Catholick Church Ergo the Roman Church or none for Protestants were not then in the world was the true Faithful Orthodox Church of Christ And is so Still after our Sectaries late Reuolt from it 35. You Cloy our ears again with his Lordships seuere Sentence concerning the Leaders of our Church who refuse to hear Her Instruction And his Charity extend's so far as to think them all lost souls though many that succeed them in these Errours without obstinacy may be saued Answ His Lordship neither is nor was nor Shall euer be the Iudge of the liuing and the Dead Therefore we little heed his heauy Doom The man has his already But say I beseech you Where was the Church before Luther whose Instruction the Catholick Leaders refused to hear was it your English Church Alas it was à thing neuer heard of in those Dayes Was it the Church of Arians Pelagians and such like comdemned Hereticks must our Leaders be damned for not hearing these No certainly Say then for Gods sake A question Proposed Concerning The Church Catholick where was the Church they should haue haue harken'd to and refused to hear Here Sr we vrge you may we vse your own Phrase to speak out to pronounce and proue Again How dare you with any Conscience suppose that so many learned most pious and virtuous Prelates Pastors Doctors Religious went against their own Consciences to lead Themselues and millions of Souls into Perdition whereof innumerable gaue all they had to the poor some built Churches Others founded Monasteries others Vniuersities Others who might haue liued like Princes in the world shut themselues vp in Cells to gain Heauen at last yet these for sooth must be Misleaders with you And damn themselues and whole Millions for nothing The Diuel in Hell hath not Desperate Doctrin malice enough to harbour such à thought And I verily perswade my self that neither the Bishop that 's gone nor you Sr when you wrote your Account where so far infatuated as to Iudge it probable Your Papers speak not alwaies your own Consciences 36. You Still run on with nothing Many Say you hold A meer importinency the Foundation it self Doctrinally who hold it not sauingly Most true A meer imporâ—inency But the fault is not in the Doctrin but in their want of complying And what 's this to our present purpose whilst we only Assert with you That Catholick Religion can saue vs If our liues be answerable to it 37. You say again Page 624. Our Leaders are lost because they most dangerously withhold from others the plain and vndoubted word of God And therefore deserue the same Anathema which S. Paul Pronounces against an Angel in case he teach any other Doctrin Answ Do you speak in earnest Good Sr Fauour me so far That you and I may debate this one point and end it by plain Scripture If you show me vpon sound Principles indeed That we teach any Doctrin Contrary to the plain word of God I am gained to your side And shall acknowledge you Conquerour But no fear of this You Say moreouer if you Proue vs guilty of any gross dangerous and damnable Errour That will be aboundantly sufficient to your purpose that Our's cannot possibly be any safe way to saluation Conditional Propositions here insignificant Answ Very right indeed But these Ifs end no Controuersies
à People mad nor besotted vpon this Account because As the Primitiue Christians more induced to belieue so are wee They proceeded iust as the Primitiue Christians did that alwaies belieued vpon Rational Motiues These Motiues then first enlightned the reason of the most ancient Christians And reason afterward preuented by grace submitted to all the Church teaches But much more of this hereafter because of greatest Consequence though it seem's Sectaries haue little regard to the Euidence of Christianity Drawn from rational Motiues 11. The. 3. Proposition The Marks of Christs Church manifest to all are more sensible and clear than the essential Doctrin is marked by them They are peculiar to the true Church only and distinguish Her from all Heretical Communities Finally taken all together and not by Piece-meal conuince this truth That God speaks to Christians by this Church Euery part of the Proposition proues it self First à Mark is more clear and sensible than the thing marked by it For who euer had seen our Blessed Sauiour walking here on earth and obserued his holy life whoeuer had heard his sacred words and seen his Miracles would haue said his Sanctity words and Miracles were more clear and euident to all than his Doctrin was of being God and man Therefore the first Christians belieued that great Mystery induced by euident works and wonders 2. These Marks are peculiar and proper to the true Church only You haue the reason hereof in the other Treatise Disc 1. C. 8. 1â—3 The force of prudent Motiues Because it is not possible if à true Church be now on earth that God can permit à false Society to equalize it much less to surpass it in the lustre of such Motiues as forcibly perswade to discern between That and all heretical Communities For were this done Falshood would be made as credible to reason as truth And God would be guilty of Arguing less efficaciously in behalf of his own Church against Iewes Gentils and obstinate Hereticks 12. Obserue well the Strength of this Argument I say in à word If an Arian could truly Assert I haue as many forceable Motiues And marks of truth belonging to my followers and Doctrin As the now supposed true Church of Christ can shew for it self could he say with truth I will euidence the like Antiquity the like Perpetuity the like lawful Mission of my Pastors the like vnity in Faith the like conuersions of Heathens wrought in and by my Church The like succession of Bishops preaching my Doctrin from Christs time to this day The like sanctity the like miracles as any Church on earth can demonstrate They distinguish the true Church from false Communities Could an Arian I say or Iew either speak all this with truth no Orthodox Christian could argue the one or other of Falshood in Doctrin For grant thus much These very men might much better handle and interpret Scripture than Protestants do vtterly destitute of all such Marks The Iew if the false supposition stand would draw the old Testament to his sense and so would the Arian the new And who could reproue them could they shew you à Church bearing these signes of diuine Authority Hence Sectaries that only Gloss Scripture and neuer had any thing like an euidenced Church which taught the Doctrin they now maintain and so earnestly Gloss for are most reproueable And vainly attempt to draw any prudent man to à belief of their Nouelties 13. By all you see how important it is to haue à Christian Society clearly marked and distinguished from false Communities with euident Signes and rational Motiues before we recurr to Scripture All faith depends on this greater Euidence laid forth to reason as Shall be demonstrated towards the end of this Discourse 14. I would haue euery one seriously to reflect on what is now said and once more to know That Christs Church like à glorious Sun euidenceth Her selfe by the Lustre of signal Marks though her essential Doctrin belieued by obscure Faith appear's not Euident Find me then out à Church euer in being since Christs time vnited in one Faith glorious in Miracles and conuersions of Heathens wherein Bishops and Pastors lawfully sent haue preached Christs Doctrin age after age Giue me à Church which was neuer censured or taxed of Errour by any Society of known Orthodox Christians She and She only is Christ's true Spouse All other late risen Assemblies are Conuenticles of Satan And these Marks do not only distinguish Her from all One only Church Shewes these Marks such Conuenticles as is now noted but Collectiuely taken conuince this Truth That God speak's to Christians by this Oracle whereof you haue more in the following Chapters 15. In the Interim we must enter vpon à further difficulty and next enquire which among so many Congregations as now are and haue been in the world is the only manifested true Spouse of Christ For all as I said aboue make not one Church vnless Christ hath composed this mystical Body of such members as rightly belieue and of others that iniuriously oppose his sacred Doctrin Now because the chief controuersy is between the Protestant and Catholick The first pretend's to à Church which teaches Christs Doctrin The Catholick vtterly denies the Pretence and pleads for his Own Oracle euidenced by prudent Motiues This I say being the Contest we are in the first place to vnchurch the Protestant and then proue by vndeniable Arguments where and with whom the true Church of Christ is CHAP. III. The Protestant has neither Church euidenced by Marks of Truth nor true Doctrin made credible to reason His whole Faith is built vpon Fancy 1. THe Marks of the Church as is now said are so clear to reason that they make the Oracle manifest to all sort of people to the learned and vnlearned to Iewes to Infidels and much more to Hereticks who pretend to belieue in Christ All of them are alike concerned and obliged to make à search after the true Church and when t' is found to belieue it 2. Now to find it out I Ask whether our English Protestants with these we chiefly dispute like well of the marks Questions Proposed to Sectaries already hinted at or will reiect them I propose my doubt with all candor Will they dare to say That their Church as it deliuers Protestants Doctrin or as it is now reformed in England was euer since Christ time In Being and visible to the world Can they produce à Succession of Bishops or Pastors that taught Protestancy Age after Age without intermission Can they show what Conuersions these Protestant Pastors wrought vpon Heathens to their faith fiue or six Centuries since Can they produce indubitable Miracles done by such Pastors Most euidently No. Therefore our later Protestants reiect these and the other like Motiues as slight and impertinent to euidence their Church which yet say they teaches Christs Doctrin and Wilily do so because they haue none of them Well To
Church of Christ and consequently both the Romanists and English wanting fundamentals are People essentially Churchless Now vpon the Supposition of lesser corruptions only not fundamental you haue à dreadful Inference against Protestants And as true as dreadful Viz. That their first Separation from the Roman Catholick Church was damnably Sinful though She were here falsly supposed to haue erred in smaller matters This I A third Inference Say followes not only because the Ancient Fathers expresly teach No Reformation can be of such Importance as to counteruaile the danger of Diuisions And that all things should be rather tolerated than to consent to Schism in the Church But vpon this other account also that the Reuolt of Protestants from our Ancient Church hath laid such à visible disgrace vpon à noble Kingdom That none but the powerful hand of God with the wisdom of our Gracious Souereign and the States concurrence Touching vpon the doleful Diuisions in England can take it of The Nation we see with our eyes is strangely diuided hideously discomposed Religion is of the hinges and men generally are so transported into Extrauagancies that none can say what the Religion is which England Professes at this day There are so many Sects so many Diuisions so many Tub-Preachers so many woemen-Gospellers so many Quakers so many Fanaticks so many Leuiathan-Monsters that you may read and see without turning to the Bible à Babylonian Confusion amongst them Would Popery Sr. think ye you are as I vnderstand moderate and learned had that continued laid England vnder such à publick Disgrace as this Rabble of men and Fanaticks haue done Let the world iudge 19. Now if you Ask from whence came this fearful Disorder which to my sorrow makes our Country ridiculous to forrain Nations I answer The first Rent the first Rupture the first Schism of Protestants from the Catholick Church occasioned all Here is the Source and Sole Origen of these vnfortunate The Origen of all these lamentable Diuisions Reuolutions Wherefore this Argument proposed by à Fanatick against Protestants is vnanswerably conuincing Ad hominem I say ad hominem not that I approue Fanaticism As ye Protestants without recourse to any other iudge but your Selues vpon your own Authority quitted the Roman Catholick Church and thought your Fact reasonable So we Fanaticks without recourse to any but our own tender Consciences knowing you began à Reformation not yet compleat leaue Protestancy And hold our fact as reasonable as yours And thus others by your first Example The Fanaticks Argument against Protestants may reform Religion to the worlds end Yet all of vs may these men Say make but one true Church For if Mr. Thorndicke Page 9. Answer 's pertinently to that demand Where his Church was before Luther There it was saith he where it is The same Church reformed which was depraued afore If this Answer I say be good Pray you why should Fanaticks Nay why ought the Arians and worst of Heretickes be excluded from being of one and the same Catholick Church For the Church seems to Sectaries an ample field and embraceth all called Christians though differently reformed The only difficulty then is to find out him or se Those who among so many dissenting Reformers the whole world ouer haue happily made the best choise in All seclanes will reform and none can do it mending Religion The Protestant you see reform's the Catholick the Puritan the Protestant and the Quaquer will reform all at once vntil some new Sectary peep out that bring 's in à better Fashion And is it possible shall all these vnreformed People reform one another This difficulty cannot be solued in Protestant principles 20. I say in à word It is impossible to reform any erring Society of Christians but by the Rule Doctrin and Authority of The Church which reform's other erring Socoeties must not need any reformation some one Church which must be owned so pure that She cannot be reformed in what She teaches The reason is clear For à fallible and deformed Church can no more help to reform another like wise fallible or unreformed than the blind lead the blind Hence methinks Mr. Thorndick who hold's Protestancy as fallible and as much out of order as Popery Speak's little to the purpose Page 11. where he saith There is no Power in this Church and Kingdom he mean's England to reform it self in matter of Religion but only by that Form and to that Form which may appear to haue been held by the whole Primitiue Church before the Corruption came in which we pretend to reform I cannot but smile at this word Appear Pray you Sr Say to whom must it Appear What To you or me or to any priuate fallible man You talk as if forsooth the Primitiue Doctrin were so apparently Manifest to People that euery one by opening Books and reading Autiquity may with à wet singer clearly discouer the true and Orthodox Form of Religion Wheras the contrary is euident For haue not we and Protestants to omit others now for à whole Age perused Councils and Fathers and after all do we not see with our eyes that what seem's Orthodox Doctrin to one Party seem's not so to the other It appears manifestly to me that the Primitiue Fathers so openly maintained an vnbloody Sacrifice vpon the Altar that the wit of man cannot without violence wrest them to à contrary sense doth the Truth appear so to Protestants It appeared to S. Cyprian Epist 55. ad Cornel. Dissentions arises after the perusal of the primitiue writings and to me also That Heresy and Schism take their Origen from this That the fraternity of Christians answerably to Gods command Obey not one Priest and one Iudge who is Christs Vice-gerent in the Militant Church on earth Will Sectaries read and vnderstand this as I doe It seemed clear to S. Hierome cited aboue That one out of the Roman Catholick Church wherof Pope Damasus was then Head really belonged not to Christ but to Antichrist and Therefore ought to be esteemed an Alien from the house of God à Person vnclean and prophane Will the Protestant after his reading these words own the Doctrin pure and Orthodox No he dares not 21. What then is the Result though we read these and à hundred other Passages in the ancient Records so Plain for Popery Experience tell 's vs nothing els ensues but an endles contest about their Sense and crossing one an other with contrary glosses This is all that can appear to Mr Thorndick Wherefore Vnless The plainest Authorities Conuince not Sectaries Recourse be had to better Principles then to meer Appearances Disputes may goe on till Dooms day without Satisfaction or fruit to any Be it how you will My hearty wish is that Mr Thorndick who hitherto Stayes in Generallities would please fully to set down that whole Plat-form of Religion which he conceiues exact and suitable to the Primitiue Church Were this
Fifteen and I le tell you which it is the Churches glorious Miracles hath so silenced Sectaries that none of them all has hitherto attempted to return any better answer than this Bellarmine thou lies't He Saies 2. The only certain Note of the true Church is its agreement with the Primary foundation of it in the Doctrin whâ—ch was infallible and attested by miracles vndoubtedly Diuine This is à strange Note or Mark which cannot be distinguished from the thing Marked as the Motiues of Credibility manifestly sensible are distinguished from the Doctrin belieued 10. Answer therefore Good Sr is this Agreement with the Primitiue Doctrin it s owns Self Euidence as à Mark should be Or do all dissenting Parties accord thus far That anciently such That 's made à clear Mark â—as the Primitiue Doctrin but now is changed from it selfe into another new Learning Most euidently no. For the whole contest between the Church and Her Aduersaries may these be â—eard is whether of vs Professe the Primitiue Doctrin laid in the first foundation of Christianity This point then being yet disputable for so Sectaries will haue it it is meer folly to make it à Mark whereby to distinguish truth from falshood And there is which Sectaries must Say is yet disputable and obscure no clearing it from Improbability vnless you say Sectaries more â—iâ—e then the rest of the world can exactly tell vs who those Christians are that now agree with the Primitiue Doctrin and who dissent from it But others as wise as they want faith to belieue such bare Assertions without Proofs and Principles In à word there is no knowing what the Primitiue Doctrin was nor can any now haue infallible certainty of the Apostles Miracles without à Church actually in Being and Infallible 11. He saith 3. If our Doctrin be repugnant to what was Originally 〈…〉 ered by the Founder of the Christian Church our Society is not the Conditional Propositions here Proofless Christian Church Answ No more Sr is Yours if it be repugnant But To what purpose are these Iss and conditional Propositions when Proofs are expected from Accusers Proue you if you can but doe it vpon sound Principles that our Doctrin is repugnant to that which was Originally deliuered you are Conqueâ—our and we no more Catholicks but Sr à hundred more of your Volumes will neuer Euince this 12. He demands 4. whether we cannot conceiue à Church should A fallible Church cannot be Consonant to Christ's Doctrin be Consonant to the Doctrin of Christ without being infallible Answ No truly T' is impossible and here is the Reason because in à lesse space then one Age there would be as many Religions in such à Church as there are Townes or villages in it And perhaps more And is not this manifest in England where almost euery year we haue à new Religion coyned Therefore to Imagin à Society of men vnited rogether in the belief of Christ's infallible Doctrin without an infallible Oracle to teach is à meer Chimera O but euery Man in this fallible Society is bound to take care of his soul and to belieue the infallible Doctrin of Christ I Answer If to take care of his Soul necessarily implies the Belief of Christ's infallible Doctrin it is impossible to take that care because he can haue no infallible Assurance of Christs Doctrin without à Church which teaches it infallibly Hereof enough is said aboue 13. Page 134. He desires to haue such Miracles wrought as may conuince Infidels as to the point of the Churches infallibility Answ He has all he can desire The Blind se A Parallel of Miracles The Dumb speak the Deaf hear The Dead rise vp to life again were our Sauiours own Miracles and conuinced Infidels but these are our Churches likewise as is largely proued Disc 2. C. 8. What would the man haue more 14. Page 135. To his no little disgrace without any Proof at all he scornfully slights that euident and most known Miracle An Euident Miracle slighted wrought at Zaragosa in Spain But enough of this aboue Disc 2. C. 9. Here I can add hauing it from à right Honourable Person yet liuing who heard His Maiesty Charles the first Say in the presence of many others The cure of that young Man at Zaragosa was certain Some herevpon Proposing à further Question whether it could be thought à Miracle His Maiesty Answered be it as you will the thing was done The leg cut off and buried was certainly restored again 15. In the same Page he Questions whether the Motiues we produce belong only to our Church But grant Saith he they do belong its hard to find the connexion between them and Infallibility We haue Answered to the first No Society of men can shew the like Motiues and therefore vrge Mr Stillingfleet to produce his Euidence That is To proue they The Conneâ—ion between Miracles and Infallibility euinced belong to any other Society But to the Roman Catholick Church only The other point concerning the Connexion Nicodemus à Prince of the Iewes Iohn 3. V. 2. long since cleared Rabbi we know thou art come à Master or Teacher from God for no man can do these Signs which thou dos't vnless God be with him Was then our Sauiour proued by the works and the Miracles he did à Master sent from God to teach And did these Signs conuince reason that God was with him when he taught None can deny it Therefore none can doubt ' but that He was also proued infallible by Virtue of His wonders And consequently the connexion between them and infallibility hold's good But The true Inference the Church and here is our Inference Euidences the very like Signes aboue the force of nature therefore reason concludes that She also is proued Infallible Wherefore Mr Stillingfleet is either obliged to find à flaw in the consequence or to giue à Disparity between our Church-Motiues and those other Primitiue which he neuer goes about to do 16. I meet with nothing in His. 136. Page but loud vntruths Another Parergon to diuert the Reader concerning our Doctrin of Pennance as if we indulged sin here and yet gaue men hope of Heauen hereafter It is à Calumny euery one knowes we teach no such Doctrin and â—n this place à meer Parergon besides I therefore slight it and take notice of another straying out of the way P. 137. where he Speak's thus The Principles of any Conclusion must be â—f more credit then the Conclusion it self Therefore if the Articles â—f Faith The Trinity and Resurrection be the Conclusions And the Principles by which they are proued be only Ecclesiastical Tradition it â—ust needs follow That the Tradition of the Church is more infallible then the Articles of faith if the Faith we haue of those Articles should be finally resolued into the veracity of the Churches Testimony 17. This Difficulty not well digested either Proues nothing or makes euery Resolution
was The same Christian Church as before the Reformation Hauing lost nothing that made it so And if you Obiect The Church in How our Aduersaries Shuffle England before Luther was certainly Popish now its Protestant Ergo it is not the same Church They Answer and vow it to be the very same though it ceased to hold Popery 20. Much might be said against these meer Empty words I 'll here only entertain you with two Reflections vpon the whole Paralogism First it makes the worst of Heresies defensible For might not Arius haue pleaded in like manner My Church They make the worst of Heresies defensible is where it was besore The very same Christian Society though changed into Arianism as the ancient Religion in England now is into Protestanism So also the Pelagians The Macedonians and all other Heretiques could haue Argued excepting perhaps à few Donatists who confined the whole Church to their little Part in Affrick Again As the Thing is reformed it passes with Protestants for à Part of the Catholick Church Therefore as reformed it s supposed à Piece of Reasonable Religion Sectaries And their Reformation vnreasonable pretend not to an vnreasonable Reformation And i' ft be So before the Professors of it talk of the Truth of this Reformation They are obliged to make it Credible by such Miracles Signes and wonders as an Infinite Power and VVisdom and no other Proposes to Reason But all is contrary They begin Becauss strip't of all rational Motiues and bring in à Reformation so naked and strip't of rational Motiues that none can Say God himselfe declares it reasonable by any Signature which may bee esteemed an effect of his Power and Wisdom Or in à word Supernatural 21. And here in passing You haue the true Reason why Sectaries in their Polemicks keep close to the Procedure of all condemned Hereticks The Arians for Example neuer Sectaries follow the strain of Condemned Hereticks went about to giue Reason the least Satisfaction in behalfe of their Rupture made with the Church but leauing that Rational way pleaded by Scripture So do Protestants Before they had Shown any thing like à rational Euidence of Credibility to countenance that shameful Diuorce They voted it Iust So do Protestants Wauing the Ancient Sense of Scripture receiued by the Church they glossed it after their fashion So do Protestants Tradition that strong Tenure whereby the Church hold's Her best Inheritance or Deriues Christ's Doctrin down from Age No Motiues Proposed to Reason to Age The Arians slighted And so do Protestants But All this while though we earnestly wish to hear of Motiues proposed to Reason whereby this Reformation may be made Credible we are turnd off with meer Talk And neuer yet heard or shall hear os more Euidence for That than the worst of Arians can allege for Arianism Wherefore I conclude Protestancy is an vnreasonable Nouelty and consequently no Religion for meerly to Say à Religion is true and from God before it be made Credible by Supernatural Signes Vphold's Arianism Donatism Quakerism and the greatest fooleries in the world CHAP. XVI Obiections solued Sectaries pretending not to Se the Churches Euidence are either blind or wilfully shut their Eyes The Assertion clearly proued A Parallel of the Primitiue and the present Churches Euidence How far Reason may be sayd to Regulate Faith 1. AGainst our pleading Euidence of Credibility for Catholick Religion manifested by the Lustre of supernatural Motiues One may first Obiect Euery Mans priuate Why the Euidence of Credibility is most Conuincing Reason is to Iudge whether this Euidence Conuinces or no And consequently the last Iudgement belong's to the Tribunal of priuate Reason I haue Answered The Euidence vpon two rational Principles is so great that it cannot but conuince First because the Author of it is no other but God who certainly was no Impostor when he set before Reason the light of most glorious Supernatural Signes And by virtue of Two Reasons them hath induced both Iewes and Gentils to belieue in Christ 2. Because That which the most Wise and Learned of the Christian world haue Iudged Euidently reasonable May vpon so great Authority be supposed Reasonable But All those Vast Multitudes Conuerted to true Christian Religion haue Iudged the Euidence of Credibility manifest in the Church both rational and conuincing Therefore it is so 2. Hence it followes 1. That the true Iudgement concerning The Iudgement long Since giuen now is not reuersable this Euidence was long since giuen antecedently to the weak Censure of this or that particular man who now would Cauil at it 2. That all Exceptions made against it are euidently vnreasonable vpon this ground That those Thousands and Thousands most Wise and Learned who owned the Euidence And haue been induced by it to belieue must if Misled be No other Inducements excogitable accounted not only temerarious but also Mad besotted and grosly Seduced by Fooleries This cannot be Granted Perhaps you 'le Say Those Wise and Learned belieued vpon other Inducements Distinct from our Churches Motiues Answ Not one can be Assigned distinct from these if wee speak of Motiues Proposed to Reason as is proued already 3. A. 2. Obiection Sectaries for all this Pretend not to se the Churches Euidence I Answer it is not for want of Light but for want of Ey-sight That is bebause they will be blind Thousands As is now Said as Wise and Learned as they haue Sectaries want not light but Eye-sight seen the Light and followed it Why then do They stumble in Darkness when the same Euidence is Set before their Eyes I haue no other Answer but what Truth it Selfe Deliuers Ioan. 1. The Son of God The Light of the world came amongst vs Et mundus eunt non cognouit The world would not know him Both Iewes and Gentils wilfully shut their Eyes to the Signal Marks of his sacred Preaching And so do Sectaries at this day to the Churches Euidence 4. Some may Reply What we now Say is only to Preach and not to Proue For how can wee Euince that Sectaries Shut their Eyes to any Light of Euidence Answ They wilfully Shut their Eyes Enough is proued Already Howeuer to come closer to the Matter and to leaue them without all excuse I 'll Add one word more which shall be Conuincing 5. Pray you Imagin That some of our Sectaries had liued in those happy Dayes when the Holy Euangelists set forth the Life of our blessed Sauiour And the Apostles preached his Sacred Doctrin to the first Conuerted Christians Would not An Argument drawn from the primitiue Euidence They think ye haue as readily belieued what euer Doctrin those Blessed men then wrote and Preach't As the other vast Multitudes who came flocking in belieued Yes Certainly Their Obstinacy though great would not haue surpassed that of Iewes and Gentils These yeilded after they heard such Oracles speak And so I think Sectaries
it self deriues from that Oracle of Truth I say Contrary As such Opinions when true Add no more weight or certainty to that Doctrin than it had antecedently from the The Fundamental ground of our Answer Church So if false They make not the Doctrin less certain Take one instance God reueals this Truth The Diuine word assumed Humane nature One preaches the Truth but Adds no degree of certainty to the Doctrin in it self which in the highest degree was most certain before his Preaching An other falsly as Arius did opposes the verity it is not Therefore less certain in it self because He contradicts it And thus we discourse of our Church Tenets indubitably most certain vpon Church Authority whether Hereticks deny or grant That Matters not the Doctrin stand's firm still as before And as we see by daily experience neither riseth higher in certainty nor fall's lower in the iudgement of Catholicks because Sectaries side with it or bend against it 22. Thus much proued The Paralogism is at an end The Catholicks held The Donatists Baptism valid so they would haue done had these Hereticks duely Ministred it and with all which is possible afterward denied it valid So independent Church Doctrin is of dissenting mens opinions The Donatists again slighted our Catholick Baptism the Church regards it not For as the Opinions of the Goodnes of their own Baptism heightned not the Churches certainty concerning it So their Contrary Opinion of its insufficiency made not the Truth less certain to the Catholick Apply what is here noted to our present case and you will see the like Conclusion Protestants Say we may be Sectaries Siding with vs neither Lessens nor increases our Certainty saued in Catholick Religion The Opinion is true But as asserted by them is no more but an Opinion which therefore Add's not one grain of more Certainty to Catholick Doctrin For had they denied vs à possibility of Saluation as now by meer Chance they grant it Catholicks would haue giuen as little eare to That as They now doe to their many other false Opinions So it is Church Doctrin as I now said neither fall's nor riseth in certainty vpon the account of our Sectaries Opinions 23. You will Ask what then gain we by the Concession of Protestants when it giues vs no more Assurance in this particular than we had before from the Church I haue answered aboue We gain thus much That they cannot rationally impugn any Catholick Doctrin without contradicting Them selues For if confessedly This bring 's men to Heauen the Religion is sound And implies no essential Errour The concession then as I said serues well as an Argument ad Hominem to stop the mouths of Sectaries And showes withall That they end controuersies For its What their Excession Serues for horridly vniust to dispute against à Faith which all grant saues souls We pretend no more nor can pretend it And here is the Reason 23. No Catholick nor indeed any other doth or can belieue à Christian Verity vpon this ground or Motiue that Sectaries say its true for their saying so is neither Gods Reuelation nor the Churches Doctrin But à meer Opinion as taught by them But an opinion chiefly theirs is to weak to ground any faith vpon Therefore if I belieue as I do Saluation most safe in the Roman Catholick Church I belieue it vpon à Motiue totally distinct from the Protestants Assertion It is true their Assertion or siding with vs may induce one to reflect on the great power Truth has in working vpon men most refractory Though it Adds no new degree of certainty to Catholick Doctrin I haue insisted longer vpon this point because it vtterly destroies what euer Mr. Stillingfleet can say against vs vnless he will quarrel vpon this score that I here suppose my Church Doctrin most certain which is not the Question now But may well be supposed in all good law of disputation And shall God willing be proued in the next Discourse 24. Page 619. you proceed to à second Answer of his Lordship And Argue thus If that be the safest which both Parties agree in the Principle makes much for the Aduantage of Protestants And why We Catholicks are bound Say you to belieue with you in the Point of the Eucharist For all sides agree The Sectaries Argument taken from the Eucharist in the faith of the Church of England That in the most blessed Sacrament the worthy Receiuer is by his Faith made Spiritually partaker of the true and Real body and blood of Christ truly and really c. Answ 1o. If we belieued As you do The motiue of our Faith would be As is now said quite different from the Motiue of your Opinion And so it is de facto in the belief of euery Catholick Mystery But I waue this And say Your Principle is ill applyed For you and we agree in iust nothing concerning the Eucharist but thus far only That what we see look's like bread We say that very Christ who was born of the Virgin and suffered on the Cross is really and substantially present vnder the form's of bread after true Consecration You by à strange fancy lay hold of Christs Presence existing in Heauen And think thereby to make your selues partaker of his real body We say Christ is rruly Worth nothing and why and really in two and more places at once you make this vtterly impossible We put the real Presence or local being of Christ in the very Obiect before our eyes vpon the Altar you put it in your faith or Fancy rather Hence your question afterward viz. Whether we do not allow any real and Spiritual presence of Christ besides the Corporal you mean the Real manducation is soon answered For we distinguish what you confound together And say if by these Terms Spiritual Presence you would exclude the real obiectiue Presence of Christs sacred body we dissent from you And absolutly hold that Real obiectiue Presence which may be rightly called Spiritual because by it Christ is placed Totus in toto totally in the whole host and totally in euery part of it Contrariwise if you make it only à fancied Presence of Christ or say Hee is not really vnder the Forms or Accidents of bread wee leaue that lean Sacramentarie Doctrin to you vtterly disanow it and still dissent from you 25. The whole cheat lies hudled vp in those vnexplicated words The worthy Receiuer is by his Faith made spiritually partaker of the true and real body c. As if forsooth your two terms The fallacy discouered Faith and Spiritual could make vs agree in one Tenet whereas we most vary about this very Faith and the obiect of it And also disclaime your fancied Spiritual Presence Hence we say you haue neither true Sacrament nor true Faith nor receiue worthily nor really partake of Christs true body nor of any benefit of his Passion We say you feed not spiritually but only tast natural
neuer censured Church be Supposed guilty after the whole world held her blamless and has iudged well of Her condemnations pas't vpon Hereticks Compare I say the Authority of the Church time out of mind proued Innocent with the Authority of Hereticks known most guilty There can be no Parallel may we precisely respect Authority Wherefore if the Opposition of Hereticks hath any force Their charge against the Church must stand vpon Strong proofs and sound Principles distinct from Their own voting Her Delinquent These Principles we seek for in all our Disputes with Protestants yet hitherto neuer heard of Any and belieue it Wee hold their own Authority of no greater weight than that of Arians or of any other condemned Hereticks 8. Others quite driuen off all ground of rational Arguing will needs fasten Errours vpon our Church because forsooth in such an Age the 9 th For example after Christ or There about some Popes were less good and People much debauched An other simple Plea Then most likely was the Nick of time Say these to bring in Transubstantiation the Popes Supremacy and what other Errour you will Answ A most pitiful Plea not worth the paper it blot's I shall not so much refute it for it merit 's not the labour As Shew how it destroyes the Belief of all Christian Religion 9. Pray you consider Christianity in the greatest Latitude Imaginable Call Arians Donatists Protestants And Catholicks also Christians Grant which is true that there haue been very wicked men amongst these different Professors I say if this Argument haue weight Some few Popes and many People were not good for one Age chiefly Ergo debauchery in manners more then probably brought in false Doctrins vnder the Notion of Christian Truths A Iew or Gentil may Argue as well and infer that Viciousness of life hath destroyed all Truth among Christians if euer They had any For why should lewdness haue less force to Subuert all Truth taught by the Church of Rome than some only It hath say Sectaries brought in much Errour Therefore saith the Iew it may as well haue corrupted all Christ Doctrin 10. To reinforce this Argument I told you aboue if the Church of Rome had but once proposed one Article to be belieued by Diuine Faith which is false She is not to be reiected and proued unreasonable credited in any thing If you Reply it is euident That though false in many Tenets She yet taught some Articles true As that Christ is our Redeemer The Iew Answers and so do I too She Taught and teaches so still but that This is Truth if debauchery of life bee ineuitably connexed with false Doctrin shall neuer be made Probable For this Church is either entierly sound in Doctrin or Entirely deluded One may Say Scripture is euidently plain for some Primary Articles of Christian belief Answ The Iew scorn's the Reply and maintain's this Truth as I also do If it be once proued that the Church of Rome imposed on the Christian world Falshood in place of Truth Transubstantiation The Sacrifice on the Altar c. She may as easily haue corrupted the whole Bible and made that Book false in à hundred important Passages whereof enough is said in the other Treatise No true Church Therefore no Probability of true Scripture 11. Let vs now proceed to others called Christians the most known Arch-hereticks you will haue the same Conclusion Arius for example à stubborn proud Fellow had many Associates like Himself yea and certainly taught some Doctrins false Therefore Saith the Iew All He deliuered was false also The Diuel learned Luther to broach His new Gospel and the mans enormous Viciousness is known to the world by as credible Authors as Platina or Nico de Clemangijs who make Popes and People so impious Therefore all that Luther taught cannot but bee vpon the Argument proposed most iustly excepted against An other Simple Argument reiected as pernicious Doctrin For gross Errours like à Torrent follow Deprauation in manners Caluins Pride Deceipt and Cousenage to say nothing of that hidious Sin for which he was branded are vpon Record And all know what Rebellion what tragical Doings ensued vpon the wicked mans Apostasy Who then can harbour so much as à good thought of any Doctrin He taught euen that Christ dyed for vs Hence saith the Iew if Wickednes of life and Errours in Doctrin be such inseparable Companions And all Sects or Religions nameable haue had Professors wicked Farewel Christianity yea and Christ Himself also For if the Impiety of some lead's Erroneous Doctrins into à whole Moral Body that one crying Sin of Iudas might more easily haue corrupted the First Apostolical Colledge smal in Number Than the incomparable lesse defects of Popes depraue the great Moral Body of the Church O but Christ secured the other Apostles from Errour Answ So he doth his Church And the Iew will as soon belieue the one as the other who Argues thus 12. Christianity was neuer without Sin Ergo neuer without Errour if the Argumâ—nt haue force When Therefore these new men Say Wickedness of life Compared with the losse of Faith Gods Prouidence seem's equally concerned to preserue the Church from things equally Pernicious But viciousnes of life is as pernicious to Christianity and as destructâ—ue to the End of it as Errours in Doctrin They know not what they Say The Argument is euery way defectiue 13. First it s vtterly False that Wickednes is so pernicious as Errours against Christian Doctrin For Errours destroies Faith the ground of Saluation and immedeatly opposeth Gods Infinite Veracity Wickednes in Manners destroies Grace and other Supernatural virtues yet leaues the Foundation vnshaken Again By what law do these men Suppose that God preserued not his Church Holy in those dayes Doth it follow because some were wicked that She lost all Sanctity Will they Say if the English Church had euer Sanctity in it All vanished into Smoak in the late dissentions and deplorable Tumults There were neuer such Doings at Rome in the worst of daies as England then Shewed to the world O but there were then many Holy and Godly men that suffered Be it so at present I loue not to recriminate For one of yours Holy we had Thousands in that Particular Abuse can not unhallow the Church Age you except against the whole world ouer in England Germany Spain France Denmark c. most humble pious virtuous and profoundly learned What do you think that à few Abuses in Italy not half so bad as you make them can Vnhallow an ample Church Yet here lies the Strength of your weak Argument The iniquity of some chiefly of Popes and Prelates ruins not sanctity only But moreouer induceth Errour into the whole Moral Body of Christ You iust proceed as if One should atattempt to proue that à goodly Building which yet visibly stands fair to the Eye and firm on Sure foundations is all shattered and pulled down
S. Cyprian Epist 76. That that man is not in the Church nor can be thought à Bishop who succeeds to none but hath his Authority and Origen from himself These and other forceable Testimonies we waue and urge Sectaries as the ancient Tertullian did the Hereticks of his time Lib. de praesc Evolvant ordinem Episcoporum suorum c. Let them vnfold the Catalogue of their Bishopr from this day to Luther and from Luther vpward and here we call not for Hussits VValdenses or such like men but for à continued descent of Bishops and Pastors Lawfully ordained and commissioned by Authority to preach Protestancy VVe Protestants haue none call indeed but hear of none before the daies of that vnfortunate Luther Therefore as I said aboue they are sons without Fathers they would be thought spiritual Children but are so vnbegotten that no body own 's them 5. Reflect à little Gentle Reader and cease not to wonder at the greatest Paradox I think that euer entred into the thought of man Holy Scripture Ascertains vs that Prouidence hath appointed Bishops to gouern his Church Pastors and Doctors to teach till the Consummation of Saints for the edifying A Paradox maintened by Sectaries of Christs Mystical body The Roman Catholick Church gives in Her Catalogue of Bishops and Pastors euer since Christ The first Apostolical Pastors receiued their learning from an Infallible Master God and man These conueyed it to their Successors They to others till this very age And to proue that They both kept and faithfully conueyed the same Doctrin without Change or Alteration you haue not only Church Authority the greatest on earth but more Gods own seal set to this Doctrin Christ's owne signes and Marks Miracles vndeniable Miracles Conuersions of nations c. Now start vp à knot of late vnknown strangers called Protestants without Bishops without Pastors for 1â— Ages These pretend to haue receiued new letters new learning from Jesus Christ That is an other sense of Scripture than was formerly deliuered This Letter is read This learning is published to the world VVe Ask what lawful Pastors taught it four Centuries since VVhat ancient Church owned it They Answer none VVe demand again To haue at least à Demands proposed to Sectaries sight of God's Seal set to this Letter some visible Marks of Christ Miracles for example to make the doctrin accepted They haue not any Ergo say wee The letter is forged the Doctrin is false uneuidenced improbable 6. All that 's pleadable against this Discourse is That our Doctrin once confessedly Orthodox was changed by the Church in after Ages Answ VVe are both willing and ready to discuss and that most rigidly this particular with Protestants but before hand giue them one Caueat Viz. That no Topicks but sound Principles enter here or bethe last Probation If then wee produce and most euidently à list of our Bishops and Pastors euer No Answer giuen since Christ as Witnesses of our Faith They are to do as much and produce as many for Protestancy If we as we do euer force Sectaries to name some known Orthodox Society of Christians that condemned our Doctrin in any Age they are obliged to vnbeguile vs and show vs where or when or by whom we were condemned If finally we vnexceptionably euidence most glorious Miracles to haue illustrated our Church euen after Her fancied Falling from the Primitiue truth after she became What sectaries are forced to grant the whore of Babylon our new men must either deny her such Miracles if so we vrge them to ground the denial on Principles equal to our contrary Probations or will certainly be forced to confess That God wrought Miracles in à Church which had brought in shameful Errours and quite forsaken the Primitiue Doctrin Obserue well the force of our Argument It s improbable to say That God fauoured this Church with the Glory of Miracles Had She falsifyed His reuealed truths And it is as wholly improbable to deny Her the Glory of Supernatural wonders Sectaries worn-out Obiections are not worth taking notice of Some oppose the Greeks though now not of the Church pretending to à Succession We answer if the Pretext be true Their cause vpon that Account is better than Protestants But withall say though Succession bee euer necessary to demonstrate the Church yet it followes not where we haue it There is the Church For Other Errours may vndoe all And de facto Vnchurch the Greeks guilty and condemned in three General Councils See Bellarmine de Notis Ecclesia Lib. 4. Cap. 8. 6. secundo 7. Enough is said aboue and in the other Treatise also Disc 1. C. 10. n. 4. 12. of the Vnion and Sanctity of our Church Vnity à Mark of the Church Vnion in Faith the greatest Blessing hearts can desire asserted by S. Hierome Epist. 57. ad Damasum Those are prophane who â—ate not the lambe in the Roman Catholick Church And innumerable other Fathers knit's together this whole Moral Body amongst so many different Nations different judgements different manners different Education different times different places from one end of the world to the other All belieue as the Pope himself belieues or is no Member of this Church And here is our Glory Wheras if on the other side we cast à sorrowful Vtterly destroyed by Sectaries thought vpon all the Hereticks who from the beginning rent themselues from the Roman Church we shall find Diuisions and subdiuisions Foreruners of Ruin endlesly following which at last destroyed them From one Luther as Bellarmin now cited obserues Cap. 10. à hundred Heresies sprouted vp And since his time there are more added to that number in our Mr. Thorndicke true Obseruation once most Catholick England He that can take measure saith Mr. Thorndicke in his late little Book of Forbearance P. 33. how much of common Christianity is lost by these Divisions in thirty years time since our troubles began euen among them that call them selues Godly and Saints will easily belieue that it he means Christianity hath not long to liue in that Isâ—and vnless Diuision be put to death 8. A iust iudgement of God vpon them pointed at by the Prophet Isay Cap. 19. 2. I will make the Aegyptians to run against Aegyptians and à man shall fight against his Brother euery man against his friend Citty against Citty and Kingdom against Kingdom Such confusion such an Abomination of desolation we Englands Diuision remediless vvithout returning to the Roman Catholick Church see now standing in that once holy Nation Hee that reads let him vnderstand which might iustly draw teares of blood from Compassionate Eyes Were it not that as S. Hilary notes Bellum haereticorum pax est Ecclesiae The Dissensions of Hereticks brings peace to the Church This some what asswages our Grief and stint's our teares But the Euil is desperate and incurable do what Sectaries can without returning to the Church of Rome which causelesly
they haue forsaken And thus much Mr. Thorndicke seem's to Assert though I know not very well what he mean's by the Româ—â— Catholick Church He Adds more P. 127. We They in England are in the State of Schism in spite of our teeth Though we are â—â— clear our selues of the crime of schism vpon the Terms setled S â— no Terms excogitable shall clear you from that crime or euer bring you to Settlement But à perfect Revnion with the ancient and present church of Rome Whereof enough is said both in this And the other Treatise 9. To speak in this place of the Churches Sanctity whether we consider the Purity of Doctrin or the Eminent Holynes of innumerable professing her Faith would require volumes I say in à word neither Heathen nor Sectary though cauils are raised Sanctity Eminent in the Roman Catholick Church against the Orthodoxism of our Doctrin could yet iustly tax it of too much liberty giuen to Christians We contrary to the inclination of nature fast when Sectaries feast we humbly confess our Sins to à Priest they shake of that obligation Our Church forbid's Marriage to the clergy allowed to Ministers We in spiritual Affaires submit to one Supreme Head of the Church They acknowledge no submission to any in points of Belief but to their own Fancy We are vnited together in one Ancient Catholick Faith and execrate all Divisions They are endlesly deuided in their Nouelties We set à high value vpon the pious laudable works of iust men They esteem all as sordid and sinful We say God inforceth no man to Sin they as Caluin confesses make him both Author and cause of it I might yet instance in à hundred other particulars But t' is needles The whole world see 's that Catholicks strengthned by the Grace of God contrary to their interest and natural Propensions euen for conscience sake Profess and practise more Austerity Pray more diligently fast Not so with Sectaries oftner obserue the lawes of the Church more exactly And finally doe greater works of Charity than Sectaries either think necessary or hold Themselues obliged to by virtue of their Religion I say by vertue of their Religion which binds to nothing but only to Believe though no man knowes what and consequently giues so much liberty in other matters that it makes the Professors thereof Libertins Most vniustly therefore doe our new men call Protestancy the reformed Religion vnless by an Antiphrasis or contrary way of speaking when God knowes it reforms nothing but contrariwise allowes more then enough relaxation to Corrupted nature Whence I infer A thing so Indulgent as Protestancy miscalled à Reformed Religion Protestancy is cannot be from God who will haue us to curb Sensuallity and vpon that account the Professors of it seem very vnfit to reforme the Doctrin of the Church were any thing amiss whilst they leaue manners so notoriously Vnreformed releasing all from the burthen of such Duties as Christians haue practised from the Beginning 10. Be pleased to reflect à little We haue thanks be to God in the Roman Catholick Church many Holy Religious Orders as Benedictans Dominicans Franciscans c. All had their The truth declared by two Instances seueral Founders most eminent in Sanctity and neuer medled with mending Church Doctrin knowing well that was sound and orthodox But contrariwise endeauored to better the world by their Prayers Preaching incessant labours and virtuous Example Suppose now any of these had called their Order à reformed Religion and brought Christians by that Reformation to greater Liberty to more Sensuality than was practised before Their Prayers and Preaching Would not all most deseruedly haue accounted their Labours mispent and worth nothing Suppose again that any one would begin to Institute à Religious Family with these or the like Iniunctions All of them may Marry prouided they keep Coniugal Chastity All may fast but when the humour takes them All may profess Pouerty but experience nothing of the hardship All may obey but in greater matters only not in others freely left to their choise Would not such à Founder vainly pretend to Reformation that laies no more Christian Duties on any Would not euery man look on him as One that peruerts Religion and laugh at his folly This is the case in our Protestants mending matters Therefore I say once more the Reformation is not from God but à humane and very sensual Inuention Enough is noted already both here and in the other Treatise of the Efficacy of our Catholick Doctrin Conuersion of Nations à great Miracle Demonstrable to our Eyes and Senses in the Conuersions of Nations to Christ Maximum Miraculum Saith S Thomas 1. Con. Gent. C. 6. It is the greatest of Miracles and à manifest Testimony that God Assisteth this Church to doe such wonders We pass now to consider some Truths grounded on the Doctrin already deliuered 11. One is and it giues comfort to euery Soul that our Lord IESUS Christ though Absent from vs liues yet as it were Visibly shewes himself Manifestly Acts still Miraculously in the Mystical Body of our Catholick Church and the seueral Members Thereof His Power appeares in Her Miracles Christ our Lord works yet in and with the Church His Wisdom in the learned the certainty of His Doctrin in the Churches Infallibility The Antiquity of his Truths in Her long continuance His Mercy appeares in the Charitable His Obedience in the Perfect Religious His Pouerty in thousands who haue left all for his loue His Submission in the humble his wearisom labours in the painful Missioners His Retirement in Her the Ermits His Patience in the mortified His Purity in Virgins the Efficacy of his Diuine word last mentioned in the Efficacy of the Churches preaching His Holy life appeares in Her Sanctity and finally his Sacred death in innumerable glorious Martyrs Frame then à right Idea of our Blessed Lord we behold The Church expresses our Sauiours perfections his admirable Perfections Shining in the Church And contemplating the Church we see to our vnspeakable Solace Christ Iesus as it were yet liuing working in it and by it 12. A second truth As Things in Nature are not first known by that we call Their interiour Essence but by outward Marks Qualities and Effects whereby we easily distinguish one from an other à Lyon for example from an Elephant but doe not so easily saith Aristotle distinguish their different essences known to few Just so we Discours at present and say the true Church is first euidenced by her Marks Signes and Motiues Miracles Antiquity Conuersions c. which being obiects of sense lie open to euery eye and Collectiuely taken make as I said aboue this beautiful Spouse as discernable from Heretical Societies as one Creature is from another by its outward Form and known Proprieties I do not Assert that The Church first known by Her Marks the Motiues lead to à Scientifical knowledge of the Churches Essential Doctrin
here and there he seem's to me à little obscure yea to build with one hand and to Pull down with the other How euer by what is clear we haue enough and may well refute his Errours 15. Page 19. In the Book now cited He takes leaue to blame all those who declare in behalf of the Protestant Church that it depart's or Separat's from the Church of Rome For Saith he seeing it hath bin granted in and by this Church euer since the Reformation that there is and alwayes was saluation to be had in the Church of Rome as à true Church though corrupted I am very confident that no Church can Separate from the Church of Rome but they must make Themselues thereby Schismaticks before God I grant 1. Such are Schismaticks as leaue this Church I grant 2. Saluation was and will euer be had in this Church Yet say 3. It is Calumny yea à plain Contradiction to grant Saluation attainable in this Church and to impeach Her of Errour or corrupted Do rin The Calumny Church Motiues either proue that Oracle pure in all She teaches or in Nothing is vnquestionable because the Marks the signes and exteriour Euidence of our Church already insisted on either proue her Gods Oracle as sound and faithful in all She teaches as the Primitiue Church was or conuince nothing What then can these Aduersaries ayme at Will they grant Her no less illvstrious in Marks and Motiues which induce to faith than the Apostical Church was and yet make Her à Monster à harlot and prefidiously false in proposing Faith Haue so many learned Doctors Age after Age taught Her Doctrin so many Martyts shed their blood In defense of it so many Saints wrought glorious Miracles to confirm it and after all can it vpon no proof but vpon à vain and most vniust Supposition be called false and vnorthodox Nothing can be more extrauagant You must therefore either deny the Euidence we plead by which is vndeniable or own this Church entirely sound in euery Doctrin proposed as Faith Whence it is that when Iewes Gentils and Hereticks conuert themselues to Catholick Religion drawn thervnto by the light of euident Motiues they frankly belieue no Part but all Church Doctrin without Exception And the Reason of belieuing thus Wholly and not The Reason of belieuing entirely and not by halfes by halfs is giuen aboue C. 5. 6. where we Demonstrate that if the Roman Catholick Church has erred in the proposal but of one Point of Faith and obliged Christians to belieue that vnder pain of Damnation She is not only traiterous to Christ and therefore can be belieued in nothing But moreouer at this present day there is no true Faith professed in the Christian world Contrarywise if She be true and vnerrable in all teaches She is to be belieued in euery Article without reserue 16. Now to the double Contradiction in the words alleged It is granted Saith Mr. Thorndicke that there is and alwayes was Saluation to be had in the Church of Rome as à true Church though corrupted I Answer this is implicatory For if true She is not corrupted in Doctrin or if corrupted in Doctrin She is not true Vnless one makes by meer fancy à Chimera of the Catholick Church and sayes à true Church may be corrupted which is impossible for truth excludes corruption Therefore no Orthodox Christian euer owned à Church partly true partly false You Sr say 2. Saluation may be had in this Church Very good Ergo Her Faith is sound able to produce The Contradiction euinced against this Author in euery soul Repentance the loue and fear of God and what euer els is necessary to acquire Heauen Or if it want this Essential Perfection and bring not men to à security of Saluation it is no Faith at all and consequently Catholicks must be damned for want of diuine Faith hauing no true Church to belieue in See more Disc 1. C. 21. n. 7. Finally wheras you Assert No Church can Separate from the Church of Rome but they must make themselues thereby Schismatieks before God The Inference Sr is true but most clear against your Selfe And proues that both you and the Protestant Party are Schismaticks before God and man too For this matter of Fact Viz. That you Separated from Protestants proued Schismaticks and rebelled against the Roman Catholick Church is as euident as That England once Catholick communicated with Rome in Points of Faith in the vse of Rites Liturgies Sacraments And afterward diuorced it self from that Communion Reply or tell vs you had cause to do so and so far only receded from this Church as She receded from Her Ancient purity You make again à false Supposition your Proof your self Iudge in à cause you haue nothing to doe with And the louely Spouse of Christ loyal and perfidious Chast and à harlot with one breath 17. Yet one word more You say the Church of Rome is à true Church wherin Saluation is had though corrupted One clear Inference against Mr Thorndick Hence I Argue Either you in England are now at this instant separated from this Church as it is True or not If separated from it as true the Reformation belongs to you only you are to cancel your own Errours according to the form of Doctrin in our Church for She if true is so far pure that she cannot be reformed And thus much you seem to grant P. 33. It is out of loue to the Reformation that I insist vpon such à Principle as may serue to re-vnite vs with the Church of Rome being well assured that we can neuer be well reunited with our Selues otherwise That not only the Reformation but the common Christianity must needs beâ—lost in the Diuisions which which will neuer haue an end otherwise What is this to say but to wish the English Church reformed by the Roman Catholick Therefore something if these quoted words bear sense is amiss not in the Roman but in the English Church which needs Reformation Now on the other side if you say the Roman Catholick was and is à true Church Another Inference as clear and that the English also is altogether as true as she or hath not separated from the Roman in matter of true Doctrin it followes ineuitably if the Supposition hold's that neither of them needs Reformation in matter of Truth for here we speak not of Rites and Ceremonies which are alterable To what purpose then is it to talk of reforming either Church in point of Truth when both are Supposed so true that neither can be reformed nor differ if true in faith from one another 18. Perhaps you may yea and must reply if your Discourse haue sense Though they are true in Doctrins called fundamental yet both haue their lesser corruptions and these need Reformation This is all that can be Asserted For if both are false in fundamentals neither of them at this day is the Orthodox
after our priuate perusing those few ancient Records left vs end our debate whilst you 'l turn them to one Sense and I to another Nouel Reason shall end all Catho That I wish for But quit me yet of one Scruple What if your priuate Reason be byassed one way and mine another Or what if you Iudge that Reasonable which I doe not Here the Nouellist like one struck dumb spake not à word 13. Yet the Discourse might well haue gone on for I would haue further inquired whether to do as all the Christians what is to be Iudged reasonable in the world learned and vnlearned haue done be not reasonable None can deny it Then I would haue inferred But all these Innumerable Christians The very Apostles themselues and others haue vpon prudent Motiues Constantly iudged it reasonable to submit to Mysteries aboue the reach of humane Reason Ergo that must pass as à reasonable Principle But the Reason cannot be taken from the very Act The Euidence of Credibility not taken from Faith of submission For that is Faith nor from any Euidence in the Mystery belieued or obscurely proposed nor finally from Scripture alone for that Book Considered in it selfe is not its own Euidence Therefore the Euidence of Credibility Or the Euidence Proposed to Reason is extrinsecal to what euer I belieue and fundamentally lies in the Marks and Signatures of Christs own manifested Church 14. Hence I Conclude with this Dilemma and hold it vnanswerable Either God has set before all Mens Eyes An Oracle which now teaches truth most discernable by clear Marks and Motiues from all false erring Societies Or omitted to do so Grant the first Reason is as much obliged to belieue A Conuincing Dilemma that Signalized Oracle now As the Primitiue Christians were anciently bound to belieue the Apostles Say Contrary There is no such Marked Oracle distinguishable from erring Sectaries Reason is left in à Labyrinth and shall neuer find out true Religion Wherefore Protestants who seemingly stand for Reason and slight the Doctrin of our Euidenced Sectaries vnreasonable Church are the men amongst all other most vnreasonable and as dayly experience teaches meer Scepticks in matter of Religion 15. A 5th Inference The readiest way to conuince à Sectary How they are easily Conuinced and one though no great Clerk may easily do it is in the first place at least to waue that long tedious work of handling particular Controuersies which depend vpon Authority and to plead by Reason Thus I would Argue and haue often done so with good Success You as à Protestant lay claim to à reasonable Reformation and consequently to à Reasonable Religion Say I beseech you from whence haue you the Moral Euidence which makes this Reformation Credible to Reason I speak not yet of it's Truth for Euidence of Credibility e 〈…〉 preced's the anouching of it true We Catholicks proceed candidly Euidence of Credibility is first to be laid forth and propose to the reason of euery one learned and vnlearned the very Marks and Signs of truth manifest in our Church which Christ our Lord and the Apostles euidenced to the sirst Conuerted Christians You set vp à new faced Religion and when that 's done put it out of Countenance because Reason sees nothing in it which has appearance of Credibility You auouch it true before you make it Credible which Sectaries auouch their reformation true before it be made Credible is to put the Conclusion before the Premises 16. One perhaps will Say first The reason of your Reformation stand's vpon this rational Ground that wee Catholicks were deformed or out of all right fashion in our Religion Lamentable And are you the doughty Doctors that must mend what was marred and prescribe à new Model of Religion Can you Say what is or what is not Catholicism It is too much Boldnes not only to teach more learned then They make à false supposition their Proof you Selues But à high Iniury also to make à meer Supposition and very false too to pass for à rational Proof You know wee deny your improbable Supposition And you vpon no Principle call it reasonable Howeuer Suppose the falshood that wee are out of Fashion doth it therefore follow that you are got into the right Mode of Religion No truly If the Supposition stand's wee are both out And both need à new Reformation 17. Some may yet Reply Sectaries regard not that new coyned word of Euident Credibility à Term wholly Popish They endeauour to proue the Truth of Protestancy by Scripture and Fathers And to do so much is more than to make it Credible Contra. 1. Were it possible as it is not to proue the truth of Protestancy That 's besides the matter here in hand They are still besides the matter now agitated whilst wee only Treat of ending Controuersies by Reason Now all know that Authority whose Credibility must first be Euidenced before it haue weight precisely considered as Authority is not the Reason here spoken of For Example I Assent to the Mystery of the Incarnation vpon Gods own Authority that 's Faith but no rational Inducement to belieue What we demand of Sectaries is to haue the rational Motiues which induce to belieue this Protestancy laid open before the Eyes of rational men Herein we require Satisfaction but haue none 18. Contra. 2. Could these men proue their Protestancy by If the Reformation could be proued true Scripture and Fathers it should Methinks be very easy to point at an Orthodox Church which Six Ages since publickly owned the particular Tenets of it Here is my Reason Whateuer Doctrin the Scripture and Fathers teach the Orthodox Church conceal's not but openly Professeth She is not ashamed if Orthodox to teach what God has reuealed Now further Some Orthodox Church must haue owned it Had such à Church euer owned this Reformation it must either haue been like an inuisible Ghost not perceptible which our Newer Sectaries Disclaim or contrarywise discernable by the like Marks and Signatures of the Apostolical Church And if their Doctrin was euer taught by it They are to talk no more of its Truth before Its Credibility be euidenced to Reason by the Marks and Signs of that Church which is now supposed to haue taught pure Protestancy That is in à word They are first obliged to Say plainly what Articles of Faith Protestants as Protestants hold Essential to their Religion And then to make so much Doctrin and no more first Credible then true by the known Authority of an Orthodox Church But This is impossible Hence 19. And it is the last Inference whereby one grand Cheat of our Sectaries is discouered Long haue we inquired but without Satifaction Where their Church was before Luther The Common Answer returned by some latter Protestants making little Account of an inuisible Church is much to this Sense Our Church was there where it now is and where it alwayes