Instruments of Cruelty are in their Habitations Cursed be their Anger for it was fierce and their Wrath for it wat cruel And we each one say O my Soul come not thou into their Secrets unto their Assemblies mine Honour be not thou united But let God divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel Mr. Bridge was not in Town then which may be supposed the Reason we find not his Name amongst the Subscribers As for W. B. whether his Writings be so faulty as they are charged to be in the Debates I cannot tell having not read them but a Conformable Doctor told me that he had searched them and that the Author of the Debate had dealt disingeniously in his quotations of him c. Quest. May not every whit as much be said for the Papists why they should be tolerated as to the publick exercise of their Religion as for Nonconformists Do not they profess all Loyalty to his Majesty and declare against all Rebellion Answ The Papists depend upon a forraign Power in Ecclesiastical Affairs superiour as they think to his Majesty And it was subscribed by twelve Bishops in Ireland as follows Their Religion is superstitious and idolatrous their Faith and Doctrine erronious and heretical their Church in respect of both Apostatical Whereas the Nonconformists whether Presbyters or Congregationists agree with the Church of England in the Doctrine of Faith and Sacraments differ not in any substantial part of Religion from her What the Papists practice hath been how dangerous to the Civil Peace the History of England in Q. Elizabeth's days can tell us That 't is impossible for any Nation to be free from Troubles or Treason so long as they suffer Jesuites amongst them saith Watson in his Quodlibets And that he and his Order were not so good and loyal as they pretended may be guessed from hence that he himself was afrerwards executed for Treason Moreover Papists cannot when they have power long live without persecuting Protestants saith a Reverend Doctor Hence may appear that we see K. H. III. of France stabb'd and lamn'd because he would not persecute them enough So the Answer to the Papists Apology p. 21. As for Quakers they may seem to be the very Spawn of the Romish Emissaries proselyted by them but made more dangerous to Magistrates and all Civil Society by this one Principle that they hold viz. That they ought to be guided and to act not by the Scripture nor according to the command of the Civil Magistrate or Spiritual Guides and Pastors but by and sudden Flash or Light within them I am not satisfied to have a hand in the Execution of the Sanguinary Laws against Papists yet should be loth to try how Sanguine or good natur'd they would be if they had power in their hands to execute the Writ De Haeretico comburendo If we may say of them as they use to say of Fire and Water They are good Servants I am sure 't is as true That they are but bad Masters Quest How can we agree to live quietly with these Nonconformists Are they not so much divided from us in their Judgement that they divide from us in their Language also and in fine would bring all things into a Babel of Confusion Cont. p. 1. Answ The greater number of them I presume speak as others do and conform to that ordinary phrase Well I thank God If any when enquired of about their Health say I am well through Mercy they do but as the French Protestants do they are surely few in comparison that say so commonly and I do not remember one Minister that useth to say so they that do possibly have recovered from some sickness or escaped some danger which occasions them to use this expression But if you will be critical some think it a sign of a greater humility to say I am well through mercy than the other I am well I thank God However it is not so liable to exception as to say I am well y' faith as I have heard that some Conformists do although Bishop Saunderson doth not approve of that language in common discourse We do not hold it unlawful to use the name of God in our Salutations as Boaz did and can say and pray God save the King as heartily as your selves I know â—o Nonconforming-Ministers that hold it unlawful to teach Children their Catechism Prayers lest they should take God's Name in vain And yet I must have leave to say that a reverend Bishop doth reckon that we sin against the third Commandment by an irreverend and customary mention of God's great and glorious Name upon trivial occasions and a learned Doctor in his Exposition of the third Commandment makes it a duty not to use the Name of God but with great reverence See Dr. Pat. Catech. Quest Are Nonconformists most guilty of breaking the third Commandment in the main sense See Cont p. 4. Answ Mr. Case Mr. Edwards and the London Ministers cited by the Author of the Debate in his Continuation all prove they were very tender of the breach of an Oath desirous to keep far from it themselves and to save others with fear plucking them out of the fire and the present ejected and dejected estate of the Nonconformists may testifie that they are such as fear an Oath The Presbyterians are bold to say in one of their Papers to his Majesty That the Obligation of the Covenant upon the Consciences of the Nation was not the weakest Instrument of his Return As to your citations out of Mr. John Goodwyn and Mr. John Lilborne I say there lyeth an Exception against the Witnesses in the Case as I suppose you might say if their Testimonies were produced against the Hierarchy Liturgy and Ceremonies Quest What may be the cause the Author of the Debate is so fierce against the Protestation taken by the Parliament before the War and which his late Majesty excepted not against when taken although he was then at Whitehall Answ The true Reason may be this because the House of Commons put out an Interpretation that by the Doctrine of the Church of England which they promised to maintain they meant onely the Doctrine in opposition to Popery and Popish Innovations and did not thereby oblige themselves or others to the maintenance of the Discipline and Government If that had been in 't is to be thought it would have gone down as easily with men of his way as the Et-caetera Oath did concerning which the Historian gives us this account That some Bishops pressed it on Ministers before the day required to take it by the Canon and enjoyned them to take it kneeling a Ceremony not exacted or observed in taking the Oath of Alleagiance and Supremacy Full. Hist 6.11 p. 17. Quest What is to be thought of the Continuation of the Friendly Debate Answ It seems to be an unfriendly Continuation of Debate and Strife contrary to the Act of Indempnity and to be a continued breach of
An Humble APOLOGY FOR Non-Conformists WITH Modest and Serious REFLECTIONS ON THE FRIENDLY DEBATE And the CONTINUATION Thereof By a Lover of Truth and Peace 1 Cor. 4.13 Being defamed we intreat 2 Cor. 6.8 As Deceivers and yet true Printed in the Year 1669. To the Readers THe Author of the Friendly Debate having smitten us on the face both on the right cheek and on the left lest our deep silence be brought in evidence to proclaim our guiltiness and so having lost our Livings we should lose our good Names also which ought to be dearer to us than our very Lives It may seem high time to Apologize for our selves and to make it appear to the World that we are not so black and ugly as we are painted nor so bad as we are represented Our Apology shall be that of the blessed Apostle St. Paul a little alter'd against whom also they brought many and grievous Accusations which they were not able to prove They have not found us in the Temples or Churches disputing with any man neither raising up the people neither in the Synagogues or places of Convention for Religious Exercises or in the City neither can they prove the things whereof they accuse us But this many of us confess That After the way that they call Schism and Phanaticism so worship me the God of our Fathers believing all things that are written in the Old and New Testament and in the Articles of Religion of the Church of England so far as concerns the Doctrine of Faith and Sacraments And are still ready to subscribe to all that the Learned and Famous Mr. Chillingworth saith was meant by Subscription namely That we are perswaded that the constant Doctrine of the Church of England is so pure and Orthodox that whosoever believes it and lives according to it shall be saved and that there is no Error in it which may necessitate any man to disturb the peace or renounce the communion of it Now this being our Judgment I humbly conceive we are acquitted from Schism in the Opinion of Mr. Chillingworth and ought to be so in the Judgement of that learned and judicious Bishop Saunderson who as I have been credibly informed being asked what he thought of the Subscription before mentioned said after he had read it and considered it I never subscribed in any other sense my self And that this Subscription might suffice in Equity and Conscience if the Supreme Authority should think fit my Lord Chancellor Bacon hath declared in his Considerations about Ecclesiastical Affairs tendred unto King James His words are these For Subscription it seemeth to be in the nature of a Confession and therefore more proper to bind in the Unity of Faith and to be urged rather for Articles of Doctrine than for Rites and Ceremonies and points of outward Government for howsoever politick Considerations and Reasons of State may require Uniformity yet Christian and Divine Grounds look chiefly upon Unity It is the Duty of all Christians to be zealous and to contend earnestly for the Unity of Faith and to labour with all their might with themselves and one another for unity of affections Luther's Motto becomes every good Christian In quo aliquid Christi video illum diligo That the most considerable Nonconformists are Sons of Peace and not Sons of the Coal may hence be argued That those who were Joynt-Commissioners for the Reformation of the Liturgy became humble and earnest Petitioners to their Fellow-Commissioners the Bishops and others their Assistants for peace That we are not generally such Boutefeu's and Incendiaries as we are charged to be may in part appear in this That we published no Answer for so long a time to two such angry and provoking Pieces as these And that little which is here done by way of Reflection is with so great moderation Doubtless if we had been utterly unable to have answered the Reason or Logick of these two Books we could not have easily failed of abundantly requiting the Author of them with Stories and Recriminations Were all the Irregularities and Impieties of Men of our own Coat though Canonical reckoned up and should we give our selves leave to look back thirty or forty years for matter of Accusation as the Author of the Friendly Debate sometimes doth we might fill whole Volumes with Errata's and might occasion the common Enemy of out Religion to triumph over and the common People to trample upon the English Ministry Had the Author we deal withal had like Charity with Constantine the Great or with King Charles the First of blessed memory he would rather have buried in silence the faults of the Ministry than to have exposed them whether real or imaginary to the Eye of the World to be beheld through a Multiplying and a Magnifying-glass as he doth Yea had he not come short of Mr. White the Centurist in his Charity he might have learnt of him not to have published a Second Part to blaze abroad the faults of his Brethren there being now no War to inflame him no Adversary by any Reply to provoke him The Non-conformists now outed being down on the ground down in the mire and yet perhaps neither so dirty or so much sullyed as were some formerly Sequestred there being neither Scandal nor Insufficiency so much as charged upon one of a thousand as any Reason or Cause of their Ejectment Had be used the like Candour towards the Non-conformists that Dr. Moulin doth towards the Romanists and which I believe he expects from us towards his own Party he would never have charged the faults and errors of a part upon the whole of a few upon all a very few excepted and so doing he might have spared wholly his Continuation and have much abridged his first Dialogue He needed not to have made so many blazes as he doth by so often firing men of straw of his own making nor so great a noise in the world by discharging so many great Guns against Castles in the Air of his own building But since he advanceth Reason so much in word upon all occasion we may wonder he hath made no more real use of it in his Discourse For say we might and think we can justifie it that his Words are more than his Matter his Rhetorick far beyond his Logick and therefore we choose rather that he should smite us with his Fist than with the Palms of his Hands I mean with his Logick rather than with his Rhetorick What Reason or Logick is in such a Discourse as this Mr. T. W. and Mr. W. B. have Printed such and such things therefore all or almost all the Non-conformists are so and so or Preach and Print thus and thus or else Mr. Lewes Hughes Mr. Viccars the two Mr. Bridges say or write thus Ergo this is the Way the Spirit and the Language of the whole Party Or one or two in a Kingdom or in the three Kingdoms and that too when the Kingdoms were all in a
Non-conformists as such yet I cannot but own my utter dislike of the Principles and Practises of some high Conformists or Hectors for Conformity namely such as prefer the Romish Church before the Reformed Transmarine Churches Arminius before St. Austine who judge Aerius a greater Heretick than Arrius who have more charity for those that deny the Deity of our Saviour than for those that scruple the strict jus divinum of Episcopacy and who can with more Patience hear a Dispute against the very Being of a Deity than about the taking away of a Ceremony that profess themselves the chiefest Sons of the Church of England and yet dissent from her Doctrine contained in the Articles Homilies and Liturgie and transgress the Laws of the Church about Rites and Ceremonies by going too far on the right hand or running too far before them and become Non-conformists themselves and breakers of the Act of Uniformity even by their extream Conformity These these are the Hectors I mean who when they have perswaded a man to strain hard to go a mile with them in Conformity will compel him to go twaine that are implacable Enemies to Non-conformists though peaceable and Pious and are no good Friends to Conformists except under the same degree of Longitude and Latitude with themselves Yea I may say that notwithstanding their pretended zeal ard devotion to the Hierarchy look on former Archbishops such as Grindal Whitgift Abbot as Puritans and would if they could Unbishop some of the present Bishops for Presbyterians As tor the Author of the Friendly Debate I hope better things of him and though he be a Champion for the Conformists cause and I differ from him in many things yet I must confess I do not look on him as one of the Hectors before described but I say of him rather Talis quùn sit utinam noster esset For I am confident that one of his parts learning and stile could easily make a Dialogue wherein the high Conformists should appear as simple and ridiculous as he hath made the Non-conformists My Petition my humble and hearty Petition is to the Fathers of the Church the most Reverend the Archbishops and the Right reverend the Bishops and to the Sons of the Church our Conforming Brethren That they would manifest their love to Peace by their condescentions and desires of Union with their dissenting Brethren and that there might be by the means of the Governours of our Church their Mediation with His Majesty and the Parliament some such Laws made as might for ever take away the differences 'twixt them and those that are for Moderation that still hold themselves Members of the Church of England though not admitted to be Teachers in it And Oh! that it were in their hearts as many of them as hold Communion with the Reformed Churches beyond Seas to offer such Bill or Bills to King and Parliament as might enable the Bishops to receive all again into the Bosom of the Church and to the Exercise of their Ministry who besides taking the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy to his Majesty can conform to what is necessary in other Reformed Churches And my earnest desire to all Nonconformists is That they love and follow the Truth and Peace that they endeavour after Union and Coalition however that they avoid Schism and Separation truly so called And especially that they keep far from that dividing Principle To imagine a thing of it self indifferent to be therefore unlawful because commanded by a lawful Authority and also from that grand Crime of the Donatists that unchurched all besides themselves My Protestation is this That whereas the Author of the Debate hath offered us Nonconformists many and great Affronts hath made so many hard and desperate Thrusts or Passes at us and hard thereby forced us at last to Draw in our own Defence That if he shall presently cause our Persons or Weapons to be arrested or seized therefore He may never more be proclaimed for a Couragious Champion nor the Nonconformists posted for base Cowards If the High Sons of the Church have the Liberty and Priviledge to throw Ink in out Faces the Sons of Adam the Sons of Peace and his Majesties good Subjects may have we hope a Toleration or Connivence to wipe it off These things premised Since the Author of the Debate hath so vehemently charged us and put in a First and a Second Indictment against us for Irreligion Disloyalty Schism Sacriledge c. We plead NOT GUILTY And put our selves upon the Tryal of our Countrey which be You. The Contents Page EVery transgression of humane Law not deadly p. 3 4. Nonconformists better treated in former times p. 7 8. Nonconformists not Schismaticks or Sectaries p. 10 11 12. Ordinations by Presbyters formerly counted valid by 〈…〉 p. 12 13 14. The Assemâ—â—y men cleared from countenancing Sacrilege p. 15 16. Non-conformists offer to clear themselves by Oath from Peevishness and Obstinacy p. 17. Nonconformists not like Pharisees p. 17. How Conformists and Nonconformists may be Reconciled p. 18 19. What Reformation was desired formerly by the House of Commons in the 30th Year of Queen Eliz. p. 21 22. Nonconformists not so rigid towards Dissenters as is pretended p. 22 23. Nonconformists Obedient to His Majesty Declared against the late horrid Murder of His late Majesty p. 26 27. Nonconformists do not deprive his Majesty Ecclesiastical Causes p. 32 117 11 Of Conformists and Non-conformists Charitâ—â— p. 34 35 Presbyterians no Changelings p. 37 Nonconformists use the Lords Prayer p. 39 Why some scruple some old Words as Altar Priest c. p. 41 42 Of keeping Holy-dayes p. 43 44 Of the Surplice p. 46 47 48 Conformists differ amongst themselves in many things p. 49 50 Of praying that we may Preach in the evidence anâ— demonstration of the Spirit p. 53 54 Of Praying by the Spirit p. 55 66. Of conceived Prayer and Prayer â—â—â—â—ok p. 59. Of Afternoon-Sermons p. 62. Of Catechising p. 64. Of divers modes of Preaching p. 60 69. Of Conventicles p. 61. Of Experimental Preaching p. 70 71. Nonconformists Preach Obedience to Magistrates p. 72 73. And to the Moral Law p. 75 77 78. Some Conformists Dissent from the Doctrine of the Church of England p. 80 81. Of Absolute Promises p. 83. Of Good Works in the matter of Justification p. 85. Of the difference 'twixt the Old and New Covenant p. 86. Non-conformists not Time servers p. 89. Of Holy Conference p. 96. Of Stage-Playes p. 97. Of Mr. T. W. p. 99 10. Of Mr. W. B. p. 100. A Declaration against Vennor and his Confederates by the Congregational Ministers p. 101. Non-conformists more tolerable than Papists and Quakers p. 102 103. The old Puritans peaceable p. 106. Modern Non-conformists compared with those in Queen Eliz. her dayes p. 111. Unity may be where there is not Uniformity p. 126. Presbyterians no Separatists p. 128. Presbyterians rather to be satisfied than Papists p. 131 132. The Divinity of Non-conformists not
a Phrase-Divinity p. 138. Of Ruling Elders p. 141. Of the Use of Reason in Theologie p. 143. Whether Arminians or Calvinists come nearest to the Doctrine of the Church of England p. 144. Non-conformists not like the Donatists p. 145. ERRATA Page 6. line 10. for gage read gauge p. 35. l. 18. f. Antiparistasis r. Antiperistasis p. 36. l. 13. f. humours r. honours p. 37. l. 17. f. Btailas r. Brayles p. 42. l. 12. f. Christmss r. Christmas p. 43. l. 14. f. leave r. leave p. 50. l. 3. f. Rigidissimos r. Rigidissimo's l. 12. r. if more c. p. 79. l. 24. f. mediatore r. mediatorem p. 80. l. 29. f. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 93. l. 23. f. aequilibro r. aeliquibrio p. 117. l. 7. f. disquet r. disquiet p. 119. l. 14. f. Academae r. Academiae l. 19. f. ni sialiter r. nisi aliter An humble Apologie for Nonconformists with modest and serious Reflections on the Friendly Debate and Continuation thereof c. Question WHat Reason can be given if there be no guilt in the Nonconformists that no Answer was given to the Friendly Debate for so long a time Answ Bishop Bramhal that learned Prelate may be their Advocate in this Case I hope the Sons of the Church will not disdain to hearken to a Father of the Church Those who have composed minds free from distracting cares and Means to maintain them and Friends to assist them and their Books and Notes about them do little imagine with what difficulty poor Exiles struggle whose minds are more intent on what they should eat to morrow than what they should write Bishop Bramhal of Schism pag. 275. Besides if an Answer had stolen forth without License would it not have been arrested for a seeming breach of a late Act about Printing and the Author of it according to the Divinity and Logick of the Friendly Debate pag. 3. concluded to be neither a good Subject nor a good Christian vide Deb. pag. 2. Edit 4. Quest. Whit Answer then can be made for printing this present Answer and Apology Answ The Intent and Design of Laws is the Conservation of the Publick Peace The Law is Just Uniform and no Respecter of Persons whether Conformists or Non-Conformists but binds all to the Peace and Good Behaviour alike doth not hold one Mans Hands whilst Another cuts his Throat or stabs him under the fifth Rib. If a Man be once and again violently assaulted he may lawfully defend himself The Author of the Debate hath smitten us on the one Cheek and on the other also hath reviled us and with his Pen persecuted us and said all manner of evil against us falsly In this case a dead and stupid silence might argue we were verily guilty concerning the Crimes laid against us If a man that is Charged Indicted and Arraigned refuseth to plead the Law adjudgeth him to be pressed to death Our blessed Saviour himself Apologized for himself and his Disciples So did Justin Martyr and Tertullian for the Primitive Christians The great and soul Blots which have been cast upon our Names by that Author would not soon out if no means or endeavors should be used to wipe them off Quest. But is every Transgression of a Humane Law though but penal so culpable of criminous as is pretended Answ I humbly conceive not And there are thousands of good Subjects and good Christians many of them good Sons and Daughters of the Church of England who did eat Flesh last Lent or last Fryday asking no Question for Conscience-sake in reference to any penal Law or Statute in that Case and who have not scrupled to bury their Dead in Linen though contrary to a late Act of Parliament And if you lay so great a Burthen upon every breach of a penal Statute how shall the Carrier long keep his Cart on Wheels or the Citizen long stand on his Legs for want of Trading by reason of an Act of Parliament requiring the Tire of the Wheels to be four Inches wide under the penalty of forty Shillings for each offence Quest. Is it not therefore enough to satisfie the Law to pay the Mulct or Penalty required in such Cases Vide Contin pag. 22. Answ Mr. Perkins famous both at Home and Abroad for his great Piety and Learning hath amongst his Cases of Conscience this Case Whether Students in Colledges and Members of Corporations are tied to observance of their Local Statutes under pain of Perjury In resolving whereof he hath something useful and pertinent to our purpose He saith That Statutes are of two sorts Principal and Fundamental or less principal the first sort belonging to the Being of the Society are necessary to be kept under pain of Perjury As to the lest principal namely Statutes that are for Order and Decency the Founder er Law-Maker exacts not Obedience simply but either Obedience or the Penalty because the Penalty is as much beneficial to the state of the Body as the other that is as actual Obedience And in this Case he doth not charge the Breach of any Local Statute with the crime of Perjury And Bishop Taylor in his Rule of holy Living Chap. 3. pag. 183. saith thus As long as the Law is obligatory so long our Obedience is due and he that begins a contrary Custom without reason sinneth But he that breaks the Law when the Custom is entred and fixed is excused because 't is supposed the Legislative Power consents when by not punishing it suffers Disobedience to grow up to a Custom And I have formerly learnt it for good Divinity That every meer or bare Omission to do a thing required by Law is not a sin extra casum scandali contemptus provided it be not done scandalously and contemptuously or with offence to our weak Brother and in contempt of the Magistrate Quest What 's all this to the Case of the present Nonconformists Do not they scandalously and contemptuously break the Laws in dwelling in and neat London and holding Religious Meetings commonly called Conventicles Vide Debate page 2. Answ Many of them have taken the Oxford Oath and are legally qualified to live in Corporations Others cannot possibly live in the Countries for want of a Livelihood I have heard of a Reverend Minister that going abroad to seek maintenance from well-disposed Christians being benighted lost his Way and his Life both being through cold starved to death Others perhaps will plead they cannot live peaceably in the Country I heard one and a principal one say He never looked towards the City nor ever should if he had not been driven out of the Country The Law of Nature teaches the Hart the Hare and all Creatures that are pursued to fly to the nearest and thickest Covert or hiding place I have heard Huntsmen talk of giving the Hare Law I do not well understand Forrest Law but I believe this is not meant by it That she shall have no mercy
remember saith the same judicious Author that the ancient and true Bonds of Unity are One Faith one Baptism and not One Ceremony one Policy And endeavour to comprehend that saying Differentia Rituum commendat unitatem Doctrinae Christs Coat was indeed without Seam yet the Churches Garment was of divers Colours The Presbyterian and Congregational Nonconformists do profess to agree in the main Doctrine with the Church of England contained in her Articles of Religion so as fully to embrace and constantly to adhere unto what is purely Doctrinal in them Besides the Presbyterians do not separate from the Church so as to set up Church against Church Altar against Altar but being thrust out of the Church themselves and the number of men and women dissatisfied about either some passages or Ceremonies in the Lyturgy so that they dare not receive the Sacrament in the way required in the publick Assemblies being very great they take occasion to meet for Religious Exercises in private for a time onely till a door be opened for them in the Church by the removal of some supsosed or real Corruptions in the publick Worship And the reason why some whilst they continue in the City do not frequent the Publick Assemblies may be this Because they are here by connivance onely and dare not be seen openly to out-face a Law But when they are in the Countrey they joyn with the Congregation where they reside protempore to shew their Union with the Church and Conformity to the Laws Nor are they therefore to be judged Schismaticks because they still hold internal Communion with all Christians and so with the Church of England with whom in some things they conceive they cannot communicate externally And there is not saith a Learned Bishop so great Conformity to be expected in Ceremonies as in the Essentials of Sacraments The Separation of the N.C. from the Ch. of Engl. is not total nor perpetual and a man may remove from his Fathers House it being infected with a purpose to come thither when all is clear and well again And their desire and prayer is still That they that went forth of their Churches weeping yet bearing good Seed viz. the Doctrine of Faith Repentance and Obedience to God and his Vicegerent may come again rejoycing bringing their Sheaves that is their Congregations with them Quest But is not this partial and occasionaâ— withdrawing of some Non-conforming Ministers and people from the publick Legal Assemblies justly charged with Schism Answ Hear what a Romish Doctor saith which is cited by Bishop Bramhal in his Treatise of Schism pag. 7 8. When there is a mutual division of two parts or Members of the Mystical Body of the Church one from the other yet both retaining Communion with the Universal Church which for the most part springs from some doubtful Opinion or less necessary part of Divine Worship quam cunque partem amplexus fueris Schismaticus non audies quippe quod Universa Ecclesia neutiam damnarit what side soever you take you are not a Schismatick c. Quest. Sith that divers of the Non-conforming Ministers had no Ordination but by theiâ— Brethren the Presbyters Can they be esteemed lawful Ministers Is such Ordination valid without Re-Ordination by the Bishops Answ Ordination by Presbyters without Bishops was adjudged valid by our former Bishops witness the Case of three Scottish Bishops consecrated in England in King James his dayes Take the History of it from Archbishop Spotsâ—ood who relateth the matter and manner of it â—hus A Question saith he was moved by Doctor Andrews Bishop of Ely touching the Consecration â—f the Scottish Bishops who as he said must first be â—rdained Presbyters at having received no Ordinaâ—ion by a Bishop the Archbishop of Canterbury Doctor Bancroft who was by said That thereof â—here was no necessity seeing where Bishops could not â—e had the Ordination of or by Presbyters must be esteemed lawful This applauded to by the other Bishops Ely acquiesc'd and at the day and place appointed the three Bishops were consecrated A. Spots Hist Book 7. p. 514. Dr. Field in his Book of the Church holds the Ministers lawful Ministers in the Transmarine Churches though ordained without Bishops and Dr. Thorndike in his Treatise relating to the Primitive Government of Churches hath so much charity as not to unchurch the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who have no Bishops pag. 202. The pious learned and famous Mr. Gataker never had any Episcopal Ordination but was ordained by Dr. Stern Suffragan of Colchester The Religious and Renowned Archbishop Usher in his Reduction set forth by Dean Barnard was of the Judgement that the Chor-Episcopi or Rural Deans might lawfully Ordain And this his Judgement was attested by Doctor Holsworth yea and very probably too by Bishop Brownrig and others of the Sub-Committee for Ecclesiastical Affairs in the beginning of the Long Parliament The Attestation is as followeth We are of the Judgment that the form of Government here proposed is not in any point repugnant to the Scripture and that the Suffragans mentioned in the second Proposition may lawfully use both the power of Jurisdiction and Ordination according to the Word of God and the Practice of the Ancient Church Quest But what great matter is it what the Modern Bishops or Doctors do or say in this Affair Is it not sufficiently known that Aerius is reputed an Heretick for this Tenet viz. For denying a superiority of Bishops above Presbyters And was not Ordination by Presbyters condemned by a Councel of the Ancient Church Answ Aerius is counted an Heretick for other Opinions also by Epiphanius for which our Brethren that Conform will acquit him of Heresie And the Reverend Learned and Laborious Dr. Stillingfleet hath given several Reasons why those Ordinations might be lawfully made void by the Councel in case they had been performed by a Bishop as because in another Bishops Diocess because sine Titulo c. Quest If the Presbyterians can be freed from Schism yet what can be said to clear them from the sin of Sacriledge either as Principals or Accessories Did not the Assembly put out Annotations on the Bible in those times and for fear of displeasing their Masters never meddle with condemning of Sacriledge Answ I answer The Notes commonly called the Assemblies Notes came out before the Assembly was convened and was none of their Act And this is taken notice of by some very considerable Persons in their Preface to the Reader before the Morning-Exercises printed 1659. â—n these words We have not without some regret â—bserved that the Large English Annotations in â—hich but some few onely of the late Assembly togeâ—her with some others had an hand are generally scribed unto the whole Assembly and usually carry â—â—e Name of the Assemblies Annotations as if done â—y the joynt Advice of that Grave and Learned Conâ—ention Yet further as to the places mentionâ—d in the Debate they were commented upon by â—e persons here mentioned That
To the Law or to the Gospel to his own Obedience or Good Works or to the Obedience of Christ Answ The ordinary method of Cure is first to search the Wound to the bottom and then to apply healing Remedies first to pour in Wine and then Oyl Our Physitians use first to purge or vomit their Patients and then to give Cordials So spiritual Physitians till the Patient be truly and rightly sensible of his sins they send him to the Law for by the Law comes the knowledge of sin the horrid nature and demerit of it but then for Comfort they send him to the Gospel to this soveraign Balsom yea they pour on them the Oyl of Gladness upon whom they perceive has been the Spirit of Heaviness They say not Physitian heal thy self but rather send them to the Great Physitian by whose stripes we and they are healed We dare not trust in our own Righteousness but in the Lord our Righteousness Quest Do not Nonconformists as they desire liberty from the Impositions of Men in the Worship of God so preach up liberty from the Commandments of God in the Course of their Lives Or at least do they not lift up their Voice like a Trumpet when they publish the Gospel but onely speak in a small and still Voice when they treat of Obedience to the moral Law Answ 'T is an unjust Calumny cast on the Protestants by the Papists That they are Solifidians and against good Works And 't is an uncharitable censure of the Nonconformists by the Author of the Debate that they do not preach obedience to the Moral Law as well as Faith in Christ and the Duties of the second Table of the Law as well as of the first Whoever reads the Assemblies Confession of Faith their Larger and Shorter Catechism M. Dod on the Commandments Mr. Anthâ—â— Burgess his Vindiciae Legis may see clâ—â—â— that the Nonconformists are not Libâ—â—â—â—es â—â—â—â—gh they desire some Liberty and that thou 〈◊〉 pray to be delivered and freed from humane ceremonial Laws as God has freed them from the Ceremonial Law of his own making yet they are not Antinomians they commend and in Gods name require Obedience as well as Faith Doing as well as Believing they commend Moral Honesty but prefer Piety We deny him to be a truly godly man that is not a good honest man we deny him to be righteous before God that endeavours not to approve himself righteous in his dealings with men We would not by any means break the two Tables by dashing them one against the other and yet we prefer the Gospel before the Law Christ to Moses the second Covenant to the first that of Grace to that of Works Quest Is not Obedience then to the Moral Law the Condition of our Justification See Debate p. 13. Answ No 'T is not the Condition and Qualification of the Covenant so properly D. M. as 't is of those Persons that enter into the Covenant Faith justifieth the Person before God and Obedience justifieth the Faith before men Obedience saith a Reverend Author must be in the same Subject with Faith but it hath not a Voice in the same Court We do not cry down mans Obedience when we cry up the Obedience of Christ as the matter of our Justification and the Imputation of it as the form of our Justification We dare not appear before God in our own filthy Garments and menstruous Cloaths We expect a Blessing from our Heavenly Father when we are arrayed with the Robes of our Elder Brother Jesus Christ his Righteousness which sends up a sweet smell in Gods Nostrils Quest Is Faith or believing in Christ a coming to Christ or a relying on Christ for the pardon of our sin See Debate p. 43. Answ Yes John 7.37 38. there coming to Christ and believing are all one And to what end Sinners are called to come to Christ we my learn from our blessed Saviour Mat. 11.28 namely That they may find rest I believe in God saith Bishop Nicholson in his excellent Exposition of the Church-Catechism as if I said I put my whole trust hope and confidence in him I â—ely upon him And so may Faith in Christ I â—hink be very well described to be a relying on Christ for the pardon of our sins and all good â—hings If my memory fail not I have often â—eard that Renowned Professor Dr. Samuel Ward deliver it for good Doctrine in the Chair That Faith was Recumbentia in Christum Mediaâ—re c. a Recumbency on Christ for the pardon of â—ins .. One Mr. Down that wrote too against Separation defineth Faith to be a rest of the Will upâ—n Christ and his merits for Justification and consequently Salvation And the same Author obâ—erves that the Hebrew words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all words equipollent in the old Testament and what is meant by them in the Old Testament is expressed in the New by Believing To instance in one Trust in the Lord with thy whole heart saith the Old Testament Prov. 3.5 If thou believest with thy whole heart or with all thy heart saith the New Act. 8.37 We may define Faith thus It it a gracious habit infused into the Heart by the Spirit of God whereby the Soul rests or rolls it self upon Christ for all things appertaining to Life and Godliness for Gods Glory and its own Salvation Quest. Who are the greatest Enemies to the Church of England and to Religion it self those who bring in new and strange Doctrines or those that dissent onely from her as to the Ceremonies Answ Those that differ in Substantials 〈◊〉 Religion are to be thought more to differ thâ—â— those that differ onely in Circumstantials and those ought to be reputed the greatest Nonconformists who do not conform to the Doctrineâ— the Church of England set forth in her Articles Homilies and Liturgy Quest. Who are they Answ Even many that have been conformable enough as to Ceremonies their Names anâ— Tenets you may find in a Book entitled Laudeâ—sium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in another called Laâ—densium 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who they were thâ— maintained these Doctrines and their Doctrinâ—â— in some measure also you may find in Mr. Rushworth's Collections and others who have written the History of the Times immediately preceding the late Wars I shall refer you to one and that is Dr. Fuller in his Church-History who relates that it was complained of to the Sub-committees for Religion in Parliament of which Sub-committee the Bishop of Lincoln the Bishop of Armagh the Bishop of Durham the Bishop of Exeter Dr. Sam. Ward Dr. Hacket Dr. Holdsworth and others were Members that all the Tenets of the Councel of Trent abating only such points of State-Policy against the King's Supremacy as were made Treason by the Statute Good works Co-causes with Faith in Justification private Coufession by particular ennumeration of sins needful necessitate medii to Salvation that the Oblation
or as others the Consumption of the Elements in the Lords Supper holdeth the nature of a true Sacrifice Prayers for the Dead lawfulness of Monastical Vows the gross substance of Arminianism and some dangerous points of Socinianism had been preached or printed by some amongst us Quest If it should be proved true that the high Conformists should warp somwhat from the Doctrine of the Church of England yet have they not all and alwayes been constant and firm to the Government to King and Parliament and great admirers of what their Superiors do and say Answ Dr. Heylyn tells us that he cannot reckon the death of King Edward the sixth for an infelicity of the Church of England for being as he saith ill principled in himself and easily enclin'd to imbrace such counsels as were offered to him it is not to be thought but that the rest of the Bishopricks before sufficiently impoverished must have followed Durham and the poor Church left as destitute of Lands and Ornaments at when she came into the world in her natural nakedness The above-named Dr. Heylyn in his History of the Reformation chargeth the Grandees at Court and in the Parliament of those times with such vices and crimes as our Adversaries may make use of to blemish our Reformation All which with some other considerations may give occasion to some to think that what the Devil said falsly and maliciously against Job may a little altered be too truly and without breach of charity said of some high blades Do they fear and honour the King and Parliament for nought Have they not made a hedge about them and about their house and about all that they have on every side and their Substance is encreased in the Laud But let but King and Parliament put forth their hand now and touch all they have and they would if not for fear of punishment curse them to their face Quest Is there any other absolute promise besides that of sending Christ into the World Answ Yes many As that Gen. 9.9 not to drown the World any more That of calling of the Gentiles Gen. 49.10 The promise of the Conversion of the Jews as is generally thought Rom. 11. The promise of giving Christ the Heathen for his inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession Psal 2. And that Isa 53. He shall see his Seed he shall prolong his days and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hands That Christ shall have a Seed to serve him that Christ shall certainly and infallibly save some and the Lord knows who are his That he hath not shed his Blood in vain like water spilt on the ground that this glorious Head of the Church shall certainly have a Body in some measure answerable and suitable to the Head c. The promise of First Grace is thought to be absolute I will take away your heart of Stone and give you a heart of Flesh 'T is confess'd we are bid to convert and turn and to come to Christ and to make our selves new hearts and yet 't is as true that we cannot do any of these things of our selves without Divine Assistance and special Grace But this for out Comfort That which is the matter of Duty in one place of Scripture is the matter of a Promise in another And again That Gospel-Commands are not onely significations of out Duty but Conveyances of strength to do our Duty Quest Is not Mr. W. B. absurd in comparing Gods people to Plate Answ I answer There is Scripture-ground enough to justifie the calling of Gods people his Plate for in Scripture they are called Gods Jewels or his peculiar Treasure Psal 3.17 And obdurate wicked men are compared to Reprobate Silver Jer. 6.30 Quest. May we not say That we come to the Promises by Christ Answ In him are all the Promises Yea and in him Amen 2 Cor. 1.20 As a woman hath a right to her Joynture by first taking the man to her wedded Husband so Christians have a right to the Promises and all good things by taking Christ first for their Lord and Husband Quest. Is fear the chief and principal motive of a Christian to Duty and Obedience I mean the fear of punishment Answ No The chief and best Principle is Love I look on them as of a lower form in Religion who onely serve God for fear of Hell Although this fear is useful yet 't is not the principal motive to obidience in Gods Children And this was the Divinity of former time I do not hold it unlawful to serve God for fear of punishment nor hopes of Reward yet this I say That fear alone speaks a man a Servant and love speaks a min a Son And those are the best Servants to Vertue who serve virtutis amore for the love of Vertue A man may hate the good he doth and love the evil which he doth not do If then a man do that which is commanded meerly or chiefly for fear of Hell is be necessarily one of Gods best Servants I think not because he may at the same time hate the good he doth and love the evil he abstains from As for working with an eye to the Reward intuitu mercedis 't is justifiable and commendable 't is that which Moses did Heb. 11.26 and which our blessed Saviour did and it sufficeth the Servant to be as his Master Christians to be Followers and Imitators of Christ their Lord and Master Quest. Are good Works necessary to our Justification Debate p. 13. Answ The Church of England in her 11th Article teaches her Children thus We are righteous before God onely for the merit of the Lord our Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith and not for our own Works or Deservings Wherefore that we are justified by Faith onely is most wholsom Doctrine and very full of Comfort c. And in her Book of Homilies Tom. 1. pag. 17. Edit 1623. thus Justification is not the Office of man but God or man cannot make himself righteous by his own Works neither in part nor in whole for that were the greatest arrogance and presumption of Man that Antichrist could set up against God Quest Hath the Doctrine of the Imputation of Christs Righteousness for our Justification been the Doctrine of our Church and the prime Doctors of it Answ The Papists indeed call it with a jeer Putative Righteousness And 't is storied of a Popish Bishop lighting accidentally on that place Rom. 4.6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth Righteousness without Works c. threw away the Book in great displeasure and said O Paule an tu quoque Lutheranùs factus es O Paul art thou also become a Lutheran 'T is observed by 〈◊〉 Conforming Minister that the Apostle Paul mentions this grace of Imputed Righteousness ten times in the 4th chapter to the Romans and Bishop Andrews in his most excellent Sermon on that Scripture Jehova Justitia nostra His naâ—â—
shall be called The Lord our Righteousness and B◠Downham in his Treatise of Justification strongly asserts it And the Doctors of the Chair for 〈◊〉 long time have taught the same Doctrine So that now I should think that Doctor though in the Chair to be besides the Cushion that teaches otherwise Quest Is the difference betwixt the Old and New Covenant this that the Old Covenant made with the Jews propounds temporal rewards and the Gospel propounds eternal and hath this been the Doctrine of the Church of England and of the prime Doctors since the Reformation Deb. p. 26. Answ The 7th Article of the Church of England saith thus The Old Testament is not contrary to the New Both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to mankind by Christ who is the only Mediatour between God and man wherefore they are not to be heard which say that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises Quest Do not Nonconformists abuse the people in their preaching by preaching in the Apostolical language That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you Answ I think the Prophet David doth not abuse himself and others when he saith O taste and see that the Lord is gracious Nor the Apostle Paul the Ephesians when he tells them that Jesus Christ came and preached peace to them that were near and to them that were afar off Nor the Galatians when he saith Jesus Christ was evidently set forth crucified amongst them Neither doth Job juggle or cast a mist before his own and others eyes when he saith with these eyes he shall see his Redeemer although we take the interpretation of Mercer on the place of his Recovery here What though the Apostles saw our Saviour in the flesh heard his Sermons and conversed daily with him may not Christians now-a-dayes see him with an eye of Faith in his Word and Sacrament and hear him when he speaks to us in the Writings of the Apostles as it were from Heaven and by the mouthes of his Ministers upon Earth Must no passage or phrase of Scripture be used but in its first signification sure we are that many places of the Old Testament are used in the New chiefly or only by way of accommodation Quest Do the Nonconforming-Ministers amuse and abuse the people when they speak of Spiritual desertions Answ Who so please to read Mr. Perkins his Cases of Conscience Mr. Capel on Temptations and Dr. Sibbs his Souls Conflict although they never saw Dr. Goodwyn may see a Child of Light walking in Darkness And in such a case I would not send for as Saul did one to play upon at Instrument Nor with a Conformist Minister that I knew when his Daughter was in trouble of mind for her sins counsel her to play at Cards Or with another how learned soever they be send them to a Theatre but either to some able Minister or to Prayer the Promises advising them to put them in suit in the Court of Heaven for 't is God only that kills and makes alive he wounds and he heals In his presence is life and his withdrawing or deserting of the soul though for a time only is as the shadow of death If our blessed Lord on the Cross cryed out My God my God why hast thou forsaken me what so great wonder if a Christian under the Cross oft-times complains Why hidest thou thy face and I am troubled Is the Servant above the Master If these things be done in the green tree what shad be done in the dry Quest Are the Nonconformists Time-servers Deb. p. 65. Answ If so why do they not serve the Times now and themselves of the Times Certain it is there are some now Nonconformists whose consciences would not permit them to serve the Times in Bradshaw's or O. Cromwel's dayes divers who were turn'd out for not taking the Engagement have since been outed for Nonconformity They could not serve the Times then and the Times will not serve them now Can ye think we are such Bedlams as to chuse sorrow and suffering Bonds and Imprisonments when we might so easily escape all sufferings and have all honourable imployment in the Ministry and some of us perhaps preferment and advancement like our Brethren that conform Quest Do not the Nonconformists call the Liturgy Broth Answ I never did so and I approve not any that do yet possibly the expression might first be occasioned from that saying of Bishop Bonners formerly mentioned upon our retaining some part of their Service-Book and Ceremonies If they taste of our Broth they may one day come to eat of our Beef And here let me tell a story I have heard that a conformable Minister invited a Friend or Friends to his House to eat a piece of Collect-Beef so he called Beef roasted on the Lord's-day and kept usually cold in the house all the week with allusion 't is to be supposed to the Rubrick which ordinarily enjoyn◠the Collect for the Lords day to be read all the week after I think this Conformists Beef alike unsavory expression with the Nonconformists Broth. Quest Do not Nonoonformists generally reproach and revile the Conformable Ministers for their reading the Common-Prayer and for their Grave and Decent Habits which they wear and do not Nonconforming-Ministers teach them so to do Answ If any there be who scorn or mock at grave godly sober persons for their reading the Liturgy or for their Cassocks Girdles and the like Take them Donatus for me Suppose some few rude persons should slight a Minister for his Cassock are there not others that mock and jeer at those that want the Canonical Habits How many are there that preach not except they have a fling at Nonconformists Are not Nonconformists scorned and scoffed at on the Stage from the Press and from the Pulpit How are they jeered at and made a May-game by this in name Friendly but really Unfriendly Debate 'T is to be thought the Author of it did never seriously consider that saying Non est major confusio quam serii joci and that other of my Lord Bacon That it is an inlet to Atheism to bring the exercise of Religion into contempt in the persons of sundry Preachers Fol my part I esteem it a point of serious and solid Godliness to love honour reverence Piety Gravity Learning and true Worth whether in Conformists or Nonconformists I look upon it as no good evidence that a man is of the higher form in Religion to magnifie and multiply the weaknesses or miscarriages of a few Dissenters to the vilifying and reproach of all or the generality of them As 't is an argument of an unjust Steward instead of an hundred to write fourscore or fifty so is it of a false and bad Accomptant instead of twenty to set down fifty fourscore or an hundred 'T is the method and way of God whom we ought to imitate to overlook the failings of them that are sincere
committed Surely they are as tolerable in a Church where the Supreme Power thinks good to establish that Order as are Chancellors Commissaries c. But in case that some Presbyterians of old held them of use in the Apostles days this alone without an Institution and an Injunction to perpetuate them doth not make them or any other Ecclesiastical Officers unalterable for we see that the Office of Widdows is laid aside in the Church notwithstanding Quest Did not the Presbyterians wholly lay aside the use of the Lords Supper And was it not for want of Ruling Elders Answ They celebrated the Lords Supper in London and that too in some Churches once a Month and frequently at Oxford and I suppose in many other places Possibly the expectation of a settlement might hinder the Administration of that Ordinance for a time in many places Bur I knew a Parish where it was a long time disused though desired because the Parishoners did not provide though oft urged unto it by the Minister decent and necessary Utensils for the Celebration of it Quest Do the Nonconformists decry all use of Reason in Theology Answ They use frequently Reasons in their Sermons Indeed they allow Reason but the second place in Divinity to Revelation they give the first Reason and Philosophy they make to be the Handmaids but Divinity they honour as their Soveraign Lady and Queen Reason is the Counsellor but Revelation is the Law-giver We say the Light of Reason is as the Light of a Glow-Worm or of a Candle or if you will needs have it as the Light of the Moon but the Light of Divine Revelation is as the Light of the Sun when it shineth in its full strength Dr. T. And with a reverend and learned Doctor we allow the use of a Candle although we would have it snuffed and when it is set up in the house we would not have the Window shut either to keep our or at least to darken the Light of the Sun We prefer feeding on Manna before feeding on Acorns and Husks the Commands of St. Paul before the Precepts of Plato the Mass of Gold in the Mine before a few pieces of Silver scattered here and there in the Studies of Philosophers Quest Do the Congregations of those that dissent from the established Worship consist mostly of Army Saints Answ I have heard one that hath reason to know upon many Accounts better than the Author of the Debate say That there is scarce a fifth person of those that meet privately that was engaged in the late Differences And that the greatest part of the late Army are at this day Members of Parochial Churches is an even Wager Quest Do the Arminians or Calvinists come nearest to the Doctrine of the Church of England Answ The profound pious and learned Doctor Samuel Ward that was the La. Margaret's Professor of Divinity in Cambridge whose Determinations are set out by the great pains and care of the Right Reverend Seth Lord Bishop of Sarisbury in a Sermon of his Ad Clerum and dedicated by himself to the University of Cambridge testifies That as the whole Church of God ever since St. Austine so in particular the National Church of England and the University of Cambridge from the Reformation and all the Professors except onely one Baro were against Arminius his Tenets And this Baro within two years was forced to leave the Chair by the Power and Authority of Archbishop Whitgift Illud etiam verè adjicere possum plus uni Augustino jam veterano in ista causa versatissimo tribuendum esse quà m centùm Corvinis Grotiis Vorstiis Bertiis Tilenis id genus recentioribus Dogmatistis Accedat illud coronidis loco Augustino semper ad baesisse hac ex-parte Ecclesiam Universalem ab ejus temporibus Ecclesiam item Anglicanam ab initio Reformationis c. Quest Is the case of the Donatists and the case of the Non-conformists alike Answ The Donatists as they had no cause in regard of the Faith by reason of any dangerous Doctrines or Practices imposed on them to cease from communicating with any part of the Catholick Church so they divided from the whole Church with the breach of Charity condemning it for no Church and drawing the Communion wholly to themselves The Nonconformists do not condemn the Church of England as no Church they do not confine the Communion to themselves they humbly pray a Reformation of some things which they conceive amiss and are willing to have Communion with them as Parts of the Catholick Church saving the Practices wherein they differ they leave them to their Liberty and desire a Liberty for themselves to serve God according to their Consciences The Presbyterians shewed their Charity in their earnest endeavours to save the life of Dr. Hewit an Episcopal Dr for which purpose they joyned in an Address to O. C. the only Address they ever made unto him Neither Presbyterians nor Congregationists charge the Episcopalians for being Schismaticks because they do not communicate with their Congregations and yet they look upon themselves as true Churches of Christ and both for Doctrine and Discipline to come as near the Scripture-Patern as themselves They offered to Unite and Reconcile with the Episcopal-Clergy upon Christian terms before His Majesties Return and since As for out Brethren of New England they are of Age let them answer for themselves As for our Congreational Brethren at home I lately heard that Dr. Goodwin should profess to hold Communion even with the Lutheran Churches And Dr. Owen professeth against all Impositions and that 't is his Judgment That the Episcopals and Presbyterians be left to worship God as they judge in their Consciences best That for his part he judgeth no man for his Conformity provided he be not a Persecuter of those that cannot Finally The Presbyterians for themselves desire much rather a Reformation or well stated Comprehension than a Toleration and are against Schism and Separation truly so called as much as any which they have sufficiently evidenced by their constantly declared Opinions and Practice They would be glad to see the day when being eased of burdensome Impositions they might have opportunity to manifest this their sincere desire of Union and Coalition with the Church of England A Postscript to the Author of the Friendly Debate SIR YOu have dealt with us as the Jewes did with our Blessed Saviour blindfolded us smitten us in effect bid us Prophesie who it is that smote us Some ghesses have been who you are by the roughness of your hand and the smartness of the blow I have not taken upon me thus to shoot in the dark and yet pretend to hit the Mark Nor will I go about to pull off the Vizor you put upon your own face but to wipe off the dirt which you have cast on ours To this purpose I pray you after these premised Reflections by me on some Passages in your Friendly Debate c.
of Rom. 2.22 â—y Dr. Featly an Episcopal Doctor and a Reveâ—â—nd man a great Sufferer for his Majesty in the â—te times That of Ezek. by Dr. Richardson Biâ—hop of Ardagh in Ireland a person of great Learâ—ing and worth and that in Genesis by Mr. Leigh â—ho was Sub-Dean of Chester As for the Asâ—embly when they sat and acted as an Assembly â—â—en in those days they did dare to condemn â—â—mony and Sacriledge both as Sins against the seâ—ond Commandment as you may read in the â—â—rger Catechism and they cite those two Scriptures for the proof thereof Romans 2.22 Malachy 3.8 And as these were their Principles against the Alienation of Church-Means so they made it their business to preserve the Lands and Revenues of the Church from Spoil and Rapine The Bishops Temporalties were engaged foâ— great Sums of Money before ever the Assembly met and I never heard that the Parliament advised with the Assembly about the sale of them Yet this is certain that the Tythes belonging to the Bishops were kept unsold and reserved foâ— the Churches use and all the Dean and Chapters Lands left untouched even by that Parliament which if over any Was the Presbyterian Parliament until their Members were seized on secluded imprisoned and driven away bâ— the Army They were not Friends to the Hierarchy if we believe Dr. Heylin in his Cyp. Angâ— who designed the buying in of all Impropriations and if we credit Dr. Fuller in fifty year they would have bought them all in And in after times when great Attempts were made tâ— sell the Tythes and Glebe Lands it was withstood zealously and effectually for it was prevented under God chiefly by the means of the Presbyterians and their Friends in the City and Country To conclude will you have Mr. Knoâ— the Fore-man of the Presbyterians his Judgement about Sacriledge For John Knox as saitâ— Archbishop Spotswood 't is clear by his Sermons and Writings still extant that he held it a point of high Sacriledge to rob and spoyl the Church of Tythes Quest Is it not very pride self-conceitedness humour peevishness yea and very obstinacy that occasions their Non-conformity Answ Some of the Nonconformists of old and of late have offered to purge themselves by Oath from so great Crimes in the Case And others have in the Pulpit in their Farewel Sermons protested the contrary and that it was meet Conscience of Duty and fear of Sin which caused their Inconformity Quest Are the Nonconformists justly compared to the Pharises See Cont. p. 138. Answ No The Pharisees in our Saviours time were great Zealots and Sticklers for the Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion and particularly for mens Traditions and Humane Inventions were high Conformists themselves men in Power and Place in the Church and great Haters and Persecutors of the Nonconformists of their times Quest Can any man that is not either very simple or very scrupulous question any thing in the publick Worship in the Liturgy or Ceremonies Is not the Liturgy so perfect that nothing can be added to it or taken from it Answ It was not always so Time was and that but in the year 1644. when learned Mr. Chillingworth preaching before King Charles the First at Reading used these words At what time soever a Sinner doth repent him of his Sins from the bottom of his heart I will put all his wickedness out of my remembrance saith the Lord saith thus The plain truth if you will hear it is The Lord hath not said so these are not the very words of God but the paraphrase of men and by reason of the mistake to which it is subject I fear very often a pernicious paraphrase The Right Reverend the Bishops have done very well to remove this stumbling block at the beginning of the Liturgy O that they would go on to remove out of the way every thing that offends That the Lessons out of the Apocrypha-Books might be either exchanged altogether for the Canonical Scripture or at least reduced to that small number that was appointed in the late Scottish Liturgy where were appointed onely two Chapters out of the Apocrypha one out of Ecclesiasticus the other out of the Book of Wisdom That the new Translation of the Psalms might be read as well as of the Epistles and Gospels That the three Ceremonies the Cross in Baptism the Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament whether nocent or innocent night be removed out of this as out of divers other Reformed Churches by means of the Bishops Mediation with his Majesty and the Parliament on that behalf as was thought advisable by the Sub-Committee for Religion whereof the Bishop of Lincoln had the Chair and Bishop Brownrig Dr. Holsworth Bishop Hacket c. were Members Or at least that the use of them might be free according to his Majesties gracious Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs I wish that of my Lord Verulam might be always sounding in the Ears of the Fathers and the Sons and Daughters of the Church till they give ear to it That a contentiâ—us retaining of Custom is a turbulent thing as â—ell as Innovation Methinks 't is as possible for Nonconformists and Conformists to be reconciled â—s for the Church of England to be reconciled with Rome and yet that great learned Bishop Bramhal thought that not altogether impossible â—upposing saith he that something from whence Offences either given or taken which whether right 〈◊〉 wrong do not weigh half so much as the Unity of Christians were put out of Divine Offices which â—ould not be refused if animosities were taken away Bramh. of Sch. p. 280. To this let me add that Golden Saying of Mr. Hales in his little piece â—f Schism Prayer Confession Thanksgiving Reading of Scripture Administration of Sacraments 〈◊〉 the plainest and simplest manner were matter â—ough to furnish out a Liturgy though nothing eiâ—her of private Opinion or of Church Pomp of â—arments or prescribed Gestures of Imagery or Musick of matter concerning the Dead of many superfluities which creep into the Church under the name of Order and Decency did interpose it self Quest Is there any thing that can reasonably or modestly be desired to be amended or bettered in the managery of the Ecclesiastical Government or Discipline Answ The Rubrick before the Commination in the Liturgy supposes it desirable that the Primitive Discipline used in the beginning of Lent might be restored when notorious Sinners were put to open penance Is nothing amiss saith my Lord Bacon Can any man defend the use of Excommunication as a bare process to lacquey up and down for Duties and for Fees it being the greatest Judgement next unto the General at the laâ—â— day Lord Bacon his Discourse about Church-Affairs p. 32. And might we not say That it seems liable to exception that Chancellors and Commissaries and Officials persons not in holy Orders should have power of Excommunication I have read indeed that the French King hath the power of Excommunication but it may be
In the Presbyterians Address to his Majesty they assert the lawfulness of Episcopacy and of a Liturgy The mention of the names of many Bishops both in the beginning of Reformation and of later times are precious to them like an Oyntment poured forth the memory of them is and shall be in Benedictione And there have been never any so bad since as to make soâ—er persons to condemn all There are still of the Hierarchy men of that piety learning temperance meekness and moderation that we despair not if some Boutefeau's and Incendiaries would cease blowing the coals might be the happy Instruments to quench the Fire and be like the good Shepherds who bring home their Sheep when gone astray in their very bosoms and with their Benedictions There are also amongst Dissenters many sons of peace who love not to fish in troubled waters or to blow the coals great friends to Unity Peace and Order and no enemies to Bishops who either keep no Private-Meetings or therein disswade not the people from frequenting the Publick-Assemblies or hearing their Ministers or Liturgy Quest Have not they that took the Covenant â—bjured all Episcopacy Answ It was declared in the Assembly before the Covenant was taken that the Covenant did not bind against a Primitive-Episcopacy and at the time of taking the Covenant this was frequently declared in private conference and some did it from the Press and Pulpit However the Covenant obliges men to act only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they may it doth not 〈◊〉 men to be seditious in the State or schismatical in the Church tâ— bring about any alteration or reformation of Government We are far from thinking say the Presbyterians in their Paper of Proposals to his Majesty speaking of the Covenant that it obligeth us to any evil or to go beyond our places and callings to do good much less to resist Authority tâ— which it doth oblige us p. 13. We ought not to use violent tumultuous seditious or any unlawful mean to bring about a Reformation Notwithstanding the Covenant we acknowledge it belongs to his Majesty with the advice of the Parliament to settle and regulate the Church Government And it may be remembred that Presbyterian Parliament voted his Majesties Concessions a ground of Peace although he never consented to the extirpation oâ— Episcopal-Government Quest. Were the Presbyterians bound by the Covenant to divest his Majesty of his supremacâ— in Ecclesiastical Affairs See Debate pag. 168 4. Ed. Answ An Oath for confirmation ought to be an end of all strife They have since generally taken the Oaths of Supremacy and Alleagiance not above six that I hear of refused it in all Scotland And on the other side 't is not unknown to some that a very learned and great Clerk a Dignitary of this Church of no small note was hardly perswaded to take down this bitter Pill according to his gust though it was double gilt with a Prebend of 200 l. per annum His Majesties Commissioner presides to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland They willingly and heartily give unto the Kings Majesty the chief Government of all Estates of this Realm whether they be Ecclesiastical or Civil The Covenant binding men to reform according to the Word of God could not reasonably or charitably be construed ro take away that Prerogative which we see to have been given always to godly Princes in holy Scriptures by God himself i. e That they should rule all Estates and Degrees committed to their charge by God whether they be Ecclesiastical or Temporal and restrain with the Civil Sword the stubborn and evil Doers Yea they are so far from wasting or clipping this his Majesties Royal Prerogative that they would not be offended if the Statute of King Edward the Sixth was again revived whereby all Citations in the Courts Spiritual should issue out in the Kings Name and be sealed with his Seal And if it should once please his Majesty it would not displease them no though they themselves were admitted into the Church to have a Vicar General in Spiritualibus Quest Are the high Sons of the Church advanced so many degrees as is pretended above the poor Nonconformists in their Charity See Debate p. 20. Ed. 1. Answ There is just cause to fear that amongst them some there are who have a greater Charity for the Church of Rome than for the Presbyterians that is for them that differ from the Church of England in Substantials in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government that for them who differ from them onely or chiefly in Circumstantials in lesser and lighter matters not of the Foundation of Religion but belonging onely to the Superstructure or if you please at best to the adorning of it For my own part and for all the Nonconforming-Ministers I may say for ought I know That we would sooner give the Right Hand of Fellowship to the highest and most rigid Father or Son of the Church of England than joyn hands with Rome That some of our Brethren of the other side have not a heart so inlarged with Charity to all men and particularly to Dissenters as is pretended and boasted may be evinced by the Treatise under consideration which may seem to be designed to render their Brethren and Ministers of the Gospel too ridiculous if not odious I heard no mean man say That the design was To put the Beasts Skin upon us and then to cry Ha-loo Ha-loo I must needs confess it appears to me at least very uncivil if not uncharitable also to go about to pluck off the Healing and Soveraign Playster which his Majesties Royal Hands with the Advice of his Parliament a whole Colledge of Physitians in the Act of Indempnity had laid on the bleeding Wounds which the late War had made amongst us I might add also that there are some passages so full of Lightness and Drollery that they might better become some Ecclesiastical Hudibras or a Ben-Johnson a Doctor of the Stage than a Rabbi or a grave Doctor of the Church Quest. Are men of the high Prelacy or high and rigid Sons of the Church men of the highest form in Religion and of a more perfect serious and solid Godliness than the poor silly scrupulous Nonconforming-Turn-ours See Debate p. 155. Answ 'T is very strange if Preferment if great places of Power and Profit should indeed make men more truly and seriously godly and particularly should by an Antiparistasis produce the great work of Self-denyal Mortification c. We will not at present compare Godliness but this I think That 't is no demonstration of a higher degree of Godliness to jeer at Godliness though in a Dissenter and accompanied with some Weaknesses and imperfections to make the door to the Theatre and Stage so wide and to the Church and Pulpit so strait and narrow Cerâ—â—inly the true right perfect godly man is neither your Nonconformist godly man nor Conformist as described in the Debate
the first ten or eleven years of Q Elizabeth and that some of our own Church are ready to run away and separate from us pretending we comply too much with Rome in some of our Forms or Ceremonies If if should please his most excellent Majesty and the Parliament to cause the Liturgy to be revised and some greater Alterations to be made for the better than was of late it should not offend but rather much rejoyce the Presbyterians I have read that the Archbishop of Armagh declared his Judgment when time was against the introducing of the English Ceremonies into the Church of Ireland And I have been told that the Right Reverend the Bishop of Hereford that now is upon another occasion expressed his Opinion to be That the further of we keep from the Church of Rome the better I might add this also which I had from a credible person presently after it was spoken That the late Archbishop of Canterbury was very willing to have had though a Liturgy yet one that might not be so much displeasing or dissatisfactory as this was to many I confess there are some well-meaning people who forbear to use the names of Altar Priest Christmass c. or to call Festival dayes wherein the Church of England commemorates the Saints and blesseth God for their example by the names of those Saints dayes yet they are not altogether without all excuse in this their Scrupulosity if we consider what a bad use they of the Church of Rome make of out keeping and continuing old words Let us keep our forefathers words say the Annotations on the Rheâ—ist Testament on 1 Tim. chap. 6. and wâ— shall easily keep our old and true Faith we had of the first Christians Let them say Amendment Abstinence the Lords Supper the Communion Table Elders Ministers Superintendents Congregation so be it Let tee keep the old terms Penance Fasting Priest Charity Bishop Mass Mattins Even song the blessed Sacrament Altar Oblation Holt Sacrifice Alleluja Amen Lent Palmsunday Christmss c. and the very words will bring us to the faith of our first Apostles and condemn these new Apostates their new faith and phrases If we consider further what is reported of Bishop Bonner namely that when he saw the Reformation and how many of their Ceremonies were retained being asked what he thought of it If they like said he to tast of our Broth so well they will eat of our Beef shortly I dare say the Church since the Reformation never intended any adoration of the Bread by our kneeling in the act of receiving and yet Bishop Hall saith thus I had a dangerous conflict with a Sorbonist who took occasion by our kneeling at the receipt of the Eucharist to perswade all the company of our acknowledgment of a transubstantiation It must be confest further that amongst well-meaning people some there are though scarce any among the Ministry who scruple the naming the Apostles and other Saints whether real or imaginary by the name of Saints and their plea may be they cannot see any sufficient reason setting aside the Authority of our Governors and the Custom of the Times and Places we live in why we should say St. Matthew and St. Andrew Debate pag. 64 65. rather than St. Moses and St. Aaron and why they should call David a Bishop in Wales St. David rather than K. David King in Jerusalem the one being truly a Saint and the Lords Anointed and the other canonized by the Pope Yet doubtless there are none so scrupulous amongst us but had as leave say St. Michael as St. George As for the Nonconformists-Ministers it was the practice of Dr. Thomas Goodwin as I am informed and was all along the late timeâ— to say such a Chapter or such a Verse of St. Matthew St. Mark St. Paul c. That 't is not alway necessary to mention the Apostles with the title of Saint for fear of sin in the Judgement of our Church may hence be concluded that in all the Collects for the dayes set apart to commemorate the Holy Apostles in there ate but two wherein they ate stiled Saints Quest. Do the Nonconformists hold it utterly unlawful to keep dayes in remembrance of what the holy Apostles Deb. p. 73. 1. Ed. and other Saints have done or suffered and had they much rather keep a day of Thanksgiving for O. C. his defeating his Majesty at Worcester than for Michael the Archangel his victory over the Devil and his Angels Answ Some think it impossible for a man without special warrant from God to sanctifie so that the service performed unto God upon that day should be more acceptable than on any other Some think the abuses of those Festival dayes are so great common and customary that if his Majesty and the Parliament saw good it would be better and more easie to abolish the Observation of them than to take away the Abuses which they think cleaves to them like the Leprosie in the wall of the house That these Feasts were of Apostolical institution or observed by the Apostles any except Easter is not so much as pretended unto that I read of Hospinian hath told us the Original of them to be of a much later date And as for the observation of Easter it self Mr. Hales is of opinion that it was an Error to hold it necessary to observe such a Feast and the Controversie about the Time which set all the World in a Combustion and were it not that both sides pretended Conscience in the case Hales of Schism p. 5. he thinks them all guilty of Schism he saith was a matter most unnecessary and vaine The old Nonconforming Ministers did use to take the opportunity of those dayes to preach in to the people Some Reformed Churches have no Saints dayes but only keep some few dayes Holy in remembrance of our Saviour or relating to the blessed Trinity So as I take it doth the Church of Scotland even at this day For my own part I think the Church of England is well justified by Mr. Perkins from Superstition in her observance of the Festival dayes she observes I can assure you there are that can observe a day to give thanks for the victory of Michael over the Devil which neither did nor could nor would keep a day to give thanks for the victory of O. C. over the King at Worcester or of Lambert over Sir George Booth in Cheshire As for occasional dayes of Fasting and Humiliation they have not been so much scrupled in the World by sober men nor may be so liable to exception or abuse as the stated Fasts and Feasts may and I think usually they are mote strictly observed As for the Nonconformists private dayes which the Author of the Debate speaks of if they keep them no better those that do keep them than many if not most do the ordinary stated Fasts and Feasts I think they may do every whit as well to lay them aside Quest.
whether there would be such a Reformation as their Consciences could rest satisfied withal if so they resolved to accept those Dignities but when they perceived things were to be setled in statu quo in the condition they are now they waved those places and preferments Might but Bishop Ushers Reduction have been admitted in the Government and the Ceremonies removed or but his Majesties Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs been made a Law they would have thankfully imbraced the offers that were then made them Quest What needs the removal of the Ceremonies be so much as desired of our Governors Are they not like those of a Master of a Family to his Children and Servants to come into the Parlour or Hall at such an hour to Prayer in the Family and to kneel there and he uncovered during Family-Prayers D. p. 106 107. Answ The Nonconforming-Ministers are very willing to come to the Church at the hours appointed by Law and there to stand or kneel and be bare or uncovered at the time of Prayers if such conformity may serve the turn But divers look upon the Ceremonies injoyned in the Liturgy as of another nature than those above-mentioned relating to Peace Order and Decency only namely as Rites of a Mystical or Sacramental signification and therefore have been rejected together with Popery at first by many of the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who yet we doubt not worship God decently and orderly and in the beauty of Holiness Quest Are the Nonconformists such a cross-grain'd Generation that it is the only way to bring them to Conformity for the Magistrate to forbid the use of the Ceremonies D. Answ I wish if his Majesty pleased tryal might be made in forbidding the Cross and Surplice the reading the Lessons out of the Apocrypha and the Old Translation of the Psalms oâ— David Quest Do not the Nonconformists hold that nothing may be done in the Worship of God but what is in joyned by him in his Word Deb. p. 101. edit 1. Answ They generally hold that nothing must be done as a part of Gods Worship nor as properly a medium cultus but they hold that the determination of meet circumstances necessary in genere is not necessary to be set down in the Word Vid. Mr. Baxt. his disputat about Ch. Governm and the Proposals of the Presbyterians to his Majesty Quest Do the Nonconformists Ministers hold the Church of England no true Church and the Ministers of it if Conformists no true Ministers and do they dislwade people from frequenting the Churches and hearing their Ministers setled in them Answ The Presbyterians have justified the calling of Ministers in the Church of England in their Jus Divinum Ministerii Anglicani they â—efuse not to communicate with the Publick Assemblies divers that sometimes keep private Meetings for Religious Exercises they and their Auditors go to Church also and joyn therein in praing and hearing and receiving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Quest Do the Nonconformists-Ministers hold all superiority of one Presbyter above another Antichristian Answ As to the Bishops of the Church of England invested with all that Power which they have and usually exercise in the Church of England without the joynt-advice and consent of the Presbytery we look upon them not as Jure Divino strictly but as his Majesties Deputies and Commissioners in Ecclesiasticall Affairs and since his Majesty is pleased to make them Lords can give them their Title and serve God and the Church under them Quest Is the Assembly in their Directory for Worship so much out in advising and directing Ministers to preach in the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit and of Power and are those Ministers guilty of error and presumption now-a-dayes who make this a petition in Prayer before their Sermons that they may be enabled so to preach See Deb. p. 5. edit 1. Answ The sense of the Author of the Debate and divers other Interpreter and the sense in which the Assembly and many other pious and learned Preachers use this Scripture 1 Cor 2.4 need not necessarily to exclude one the other Take Bishop Hall's Paraphrase upon the place My speech both in my private Exhortation and iâ— my publicly Preachings was not curiously plausible as if I would win with words of humane Eloquent and Wit but in plain and powerful expressions 〈◊〉 God's Spirit speaking in me and working in you 〈◊〉 me And the pious prudent and learned Bishop of Chester in his Ecclesiastes directing what kind of phrase a Minister must use in his preaching saith it must be affectionate and cordial 〈◊〉 proceeding from the heart and an experimental atquaintance with those Truths which we deliver adds this it to speak in the demonstration of thâ— Spirit and of Power Besides the learned Dâ— Hammond tells us in his Comment on the New Testament that divers places in the Old-Testament are said to be fulfilled in the New bâ— way of Accommodation And why may not this Scripture be used by Ministers by way of Accommodation also Do not the Sons of the Church pray for the Clergy of England as for God's own Tribe the Tribe of Levi Besides if you seriously consider the Context you may see cause not wholly to reject the other interpretation namely that of Mr. Dixon in loc Demonstrativâ— nibus Scriptura solida Veritatis quibus Spiritâ— potenter se exerebat operabatur in vestris animis Quest Do the Nonconforming-Ministers pre-end now to pray by the Spirit as if the Holy-Ghost should immediatly infuse method matter and words whilst they pray Answ Mr. Hollingworth sometime a prime Presbyterian in Lancashire shall answer for them They do not hold that they ought not to take bought before-hand what they should pray expecting that the Holy-Ghost should immediately inspire them with method matter and words of Prayer who ever said it was not they that prayed but the Holy-Ghost praying in them And yet in this duty as well as in others the Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God which is a Spirit of Grace and Supplication and because we know not what to ask he helpeth our infirmities and we may be said to pray in the Spirit not onely because the holy Spirit doth stir up warm and enlarge our affections in prayer but be brings oft times to our remembrance the savory and suit able phrases and passages of holy Writ especially the promises which are most pertinent to our purpose Why should any imagine that the evil spirit can have power to suggest evil thoughts or imaginations into us to distract and hinder us when we are praying and not the good and holy Spirit should suggest good thoughts and desires and that too in his own language I mean in Scripture-phrase and expressions bringing them at such a time to our remembrance Yea the Holy-Ghost saith that pious person restrains the petulancy and extravagancy of wit great swelling words of vanity vain bablings idle repetitions c. and he
teaches us to pray in the words of truth and soberness We acknowledge a distinction betwixt the Gift of Prayer and the Spirit of Prayer The one is a common gift of the Spirit the other is a special gift or grace of the Spirit that consists in apt expressions outward enlargements this in deep impressions on the heart devout affections which are too big for expressions these are the sighs and groans which cannot be uttered A Reverend and worthy Prelate of the Church of England treating of the gift of Prayer saith thus P. 12. If it be a fault not to strive and labour after this gift much more is it to jeer and despise it by the name of Extempore Prayer and praying by the Spirit which Expressions as they are frequently used by some men by way of reproach are for the most part the sign of a prophane heart and such as are altogether strangers from the power and comfort of this duty Quest In case this expression may be tolerated and admit of any favourable construction Do not they often-times use many light and indecent and sometimes very clownish expressions in their Prayer to gratifie the rudeness of their Auditors Deb. p. 62. edit 4. Answ As for many of them they are not rash to utter any thing before the Lord they are very serious and sober in their expressions affectionat and zealons in their utterance There is a little Book of the Prayers of many of the chief of them taken I suppose in Short-hand without their knowledge and published for ought I know without their consent yet I conceive with some grains of allowance for common and pardonable errors might pass with an Imprimatur And if there be some who have used unbecoming expressions Are there not to be found also among the Conformists guilty of the like Indecencies Not to mention the Pr. of D. I. M. at Oxford nor the Pr. of D. R. at Windsor I hope it may be pardonable to cite that of the D. which was printed with his own knowledge Let the Gold of our Nobility excel in Grace as they do in Honour purifie the Silver of our Gentry from the dross of Vice engrave upon the Brass of the Communalty the fear of thy holy Name As for their affectionate way of utterance I suppose it may be a means to move themselves others to sutable affections to the duty they ate about Vocal Prayer where it can conveniently be used is by some preferred before mental because 't is a means to excite affections and prevent distraction One end of Prayer as a very learned Author tells us is not to move or affect God but our selves that we may be fit to receive the good things that we beg of him and then those words and phrases and that way of utterance or speaking which is most affectionate and least affected which is best adapted to the matter of the prayer and productive also of good effects in our selves and others ought to be esteemed least liable to blame or exception Is it not the part of an Oratour to change his voice and gesture according to the variety of the subject or matter he is speaking of do not men begin an Oration with a low voice or tone ordinarily and so rise higher as they go further and ordinarily are most intense and earnest towards the Conclusion We are directed in the Common-Prayer-Book to repeat the Confession of Sins after the Minister with a meek heart and humble voice And I have heard of one that for his voice and confidence was charged that he confessed his sins as if he was proud of them Quest Do not some Nonconformists complain that they cannot be so affected in the hearing of Common-Prayer as at other Prayers Deb. p. 89. edit 4. Answ I have heard it bitterly complained of that the Common Prayers which are good in themselves should be abased by mean pittifull scandalous Readers and be read in so slight and dull a manner The Liturgy is not ordinarily as to its effects on the generality of the Auditors the same when read by a worthy person and in a grave and decent manner as otherwise yet I confess some reason why many men are not so much affected with the Common-Prayer is with the Minister's own Prayer may be the frequent repetition of the same prayers I suppose where a man strictly tieth himself to a Form of Prayer though of his own composing constantly before or after Sermon it is not ordinarily so affecting or quickning to himself or others as when he doth otherwise I think Prayer by forms and conceived prayers both lawful and both of them have their excellencies in some respects That by a Form excells in some respects Conceived Prayer in others as I heard the Pious Reverend and Learned Dr. Holdsworth when he was Vice-Chancellor at the Commencement at Cambridge determine the matter though he concluded for the lawfulness and expediency of a Liturgy for Publick Worship Such it the nature of man that he is ordinarily most excited in his affections and his attention soonest engaged and raised by Novelty or variety And hear what a Reverend Person no enemy to Episcopacy and Liturgy saith of Prayer by Book There is not that life and vigour in it to engage the affections as when it proceeds immediately from the soul it self and is the natural expression of those particulars whereof we are most sensible B. Ch. G. P. p. 12. Now one Reason being given in the Preface to the Liturgy why some Ceremonies are retained being this because they are apt to affect the dull mind of man c. why may not a Minister so order his Prayers before and after Sermon c. as to voice and phrase as may most probably affect himself and them that joyn in prayer with him I do by no means approve of Romantick or Courtly expressions on the one hand in Prayer nor Rude and Rustick expressions on the other I think Scripture-phrase is best fittest and of choice therefore to be made use of And to this I think I may safely say the generality of the Non-conformists do conform as much as the Conformists themselves Quest How can a man joyn in a Prayer in which he is not before acquainted Answ As a man may in his judgment assent unto any Divine Truth delivered in a Sermon which he never heard before so may he joyn in his affections unto any holy desire in a Prayer which he never heard before B. C. If he who is mouth of the rest shall through impudence deliver that which he cannot approve God does not look upon it as our Prayer if our Desires do not say Amen to it Quest Do the high Prelatists allow of Ministers to pray any Prayer besides the Common-Prayer Answ Dr. Heylyn condemns the custom of praying before and after Sermon We are told that this doth frustrate the end and design of the Liturgy and that 't is needless c. And that although many
Jewels but with us at least by many amongst us such kind of persons are as vile though not so common as the stones in the street In other Religions they account of men the more and the better the more religious they seem to be and the more precise strict and punctual they are in the observation of the Rules of their Religion So the Papists so the Turks The Turks account all Fools to be Saints and many amongst us account all Saints to be Fools and the greater Saints the greater Fools Quest. Are not Nonconformists more precise than wise in not allowing themselves and others the delights of Playes and other divertisments Answ Dr. Heylin in his Geography observes that the Protestant Ministers in France are so strait-laced as not to allow of mixt dancing The Nonconformists here are not all of this Judgement they did not do not use to enquire before persons approach unto the Lord's Table whether or no where when or how often they have danced whether they go to see Comaedies c. I my self have been asked whether Dancing was lawful I answered Dancing was lawful but whether mixt dancing was they could tell better than I If it was to them a motive or incitement to evil to them it was unlawful else I dare not condemn it as sinful I will not make more sins than the holy Scripture and the Light of Nature has discovered to be so As for Stage-Playes if they were reformd and regulated so as to have no cursing or swearing nothing of lasciviousness and wantonness nothing of impiety or prophaness no putting on of Apparel not belonging to be sex by the Actors I should look on them as one of the best Recreations only I would not have seeing of Playes be made a mans work or business and that which should be but a divertisment be a man's whole imployment But as they are frequently made and acted if we may believe reports the must have stronger Champions than I to throw down the Gantlet or take it up in their defence 'T is well known the Ancient Fathers of the Church and some reverend and learned men Sons of the Church of England have condemned them Dr. Reynolds Doctor of the Chair at Oxford and we are told a Conformist too wrote against them Dr. Andrew Rivet Professor of Divinity and Tutor to the Prince of Orange and one that remembred the condition of our Sovereign when in Exile in his last hours and Prayers is no friend to them And Dr. Fern afterward Bishop of Chester offered to joyn with some Presbyterian Ministers in declaring for the sanctification of the Lord's day and against Stage-playes in the late times Yet as for those that go to see them I do not I dare nor therefore judge them no Christians or no good Christians because sometimes they are seen in the Theatre though oftener in the Church I must confess that that inference I may see a Picture therefore a Play is but weak and dark and but the shadow of an Argument For those who condemn such Representations on the Stage do the like in a Picture that is they damn lascivious wanton Pictures Books Songs as well as Playes Again the seeing of a Picture good or bad hath not I conceive such a powerful influence on us as the acting or personating on the Stage hath We are not usually so affected by reading of a Book as by heating a Speech the voice and action speak louder and are oftner heard than a dumb shadow or a silent picture However to conclude this matter I think the Author of the Friendly Debate had much better have spent his time in hearing or seeing of Plays than in writing of that Treatise yea that he might as well and to as good purpose have gone about to find out the wandring Jew he speaks of as to find Evidence to prove the generality of Nonconformist-Ministers neither good Subjects nor good Christians Quest What then do you think that the Author of the F. Debate was not well imployed in writing these Books and in discovering the vanity and childishness of Mr. T. W's Writings or the falseness and dangerousness of Mr. W. B. his Books to the World Answ As for Mr. T. W. I have heard that he hath written divers useful Books and I suppose in that Book or Books criticised upon might have been found matter as well as phrases and some great as well as little things and if a man had a mind to carp and cavil at other mens works as the Author of the Debate doth he might pull some of the Fathers by the Beards and tell them also they have written very childishly All men write not in the same We and phrase or in the like method as all Cooks dress not the same joynt of meat with the same sauce and garnish not the dish in the same manner when they send it up And some Readers and Auditors like one way of writing or speaking some another else what need such variety of Gifts but all tend to the Edification of the Church The Scholar is taken with one way of preaching or writing the Citizen with another the Countryman with another Mr. Calvin Mr. Farrel Mr. Viret all three had their Excellencies one in this way and manner and another in that If the Doctrine which is preached or printed be sound and wholsome what though the stile and phrase be not compleat and polite If thy meat be good and savory what though not served up in a Lordly Dish I had rather have wholsome Food in an Earthen Platter than Poyson in a Golden Charger I suppose all Conformists have not the same low opinion of Mr. T. W. if it be true which I heard that one of them preached one of his Printed Sermons and that a Citizen his Auditor after Sermon went to him with a Thank you Mr. Watson for your pains Quest Doth not Mr. W. preach and print dangerous and poisonous Doctrines such as tend towards Commotion and disturbance of the publick Peace Answ If he do I leave him to apologize for himself I will be no Advocate in such matters And if he doth he is condemned by those of his own way I mean our Brethren of the Congregational Church Twenty nine Ministers of that Judgement as to Church-Goverment being in and about the City published a Renunciation and Declaration against the horrid Insurrection and Rebellion acted by Venner and his Confederates to which they subscribed their Names In conclusion of which they declare as followeth We cease not to pour out our hearty prayers for all sorts of Blessings spiritual and temporal upon the Person and Government of his Majesty both in our Congregations Families and Retirements and through Gods grace according to our Duties shall continue so to do our selves and to perswade others thereunto and to live quietly and peaceably in all Godliness and honesty And as to the Actings and Resolutions of Venner and his party they say The
not therefore that the Nonconformists of former times were better more peaceable more modest then these If any man though in the heat of his passion and in the heat of the War have called the Conformists Gentiles Uncircumcised Philistines Egyptians Babylonians the Brood of the Serpent and have denied pardon of sin and Heaven to them because of their Conformity I think he ought to repent of such hard sayings and uncharitable Censures of his Brethren and Fellow-servants and to bring forth Fruits meet for Repentance for the time to come viz. To lay a Law of Love and Kindness upon his Tongue and Pen as long as he lives 'T is to be hoped the number of those that had such unbridled Tongues and Pens was very small the instances you bring of such intemperate heats and irregular zeal are taken out of the Furnace of the late War and that too after the fire had been raked up in Ashes by many years peace and fully quenched by the Act of Oblivion and Indempnity If we had a mind to recriminate and retaliate we could repeat much foul Language and bitter reviling speeches by some of your way against us also But these are not the methods of Peace I desire therefore that all such matters may be forgiven and forgotten on both sides and remembred onely or chiefly by the Anthors and Abettors of them that they may if they have not already repent of them more than in Dust and Ashes Quest Did not the Scots in Ireland write to their Brethren in Scotland to send over Ministers to them in such language as if they thought there had been but little of Religion amongst them in that Countrey during the Reign of the Bishops C. Answ There might be many dark Corners in Ireland for want of Oyl to maintain Lamps preaching Ministers I mean such as should be like John Baptist burning and shining Lights amongst them The Scotish Presbyterians if they be like their Brethren in England had a Reverend esteem of Archbishop Usher and the Bishops of Ireland for the Irish Articles of Religion and their zeal against the toleration of Popery there Who or what was the cause of the scarcity of able Ministers except want of Maintenance and fear of the Irish Papists I know not but confident I am the Bishops of Armagh and Ardagh were not if any other Bishops Quest Have not the Nonconformists a high conceit of themselves and those of their own way and a low esteem of all others for Religion and Godliness Doth not Mr. Baynes say There is more of God and his Religion in some one Congregation of a silenced Minister than in all the Bishops Families in England And doth not Dr. Ames approve that of Mr. Baynes Answ I have heard that Dr. Ames had so much charity for Corvinus that he said He did not doubt but to meet him in Heaven Why then Mr. Baynes passeth and Dr. Ames approveth such a smart Censure on the Bishops Families I cannot tell Yet 't is not to be imagined that Mr. P. Baynes meant that the Bishops had no Religion in their Families If so I cannot commend his Charity I think this is a sure and clear truth That neither Bishops not silenced Ministers can be said to have all Religion or no Religion amongst them and their Followers I hold a Monopoly in Religion as unlawful as some have thought those in the State illegal Never the-less it must be confessed That the Articles of Visitation or the Injunctions of the Great Apostle St. Paul are Canonical A Bishop must rule his own House well for if a man know not how to rule his own House how shall he take care of the Church of God 1 Tim. 3.4 5. He that writes the Life of Archbishop Usher tells us That he had four times a day Prayer in his House that there was an hour spent in Catechising once a Week viz. every Fryday that he had on the Lords day in the Evening the Sermon which he preached in the Morning repeated in his Chappel by one of his Chaplains This was the way to have a Church in his House All Bishops do not write after this Canon nor this Copy I know a Minister a learned sober and zealous Conformist that after he had been with his Diocesan at his House or Palace to subscribe came home with a sad heart and professed it was not for any thing he had done but for the prophaness and disorder he observed in the Bishops Family amongst his Servants 'T is to the great commendation of the present Archbishop of Canterbury that which is reported of him That he keeps a good House that is in Bishop Goodman's Dialect he spends Church-Means in a Churchly manner And that he keeps a well-govern'd House allows not Debauchery if a Servant be drunk once there 's no place for a second Error If so it must be acknowledged that there is Discipline in that School where nothing saves but a primum tempus Quest Doth his Majesties Coronation-Oath to protect the Bishops and their Priviledges to his power as every good King in his Kingdoms in right ought to protect and defend the Bishops and Churches under their Government hinder his Majesty that he may not regulate the Jurisdiction of Bishops or remove the controverted Ceremonies out of the Church Answ Hear Mr. Geree one whom the Author of the Friendly Debate calls a discreet Presbyterian The King saith he is sworn to maintain the Laws of the Land in force at his Coronation and yet 't is not unlawful after to abrogate any upon the motion or with the consent of his Parliament The King is bound to maintain the Rights of the Clergy whilst they continue such but if any if their Rights be abrogated by just Power he stands no longer engaged in that particular If any Priviledges of the Clergy prove prejudicial or contrariant to the Laws and Liberties and Priviledges of the People which the King is bound to maintain the King may lawfully relieve his other Subjects by passing such Bills as may take away such Priviledges His Majesties Oath first made to his Subjects in general being lawful cannot be voided or superseded by his after-Oath to the Clergy And as for the Laws about Ceremonies they are not like those of the Medes and Persians unchangable but may be changed and the Rites and Ceremonies now in use may be abolished by the same power by which they were here established Quest Did the Nonconformists generally make Addresses formerly to Oliver Cromwel and Richard Cromwel Answ For my own part I never made any Address to O. C. or R. C. And the onely Address that the Presbyterian-Ministers of the City of London made to O. C. was for the saving the Life of Dr. Hewit As for Addresses to R. C. divers Now-Conformists at well as Nonconformists did joyn in them as they did also generally to General Monk for a Free Parliament in Order to his Majesties Restauration Quest Are not all
of the Debate tells us in his Continuation p. 383. that at first the chief promoters of stinted Liturgies were renowned for their constant and unwearied preaching every day in the week and someeimes twice and as probably this was one thing that advanced the credit and esteem of Liturgies in former times As I am perswaded one great cause why many do not esteem of the Liturgy so much now is that so many great Conformists and sticklers for it are Pluralists and Nonresidents and divers of them either preach not at all or very seldom and then too some of them preach against Preaching and saw down the branch of that Tree upon which they stand so high above their Brethren And on the other side those who scruple some things in the Liturgy and Ceremonies are such constant and zealous Preachers and that when Bonds and Imprisonments abide them for their so doing Quest But is it not indeed the Bond of the Covenant the Scottish Covenant wherewith our English Presbyterians have bound their Souls the great or onely Cause that makes so many Nonconformists Answ The Covenant mentioned was not the cause of the War the Battel at Edge-hill was fought before the Covenant came into England And whereas the Covenant was enter'd into in Forty Two and Forty Three there have been Nonconformists ever since Bishop Hooper and the Reformation in King Edward the Sixth's days There are some amongst the Covenanters that can conform to the Liturgy and submit to Episcopal Government And the greater part of Nonconformists Preachers at this day never took the Covenant Quest. What is the reason that divers Nonconformists read Logick in private Houses Is not this contrary to their Oath takes in the University Cont. p. 10. edit 4. Answ I have consulted as able as any in the Universities and by their Offices as likely to know as any about the matter and am told That the Oath there prohibits the setting up of another University in Opposition to the Universities and Reading in order to the taking Degrees elsewhere The words are at Oxford They shall not solennes Lectiones resumere which doth not make Dr. Busby perjured for initiating his Scholars some time in Logick before they go to the University Nor the several Professors at Gresham-Colledge who read as solemn Lectures surely as a Nonconformist doth in a private house Besides I hear but of one Nonconformist that at present doth teach Youth in that manner privately Quest What security can his Majesty and the Parliament have that Nonconformists will not under pretence of Conscience or Covenant seditiously endeavour an Alteration of Church-Government but that they will live quietly and peaceably in their places Answ They are ready to give the ancient Legal-Security the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and that is more than the Papists will do and as much as is required of the generality of the rest of the Nation notwithstanding their having taken the Engagement in the late times which yet many Presbyterians now Nonconformists and Ejected Ministers would never do though some of them lost their Places for their refusal Moreover many of them since have taken an Oath not to endeavour any Alteration of Government in Church and State and yet are not trusted to preach publickly much less to enjoy any Ecclesiastical Benefice And the rest that scruple some words or phrases in that Oath are yet ready besides the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy to swear that they will live quietly and peaceably in their places and not under colour or pretence of the Covenant or any pretence whatever endeavour by force or sediciously and tumultuously any Alteration of Government in Church and State Quest. Is the Act of Uniformity and the Oxford Act to be strictly and rigorously pressed upon and executed on all transgressors Answ If it be then what will become of many Conformists who use other Rites and Ceremonies than what are by Law required and of them who use other Forms of Prayer then are there prescribed and of all those Ministers that do not reade the Common-Prayer either publickly or privately morning and evening and so those Lecturers who do not monthly reade their Assent Consent c. And as for the Oxford Act Oath I have heard from a very learned person a Conformist that the Bishops themselves come within the compass of it as many as have not assented and consented c. as oft as they came within five miles of their Sees or any ther Corporation This I say not to bring the Bishops within but to bring others out of the reach of that Act or rather to encline if it nay be our Fathers and Brethren to use their interest with his Majesty and Parliament to remove those Laws which are a Partition-wall betwixt the Conformist Nonconformist Quest. But are not the Nonconformists sinners and transgressors of the Divine Law as oft as they withdraw from actual communion with the Church of England being as many of them confess a true Church Ans Many of our learned Doctors hold Rome to be a true Church as a Woman is a true Woman though an Harlot and a Man a true Man though overspread with Leprosie And yet being we cannot actually hold external communion with them without either subscribing to many false Tenets or joyning in a corrupt and Idolatrous Service we withdraw from them without sin Our withdrawing is not to be charged with sin or schism although too we were the minor part who withdrew and against the determination of a pretended General Councel And I believe it would be a hard matter to prove that many of those Meetings which are now commonly called Conventicles want any of the essential requisites to a true Church and yet do not think themselves Schismaticks for not holding actual communion with them because not countenanced by the Law And if a Legal Establishment be absolutely necessary to the being of a true Christian Church then there was no true Church at Rome till Constantine's dayes which I suppose you will judge very unreasonable to assert Quest Is it possible there should be Unity without Uniformity in Rites and Ceremonies c. Answ Yes There is Unity amongst the Protestant Reformed Churches beyond the Seas that follow Calvin and yet divers forms of Prayer and divers Rites The Author of the Debate will not take it well if a man should not say there is Unity at home amongst Conformists and yet the Cathedrals and Country-Parish-Churches differ in some Rites and in their mode of Worship and in the Parish-Churches there are diversity of Ceremonies and Usages in the Worship of God In some Churches they stand up at the Hymns in others not In some they reade the Hymns and Psalms Minister and People antiphonatim in others not In some in most they reade the Prayer for Christs Catholick Church if at all before Sermon but I know where 't is constantly read after And it is well known that none boast more of
Unity than the Romanists and yet in several Countries they have several Rites Customs and Priviledges and in England before the happy Reformation the Service was ad modum Sarum and ad modum Bangor different in divers Churches Quest Is it not necessary to appoint the same Vestures and Gestures for the Worship of God to avoid difference and confusion Answ There is no Gesture or Ceremony prescribed in the singing of Psalms and yet People generally are bare and reverend in that exercise The late Canons in 1640. leave Bowing towards the East of Altar indifferent and would not have those that do it to judge those that do it not nor those that do it not to judge those that do it Now what greater inconvenience would follow if the same moderation and liberty to practise differently were used as to the Cross Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper If there must be absolute and universal Uniformity in the Worship of God amonst the Worshippers then all must alike have their Faces one way must wear all Garments of the same fashion and colour In the late Times when the Liturgy and Ceremonies were disused there were not a quarter of those private Meetings that have been since The number of them that separated from the Publick Worship were very small in comparison I suppose not ten to an hundred The Author of the Debate I guess and hundreds if not thousands of Conformists did not hold themselves bound notwithstanding the Laws for Liturgy and Ceremonies to absent themselves from the then Publick Worship and assemble privately that they might uphold Uniformity in Forms of Prayer Rites and Ceremonies Whence we may reasonably conclude That they thought Gods Publick Worship might be carried on without Uniformity in these things And again That the omission of things required by Law is not judged so great a sin as is by them pretended Quest Did not Presbyterians decry all Separaration and refuse to tolerate Independents See Cont. p. 224. Answ The Presbyterians both old and modern are against Separation They deny that they separate from you for upon occasion they joyn with you in Ordinances and if you remove some things wherewith your Worship is clogg'd they would joyfully communicate constantly with you The present partial and temporary withdrawing as to some Acts of Worship is not to be charged with Schism If you hold forth communion with your Church as in the Apostles days with a Liturgy sufficiently corrected without Symbolical Ceremonies without such Oaths Declarations and Subscriptions they will come into your Bosom though you not onely cast them out of your Lap but thrust them out of your House and shut the Doors upon them As we justifie the Church of England from Schism notwithstanding our Separation from Rome so the Nonconformists will endeavour to justifie their withdrawings in some Acts and for a time only by reason of the terms of Communion imposed on them That they are for Reformation not Separation may be hence concluded That in a late project for Peace and Agreement this was one Proposition given in by the Presbyterians themselves That whosoever should be capable of any Employment should profess to hold Communion with the Church of England and to the uttermost of his power to promote the Peace and Happiness thereof And when there was a difference betwixt Presbyterians and their Brethren commonly called Independents formerly there was a Conference before a Committee of Parliament betwixt them in which the Presbyterians as I am credibly informed offered either to give or take that is to say They would take the Establishment and allow their Brethren of the Congregational-way a well-regulated Toleration or let their Brethren take the Establishment and allow the Presbyterians such a Toleration And one of the chief of them when the London-Ministers waited on his Majesty at the Hague when discourse was about Ecclesiastical Affairs earnestly moved his Majesty that he would please to think of a way to indulge them a Liberty though they should not be comprehended in the Publick Establishment as it was then hoped the Presbyterian would have been In brief the Presbyterians disclaim Separation they are willing to have Union and Communion with the Church of England upon Christian and friendly Terms And they desire the like Liberty and Toleration from the Bishops that they were willing and ready to have shewed to their Brethren of the Congregational Way Yea they would bless God and our Governours if they might have the like Favours and Liberties that Dr. Gunning Dr. Wild Dr. Hide and others the Now-Conformists had in former times Quest If the Presbyterians are willing to conform to a Liturgy and to this Liturgy when sufficiently corrected yet what hopes is there that ever there should be any Alteration or Reformation of it which will satisfie or please them so as to use it Answ Yes there is such a draught already made to the great content of the chief of the Presbyterians and this done by three Reverend persons all Conformists And which I hope may be produced when ever Authority shall please to command it Quest. Would it not be accounted a weak thing to yeild or condescend though never so little if this might be a means to cement and soder us together again Answ It was the prudence of the ancient Church to satisfie the Joannites who had kept Conventicles apart from the Church for thirty years being disgusted at the dishonour done to John Chrysostom their Bishop or Pastor and this the Church did by restoring his honour after he was dead Socrat. Eccles Hist. Quest Why should the Church of England remove the Ceremonies which she hath retained since the Reformation May she not thereby disgust and offend the Romanists to please the Nonconformists which they call Puritans rather than Protestants Answ These Ceremonies were at first retained and continued when others were cast out of the Church in hopes to bring the Papists to a compliance with our Church But Archbishop Usher as he that writes his Life informs us upon occasion declared his Judgement concerning them That experience of many years hath shewed that this condescention hath rather hardned them in their Error than brought them to a liking of our Religion this being their usual saying If our Flesh be not good why do you drink of our Broth If the Church stick close to the Ceremonies she is not like to gain our Adversaries the Romanists to our Communion if she lay aside the Ceremonies she may gain thousands and ten thousands of our Brethren to our Church again That they may do thus God grant that the same mind might be in all our Bishops that was in Christ Jesus the chief Shepherd and Bishop of our Souls that they may love and feed their Sheep and be ready to lay down their lives for their Sheep and then their Yoak will be easie and their Burden light Or that was in the blessed Apostle Paul on whom was the
Care of all the Churches who professeth of himself I became all things to all men that by any means I might win some Or else that was in this Godly Archbishop Usher of whom 't is recorded in his Life That though he conformed himself yet he desired that his Majesty would not impose the English Ceremonies on the Irish Church saying If I had all mens Consciences in my keeping I could in these disputable Cases give Laws unto them as well as my self But 't is one thing what I can do and another thing what other men must do Since the Ceremonies be things saith our Church in their own nature indifferent and yet by some held superstitious and unlawful it seemeth to fall within the Apostles Rule which is That the strong do descend and yeild to the weaker if we will hearken to the Counsel of the Lord Chancellor Bacon in his Considerations touching the Church of England Quest. Doth the holy Scripture caution us against grieving our Brethren as well as against offending of them so as to occasion them to stumble and fall into sin Answ 'T is our duty not onely to prevent out Brothers fall but his fears and to keep his heart from sinking as well as his feet from falling To the weak became I as weak that I might gain the weak I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some 1 Cor. 9.22 'T is the part of a good Shepherd to carry the Lambs in his Arms and gently to lead the Ewes that are great with young and of Nursing Fathers and Mothers to be tender-hearted and tender-handed towards Babes towards weak and young Children If it be said We must not grieve or vex the Magistrate I answer 'T is true we must not but if the Magistrate please to remove the Law where there 's no Law there 's no Disobedience and then the Offence ceaseth And where there 's no Offence committed by the Inferiour there should be no Offence taken by the Superiour or when there is none given there should be none taken The things are alterable in themselves The Magistrate is a Minister of God for good and if he shall please to remove every stumbling-stone and grieving-thorn out of the way to the Church and out of the way of Obedience How shall God and his people bless him All the power that the Church hath it is to edification and not to destruction and there 's a far greater necessity of Unity than of Uniformity 'T is a great deal better not to make Canons than to make such as we fore-see will be broken by thousands and that under a pretence of Conscience and who are serious sober civil people in their Lives and Conversations Quest What may be thought the readiest way to make the Bishops work easie and his person to be beloved Answ 'T is I think to use Moderation to rule with Love and not with Rigor and that notwithstanding some young Counsellors some Hot-spurs may advise them as of old the young men did Rehoboam when their Brethren come to them and say Your Fore-fathers or your Predecessors divers of them made our Yoke grievous Now therefore make ye we pray you the grievous Service of your Fore-fathers and their heavy Yoke which they put upon us lighter and we will serve you To say to them Our little Finger shall be heavier than our Fore-fathers Loyns and now whereas they did lade you with a heavy Yoke we will adde to your Yoke Our Fore-fathers chastised you with Whips but we will chastise you with Scorpions The deeper you lay the Foundation in Humility and the broader in Charity the higher you may probably build your House and it may likewise stand the longer A well-grounded Jus Humanum may stand longer than a high-built pretended Jus Divinum And Reason shews saith one that Episcopacy will stand more firm in conjunction with Presbytery than by it self alone There be two circumstances saith my Lord Chancellor Bacon wherein I could never be satisfied the one the sole exercise of their Authority the other the deputation of their Authority For the first he saith surely I do suppose and I think upon good ground that ab initio non fuit ita And that the Deans and Chapters were Counsels about the Seas and Chairs of Bishops at the first and were unto them a Presbytery or Consistory And again we see that the Bishop of Rome Fas est ab hoste doceri and no question in that Church the first Institutions were excellent performeth all Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in Consistory with advice that is of the Cardinals or Parish-Priests of Rome And hereof again saith he we see divers shadows yet remaining as that the Dean and Chapter proformâ chooseth the Bishop which is the highest point of Jurisdiction Again The same Author tells us that the Bishop is a Judge and of a high nature Whence cometh it that he should depute considering that all trust and confidence is personal and inherent and cannot or ought not to be transposed surely in this again ab initio non fuitita But it is probable that Bishops when they gave themselves too much to the glory of the World and became Grandees in Kingdoms and great Counsellors to Princes then did they leave their proper Jurisdiction as things of too inferior a nature for their greatness And then after the similitude and immitation of Kings and Counts-Palatine they would have their Chancellors and Judges Quest Is the Author of the Fr. Debate so extraordinary zealous as he pretends for the honour of our Governours and Government in the State Answ See pag. 50 51. of the Continuation where he doth insinuate or more plainly inform the Nation that not only Nonconformists keep Conventicles but that Mass is said and that the Papists take the same liberty in the exercise of their Religion as the Nonconformists do in theirs And that little or no notice is taken of any Drunkards Sweaters or Blasphemers If he had pleased 't is to be thought he might have found great sins amongst the Clergy little taken notice of and not much punished in Ecclesiastical Courts If he had done like Shem and Japhet to have rather endeavoured to cover his nakedness he might have been blessed by them or else if he will needs have his jerks at Nonconformists though it light partly on his and our Superiors in the State to have gone on and have whipped the Buyers and Sellers in out of the Temple also Quest Do the Nonconformists teach the people railing language particularly to call all they like not Antichristian and Babylonish Vid. Contin p. 155 266 c. Answ Time was when Reverend and Renowned Mr. Vines that lost the Mastership of Pembroke-Hall in Cambridge because he would not subscribe the Engagement as did also Dr. Spurstow the Master of Katherine-Hall and Mr. Young of Jesus-Colledge for the same cause preaching before the Parliament said Henceforward he should take Antichrist for
a better man than ever he thought him to be there were so many good things charged upon him And another Presbyterian now a Nonconformist preaching to the same Auditors preached that Antichristian and Babylonian were terms sooner imputed or charged than proved But if the Nonconforming-Ministers or People were yet ignorant and to seek for scoffing and reviling language they might have a Dictionary of such hard words out of the Friendly Debate If there be in Private-meetings that use railing and reviling speeches as too many too often have is publick Congregations I would rather advise people to sit quietly at home if they will not go to Church than to go or step out of doors to learn their language I do not love a biting tongue and I take a black mouth to be as venemous in a man as 't is accounted wholsom in a dog And if there be any printed Book wiâ—h such railing speeches or phrases in them I will promise you it shall never have my Imprimatur without an Index expurgatorius in the next Edition Quest Is the Divinity of the Nonconformists a Phrase-Divinity and in case their Books and Sermons are not fill'd with foul language is there any thing besides fine words and new phrases in them Answ There was something besides words in the Old Nonconformists witness the writings of Mr. Dod Mr. Ball Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw c. And doubtless there is matter and that good matter and sound speech that need not to be ashamed in the Writings of Nonconformists of this Generation witness the Books written by Mr. Baxter Dr. Manton Mr. Caryll Mr. Allen Dr. Owen Mr. Pool c. they hold to Scripture-expressions and to the terms of sound words which they have received from the most serious solid pious Bishops and Doctors of the Chair Professors at home and abroad in former times yea the Nonconforming-Presbyterians and Congregational Ministers profess to agree with our Articles of Religion of the Church of England in all things concerning the Doctrine of Faith and Ceremonies And is all this but Phrase-Divinity The Author of the Debate and divers other of the present Conformists may as justly be charged for new Divinity new minted words in Divinity new phrases and modes of expressing themselves in Sermons and Writings and these too less conform to the language of the holy Scripture our own Articles and Homilies the Harmony of Confessions of the Reformed Churches and our ancient Bishops and Doctors The Author of the Debate though he seems to be the Bishops Advocate yet his Writings shew him more an Episcopian than an Episcopalian and 't is easie to see from what forge they have their new Divinity and new Theological Dictionary Quest. Were not the Nonconformists the cause of the strange and new Doctrines and Opinions and of phantastical words and phrases in preaching and writing Ans I grant the taking down the old Mound or Hedge and not setting a new one in the room was an occasion that many erronious persons like wild beasts did get into the Vineyard and that some strange Doctrines Phancies Phrases and Whimses were vented in the Times of War and late Confusions but I say that these things are not to be charged upon the Presbyterians for if they had had power to their principles and purposes they would doubtless have raised up a Mound or Fence against such Errors Fancies and Follies as strong as that the Parliament removed I have heard it observed that of all Churches no Church hath had fewer Heresies and Heterodoxies spring up or at least prosper in it than the Church of Scotland and that this was acknowledged by King James Quest Were all that took the Covenant bound thereby to endeavour to introduce the Government of the Church of Scotland into England because they obliged themselves to maintain and defend Religion in the Church of Scotland and to reform Religion in the Church of England Vid. Contin p. 168. Answ No. They engaged only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might to preserve Religion in the Church of Scotland against the Common Enemy notwithstanding which the Scots might reform ought that was amiss or defective with his Majesties leave and consent in a legal manner And the English Covenanters were not bound to model the Church-Government in England according to the pattern of the Kirk of Scotland but according to the Word of God and the best Reformed Churches Whether Scotland or Holland or Geneva c. was the best Reformed Church was not determined And the English were not engaged in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might by the Covenant to follow the Model of any one of these or all the Reformed Churches in any thing disagreeing from the Word of God and in case a primitive Episcopacy that is Church-Government by a Bishop with a Presbytery as his Counsellors and Assistants prove most agreeable to the Word of God they were bound to set up onely in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might that Government in the Church of England Notwithstanding what the Earl of Bristol when Lord Digby hath written in his Letters to Sir Kenelm Digby viz. He that would reduce the Church now to the Form of Government in the most primitive times should not take in my Opinion the best nor the wisest course I am sure not the safest for he would be found pecking towards the Presbytery of Scotland which for my part I believe in point of Government hath a greater resemblance than yours or ours to the first Age of Christs Church But whatever was the meaning of the Imposers or Takers of the Covenant in those days I have heard an eminent Person a Doctor that had taken it though a Nonconformist declare That he was not bound by it to endeavour any other Reformation than what he had been obliged unto if he never had taken the Covenant that he is not bound to use any unlawful or seditious means or endeavours to bring about a Reformation That the Law of the Land is the Rule to judge by what means or endeavours are unlawful and seditious Quest Do not the Presbyterians play fast and loose and turn with the wind Was not the time once when they held Ruling Elders to be Jure Divino but now they hold no such matter Answ I believe the Scottish Presbyterians were and still are of that Judgement that Ruling Elders are Jure Divino but I knew few English if any that held that Office so save onely in a large sence as many Episcopalians now hold Bishops to be Jure Divino that is a lawful Government not repugnant to the Word of God However 't is said and that by no mean Scholar That Geneva did not first institute those Officers but only restored them And I have read that it was acknowledged by a great Prelate That the Church had in every Church certain Seniors to whom the Government of the Church was