order to which First I believe not only the Doctrins of the Church of England but the points in Controversy between her and her Dissenters for theirs most of them and our Doctrines are the same are founded on holy Writ and extracted from those sacred Fountains of Truth as you say But pray have not several of the Dissenters the very same Basis the Scriptures too even for those Tenents and points in differance between us Coun. How now I hope you are not for making the Scripture play the Satyr in the Fable blow hot and cold both with one Breath can the Scripture reconcile Contradictions can Truth play the Janus And can opposite points of Faith or Divine Rites of Worship be both at once supported by the sacred Oracles of the Gospel Cit. I dare not tell you that they can but this I dare tell you as there is but one God and one Gospel so there are those Great and Fundamental Truths delivered in that Gospel so plain and Evident that he that believes and practises accordingly and to the height of his Ability lives up to the precepts and commands contained in and derived from those Fundamental Truths cannot err in the path to Salvation But on the other side as there are several lesser points contained also in or deduced from that sacred Volume of the revealed Mysteries that from Generation to Generation have admitted of Dispute and which without setting up an Infallible Judge neither have been are or will be adjusted to the end of the World And consequently the numerous Christian Dissenters in those forementioned points of difference between us neither are or will be reconciled as long as the Sun and Moon endure how unreasonable therefore is the Institution of Penal Laws to punish no other Transgression then this Impossible Reconciliation And to bring it more home to the Church of England a Church that utterly disowns any such Infallible Judge confessing her own and all other Fallibility Her punishment of Dissenters carries the most notorious face of Injustice that all her Eloquence can never answer nor Sophistry it self can palliate For what assurance as Fallible can she have but that the Dissenters in those points in Difference may be in the Right and her self in the Wrong and therefore with what forehead dares she pretend in so tender a concern as no less then the Liberties Estates and Lives of her Dissenting Brethren struck at by our Penal Laws to punish Dissent as Erronious when possibly the errour may be on the punishing and not on the offending side Coun. Truly I should be a Dissenter my self should I dare contradict so established an Opinion of our Church as â—â—â—ability And therefore I must acknowledge we â—panâ— no â—â—â—ther assurance of the Right on our side in the aforesaid controverted Points then founding our Truth in that matter in contradiction to their Mistake only upon our Internal Evidence testifying for iâ— Aâ—lâ—ght oâ— Judgment of Conscience that after a serious â—â—atâ—â—re and deliberate Examination and from our own Intâ—â—petation of the Spiritual Records decides in our own Favour and gives Reason and Strength to our own Arguments and Opinions Cit. This very acknowledgement has undone you for the Dissenter himself has that very Light and Judgment of Conscience that in contradiction to all your Reasons decides for his own And if no stronger a Light can erect Penal Laws supposing our Church Government in the Dissenters Hands he has the same parity of Justice to turn all our own Penal Weapons or others as sharp against the very Breast of the now Church of England Coun. Troth Friend to give you your due I think there 's a little small matter of Sense some little smattering of Reason in this Argument of yours that hang me if at present I am provided with a Reply Cit. No matter hear the end of it and lay your own and your helping Neighbours Heads together to answer it He that is an Enemy to this Charter of Religious Liberty and that defends our Penal Laws in matter of Religion and restraint of Conscience or endeavours the choice of those Representatives in Parliament that shall uphold them justifies the Deaths of every Protestant that dyed by the Laws of Queen Mary and all the Erection of Stakes and Inquisition Houses and ought not in Justice to complain were it possible that Popery should ever be so reestablished again in England as that indeed it never can be Coun. Never Are you sure on 't Cit. Yes never But of that in its proper place As I said before grant the supposition of the same reestablishment of Popery He ought not to complain or murmur were the old Smithfeild Fires rekindled and himself one of ahe Number that Blazed in their Flames Coun. Heyday Here 's a bold Lanch indeed But I hope you are not serious for if you are you 'll have tough work to vouch what you say Cit. Not so tough as you fancy For to state the Ballance between them Our Church in Power and Dominion upon the presumption of being the True Ancient and Apostolick Church and her self only in the right sets up Gibbets to punish her Erroneous Recusants and establishes Jayls Consiseations Sequestrations Abjurations Banishments and Halters here again too to punish her erroneous Non-conformists And pray did not the Church of Rome in Power and Dominion set up Fire and Fagot to punish her erroneous Recusants too under the same presumption of being the true ancient Apostoâ—ick Church her self only in the right and her Hereticks in the wrong I might have said greater Presumption for her supposed Infalibility gives her a confidence of that right and wrong which our tenderer Modesty only allows us Hopes of And consequently by the same Equity of Condemnation we tacitly avow her Hereteci Comburendi to be as honest and upright a Law when in force as 27th or 38th of Elizabeth Coun. But hold a little my nimble Friend I hope there 's some little difference between the Church of Rome and the Church of England Cit. I undoubtedly a great one Coun. And therefore I hope the Laws and Penalties to support our Innocent Primitive Faith and Purity as severe as you are pleas'd to represent them and the Laws to support such an Erroneous Superstitious Idolatrous Religion as that of Rome bear some little Disproportion Cit. Disproportion none at all for grant all this outery of Errour Superstition c. against the Romish Religion true she has as authentick a justification of her Penal Laws as we can have of ours We are indeed to consider that the Scripture is that Ark or Cabinet in which Gods Divine Truths are Reposited but with all so Reposited that the Key of Knowledg that opens to them does not unlock to all Men a like T is not the absolute and perfect Knowledge for such Perfection is not given us of Good and Evil and Truth and Falsehood in every entire Part and Particle But only the Presumptive Knowledge of them that sets up Churches and Laws to support them and therefore the Romish Church with an Equal or rather more strong Beleif of her Divine unerring Truth and uprightness has as sufficient and authorative warrant for her penal Inflictions in matter of Conscience as we can have for ours And indeed powr in the Saddle in any Church whatever whether Christian Jewish Mahometan or Heathen it self upon the granted supposition of a human Right of Dominion over Conscience with the same tho not so well gounded a presumtion of Right on their side has the same plea for all the Barbarities that Persecution or Cruelty has can or shall commit And therefore as I said before he that upholds any such penal Power of Restraint of the worship of God and avows the government of Conscience any other then the pecular Province of the Almighty and wholly without the Jurisdiction of Man opens a boundless and insatiate Torrent to all the licentiousness of Tyranny that mad Zeale or Spiritual Pride under the Colour of a Law for that they could not want can set a floating And these very Records our Penal Statutes so uphold deprive us of all Right of Appeal even to God himself against the Injustice or Oppression of any Ecclesiastical Restraint of or Persecution for Conscience that any other Church whatever in power over us does or can excercise upon us For what have we then more done to us then we our selves will to have done to others And more particularly to the Dissenters part if they either infatuated or scarcrow'd out of their Reason shall neglect the embracing of His Majesties gracious Offer and elect any Members of Parliament that they shall know are not inclining to this Religious Liberty they justifie not only the Fines Imprisonments Sequestrations c. that the Members of their own Communion have from Time to Time so violently Suffered from our Penal Laws but also the Deaths and Blood also of so many Thousands for no less then Thousands are their number of their Brethren that have dyed in Jayle under the Restraint of those Penal Laws And consequently they must either confess themselves not in the Truth in exercising that Religious Worship for which they so Suffered or else that whole Congregations of Christians may and ought justly by Law to be deprived of Freedoms Goods Chattels Estates c. and to Rot Starve and Perish in Jayls with Truth on their side and that so Suffering for Truth is Justice and Equity Coun. Why truly Citty Friend these Reasons carry an indifferent fair Face with them Cit. Indifferent only Coun. Then suppose for once I granted your Point thus far I have so many more Rubs and Blocks in your way still that you 'll sind no easie matter to get over Cit. Let us adjourn then this Evening and come as fresh to morrow Morning with 'em as you can
they did sink a little as they call it into a by Pocket of their own I am sure they deserv'd it all To be at the daily charge of Scouts and Pickerouns their Informers and to spend so much in March Beer and other good fortifying Liquors besides so much good Breath in Halloo's to hearten on the cold-scented Constables to hunt down the Conventicles And do you think after all that such hard Labourers in our Church Vinyard deserved nothing Did they not toyl and thresh in the cause to recover those Fines c. And have we not an express Command that we shall not muzle the Ox that treads out the Corn. Cit. Prethee for shame no more of this Banter was the high and mighty Zeal of our late Church Champions our Indefatigable Magistrates in executing the Penal Laws no more then a Religious Money Trap Was the upholding our Church by punishing Dissenters intended as we are made believe for the Propagating of Apostolick Truth and Conversion of Soules and the intended Service of God no more at the Bottom then a false cover for the robbing of Caesar But to leave those private I might say general faults lying at the doors of the Guilty and come to the merit of our Penal Laws what operation have these Penal Laws made these Laws that the Declaration so wisely observes never answered the Ends they were design'd for any more then to drive a few Dissemblers into our Church a handful of Dissenters that possibly in tenderness to their Wives and Children and not prepared for a voyage to Carolina or Pensylvania strained Conscience to temporise with Necessity and so only peept into Church as you observed once a Month to save their Bacon And do all the great and wonderful Penal Feats and Atcheivements terminate only in making a few Hypocrites instead of Converts Coun. Why truly now you talk of Hypocrites I think indeed but few of our compulsion'd Conformists came to Church heartily Cit. Did they not so I need not then recount the loud and woful Anathemas pronounced against Hypocrites and much louder undoubtedly must the Establishers and Executors of such Laws deserve that compel wrack and torture Men out of their true Zeal and Piety into such false and pernicious Hypocrifie And consequently how little of Christianity can dwell under the Roofe of such rotten Fabricks And after all if meer Policy and Reputation of a Church were the only argument for her conduct in that point how much more to Her credit is it to have her Congregations composed of all her own true and zealous professors then to cram in such a mungril sort of Proselites to disgrace the Flock they herd with and what a Derogation to the very glory of God must it be where the Unanimity of Prayers and Praises and an intended Harmony of Hearts in so sacred a Work as that of Devotion is so manifestly Disjoynted and Dissordered by such a Babel Confusion of Worshipers and therefore with what more honourable and fairer face under the Dispensation of Indulgence does our Ecclesiastical Constitution appear where our Temples and Altars are not reproacht â—or profaned I might say by so scandalous a mixture of Communicants Coun. Indeed Friend I do acknowledge that the Executing of the Penal Laws have rarely produced any greater effects then those you mention as having truly more 's the pitty wrought but very few real Conversions for these stif-neckt Dissenters are an incorrgible sort of obstinates but however is an honest good Law to be condemned for no other Defect then want of Power to restrain Offenders you may as well at that rate arraign the ten Commandments nay the very Gospel it self for all the Irreligion and Atheisme of the Age. Cit. Nay Friend stop a little there the Defect of these Penal Laws lyes not only in their want of Power to restrain Offenders as you call e'm for that part of their Defect arraigns only the Policy of those that made them and is the least part of their fault but their greatest and most capital Defect is that the very Tenure and subject matter of those Laws is altogether inexcusable Coun. You will do well to make out all that Charge against them Cit. Alas the every days Arguments on this subject are so publick and so common Coun. That I warrant you are unwilling to be at the trouble of repeating them because perhaps some of them have been said before and are not all your own prethee let not that breake squares between us no matter whose or where they come I shall be glad to hear Reason though as old as Adam and Truth if a Man could meet with it which they say is not ashamed to walk naked has Charms that not like other Beauties are less agreeable or inviting because publick and common Cit. Then take that naked Truth and own the Charms you give her first by what just Authority can the Church of England establish Laws to punish Dissent in Religion and Nonconformity of Worship He that punishes ought to be assured of a Wrong done or an Evil committed by the Transgressor or else both the Law condemning and the punishment inflicted are unjust But the Worship of God according to the best Light of a Christian Conscience and that 's all the Crime the Dissenter is punisht for is so far from Evil that t is the highest duty of Christianity And can that Law be justified by the standard of the Evangelical profession that so notoriously restrains Men from so indispensable a Duty Coun. Alas you mistake your selfe these Laws do not restrain Men from that Worship of God but rather compel'em to it Are not all the Doctrines of the Church of England founded on holy Writ and extracted from â—hat sacred fountain of Truth the Gospel And has not the wisdom and care of our great Reformers weeded and purged the profession of Christianity both in Doctrin and Worship as now believed and practised in the Church of England from all Innoâ—â—â—â—â—â— and Errours whatever crept into it And if God be the God of Order where is Order and Vnity think you to be establisht if not in the Church of God and if that Order be so to be establisht there as undoubtedly t is shall we on the contrary open a Gate by Liberty of Conscience to let in all the dissorder and confusion that such Libertines and Enthusiasts can bring amongst us And is it so great a fault in our Penal Laws or the Maternal care of a Church sometimes in life the Rod to 〈◊〉 an Obstinate and Disobedient Son. Cit. Truly Friend in this wide Answer of yours you have not directly replyed to my Assertion However as you have here mustered the very sum total of all our Church has to urge in vindication of her Penal Laws the Discussion therefore of these her weightiest pretended ponderous Arguments and the Cutting this seeming knotty Gordian will be no little Step towards adjusting our Debate and setting us to Rights In
A Friendly Debate Upon the next ELECTIONS OF PARLIAMENT And the Settlement of Liberty of Conscience In a Dialogue between a City and Country ELECTOR With Allowance Coun. WELL Friend you have promis'd great and wonderful Things if you are but able to performe them And since you are so set agog upon such â— Settlement of Religious Liberty and there 's like to 〈◊〉 such bandying for Parliament Men to go through â—ith the Work that our Penal Laws and Test and all like the old Walls of Troy to let in the Grecian Horse must be pull'd down to make room for it What â—iâ—t you if you begin with the Penal Laws and â—â—nce they carry the more venerable Antiquity of the two â—â—ant your first Battery and try your first Artillery â—gainst those elder Fortifications of our Church Cit. With all my Heart And as I remember â—our tenderness for their Preservation proceeded 〈◊〉 you declared from the Necessity and Validity of â—â—ch Laws for the Defence of our Church and 〈◊〉 Danger threatned Her from their Repeal together with your Justification of the Equity of â—â—â—ose Laws from the Wisdom and Zeal of our 〈◊〉 Pious Reformers that founded them and the continued Industry of all our latter Law-makers in so religioussy and constantly maintaining of â—â—em Coun. Yes much to that Tenure were the Positions I â—id down Cit. To begin therefore and answer first to â—â—ur Dangers c. Let us enquire what our â—â—urch has lost by Liberty of Conscience hitherto â—nath that meanes make some reasonable Examinatiâ—â— to her future Danger by a true View and Survey 〈◊〉 present The King you see has already granted all Men their Liberty of Conscience by vertue of which Liberty they have the freedom of Preaching Prayâ—ng c. without any let or molestation whatever And y'will allow that a Universal Toleration by Act of Parliament can open their Meeting-House Doors no wider then an Universal Indulgence has already done Coun. You are t'th right for that For the passage I confess is as free where the Gates are set open as where they 'r thrown off the Hinges and so an Indulged Liberty or a Magna Charta one is much alike for that But pray what would you infer from thence Cit. Only to ask you what visible loss has the Church of England sustained by this Religious Liberty I suppose when you go to Church your self you are not so wholy taken up with your Devotion but you can now and then spare half a Minute to look about you and see what Company you have there And pray do you find any apparent Diminution or Lessening of your Auditory since this Indulgence Coun. Why truly now you put me to it I think very little But cry you mercy upon recollection I have lately mist some few of our Congregation particularly no less then three or four Eminent Parishioners sometimes Dissenters that during the late Execution of our Penal Laws to my special observation came to Church and are since faln off again By the same token they used to peep in just once a Mouth and no more but better once then never and mark you me they nickt it so prettily that they made their entry just after the exit of the Common Prayer or if by chance they came within three or four closing Lines of it 't was as much as ever I saw 'em strain to And truly when those wholesome good Laws were put in Execution we might have brought a great many more of our Dissenting Parishioners to Church too but that the remiss Justice of Peace of our Precinct was a little too tender hearted Cit. Then I warrant the rest of your Dissenting Parishioners were of the poorer sort and your Justice at Peace did did not think them worth the Prosecution Coun. Vpon my Word you hit him to a Hair. Truly that worthy Gentleman His only fault he was too good Natured for the Authority he bore was observed never to Prosecute any of our Dissenters but the topping Men amongst them the Richest and Fattest of them However he did not make Cobweb Law-work on 't to his praise be it spoken though he suffered the Weak to slip through I assure you he noosed the Granddees to some purpose so sued them and fined them and danced them from piller to post c. And truly to shew you what Blessings of God attended him for this Zeal and Pains taking in the Churches Cause iâ—â—aâ— remarkable that in our late two or three Years Raign of our Penal Laws he thrived better and grew richer then in twenty Years together before he had his Commission Cit. A Justice of Peace Thrive and grow Rich with three Years Penal Laws Why Friend that high Harvest Time well managed was enough to have made them all Aldermen I warrant you this Justice of yours recoverd swinging and thumping Fines upon Fines from them as you talk'd before for these obstinate Noncons I doubt not would endure hard squeezing before they 'd Buckle Coun. Fines Ay and well they scaped so He might have indicted them upon the 35th of Elizabeth and then nothing but Abjuration and Banishment would have served their turns But merciful good Man he contented himself with only pouring out the milder Vials of our softest Penal Wrath in the punishment of their Pockets and Estates by Confiscations Sequestrations c. Cit. Now pray be so kind as to satisfie one Curiosity of mine Coan What 's that Cit. How many of these Fines Confiscations Sequestrations c. you speak of did this merciful good Justice of Peace return into the Exchequer Coun. Humh The Exchequer Cit. I Friend prethee don't shrug at it but for once be candid and answer this Point say how many of them did he return into the Exchequer Coun. Truly if I must out with it I am afraid but few or none that is if the present outcrys of the vexatious Dissenters be true as I hope they are not for alas there 's little credit to be given to so litigious and clamorous a Generation However poor Man he is prudently and timely retired to be out of the malicious noise of them And what if after all he was a little slow or tardy as they call it now and then in some of those Chequer Returns I hope it was no such impardonable Crime to make spoyl of the Egyptians besides His then Gracious Majesty Heavens Peace be with Him did not so much want it perhaps as He and several of those honest Gentlemen in his Post might do And if they did not foresee or fore think of an after Reckoning and possibly might be tempted on a present occasion to make bold in that case probably too like Judas Thirty Pence they might not think it worth the Royal Treasury and therefore might lay it out in a Potters Field or a Daughters Portion or so Alas what then Envy it self can't say but He and indeed all the rest of those worthy Gentlemen under the same Dilemma if