and not the Church by the Ministers The next thing to be considered in this your Reason is your peremptory affirmation but grounded upon no Scripture namely That to set up Independant and separated Churches is a Schisme in it selfe and that it will make great disturbance in the Church both to the outward peace and to the faith and conscience of the people of the Kingdome Now that it is a Schisme in it selfe I deny and prove the contrary thus God hath commanded all his people to separate themselves from all Idolatry c and false worshipping d and false worshippers e and therefore it is no Schisme except you will make God the Author of Schisme this is according to the Prophet Esaiahs words Esay 1. which is the first Lesson that every one ought to learne even to cease to doe evill But I hope it will not be denied but that they are to learne another lesson which is to learne to doe well but to doe well is to keepe all Gods Commandements and to obey God rather then men Now Gods commands to his people is that they learne to know the forme of the house as I have told you before and all the Ordinances of the house and to doe them Ezek. 43. 11. but the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome under the Gospell amongst the rest are Doctrine Fellowship breaking of Bread and Prayer which Ordinances the Saints continued stedfastly in and are commended for their constancie in the same Acts 2. 42 and that in every particular Church or Congregation though there were divers in one Nation and yet I hope you will not affirme it was any disturbance to the Nation otherwise thâ—n Christ hath shewed shall ever be that the seed of the Serpent shall persecute the seede of the Woman for Gods people are said to be a peaceable people and the Lord himself hath said that he hath set them in the world as Lambs among Wolves Now there must needs be a disagreement betweene Lambes and Wolves but the Lambes are not the cause thereof By this you may see that Separation is not a Scisme but obedience to Gods Commandement And for any Magistrate to give way for men to separate from the worship of the Kingdome established by Law if that worship be not according to Gods Law is the Magistrates duty and the Magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because there is no sinne committed Therefore the Magistrate ought not to forbid the practise of Gods Worship when hee hath power to command it for he is set up for the practise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill â—oers And therefore you did well when you admonished the Parliament in your Epistle to cast out of the way all stambling blockes and to breake downe all Images and Crucifixes and to throw downe all 〈◊〉 and remove the High places and to breake to pieces the brazen Serpents which have beene so abused to Idolatry and Superstition So then you grant that much may be done as it seemeth by your speech and yet if there be not a full reformation even to the throwing downe of the High places it will prove a blemish to the reformers You say he that doth not forbid when he hath power he commands But I hope you doubt not but the Parliament hath power and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid by your owne ground they have or doe command But in the Protestation they have not forbidden Gods Worship which is according to his Word but they have Protested and have injoyned others so to doe to maintaine and â—â—â—end the Protestant Religion expressed in the Doctrine of the Church of England against all Popery and Popish Innovations within this Realme c. And in the Interpretation of their meaning of the said Oath they binde us neither to the â—â—t forme of Worship Discipline or Government nor any Rites or Ceremonies of the said Church of England Now if we must withstand Popery and Popish Innovations then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a whole Nation a Church both good and bad without separating the precious from the vile and also such Synods or Counsels that decree and make Lawes and impose them upon any Church to keepe having not the Word of God to warrant them for these are Popish Innovations and to be withstood by us according to our Oath And truely Mr. Edwards you might have asked the independant Ministers a question in private for you knew where to finde them and not have propounded so silly a question before the Parliament when there was none there to answer you Your Question is Whether it be fitting that well meaning Christians should be suffered to goe to make Churches To this I Answer It is fitter for well meaning Christians than for ill-meaning Christians for well-meaning Christians be the fittest on the earth to make Churches and to choose their Officers whether they be Taylors Felt-makers Button-makers Tent-makers Shepherds or Ploughmen or what honest Trade soever if they are well-meaning Christians but ill-meaning Priests are very unfit men to make Churches because what they build up with one hand they pull downe with the other Futuher you seeme to feare the sâ—reading of Heresies if there be not a biâ—drance of these Assemblies But you should rather feare that your owne glory would be eclipsed by their gifts and graces for they are not men of so meane parts as you would make them but are able to divide the Word of God aright by the spirit that God hath given them Therefore I would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for your selfe and for the evills that you have done For Christ will never suffer any to perish for whom he died Thus much for your first Reason IN your second Reason you say the Toleration desired will not helpe to beale the Schismes and Rents of your Church To which I answer that if your Church be not the Church of Christ it will not heale it indeede for though the Prophets would have healed Babel it could not be healed You say that Ministers and people will not submit to the Reformation and Government setled by Law It is very like so if it be not free from Innovations of Popery because they are sworne to the contrary But you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes that the Government of your Church is not ordered according to the Word of God To this I answer If you meane the Church of Englands Government established by the Canon Law I thinke it is out of doubt with the most for they that understand but little doe see and know that that Government is vaine and Popish and that is the reason as I conceive why so many refuse to conforme to it and if you feare that that will prove so great a division you may doe well to counsell the Magistrates to expell all such Government and to reject all such Synods and
THE IVSTIFICATION OF THE Independant CHVRCHES of CHRIST Being an Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his BOOKE which hee hath written against the Government of CHRISTS CHVRCH and Toleration of CHRISTS Publike Worship BRIEFELY DECLARING That the Congregations of the Saints ought not to have Dependancie in Government upon any other or direction in worship from any other than CHRIST their HEAD and LAVV-GIVER By KATHERINE CHIDLEY 1 SAM. 17. 45. Thou commest unto me with a Sword and with a Speare and with a Sheild but I come unto thee in the name of the Lord of Hoasts the God of the armies of Israel whom thou hast defied IVDGES 4. 21. Then Iael Hebers wife tooke a naile of the tent and tooke an hammer in her hand and went softly unto him and smote the naile into his temples and fastened it into the ground for he was fast asleepe and weary and so he died LONDON Printed for WILLIAM LARNAR and are to be sold at his Shop at the Signe of the Golden Anchor neere Pauls-Chaine 1641. TO The CHRISTIAN READER Grace Mercy and Peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ IT is and hath beene for a long time a Question more enquired into than well weighed Whether it be lawfull for such who are informed of the evills of the Church of England to Separate from it For my owne part considering that the Church of England is governed by the Canon Lawes the Discipline of Antichrist and altogether wanteth the Discipline of Christ and that the most of them are ignorant what it is and also doe professe to worship God by a stinted Service-Booke I hold it not onely lawfull but also the duty of all those who are informed of such evills to separate themselves from them and such as doe adhere unto them and also to joyne together in the outward profession and practise of Gods true worship when God hath declared unto them what it is and being thus informed in their minds of the knowledge of the will of God by the teaching of his Sonne Jesus Christ it is their duty to put it in practise not onely in a Land where they have Toleration but also where they are forbidden to preach or teach in the name or by the power of the Lord Jesus But Mr. Edwards with whom I have here to deale conceiving that the beauty of Christs true worship would quickly discover the Foggy darkenesse of the Antichristian devised worship and also that the glory of Christs true Discipline grounded and founded in his Word would soone discover the blacknesse and darkenesse of the Antihristian Government which the poore people of England are in bondage unto hath set his wits a work to withstand the bright comming of Christs Kingdome into the hearts of men which we are all commanded in the most absolute rule of Prayer to petition for for the turning aside whereof Mr. Edwards hath mustred up his forces even eight Reasons against the government of Christ which hee calls Independant and hath joyned unto these eight ten more which he hath made against Toleration affirming that they may not practise contrary to the course of the Nation wherein they live without the leave of the Magistrate neither judgeth he it commendable in them to aske the Magistrates leave nor commendable in the Magistrate to heare their petitions but rather seeketh to stirre up all men to disturbe their peace affirming most unjustly that they disturbe the peace of the Kingdome nay the peace of three Kingdomes which all the lands under the Kings Dominions know to be contrary nay I thinke most of the Kingdomes in Europe cannot be ignorant what the cause of the disturbance was But this is not the practise of Mr. Edwards alone but also of the whole generation of the Clergie as thou maist know Christian Reader it was the practise of the Bishop of Canterbury to exclaime against Mr Burton Doctor Bastwicke and Mr. Prynne calling them scandalous Libellers Innovators though they put their own name to that which they write and proved what they taught by divine authority and this hath beene alwayes the practise of the instruments of Sathan to accuse the Lords people for disturbing of the peace as it hath beene found in many Nations when indeede the troublers be themselves and their fathers house But in this they are like unto Athalia crying treason treason when they are in the treason themselves But for the further strengthning of his army he hath also subjoyned unto these his Answer to sixe Reasons which he saith are theirs but the forme of some of them seemeth to be of his owne making all which thou shalt finde answered and disproved in this following Treatise But though these my Answers are not laid downe in a Schollerlik way but by the plaine truth of holy Scripture yet I beseech thee have the patience to take the paynes to reade them and spare some time to consider them and if thou findest things disorderly placed laâ—our to rectifie them to thine own mind And if there be any weight in them give the glory to God but if thou feest nothing worthy attribute not the weakenesse thereof to the truth of the cause but rather to the ignorance and unskilfulnesse of the weake Instrument Thine in the Lord Jesus KATHERINE CHIDLEY THE Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his INTRODVCTION _â— Hearing the complaints of many that were godly against the Booke that Mr. Edwards hath written and upon the sight of this his Introduction considering his desperate resolution namely that he would set out severall Tractates against the whole way of Separation I could not but declare by the testimony of the Scripture it selfe that the way of Separation is the way of God who is the author of it * which manifestly appeares by his separating of his Church from the world and the world from his Church in all ages When the Church was greater than the world then the world was to be separated from the Church but when the world was greater than the Church then the Church was to separate from the world As for instance When Caine was a member of the Church then the Church was greater than the world and Caine being discovered was exempted from Gods presence * before whom he formerly had presented himselfe c but in the time of Noah when the world was greater than the Church d then Noah and his Family who were the Church were commanded to goe into the Arke e in which place they were saved when the world was drowned f yet Ham being afterward discovered was accursed of his Father and Shem was blessed and good prophesied for Iaphat Afterward when the world was grown mightier than the Church againe then Abraham was called out of Vr of the Caldeans both from his country and from his kindred and from his fathers house g because they were Idolatâ—rs to â—â—â—ship God in Canaan Moreover afterwards Moses was seâ—â— and his brother Aaron to deliver the
all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
Counsells and to labour to understand the minde of God and to set up his Government over Beleevers in the Kingdome of England And whereas you say that many of the people who yet be not in this Church way are possessed with these principles of the Independant way and much looking towards it I say it is pitty they should any longer be led about by the way of the Wildernesse 2. You doe affirme that the mindes of multitudes of Professors in England and especially in the City of London are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or discipline that is not commonly received by the Church I answer Indeede the Proverbe is verified upon them The burned child dreads the fire for they have beene so long deceived by your false glosses that now their eyes being a little open the light appeareth very sweete unto them yea although they see men but like trees as the blinde man when his eyes began to be opened who had beene blinde from his birth The third thing which you have laid downe in this Reason is That the Ministers will not be tied from preaching those points in publike nor from speaking of them in private To which I answer I hope they will not indeed for it were their great sinne if they should not declare Gods whole Councell so farre as he hath revealed it unto them But if they would you say the people both men and women are sâ— strangely bold and pragmaticall and so highly conceited of their way as the Kingdome of Christ and the onely way of Christ that out of those principles they would be drawing many of their friendship and kindred and many would say you come unto them I answer that this I hope you count a vertue for it is the property of the Sheepe when they fare well to call their fellowes But Hogges will not doe so The fourth thing to be minded is that you say Liberty the power of government and rule to be in the people are mighty pleasing to flesh and blood especially in meane persons and such as have beene kept under To which I answer that they that have beene kept under have beene kept under by the tyranny of the Man of Sinne This you confesse to be especially the poore upon whom those Taskemasters have laid the greatest burthens Therefore for them to affect liberty is no wonder And whereas you say they would have the power and Rule I answer It is not any power or Rule which is pleasing to the flesh as you speake thinking them to be like those Priests Whose god is their belly whose glory is their shame who minde earthly things but it is the power of Christ which they stand for as they are members of the Churches of Christ to which Churches Christ the King thereof hath given all power in spirituall things And that the Church of Christ consisteth of meane persons is no wonder for wee have learned that the poore receive the Gospell and you know you have granted that it stands with the light and Law of Nature That the liberty power and rule should be in the whole and not in one man or a few so that the power must rest in the body and not in the Officers though the Church be never so poore Now the fifth thing you minde in this Reason is That Tolleration will be made use of to strengthen their way And you also conclude it will be granted that the ablest Ministers could not answer them and therefore were content they should have a Tolleration You doe very well to feare the worst but you had done better if you had armed your selfe against them and answered the Scriptures they bring by Scripture But it is a plaine case you could not do that therfore your feare was just but if you were a wellminded man or a wellmeaning Christian man you should not have feared the comming of the truth to light nor have been afraid of reformation because it would worke to your greater divisions and rents for Christ came not to set peace upon the earth as I have told you before but the seede of the Serpent will be ever playing his part Thus much for your second Reason IN your third Reason you affirme That Tolleration will breed divisions and Schismes disturbing the peace and quiet of Churches and Townes I answer I have told you already we plead for no tolleration that shall disturbe the peace of Churches or Townes Moreover you say it will not onely doe so but it will also breed divisions in families betweene husband and wife brother and brother To which I answer There was a division in the first Family that ever was and brother rose up against brother but Tolleration was not the cause of it but the malice of Sathan in the seed of the Serpent as it hath beene and is now at this day And this is according to Christs words Luke 12. 52 53. which saith That there shall be five in one house two against three and three against two c. and in Matth. 10. 34 35 36. Thinke not saith he that I come to send peace into the earth I came not to send peace but the sword For I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother and the daughter in Law against her mother in Law and a mans enemies shall be they of his owne household and moreover in Luke 21. 16. our Saviour doth declare that we shall be betrayed both by parents and brethren and kinssolkes and friends Now if Christ may be said to be the Author of evill then you may say that Toleration of true Religion is the cause of this division Againe you say O how this will occasion disobedience To this your Lamentation I answer O that you would remember the rule * that every servant ought to count his Master worthy of all honour and in the judgement of charitie beleeve that persons professing the Gospel will learne that lesson Next you say O! how will this take away that power authority which God hath given to Husbands Fathers and Masters over wives children and servants To this I answer O! that you would consider the text in 1 Cor. 7. which plainly declares that the wife may be a beleever the husband an unbeleever but if you have considered this text I pray you tell me what authority this unbeleeving husband hath over the conscience of his beleeving wife It is true he hath authority over her in bodily and civill respects but not to be a Lord over her conscience and the like may be said of fathers and masters and it is the very same authority which the Soveraigne hath over all his subjects therfore it must needes reach to families for it is granted that the King hath power according to the Law over the bodies goods and lives of all his subjects yet it is Christ the King of Kings that reigneth over their
to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
the 2 Pet. 2. 2. That many shall follow their destruction and some of them shall doe it through covetousnesse who shall with fained words make merchandise of the Lords people as is plaine in the next verse whose destruction sleepeth not But who these creepers in be appeares by the 15. verse of this Chapter That they were they that loved the wages of unrighteousnesse as Balaam did But if any one so doe his last end shall be worse ' then his beginning Thus much for your ninth Reason IN your Tenth Reason you affirme That the first principle of the Independant way is That two or three Saints wheresoever or by what meanes soever they doe arise separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the Gospell are a Church truely gathered for this you quete Mr. Robinsons Iustification pag. 221. But in that page there is no such thing written as I can finde but seeing it commeth so neere the truth we neede not to contend about it For I doe affirme that a company of Saints Separated from the world and gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell by what meanes so ever it be that matters not so it be by the teaching of the Sonne of God according to that in Heb. 1. 1. these Saints I say separating themselves and being gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell though they combine themselves without the warrant of the Governours are a true Church and have right to all Gods Ordinances not onely to admit men into fellowship but also to admonish to reprove and to cast out of their societie all obstinate offenders amongst them that doe transgresse either against the first or second Table having as hath beene said before the Spirit of God to guide them and wisedome from above to judge of persons and causes within the Church though they have nothing to doe to judge those that are without And this doth not make way for Libertisnime for Heresies and Sectaries as you say neither doth it make men to runne from their owne Ministers because they restraine them from sinne or keepe them to Gods Ordinances as you doe affirme for if any separate for any such cause they shall not be received into fellowship nor justified of any of the Lords people But the way of the Gospell as hath beene plainely proved is not to live without Gods Ordinances nor to live at liberty as you say except you meane the liberty wherein Christ hath set them and commanded them to stand fast because he hath made them free Gal. 5. 1. By this you may see the Saints are called into liberty but not a liberty to sinne as you would insinuate but to be freed from the yoake of bondage which is the tyranny or tyrannicall government of the Canon Lawes either of Rome or England But you say all heretickes Sectaries or libertines will count themselves Saints as well as the Independant men and the reason you seeme to give for this is because the Ministers and Magistrats of the Kingdome shall not have power to determine who be Saints * Now let all men judge what a weighty argument this is who is he that knows any thing knows not this that the Priests in England which are the Bishops creatures do generally justifie the wicked and condemne the just and are not these meet men to judge Saints they justifie none that will not be conformable and yeeld unto the traditions which they have invented in their Councels and Convocations though they have not one title of Gods Word to warrant them Furthermore they condemne all that will not submit to their devised worship even in all the traditions thereof and this is the dependancie which they have brought all men unto both high and low even to be subject to their wills which is a Law But now touching the Magistrate you would seeme to inferre that he should have no more power than a Priest It is plaine the Priests have no power but what they have by permission and sufferance though they have dependancie upon the Pope himselfe but the Magistrate hath power given him of God by whom he is set up for the praise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill doers and hath the same rule given him whereby to judge them that God hath given to his Church especially Christian Magistrates notwithstanning they are opposed yet they have power given of God as you may reade in Acls 7 35. This man Moses whom they forsooke saying who maâ—e thee a Prince and a Iudge the same God sent for a Prince and a deliverer and this is he which was as a God unto Aaron when Aaron was as the mouth of Moses to the people Exod. 4. 16. Now if you Priests could have proved your selves as Aaron then you might have beene assistants to Godly Magistrates to deliver the Lords people out of the hands of Tyrannicall Princes but contrariwise you adde afflictions as Pharaohs Taskemasters did even you Mr. Edwards when you say the Lords people are wanton-witted and idle when they desire to have liberty to serve God And thus you sit in the consciences of men judging zeale to be hypocrisie but the time will come when every worke shall be brought to judgement And now drawing neere to an end of this Answer to your tenth Reason which is the last of this your joyned army it is good to looke backe a little and consider what hath beene said You have spoken much for Dependencie but upon whom you doe depend I cannot tell You labour to bring men into doubts by your suppositions but you doe not make any conclusion which is Gods way that men fearing God may expect a blessing when they walke in it but you cry out for Dependencie upon Councels and Synods and Churches I pray you what Dependencie hath the Church of England upon any other Church for I suppose you will say that all the Land is but one Church If you say that you have Dependencie upon the Church of Rome I doe beleeve you for the Bishop of Canterbury hath said so much in his booke where hee confesseth Rome to be as leprous Naaman and England to be the same Naaman cleansed Now that it is the same may easily be proved by divers of your owne Authors But you in your Epistle affirme it is not cleansed in that place where you say that there is yet Altars and Images brasen Serpents abused to Idolatry with divers other things which you would have purged out By this it appeares that it is the same with Rome in the very nature of it though not in every Circumstance and this for any thing can be discerned is the Dependancie for which you pleade even the Dependancie and affinitie betweene Rome and England Therefore you should rather have said That in the belly of this Dependancie doth lurke all liberty and heresie and whatsoever Sathan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach For in that
way it is too common for men to broach their owne pleasures for their Religion is made of mens inventions Thus much for your 10th Reason YEt furthermore for addition to these ten Reasons you adde a Question * your Qeustion is what these men would have in this Toleration Whether the number of five or sixe Congregations onely and no more Or whether the number shall be left undetermined and be free to multiply c. For answer to this I doe affirme that the number ought not to be limitted for the Churches of the New Testament were free to multiply not onely in greatnesse but also in number I say they were left free by God for the Apostles were not limitted from constituting Churches wheresoever men were brought to beleeve in Christ But say you it is their principles to breake one Church in two or three I answer I know no man that holdeth any such principle But say you it hath beene so at Amsterdam Roterdam and London To this I answer I deny not but that there may be offences taken and sometimes given which may cause men to depart one from another as Paul and Barnabas did sometimes about persons and sometimes about things and wofull experience teacheth all men that brethren are apt to fall out by the way and that Ioseph knew very well when he admonished his brethren to the contrary * But though some should be offended and could not be reconciled as the Scripture saith a brother offended is harder to be wonne than a strong citie * yet the departing of such a brother or brethâ—en cannot make that Church two Churches yet notwithstanding this may sometimes tend to the further spreading of the Gospell even as the departing of Paul and Barnabas did Not that I justifie the practise of any that are not apt to beare but that God doth sometimes bring good out of evill as it was in the selling of Ioseph * by turning it to his owne glory and the good and comfort of his people Therefore you neede not to marvell which shall be the state approved by the Magistrate because that properly there remaineth but one intire state in such cases of division as you have before mentioned By all this it appeares that it is none of our principles to breake one Church into two or three But you say if the number be left undetermined there may be many Churches in a Towne For answer whereof I must tell you that I reade in the Scriptures of no more Churches in a towne but one as in Ierusalem where there were many Converts yet I reade but of one Church Now this was in the first plantation of the Gospell but what they might increase to afterward the Scripture is silent in for any thing I know But that there may be two or three in one place as you say that seemeth unto me to be confusion except they should meete in one place for consultation which may very well be for God is the God of Order and not of confusion And I never reade in the Scripture that two Churches met together in one place for the practise of publike worship But say you we may have every where three or foure men of an opinion differing from others to goe to make a Church To this I answer If you meane by every where in every Towne of the Land I say although it should be so and though there be sixe townes in a Parish yet it will be no no confusion for the fewer they are together the lesse ground will there be of fearing them But touching divisions and subdivisions If any such thing happen it is but that which we have bin told on before The Apostles words are these They went out from us because they were not of us c. * and if evill minded men that crept in departed from Christ * we neede not to thinke much that such creepers in should depard from us also yet the disorderly going away of any as I have said before doth not make them a Church which goe away disorderly And thus I have given you an answer to your second tenth Reason * for in your Booke you have by your stile made it a Reason though you seemed at the first entrance into it to make it but a question But before you conclude the whole you subjoyne to these the Answer to five or sixe things which you would make to be their reasons and you say that they are continually alleadged by them for their toleration in this Kingdome THe first Reason you say they bring is that toleration is no more then the French and Dutch enjoy who live among us Indeede that is a very good reason for methinkes it stands with equitie that Natives borne should have as much priviledge as Strangers But you would seeme to alter the state of the case in sixe respects First That the French and Dutch Protestants have nothing nor desire nothing as contra distinct to the Protestants of France and Holland I answer if the Protestants of France and Holland have liberty of their conscience and be not at all burdened with Iewish Popish or Heathenish Observations but may be free there to worship God according to his Will revealed in his Word then they that are here amongst us neede not to seeke more liberty and I am sure the Independant men will aske no more Secondly you say that this liberty was granted by our Pioâ—s Princes in the times of persecution to the Protestants Here you crosse your first respect for if these Protestants were persecuted in France then it is certaine their Religion was different from the state of their owne Nation for you say they could not enjoy their Religion at home Furthermore you adde that it hath beene kept ever since for a refuge to the persecuted Protestants To which I answer The very like may be said of the libertie granted to the English Church in Amsterdame which hath beene a refuge for the Protestants which have beene persecuted out of England ever since But you say we may enjoy our Religion in this Land and that by the authority of the King and Parliament If it be so I pray you what is the meaning of the bleating of such cattell as your selfe which cry out dayly to the King and Parliament for the suppression of the Lords people and for the hindring of their meetings Thirdly you say The French and Dutch Churches will willingly be joyned in Government and in one way of discipline with the Kingdome if there be a Reformation Indeede if you had not added a great If here you had told a loud untruth but if this were performed that there were a Reformation according to Gods Will I doubt not but the Independant men would doe the like Fourthly you say these Churches doe not hold our principles but doe admit of appeales in great businesses I answer I have told you already and I now tell you againe that I admit of
appeales also such as the Scripture warrants and I have declared at large what appeales they be * Fifthly you say they be strangers different in Language and have little acquaintance with you keeping themselves for the most part among themselves and therefore say you there will be the lesse danger of drawing away the people I answer if they differ so little from you as you would make the world beleeve there were small cause of danger or Schisme if they will willingly be joyned as you said before in Government and in one way of discipline with the Kingdome Further you adde that they vent no principles against your Church and Government I answer Indeede if they should never open a mouth to speake yet their practise makes them different from you both in worship and government and yet it may be upon better considerations they may draw neerer to the rule hereafterâ— but for my part I leave them as being partly ignorant of their practise But you say they will not admit your people to be members of their Congregations Answer Indeede I doe not know that ever they have refused any but this much I know that some English people that have the French and Dutch tongue have and doe goe thither to heare but that any should desire to goe thither to heare that have not the language were very absurd Sixthly There is say you a great reason and necessity of allowing them Churches and places to preach and be by themâ—â—lves and the reasons you yeeld are 1 because many of them understand not English at all and 2 for the benefit of strangers of their owne Religion To which I answer The very same may be said concerning the English Churches in Holland But further you adde that they may well be allowed some Discipline among themselves in respect they maintaine all their owne poore Methinks Mr. Edwards there should be much more reason that the English Protestants or Separates should be tolerated for the same cause for they maintaine all their owne poore also And furthermore they maintaine the poore of the Church of England yea in every parish where their dwelling houses stand they pay to the poore weekely as well as any other man They also pay their money for the maintenance of the Visited Houses in the Parishes where they dwell Nay furthermore they pay also their mony for the maintenance of the Priests of England the more is the pitty and so I feare the Dutch and French doe also yea though the Priests are as Popish as they were in Qâ—eene Maries time And this is well knowne to all Landlords that doe let them houses for if they know them to be Separates and that they will not have to doe with the Priests in the pay ment of that they call dues they make their Tenant pay the more rent for if the Tenant will not the Landlord must And by this you may see their burthens are double to other mens in that they must maintaine their owne poore and their owne Ministers and the Church of Englands also And by this you may see that you have not in the least altered the state of the case betweene the Dutch and French and us in the causes before mentioned Therefore this their first reason for toleration lies yet unanswered by you FOr answer to their second Reason which you say is that they seeke no more then is granted them in Holland your answer to it is this That if that be a good ground then Jewes and Anabaptists may have a toleration also To this I answer For my part I speake for my selfe and I suppose that they may say as much for themselves in these late respects which you have mentioned as the Separates doe for they maintaine their poore and their Ministers and the poore and the Priests of the Church of England as well as we And I thinke they are persecuted and hunted also but I will leave them to pleade for themselves Further you adde That such a Toleration is not fit neither in Divinity nor in policie I answer I know no true Divinitie that teacheth men to be Lords over the conscience and I thinke it is no part of Godly policie to drive the Kings subjects out of the land because they desire free liberty to worship God in the Land according to his will the States of Holland are counted politicke and yet they esteeme it the Strength of their Kingdome to grant free libertie of conscience Secondly you say there may be a toleration for us in Holland with much more safety to the government established then can be here because the people understand not our language and also have little or no relation to us of kindred and friendship c. I answer I must say to you as I have said already that there was never any danger to a Kingdome to suffer the Lords people to live quietly and enjoy their liberty Thirdly you say The people of the Holenders are generally industrious and mind their businesse and keeping to what is established by their Lawes not troubling their heads so much with other points of Religion By this one may easily perceive your minde Mr. Edwards with the rest of your fellowes and also know that you are naturally derived from Rome in that you would have all men to content themselves with an implicit faith and to take for granted what government your Lawes alloweth and what worship your inventions have hatcht and not to search the the Scripture at all Further you add here that the people in England are not so especially in this city of London and great Townes you say many of the professors are more idle and busie bodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton also in their wits affecting novelties in Religion c. Now truly Mr. Edwards if you were of my mind and were a member of such a Church that had such members in it you woulde be so farre from fearing of being beguilded of them that you would be very glad to have such birds taken out of your nest But you are so farre from observing the rule of Christ Matth. 18. 15. that is to tell your brother of his fault betweene him and you that you rather walke with slanders and elamours vilifying your owne mothers sonnes so that every good man may be ashamed of you Fourthly you say that Holland tolerates us and many others but it is more upon grounds and necessitie of worldly respects because of the benifite of exsise towards the maintenance of warre Now Mr. Edwards you have utterly overthrowne your owne Argument laid downe in the beginning of your answer to this their second Reason for then you said it was against the rule of policie but now you say it is their policie And whereas you would make the case different betweene England and Holland I answer It is not different at all for England hath the Subjects purses to maintaine warres as well as Holland
and though it be not in exsise for victuals yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of Holland are freed The next thing you affirme is That your riches and strength standeth in one way of Religion To which I answer I thinke if I could understand your minde herein you meane the riches and strength of the Priests for I am sure the riches and strength of the Kingdome may stand best with Toleration as it may appeare partly by what hath been said already for you have heard that the Lords people whom you thus persecute maintaine their owne poore And it will also be made appeare that they pay Scot and Lot in the Kingdome in all civill respects and are all as true subjects to the Kings Majesty and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies and estates as any in the Kingdome But I confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the Priests for it is sore against the peoples will that they pay them any thing now and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare what the Priests wages iâ— * but that shall be done hereafter THeir third Reason you say is That if they have not liberty to erect some Congregations it will force them to leave the Kingdome For answer whereof you doe affirme in the first place that there is no neede of a toleration for them neither that they should leave the Kingdome for conscience and that you say will appeare by the Reasons and principles which they doe agree to which you say are these First that they hold your Churches true your Ministers true Ordinances true Further you say they can partake with you in your Congregations in all Ordinances even to the Lords Supper To which I answer Indeede here you would make the Readers beleeve that they had opened a wide gappe if they should take your affirmation without your provisall but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely in that you say their condition was that it must first be provided that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe and Cerimonies must be removed Methinks this is a mighty great mountaine that stands between them and you and therefore you have small cause to aske them wherfore they should desire to set up Churches fortill this mountaine be removed they may be true to their own principles and not go from their word and yet never communicate with you either in worship or government For first If you keepe out all scandalous persons out of all the Churches in England from the Sacraments and all ignorant persons truely then your Churches will be as emptie as ours Secondly If you should remove away all your Ceremonies which is the second part of your reformation you could not tell how to worship for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented Ceremonies But if you can procure such a reformation to have your Church all consist of persons of knowledge fearing God and â—ating covetousnesse void of all other scandalls so far as we can judge by the Scripture and that the Ceremonies may be removed and we enjoy as you bragge all Gods Ordinances with you as well as in our owne Churches then you shall heare what I will say to you as well as the Independant men But till all this be done you see there is still good reason for good men either to desire liberty or to leave the Kingdome Further you say some of them could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst you upon the Reformation I Answer Indeede such a Reformation which you have formerly mentioned will hardly stand with Parochiall Churches But you say they could yeeld to Presbyteriall Government by Classes and Synods so they might not be injoyned to submit to it as Jure Divino To which I answer It seemes by your owne confession that they doe deny the Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be from God as it appeares in that you say they will not submit to it as Iure Divino and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe in all this your reasoning with your Synods and Classes also so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a Toleration that the Saints may grow into bodies even in this Land But to grow into one body with you as you would have them while your Churches body is like a Leopard and all bespotted as appeares by your words were very absurd for you â—â—â—e affirme that the best of your members even the Professors especially of London and of the great Townes in England are very fâ—â—le yet I hope you will confesse that they are the best of your members then if it be true as you say that you must remove in your Reformation all ignorant and scandalous persons by your grounds you should have but a very few to make a Church of as well as wee For you must remove also all your Professors which you say are so scandalous Therefore I should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done and be reconciled to God the Father and Christ his Sonne and separate your selves from all your wickednesse and even come and grow up into one body with us Secondly you say Seeing your Churches Ministers and Ordinances be true the erecting of new and withdrawing from such Congregations can never be answered to God I answer Here you take for granted that which you cannot prove and it is your wisdome so to doe for by that meanes you may make simple people beleeve that you are very right except a few defects which no man shall be freed from while he is in this life But now to the point and first touching your Churches and Ministers which you say be true and you also say the Independant men would grant them to be true upon a Reformation such as the Word requires I tell you for answer that this your juggling will not helpe you for no man is bound to take your bare word therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said But before you goe to prove your Churches true declare unto me what Churches you meane for I ever tooke the whole Land of England to be but one Church as it stands established by the Canon Laws and that all the Parishes in the Land make up but one entire body therefore what is amisse in one Parish all the whole are guilty of and it will be laid to the charge of the Archbishops who are the Metropolitanes or chiefe Priests over the Church of the Land Seeing it is so you must stand out to maintaine your Church and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your Church-es for I know no dependancie you have upon any except it be Rome according as I have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth Reason against Independencie Therefore this is the Church that you must maintaine even the Church of England established
by the Canon Laws consisting of Archbishops Diocesan Bishops with all the rest of that erew for this is indeed both your Church and Ministry which doth appeare by your owne ground because you affirme that in this part lieth all the power but by your owne grounds the whole body of the Land I meane of the Laitie as you call them hath no power at all to reforme any abuse therfore this Clergy must needs be your Church and thus you make your selves the head and body and all the rest of the Land the â—ayle to follow after you Now if you can prove this to be a true Church which hath neither ground nor footing in Christs Testament you will worke wonders but indeede such wonders have been wrought by you for all the world hath wondered and runne after the beast saying Who is like unto him and who is able to make warre with him as you may plainely see in the 13. of the Reveation Therefore they that doe justifie such a Church are such as have beene deceived by her false miracles even by the fire which she hath made to come downe from heaven I pray you did not fire come downe from heaven in Queene Maries time and devour the Saints in Smithfield if you understand heaven in that place as I understand it to be the seate of the Magistrate you must grant the same for they are called Gods and the children of the most high For your forefathers did as Pilaâ— did wash their hands from the blood of the Saints and of the innocent and turned them over for their sentence of condemnation to the Secular power which you made your hornes and your heads pushed them forward to execute your bloody cruelty and thus you may see that fire came downe from heaven in the sight or apprehension of men for most that beheld it thought it was just because it was the sentence of the Magistrate And by this all men may see that you of the Clergie are the Church of England and that this Clergy came from Rome and that therefore your Church is derived from Rome Now if you would know whence the Church of Rome was derived I conceive that her power was derived from the beast with seven heads which rose up out of the sea as you may read of in the thirteenth of the Revelations for there both those beasts are mentioned and also the Image of the first beast which the second beast hath caused to be made which is even here in England amongst us and you may see I have proved unto you already what it is as you may also read in the 15. verse of that Chapter it was that to whom the beast gave a spirit and also he gave it power that it should speake and cause as many as would not worship the Image of the beast to be killed and hath not this Image caused aboundance to be killed in England and hath not he caused all to receive his marke or his name or the number of his name and they that have it not may neither buy nor sell as it is apparant by the testimonie of the Scripture it selfe and wofull experience And is not this Image the Church that now you â—leade for which consisteth of all the Priests of England if it be not I pray you tell me what it is But if this be it as it appeares it is then these are your Ministers also and then it hath beene proved plainely whence this your Church and Ministry came And that any of understanding should grant this Church and Ministry to be a true Church and Ministery would bewray great ignorance in them Further you adde that they acknowledge the Ordinances to be true In this I doe beleeve you upon your bare word for it is a truth if you meane Gods Ordinances which you have amongst you As first you have the Scripture but you wring it and wrest it according to your owne devices and make of it a nose of waxe and a leaden rule to leane which way your minde leadeth you and though you ought to take that reede or rod in your hand at all times if you were Gods messengers to measure both the Temple and the Altar and the worshippers Rev. 11. 2 yet you have not learned that skill for your Church and Ministrie holdeth no correspondencie with that measuring line but contrariwise you have taken that golden cup and filled it full of abominations â—ay you have hacked it and mangled it to peeces and made it into little lessons which you call your Epistles and Gospells they are Dedicated to your Saints upon your Saints-Dayes and thus you may see though you have the Scriptures which is the Word of God and take upon you to unfold the mysteries thereof yet in stead of that you darken the truth by false glosses Secondly you have the Sacraments even baptisme and breaking of breade but you pervert them both to your owne destruction neverthelesse they still remaine Gods Ordinances even as the golden vessells were Gods vessels when they were in Babel though Belsâ—azar made them his quaâ—â—ing boules yet still they remained to be Gods vessels Even so did Circumcision remaine Gods Ordinance though it was with Ieroboâ—â— The like may be said of Baptisme it still remaines Gods Ordinance though it be carried away with backâ—sliding Antichristians even the Apostate fallen stats and so you may read in the eleventh of the Revelation ver. 2. that the court must be left out and be unmeasured and the reason was because it was given to the Gentiles even to them that should tread downe the holy citie for 42. monethes this court we know belonged to the Temple as you may read in the 42. of Ezekiel and had in it the Ordinances belonging to the people And although you have Baptisme and the Lords Supper they will not sanctifie you though they may be sanctified to the use of them amongst you which are Gods people according to the election of grace And though you have some of Gods Ordinances amongst you yet you have added unto them many Ordinances of your owne devising which doth utterly debarre the Lords people which have knowledge of them from communicating with you in any worship As for example How shall any man partake with you of the word preached in your assemblies but he must needs partake also with the false calling of the Priest by which it is preached for none else are suffered to preach amongst you by your leave or approbation but they that preach by that false power And who shall receive the Sacraments with you and not justifie your devised Service-booke for all your things are administred by that And as all the Lords Ordinances ought to be sanctified by the Word of God and prayer So on the contrarie you labour to sanctifie your things by the stinted service-booke and therefore the withdrawing from you may be answered to God Further you beare the world in hand that you
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel
is worthy of his hire and that it is their duty to make them partakers of their carnall things of whom they receive spirituall things Further you are carefull to have them sober and peaceable and not to preach and speake against what is established by Law * Indeede I must tell you in my judgement no man can make way for a true Reformation except hee declare what is evill before he shew what is good Further you say you suppose subscriptions will not be injoyned to formes of Government and Discipline Here you seeme to yeeld that your formes of Government and Discipline be not of God then if there be no injunction none will obey but if injunctions none will obey for conscience for what good man can yeeld to an injuction that is not of God so then you may see your injunctions have beene the way and meanes to breed and bring forth a world of hypocrites as one may easily see by the Timeservers of your Church But you say that without a toleration we may injoy in a secret way our Church fellowship Indeede M. Edwards we have learned that lesson already for Christ hath taught us that we shall fly into the Wildernesse * and that the earth shall helpe us * but sometimes it proves to the danger of our lives and alwayes to the danger of our liberty as it may appeare by the practise herein London for though wee meete never so privately and peaceably yet such Cattle as your selfe are alwayes bleeting in the eares of your Parish Officers and Constables with your other Officers even till you move the Lord Major himself to be your drudge and as your horne which you push forward for the destruction of our bodies when he hath laid violent hands on them for it is evident that it hath beene to the losse of some of their lives and this is the liberty we have in this Kingdome and all through the instigation of you Priests But you say though some of the more sober and conscientious Ministers and people could use it better yet the Brownists and Anabaptists and weake brethren would be apt to scandall and therefore to avoid scandall you would iâ—siâ—â—ate that we are bound to neglect the whole forme of Church worship I told you before and I tell you now that you are afraid to have your owne glory ecclipsed and by this all men may see and by all your formers answers also that you would have us to enjoy in this Kingdome neither Ordinances nor conscience The next thing you lay downe is the judgement of an antient Father But indeede he is as sound in the faith as your selfe for hee would have men to joyne to Churches that have no power * And this being the sixth answer that you have given to their third reason you entreat them to lay all your sixe together and to consider sâ—â—ly whether God require unlesse they have a toleration to leave the Kingdome to runne many hazards and dangers when as they may enjoy so much at home without a Toleration as you say you have opened to these sixe answers To â—ch I answer when they are laid all six together they make but a peece of an answer to one of their Reasons and this piece of your answer is stuffed full of falicies as hath beene already proved and may further appeare by the conclusion of all here when you say they may have so much at home for it hath beene proved already that they can have nothing at home either in respect of liberty or worship but what they must have by stealth for when they would injoy the Ordinances of God which are Iewels which you would have none to have but your selves that so you might seeme glorious If any I say will presume to borow the Iewels and carry them away you will pursue after them and you know it was the practise of the Egyptians of old for they would have suffered the Israelites to have gone away empty and left their cattle behinde them so that they might have had nothing with them to have offered sacrifice withall and I pray you were not the Southsayers the cause of this by withstanding Moses and Aaron against the children of Israel even by the false Figures which they cast before the eyes of Phaâ—aoh to harden Pharâ—ahs heart even as you Priests doe at this day And thus I have laid together your sixe Reasons and weighed them but one truth is sufficient to over weigh them all But yet you have also a seventh Answer which is by it selfe and it is this That if they will not be satisfied say you without setting up Churches it is better they should get out of the Kingdome Besides you would have all others that be of this minde to leave the Land and goe to new-New-England that cannot be satisfied but that they must erect Churches to the disturbing of the peace of three Kingdomes Truely Mr. Edwards you shew your selfe a bloody minded man that would have the Innocent suffer for the faults of them that are guilty Was not the sending of your Masse-bookes into Scotland the cause of the disturbance and hath it not appeared plaine enough to the Parliament and to the Scots before the Parliament sate that the Bishops and Priests were the cause of the disturbance I doubt not but you have read both the Scotish Intentions and their Demands with their Declarations which have plainely manifested who and what was the cause of the disturbance it was not the meeting of a handfull of the Lords people which ever sought and do seeke the good and wellfare of the three Kingdomes with the life happy reigne of their Soveraigne Lord the King who alwayes sue unto God for the peace of the Kingdome in whose peace they may enjoy peace but contrariwise it plainely appeares that it was you and your Fathers house which caused this variance But say you it will be no great harme for many of them to goe away I answer It is like you apprehend the Judgements of God comming upon you and you thinke to be eased by driving out the Lords people in haste Further you say you would rather goe to the uttermost parts of the earth to live in a meane and hard condition rather than you would disturbe the peace or good of three Kingdomes For Answer to this I must tell you I would you had considered this before you had done it But now seeing God of his mercy hath reconciled them againe it may be the wisedome of you and your fellowes to depart unto Rome that Gods true Religion may be set up here in England without Popish Injunctions that so the last errour be not worse than the first for you say It is better that one perish than Vnity therefore in my judgement it is better that they should runne the hazard who have occasioned the strife Further you plead for your selfe and for hundreds of your brethren that you have borne the brunt
of the times and yet you doe professe that you will submit to what is established by Law because you hope it will be blessed and glorious I tell you you are even like Isachers Asse and so are the rest of your fellowes even willing to stoope downe between two burdens because ease is good for the Law indeede makes every thing seeme glorious but for any brunt that you have borne in these last times I thinke it hath not over-loaded you for I have not heard that you have beene at two pence cost to maintaine the Lords people in prison and therefore you are very unlike to Obadiah for instead of hiding of the Lords people you cry out upon the Parliament to have them hunted and this is a great brunt indeed if it be well considered and it is doubt it will cost you deare by that time you have paid your reckoning except God give you repentance But you further expresse that you would not set up true Churches against a true Church I answer neither would these Independant men I hope for those things which God teacheth his servants to doe be not against the truth but for the truth neither can they be any cause of Divisions or heart-burnings betweene either Ministers or People And thus you may see and behold that your seventh Answer to their third Reason that you have now left alone is a Noune Adjective in respect of proving any thing that you brought it for YOu say their fourth Reason is that if the Ministers and Churches be not tolerated they are afraid that in time they shall draw most of the good people out of the Land after them And for answer to this you say you suppose they rather hope than feare it and that say you plainely sheweth they have a good conceit of themselves and of their owne way For answer to you I say that this your Answer is but a Supposition neither do I know whether it be their Reason for methinks it sounds somewhat like Nonsense but your Supposition will not prove them to have a good conceit of themselves neither of any way of their owne for it is the way of the Lord Iesus Christ that they plead for Secondly you say you feare too but not as they doe but your feare is least toleration should draw away many good people I pray you trouble not your selfe too much for if there be no toleration the good people will flye from you and stand a farre off and waite for the Reformation which you have all this while promised But now at last you seeme to make a doubt of any Reformation at all when you say If the Ceremontes and Liturgie stand in full force which presupposeth that you conceive they will stand still but no doubt but if they be setled by Law they will seeme glorious to you although they are in themselves Romish Traditions Further you adde if these stand in force and Churches tolerated they will make brave worke in a short time I answer you are so fearefull least the Lords people should enter into the citie of promise that it is very like you never intend to enter in your selfe and that makes you gather up your hopes in the midst of all your feares setting a worke your confidence that God will preserve many judicious and advised Christians from your way and therefore you counsell them to whom you speake to let them be well shipped and a Reformation in Government and Ministers and then you say your feare will be over Truely methinkes you patch your matter together very disorderly for you have many times said that upon a Reformation they would communicate with you But now you would have them well shipt which I thinke is the Reformation which you desire as may appeare by the confused speech which you make afterwards for you say When there is a Reformation amongst you in Government and Ministers that feare is over with you and your Reason is because when that which first bred these men * is taken away which say you was the violent pressing of Ceremonies and the casting out of good Ministers and many notorious persons being suffered in the Church of England without all censures shall be removed many say you will not be bred and others will be satisfied and some godly painefull Ministers of the Church of England would out-preach them and out-live them To this I answer you seemed in the beginning of your Answer to make them proud persons or conceited of themselves But now methinkes I heare you boast very much of your selfe and others of your Church But I thinke it may be very true for you cannot chuse but out-preach them if you preach them out of the Kingdome And it is very like you may out-live them also if you can but banish them into some hard country or else get them into some stinking prison as you and the rest of your Fathers house have done very lately But further you adde that you and your fellowes will compare with them for all excellencies and abilities Me thinkes it had beene more credit for you to have given your neighbours leave to speake But now you have advanced your selfe you labour to cast them downe for you say you knew many of them long before they fell to this way but you have not seene any of them better nor more profitable for you say whilst they were in the Church of England they preached often and now seldome I Answer it is very like they dare not tell such as you when they preach that cry out to the Parliament to disturbe their meetings Further you say they goe looser in their apparell and haire I answer I know some indeede that have beene constrained to change their apparell for feare of persecution and it may be the haire you were offended at might be some Perriwâ—gge which some of them have beene constrained through feare to put on to blinde the eyes of the Bishops Blood-hounds when they have come to take them Further you exclaime against them that they take lesse care for publike things that concerne the glory of God and the salvation of mens soules I answer if their care be so little you may wonder what makes them to take this paines and care to travell out of a farre countrey to sue to the Parliament by humble petition for freedome of conscience and liberty for Gods publike worship which are things most concerning the glory of God and the salvation of mens soules Further you accuse them that their spirits are growne narrow like their Churches and that they grow strange reserved and subtill further you say in a word they minde little else but the propagation of their Independant way For answer whereof I say to you that it is no marvell though their spirits grow narrow towards such an Adveâ—sarie as your selfe and great cause they have to be strange towards you and reserved and subtill also But whereas you say their Churches be narrow
I say they are even like the way to â—eâ—vâ—n or the gate that leadeth unto life which is so narrow that such as you can hardly enter in thereat But if their greatest care be as you say to set up the Independant way * which is the way of God This still crosseth your former slander of them that they little minde the publike good and salvation of mens soules But that this is true namely that they minde little else but the propagation of their Independant way you bring the Protestation Protested to witnesse which Testimony maketh them peaceable men because they desire to meddle with no mans businesse but their owne And if they minde little else but to set up the Independant way then it will also crosse your following speech which you say you speak from your conscience and experience that never any of them had so large a spirit for good after they fell into that way nor tookesuch care you say for the propagation of the Gospell and preaching the Word to men without I tell you indeede if they did not take care to preach the Word to men without they would never come to preach amongst you much lesse would they then sue for libertie so to doe as the Welsh Ministers have done if they had not a desire to informe the ignorant in those truths that God hath revealed to them And therefore you may see in your accusations against them you are proved a very slanderer and have taken upon you the office of Sathan the old accuser of the Brethren But you conceive God never honoured them so much afterward But seeing it is but your conception it matters not for if they were active for God and did famously and worthily before they entred into the way of God I am sure they could not but be more active afterwards for when a man is in a Journey especially if he know or conceive himselfe to be out of the way he goeth on heavily till he meeteth with some directer either to informe him that he is in the right way or to direct him how he shall get into it and being setled in his right way hee goeth on more cheerefully and actively than hee could doe in the time of his doubting even so it must needs be with these men as I said before Againe you say that the men that hold those principles of Separation God did never honour much I answer it seemes you thinke Gods thoughts are as your thoughts and because you seeke for the praise of men and have it and a few men honour them and because Christs flocke is a little flocke therefore you imagine they are not honoured of God which is very carnall reasoning â— But as you have slandered the men all this while so now you here slander their way and principles which way is the way of God and whose principles are Gods truthes yet you say there is such a malignitie cleaves to it even as doth to the Episcopacie This is a very great slander to compare Godswayes to the wayes of Sathan in saying there is such a malignity cleaving to it which alters mens spirits and makes their hearts worse and yet you here confesse that many of them continue good in the maine Thus much for your Fourth Reason YOu say their fifth Reason is That this is no other but envy in the Ministers that makes them against Toleration because they feare their people will desert from them and come to us being so pure in Ordinances and Churches and thus you say the Protestation Protested speakes Your answer to this Reason is 1. That it is not out of envie but you hold their practise sinfull and unwarrantable to separate from your Churches and to erect such Congregations and therefore you say you speake against it and that you here promise to make good in a following Discourse For answer to this I must tell you that it is not your denying it to be out of Envie that will cleare you for there is nothing appeares more plainer than that envie against the truth and the Professors thereof was the cause of your writing against Toleration And that it is through feare your people will desert is plaine by your owne confession in your Fourth Reason where you say that if the Liturgie and Ceremonies stand in force and Toleration be granted they will make brave worke in a short time and yet you hope some judicious Christians as you say will be kept from their way But in that you here say you hold the practise sinfull and unwarrantable You have made that part of your judgement knowne already before but your judgement was grounded upon no true Principle and therefore it hath beene already proved to be emoneous And whereas you say you will make it good to be sinfull in a following Discourse I answer If you can but make men beleeve this you will worke a wonder But I know it is impossible for you to make good your promise and therefore I cannot expect performance Now to cleare your selfe 2. You say it cannot be counted envie in Ministers to be unwilling to have their flocks and people fall from them I answer By so saying you rather confirme their Reason than remove it namely that it was your feare of the deâ—erting of your people But for you to insinuate that the people that be called out of a way of sinne and brought into the way of grace and liberty be stolâ—â—â— away and tempted away by strangers as you would make it concluding that it is as tolerable for children to forsake their parents renouncing the 〈◊〉 that bare them and the â—â—ppâ—s that gave them sucke throwing dirt in the face of father and mother as it is for a man to forsake Idolatrous worship this is an unjust comparison and crosseth the whole tenor of the Scripture Now you would make this your owne case for you allude to your spirituall children who say you are the fruit of your labours I pray you how can you count the Parish of St. Elens your spirituall children seeing you are there but an hireling and as you have not begotten them to the Faith so you have not taken the charge of them to watch over them as a Spirituall Father and you will onely preach to them so long as any will pay you wages but no longer how then have you converted them to God from what have you converted them or what have you converted them too have you turned them from serving dumbe Idols to serve the living God I have heard of no great change of them nor of any other where you have preached you found them in the Church of England and you found them Christians in your owne judgement and you know they were baptized when you came to them and in the same Church where you found them there you leave them I pray you how have you begotten them to God you found them under a false power submitting to a false worship and
you justifie them as men begotten to God and you justifie their standing there Thus doe you sow pillowes of flatteries under their elbowes But you neede not to feare any mans comming to steale your Disciples away by night as the Jewes gave out falsely of Christs naturall body for that was but a lie therefore let no man presume to lie by their example But you say therefore you ought to watch against us and ought not to sleepe least they should be stolne * away I answer so did the Jewes watch the naturall body of Christ and yet he by his power raised himselfe and also departed from them even so by the same power will he raise from the death of sinne many that are amongst you and will cause them to separate themselves from your false worshipping and from you that are false worshippers and he will tell them where he feedeth his sheepe and causeth them to lie downe at noone * Neither can you cleare your selfe by saying you â—iâ—ty them and love them and would not have such a sword as a tolerátion put into their hands as you are pleased to say to hurt them though some amongst them say you might perhaps use it better I pray you feare not this which you here call an error on the right hand but rather feare your Church if as you say your Liturgie and Ceremonies stand still in force which you say were the causes that bred the Separates * I tell you if the sa ne cause remaine you may justly feare it will take the same effect you have also as great cause to feare the prophanenesse and Atheisme which is seated in the hearts of most of your people but onely that you blesse your selfe in hope that all ignorant and scandalous persons shall be driven out But I pray you tell me whither doe you intend to drive them if you leave them anywhere in the Land they will be still of your Church except you will make you a new Church But if you should drive them out of the Land you would leave many places of the Land uninhabited for the generalitie of the people in most parts be ignorant and prophane and thus you may see your selfe in a great streight and therfore you have great cause to feare Further you say the Author would intimate that the honest soules are with them and would be for their way but as for those that are against their way and Toleration they are not such honest soules If this Author be the Protestation Protested you have wrested his words for he hath not said they are not such honest soules neither hath he entred into judgement against any But further you say you would have them know that the honest soules are not onely with them for in the Church of England say you there ever have beene and are honest Ministers and people that have rejected our way and any that fell to it nay the greatest Nonconformists and most able in that way you say have written the most against our way and laboured upon all occasions to preserve the people from falling to us For answer whereof I must tell you that the Ministers and people were never the honester for ' rejecting of that way which hath beene proved to be the way of God though they were the greatest Nonconformists in the world for it is not our way properly but the gift of the Father which he hath given us to walke in and surely it is no signe of honesty to commend the Saints in their infirmities or to condemne them in their workes of pietie I say it is no signe of an honest soule to speak evill of such a holy way I tell you I take Hugh Latimer to be an honest soule though he have declared both by word and writing against such as you and affirmed that a lay man fearing God is much more fit to understand the holy Scripture then a proud and arrogant Priest yea then the Bishop himselfe be hee never so great and glistering in all his pontificalls and such honest soules though they are not of the Clergie but of those whom you call the Layetie are the fittest men on the earth to make Churches and to chuse their owne Ministers as I said before though they be Trades-men and such as these have dependancie upon Christ alone whose way is properly the sincere way of God And as for any that have writ against this way or against those who walke uprightly in it it will not make much for their account for that part of their worke shall burne as well as yours though they may be saved and as for these Authors which here you bring which have beene so carefull as you say to keepe the people from falling into that way I have reade some of their bookes and found the most of them prophesie sad things against he Church of England except she repent THeir sixth Reason you say is that they are good men and men of great gifts and therefore they should be tolerated to have such Churches it is pitty they should leave the Land and wee loose their prayers Indeede Mr. Edwards this may be some other mans Reason on their behalfe but I hardly beleeve that they lived so farre from good neighbours that they must thus set forth their owne praise But for answer to this Reason in the first place you say the better men they be and the more able the worse to set up separated Churches To this I answer that I ever conceived by the Scripture that those that Christ ordained to plant his Churches were good men as it was said of Barnabas that he was a good man * and the very like was said of Stephen * and therefore me thinks you are shreudly mistaken But further you say they will the more indanger the peace of the Kingdome and make the Schismes greater I answer If it be good and able men that indanger the peace of the Kingdome you may doe well to perswade the Parliament to keepe still in your Church all the dumb and drunken Priests for they are bad enough and unable to doe good and yet of my knowledge they are very able to disturbe the peace and to breed strife and to bring Gods judgements upon the Land which is able to make a greater Schisme than you are a ware of Secondly you say for their prayers you have the benefit of them as well when they are absent as present and some of them have saâ— say you they prayed more for England when out of it than in it Indeede if they did so they did well for that was their duty but I suppose you for your particular had little benefit of those prayers and that because God hath hardened your heart even against them and all good men Thirdly For these their prayers you have rewarded them with an accusation namely that they left the Kingdome when it was in greatest danger and in most neede of helpe and provided for
the diffierence betweene these Fathers * Moreover you seeme to inferre that because Siprian whom you confesse erred in the point of rebaptizing would not condemne them who were of a contrary opinion that therefore men may be tolerated in their differences of opinions But here you have brought an erring Father by your owne confession to perswade us to keepe communion with those that are contrary minded but the Apostle exhorteth us to labour to be of one minde that we may walke by one rule but if any be otherwise minded we ought to waite till God reveile further and not to force him to be of our minde till he hath faith in himselfe grounded upon the Word of God But that ground which you have that men should be tolerated in their differences of opinions is built upon the sayings of this Father Ciprian But presently you come with your provisall which hath quite altered the Case your provisall is they may be tolerated so long as they keepe communion with the Church and submit to the Discipline and orders and be peaceable and not speake against what is established by common consent nor practise to the scandall and contempt of the Magistrate and Church I answer this is but even a crossing of your owne speech againe for this constraining of men to yeeld to whatsoever is established by common consent is but a forcing of men to change their minds which you said before was the cause of Schismes and strifes and though you approve not of it in others yet it seemes you could freely practise it your selfe as may plainely appeare by what you speake hereafter which is the very same thing which you have often spoke already that is If a few men halfe a dozen or halfe a score refuse communion with your Church and vent opinions every where to the disturbing of the Kingdome and drawing disciples after them though they were Ministers of gold and had the tongues of men and Angels they should not be tolerated Now you have strucke up the stroke but it will not serve your turne for this your vaine insinuation that they disturbe the Kingdome and draw Disciples after them haâ—h beene many a time disproved already because it hath beene oftentimes repeated by you to fill up your matter nay your owne words have disproved your selfe where you say they will not receive them into fellowship except they be of their mindes * But further you say you would have us to reade Calvin upon that subject in his last Epistle to Felerius The matter you say is this that if He would not be reduced into order the Ministers should tell him that he is not to be accounted as a brother because he disturbed the common discipline What the Disciscipline was that he disturbed I cannot tell but you say it was a Discipline that was common which makes it appeare to mee that it was like your Booke-worship or your Common Prayer-booke which is common as farre as the Pope hath any preheminence or jurisdiction and that you confesse this Common Discipline was not the Discipline of God neither a Discipline that you approve of appeares by your owne words That you judge it not of God appeares here in your following words where you grant this to be the authority of men and that it is not to be sought after it c. and you know the things that they decreed was that he that would not submit to the Synod must be put out of his place and you say that you would not have any cast out of the Ministery or Church because it breedeth Schismes * and by this it appeares that you allow not of this manner of Discipline and by this one may also plainely see that you are made all of contradictions as it may plainely appeare in the very next words following where you conclude that the authority of men is not to be sought when the Spirit of God pronounceth of such c. and here you quote the 1 Cor. 11. 19. where you would make Paul an author of casting men out of their places because they would not yeeld to the Synod I pray you hath Paul in this Chapter discoursed of any such thing was not the controversie here about long haire about which Paul saith the Church hath no such custome of contention and doth not Paul himselfe put the thing to be judged by the Church in the thirteenth verse where he saith Iudge in your selves Is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered and further in the 14th verse Doth not nature it selfe teach us that if a man have long haire it is a shame unto him and was not this Doctrine grounded in the Law and Prophets and confirmed and established by God long before the Apostles time yes surely it was and therefore it will not serve your turne to prove that Synods may decree Customes for the Church of God but it will serve your turne to prove what you desire that is a dependancie betweene Rome and England and that the Bishops of Rome and England by their Synods should make all their shavelings to crouch and submit and bow to their injunctions for your owne practises prove it by your very submitting be it never so contrary to the Law of God and of Nature it selfe if it be but confirmed by a Synod and therefore it appeares that it is your malignity of spirit which causeth you to write as you doe But you say you doe it from a zeale But I tell you it is a zeale against Gods glory and the good of his Church and against the preservation of puritie of Doctrine and holinesse of life even at the best like unto the zeale which Paul had before hee knew Christ when he went with Letters from the high Priest to peâ—secute the Church of God and when he was their Pursevant to enter into houses and to hale men and women to prison * if Paul should have said for himselfe as you would now pleade for your selfe that peace could not stand with toleration and therefore it was meete to disturbe their meetings it would not have served his turne for if God had not stricken him downe in the way he should never have seene the Lord Jesus but to his confusion though he was a man every way as well informed as your selfe Yea â—e might have pleaded as well as you that he did it not out of passion but that he had thoughts of the Church way before for you may know that Paul was a member of the Church of the Jewes which was erected by God and was zealous for the Law and mighty in knowledge being brought up at the feete of Gamaliel * and also a free borne Roman * and yet he neither knew Christ * nor what Christ would have him to doe * but hee thought other wayes of himselfe or else he would not have persecuted the professors of the truth but that hee imagined there was evill in the
you so void of true piety towards that Honourable House or judge you that House so void of common Reason being as they are indeede the very Eyes of the whole land the Eares of the whole land and the Tongue of the whole land yea the hand and power of the whole land being so as I conceive in my simplicity would you have them I say to be blinde of one eye and to looke upon the Petitions and complaints of some of the people of the land and not upon all would you have them so partiall would you have them also deafe of one â—are that they should not hearken to the cries and petitions and complaints of all the Kings subjects one as well as another would you have them also so defective in their tongue that they should not be for the praise of them that doe well as well as for the punishment of evill doers nay seeing they are called Gods * would you have their hands so shortned that they should not once stretch them forth to support and helpe the poore afflicted members of Jesus Christ Then indeede you would have them very unlike unto Moses even as unlike as your selves are unto Aaron Would you have this House to exercise their power upon persons before they have made due triall of the cause by hearing witnesses speake on both sides truely Mr. Edwards if you would as it appeareth plaine it is your minde then I will submit to the judgement of both the Houses of Parliament whether you be not a man void of common Reason for he is a foole that judgeth a matter before he know it And you are not onely void of Reason your selfe but you would have the Parliament to be like you for if the Parliament should judge a man before they heare his cause they would be like the Court at Lambeth which were used to sit in the high Priests Hall judgeing matters without due triall Further you say you are perswaded that it will never be said of this Parliament that they opened a doore for Toleration For Answer to this I must tell you that I conceive they may receive a Petition and yet not open a doore for Toleration I meane for such a Toleration as you here speake of for setting up Churches against Churches for that is not the Toleration that we pleade for but your evill conclusion And therefore you may pray if you will that that doore may be kept shut And we will pray also that all doores may be kept shut that will let any evills into the Kingdome in processe of time least that any succeeding generations should have cause to write in their Chronicles of this Parliament as it was written of Naaman the Syrian that is as you say it will be said of them but they granted a Toleration Moreover we desire nothing at their hands that may cast a darke shadow upon their glorious light But that which we desire is liberty of conscience to practise Gods true worship in the land wherein we were borne which will be no blemish to any Christian Magistrate to grant nor for any Counsell of state to establish And therefore you should not have concluded this your Discourse against independancie and against Toleration before you had offered it to the triall before some lawfull Committee chosen by the Parliament to heare both you and them and then if you could have maintained your Churche of England which you plead for with your Synods and Counsells Ceremonies and Booke-worship Canons and Sensures Citations Degradations and Excommunications with your Absolutions to be founded upon the substance of that Worship and Discipline which you say Calvin affirmeth is expressed in the Scriptures then you might with the more shew of honesty have admoninished the Parliament to have cast out their Petitions but till then you may lay your hand upon your mouth and never for shame affirme that the granting of Toleration unto us to worship God without molestation will be setting up Churches against Churches Neither ought you to have concluded against them before you had proved their way of worship to be contrary to the word of God or not to have footing in his word as yours hath not for except you had done this you have small cause to rejoyce in your thoughts in respect of the accounts that you are to give about this coutraversie for your contraversie can be conceived at the best to be but the contraversie that Paul had when he went unto Damascus which was a Contraversie against Christ * though Christ in his rich grace pardoned him when hee had smitten him downe and driven him out of himselfe and made him to confesse that he knew not Christ in these words where hee saith LORD WHO ART THOV and further acknowledged that he knew not the will of Christ by asking him with these words WHAT WILT THOV HAVE ME TO DOE thus you may see though the controversie was against Christ yet Paul was reconciled to God the Father by Iesus Christ the Sonne and endued with the holy Ghost which made him a Minister of the New Testament which all his humane learning could not doe And Paul might have boasted that he was stirred up by the Spirit of God against the way of Christ as you boast that you are stirred up by Gods Spirit against the way of Separation But that would not have justified Paul much lesse shall it justifie you for Paul did that hee did out of a zeale to maintaine the Law of God But yours is to maintaine the Law of Sinne even the Law of Sathan Paul persecuted those that he did conceive to be evill but you persecute those that you acknowledge good men and such as have beene active and famous for God And therefore you have no neede to boast of the Spirits enabling you all along and that above your owne strength as you declare for it may plainely appeare unto all men of understanding that it was the very spirit of delusion And therefore you may justly expect Censures and Reproaches as you say you doe because your way in this action was not pleasing to God But for my part instead of censuring you I would rather reprove you and admonish you rather than reproach you and pray that God might turne you And if God would be pleased to give you that reward of your labour which hee gave unto Paul even to strike you downe and to make you to heare his voyce and learne to know him and what he would have you to doe then it would turne much to the praise of God and to the comfort of your poore soule if you be a chosen vessell unto him which is the thing you pretend you aime at and then you shall be sure to gaine truth and love and peace and holinesse in all your after discourses when you shall speake with a new tongue and expresse the language of Canaan And now Mr. Edwards for conclusion of the whole I doe here affirme that if
upon the sight of this Booke you shall conceive that I have either misconstrued your words or accused you without ground necessarily drawne from your owne speeches or that I have mistaken the sence of any Scripture that I have quoted in this Booke or that I have not answered you directly to the point by any oversight Then chuse you sixe men or more if you please and I will chuse as many and if you will we will agree upon a Moderator and trie it out in a faire discourse peradventure save you a labour from publishing your large Tractates which you say you intend to put out in Print against the whole way of Separation and if it can be made appeare that in any of these particulars I have missed it I will willingly submit But if you overcome me your conquest will not be great for I am a poore worme and unmeete to deale with you But if you doe give another onset before you accept of a parse seeing I have offered you conditions of peace the world will judge you an unreasonable man and you shall never have the day But if you will say your quarrell is only against those Ministers that justifie your Church and Ministry and worship and can prove that the Minsters of Holland and New England doe generally justifie the Church of England and the Ministery of the Church of England and the worship instituted by the Church of England I say if they thus far justifie you as I have here specified then will I freely acknowledge when I heare them speak it that I was mistaken concerning them yet the case in controversie stands still to be tried between you and me but I do otherwise conceive of them for the present because I am credibly informed that they doe generally and publikely renounce the power by which they were called to their office of Ministry in and by the Church of England some of them affirming that they have stood Ministers too long under such a false power others confessing here in publike that it was their sinne that they had not revealed so much to the people before they went away with many the like expressions which I can prove if wee come face to face which maketh it apeare to me for the present that though they preach in the Assemblies met together by publike authority yet they judge themselves to be Ministers sent of God to separate the precious from the vile and that though they have not an outward mediate calling seeing they have cast it off because it was false yet they have an inward immediate calling as all the Ministers of God had in former time which were able to unfould the Misteries of the Scripture though they had neither calling by man nor by the will of man but by the holy Ghost And I hope these men of whom I speake will never returne to serve God before the Idols nor preach for wages as Balaam did but still stand fast in the liberty wherein Christ hath set them Seeing they cave hast off the grievous yoke of Antichrist separating betweene the precious and the vile fitting men for the Lords building that so they may goe up to Ierusalem by troupes This is my charity towards them though I know them not by face and I thinke I may boldly say that none of them knowes me Esay 41. 21. Stand to your cause saith the Lord bring forth your strong reasons saith the King of Jacob Esay 5-8 Take counsell together yet it shall be brâ—ught to nought pronounce a Decree yet it shall not stand for GOD is with us FINIS * Deut. 32 â— 1 King â— 53. * Gen. 4 14. 15. 16. c Gen. 4. 3. d Mat. 24. 38. 39. 1 Pet. 3. 20. e Gen 7 1. f Ver. 21 22 23. g Gen. 12. 1. h Exo. 3. 7 8 9. 10. Chap. 6. 26. 27. i And 12 â—2 k Num 16. 12 13 14. l Ver. 21. 24 25 26. m Ver. 35. n Ver. 31 32 33. * Ver. 5. Deut. 5. 26. 27. * Deut. 28. 9. 10. Ezza 1. Hag. 1. 2 3. 4. 8. 12. 14. p Ier 51. 6. q Ier. 3. 12. Hos. 11 7. Christ made so great a difference betweene the world and the Church that hee would not pray for the world yet would die for the Church which was given him out of the world and without a Separation the Church can not be known from the world r Rev. 1. 3 s Rev. 18. 4. * Amos 7. 12. 13. * Gen. 10. 8 9. * Ecster 3. 8. 6 6. * Neh 6. â—â—â— 15. 19. Verse 13. 14 16. Compared with 1 Cor. 12. Matth. 1â— 15. 16. 17 Acts 15. 1. â—â— 1 Cor. 12. Act. 16. 1. 3. See the Answer to his second Reason against Independencie See Ezek. 43. 11. a Tit 3. 10. b Rev. 1. 20. Rev. 2. 20. c â— 2 Cor. 6. 14 15. 16. 17. d Rev. 14. 9 10 11. 12. e Chap. 18. 4. See the 3. 4 leafe of his Epistle Reason 1. Pag. 23. Pag. 23. * 1 Tim. 6. * For this see the Reply to his Answe to their third Reason for Toleration Pag. 29. * For this see his Book pag. 5 5. * Esay 4 2. 8. Pag. 30. liâ— 30. 31. b 1 Tim. 2. 1. 2. c Pro. 15. 8. * â—ph 4. 5. Pag. 31. lin. â—â— * Matth. 6. 5 * Ver. 7. 8. Matth. 6. 9. Ver. 10. Ver. 11. Ver. 12. Ver. 13. c Rom. 8. 15 d Ioh. 14. 26. * For this see the third part of his Answer to their second Reason against Toleration pag. 30. * 2 Tim. 3. 5. * For this see his fifâ— Reason against Toleration pag. 28. lin. 12. 13. Matth. 18. 15 16 17 18 19 20. Rev. 21. 27. and 22 14 15. * Pag. 34. Exod. 5. 17. * Pag. 34. * Gen. 45. 24. * Pro. 18. 19. * Gen. 50. 20. * 1 Ioh. 2. 19. * Ioh. 6. 66. 67. * I pray thee good Reader take notice that here I acknowledge an oveâ—sight in taking Mr. Edwards his eleventh Reason to be a second tenth Reason it was thâ—ough my neglect in not looking into his Errata * For thâ—t reade the Answer to his third Reason against Independancie * See the Reply tothe sixth part of his Answer to this their following Reasou Rev. 13. Whence the Church of England is derived Whence the Church of Rome is derived What the Image of the first beast is * In the Second Part of his second Reason against toleration pag. 24. In his sixth Reason against toleration pag. 29. and the third part of his Answer to their second Reason for toleration * Pag. 43. lin. 16 17. Rev. 7. Rev. 12. 11 * Pag. 45. * Rev. 12. 14 * Verse 16. * Pag. 46. li. â—â— Pag. 48. lin. 14. Pag. 48. lin. 20. * What it is that bred the Separates * Pag. 49. â— 9. 10. * Pag. 50. lin 23. 〈◊〉 lin. 29. * Cant. 1. 7. * Pag. 48. l. 23 24. * Acts â—â—â— 24. * Acts 6. 5. â— 10. * Ioh. 9. 31. Exod. 9. 29. 33. Pag 52. * When Stephen Gardiner harped upon unitie unitie yea Sir said Latimer but in Veritie not in Popery better is a Diversitiâ— â—â—â—â—â—â— Vnitie in Popery * Rev. 21. 27. Pag. 52. * Pag. 49. lin. 31. â— * Pag. 52. lin. 33. 34. * For this see his eigth Reason against Toleration pag. 32. lin. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. * Pag. 26. * Acts 8. 3. * Act. 22. 3â— * Ver. 2â— * Ver. 8. * Ver. 10. 1 Cor. 11. 1. â— Thes. 2. 7. â—or this see Reasons against Independancie pag. 5. lin. 12. â—â— * 1 Cor. 11. 23. * For this see his Book pag. 55. * Psal. 8â— 1. 6. * Acts 9. 4. 5.