same minde I know not nay I have observed the spirits of some Congregational-Ministers carried with more eagernesse against the Classical-brethren then è converso and I am sure if there be any blame among the Ministers it is charged most upon the Congregational-men whether justly or no it concernes you to cleare your selves Besides at this time the Civill power most smiles upon you and now it is a good time to shew you seeke the peace and flourishing of all Churches by joyning with your fellow-brethren and not to be content though your Interest be safe unlesse the whole may have comfort as well as your selves for you cannot but judge that there are more true visible Churches then those which are called Independent Churches and that there be others that are true Ministers besides the Independent Ministers why then should not the comfort of these Churches and Ministers be sought which cannot be unlesse your selves be pleased to declare against these errours and schismes of the times and fall in with these Ministers to carry on the worke of Christ together Let mee I beseech you present to your view a few things to be considered First the Classical men have bid very faire for peace and agreement with you heare their words Lond. in Vind. p. 120. 121. We doe here manifest our willingnesse te accommodate with you according to the word in a way of union and such of us as are Ministers to preach up and to practise a mutuall forbearance and toleration in all things that may consist with the sundamentals of Religion what need then any other Toleration with the power of godlinesse and with that peace which Christ hath established in his Church but to make ruptures in the body of Christ and to divide Church from Church c. there is no warrant for this out of the word The page before this they offer as much as this and speake so Christianly and ingenuously that it must needs move any Christian heart that loves the peace and prosperity of the Churches to meet them halfe way and not suffer any differences more to appeare As for that exception they make the ruptures of Churches I thinke it to be a very just exception that golden rule hath place here ut tibi sic aliis would any of us be content to have other Ministers take from us the best of our people that have chosen us before and owned us for their officers say what you please you are men and I know it would be a strong temptation when as for want of these also their hands are weakned in the carrying on of Reformation in their Churches If you take away the best who are the joy of a Minister take away the worst also If you live neare a place where there is no Minister and take in such Christians to you as the place affords and returne them when the place is furnished or if there be a Minister and but few Christians so that he cannot give the Lords Supper with comfort if he and his people will joyne with you they may none oppose this but when a godly Minister hath visible Saints sufficient in his Parish to have these taken from him is such a thing which I would not have offered to me therefore I would not offer the same to another I know where the pinch lyes on the Ministers part Our maintenance ariseth from the members c. but for this the State hath provided an answer and certainly it is a great mercy reforme you in the place where you live take none but Scriputre-visible-Saints to the Sacraments catechize and doe what you can to reforme the rest the State hath provided for your maintenance none shall keepe it from you as well as the word gives it you Gal. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teacheth in all good things Christ sent Paul not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1 Cor. 1.17 preaching is the spending worke and the chiefe of this all the Parish are partakers I am ready to dispense the Seales to all visible Saints therefore I know no scruple why I should not receive from all since all receive from me O but your members will not be content with this I know not but your members may finde God in a godly reformed Classicall Church we see the differences are very small but suppose the worst let then your members remove into the Parishes where you live and this is no offence to any if they say It will something hinder their estate Mr. Burroughs wil tel them then they love their bodies better then their soules Expos Hos c. 2. v. 1.2 p. 225. if they looke upon things very much concerning their soul and will not buy them with some abatement of their profit could this have beene once enjoyed New England sufferers had not been there now Though Parishes are not Churches yet Ministers care must be bounded some where I presume you are willing to close so that you may not sin I beseech you first what sinne is it to let a godly Classicall man enjoy his owne members Secondly What sinne is it to admit a visible Saint and member of a Classical Church to communion with you Thirdly what sinne is it to declare against the errours and schismes of the times you see it is the thoughts of the New England Divines that through our too much connivence at these this inundation of errours is like to destroy all If these three be but yeelded I beleeve you may live and enjoy your liberty of conscience and no man will trouble you 2. A second consideration is this you see those who call for agreement they are no babes they are men holy learned excellently gifted and the arguments they give for their Classical forme of government are not slight but such as deserve strong heads to answer it may be my shallownesse but truly I cannot yet see some things they plead for to be clearly answered as their arguments for the Catholick-Church-visible their arguments for their Presbyterial Church from the Church of Jerusalem Corinth c. yet I have read the answers with a kinde of prejudice against the Classical way being before engaged in the Congregational-way and usually then men are apt to make a little serve the turne But I cannot yet be satisfied and that such a Church as is in this small village where I live should have equall power with the Church of Corinth and be exempted from all other power though which God forbid we should walke scandalously is a peece of Divinity that I cannot yet beleeve There seemes to be something in that which learned Mr. Hudson hinteth from 1 Cor. 14.34 Let your women keepe silence in the Churches Here are Churches in Corinth he doth not say Let women but Let your women that indeed which is a rule for the Churches of Corinth is a rule for all Churches those Congregations are called Churches yet one combined Church
of Corinth There are other points besides which I mention not but certainly the controversie is not so clear as the controversie against Papists Socinians c. therefore I should thinke that we had need close the more with these men A third consideration is this unto me it is something I know not how it takes with others the strange things that God in his Providence hath suffered to fall out in Congregationall Churches I meane for Divisions especially and errours that charge cannot bee denied of many Congregationall Members what errours they have drunke in and for Divisions they are not secret things but such as the whole Nation knows insomuch that I have heard a serious Congregationall Minister and an able man say when he hath heard what crackes and rendings there have been in Congregationall Churches he thought seriously whether it were the way of God or no how many Congregationall Churches may be reckoned where these have been and if Ministers doe not let their Members take their owne course even what they will and drinke in what errours they will it is hard to keep a Church from rending Ius Divi. p. 114 that learned Book England gives strong proofe of this It is a very unhappy Story that Mr. Edwards relates of the Church at Arnheim if it be true I finde it quoted by the London Ministers where that Act was done in New England that Mr. Cawdrey mentions in his Epistle to the dissenting Brethren I cannot imagine but that is also strange if true I suppose he relates as it was related to him I know indeed where there is a sad example of this kinde there also This use I make of these things that we had need take another review of Congregationall principles in respect of that power which is given to the Fraternity and in the meane time to be very tender towards the Classicall Brethren and study agreement with them The fourth The Classicall men are opposed in reforming their Churches as well as the Congregationall men now for these to be opposed not only by the prophane part whom they keep off from the Lords Snpper but to be opposed also by the Congregationall men that they prove a griefe to them this is a hard chapter certainly we had need more close with them and help to comfort them rather then grieve them in their worke they are scorned by the profane party let not us scorne them 5 These Nurseries of errours I meane the Separatists who cast off Orthodox Officers are as bad enemies to the Congregationall Churches as they are to the Classicall nay worser your Members will quickly drinke in their poyson yea and goe away from you to them Pag. 119. as experience hath testified therefore it concernes you to joyne with the Classicall men against them but by one passage I meet with in the London Vindication it seems some Congregationall men doe not thinke so for they in their complaint to you thus speake Are there not some of you that chuse rather to joyne with Anabaptists and Episcopall men then with us and that will give letters dimissory to your Members to depart from you to the Churches of the Anabaptists and at the same time deny them to such as desire them for to joyne with Churches of our Communion we charge not these things upon you all but upon some whose names we forbeare to mention this is very strange but this confirmes what I said before that the cause of our dis-union is not altogether in the Classicall men 6 I pray consider what a fine Game the Devill hath played by this opposition between us hath he not turned our Reformation into a deformation Hath he not caused the building of the Temple to cease Doe not all things that concerne the Reformation of the Church stand at a stay What doe we now indeed those who are for Congregationall Government have the opportunity to gather Churches as they call it but what becomes of the whole It was told me when I was in Spaine which was the winter before Naseby Fight that divers that were in religious Orders that lived there were got into England Certainly Jesuits or Devils have been here to hold the Congregationall and Classicall Brethren at such a distance that while they have been contending about Government we are in danger of loosing Ordinances Truths Government and be swallowed up with a deluge of Errors Schismes and Heresies Divide impera that hath been Satans project 7 I beseech you consider whether we lye not open to Gods stroke is there not matter of provocation given him by reason of these Divisions that his worke stands at a stay Errours Schismes Heresies and decay of godlinesse that follows upon these that he should take away the Liberties he hath given us and make us feele a heavie yoke againe Surely these things will not be long borne Mr. Caryll hath a sad speech Expos on Job c. 5. ver 9. God hath begun to doe so many marvells amongst us that I verily beleeve the worke he is about will end in a marvell too and we in the close shall be made either a wonder of Mercy or a wonder of Judgement to all the Nations round about We are made indeed a wonder in regard of the strange Opinions Heresies Divisions they wonder at us in New England but till God sets up his Kingdome in our hearts Rom. 14.17 consisting in righteousnesse peace and joyes of the Holy Ghost and sets up his Kingdome in the Nation riding in triumph in his Ordinances converting of soules and battering down the prophanenesse of our hearts scattering our Errors and Schismes we shall not be a wonder of mercy to other Nations but if God shall be pleased to let our hearts feele his inward Kingdome and our eyes see his externall visible Kingdome after that manner exalted then Lord some of us care not how soone we fall asleep FINIS
Separation Examined OR A TREATISE VVherein the grounds for Separation from the Ministry and Churches of England are weighed and found too light The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable but likewise so hurtful to the Churches that Church-Reformation cannot with any comfort go forward so long as such Separation is Tolerated Also an humble request presented to the Congregational Divines that since the differences between them and the Classical-Divines are very small they would please to strike in with the Classical-Divines in carrying on the worke of Reformation before the Inundation of these corrupt Opinions have destroyed both Ordinances and Religion By Gi. Firmin Minister to the Church in Shalford in Essex 1 Cor. 1.10 Now I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that yee all speake the same thing and that there be no Schismes among you Judicabit autem eosqui schismata operantur qui sunt immanes non habentes Dei dilectionem suamque utilitatem potius considerantes quà m unitatem Ecclesiae propter modicas quaslibet causas magnum gloriosum corpus Christi conscindunt dividunt c. Irenae l. 4. c. 62. Cavenda sunt autem fratres dilectissimi non solum quae sunt aperta manifesta sed astutae fraudis subtilitate fallentia c. haeteses invenit schismata quibus subverteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet unitatem Cypr. de unit Eccles LONDON Printed by R. I. for Stephen Bowtell at the Bible in Popes-head-Alley 1652. The Contents THere are true visible Churches in England pag. 1 There is a true Gospel-Ministry in England pag. 4. The grounds of Separation must be either in the Ministry Worship Congregation or Place of meeting p. 12 The Ordination of the Ministers by Bishops can be no ground for Separation p. 22 There can be no ground in the Worship being singing of Psalms is here touched p. 32 There can be no ground in the Congregation though many wicked persons be there Nor in the place of meeting p. 39 The Proposals of the Separatists what they would have are set downe and answers returned as 1 They would have Ministers lay downe their former Call and joyne with them then they it may be will elect them and ordaine them where this question is handled p. 46 Quest Whether election only gives the essentials to a Minister and Ordination be but an Adjunct p. 50 Whether the People have power to Ordaine p. 70 Whether the Fraternity be the first subject of the power of the Keys briefly touched p. 73 2 They will have an explicite Covenant which they call the forme of a Church p. 81 3 No Church-Members but visible Saints p. 82 4 Power in Admissions and Excommunications p. 83 5 Liberty to Prophesie p. 84 6 Liberty of Conscience p. 88 How it appeares that Church-reformation cannot with comfort proceed so long as the Separation is Tolerated p. 91 The Separatists are no such-friends to the Civill Power as is pretended p. 94 The Questions propounded to the Separatists in reference to their Separation p. 97 The agreements and differences with and between the Classicall and Congregationall Divines are reviewed their agreements found to be many their differences very few p. 100 Whence an humble request is presented to the Congregationall Divines speedily to joyne with the Classicall Divines backed with seven reasons p. 108 To the Reverend the Ministers of London the Authors of the Vindication of the Presbyteriall Government and Ministry c. Printed 1650. Fathers and Brethren THe goodnesse of God manifested of old to England in causing the Sun of his Gospel to rise early upon this Nation and to finde such entertainment in the hearts of the Supreame Power that it was the first Nation that ever received the Gospell with the countenance of publick Authority having the first Christian King that ever was is knowne to the whole Christian world his goodnesse in these latter dayes since he tooke from our necks the Anti-christian yoke hath been also wonderfull honouring the Ministers of his Gospel with such Holinesse Learning Ministeriall abilities and successe in their labour in converting many and setting up the power of godlinesse in this Nation that he hath not honoured any Nation more nay without pride it may be spoken his Free Grace hath not honoured any Nation so much in these respects as this English Nation but now in our dayes the Ministry which God hath thus honoured is as much dishonoured and that by such who cannot but acknowledge their owne mouthes have spoken it that what Spirituall good they have received it was wrought by the Ministry and now we finde scorning deriding separating from the Ministry and many not so much as stepping over their thresholds to heare them who were the first instruments of their good if they have any as some we hope have and yet the Ministers are the same they were before yea some repenting that ever they bestowed so much paines and time to follow the Minister as one that lives but foure or five miles from Dedham hath said He repented that he followed that eminent Servant of God Mr. Rogers so much to heare his preaching While I observed these things and considered into what a sad condition we are fallen and read over your Vindication in which I saw a holy meeke and true Christian spirit breathing calling upon the Congregationall men to joyne with you certainly I thought that Booke deserved a courteous Christian answer from the ablest of our Congregationall men what they have done towards it I know not being little acquainted with affaires abroad being locked up in much sadnesse of spirit at home but I thought with my selfe that being I was numbred among the Independents though I am the weakest and most worthy the holy Lord should turne me out of his holy Work laying other things together which I have mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader I resolved to improve the little Talent the Lord had given me in examining the grounds of these practices and to stand up in the defence of such Ministers who I saw were deare to Christ and whom in holinesse learning and abilities the Lord had honoured farre before my selfe And now my Fathers the quarrell is not only with you because you are Presbyteriall Ministers the quarrell is with the whole Ministry for this spirit hath infected even some in New England and I beleeve will cause more troubles there in those Churches then ever the Bishops did though they threatned them much What are the practices of some and what are the feares of the worthy Ministers there I understand by Letters I doe not I dare not censure the Congregationall Churches here some of the Ministers I know to be holy and reverent I wish I had such grace many Members no doubt are really godly but had I not lived in New England and seene the Churches there by what I heare of divers and what I know by some Churches here
I should have been convinced that Independent as it is here called Government was never of Christs institution I have observed few people that come once to stand up for Independency but they grow very tender as they call it towards corrupt Opinions if not leavened with them themselves not allowing a Minister to speake against them yea and those whom I tooke to be the soberest and best grounded Christians have not stuck to Censure New England sharply for being too strict against those which they call Non-fundamentall Errors and I wish that some Ministers were not sicke of that policie to plead for Toleration of such Opinions esteeming it a peice of true Christian wisdome to be silent and not to meddle but comply with all Opinionists especially if they conceive them to be not in the fundamentals which are but a few Hierome thought it was Augustines honour Aug. Epist 25. that he so strongly opposed the Heresies of his time that all the Hereticks hated him to oppose by Argument is good yea and to discountenance the contumacious is not amisse but it is now an honour for a man to be silent For your parts my Fathers you and the godly Presbyterians of England are esteemed the causes of all these troubles yea I observe by Letters which my selfe and others have received from the Divines of New England that some have informed them as if you were the causes of the second Warre when Duke Hamilton and Lord Goring c. arose Also that you are so adverse to the Congregationall Churches here that you had rather joyne with the Common Enemy and hazzard your owne Liberties then enjoy your Liberties with your Brethren the Congregationall men but you have I thinke sufficiently cleared your selves from these aspersions in your Vindication yea and so can the Congregationall men cleare you I beleeve there is one report that goes for truth and that amongst persons of note and upon that ground I perceive I meane some men here they much satisfie themselves in this scorne cast upon you viz. That the Assembly of Divines when things were likely to settle on the Presbyterian side should determine That Congregationall Ministers should not be allowed any publicke place to preach in nor should be allowed any publick maintenance This is certainly beleeved by men of note I wish the truth were cleared I am not ignorant what provocation it was to have your people taken from you c. but yet I can hardly beleeve the Assembly to be so hard to their Brethren Further but that I am too meane to move and know not whither my motion be good or no in your thoughts I could heartily wish you would please to declare Pag. 119 120 121. how farre you could yeeld to the Congregationall Brethren you have hinted some things in your Vindication which imply much but if it were thought meet to speake out a little more fully then should our New England Divines clearly understand where the greatest cause of this dis-union lyes against all false reports that are sent to them And now my reverend Fathers I beseech you accept of this testimony of the honour I owe you having ventured after many resolutions to the contrary fearing my weaknesse to dedicate this Treatise to you it being the greatest desire of my heart to see the Kingdome of Christ first exalted in my owne wretched heart and then to see Classicall and Congregationall men joyning together with one shoulder to set up his visible Kingdome in England opposing Errour and Schisme and Christ riding in Triumph upon his white Horse conquering soules by his poore Instruments that once it may be said of England The Lord blesse thee O habitation of Justice and mountaine of Holinesse Ier. 31.23 So prayeth he who is unworthy to be called your Fellow-labourer in the Lord Jan. 19. 1651. Giles Firmin TO THE READER Christian Reader I Shall briefly give you an account what moved me to undertake this taske 1. I observed it very common among Christians when we have beene speaking about some Minister godly eminent c. against whom no objection can be made but if he were a man of the Presbyterial judgement they would make sleight account of him Hee He is a Presbyterian and if you have said so Presbyterian is crime enough hence to separate from a Presbyterial Minister though never so able and godly they thinke it no offence at all this made me search what they had to say against these Presbyterial men whether their grounds for such contempt were solid as also for their separation 2. I received two Letters from New England from a worthy Divine one some longer time since the other but lately in which there were these passages In the first which was writ after the overthrow of Duke Hamilton he hath this passage We doe not know what to pray for in your behalfe God hath removed adversaries fought miraculously for you against the Scots and put the power of things into such hands as have beene most active for the godly party and yet your condition is as miserable as ever the Lord helpe for vaine is the helpe of man I much feare you that are the godly Ministers have beene too passive and not so zealous against Errours and Heresies as you ought and therefore it is just with the Lord to let in these inundations of hellish opinions upon you which damp all power of Religion wheresoever they become though I am not worthy to be reckoned among the godly Ministers yet my conscience doth not accuse me of this fault I am rather judged a man too severe In his other Letter which came at the end of this Summer he wrote thus It 's the wonderment of this side of the world that you that are godly and may agree yet will not Neither doth my conscience accuse me in this point I hope I shall cleare it by the ensuing Discourse 3. Among the many crimes charged upon the Independent Churches I have noted these two especially 1. That they are but a backe doore for Errours and Heresies 2. That they regard nothing but their owne interest so long as they have their liberty though there are Ministers as godly able and learned and many hundreds of true visible Churches in the Nation besides theirs yet they regard not them nor their comfort being therefore set downe by Mr. Edwards in his Catalogue of Independents I thought I would cleare my selfe of all these things and though I be but amongst the meanest and not worth the regarding yet to discharge my selfe and to have my spirit free when ever God shall visit us for these Divisions Errours Heresies c. for what can we expect but some rod if we continue in the frame we now are in I have made bold humbly to addresse my selfe to our Congregational Divines to be seech them to take those offers which the Presbyteriall brethren make for agreement that so we may strengthen one another against the common
adversaries that trouble our Reformation I thought to have taken occasion here to cleare my selfe from what Mr. Edwards had writ concerning me but the man being dead I rather let it alone for sin I thanke God he hath charged me with none I know if ever the Lord bring such an unworthy wretch as I am to heaven I shall not beare Mr. Edwards a grudge for what unkindnesse he hath offered to me here But whereas Mr. Edwards hath branded me for an Independent some of miserable Colchester have told me that I have altered my principles but I know no reason why the one should charge me to be an Independent nor the other for departing from my principles for I never declared any thing in publike but onely once which was concerning the matter and forme of a visible Church for the government of the Church never troubled me but how to have the people reformed and scandalous persons debarred from the seales of the Covenant and persons brought into a posture fit for Discipline but what is this to Independency Once also I expressed this that I conceived a Church organized and walking regularly might execute all the power of the Keyes within it self I never expressed any thing more there concerning Church-worke but did labour to keep alive the old truths which I found my heart had more need of then to preach about Church-government in such a Towne as that was But if you say though I did not expresse it openly yet I was an Independent in my judgement but how can men charge me with that whiâ—c neither in publike nor private they ever heard me expresse but then to deale plainly I shall set down what manner of Independent then I was and then you shall see how much I am altered In these points I did joyne with the Congregational-men First I thought none but visible Saints to be fit matter for a Church Secondly So the Belgick Churches I thought a promise from the people to subject themselves to Church-discipline was of very great concernment to carry on Discipline with strength and comfort as likewise to subject themselves to all other Ordinances as became Christians Thirdly though I did owne the Churches of England for true Churches yet because for want of Catechising and Discipline they were overgrowne with ignorance and prophanenesse I did desire the grosly ignorant and prophane to stay a while before I gave t heir children the seale of Baptisme that having got knowledge and conversation freed from scandall the Ordinance might be administred with more comfort Fourthly I thought that if Churches were now constituting the Officers should not receive any into Church-fellowship against the consent of the people giving sufficient proofe against them Fifthly I thought the Officers ought not excommunicate any person If the people did not consent to them not that a Church must be obstructed if two or three have a minde to be crosse Sixtly I thought a particular Church organized to be the first subject of the power of the Keyes and according as Mr. Cotton held it out but this I did not expresse publikely Seventhly I did somewhat question whether the Officers of one Church had power to excommunicate in another Church But in these points I was no Independent First I could not be clear that the people were the first subject of the power of the Keyes Secondly neither that the Fraternity had power to ordain formally Thirdly that a Minister should preach onely as a gifted broth er out of his owne place Fourthly I could not consent to have the godly people taken away from a godly Presbyterian into an Independent Church Fifthly I could not approve that Independent Churches should refuse to communicate with Presbyteriall Churches though there were good store of visible Saints for want of an explicite Covenant By this time I hope I shall be no ranke Independent But where is then my thanging of my principles let these men prove it for I am the same still onely since I read Mr. Hudson I doe somewhat waver about the first subject of the Keyes and this is all my change That my minde may be cleared against whom I write I observe Separatists are not all of a size some separate from Ministers Churches and get into their private houses owne no officers but please themselves with their owne gifts and opinions these are the persons whom I chiefly aime at as such that so trouble us that no Church-discipline can hold so long as they stand Others live in places where there are visible and reall Saints the Ministry godly and able yea it may be called to the place by these persons but because they cannot have all they would picking a quarrell with the Ordination of their Minister c. they choose some other Minister in some other Towne and so depart from the Prebyterial to a Congregational Church continuing still in the same Parish It is well these men hold up Ordinances and Officers yet the grounds of their practice the ensuing Discourse will try I am sure peace and unity among Churches cannot possibly stand with this practice it is very sad that we should not yeeld a little where we may nay where we ought for peace with our brethren whom we cannot but judge holy and sincere If there should sometimes fall out a quotation somewhat sharp yet I pray doe not thinke that I apply it to all Separatists but to some among them who may deserve it What successe my poore endeavours shall finde I know not I looke for little good they shall doe amongst the Separatists who with an imperious scorn neglect to listen to or read any thing which tends to overthrow their practice and though they be so confuted as they are not able to answer a word yet they scorne to acknowledge their error and returne to the Congregations from which they have separated which to me is a clear demonstration that however these men pretend conscience yet it is no such thing for were these men lead by a pure conscience considering how they separate from holy men such also as have beene instruments of their soules good considering also how they weaken their hands grieve their spirits they would heare read pray take any course that they might be sure to be found in the truth Act. 13.36 But I leave the successe to God my desire was to serve my Generation and there I rest Separation Examined I Will not trouble my selfe to prove that there is a visible Church upon the Earth or true visible Churches in England I thinke there are none that owne the Scriptures who will deny the former though there are some who deny the latter unlesse I meane the Congregationall Churches which they will acknowledge to be Churches but none else yet many of those whom I write against doe not owne them for though they have opportunity and may joyne with such Churches yet they refuse to doe so being unwilling I perceive to come under or
maintaine any Officers I wish there be not too strong arguments to prove that Covetousnesse and Ambition reigne too much amongst this kind of Separatists yet because the proving that there are true visible Churches in England will be of great consequence to the following Discourse as being the ground-work of it I will therefore produce one Argument to prove it and if I can prove that then it will necessarily follow there is a true visible Church on the earth which as I said I thought no Christian dares deny But what daâ—es not the vile heart of man think say or doe if God give it up to its owne blindnesse and wickednesse Master Burroughs making mention of Schusselburgius Iren. pag. 236. who collected the Sects Opinions and wayes of men soone after Luther saith There is not any one strange Opinion amongst us now but you shall finde it amongst them in terminis onely I remember not that one that hath taken some who though they acknowledge the Scripture yet thinke there is no visible Church on the earth Many were the errours that were confuted condemned in the first Synod in New England which errours I finde here in England but there was not this errour amongst them all to my remembrance it was wont to be said of Africa that every yeare it produced a new Monster but now it must be said of England that it hath produced such a Spirituall Monster as no Nation that owned the Scriptures ever did before The Lord save us from our owne hearts But I will now prove the Thesis as I said before there are true visible Churches in England Where there are many Societies of visible Saints and true Ministers consenting together to worship God in his holy Ordinances there are true visible Churches But in England there are many Societies of visible Saints and true Ministers consenting together to worship God in his holy Ordinances Ergo in England there are many true visible Churches The Major is so plaine that none who know what a visible Church is and what the Churches in the Gospel were but must needs yeeld it Here are the essentiall causes of a Church Ergo here is a Church First here is the materiall cause Visible Saints the Ministers also as visible Saints help make up the matter but as they are Ministers they make the Churches Organicall which is more 2 Here is the formall cause their consenting to worship God c. he that yeelds the essentiall causes and yet denies the effect hath lost his reason A Church is any company of Saints in body to set up what Ordinances of God they know This is a true Church and here God dwels In Hos 8.1 saith Mr. Burroughs He speakes of a Church as it is a Homogeneall body but I goe further the Separatists indeed will catch hold of his definition as Cyprian saith the Schismaticks in his time did of that text in Matth. 18.20 to which eh answered very well De unita Eccles and hence they will conclude we are Saints in body ergo we are true Churches But I pray are there not visible Saints also in the Churches from which you irregularly as I shall prove after did separate Are they not as good as your selves Did not you attain to that visibility of Saint-ship which you have while you were in those Churches Doe you set up the Ordinances of God so farre as you know or may know if errour doth not hinder as they doe from whom you have separated Nay you cannot doe it for you neither have men fit for Office nor will you endure to come under Officers and therefore if you looke into the ninth verse of the same Chapter Faciunt faves vespae faciunt Ecclesias Marciouitae Tertul. you shall finde Mr. Burroughs saying That those who love to live without Ordinances from under the government of Christ are those that love to live in the Wildernesse His words may be applyed to many of these Separatists who call for separation from the word as well as to those who are in the world But to my Argument All the quarrell will be about the Ministers The Presbyterians speake the same Language if the words in Body please you the Correlatum of Ecclesiasticall Power is a people embodied in a Church or a Spirituall corporation Gillesp Aar rod. 191. Iren. p. 102. and the consenting together c. as for Mr. Burroughs phrase there being in Body this they like well but so are not those visible Saints I mention say they But to take away that Cavill and so to returne to the Ministers you may know what Mr. B. meanes by being in body by shewing what makes a Church Covenant saith he I know nothing more is required but to manifest their assent to joyne with that Body to set up all the Ordinances of Christ so farre as they know And doe not those visible Saints actually manifest their assent by their continuall attendance upon their Officers in all the Ordinances of God and maintaining their Officers to that intent that they may have the Ordinances of Christ set up amongst them Shall the want of an Adjunct null the Church when as they do the very thing which they should expresse Put case you expresse your assent and doe not the things which you express your assent unto are you therefore a Church because of your expressing your assent What then are those who doe the things though they doe not expresse their assent in words but in Acts This is good and sufficient to prove the essence though both expression and doing is better but of this more after But the Ministers are those who spoyle all there are those who cannot deny there are Ordinances but there are none to administer them and this was the reason which one of the chiefe Members of a Church in London who did use to Prophesie as they call it in the absence or wearinesse of the Pastor gave to an honest man who was troubled because he fell off from the Church and exercising his gifts and turned Seeker I name not the man nor the Church but it is too true Now suppose I could not prove the Ministers to be true Ministers yet those visible Saints which I named before and those whom you call Presbyterians doe meet together conferre pray and fast together watch one over another and so if you wil consider them as Homogeneall Bodies they are as good Churches as those Separatists which have no Officers therefore still there are true visible Churches in England besides the Separatists and so my Argument stands firme But I will prove there are many true Ministers even amongst those whom you call Presbyterial Ministers thus Where there are men sufficiently qualified by God orderly at least for substance called to the Ministry and doe that worke which Christ appointed his Ministers to doe there are true Gospel-Ministers But in many of the Churches of England there are such men ergo in many of the Churches of
or three yeares together in secunda Epist and Episc orient Hence also care was taken afterwards that none but Bishops should make this the Presbyters must not dare to doe it Sylvester in Concil Rom. Also holy Vestures for the Ministers to be used onely in the Churches many of ours never owned these Epist Steph ad Hil. all have cast them away Also in the Lords Supper the mixing of water with the wine which how ever some say it was because of the hot Countries yet Alexander who they say was the first that mixed water with wine Epist ad omnes Ortho. Apol. 2. doth not give that reason but because water and blood came out of Christs side In Justin Martyrs time it seemes this was their manner also but this was not the Institution Also we find severall Church-officers among them as appears by Gaius Bishop of Rome who ordered that all the orders in the Church must ascend from the door-keeper to the Bishop Ostiarius Lector Exorcista Acolythus Subdiaconus Diaconus Presbyter Episcopus The ordination of these Officers with their Ceremonies are after set downe in the fourth Councel of Carthage If the Decretals of Gaius be of any Authority all these were in primitive Churches before Constantine came to the Empire More things I might adde but I forbeare And though there were many glorious Martyrs yet all their Church-members were not such many did yeeld to the heathenish Idolatry when persecution began yea and there were foul sins among them Churches as Adultery Whoredome yea even among those who had beene Confessors as Cyprian affirmes ingemiscimus saith he to see it drunkennesse swearing and what not as any one may well gather who is but a little versed in Antiquity De unita Eccles and by reading over the Canons made in their Councels we may learne what they were troubled with As for the Ministers they also were ordained by Bishops though they were not such lordly ones as ours were with Presbyters joyning with them this no man can deny that knows any thing of those times whence then I am bold to affirme that if there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in those times even while they were under persecuting heathenish Emperours then there are true Ministers and true visible Churches now in England and if there be none now neither were there any in those times but I thinke no man is so impudent to deny that there were true Ministers and Churches in those times I plead now for many Presbyteriall Ministers and their Congregations So I have done with my second Argument which if I should draw into forme it runnes thus If there were true Ministers and true visible Churches in the first three hundred yeares after Christ then there are true Ministers and visible Churches now in England But the Antecedent is true ergo the consequent is true Some we have that dote they tell us they expect men to be sent from God and endued with extraordinary gifts as were the Apostles c and these are the men who shall set up Churches and reforme us Good Lord whither will our vile hearts carry us if thou dost leave them These persons are not worth the answering but yet let me say a little to them and so passe on to the chiefe thing I intend For the gift of Tongues I need not speake what is necessary God hath given to most and many excell in that gift For Miracles I They were given but for that time to help on the worke of the Ministry as sauce doth meat but now if God doth that by the Ministry of his Servants without Miracles which he did then by the Ministry accompanied with Miracles viz. Convert Edifie Formalize c. this doth but more confirme our Ministry and prove that God ownes these despised Ministers The plaine word preached hath made as good Christians as preaching and Miracles 2 If any Body hath need of the gift of Miracles then Master Eliot in New England hath who now preaches to the Indians and others with him but God carrieth on his worke amongst the Indians without miracles 3 Doe not you your selves beleeve the Scriptures to be the Word of God if so what need have you of such kinde of persons so gifted The greatest Miracle which I desire to confirme me in the truth of the Scriptures is to finde the power of Christ his Death and Resurrection in my heart without which I care not for miracles But enough for these There are others who having been Members of an Independent Church where divisions have fallen out and so have broke in peeces they have said that Ministers are not fitted with a spirit of Government to keep Churches in order and therefore these are not times as yet for such Reformation I answer 1 The more shame for your Church-Members who are of such proud and turbulent spirits that godly and able Ministers are not able enough to governe them those who come into Church Communion with the awe of God upon their hearts we can governe them some such spirits we finde among the Independents but if we could see more it would be better 2 I wonder not at your Divisions when I see what Principles some godly Congregationall men have gone by for the ordering of their Church Government 3 Your Argument is as strong against the Apostles for there were Heresies and Schismes in their dayes But I leave these and return to that from whence I have made a digression Having then proved there are true Ministers and Churches in England let us examine the grounds why these men separate from these Ministers and Churches I conceive their grounds may be referred to one of these heads Either to The Ministers Either to Or Worship Either to Or the Congregation Either to Or the place of meeting If there be any thing else that cannot so well be reduced to one of these yet I am sure I shall meet with it before I have done For the Ministers they are indeed made the Dung of England who are more scorned then they especially the Presbyteriall men be they never so holy or learned Whether there be just cause in respect of men I leave it to God to judge I am sure when Ministers were in honour we found the Word had good effect but since they came to be thus scorned little good hath been done I deny not but God may have a just quarrell against us and give me leave without offence to propound the Reasons why 1 The first I had rather conceale because I should seem to spy out a mote in my Fathers and Brethrens eyes when I have a beame in my owne but therefore I rather propound it as I heard it from a Reverend and judicious Divine a man of a gracious and moderate spirit Mr. Nathaniel Rogers in New England I was talking with him there when the newes came of the Covenant that England and Scotland entred into the thing pleased him and all our
they doe looke upon abundance of our Presbyteriall Ministers as true Ministers of Christ 2 I know that they will disapprove of the practice of some who have separated from the Ministers whom they have before chosen and the godly Congregations upon this notion as I know some have done I do honour the grace of divers of those Christians who separated but Satan got into an Angel of light and deceived especially from that famous Congregation of Dedham of which I dare say that for a Parochial Congregation there is not the like number of reall and visible Saints in any Congregation in England I am sure there was not before this Separation was made and for the Ministers I speake not of them they are men well knowne I wish I had nothing more to trouble me then to live under that Ministry in that Congregation I hope whereas now I am a sad man I should be as chearfull as any man in England Mr. Burroughs said he could communicate in that Congregation then it seemes hee did not question whether there were any true Ministers Object But if you say Our New England Ministers doe renounce their Ordination which they had here for they are ordained againe Answ See Answ to 32. q. 70 It s true they are ordained againe but I never heard it was upon that ground for let a Minister be ordained there in one Church if there be cause of his removall and so be elected in another Church they ordaine him againe Thirdly I can say this our New England Ministers have often desired and frequently admitted to preach in their Congregations that went from hence but were not ordained there But our Ministers of New England are here judged nothing worth but are as contemptible as any in the mouths of our Separatists yet they are men of worth Secondly I answer to what you say It came through and from the Romish Synagogue If your argument have any force you must cast it thus Those Ministers which stand by a Romish Institution are no true Ministers of Christ But the Ministers of England stand by a Romish Institution Ergo the Ministers of England are no true Ministers of Christ The major you will grant and if we can prove the minor our Ministers shall utterly renounce their Ordination I dare undertake for them but the minor is very false they stand by no Romish Institution for Ordination is none of their inventions but instituted by the Lord Jesus himselfe long before Antichrist was But your Argument runs thus Those Ministers which stand by an Institution of Christ descending to them from the Apostles through the Church of Rome they are no true Ministers of Christ But the Ministers of England stand by an Institution of Christ descending to them from the Apostles through the Church of Rome Ergo They are no true Ministers This is the true meaning of your Argument but the major is very false shall the passing through Rome null the Institutions of Christ did not the Scriptures Sacraments and what ever Ordinances we now have descend to us from the Apostles through Rome Shall we therefore cast them away That Argument runnes as strong against our Baptisme and any other Ordinance with which though the Church of Rome mingled their inventions did they therefore null the Ordinance the vessels that were once dedicated to God by his owne Institution though they were put into the house of Nebuchadnezzars gods and those that were fit very like used by Belshazzar to drinke wine in when he praised the gods c. they were not so much as new cast againe but carried to Jerusalem Ezra 1.7 ad fin I pray what doe you thinke of the judgement of Mr. Johnson a man great I am sure among the brethren of the Separation though the Separatists in our dayes make a tush at the judgement of any man yea although he were of the Separation but yet consider the reasons which swayed him and then judge The case was this One that was a Minister in the Church of England was after chosen Teacher to a separate Congregation without any new Imposing of hands this he undertakes to justifie thus 1 Imposition of hands is of God and not an invention of man It was not a postor threshold first brought by Antichrist into the Temple of God but had therein afore Antichrist sate there 2. Baptisme and Imposition of hands are joyned together among the principles of the foundation spoken of Heb. 6.2 therefore it ought to be regarded 3. Imposition of hands is in the Church of Rome still given to the office of the Ministry and in the name of the Lord as they doe also still administer Baptisme 4. We found not either precept example or ground in the Scripture binding us to the repetition of it 5. The Priests and Levites in Israel becoming unclean when afterward they were cleansed retained still their places of being Priests and Levites and the children of the Priests and Levites succeeding after them â—id administer without a new anointing or new imposition of hands c. Thus then as Mr. Johnson and Mr. Ainsworth opposed Rebaptization because Baptisme is an Ordinance of God which was had in the Church of Rome before she fell into Apostasie and hath been there continued ever since the Apostles times how ever co-mingled with many inventions of their owne so Mr. Johnson defended the Ordination of that Minister which he had in England because Imposition of hands was in the Church of Rome from the Apostles times before her Apostasie and is there continued to this day though mixed with many pollutions of their owne I pray onely note this that whereas I say they stand by their Ordination I doe not meane that onely but also they have the election of the people of which I spake before and that the Separatists cannot deny which yet they make the greatest matter in a Ministers call Thirdly I answer If this argument be of any force it would rather prevaile against the first Reformers as in other Nations so against our first Reformers in England who came newly out of Popery but what is this to us who have beene above ninety yeares out of that bondage and have cast off their Government Worship and Doctrine so farre as Antichristian for a long time but if our first Reformers were able enough to maintaine their call then much more our Ministers Fourthly but if you will throw away all that comes through Rome let us see what course you will take when you have denied all the Ordinances that have beene administred for these ninety yeares in England for if no Ministry then certainly no Authoritative preaching no Sacraments and thus you have renounced yuor Baptisme which you had by these Ministers what method will you take in your Reformation how will you come to be re-baptized you will tell me You will covenant together and then elect and ordaine a Minister and he shall baptize Of this more afterward But
let me examine what you say at present You will covenant together supposing your selves to be Saints first say you so are you Saints by calling how came you to be so what did God call you immediately No you must say many if not all of you who have any truth of grace by the preaching of the word what by those Ministers from whom you separate as no Ministers because of their Ordination hath the Lord so farre owned his despised members as to make them the instruments to bring you to be visible Saints fit to imbody or covenant c and are these now no Ministers are you the effect of their Ministeriall labours and they no Ministers Surely in this one thing you have overthrowne your selves but then you say you will ordaine him this I will consider in its owne place Then he shall baptize but since he did renounce his owne baptisme also who shall baptize him first you must have a Minister to do that to be sure he cannot doe it himselfe nor none of you for you are private persons to administer the Lords Supper before you be baptised is contrary to Scripture rules There was a report when I was in New England that a Carpenter re-baptised Mr. Williams In Iust Mar. time none received the Supper but such as were first baptised Apol. 2. Ius Divi. Apend p. 269. and then he did re-baptize the rest I do not stand to defend the thing whether it be true or no but it was like enough to be true and sutable to the other opinions and practises of that wilde generation Where are we now Fifthly that is very observable which the London Ministers have added in the defence of their Ordination That in this Church of England the corruptions which the Church of Rome would have introduced about Ordination of Ministers and other Ecclesiasticall affaires were withstood and opposed by the Kings of England Nor doe we read of any Ministers that were ordained by any Agents sent from Rome but onely some idle ceremonies of Confirmation or them that were ordained by the Pall and the Ring brought thence into England Thus far the London Ministers In the margent they have set downe the Authours that prove it Sixtly There might be another answer given by some who are good Historians which I confesse I am not wanting both time and such bookes so farre as I can goe I will That the Churches in England were at first rightly gathered and constituted it is not to be doubted Mart. 1. Vol. p. 237 last Edition the instruments of gathering being Apostles or Apostolicall men as is evident by Mr. Fox neither is it to be doubted but they did ordaine officers in the Churches for we read of Ministers and Bishops The land falling to the possession of the Saxons about the yeare 568. p. 147. the Story saith by them all the Clergy and the Christian Ministers of the Britains were then utterly driven out in so much that the Arch-bishops of London and Yorke went into Wales thus long then it seemes the Ministers of England had no ordination from Rome P. 149. this appeares also by Austine who came into England in the yeare five hundred ninety eight he about the yeare six hundred P. 153. assembled the Bishops and Doctors of Britaine so that still here were Ministers but where their abode was the story sets not downe but supposed to be towards Wales and charged them to preach the Gospel to the English-men and also that they should among themselves reform certain rites in their Church so that still here were Ministers and Churches specially for keeping of Easter-tide baptizing after the manner of Rome c. to which the Scots and Britaines would not agree this shews they did not depend upon Rome Afterward there was another Synod gathered where seven Bishops of Britaine were present and though we finde a great battell fought presently after where the Britains were overcome yet the Story doth not mention that the Ministers were all slaine there Now the thing I aime at is this that since there were so many Ministers and Bishops in England who had their ordination by succesfion from those Apostolical men and not from Rome and wee finde so many when Austine came why may we not suppose that these might againe preach the Gospel to the English-men though at first they were opposite when they had smarted for their folly and why may we not suppose they might returne into England againe especially into those parts neare Wales also those who were driven out as the Story saith they were suppose into some other parts might not they returne into England also must we take the words of the Story All the Clergy and Christian Ministers were driven out strictly so as none at all were left though latent c those who are good Historians may helpe here and it would be some answer to that objection of our ordination coming from Rome though unto me the objection is very feeble if this answer cannot be made out As for the Churches of England being rightly at first gathered Way of Ch. in N. E. Ch. 7. p. 111. as above mentioned Mr. Cotton yeelds it so as he saith That all the work now is not to make them Churches which were none before but to reduce and restore them to their primitive Institution c. To that part of the Objection They were ordained by Bishops I pray what doe you thinke of Master Bradford and the rest of those holy Ministers and Martyrs that were ordained by the Bishops in those dayes Cranmer Ridley Hooper c was he an Anti-christian Minister and all those Ministers who were then ordained though now they were scarce got out of the Popish Ceremonies c. the holy Martyrs then did never offer to separate from Mr. Bradford and the rest nor call them Antichristian Ministers I pray how many such Bradfords have you among you Not all the Separatists in England can afford such a one Christ cals him his faithfull Minister but you say Mr. Bradford is none cursed be that doctrine Now if those Ministers were true Ministers though they had an Episcopall Ordination then so are ours notwithstanding their Ordination by Bishops It is vaine to say those Bishops were godly men so were ot ours for it is a bold assertion to say that none of the Bishops since have been godly men no doubt there are divers in Heaven And besides it is absurd to thinke that the truth and efficacy of an Ordinance depends upon the truth of Grace in him who doth administer it as for Ceremonies if you search they were not cleare then no more then our Bishops were It is a silly shift to say They walked according to their light I hope there was the same rule to judge of the truth of Ministers then that is now it was not their light which made them true Ministers but the rule But the truth of their Ministry was never
questioned till our Separatists rose up who are not comparable to them in parts or holinesse 2 I pray what doe you make of those Ministers who were ordained in the Primitive Churches Cyp. Epis 33 they were ordained in Cyprians time by Bishops and Presbyters and by Hieroms time the Bishops had ingrossed that power into their owne hands as appeares by that speech of his Excepting Ordination Epist ad Evagr. what doth a Bishop that a Presbyter doth not so that by this time it should seeme that the Presbyters were turned out and the Bishops only Ordained It is possible this might be but in some Churches for the fourth councell of Carthage ordered That no Bishop should Ordaine without the councell of his Clergy Can. 22. Can. 3. Now what were these no Ministers Anti-christ was not yet got into his Seat for the yeares of his reigne had been expired before this time It is strange that those should be no true Ministers who lived so neare the Apostles times and under persecution also as in Cyprians time neither was Cyprian surely the first Bishop that did Ordaine for there were Bishops before him yea besides this Ordination by Bishops we finde the Papists contending strongly for strange Rites which they use in Ordination and they say they were also used in those Primitive times for the anointing of the hands of the Presbyter that is ordained this they would prove from Cyprian or at least the Author of The Card. worke of Ch. who shou ld seeme to be as old as Cyprian also from Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 10. c. 4. which place would seeme to favour it and others there are whom they quote See Greg. De Val. to 4. d. 9. q. 5. Also for the shaving of the heads of their Ministers this we finde indeed in August time Ep. 26. Ep. 147. And this Calvin himselfe doth not deny to have been used then and gives the reason why it was used which Greg. de Val. scornes and gives other reasons To. 4. D. 9. q. 5. p. 3. If the Decret Epistles of Anicetus be of any Authority we shal finde it in his days long before Augustin and I wonder that Greg. Val. doth not quote him I am apt to think being they were so prone to Ceremonies in other Ordinances that something was added to this also Iust l. 4. c. 19 Sect 27. and I marvel that in the fourth Councell of Carthage where they set down their rites in Ordinations of other officers and some very ridiculous that the ordination of Presbyters should be the most pure but still with Bishops as well as Presbyters which is the thing now in hand 3 A Bishop if you consider him meerly as a Bishop was but a Minister and set apart to doe the worke of a Minister the same which all other Ministers may doe Bishops did Pray Preach Baptize administer the Lords Supper Ordaine Suspend Excommunicate and these things other Ministers doe and may doe that he did lift up himselfe above other Ministers that was his errour that he would take upon him the sole power of Ordination and Excommunication this was his errour but as the addition of an human invention did not null the Ordinances as suppose only growne persons had been baptized and that by dipping and after dipping they had been signed with the signe of the Crosse would this have nulled the Ordinance in the Anabaptists esteeme no more this usurpation of the power of administring these Ordinances did null a Bishop so as he was no Minister the Ordinances were and are Christs institutions Indeed you may call him an Over-growne Presbyter but a Presbyter 3 Ep. Ioh ver 10. Diotrophes loving of pre-eminence did justly deserve reproofe and John did no doubt deale with him but yet for present did not deny him to be a Minister though a corrupt one for the sole power of Ordination they tell us It is the order of the Church of England as of the Councell of Carthage that when a Presbyter is Ordained all the Presbyters that are present shall lay hands As for the sole power of Excommunication though it was an errour grosse enough yet by the 17. Canon Concil Sardic Ofius who was the cause of that Ganon being made was also at the Councel of Nice it should seeme the Bishops by that time had got that power to excommunicate alone which Canon provides a remedy for a person wrongsully excommunicated by his Bishop to got releefe by Appeales now if that corruption had got in so early long before Anti-christ had got to his Seat no wonder though it was found among our Bishops yet I hope they were true Ministers whom they Ordained As a Bishop was a Lord Bishop his Lordship was but a meere civill addition annexed to the Bishoprick by Regallfavour his Lordship was no ingredient into Ordination 4 The Lawes of this Realme doe account nothing Divine in a Bishop but his being a Presbyter Lond. vind 125. Dr. Seam answ to Diat p. 85. and therefore the Parliament in their Ordinance for Ordination tels us that they did ordaine as Presbyters not as Bishops much lesse as Lord Bishops yea I have heard a reverend Minister now Pastor of a Congregationall Church in Essex say that when the Bishop ordained him he told him I doe ordaine you as I am a Presbyter 5 The Ministers of England are ready to acknowledge those defects and corruptions which did cleave to their entring into the Ministry by the Bishops heare their owne words London Vindica p. 124. We doe not deny but that the way of Ministers entring into the Ministry by the Bishops had many defects in it for which they ought to be humbled but we adde that notwithstanding all the accidentall corruptions yet it is not substantially and essentially corrupted They acknowledge then the errour and desire to be humbled for it what more would you have God will accept of this I doubt not and why not you How to mend Dr. Seamans Divinity I know not where you have also the errour acknowledged implicitely for it is in answer to this Objection then giving his judgement in the case When sinne cleaves to the manner of Calling Answer to Diat p. 85. through the generall errour or corruption of all sorts of people who are concerned in it c. it is nototherwise to be invalidated here below then by doctrinall Censure and Repentance and not by iteration Repentance through Christs Bloud doth take away corruption out of Gods fight and will it not when they are so ingenuous out of your sight 6 There is a maxime taken up among the Independents Many may truly beare the name yea they owne it and practise accordingly yea and others and it goeth for as good Divinity as any the Gospel hath viz. That errours in Non-fundamentals must be borne withall in Churches we must labour indeed to convince people of such but if they will not be so convinced we must not
mutuò Beza so Piscator so Zanchy When drunkards are full of wine then they begin to sing their Songs saith he so Christians filled with this wine have these Spirituall Songs Psalmes c. to sing for the difference between these see our English Annotations or Hiero. in Loc. Severall Objections are here made which I shall not study to answer only in a word 1 They say The text doth not say sing one to another but speake one to another the Psalmes dwelling in their hearts they were to dispense them in way of teaching but as for singing he maketh no mention of that untill he came to teach them the manner of dispensing the Word of Christ a darke expression unto God in the end of the verse and that is making melody in the heart Master Cotton answers with a grave reproofe That men should rather bow their judgements and practises to Scripture Language then bow the sence of the Scripture to their owne conceptions against the Language of the Scripture for saith he it is one thing to speake one to another in Psalmes and Hymnes and spirituall Songs as is done in singing and another thing to teach one another out of Psalms c. It is true they were to teach one another out of the Psalmes and the scope of Paul will reach that but if he had meant only so he would not have said Speake yee one to another In Psalmes but Out of the Psalmes as is the Scripture phrase c. 2 To me it seemeth strange if that were all Pauls meaning why should Paul mention only those parts of the Word which use to be sung Why doth he not mention the Prophets Isaiah c. as also the New Testament to teach one another out of them Are there not as excellent Truths gracious Promises to be found in those Prophets and worthy for Christians to be instructed in as in the Psalmes or other Songs that we finde of Moses Deborah c but for Isaiah Jeremiah and all those Prophets besides other parts of the Old and New Testament they were never wont to be sung in the Church but only these which Paul mentions in both places not adding any portion of Scripture more in the Epist to the Colossians then to the Ephesians therefore I cannot beleeve that should be the meaning as the Objector saith 3 The Apostle mentions singing we see presently now if any thing can be made out of what the Objector saith it may possibly be this That Paul would have them teach one another the sence and scope of a Psalme that all may understand the meaning of the Psalme they sing as is the practise of some Ministers if they be to sing a Psalme that is more darke then in a few words they give the people to understand the meaning of the Psalme they sing and so sing with understanding 1 Cor. 14 15. I say Why may not this be something of the meaning I leave it to more able heads to judge But this doth not exclude singing But whereas he conceives singing should be only the making melody in the heart Hieron in Colos 3. Nusquam legimus aliquem sine voce cantasse unde necesse est hic in corde ex corde intelligi c. I pray let him heare what an old Commentator said long agoe upon the words We read no where that any one sung without a voyce wherefore it is necessary that in the Heart here he understood from the Heart viz. That we sing not only with the mouth but with the heart So Beza In your heart i. e. Serio cordis affectu non autem linguâ duntaxat neque enim in corde idem hic declarat atque intus apud se cum mentio fiat canendi in caetu So other Divines as Calvin Zanchy c. whom I forbeare to name The same text also affords a good ground for singing Davids Psalmes with other spirituall Songs recorded in Scripture or else I desire them to give me a reason why Paul should direct us to the very Titles of Davids Psalmes and yet not meane Davids Psalmes any one that hath the least taste of the Hebrew Language knowes this Some of them are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Psalms the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used about forty times in Davids Psalmes I doe not stand upon the exact number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hymnes the Book of Davids Psalmes is named by this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Spirituall Songs See Buxto Concord Exod. 15. this is frequent in Davids Psalms also Deborah useth this word Judg. 5.12 so now it seemes strange that Paul should point us to these and yet we must not sing them which were sung before The third ground that moves me is the example I finde in the New Testament of Christ himselfe with his Apostles Matth. 26.30 they sung a Hymne he did not sing it between the Passeover and the institution of the Supper as being a Typicall thing and so let it be joyned to the Passeover as the Jewes did but after he had instituted that Ordinance which must last to the end of the world and they received the Bread and Wine then he and they sung as some conceive six Psalmes Beza in Loc. beginning at 112. to 117. whence it is the practise of Churches following the patterne to sing after the receiving of the Supper So the example of Paul and Silas Act. 16 25. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hymnos canebant Deo saith Beza or Hymnis laudabant Deum Piscator and Pasor they praised God with Hymnes that which some object the text saith they sang praises not Psalmes this is very poore besides the originall word how should one sing praises to God but in some Psalme spirituall Sons c. for Praise if you take it properly as distinct from honour and glory is but the honourable making mention of another and that externally by tongue or pen also that text Heb. 13.15 by him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually that is the fruit of our lips c. intimates as much And this text over-throws that conceit of singing only in the heart which one that was a member of the Church of Rowly in New England had taken up and upon that ground and some other notions he had denied singing and maintained as well as he could that singing of Psalmes was no Ordinance of God I doe not know how this mans opinion came to be knowne for had he kept his owne counsell I suppose none should much have taken notice of him which makes me thinke it was of his owne venting at first our Elders laboured with him to convince him the Elders of Ipswich besides his owne Pastor this text was alledged to prove singing with an Audible voyce for they sang and the Prisoners heard him yet this man could not or rather would not for the thing is plaine as any one may understand be
tell me how may any one who is not an Officer dispense the Seales preach Authoritatively c You practise indeed some of you as if hee might but it is a thing abhorred of all men both Classicall and Congregationall God is a God of order in his House as well as in the world In the Civill State none must be Justices of Peace unlesse set apart to the Office Heb. 5.4 Ier. 14.14 every man cannot make Warrants nor execute Justice yet some men have as much knowledge in the Law as many Justices have but in the Church of God there must be no order Our Ministers then have been but private men all this while they have dispensed the Ordinances it is the Call to a Place or Office that makes men Officers or publick persons but Call they have none by your esteeme Learned Chamier proves To. 4. l. 5. c. 14. Survey ch dis part 2. pag. 42. 45 That Baptisme administred by a private person is no Sacrament at all Mr. Hooker speakes home to this point he layed downe this conclusion That there is a causall vertue put forth in a subordinate way under Christ to bring in the specificall being of an Ecclesiasticall Office to a person c. After three things premised he comes to a fourth viz. Persons though gifted and fitted every way be they never so many they are not therefore Officers A call they must have without which none can warrantably doe any act which belongs to an Officer Without this whatever is done in that behalfe is voyd and of none effect The validity of an outward Call appeares in this if it proceeds from such who may give it by rule because whosoever hath regularly received this Call he is then a true Officer though not inwardly graced and fitted worthily to such a place c. Afterwards he speakes to this purpose againe Pag. 3. p. 9 It is a Frenzie of the Anabaptists which begins to labour with the loathsomenesse of it selfe that any Christian gifted who can teach or administer a word of instruction to win a Disciple after him that he in a corner may Baptize him but as Paul said of Jannes and Jambres their madnesse is made to appeare to all c. If the Lord Christ in his infinite Wisdome and Kingly care conceived it necessary for the honour of the place and the execution of the worke of a Deacon to appoint choice men and solemne Ordination to Authorize them to the worke c. The summe is the practise is but loathsome and the Acts of such men are voyd who doe such things as properly belong to a Church-Officer and are not called to the Office thus Mr. Hooker Mr. Keys p. 6 Inst l. 4 c. 15. s 20 In par 2. 1. Vol. p. 766. Bell. ener to 3. l. 2. c. 2. Cotton he speakes against such practices so doth the streame of all Divines Calvin Zanchy Perkins Ames c. Hence then if you null their Call you must null all the Acts they have done as Ministers and you will be troubled as I said before which way to come into order you had better therefore be quiet and if you wil needs quarrell with their Ordination yet content your selves with their election which you say is the chiefe Before I passe on to my last answer let me a little examine this Thesis viz. Election gives the essentials and Ordination is but an Adjunct Heretofore I have indeed been of this opinion never much weighing the thing being wholly carried away with the Authority of Dr. Ames and Mr. Hooker and others admiring their learning and holinesse seeing my selfe but a meere babe in comparison of these men and so I judge of my selfe still but I remember a passage of Mr. Hookers in his conference with forty Ministers said he We see things fall cut in our Churches which puts us upon further searches so when I observed what use is made of this Thesis in England amongst our Sectaries and what confusion is brought upon us for any number of Sectaries will elect one be he what he will but Election gives the essence Ordination is but an Adjunct therefore may be left out these practises have made me to search further into this opinion this being my greatest trouble that if I cast off the opinion I must go crosse to such men whom I doe so much admire and reverence I am apt to thinke our holy Men did in this as our first Reformers did in other points Luther let some words fall against the Law which might have beene spared so our Divines in their definition of saving Faith in opposition to the Papists so in this point the Papists cryed up ordination too high ours now are runne on the other side and cry up popular election as high and cry downe Ordination but surely a medium might have beene found out which had come nearer to the rule with submission I speake it Reverend Mr. Hooker layes downe his Thesis thus Survey part 2. pag. 66. Election of the people rightly ordered by the rule of Christ I wish he had set downe this right order gives the essentials to an officer c. but I doubt with honour to this choice Saint he hath not layed downe his Thesis so cleare as Dr. Ames whom he quotes after I presume he intends the acceptation of the person elected must concurre nay I will affirme the acceptation is as essential as their election for what if this or that or foure Churches more chuse I will refuse them all if I please if election gives the essentials then it seems I must be a Pastor to that people who elects me wil I nill I but this reverend Mr. Hooker will not owne then I say election doth not give the essentialls Secondly I say my own acceptation is as essentiall to my Call as their election therefore Dr. Ames layes it thus Medul Th. l. 1. c. 39. s 32. Vocationis essentia est in electione Ecclesiae acceptatione electi but this is not material for our Sectaries are forward enough to accept if any will elect In searching out this truth I shall desire to set by all men and consult with the Scriptures I wil first search what texts we have for Election then what for Ordination and this I set down with my self that if Ordination be but an Adjunct the election so essentiall then the Texts for Election are farre more cleare full and those for Ordination more dark and rare for an Adjunct the meanest Logician knowes is but little in comparison of an essentiall cause it doth consentire but modo quodam 2. It supposeth the subject compleat in its essence before 3. Therefore potest abesse much might be spoken this way The Texts I finde for Election are three neither doe I observe our Divines to quote any more 1. The first is Act. 1.23 where we have these things observable as here are eleven Apostles in this election but we allow those
to choose where there is no officer to guide them and many times very weak persons 2. It is very easie to choose one of these for v. 21. It was one who had accompanied them from the time c. This was easie for the meanest to know but to choose a man fit for a Pastor requires more skill then so 3. If we observe it narrowly they did not so properly elect the Apostle for when they had appointed two Joseph and Matthias suppose one should have asked Peter or the rest which of these is the Apostle he must have said he could not tell properly God made the election then they knew who was the Apostle like to some Corporations in the choice of a Mayor the floore nominate two but the Aldermen choose which they will have whence the people say The Aldermen choose the Mayor 1. Something may here be gathered for popular election but very different is this practise from ours I could adde other scruples but I forbeare 2 The second place is Act. 6.3 a very cleare place for the popular election of a Deacon but the last words of the verse do very much shake this notion of Ordination being but an adjunct yea it shakes the essentiall causality of popular election Doe yee looke on c. but they adde whom Wee may appoint over this businesse How doe the Apostles appoint them over the businesse It is by Ordination vers 16. Those that doe authoritatively appoint another or others over some businesse they put forth a causall vertue surely in that appointing these appointed by this Act of Ordination the Apostles did not not meddle here with the election then the Apostles Ordination was more then an Adjunct From this place Divines argue commonly If they may choose Deacons then much more Pastors to whom they are more engaged must honour maintaine them c. Thus we argue one while a majori the people elected an Apostle ergo they may elect a Pastor here now a minori the people elect a Deacon ergo they may elect a Pastor but then those Axioms one of them must bee false a majori licet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 solummodo à minori solùm 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 both which experience proves to be false and Logicians observe it but put the case we should question this argument The people may elect a Deacon ergo their Pastor election followeth the judgement and is guided by it but must we needs suppose the people to be as able to judge who is fit for a Pastor as who is fit for a Deacon Dr. Ames saith à minori ad majus si quantitas probabilitatis intelligatur semper concluditur affirmatè Is this as probable Thes log 143. Sure it is lesse probable that the people should be fit to judge of the fitnesse of a Pastor then a Deacon I am confident there are hundreds of Congregations in England in which there are many reall Saints yet all the Jesuits in Rome might scatter themselves into these Congregations and not be discerned if the people were left alone to their owne election Medul l. 1. c. 39. s 31. Bel. ener To. 2. l. 3. c. 2. s 23. Hence therefore our Divines dare not trust the people alone with the election of an officer but tells us they must have the counsell of the Presbyters as Dr. Ames and Mr. Cartwright upon Act. 14.23 Rhem. Test We do not onely give unto the Bishops Scripture Bishops Ordination but also we make them the chiefe and directors in the election saith he where is this practised The third is that of Act. 14.23 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but certainly if we come to find out the substantives to this participle they must be the same which were substantives to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and they were Paul and Barnabas I know what is said about 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to defend the peoples election as the custome was taken from the Grecians Dr. To. 4. l. 5. c. 14. s 65. Ames saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 apud veteres idem sepe sonant so it appears by that passage of Basil quoted by Chamier to prove that no private person may baptise 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but if it it be taken in that sense here I doe not know how it will pleasure the people unlesse we should goe crosse to the gramaticall construction The summe is Zanchy in 4 praec Calvin in loc Piscat in loc obs 2 Malcol in loc Diodat in loc English Annot. c expound it of the ordination of Paul Barnabas there are no places brought for the peoples election but those who are but shallow will finde enough from the Texts to wrangle very hard thouh I am for the peoples election my selfe The Texts brought for Ordination are these Act. 6.6 When they had prayed they laid on hands on them Act. 13.3 When they had fasted and prayed and laid on hands c. they did not separate Paul and Barnabas by Election but Ordination Heb. 6.2 The laying of bands there is meant of Ordination say Pareus Dickson Gillespie Johnson H. Jacob urges the Text so that he would overthrow all the Ministry of England because he said they erred in the Foundation but he mistakes Mr. Hooker proves Church-discipline to be a fundamentall point of Religion from this place thus That which is a fundamentall point of Religion that hath Divine Institution c. But Church-discipline is a fundamentall point of Religion Heb. 6. Laying on of hands being by a metonymy of the Adjunct put for Ordination Ordination one particular put for the whole of Church discipline So Mr. Hooker 1 Tim. 4.14 With the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery I know not that this Text is questioned by our Divines Mr. Hooker and our New England Divines from this Text conceive Imposition of hands in Ordination to be nearest the rule as I have quoted them before 1 Tim. 5.22 Though some would have it of the admitting of penitents of which we have no example in Scripture yet the common interpretation is of imposition of hands in Ordination this interpretation hath other Scriptures to confirme it the other none 1 Tit. 5. Ordaine Elders in every City I doe not finde that our Divines oppose this place neither What Sectaries carp at I weigh not Rom. Miscel p. 37. 10.15 How shall they preach except they be sent Mr. Gillespy hath I thinke sufficiently cleared this Text. To be sure he is not alone in his interpretation He likewise clears Ordination from that Heb. 5.4 and first verses Now since the Scripture is more copious and plaine in giving us examples and presidents of ordination of Ministers then of the peoples election of Ministers though I grant something may well be drawne out of those Texts for election against the Papists besides the ancient course of the Church I cannot see any reason if Scripture be our guide why we should cloath these Texts for Ordination
be said what need of that Ordination they may preach without It is true they may but it is not so comfortable as when men are set apart by a Divine institution there is an authority more conferred they may now baptize as they finde successe of their Ministry which was the old way and shal not need be put to those troubles which now they are Suppose laborious Mr. Eliot were not ordained who should baptize the Indians called home to Christ by him The first preachers that came into England were ordained before elected here as suppose they should convert divers Indians forty or fifty miles from any Plantation how shall these be baptised what shall they now elect and ordaine these men shall unbaptised persons ordaine an Officer where have we a rule for that then it seemes all these must come to another Church c. forty or fifty miles distant to a Church also whose language they understand not and there be baptised by a Minister whom they understand not nor he them Here are many odde things fall in crosse to all Scripture presidents but to have these ordained and sent forth is not crosse to the Scripture presidents but if this be granted then Ordination without election may give the essentials to an Officer But further here you say election gives the essentials I beseech you what shall we doe then with all those Scriptures where ordination is held out so fully shall we omit them if they containe but an Adjunct No I am sure this gracious Saint would not doe so his heart was so awed with high thoughts of God and his Word that he dared not omit such a Divine institution as those Scriptures hold out are then those six or seven Scriptures alledged for ordination as necessary to a Ministers Call as those three which are brought for election if not I pray give a reason why some Scriptures should be lesse set by then others in this nature Divine Authority we acknowledge in both but this was far from this reverend mans thoughts for we see him prove Church-Discipline to be a fundamentall point of Religion from imposition of hands then if these Scriptures be equally as necessary to the constitution of a Minister that none must dare to omit them we doe but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in saying that ordination is but an Adjunct c. In constituted Churches those who omit ordination goe crosse to those many texts of Scripture they follow not the patterne Some I know make little of election but I would give it the most and so sin against the second Commandement as do they who go crosse to the texts for election and if election in an extraordinary case may serve without a formall ordination in the like case may ordination be without election and so we are even Further in answer to the Argument they are Relates suppose I should say The election of the people gives a part of the essence to the Officer for so we considered the Call of a Minister to be a Totum arising out of election and ordination as Doctor Ames it may be you will say Relata quà sic doe not give a part of the essence but the whole here then will be our trouble whether we must bring Scripture to Logick or carry our Logick to Scripture why then doe not Ministers act officially upon bare election as I said before But it is answered their election gives the essence as he is their Minister but ordination gives the essence as he is a Minister Mr. Hudson hath spoken closly to this Vind. Chur. Cathol visâ—â— p. 138. ad 151. for ordination doth invest a Minister with power to act beyond those who have called him giving him an habituall power in actu primo to exercise and performe the Acts belonging to his Office elsewhere upon a Call I know indeed our New England Divines many I say not all as wel as reverend Mr. Hooker are of another opinion That a man is an Officer only to his own particular Congregation Relatorum mutuum est iter but suppose I should say A Minister bears an habitual relation to the whole Church-Catholick visible which some of our Divines doe now I thinke strongly prove for my part I could never swallow that notion that a Pastor preaches only as a Pastor to those who elected him and to other Churches as a gifted Brother I dare boldly affirme in the Apostles times and the purest Ages next them this notion was never heard As for this notion of a Catholick visible Church I have not so much busied my head about it till of late in my weak judgement I think there is so much said for it by Mr. Hudson especially and others that I suppose it will not easily be answered that which made me leane to this opinion was First the light which his Scriptures and Arguments bring along with them 2 I did not see by this notion that the people were at all defrauded of what is properly theirs they may elect officers they may have power to bring in testimony to exclude unworthy communicants yea or may object against any who should be admitted Church-members if Churches were in their first constituting if they knew good reason why they should not be admitted neither are they debarred from consenting with their officers in excommunication I say I doe not see but these priviledges may consist with this notion 3. Mr. Huds vind 160. 161. Let particular churches walk as they should regularly and they have as much liberty as they can desire if they walk irregularly See Mr. Cottons Keyes 53.54 the second Impression I saw this notion did not crosse that Position which I have held out viz. That a particular Church organized and walking regularly may execute all the power of the Keyes within it self I see not how a particular Church in this case is at all hindred for such a Church to walke irregularly and to claime exemption from all other Church-power let those that will be members of such Churches I desire not to be so but in such Churches where there may bee meanes to helpe a wicked heart 4. In this notion I saw a way how Congregations that have no Ministers may have Ministers ordained successively by officers which I am sure was the old way yea and officers may be judged per pares and excommunicated I saw it would bring in much order into Churches 5. The practises I observed in New England that did imply such a notion as this did lead me much to it 1. As that members of one Church did so frequently partake of the Sacraments both the Lords Supper and Baptisme in other Churches one Pastor it may be might administer the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to the members of five or six Churches at one time I know it is often said that a Mayor of one Corporation may administer justice to the members of another Corporation if they be under his jurisdiction but he
must not goe to them but similia ad pompam non ad pugnam The Analogie betweene a Commonwealth and the Church will not hold as I may touch afterward but this I am sure according to that practise that seven make a Church they may admit five or six whole Churches and a Pastor chosen by none of them may administer the Sacrament to them all at one time but doe we finde whole Corporations goe to the Mayor of another Corporation for Justice Mr. Philips Pastor of the Church in Water-town while Mr. Wilson Pastor of the Church of Boston was here in England went to Boston and administred the Lords Supper to that Church I was not then in the Country but I heard of it soone after when I went over with Mr. Wilson I know no sin in that act I thought to have given some Instances how frequent this was in the Primitive Churches Vind. Cath. Ã 192 ad 196 for one Minister to act officially beyond the people who elected him But Mr. Hudson a man far more able hath set down those examples which I would have given and many more to whom I referre the Reader Yea it was ordinary for the members of one Church to dwell one or two yeares nay six or seven yeares in another Towne and to partake of the Sacraments there as frequently as any of the members of that Church Indeed of late the Elders have not liked this to have them live so remote from the inspection of their owne officers and therefore have required such to joyne with the Church where they dwell this is good and orderly The letters also of Recommendation which the Churches make for the members when they come over hither requiring of the Churches here what communion counsell or comfort they shall need promising the performance of the like debt to others c. 2. Also I saw if a man were excommunicated out of one Church he stood excommunicated out of them all but if a man be disfranchised in one Corporation another Corporation may receive him and give him his freedome if they please this shews there is something more in a Church then in a Commonwealth 3. I saw they preached frequently in other Churches but that it should be onely as gifted brethren this is so harsh to conceive I pray what act doth the mayor of one Corporation do in another Corporation like this that carries authority in it and that here we must distinguish of the Mayor if he did this at home he did it as a Mayor authoritatively but in this Corporation he doth it as a private man Further they are Ministers or Pastors onely to those who elect and the fraternity only elect where there is no officer but there are divers in the severall Townes who are not joyned to the Churches so they did not elect then it seemes they preach as pastors onely to those who elected but to the rest of the Towne as gifted men consequently when God blesses their labours to the conversion of any of those they convert them instrumentally not as Ministers of Christ ordained separated to that worke but onely as gifted men yea they never convert any as Ministers unlesse some of those who elected them be close hypocrites and so they convert them but ordinarily those who choose are reputed godly already and they are Ministers only to them Hence rises that vile notion that some here have taken up That Pastors should preach onely to the edification of the Saints not to others 4. I have heard since I came away that when people have chosen an Officer and had no Officers to ordaine him that the Ministers of other Congregations have done it and the Confession of Church-discipline by the Synod of New England as also Mr. Hooker Survey part 2. pag. 59. allow as much 5. If one Congregation should prove pertinaciously scandalous and hereticall then though they doe not formally excommunicate such a Congregation yet all the Churches in the Country would proceed to the Non-communion of such a Church and for all the Churches to expresse so much to such a Church We do all renounce communion with you c. this amounts to a censure and is equivalent to excommunication containing in it all the effects that appear in excommunication and so I should reckon my selfe as much excommunicated Mr. Burroughs saith They may by a solemne act in the name of Christ Iren. 43. refuse any communion with them till they repent They may declare in the name of Christ that these erring Churches are not to be received into fellowship with any Churches of Christ nor to have communion one with another in the Ordinances of Christ all this solemnly in Christs name Onely some may be will say if this be an Ordinance of Christ bring out the texts to prove this and then we shall see if those texts wil not beare it out that the Churches united thus in this censure have not some authority over that particular Church If you goe to the old politie the Synedrion had power over particular Congregations if to light of nature that will carry it so that we must have texts to decide this Question For my part I must leave this to better heads Laying all together the Churches seeme to pactise as if there were such a Church Some things there are which a little trouble me in this notion that make me not come off so roundly in receiving it I question not the Church-catholicke-visible but I meane that it is one organicall body but as he said Veritas est temporis filia so I beleeve Time will cleave out this but so much I see as commands me to lean to that side I was thinking how dangerous this might prove If the major part of the Catholick-visible-church should decline grow superstitious c. other Churches yet remaining pure if they did not subject to the major part what then but I saw inconveniences also on the other side if a Congregation be so entire that they can elect ordaine and are exempted from all power then Arians Photinians and all manner of Hereticks may elect ordaine c. who shall deny them and besides suppose the major part of Congregationall Churches should decline they would proceed to Non-communion of other particular Churches more pure and this is in a manner all one Further If so then if a Minister be removed from one Congregation to another or if his people should dye he now is but a private person and may nor baptise c. Hence also he must have another ordination when elected and as oft as he is elected I have not heard any there but here alleadge it I confesse I am not cleare in the practise I have searched to finde what Scripturall grounds there were for it but I find none that these Reverend Elders expresse some have alleadged in conference that Act. 13.3 Paul and Barnabas were ordained before and now they are ordained againe but I finde Mr.
the people being but a homogeneall body to reject i.e. excommunicate an ossicer will cost more to prove had Reverend Mr. Hooker beene alive and saw what work Church-members make here in England in very many Churches I thinke it would have caused him to bethinke himselfe againe of the peoples power Something we heare of is done in a Church not farre from the place where he lived it cannot be kept close the light of that fire shines into England For the people to withdraw their subjection from such an officer when there are no other officers to joyne with them to excommunicate him this is not denied for by their subjection to him they made him their officer that was some part so they may withdraw their subjection againe But for Excommunication Mr. Cotton saith It is one of the highest acts of rule in the Church Keys p. 16 and therefore cannot be performed but by some Rulers Mr. Burroughs saith Iren. 51. If the Church be without officers they cannot doe that which belongs to officers to doe they have no Sacraments amongst them neither can they have any spirituall jurisdiction exercised amongst them onely brotherly admonition and withdrawing from such as walke disorderly for their owne preservation So then here is a way for the people to preserve themselves though they cannot excommunicate and those Texts which Reverend Mr. Hooker brings Matth. 7.15 and Phil. 3.2 doe not prove the Church as a homogencal body to have power to excommunicate their officers though they may prove withdrawing as also Rom. 16.17 may prove it For the reason of his consequence that staple rule ejusdem est Instituere destituere this maxime is turned every way sometimes to prove the people may excommunicate their officers because they doe Instituere The people in Election put forth no act of jurisdiction therefore they may put forth the highest act of jurisdiction in excommunication that there is no act of jurisdiction in election Doctor Ames acknowledgeth Ovas rationales possunt eligere sibi Pastorem sicut sponsa eligit sibisponsum non per jurisdictionem aut Gubernationem sed potius per subjectionem In the answer before he affirmes the same and else-where now what arguing is this Bellar. ener to 2 l. 3. c. 2. S. 19. Ib. S. 13. to argue from subjection to the highest Act of Jurisdiction there was no Authority in election for electio non cogit yet there is more power seene in Civill elections then Church-elections as I shall touch afterward but in Excommunication Authority appeares That also is denied that the people doe instituere in constituted Chruches and ordinarily what may be done in an extraordinary case is no ordinary rule Here the maxime is turned to prove that they may Jnstituere because they can destituere but that will be denyed unlesse it be in the sence before mentioned i. e. in what manner and how farre they did instituere i.e. by a subjection to be their Officer so they may with-draw their subjection from him and not owne him to be their Officer but to Excommunicate is more Quest But suppose this be granted that the Fraternity cannot excommunicate their Officer but with-draw their subjection they may you say and so he ceases to be their Officer but what is he now an Officer to other Churches A. If the with-drawing their subjection and rejecting be irregular then though they make him not their Officer de facto which he is still de jure yet his relation to the Church-Catholick visible doth still hold and another Church giving him a Call he hath then power actu secundâ— to administer the Ordinances there For instance the separatists cast off him whom before they chose for their Officer supposing now unlesse he will renounce his ordination he is no Minister doth he therefore cease to be a Minister how bufie some Congregationall Churches are in with-drawing from their Officers it is too manifest and many goe to the Anabaptists some turne Seekers and-if all the Members doe thus doe they now cease to be Ministers 2 But if the with-drawing be regular the cause just tried c. then that which is sufficient ground for their with-drawing from him is just cause why he should be excommunicated being pertinaciously scandalous or Hereticall as Mr. Hooker supposeth If then the case of a Church be so as they are cast by providence into some remote place where are no Churches besides to combine with then as their election of him c. as I said before may supply the want of ordination so this with-drawing in such an extraordinary case may be Analogum to excommunication but say our Divines if that Church be in combination with other Churches as now under a Classis then the people shall not need to stay there in their with-drawing but the case being judged and tryed by the Classis they as they ordained him when the people elected him the people consenting doe excommunicate him then as a man cast out of one Church is cast out from the Catholick Church visible so he who is cast out from being an Officer to this Church is cast out from being a Minister to the Church-Catholicke visible For the other Argument Burro Iren p. 50 Nort. resp ad Apoll. p. 76 78 the people conveying of power to an Officer I know of no power the people conveyes only a designation of such a person to officiate in this or that Society but their power they receive from Christ immediatly as our Congregationall men affirme and hence they act in his Name not in the name of the Church 5 The last answer I would give to this Proposall is this if you conceive this to be the only way of Reformation then you must give the Ministers strong proofe that you may ordaine the Ministers will as much question your power to ordaine as you question the Bishops power so that we take it for granted you are able to prove this because you are so punctuall you say for reforming by the word But of this practise I much doubt 1 My ground is because I finde not one Iota of any such thing in the New Testament Obj. Though you doe not in the New Testament yet in the Old Testament there is Numb 8.10 A. That place is the only resuge but 1 It is commonly answered That it is no faire arguing to goe to the Old Testament for one thing we would have and when another comes to the same Politie for an argument for their turne now to debarre them and tell them this is the old Politie either leave out the Jewish Politie altogether or else give others leave to fetch Arguments from thence as well as your selves 2 If you will goe to that Politie why may I not as well prove That the Civill Magistrate may ordaine as well as Moses did Aaron Levit. 8. 3 But in that Church at that time there were Officers Aaron and his sonnes thence if that be a rule it must follow
that though there be Officers in a Church yet the people may ordaine which I am sure those Divines who are for the peoples power in ordination will never admit being crosse to their owne Principles and Scripture 4 We finde in the eleventh verse that after that was done Aaron did wave these Levites before the Lord so that they were not compleat till Aaron had done his Act whence I remember learned Master Cotton in his discourse with me said the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there did but answer to the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the New Testament and Aarons waving of them did answer to our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this clause only I remember but he had a larger answer which I tooke from him in discourse by which I remember he did enervate this Objection but I lost his notes with all my other helps in my shipwrack These men call for precept and example give you us one for this in the New Testament for you put us to that also we must give you them out of the New Testament yea Iwould goe further and desire them to give me one examplein the first six hundred yeares after Christ that ever the people did ordaine their Minister now this is strange to me that we can finde no foot-step of any such thing in the Scripture nor in the Ages next and yet that we should make it so frequent that they must ordaine most frequently for if every particular Church be Independent as now such a Church where I am in a small Village where the maintenance will not keep one Minister and therefore to be sure we cannot have more Ministers then if the Minister remove or dye if there come a new Minister the people must ever ordaine thus it must be in most places in England few will be excepted Iustin Mart. Apol 2 and if every new election must have a new ordination then it must alwayes be in the peoples power In the Primitive times there were Churches in Cities and Villages but that the Christians in Villages did ordaine their Officers I would gladly see that proved Ordination in those times was carried by a continued succession the Apostles ordained some Ministers those ordained others so downwards but never by the people Learned Dr. â—ell ener to 2. l. 3. c. 2. s 6 Ames seemes to answer this for whereas Bellarmine had said In novo Testamento ubicunque mentio fit manunm impositionis semper ea Apostolis caeterisque Episcapis nunquà m vero plebi tribuitur The Doctor answers to this In Historiâ novi Testamenti exempla babemus constitutionis Ministerii ejusdem etiam conservationis sed non restaurationis ejus aut reformationis post generalem Apostasiam omnia igitur quae pertinent ad plebem fidelem in tali casu non representantur ibi certis exemplis However these words seeme to carry it as if the Doctor did hold that the people had this power in a generall Apostasie yet I question whether the Doctor would looke upon the Churches of England now under such a notion neither would he deny the ordination of our Ministers to be valid for substance but yet here one might cast in something in times of Reformation it may be he saith 1 To Reforme the Minister is to Forme it now as it was first formed But the Ministry was not at first formed by the people ergo the Ministry cannot be now reformed by the people I thinke the Major will not be denyed for the Minor let any prove that According to this some will say We must have Apostles they formed the Ministers first we speake of ordination I say Non sequitur unlesse you can prove the Apostles ordained only quâ Apostles if so I know not how those Ministers whom the Apostles did ordaine could ordaine others but to be sure they did 2 I defire a text of Scripture that holds out this that the people may ordaine in a generall Apostasie 3 I doubt we shall rarely finde such times when there is a Society of godly Christians to ordaine but there is some Ministers also ordinarily there are Ministers who teach this people 4 It will be a question Whether the Apostasie hath been such as to require this for if Baptisme was not repeated but was thought valid though administred by a Romish Minister because he was set apart to the worke and kept the essence of the ordinance why might not the ordination administred by those Ministers hold as well 2 A second ground that makes me doubt is this it seemes strange to me that Christ should appoint extraordinary officers and make that a part of their work which the people themselves may doe Paul leaves Titus to ordaine but what needs that the people might well say what need Paul leave Titus to do that which we can doe our selves Frustra fit per plura c. the Apostles never needed but to preach and convert the people to the faith when they had done so they should have said we have now done our worke brought you to be beleevers you may now elect an Officer and ordaine him your selves the power is yours onely here would have been some trouble about baptizing since then I finde that this was part of thier Office then I cannot beleeve this is the peoples worke Paul might easily have left us a president in some Society of Christians that would have quieted all our disputes More might be said and is said by others but I see our New England Divines do almost yeeld it by giving power to some Ministers to ordaine in other Congregations Since nothing can be drawn from Scripture by precept or example to prove this hence some would draw it out by Argument Those who can do the greater may doe the lesse The people can doe the greater viz. elect Ergo The minor is as freely denyed as it is affirmed election is not the greater Scripture-light being judge That was the designe I doubt of making Ordination but an Adjunct for so indeed it would easily bee granted if election gives the essence and this only be an adjunct the people may well ordaine Yea and in a Church where there are Officers to Ordaine I know not why they who give the essence may not give the adjunct why should an adjunct be proper to the Officers only in that Church when the essence doth not belong to them Mr. N. W. Omnis quaestio non per aliud quod quaeritur babebit resolutionem nec ambiguitas per ambiguitatem sed ex elaris manifestis c. Irenae l. 2. c. 10. further then as members they joyne with the people for so it seemes the Officers elect as members and if you doe elect only as members why should you not also ordaine as members for election is the greater this the lesse The other Argument is the people are the first subject of the power of the keyes Ergo But this is not easily yeelded it was a
witty speech of him Let the Elders keep the keyes and the people the keyclog it proves so too often What our Divines have said about it is well knowne I thinke they have battered this notion pretty well Augustine sometime is quoted for this opinion but I am confident it was never in Augustines thoughts In Evan. Joan. Tract 50. Tract 124. I am mistaken if he be not rather for the Catholick Church by his words especially in the latter place quoted not mentioning what other Divines have spoken there are two or three things that have made me doubt of this so as I never did throughly close with this notion when I was but a private member of a Church 1. That which is the primum subjectum is the proprium subjectum none doubt of this Proprium subjectum est quod cum suo accidente reciprocatur Animal est proprium subjectum sensus homo risus hence we say omnis homo est risibilis omne risibile est homo this is Axioma 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but every Axiome that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth include in it the rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where the predicate is true de omni subjecto omni loco omni tempore this is true of animal sensus So it must be true of the power of the keyes and the Fraternity Omni tempore but if we finde the power of the keyes exercised before there was a Fraternity then there was some other subject before the Fraternity When Paul came to Corinth he preached Authoritativè Ergo there was the power of the keyes in some subject but the Fratemity was Non-ens at this time how then could they be the subject Those who are the effect of the power of the keyes are not the first subject that is clear But the Fraternity is the effect it was so in all the Churches which the Apostles gathered and is indeed to this day This was one Argument troubled me So that which is primum is immediatum subjectum but how can this be since Mediantibus Apostolis and so now Mediantibus Ministris the Fraternity is made The elector is before the elected its true of Christ who elected the Apostles and gave to them the keyes from whom by a continued succession of Ministers still the Fratemity was made but had not the power of the keyes had some effect there had not been a Fraternity to choose an Officer though they are now in time before him whom they now elect yet they were not before him or them quâ fratres who by the power of the keyes in the ministry made them capable to choose an Officer therefore the power of the keyes was in some subject before them Besides election is no part of the power of the keyes Doma log p. 461. Keckes syst log l. 2. c. 20. therefore to argue the people elect ergo they are the first subject c. is fallacia non causae procansâ causae nomen hic usurpat ur pro quo vis argumento taking that to be a part of the power which is not 2 If so that which is primum est absolutum subjectum cui accidens absolutè sint ulla limitatione partis inharet sic animal est absolutum subjectum sensus adeoque visus auditus ideoque tantum animal dicitur rectê videre audire oculus non videt propriè quia non est Animal quando ergo oculus dicitur videre id non subjectivè intelligendum est sed instrumentaliter quod animal videat per oculum To apply this to our case the power of the keyes is in the whole body so the power of preaching c. there is the power subjectivè propriè so that if we aske who preached to day we must answer properly and subjectively the people preached but instrumentally only the Pastor preached so for the administration of the Sacraments this is very harsh hence againe because animal videt if a man dye or beast the eye which was the instrument of seeing excepting it may be the dissipation of the animal spirits else as an Organ it remains intire in the coates humors and optick nerves but yet it sees not So it seemes a Minister in case his body the people should dye he being but the instrument of their preaching he can preach no more this is strange how doe they preach out of their own bodies ordinatily If the men dye and only women and children be left the officer hath lost his preaching and cannot preach to them authoritatively because the Fraternity in whom the power was subjectivè is dead 3 I have observed that seven have been esteemed enough to make a Church suppose now one of these should offend another of the seven he must deale with him if he will not heare he must take two more here are four of the seven if he will not hear them tell the Church that is the three left the rest are parties Some to prove that Mat. 16. To thee I give the Keyes must be meant the Fraternity say that To Thee here is the same with Mat. 18. But this is somewhat doubted for that in Mat. 18. may well bee meant of a particular Church The visible Church is here meant saith Mr. Hoober Sur. p. 278. but in this place the Church must bee meant of the Catholike visible Church for it must be such a Church as must not faile But particular Churches may this or that particular Church I meane 2 But suppose i the so yet why must that Mat. 18. be meant only of the Fraternity Tell the Church i. e. the Fraternity if hee will not heare the Church i. e. the Fraternity where are the Officers are they no body one in New England would needs know of me why they should tell the Ministers of it when as it is Tell the Church not the Ministers this indeed would confirme it and here we should have brave order Mr. Vind. vin p. 6. Cawdry upon that Text seemes to have a good Argument since that the Kingdome of Heaven is there meant the Church the keyes are given to Peter as distinguished from the Church It is not a reasonable construction saith he of the Text to say I give to thee the keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven that is of the Church and to mean I give to the Church the keyes of the Church whence he concludes they were given to Peter and so to the Officers for the Church as the keyes are given to the Steward for the family This Argument is worth the Answering Object The strongest Objection to mee is this the first subject takes up the whole adjunct for there is a reciprocation therefore the Presbytery cannot be the first subject for the keyes are not reciprocated with them instance is given in Election Admission of Members Discipline which cannot be performed without the Fraternity Answ If reciprocation be so required c. then this will as well deny the people to bee first
subject for reciprocation cannot bee with them for Preaching Administration of Sacraments Government c. to be sure the people cannot doe there will be more said for the Presbytery they actually choose they actually admit they actually govern and exercise discipline they have both the Power and the Act but for the people they cannot doe any Act which belongs to the Officer nor have so much as the power of it we may see by this where the power will cheifly reside to say the Fraternity though they have not officiall power yet they have power to chuse an Officer and so consequently they are the first subject this is very unsatisfactory to have the Adjunct reciprocated at the second hand it being denyed before that they have the Adjunct the reciprocation betweene homo animal risibile is not at second hand 2 This doth not at all shake me but I stand on my ground still conceiving that the Church or ganized is the first subject of the power of the Keyes not that I make the people equall sharers in the power of the keyes with the Officers but what I mean I shall expresse afterwards 3 Yet am I not satisfied nor could ever be that whatever belongs to the Church must needs be included in the power of the keyes Election I look at it only as Potest as circa claves but not to be a power of them The Text tells us the use of them what thou bindest what thou loosest to bind and to loose is the use of them but what is this to the election of an Officer when as hee may refuse their Call or the Call of any Church how doe they loose him or bind him Electio noncogit For the other two things Admission and Discipline Those Divines who say that Baptisme makes men Members of the Church if they can prove this strongly they will carry away the former scil that the people have nothing to do in Admission of members for baptisme makes members now to this I cannot yet fully agree there might be much said for the contrary I conceive the New England Divines have spoken well to this besides the opinion of M. Cartwright Ans to 32. Qu. p. 12. and Ames who joyn with them So those Divines who affirme the Presbytery may excommunicate renitente plebe if they can prove it strongly they will carry away the latter and then indeed its cleare the people have no interest in the power of the keyes but this neither can be admitted and the streame of Divines oppose this But though I yeeld the Ministry cannot orderly doe these things without the people yet I deny the people do these things in the same way and order that the Ministry doth them And therefore Quaere Whether it be proper to say the people hath any power of the keyes For Admissions this will be more troublesome because we finde no examples of the Churches where the people did shew their power in Admissions for that act of Paul Act 9.26 27. Whether it be sufficient to prove it I leave it to consideration they did not admit why they were afraid of him the text saith being a persecutor then no wonder the Apostles as well as the people were afraid of him the 27 verse saith Barnabas carried Paul to the Apostles not to the people which would imply the Apostles carryed the stroke in Admissions Further to search into this let us suppose the Ministry of the Church of Corinth preach an Infidell heare them the man is so far convinced of the vanity of his Heathenism and danger of his sinful lusts he wallowed in and so far convinced of the necessity of that Doctrine which he heares that he renounces his Idols reforms his conversation c. now he comes to the Ministers to signifie what is done and what he desires to be received into the Church and be baptized being willing to give up himselfe to that doctrine the Ministry instrumentally hath wrought this now what power hath the people here to hinder this man is it at their choyce whether they will admit him or no when the Officers see what effect the preaching hath had here being a Disciple made shal they be hindred from baptizing him what power have the people here what shall they goe first and examine him I know not where examination was ever given to the people must he make his profession of faith before all the Church as Victorinus that brave Rhetorician Aug. Con fes l 8. c 2. we find it was not their course to doe so with all those whom they admitted for many did onely to the Presbyters This power indeed the brethren have that if any know this man to live in a known way of wickednesse that cannot possibly stand with any hopes of faith to come and give in witnesse against such a person to the Officers I suppose this will be yeelded and the Officers would not now baptize him But what power more they have I know not they see his conversation and can testifie of that but it were strange that it should be left to the peoples choyce whether they will admit a man or not when the word hath had so much power and they cannot bring in sufficient objections to the contrary Put case the major part of the members of the Church had drunk in some errors that a major part may do so hath been proved in our time and they will not give their consent to the admission of the man if they finde him not of their opinion commonly those who have drunke in error use to look untowardly upon those who are contrary now the Ministers have no power to admit this man nor baptize him though they see he hath right to it But I leave that For Discipline I conceive renitente plebe the Eldership should not excommunicate it is in vaine to doe so indeed if the people will hold communion but yet this doth not argue that the people doe here act as doth the Eldership For the Eldership doth it Authoritativè the people by a popular consenting with the Officers that the person bee excommunicate the people doe act here obedientially to their Officers therefore a vaste difference is betweene them I remember a passage of Mr. Hookers in the Assembly of Divines When a case is brought to the Elders the Elders having searched all things to the bottome now the Elders bring the case to the Fraternity and lay it down clear before them this is the case and this ought to be done now said he the people are bound to obey us as well as when wee preach And it is cleare for as in preaching they discover the minde of God so in this sentence they declare the same concerning this act Keyes 15 2 Cor. 10.6 We have in readinesse to revenge all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled Mr. Cotton saith the Apostles revenge of disobedience by way of reproofe in preaching doth not follow the peoples obedience but
proceedeth whether the people obey or not it was therefore their revenge by way of censure in Discipline which they had in readines when the obedience of the Church is fulfilled in discerning and approving the equity of the Censure which the Apostle or Elders have declared to them from the word That phrase discerning and approving of the equity needs a little more clearing but I leave them However this Reverend Divine seems to refer that obedience unto the wil of Christ by the words going before his exposition yet that hinders not but it may in some sence be applyed to their officers who also obey Christ for that phrase is not strange to have people obey their officers Heb. 13.17 O bey your Rulers there may be some thing in it not only obey your Teachers but Rulers when they rule as when they preach Mr. Norton expressing Resp ad Apol. p. 67. as I conceive how the brethren act with the Eldership for so I remember it was in his Tables which I had had some thoughts to have Printed them but in that great fire when Colchester was besiedged having lent them to a friend they were burnt as I heare Partes judicii in rebus jurisdictionis quales sunt fratrum examinatio dijudicatio sententiatio Causae per modum obedientiae Presbyterio debitae 2 Cor. 10.16 cap. 2.9 Mr. Gillespie also besides his own opinion giveth reasons Aar rod p. 289 c. and alledgeth divers Divines who interpret this place of Church censures these words when your obedience is fulfilled gives him one ground for his interpretation for as Estius and Novarinus explain the Apostles reason it is in vain to excommunicate all such as are worthy of excommunication when there is a generall renitency in the Church but still we observe the people act obedientially to their officers that they did not at that time was their fault Besides if excommunication be the highest act of Rule and therefore cannot be performed where Rulers are not as saith Mr. Cotton and if a homogeneall body can expresse no spirituall Jurisdiction but onely withdraw as saith Master Burroughs then the people having Rulers are not now made Rulers nor have the power of jurisdiction there is indeed jurisdiction exercised among them by reason of their Rulers to whom they consent and obey Government is proper to the Presbytery saith acute Mr. Norton Resp ad Apol. p 65 67 and shewes under seven particulars how the Presbyters governe in Church affairs and so in this exercise of Discipline if so then the people are governed in this act how then doth a people governed act in reference to Rulers governing but by way of obedience So that to mee there appeares a vaste difference betweene the power of Discipline as it is in the hands of the Presbytery and as in the hands of the people though the Ministers cannot excommunicate without the people I speake a few words to this point here because I would spare the labour in another place As for the Analogy drawne from the civill power the people are the first subject of civill power Ergo the Fraternity is the first subject of Church power For the Antecedent I leave that but the consequence I should deny there is a great disproportion First The People are not the effect of their Magistrates or follow after them as the people of Israel were not of Saul but the Fraternity quâ sic is the effect of the Ministry The Apostles converted and after them the Ministers converted Converting is but to make the people such for whom the power of the keyes is given Secondly There is some thing in this In Corporations if the people have elected a man to be an Alderman or Mayor if he refuse it there is a Fine set upon him some have been fined 20 li. some more according as the Corporations are but if the body of the people will choose an Officer and he will refuse it what then I know no kind of Church act that reaches him this shewes there is something more in civill then Church power Thirdly The people do give to their Magistrates a power to make Lawes c. for their good but the Church gives no power into the hands of her Ministers but they have all their power immediately from Christ Fourthly Hence the people may limit their people or inlarge it But the people cannot limit nor inlarge the power the Ministers have Fiftly We see the Magistrates Act in the name of the people in the name of the Commonwealth of England but Ministers doe not act in the name of the Church but Christ as saith Mr. Burroughs and Mr. Norton before quoted More might be produced but I content my selfe with these and though that maxime be received Salus populi Suprema lex yet it hinders not but the people may save themselves though they be not the first subject of the keyes Mr. Richardson whom Dr. Ames and Mr. Manuscr Tables Hooker honoured much and follow much placeth the power of binding and loosing in the Governours not in the people This discourse I have runne into by answering to the first Proposall which being the maine I have bestowed more lines about it the rest I shall run over quickly Come we now to the second The second Proposall may be this The second Proposall No Congregational Divine dares put the forme of a Church in the explicitenesse of the Covenant but these doe Survey pare first p. 47 48. Wee would have an explicite Covenant in every particular Church this we judge to be the forme of a Church and we cannot joyne with a Church without it A. Many people have taken up this by the end a Covenant is the forme of a Church understanding it of an explicite Covenant but they know not what a Forme is if they did they would be more wary then they are But let us heare what Congregationall men say from whom you take up this word 1 Mr. Hooker saith an implicite Covenant preserves the true nature of the true Church c. and an implicite Covenant is when in their practise they doe that whereby they make themselves ingaged to walke in such a society according to such rules of government which are exercised amongst them and so submit themselves thereunto but doe not make any verball profession thereof Thus the people in the Parishes in England when there is a Minister put upon them by the Patron or Bishop they constantly hold them to the fellowship of the people in such a place attend all the Ordinances there used and the Dispensations of the Minister so imposed upon them c. by such actions they declare that by their practises which others hold forth by publick profession thus farre Mr. Hooker so Mr. Norton Resp ad Apollon p. 22.28 so the Confession of Church Disc by the Synod of New England 2 You have a Nationall Covenant a solemne one I thinke it is strong enough if you
observe it well there is that which answers the Covenants you finde made in Scripture To say by that we are made a Nationall Church this were very silly yet I thinke there may be so much said for a Nationall Church that will not readily be answered But suppose the Churches in New England which God forbid should decline c. If the Generall Court should make such a Covenant to passe through all the Churches in the Colony would it make a Nationall Church they would conceive their Churches still to be Congregationall 3 I make no doubt but you should have found if you had but a little patience that when the Ministers had come to set up Discipline they would have brought their people under some stricter tye to subject to Church Discipline I have heard some speake of it they would have found it too laxe that implicite consent to make people put in execution that Matth. Read his first chapter in some Churches he saith there was Solennis protestatio subjection is sub discipliná Ecclesiasticâ p. 13. 18.15 16 c. as some have found before them and it was not without some cause that Apollonius sets downe that as one thing that is required of a Church-Member and whom they will admit to the Lords Supper That he shall promise to subject himselfe to Discipline he tells us thus it was concluded upon in severall Synods he mentions fix Synods I have found the experience of this so already that I should thinke my selfe in a poore case to exercise Discipline without it the people feele some stricter tye upon their spirits and I thanke God I have knowne good effects by it 4 If you will needs goe closer doe you may enter into a close Covenant as did those worthy Christians in Wetherfield in that old Prophets dayes who sets downe their Covenant in his seven Treatises but they did not separate as you doe Excell those Christians if you can The third Proposall The third Proposall We would have no Church-Members but visible Saints A. This were a thing to be wished indeed and that I beleeve which the Ministers would be glad if they could attaine it I gave you instances before out of their Bookes and it is that which they would put forth their power to effect so farre as the state of the Kingdome is capable of if once they were invested with power to exercise Discipline and indeed as the condition of England stands there is need of a Civill Power to back them the case is not now as in the Primitive times 2 You must put a difference between Churches new erecting and these in England which have been Churches so long when I raise a house new from the ground I may then doe as I please but if I be mending of an old house I must doe as well as I can repaire by degrees 3 What would you have done with all the rest Excommunicate them that 's a peece of work indeed and besides there is a great deale of worke to doe before we come to that it may be many will not be found contumacious nay you see they doe separate them from the Lords Supper and divers begin to looke something more narrowly to baptisme 4 How many corrupt Members doe you finde in the Church of Corinth and Galatia for the latter what a change was there made in their affections towards Paul Gillesp Aar rod. 287. who close did they cleave to those Judaizing Zelots who turned them away almost to another Gospel insomuch that though Paul wished those Seducers were cut off Gal. 5.12 i. e. by Excommunication yet he did not peremptorily command it renitente Ecclesiâ The Church of Corinth had drunke in vile errours the women it should seeme disorderly would speake in the Church and for Members 2 Cor. 12.20 21. you may conceive by the sins there mentioned what they were many of them Ch. 13.2 Aar rod 289. Paul indeed saith he wil not spare them This place Master Gillespie thinkes gives light to Ch. 10. 6. When your obedience is fulfilled our Ministers debarresuch from the Supper 5 If you did not thus separate from them they might doe more towards the reforming of their Congregations but you weaken their hands as I shall touch hereafter 6 But what doe you meane by visible Saints what is required or how would you judge of one what would you have them reall Saints I suppose you doe not thinke so crosse to the texts the Floore the Drag-net c. what would you have such as by the exactest scrutiny that can be made we may judge to be Saints really I defire your Texts for this Did the Apostles doe thus when they baptised any surely they must either judge by an Apostolicall Spirit but we see they were mistaken if they did so or else they must stay a good while and try men winter them The Churches after took more time but they did not come to that exact scrutiny c. Bell. ener to 2. l. 2. c. 1. s 5. and summer them as we say before they did judge of their Saint-ship but this they did not doe they baptised them quickly such Members as the Apostles admitted we may or else give us texts to the contrary I have touched this in another Tract desiring that those who are for such strictnesse in Members would give us their grounds remember Doctor Ames Falsum est internas virtutes a nobis requiri ut aliquis sit in Ecclesiâ quoad visibilem ejus statum The fourth Proposall We would have power in admission of Members and in Excommunication Ans For admission of Members 1 When you bring proofe out of the Word what power Church-Members have exercised in admission of Members I hope you shall finde none shall debarre you from having that power 2 When there are Members to be admitted who never were Church-Members you shall finde it granted but that is not our case here if you would have power in admission to Sacraments you have that liberty given you to bring in Testimonie for or against and if you bring in sufficient proofes against persons you shall finde they shall not be admitted thus must you doe in any Church what-ever If any good Christian shall come and give in testimony for another the Minister will gladly receive it For Excommunication the Presbyteriall Ministers will not Excommunicate without the peoples consent you shall have liberty first asking leave of the Minister who is the Ruler and Mouth of the Congregation to propound any question soberly and gravely which you would have cleared before you manifest your consent if there be any thing darke to you that so you may clearly obey them for I hope you doe not looke to be equall with Officers in this Act and I hope this is more then ever you saw practised in old times Now that the Ministers will not Act against the people I suppose they meane the Body of the People for if they
Vindication Mr. Edwards also only he should not have jumbled all Independents together as if they did favour such vile Opinions he should have spared some now if we have such Nurseries among our Churches we shall finde it a difficult worke to keep our Churches cleare some of these cursed seeds will be blowne into the Gardens 4 They cause Church-Members to walke irregularly if any doe not walke as they should or have drunke in any poyson if now the Brethren first and then the Officers come to deale with them they care for no body If they be of any number to make a Society that they can meet together then they will rend away and so meet together but if not so many if but one yet they know where there is a Society of Separatists who wil take them in and hence what care they for all Officers and Churches But have you experience of this you will say Yes that I have I could instance quickly in more then one Church Hence I have heard Congregationall Ministers say it was but a vaine thing to goe about to gather a Church in a Town where the Separation was or if it were neere neither have they gathered any 5 They doe labour to draw away the hearts of our Members from us it hath been the language of some to my people You must not beleeve the Black-coats Another time preaching about familie duties as it lay in my Catechise in order one of them would needs know of one of my people what I had to doe to preach such things I must teach Christ so none shall finde any setling who attend upon Ministers but blessed be God there be many who can tell them its false and I pray God keep me from their setling 6 They have spoyled many hopefull young Plants persons newly awakened who have given some hopes they have come in and like the spirits at London stolne them away this blessed Burroughs complained of whose Ministry in the beginning of these troubles worked excellently and hoped for a fine crop but this Generation got away those young ones Cap. 5. v. 7. p. 431. as they saw them moved and leavened them with their errours thus this man lost many of his hopefull Plants yea I finde something in his Exposition upon Hosea where though he doth not expresse his owne particular trouble concerning this for what I mention was his speech to some friends I could set it downe larger then I have done yet there is the thing I know no such dreadfull argument of Gods displeasure against this Nation these are weighty words yea he repeates it over againe at the end of the same Paragraph as this that as soone as young ones begin to know Jesus Christ there are presently corrupt errours infused into them under the notion of honouring Christ and free grace c. For my owne selfe I am but weake and God hath not honoured me in that kind so as others of his Servants yet I have known where I have been bestowing paines and have had some hopes within a fortnight that an apparent change hath beene discerned Some of this generation have come to draw them away into their Societies telling them they shall never bee settled if they attend upon Ministers If these things be seriously considered you may easily judge how comfortably our worke will goe on while these are tolerated amongst us this is poore comfort for Ministers to goe about Church-worke when as if their members will prove wanton if their officers come to deale with them and send for them they shall scorne to come at them and send them base letters abusing their officers I could set downe in the margent where such things have been acted but I forbeare this is nothing so long as the Separatists the enemies of the Ministry are tolerated for they can resort to them yea if all the members of Congregationall Churches as well as of Presbyterian Churches will separate from their Officers and goe into their private houses they may if they will if they doe but meet together and exercise their gifts it is sufficient So that though Christ hath appointed the standing ordinance of the Ministry and left the example how these shall bee orderly called yet here is the foundation laid to destroy that Ordinance and bring in nothing but confusion Christ was faithfull in his house as a Sonne and ordered all things in that house he hath used his Ministers hitherto to bring home those that he hath elected and purchased he will have his house upon the Mountaines but now we are come to this point not to care whether we have Ordinances or no officers or no what comfort then can we have in going about this work of reforming our Churches But further if it be well observed these people are no such friends to the State though they are looked upon as the onely friends the State hath it will appeare if we consider them in a morall or politicall respect First for the morall respect the strength of a Christian state lies in having Christ on their side and I am sure the strength of our State lyes there now is that a way to keepe Christ on our side to tolerate those who seeke to undermine that whereby he is knowne in the world take away Ordinances and the Ministers who are appointed by him to dispense these Ordinances where shall we know Christ but these labour to doe this Can it be for their safety to tolerate such that hinder his visible Kingdome from being set up at least with poore comfort what is the reason that all this while there is no Discipline set up why are we in such a shattered broken condition no man hath any minde to stirre our obstructions are not from the Drunkards Whoremongers prophane swearers c. chiefly these carry so much conviction in their owne consciences that they dare not much appeare but these Schismes and Errors tolerated have been our obstructions If it shal please the State but to put forth some power to heal these not that I would have all errors knockt down with club-law and but stand to the Ministry I hope we shall see the Churches of England in another posture and things so carried that no man who walks by a pure conscience shall be justly offended for as for the Classicall and Congregationall Ministers they are come so near that I beleeve there will be no difference between them Those who hinder Christs Kingdome cannot be true friends to a Christian civill State If any shall object the State hath prospered since these Schismes and Errors have had their liberty therefore God doth witnesse for them I should say there is little Divinity in this kind of arguing viz. to argue from Providence to the maintaining of things crosse to the word of God besides here is fallacia non causae pro causâ For next to Gods own free soveraign pleasure which was the main cause the instrumental cause of the prospering
of Army c. must be referred to the many precious Saints of God Ministers and others who are men resolute for Christs Ordinances and Officers men who stand to their old Principles abhorring these Errors and Schismes who very much fearing least if the Scottish party prevailed in this way there would be little liberty for the sound and moderate Presbyteriall men as well as Congregationall and therefore they lay in hard with God by fasting and Prayer for the disappointing of the Scottish designes and surely Christ hath more respect to his owne people who are tender of his Ordinances Truths and Officers and long to see him set up in all his Ordinances before they dye rather then to such as make light of all the former Few of these Separatists trouble fasting and prayer very much they are so full of joy they cast off those flesh-afflicting Ordinances I would have none to mistake me as if I were an enemy to the Church of Scotland No verily I doe much honour divers of the Ministers and the Church of God is much bound to blesse God for their labours both of former times Rollocke c. and also in these latter daies I conceive that man is either proud or ignorant or erroneous who shall read Mr. Rutherford against the Jesuits and Arminians and doth not blesse God for him Yea the peeces that he and Mr. Gillespie have writ concerning the controversies of these times for their learning and sweetnesse of spirit in them who can but blesse God for them yea though in some places crosse to our Congregationall men though they are condemned and sleighted here yet they are reverenced and highly esteemed amongst the worthies in New England Yea I adde further I wish from my heart that the Discipline of the Church of Scotland as I finde it set downe in Mr. Rutherford and others were set up in England though in some points a little crosse to Congregationall principles and yet lay all together what I finde in Mr. Gillespie I am so satisfied that I know men of moderate spirits in the Congregationall way may be borne with and live sweetly with them What the practices of the people in Scotland are I know not I am sure they have not worse hearts then mine they are not their Practices but their soundnesse in Opinion and Discipline I desire they must be honoured for their purity in Worship against humane mixtures and for their soundnesse in the faith 2 In a politicall respect they cannot be judged true friends to the State This appeares First From what we have observed already among them in that time when the Levelling party stirred how many of these did strike in with that party is well known here in the Country and other great Townes by drawing up Petitions onely they were interrupted in their worke some again speaking most basely of the Parliament they could match the old Royalists in their language such I say as are now and then were tolerated and I doubt if that party moves againe we shall see what faithfull Subjects these are though now they are tolerated as friends Secondly The tolerating of these keep other men of great holinesse learning and abilities from cordiall closing with the State the Covenant to be sure is expresly against Schisme and Heresie I have heard leading men say if there were a good Aristocracy set up in the Nation so that we might have true Patriots for the Nation and if they would take some order with these Schismes and Errors so that the Ordinances and Government of Christ might be set up indeed they could submit very wel if God shews it to be his mind to lay by Monarchy Now it would be more honour and safety for a State to have such men close with them rather then such as these are I have heard this from such as are leading men before the Worcester fight which I adde because it may be thought now they would do it now they see no other hopes I shall wind up this Discourse against our Separatists many of which I am sure have before owned the Ministers yea and received Baptisme and the Lords Supper at their hands by propounding a few Questions unto them 1. Quest Questions propounded to the Separatists Have you any thing against your Ministers in respect of their conversations if they be scandalous in their lives you have a way to help your selves do they not walke in some measure as becometh Christians 2 Is not their Ministry wholesome doe they not preach soundly converting and edifying truths though all have not the same gifts 3 If you can charge them with either of these have you with that respect which becomes their places dealt with them and told them of such faults have you told them once and againe yet they have refused to heare you while you have patiently waited you must do so towards a private brother before you part much more with a Minister 4 Have you called in other Ministers to hear the Case and to judge in it or are you only your own judges 5 Doe they mixe any thing in the Worship of God so as you cannot joyn with them in the worship without sinne and have you dealt with them as before 6 If there be some thing which you would have received or done have you given them convincing Arguments to prove it ought to be 7 Was the thing you desired Tanti of so great consideration that the word wil clearly bear you out for separating because you could not enjoy what you would have 8 Might not meeknesse of spirit waiting a while have won your Ministers to a yeelding in some degree to what you desired 9. Was there no Church in the Towne before you separated and entred into a Covenant together this I adde because some of these call themselves The Church and are there no visible Saints in the Towne but your selves 10. When you did separate whose counsell had you what Churches joyned with you in the act and also were present when you did joyne together to heare your Confession of Faith whether you were sound in the Faith or no I heartily wish they would give in Answers to these Questions according to the word clearly I thinke they will see themselves snared Let us in few words heare what others say concerning separation Mr. Hooker Survey Chu dis in Pref. that eminent man of God saith The faithfull Congregations in England are true Churches and therefore it is sinfull to separate from them as no Churches Mr. Norton Resp ad Apollon p. 156. c. another Congregational man acute and holy hath written upon this subject excellently If the Separatists doe understand the Latine tongue they shall finde their practises overthrowne and condemned Rejicimus Separatistas non distinguentes inter ecclesiam impuritates ecclesiae Grave crimen schismatis I wish we had a few of these Mr. Nortons in England though he be a man who stands much for the peoples
your books say otherwise and you know what both our Ancient and Moderne Divines have affirmed in this point and therefore I quote none I do not mention election to be given to the people for that hath nothing of government in it and this you give fully but if you grant me the three former heads then which way you will prove the government to be Aristocraticall the same way I shall I have spoken to this before and therefore conclude with Chamies and others the government is Aristocraticall Obj. But how can this be if the people will not consent how are they governed Answ Put case Jonathan had been indeed a great malefactor and Saul would have had him legally and justly put to death but the people would not consent to their King but rescue Jonathan shall we hence conclude ergo the government of Israel is not Monarchicall the case is the same here Now I am upon this head I shall desire to make a little digression before I proceed to any more heads Mr. Edwards in a Sermon at Colchester laid down this Thesis That there was no such tyrannicall government in any Church unlesse it were in the Church of Rome as is in the Independent Churches he proved it thus They carry all things by the suffrage of the people and if all doe not consent they will censure them how he will prove this a speciall example in the Church of Boston in New England when they excommunicated Mrs. Hutchison because her owne sonne did not joyne in the casting out of his owne mother he was likewise censured an unnaturall thing said he and so carried it that both his owne friends and other Ministers who were strangers thought he was also excommunicated as they told me when I spake with them The story doth something concerne the head I am upon and therefore I make bold to insert it here I was a little troubled at the passage knowing well how things were carried being present at that time and so tooke occasion some few weeks after to give a bare narrative how the thing was carried with so much meeknesse I am sure as none could accuse me The summe is this When all wayes according to the word had beene tryed with Mrs. Hutchison to recall her but none would prevaile the question was put to the Church to manifest consent for her excommunication her sonne and sonne-in-law one more then Mr. Edwards mentioned stood up to put some stop in the way had they sate still as any body would have expected though they had suspended their votes I know not who would have spoken one word to them Mr. Cotton rose up and gave them a grave admonition that though their naturall affection might now worke for which hee did not blame them yet he would not have them preferre their mother before Christ nor hinder their mother from that Ordinance which might bee a meanes to save her soule with these words they both sate downe they never had any other censure if this be a censure and the Church proceeded in her excommunication Now I appeale unto all to judge where was the tyranny in this act yet though I carried this with all mildnesse this was the onely cause why Mr. Edwards raked up all he could against me and put it into print even such things as never were in my thoughts But here you may see they stand not upon the suffrage of all the people Fifthly doe the Classical-men call for Synods so do the Congregational-men Mr. Cotton Keyes c. 6. Mr. Norton Respon ad Apollon p. 112. c. And certainly they are men of strange spirits who deny Synods to be usefull and no Ordinance of God I doubt he did not well consider what his pen let drop and left it to posterity That he never saw any good that came by any Synod but rather the contrary A great Clerke indeed he was but surely the man was in some passion I am sure I have knowne the contrary much good come by Synods but some of our Independents snutch up this sentence of his as if it were Apostolical This is the difference say the Congregational-men the Synod bindes directivè non juridicè the Classical will have both When I observe what both sides speak of Synods methinks this can be no such matter of difference The Classical Brethren say Lond. Vind. p. 23 All the determinations even of Nationall Synods are to be obeyed no further then they agree with the word of God and that a Synod est judex judicandus That Congregations are to examine with the judgment of discretion what is sent to them from Synods Mr. Rutherford saith Peac. plea. p. 322. The Acts of the Assembly oblige all the absents not present in all their members not because of the Authority of the Church but because of the matter which is necessary and agreeable to Gods word That people may not examine decrees of their Synods according to Gods word That people may not reason or speake in their Synods Ib. p. 246. we acknowledge no such Synods This latter needs a little fencing otherwise we should have confusion enough our Churches in New England chose out of every Church two of the ablest of the private brethren and sent them as their messengers these indeed had liberty to speake and propound doubts in the Synod but it was not left free for any body to speake that would Mr. Gillespie states a question Suppose a scandalous person would come to the Sacrament Aar rod. 477 478. the Minister knowing him to be so adviseth the Eldership to joyne with him and do their duty in keeping this person away it may be they refuse Appeale is made to higher Assemblies Classis Synod c. they it may be will judge him fit for the Sacrament this is their sentence must this Minister now obey the sentence of the Classis or Synod His determination is That the Minister being cleare in his conscience and the matter of scandal sufficiently proved he must not doe an unlawfull act in obedience to men but follow the rule 1 Tim. 5.22 Keep thy selfe pure his conscience illuminated by Gods word is a rule to him of his owne personal acting or not acting Come to the Congregational-men Mr. Cotton saith Keys p. 25 We dare not say that the power of a Synod reaches no further then the giving connsell they bind burthens they bind not onely materially but formally from the Authority of the Synod See more p. 53 54. Neither doe I see that our reverend Divines in their preface to that book do oppose Mr. Cotton for say they in laying down Mr. Cottons judgement Christ hath not furnished them only with ability to give Counsell but with a Ministeriall power and Authority to determine declare and injoyn such things as may tend to reducing such Congregations to right order and peace But is there Authority it may be my shallownesse but for the present I doe not call to mind
any power invested with Authority but if they injoyne a thing to bee done and it be refused that Authority will reach further Authoritas cogit as is the kind of the Authority Civill or Ecclesiasticall Blessed Burroughs in answering to that which some would have Iren. p. 44. scil that a Synod may formally excommunicate because by excommunication they i.e. Hereticall Churches are put out of the Kingdome of Christ into the Kingdome of Satan and this will terrifie saith consider whether this be not done before and that with an authority of Christ by those former six things mentioned in the page before for Hereticall Congregations or persons are judged and declared in a solemn Ordinance by the Officers of Christ gathered together in his name to be such as have no right to any Church Ordinance to have no Communion with any of the Churches of Christ now if this judgement be right are not such persons or Congregations put out of the Kingdome of Christ and put under the power of Satan consequently Certainly this cannot be a ground of such difference shall Non and Ex make such a stir when Non is as bad as Ex I should judge my self I am sure to be in as bad a case by the one as the other though for my part this notion of Catholike-visible-Church hath made me ready to yeeld to Synods juridicall power I could I say yeeld it and yet not differ from these reverend Divines if they follow home their non-communion close Now if you say what doth this helpe against Hereticall Congregations though you have proceeded to Non-communion they regard it not but still go on in their Heresies and leaven others to that they wil say what do they care for your excommunication if all the Hereticks in England were excommunicated they would not care but go on still Indeed our New England Divines will teach us a way how to helpe it viz. if a Synod hath declared against an Hereticall Congregation being pertinacious and so hath proceeded to non-communion they will call in the Civil power to help and so they have a way to help by their non-communion and this must be the help of them though they be excommunicated This Mr. Norton intimates Resp ad Apol. 148 Keyes 50 Iren. c. 4. Mr. Marshal relates that Zuinglius in a publick dispute did so stop the mouthes of the Anabaptist that they appearing to the Magistrates unreasonably obstinate were banish d the City Defen ag Tomb. 58. Ecclesiae appellant Magistratum in causis Ecclesiae non ad doctrinam declarandam vel disciplinam exequendam sed ad doctrinam a Cencilio declaratam vel disciplinam ab ecclesiâ applicatam sanctione Civili confirmandam The dury which Mr. Cotton sheweth to lye upon the Civill Magistrate inferres as much As also Mr. Burroughs And thus it was in New England when the Synod at which the Civill Power was present as to hear so to keep civill order had consuted and condemned the Errors and Heresies and so was broke up then a Generall Court was called which soon suppressed those Heresies and brought the Churches to peace again If the Civill power would do as much here we should soon see our Churches in better order What Civill Magistrates have done in this ease before I need not mention books are full It s true the Churches were when there was no Civill Power to defend them but oppose them but we can finde how many Heresies and Schismes they were then troubled with shall the Church be in no better case under a Christian Civill Power Nursing-Fathers then at that time 6 Doe the Classicall godly men looke upon their Congregations having visible Saints among them to be true visible Churches so doe the Congregationall men judge them also I gave instance before 7 Would then the Classical brethren have their members being such as have right to the Ordinance to partake with Congregational Churches in the Lords Supper to shew their communion certainly so they ought but why Congegationall men doe refuse godly men members of Classicall Churches not admitting them to the Lords Supper when they have desired it is very strange to me I wish our reverend Brethren would give us solid grounds for this practice for it gives offence and that justly a Preface to survey ch dis Mr. Hooker and b Iren. p. 266. Mr. Burroughs have both said they should be admitted Shal a Church be acknowledged to be a true Church where Doctrine and Worship is pure also this person a member of it a visible Saint it may be a real Saint and shall he be denyed communion 8 For Classes Pref. surv ch dis the Congregationall men say Consociation of Churches is not onely lawfull but in some cases necessary So Mr. Hooker Mr. Cotton speakes fully to this Keyes p. 54 55. weighty matters such as Election and ordination of Elders excommunication of an Elder or any person of publike note the translation of an Elder from one Church to another it is an holy Ordinance to proceed with common consultation and consent I suppose thus much might have beene obtained of the Classical-brethren that though in cases of weight as excommunication they would not have such an Ordinance carried on by one Minister but have the thing seriously examined first and debated in a Classis yet when the thing had beene concluded upon they would leave the execution of the sentence to the officer or officers of the Church where the case lyeth If so much might be obtained I should be very farre from opposing a Classis I would not willingly live without one I know of no other material point of difference as for the first subject of the power of the Keyes that is but a notion though its true much practise depends upon it yet I finde not that our Divines here would have the fraternity to be the first subject by their owning of Mr. Cotton his booke of the Keyes for Mr. Cotton makes a Church organized to bee the first subject and not the Fraternity as is apparent in divers places of that booke The summe is I wonder at our differnces well might that worthy Divine say in his letter to me from New England It s the wonderment of this side of the world that you that are godly and may agree yet will not surely the cause lyeth more in the Will then any thing else Give me leave therefore I pray to make my humble request to our Reverend Divines the Congregational-men that they would please to close in with the Classical brethren and not suffer these groundlesse differences to trouble the Churches any longer If you aske Why doe you make your request to us are we the cause why they are not bealed I cannot thinke the cause lyes onely in the Ministers nay I have heard long since there had been an agreement among the Ministers had not some others that live by divisions broken it but whether all Ministers are of the
England there are true Gospel-Ministers I put in the word many I dare venture farre here but that I would save my selfe against those whom I oppose because I am sure I shal maintaine my ground for why should I have undertaken to prove that all the Ministers in England are true Gospel-ministers and that in every Parochiall Congregation in the blinde corners of England there are such visible Saints as ought to be in the constitution of a Church enough I meane to make a Church I should have had a hard taske but by this word many I include abundance both Churches and Ministers besides our Congregationall Ministers now to my Argument The major cannot be denied for all the causes are there set downe which are required to a true Minister 1 The efficient cause God 2 Materiall cause a man sufficiently qualified I meane according to Pauls phrase 2 Tim. 2.2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the same word with 2 Cor. 2 16 who is sufficient two distinctions would cleare this latter text but I spare the reader 3 Formall cause orderly called I put in at least for substance because I would include many of the Presbyteriall men 4 Finall cause Ephes 4.12 the end of the Ministry is for the perfecting of the Saints for the worke of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ So that no rationall man can deny the major Now for the minor that there are many such Ministers in England we shall see 1 For the efficient cause there is no controversie there 2 For the materiall that they are sufficiently qualified in that sence above mentioned who can deny it many yea abundance qualified with reall grace and experimentall workings on their owne hearts besides their Ministeriall qualifications and these many others have who it may be have not the former as could be wished but I hope though some doe whisper yet they will not undertake to defend it that there can be no true Minister unlesse he have reall Grace I have heard some that have affirmed as much but they are not such as dare undertake the Question But as for Ministeriall qualifications I doe beleeve the gifts of Ministers were never larger then now since the Apostles dayes never were the truths of God more clearly layed open then now God doth seeme to give out such large measures in these dayes as it were in opposition to this wild Generation that when they are crying out there are no Ministers God confutes them by pouring out more of his Spirit in point of Ministeriall abilities upon them then before indeed where other holy men have gone before in such Parishes and places thereabouts we finde not that preaching workes now as it did when it came new to the places yet I say the gifts of Ministers now are as strong as they were before but this is one of the Ministers heavie burdens in our dayes their Trading is dead Thirdly formall cause Our Ministers abundance of them are orderly called for substance there are but two things that I know of to make up this call Election and Ordination For election many if not all of the godly Ministers are elected by the people some by the whole Parish and others by the best in the Parishes But you say the Patron presents It is true but not so as to bring one in against the consent of the people Verily for Patrons to present an unworthy Minister and bring him in against the consent especially of the godly and orthodox Christians it is an act of cruell Tyranny and worthy of a Petition to the Parliament to get such an horrible abuse removed but you have a way now to helpe your selves against scandalous Ministers by the Civill-power and should have had it by Church-power if once Discipline were set up But if the Minister be not an unworthy man though the Patron did present as in former times and he came in without the consent of the people at the first but had it afterwards this makes his election good Hear what the New England Ministers say to this point Yet sometimes the peoples acceptance and approbation afterward may supply the want of election at the first Ans to the 32. Quest p. 69. V. Ames Consc l. 4. c. 25. q. 7. as Jacobs after consent and acceptance of Leah made her to be his wife though he chose her not at the first and by this we hold the calling of many Ministers in England may be excused who at first came into their places without the consent of the people So Dr. Ames But are all these Separatists so regular I doubt not I can give instance of a Weaver who lived in a Towne where I had my abode for a little time the Minister of the place was a very able man regularly called and inclining at that time to the Congregationall way yet this Weaver I thinke that was his calling separated from him and the other Christians and had his owne society to whom he did preach as they said but when the winde did settle in the Independent quarter this Weaver had a minde to a Pulpit but I hope then he will looke to his orderly calling he will not dare to venture but by the Gospel-way that now we shall judge his way of election was this as an honest Christian of the same Towne and one of this mans friends told me that Goodman B. an honest Carrier being a Sequestrator in the Towne he puts him in and this is one part of his calling as for Ordination that is a Toy But is this regular then let these Separatists for ever hold their tongues I know not but if a Sequestrator may put a Weaver let him be a godly and a pretty man as some say he is I love not to judge other folkes godlinesse I have enough to doe at home into a Parish when as the people call him not then may a Patron put in able and godly Divines into their Parishes with the peoples consent first or last as the noble Earle of Warwick I beleeve hath helped many Parishes to as able godly Divines as any one Sequestrator hath done I could give the Reader instances of others but so much I perceive by these kinde of men that I little regard what they say for if there lye any matter of advantage in their way they will stretch their principles as far as they please As for their sufficient qualification which should make the materiall cause of a Minister we must not question them in our dayes Paul indeed said Who is sufficient for these things our language is Who is not sufficient for these things much might here be said I am privy to mine own insufficiency and desire to bewail it but let me propound one thing to these men and see how they answer it Amongst the opinions which Mrs. Hutchison had brought forth in New Eng. this was one That there was no inherent grace in a beleever no new creature nothing but Jesus Christ
proceed any further to cast them out I have heard the New England Ministers sharply censured because they have excommunicated for some errours i.e. denying of some Ordinances which are supposed to fall within the compasse of Non-fundamentals This maxime is cryed up among the Separatists For the Thesis it selfe considering into what a narrow compasse Fundamentals are pent up I thinke it to be Apocryphall Divinity and just it is with God to let in errours in Fundamentals when such Church and Truthdestructive Principles are drunke in by godly Christians yet let us bring this rule and lay it to the case in hand I hope they doe not make rules for themselves if it be a true Christian Rule it is for all Christians Here then we have men qualified by God with Ministeriall and abundance of them personal gifts they have the election or consent of the people they are separated to the worke of the Ministry by persons who were Ministers but did erroneously assume too much to themselves now grant that here is an errour yet I hope it is not in a fundamentall point Some great Divines call Ordination but an Adjunct and your selves lesse you thinke it a Toy so then if you must not be separated from a Church for errours in Non-fundamentals then neither ought you to separate from a true Church for an errour which is not fundamentall Certainly if that rule hath place any where then here you will by this rule keepe Anabaptists Anti-Sabbatarians Antinomians truly such Anti-Psalmists Arminians c. within your Churches and not cast them out but forsooth a little errour in comparison of them and that acknowledged in the Ministers that is ground sufficient to cast off them and call them Antichristians c. yet there are no conscientious men but these the Separatists Gospel will afford Rules for them but not for other Christians As you trouble the Ministers here so I doubt they will trouble you in the Ordinations of your Ministers that is to make it cleare to them that private men have power to Ordaine I have seene it my selfe when two private men have imposed their hands upon him who was to be their Pastor Another I know whom a Carpenter and a Taylor Ordained with imposition of hands I doubt the Ministers will put you hard to it to prove that this is according to the Rule yea when other Ministers but of other Churches were present these have imposed hands If we consult with the Gospel we shall finde it rather to favour a Bishop though no Lordly one by the example of Timothy and Titus from whom our Bishops proved their Superiority and sole power of Ordination to Ordaine then private men and that in the presence of divers other Ministers I am sure this will be hard to prove from Scripture I shall speake a few words to this point afterward Suppose any of the Bishops had been of that opinion that none but persons growne and making confession of their Faith ought to be Baptized and they would Baptize only by dipping would not the Anabaptists have judged this to be true Baptisme would they null this Baptisme because he was a Bishop since he was a Minister set apart to that worke c. as Austin baptized many thus after he had been in England a while who yet was an Arch-Bishop was that no true Baptisme I doe not thinke that the Anabaptists if they have any braines in their heads will deny that Baptisme were nul if that were good so is Ordination for the substance of it If there have been no true Ministers nor Ordinances nor Churches but where there hath been no humane mixtures nor wicked persons then there hath been but few Ministers Ordinances or Churches since there was a Church upon earth and if there ought to be separation from such Ministers and Churches then we should have found Separatists enough how hardly was Superstition kept out in the Church of the Jewes before the Captivity say how many yeares Alsle Chron. p. 2153. Goodw. Mo. Ar. l. 1. c. 10. Chemnitius in 10. Ioh. takes theeves there to be the Pharisees for their order was not instituted by God nor brought in by the Prophets but only a humane invention and through their owne boldnesse Afterward when Christ came were they cleare what thinke you then of corrupt Caiphas the High Priest his corrupt entring into and his continuance in the place for one yeare So the Pharisees a Generation that God never instituted their Schoole began some say two hundred and forty yeares some say more before Christ and for their Superstitious inventions they were not barren in them but did Christ so soon as he came to Preach call away the people and bid them separate here are corrupt Officers c. No we finde no such word nay he bids then heare Matth. 23. After Christ I pray tell me how long did the Churches continue without Superstitious mixtures I doubt you will finde the Church hath not been long free but we doe not finde separation presently and nulling of Ministers as now Men should doe well to give us a precept or example out of the Word where Ordinances have been dispensed true for the substance though some humane mixtures have been joyned to them that therefore they were iterated If they cannot give us a direct precept or example shew us it by a necessary consequence from Scripture I wonder men should be so forward to iterate Baptisme and Ordination as these Separatists call for without Scripturall grounds 9 There are hundreds of Ministers in England who were not Ordained by Bishops but you separate from those also they had the election of the people first then with fasting and prayer solemnly set apart to the worke by divers godly and learned Divines who were against Bishops yet these are also scorned by your selves as much as the others but forsooth because they were Ordained by Bishops and had not renounced their Ordination and taken their Ordination from you therefore that infection spreads even to all Generations Out of what I have said I may pick up some answers to this but for troubling the Reader and the truth is they are in some sence unreasonable men I deale with but this let me say it is strange that when an Ordinance is purged in it selfe and those who administer it renounce what defects have cleaved to their owne Ordination only for the substance owning it as another Ordinance may be corrupted or rather have corruptions annexed to it but not nulled by those accidentall corruptions that this infection should adhere so strongly that it cannot be mended but by nulling of it Friends this cavilling will not doe in the Day of Judgement Besides I pray give me an instance where it was ever practised that persons that were not Baptised did Ordaine a Minister If you aske me What need that question for we are Baptised therefore it doth not concerne us By whom I pray If you say by the Ministers