a conjunction the ends of Church society cannot be had which are solemn worship and mutual Edification Ans What not without a conjunction with the catholick visible Church certainly meetings for solemn worship and mutuall Edification are not terms wherein Christians hold communion with the catholick visible Church for they are proper only to particular worshiping congregations I wonder in what Assemblies do the Christians in England and the Christians in Prestor Johns country meet for solemn worship and mutual Edification I know he thinks the matter if salved by telling us that Christians meeting in any congregation in England for worship and mutual Edification do thereby hold externall communion in those things with the whole Church throughout the world But I conceive this will not serve his turn without the could equally imagine how a man by holding communion with the City of London might be said thereby to hold a civil external communion with all mankind which I think is so wild a conceit as no man yet ever asserted for he must remember he is speaking of such an external communion that is proper to a politick visible Body to the constituting of which kind of communion it is not enough to have the same laws the same customes no nor the same kind of solemn meetings for worship to speak all visible Christians to be of the same external politick communion for suppose in France they had the same laws and customs the same kind of officers as Constables Justices Parliament and a King as we have in England and all under the Government of the very same invisible God it doth not follow so long as there is no dependance of these Kingdomes each on the other that therefore the people of England are of the same external politick communion with those in France Yea further though these two Kingdoms may mutually in times of peace advise with each other for their mutual profits and in case of differences betwixt them they may forbid trading or converse with each other which is a kind of civil excommunication yet for all this they may not be said to be of the same external civil politick communion and why because their respective Magistrates are independent and have no jurisdiction over each other Upon the very same ground I deny any such thing as an external Politick Communion betwixt the Members of the Catholick Church for though they have all the same Laws the same Sacraments the same kind of solemn meetings for Worship and all under the same kind of visible Governours and all this under the same invisible Head the Lord Jesus though so far as they can and the distances of places will admit they may advise with each other for their mutual good and in case that any prove Hereticks they may so far as may be disown or refuse Communion as in the instances before said yet all this no more proves them to be of the same external Politick communion than the like agreements might speak the Kingdom of France and that of England of the same politick civil communion and why but because Christ hath left no visible politick Head to have jurisdiction over the rest If you say this notion speaks a good word for the Headship of the Pope I Answer no such matter for there is no need of such a Head nor of any such external Politick Communion in the Church no more than in the World God hath well enough Governed the World without any such Universal civil Monarch and doth as well govern the Church without any such Universal visible Head And now let us see what of force then is in his second reason which is this such a conjunction in external Communion with he Catholick visible Church is necessary else we cannot possibly partake of the priviledges that Christ hath made over to this his Church as the Remission of Sins and the Graces of the Holy Spirit I Answer He says that Christ hath made over the priviledges of pardon of sin and the Graces of his Spirit to the Church primarily and that before any particular person can partake of pardon of Sin and the Graces of the Spirit he must joyn with the Church in external Communion But how absurd is all this by Church he here means the Catholick visible Church but I wonder how it can be truly said that pardon of sin or the Graces of the Spirit can be said to be made over to the visible Church as priviledges when as it is very certain that Christ never made over such priviledges to the Church as visible But I perceive he understands it ministerially that is to say that a man is pardoned or partake of the Graces of the Spirit but by the Ministry of the Church well let this be granted what will thence follow I am sure that will not follow which you say doth follow that therefore we must first be made Members of the Church before we can be pardoned or sanctifyed by the Spirit for suppose the Church meets for solemn worship and the minister is Preaching and there comes in one or more Infidels for curiosity to see and hear I hope you will not say that these Infidels because they are in the same place with the Church that therefore they are joyned as Members with the Church suppose now these Infidels are by the Sermon convinced and perfectly converted to a true Faith in Jesus Christ I now demand These men that thus are converted do they believe without or with the Grace of the Spirit again so soon as they have believed are they pardoned or are they not I say they could not have believed without the Grace of the Spirit and that so soon as they truly believed they were pardoned and you dare not I think say the contrary Now I pray you is not this Grace of the Spirit and pardoning of sin Communicated before these men were joyned to the Church as visible Members How then can you say that men are obliged to joyn with the Church as Members else they have neither Grace nor pardon the very Truth is the primary reason of Christs institution of visible Church Membership was not for the giving of the first Grace of the Spirit or giving pardon but it was appointed as a means of conveying further degrees of Grace and clearer assurance of pardon visible Church Membership doth suppose the Grace of conversion in the adult and pardon but doth not give or Communicate it I had now done with his first Proposition but that for two inferences he draws from a consideration of the whole as first saith he therefore their position is untrue who maintain that our obligation to Church Communion ariseth from a voluntary admission of our selves into some particular congregation But I say notwithstanding all he hath said that position may be true for he hath been all this while speaking of the Universal visible Church But they that hold that position maintain it only with respect to a particular Church
SEPARATION YET NO Schisme OR NON-CONFORMISTS NO SCHISMATICKS BEING A full and Sober VINDICATION of the NON-CONFORMISTS from the Charge and Imputation of SCHISME IN Answer to a Sermon lately Preached before the Lord Mayor By J. S. Isaiah 66.5 Hear the Word of the Lord ye that tremble at his Word your Brethren that hated you that cast you out for my Names sake said Let the Lord be glorified but he shall appear to your joy and they shall be ashamed London Printed in the year 1675. To the Reader Reader IF thou wouldst have a reason of publishing these sheets the Author will tell thee That it is now about four years since the People he pleads for among whom he believes there are thousands in the Land that are Worshippers of God in Spirit and Truth according to the Gospel have through the good Providence of their great Shepherd the Lord Jesus Christ and through the granted license of an indulgent Prince enjoyed a sweet and blessed Calm But observing lately the Clouds again to gather and to have begun to discharge themselves upon many of this People about England and withal lately meeting with a Sermon wherein this People are not sparingly charged with Schism and the penalties where with the laws threaten them are pleaded for as very innocent harmless things that Sober men as he says may be ashamed to call persecutions I could not but thence conclude that the Authors drift was to stir up and encourage the chief Magistrates of the City for to them the Sermon was preached to a rigorous Execution of those gentle punishments which are but such little things as banishing or imprisoning or spoyling them of their Goods and so undoing them and their Families which are very trifles in his account Now what can probably be the consequents hereof except the Magistrates as David prove wiser than their Teachers but that this people must needs be smitten impoverished scattered and as to their outward concernments ruined But if this shall come to passe and who knows what their God may permit for a time for their tryal what will they have left to support and comfort them under such pressures except the innocency of their Consciences and the Righteousness of the cause for which they suffer And this I say whether their cause be good or bad doth not as to the determination depend upon the meer dictates of any Mortals and I am very verily perswaded it is not prsedtsdih be bad by all this Author hath said although he ha oved to cour and reasoned against it as if in his conceit he had spoke nothing but demonstrations which I should now have immediately begun to reply to but that I thought it most expedient first to give the Reader a view of the case and cause of the Non-conformists for which they are charged of Schism and are thought to have deserved all those severities which the law threatens The Non-Conformists case is this There are some hundreds of true Ministers of Jesus Christ commissioned by him to Preach the Gospel and to administer the Sacraments for so all true Ministers are those according to their commission do Preach and there are many thousands likewise of visible professors of Christianity do willingly hear and joyn with these Ministers in the Worship of God and in a participation of Sacraments as the Gospel requires These meet in dictinct Congregations separate from the legally established Congregations in the Land with whom they Will not because they Cannot hold Communion Because they thus separate and refuse Communion they are charged with Schisme The reason why they thus separate and refuse Communion is because they cannot have it with them I say they Cannot have it because they cannot or ought not to sin or to speak modestly because they cannot do such things which they extreamly suspect to be sinful and if they do but strongly suspect them it is enough for no man can be bound to act against a doubting Conscience and herein I have the suffrage of the Apostle which every good Christian ought much to preferre before any other who may presume to Philosophize to the contrary who says Rom. 14. he that doubteth is damned if he eat because he eateth not of Faith for whatsoeover is not of Faith is sin If it be demanded what those things are which this people suspect as sinful It may be answered they are too well known as that any among us should stand in need of an information but briefly those that are Ministers either they suspect the sinfulness of admitting a re-ordination or of abjuring or of assenting and consenting to the use of all and every part of the Liturgy and therein of every Ceremony Now this I say though the Friends of these impositions shall with the highest confidence affirm the lawfulness of them all yea and endeavour with a thousand arguments to prove them such yet if those Ministers herein concerned upon a serious weighing of these arguments find them too light and after much prayer to God for a resolution yet find themselves to doubt in this case they ought not upon the Apostles rule now named to yeild to any such impositions against their doubting Consciences If it be here replyed why do they not then degrade themselves or quietly suffer themselves to be degraded of their Ministry and in the condition of private Christians Communicate with this Church for so they may do and free themselves from these impositions It will be answered that this is an imposition they suspect as sinful as the rest for so long as they are perswaded that their mission is originally from Christ they cannot believe that it is either in their own Power or in the Power of any other Inferiour to Christ to give them a discharge from executing this their Office except it be for Heresie or obstinate scandal against some known laws of Christ and then indeed Christ hath left an order not only for excluding them from their Office but also from the Church but neither of these latter are in the least pretended and therefore it is they cannot without suspicion of sin either degrad themselves or quietly suffer themselves to be degraded And still I adde if any reasons be urged for the lawfulness of this degradation but such that are short of their conviction so that still they doubt it will continue yet their duty to serve the Church as Ministers and not to list themselves among private Christians as is advised If it be asked but may not supream Magistrates if they cannot divest Ministers of their Office may not they within their Dominion suspend some of them from the exercise thereof when they conceive it is for the Peace of the rest It will be answered that that Lord of Lords who giveth the Office and the Commission and hath by divers Providences designed the men thereto hath certainly with the Office designed them to the exercise thereof for else verily the Office is in vain and hath
therein placed not only the Office but the exercise thereof above the restraint of any Powers whatever that hold of and under him on Earth so long as the exercise thereof continue to be regulated by the laws of Christ But if any men on Earth shall appoint new Laws different from those of Christs and impose them on Ministers as conditions to be obeyed without which they will restrain them the exercise of their Ministry as being disturbers of the Peace in such a case it is evident that such Ministers may continue to Preach according to the Laws of Christ but are restrained only by the Laws of men whil'st then their Consciences lye under a superior obligation to Preach than that by which they are restrained from Preaching it is casie to conceive what they will or ought to do i. e. whether they will or ought to Obey God or man If it be said such Ministers are mistaken about the nature of such imposed Laws as if they were different from or contrary to the Laws of Christ when they are no other but what Christ hath intrusted them with a Power of appointing for the Peace of his Church It will be still answered that this People are perswaded of the contrary and that Christ hath not intrusted any men with such a Power but do believe that they are things rather destructive of the true Peace of the Church And this I say whil'st they are so perswaded though they should be mistaken they ought not to go against their Consciences for as the Apostle saith he that doubteth and eateth is damned So that from the whole it is evident the reason why these Ministers cannot conform and why they yet continue to Preach is because they cannot do the one nor forbear the other without sin which is a just ground of their separation and of persevering in the exercise of their Ministry and therefore separation in this case as to them is no Schism Some will be ready to say but what is all this to the common People they are Schismaticks without doubt for they have no such impositions upon them It may be answered that if the Ministers now named are yet true ministers of Jesus Christ and that the exercise of their ministry hath not been according to any Law of Christ restrained it will follow it can be no sin in the Disciples of Christ to own them whom their Lord owneth or to hear them whom their Lord hath commissioned to that end and by no Law of his are restrained from acting according to that Commission Again in as much as Christ is supposed to continue his Commission to these ministers to Preach it necessarily follows that Christ hath a People to whom he sends them for it 's absurd to conceive that Christ should send his ministers to preach to no body if then they may preach it cannot be unlawful for the people to hear them no nor to partake of any ordinance from them which as ministers they may administer Yet again multitudes of the people did own them as Christs ministers and did joyn with them in all Ordinances as such and this for several years together and certainly during those times they could not be esteemed Schismaticks for so doing since there were no other ministers ordinarily to be found If then they were no Schismaticks how come they to be so since if it be said the Law of the Land makes them such it may be answered that since Schisme of which we speak is a sin peculiar and proper to a Church it is a wonder how a Law of a Land that is perfectly extraneous to a Church can make that at one time a Schisme which at another time cannot be said to be such Nor do I think that those that now think themselves the Church and that all that separate from them are Schismaticks in case they had a Law of the Land to establish Presbytery or Independency or Anabaptistry would conceive of themselves as Schismaticks if they continued in that way they are in and refused to hold Communion with that the Law established and in Truth I cannot possibly conceive how that may be said justly to day that it is no Schisme and yet to morrow it may be justly called so meerly because of an intervening humane Law Lastly as for the people it may be further answered that though they be not under the same impositions as their ministers are yet they are not altogether free from impositions which they extreamly suspect as sinful as that they cannot enjoy Baptism for their Children without the Crosse nor receive the Lords Supper without kneeling to name no more If you say these are not sinful it is answered suppose they be not yet in case they suspect them vehemently as such and all your arguments cannot resolve their doubts it is evident they would go against and wound their Consciences in case they should submit to the one or the other If therefore these people shall for these reasons joyn with those ministers in all Ordinances I see no ground to charge this people with Schisme no more than their ministers Thus having with as much brevity as I could stated the case and cause of this people we shall now come to take an account of Mr. J. S. his Sermon before the Mayor which contains an impeachment of Schism and a pretended proof thereof against this people They are now upon their tryal and say not guilty and offer themselvs to be tryed by the Laws of Jesus Christ which are the only Laws of his Church The Sermon of Mr. J. S. Examined THE design of that Sermon one would be apt to think was to promote Peace among the Protestant professors in England whose differences are Universally acknowledged to be about matters of no fundamental concernment as to the Doctrine of Christianity His text Rom. 14.19 was well suited to that purpose Let us follow after the things which make for Peace And doubtlesse if he had prosecuted this his design by the same means and methods as the Apostle there doth viz. not so much by setting himself to resolve their controversies or to determine which side held the truest opinion as to silence their disputes and to allay their bitternesses to each other by shewing that they had nothing to do to judge or censure their brethren because they were Gods Servants and to him only they stood or fell and rather for Peace sake to forbear doing that which they might lawfully do than by any undue use of their liberty to cast a stumbling block before the weak uninstructed dissenters This he confesseth pag. 1.2 was the way the Apostle took and certainly if he had followed so great an example he had like a man of Wisdom as well as of Peace prosecuted an excellent end by most excellent means but instead thereof he takes a quite contrary method for instead of perswading Christians to lay aside their Controversies he himself raiseth them instead of disswading them
and I hope there is no contradiction for one that believes and is Baptized to be nessarily a Member of the Universal Church and yet to be voluntarily a Member either of particular Worshiping Congregation either in England or Holland His second deduction is as wild for saith he hence we may see how extravagantly they discourse that talk of Chrstianity at large without relation to a Church or Communion with a Society This I say is strangely inferred as if we could not discourse of men as men without relation to Cities or Kingdoms and certainly we may with a very good reason sometimes discourse of Christians as Christians without relation to any Church whether particular or Universal and this without any extravagancy His second Proposition That every one is bound to joyn in Communion with the established national Church to which he belongs supposing there be nothing in the Terms of its Communion that renders it unlawful for him so to do This he saith is plain because external Communion cannot be had with the Catholick Church but by externally Communionicating with some part of it To this I have already answered that there is no such thing as an external Politick Communion to be had with the Catholick Church neither immediately which himself confesseth no nor mediately by Communicating with some part of it as I conceive I have made evident in my answer to the former Proposition But in case any such Communion could be had immediately or mediately yet I would have it remembred that this sort of Communion is not to be sought by every Christian upon the very account of his being so but upon the account of his being a visible professing Christian And how let us come to some Issue we will grant you that every Christian considered as visible ought to endeavour to joyn with some part of the Catholick visible Church for publick Worship and the edification of himself and others but why this particular Church must be national I do not understand I am sure there is no need it should be national for I do as truly declare my self to be a visible Member of the Catholick visible Church by joyning in external Communion with one single visisible Congregation as if I was united a Member to a National Church But in very Truth I do much doubt whether any such thing is to be had as an external Communion with a National Church any more than with the Catholick visible Church for you place the Acts of external Communion to consist in meeting together in solemn worship and in mutual Edification Now I would fain know where any Nation of Christians do meet together for solemn Worship true if you could find any Nation of Christians that did often meet at one place to Worship God and to rejoyce before the Lord together as the Tribes of Israel used to do when they came up to Jerusalem to keep the Feasts of the Lord I should not stick to call such a National Church united external Communion but to speak of a joyning with a National Church of Christians in external Communion where Millions of the Members of the supposed National Church never perhaps came nigh one the other for scores of Miles especially so as to Hear or Pray or receive the Supper together or to Edifie each other is to talk without any solid ground If you say but if we joyn with any one Worshipping Congregation in external Communion we do thereby joyn with the whole Nation of Christians in external Communion If you say so I think you say more than you can prove for I do not understand that because I Worship God with a Congregation in London that therefore I Worship God with a Congregation at York True by my Worshipping at London I do declare my self to be of the same Faith with those that Worship at York and I am therefore bound to account of them as my brethren and so to love and Pray for them as such by which means an internal Communion is maintained as among Members that are supposed and hoped to be united to Christ but yet I am to seek how this external Communion can be had when perhaps we shall never see each other as long as we live If you say that all the Christians in a Nation may hold an external Communion in being all under one Discipline the management whereof being deposited in the hands of one visible Head as was the High Priest to the Church of the Jews This indeed were something if it could be proved that Jesus Christ did ever appoint such an Officer for the Government of all his Disciples in each Nation but if it be made to appear that all Ministers or Pastors of particular Worshiping Congregations have equal Power to Govern their respective Churches and that they have no Power of jurisdiction one over another and that there is no instituted Officers appointed by Christ Superior to them with any Power of jurisdiction over them Then I say there can be no such external Communion of all Christians in a Nation under the jurisdiction of any such High Priest and that therefore there is no such thing as a National Church of Christians wherewith an external communion can be held You know well who they are that are for an equality of Pastoral Power Many more things may be said of this matter but I shall at present wave them and proceed to consider what he further saith He hath already said that every Christian ought to joyn in external Communion with a National Church that thereby he might hold Communion with the Catholick But presently he starts an Objection But it may be said that there may be several distinct Churches in the place where we live there may be the fixed regular Assemblies of the National Church and there may be separate Congregations both which are or pretend to be parts of the Catholick Church so that it may be all one as to our Communicating with that which of these we joyn with supposing we joyn but with one of them and consequently there is no necessity from that principle that we should hold Communion with the Assemblies of the National Church So far he Answ Very good now let us see how he answers it which part of the Argument in the Objection doth he deny doth he deny such separate Congregations to be parts of the Catholick Church or doth he deny that in joyning with any part of the Catholick Church we thereby joyn with the whole he denies neither Then I say he grants the whole for these two being granted the conclusion follows that they who joyn with those separate Congregations do thereby preserve the Catholick Union and therefore there is no need of joyning with a National Church to attain the end proposed What saith he now He seems not to deny this but tells us that notwithstanding if we separate or refuse Communion with them that we do not preserve the Vnity of the Body so far as in
High Priest and that the great body of the Nation should meet by his command at one place as the Jews at the Temple of Jerusalem for publick Worship then I confesse he will have some colour for asserting of National Christian Churches and of a National Membership therein but till then I shall take the boldness to deny that any Christian is capable of any such National Church Membership But if he doth here mean by Church a particular Worshiping Congregation such are the parochial Churches of England and such are the Congregations of Non-conformists then we shall consider what he further saith which is this That no Christians can have just cause of withdrawing Communion from the Church whereof they are Members if we should understand it indifferently of Non-conformists Churches as parochial the meaning would be that no Member that either is joyn'd to the one or the other have just cause to withdraw Communion from either of them but when c. If you say that the parochial Churches are the true regular Churches because established by the Law of the Land and all other are Schismaticall I answer this is sooner said than proved for did the regularity or Schismaticalnesse of a Church depend on such an externall fickle consideration as the Law of the Land then might one and the same Church be Regular or Schismatical as often as the wind of the Legislative power might chance to Change so that an Act of Parliament that makes the Episcopal Churches regular to day the very same Churches by a change of an Act might be made Schismatical to morrow and so if the Legislative Power pleased both Episcopal Independant Presbyterian Anabaptistical Churches may be regular and Schismatical in their turns Lastly when you say no Communion may justly be with drawn from but when it cannot be continued without the Commission of sin here again I desire to know whether by sin you mean such that may be evidenced to be such to the conviction of the imposers or only such that is evidenced to the conviction of the Consciences of those that withdraw you cannot in reareason require the first except you will run y our selves upon these straits either to turn Papists or undertake to convince the Papists that the reason why you came off from them and their Worship was because you could not Communicate with them therein without sin we know you tell them so and give yours reasons why you say so but notwithstanding all you say they are not convinced but yet persist to call you Schismaticks But what then are you moved with their censure no for if your reasons will not convince them yet they satisfie your own Consciences and therein you rest and so you may very reasonably do I desire now but the like equity for the Non-conformists and that is that if they have reasons sufficient to convince their own Consciences that the things imposed are sinful though their reasons convince not their imposers that you would give them that liberty of Acquiescing therein as you take in bearing up your selves against the Censures of the Papists But yet further What though the things Imposed be not clearly evidenced to their own Consciences but onely so far as to leave them under strong suspitions that they are sinfull it is sufficient to justifie their withdrawing for what if the things Imposed on the Non-conformists were such as they might as lawfully do or practise as the Christian Jews might have eaten of the once-forbidden meats yet so long as their doubts remain if they should so practise they would sin as the Jews would have done if they had eaten so long as their scruple remained And so that unquestionable Casuist the Apostle determines in the case Rom. 14 14. For I know and am perswaded by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean in it self yet to him who thinks any thing unclean to him it is unclean So again He that doubteth and eateth is Damned And if it were not to light up Candles while the Sun shines I would tell you that a meer suspition of a sin is a sufficient ground for withdrawing Communion in the Judgments of other very great men So says that universally admired man Mr. Hales of Schisme pag. 8. says he In these Schismes which concern Fact nothing can be a just cause of refusing Communion but onely to require the execution of some unlawful or suspected Act. For not only in Reason but in Religion too that maxime admits of no release Cautissimi cujusque preceptum quod dubitas nefeceris To load saith he our publick Formes with private phantasies upon which we differ is the most Soveraign way to perpetuate Schisme unto the Worlds end Prayer Confession Thanksgiving Reading the Scriptures in the plainest and simplest manner were matter enough to furnish out a sufficient Liturgy though nothing either of private opinion or of Church Pomp of Garments or prescribed Gestures of Imagery of Musick or of many other Superfluities which creep into the Church under the name of Order and Decency did interpose it self To charge Churches and Liturgies with things unnecessary was the first beginning of all Superstition and when scruple of Conscience began to be made or pretended there Schisme began to break in he goes on If the spiritual Guides of the Church would be a little spareing of incumbering Churches with superfluities c. there would be far lesse Cause of Schisme or Superstition and all the inconveniences were likely to ensue would be but this they should in so doing yeild a little to the imbecillity of their Inferiours a thing which St. Paul would never have refused to do Mean while I pray mark this wheresoever false or suspected opinions are made a piece of Church Liturgie he that separates is not the Schismatick for it is alike unlawfull to make a profession of known or suspected falsehood as to put in practice unlawful or suspected actions And of this mind is Dr. Stilling fleet a Person no whit inferior to the other whose words are these in his Iren. p. 117. Where any Church retaining purity of Doctrine doth require the owning of and conforming to any unlawful or suspected practice men may lawfully deny Conformity to and Communion with that Church in such things without incurring the guilt of Schisme which because I know it may meet with some opposition from those men who will sooner call men Schismaticks than prove them so I shall offer this reason for it to consideration if our separation from the Church of Rome was therefore lawfull because she required unlawfull things as conditions of her Communion then wherever such things are required of any Church Non-communion with that Church in those things will be lawfull too and where non-communion is Lawfull there can be no Schisme in it If it be said here that the Popes power was a usurpation which is not in Lawfull Governours of Churches it is soon replyed that the Popes usurpation mainly lies in imposing
of England not scruple to professe that he would for Peace sake use all the Popish Ceremonies of Cream and Spittle in Baptisme as well as the sign of the Cross provided his Rulers did impose them but so as that he was left to his liberty is not to use them to the Popish Superstitious ends But why such an one may not upon the same pretence of peace practice most if not all of the Ceremonies and Gestures pertaining to the Mass granting him the liberty of a mentall abstraction of them from their Superstitious and Idolatrous ones I cannot yet understand and what wonder is it if there be of such perswasions among you when it is evident that there are not a few of your Church whose Ambition it seems to be to run as nigh to the Romish Rights as they may be suffered not only in adoring by bowing of the knee in the act of receiving of the Supper but in erecting the Communion Table in the form of an Altar and not only in bowing towards it but being ready to kiss the very steps that lead up to it But if this were your mind I can prove the contrary But I know he will say all this is nothing to our present case for there are no such errours or idolatrous Practices in the Church of England and therefore cannot be pleaded as a cause of our separation I Answer It is very difficult to know what the Church of England is and how they shall we be able to understand what are the Truths or Errours she maintaineth or what are her Practices If you should take it to consist of all the Christians in England whether Ministers or People so the Church of England would Comprehend all Non-conformists Churches as well as others If you take it for such Christians only who are of the Faith in Doctrinals with those that hold with the 39. Articles here the Non-conformists come in for a share also who are of your Faith therein excepting those which respect Discipline Ceremonies But if you will take in and own such Christians in England to be only of your Church that agree with you in Ceremonies and a certain form of Service and Discipline which Christ never Commanded and without which many of Christs Churches have and do subsist and flourish to say no more I wonder then by what Gospell Rule you presume to constitute a Church only of such as exclusive of all others however sound in Faith and unblameable in life Or shall we take your Church only to consist of its officers how shall we then Judge of your Faith and Doctrinals when so many of your Ministers are so contrary one to another Some are for the doctrine of Predestination and others against it some are for Justification by Imputed righteousness others not some for a difference betwixt Grace and Morality others oppose it Some for the divine right of Episcopacy others that the Magistrate may appoint what form of government he pleases in a word some write or approve of such a book that others of you think as I have heard fit to be burnt Which of these shall we understand to be your Church If those only that meet by authority in your Consistory to advise of what is fit for the rest to believe and Practise What then becomes of the Church when that Consistory is dissolved and sent home But what if a Consistory concludes of the 39. Articles and the Preachers when all is done preach the quite contrary in several weighty points As it is conceived many of yours do and these are not only tollerated but encouraged by preferments consequently owned by your selves but you have a salve for all this for you tell us let some and why not many or most preach Doctrines contrary thereto yet your Church is very sound in Doctrine so long as the XXXIX Articles remain to be her Doctrine But I wonder how these Articles may be called your Doctrines if but for fear your Ministers or People shall believe them according to the true intent and meaning of the Compilers But in the mean time what a sad Condition must the poor People be in when such corrupt Teachers shall be imposed on them if they are bound for fear of Schisme to sit under their corrupt Doctrines to the endangering of their Faith and consequently of their Salvation yea though they be errours contrary to the Doctrine of your own Church If you say the people have liberty in this case of complaining I Answer but to what purpose when such errours are publickly profest in Printed Books and no course taken for the correcting or ejecting of the Authors which shall hold their places with encouragements If you say they may then withdraw and joyn with other Pastors provided they be of the same Church of England I Answer then what is become of your propositions that errors only tollerated are no just ground for separation If you say they may be just ground of separation from a particular Congregation but not from a National Church I Answer but what if the whole National Church should beguilty of the same or like errours what is it a just ground Then to withdraw if you say no I demand for what reason I can not think of any except these two that to separate from a Particular so we joyn with another of the same National Church doth not run us upon the same danger as if we separated from the whole for the latter leaves us destitute of all publick advantages to our selves which the other doth not Beside the publick honouring of God in his Worship which is every Christians Duty would be neglected My further reply is this that if the honouring of God in publick and my Souls safety are the only reasons that are to sway in this matter then in the pertaking with Churches though Non-conformists where both these may be obtained the separation will be lawful and consequently it will be lawful to separate from a Church upon the only cause of its having corrupt Doctrines in it tollerated though not imposed If you say there is a law of the Land that makes it unlawful to joyn with a Church separate from the National I answer then the question will be only this whether the Law of a Land or the security of my Faith and consequently my Salvation ought more to be regarded which I think is very easy to determine From what hath been said it is evident that some sort of errors in a Church though but tollerated may be a just ground of withdrawing though I do not charge the Church of England with any such errors nor had I ground provided her Ministers did honestly believe those Articles that they have professed to believe which as is conceived several of them do not So that what as to this point I have said is pleadable only by such private Christians whose lot it is to fall under the Teaching of such Conformists who are such Non-conformists to
the Doctrines of the Church of England as that they dare deride some sober Christians under the notion of being acquainted with the Person of Christ or that dare Teach there is no difference betwixt Grace and Morality or that there is no special Grace exerted in the conversion of a sinner or that the Holy Ghost is of no further use in the Conversion of men than as he first inspired those that delivered the Doctrine of Christianity in Scriptures and inabled such to confirm the Truth of it with Miracles so that men are left in the working out of their Salvation to their Bibles and the use of their natural Faculties exclusive of any other operation of the Spirit either to their illumination or sanctification I say if the People withdraw from such Teachers or Congregations where such Doctrines are owned for securing their Faith or Salvation there so doing is justifiable because the law-of self preservation is to be regarded before any positive law of visible Church Union and I hope there is no true Son of the Church that hath any zeal for the purity of their Church Doctrine will be my adversary herein and thus much shall suffice to be said concerning your Doctrines and of the lawfulness of separating from some of the particular Congregations in case the Teachers do grossely pervert Some of the weighty Doctrines of your own Church We shall in the next place consider what you have here offered as to corrupt practices which you say is no just ground if only tollerated but not imposed of withdrawing especially if they be no worse than are found in the Church of England I Answer first if all the corrupt practices in your Church were only tollerated but not imposed you would have much more reason of your side against us than you have because several things which you enjoyn to be practised we in our Consciences believe to be unlawful and we cannot must not have Communion with you except we comply therein so that should it be yielded that unimposed corruption in a Church is no just ground of separation yet is it of no force against us because some of these we conceive to be corruptions are imposed But to come close to the case as it stands related to this Proposition suppose no imposition of any of those things that are in controversie between us which is the supposition in the Proposition what will follow but first that all the Ministers of Christ in England would be capable of places for they are Impositions that are the principal reasons why they are kept out Secondly it would follow that those that are for the use of the Liturgy and Ceremonies and a promiscuous Communion withall that had but the name of Christians in the Sacraments might therein act according as they saw fit and as for other Ministers they might freely exercise their Ministry without Liturgy or Ceremonies and might exercise Discipline toward their rerespective Members according to Christ's direction in the case The question now arising can be only this whether it would be lawful for a Member of that Congregation where the Liturgy and Ceremonies are in use and Discipline neglected that conceived these things to be corruptions to separate and joyn with another free from these conceived corruptions I say he might first because were ther is no imposition ther can be no law of Superiors binding him to a Communion with such a conceived corrupt Church so that your great reason ordinarily produced in this case would be of no force here Secondly because that it is much safer for his soul to be joyned to a pure Church than a corrupt and self preservation is founded on a law Superior to that of visible Church-Union to this or that particular Church David might eat of the Shew-Bread to save his life which had not been lawful if positive laws were not to give place to natural Thus have I examined the third position both generally and as it particularly respecteth our present differences and shewn both its unsoundness in the former and impertinency as to the latter I have onely one word to say to the Reason given upon which the supposed Truth thereof is founded and so shall dismisse it The reason why he says that Errors in a Church as to matter of Doctrine and corruptions as to matter of practice if but suffered and not imposed is on just ground for separation because these things are not sins in us so long as we do not joyn with the Church therein I Answer if he mean that other mens Errors or Corruptions are not properly or formally mine by being in their Company and joyned with them in things lawful I grant it But yet it follows not that therefore I may joyn with them if I can otherways help it a man may buy and sell and eat and drink with Fornicators or other unclean and Debauched Creatures if he cannot trade and get provision for his body but in their Company But certainly if a Trade might be as well managed with sober men and that Meat may be had in better Company it would be sinful then to Trade and Eat with such and why because the law of self preservation warranteth me in the former but not in the latter I may not neglect the preservation of my life by eating nor geting a lively hood by trading which is ordinarily necessary to the preservation of my life present being A meer occasion of hardning others in sin or scandalizing weak Brethren but when no such necessity doth lye on me then the preventing of a scandal or giving occasion to the hardning others in the their sin and the safety of my self from their contagion are reasons of force to bind me from such Societies In like manner if the Word of God could be no where heard or Communion in Sacraments no where enjoyed but only in such Churches that were so corrupt as yours is conceived to be it might be Lawfull yea and a Duty to joyn with you so far as possibly Christians could without sin But if other Churches may be had which are regular according to Gods law and only irregular according to mans then it is a Duty to withdraw to prevent scandals and hardning a Church in its Corruptions together with the preservation of themselves from the danger of being infected with those Corruption which are reasons of another nature than that only one which you give for though as I said by joying with such I make not their sins formally mine yet I sin therein upon other accounts now named which may justifie my withdrawing I come now to his fourth which is this That the enjoying of a more profitable Ministry or living under a more pure Discipline in an other Church is no just Cause of forsaking the Communion of that whereof we are members Because we are not to commit the least Crime for the attaining of the greatest good in the World now it is a Crime to for sake
withdraw Communion from them But if it shall so fall out that the Governours of a Church and a great body of the People be so erroneous and this sufficiently known and though reproved yet they abidè obstinate maintainers thereof I say in this Case it is sufficient ground for sound Members to withdraw and save themselves from so dangerous a Society and why because I may not lawfully joyn with such a Church where possibly I may every time I joyn the Lord Christ and the Holy Ghost Blaspheme whose Deity is denied by these Sects nor may I joyn lest I indanger my Faith for evill words do not only Corrupt good manners but have a direct tendency to corrupt a sound Faith and certainly the safety of a Soul is of greater worth than the preservation of a Corrupt Peace or Unity of a Corrupt Church And what I have said upon a supposition of such grosse errours in the Rulers and many of the people of a Church the same may be said of either Idolaters or grosly profane practices for if Ministers or many of the Members should degenerate to a Popish Idolatry or should prove Common Drunkards or Whore-mongers or Opposers c. and being admonished thereof should deride the admonition as Precise and fanatical or if the Members only were Commonly so and the Rulers wittingly Connive thereat and seek not their Cure by Reproofs and Censures as Christ hath commanded in such cases I say again it is a sufficient ground for the sound Members to withdraw especially if a more pure Church may be had yea though neither these errours or practices are imposed and that first lest under the pretence of Peace they should be guilty of the greatest uncharitablenesse and that is the hardning and incouraging them in their abominable Impieties Again because the sound ought by the law of God and Nature to provide for their own safety Certainly if there be a Contagion in evill words to corrupt good manners there is much more in wicked Practices and therefore they cannot but be in apparent danger by Communicating with such and certainly in so doing there is nothing done contrary to the Fundamental reason of Christs Instituting discipline in his Church which as I conceive was for the Cure of the unsound and for the preservation of the sound from the infection of the unsound Now if no care be taken for the cure of the same but that infectious Crew is kept in the Church to the palpable endangering of the sound it is apparent that the Foundations of discipline are rooted up and in effect there is no discipline at all and that therefore every good Christian may seek his safety as he can since he cannot obtain it in a Church by the means of the Gospel Discipline which through the Corruption of the Rulers and the swaying part of the Corrupt Members is made void But no more of this till by and by when I shall have a fresh occasion to speak further to this point At present let us again return to inquire into a full sence of his Proposition if by any means we can find it out You say in generall terms without any Limitation that errors in Doctrine and Corruptions in practice when found in a Church but not imposed is no just ground of separation I Answer Methinks by this generall way of Expressing your self that you are not afraid of your Readers understanding this Proposition without any Limitation I pray tell me what if Socinian or Popish Errours and Corrupt practices were got into the Rulers of a Church and a great body of the People and that they should only tollerate them but not impose them on any what hinders if what you here say be true but that every sound Christian may yea and ought to Communicate with such a Church especially if Providence had cast him into such a place where no other could be had so that one of a Protestant Faith might lawfully joyn with a Popish Church not only in hearing their Friars Preach but likewise in receiving the Mass of them provided they would 〈…〉 him to profess their Errors or to Practise the Superâ—… 〈◊〉 Idolatry in the Mass but permit him to receive it in both 〈◊〉 in his own sence though he knows the Priest delivers 〈…〉 the rest of the Communicants receive it in the Popish sence I would not be so unmerciful to charge you as holding this but this I say that so much seems to follow Clearly from this your Position if taken without any Limitation and I can discern none in this Paragraph If you say that there is enough said by you pag. 22. concerning the Popish Church to clear you in this particular I Answer It is true you say there that the great and general Corruption of the Church of Rome both in Doctrine and Practice doth endanger the Salvation of such as Communicate with her and that therefore a totall separation from her and an erection of new Churches may be Lawfull I say notwithstanding all this yet I doubt whether you there mean that her Errors and Corruptions in themselves or of their own nature do so far endanger mens Salvation that though they were not imposed yet we were bound to a totall separation or do you mean they therefore so endanger our Salvation because imposed as to warrant such a separation If your Proposition there may be understood in the sormer sence then what you say here taken universally must needs be false for if the very being of some sorts of Errors and Corruptions in a Church though not imposed are so dangerous as to warrant a separation how can it then be universally true as you seem here to assert that Errours in Doctrine and Corruptions in Practice so long as they are only suffered but not imposed cannot be a sufficient Cause of separation but if you are there to be understood in the latter sence that is to say that the Errours and Corruptions of the Church of Rome only as imposed are so dangerous to mens salvation as to warrant a separation then that which I even now suggested is true that Christians may Lawfully here be Baptized go to Mass with the Church of Rome Provided they were not forced to make a Profession of believing their Errors or had leave to receive those Sacraments with all the Superstitions thereto belonging in their own sence though it was well known that they administred them in an other I will not at present as aforesaid charge this opinion upon the Author though it seems to be a consequence rightly inferred from this and other principles of his in this discourse because he saith pag. 31. A man may believe a proposition and not believe all that follows from it So that at no hand are we to charge such Consequences upon him unless he doth explicitly own them but whether you will explicitly own them or no I am not certain Yet this I know that I have heard a Minister of the Church