worship God acceptably and so most according to his word unlesse to insinâ—…ate and to cast an aspersion upon all others they had so and so and they were engaged by Education and otherwise a fine Râ—…hetoricall way of casting blemishes upon all others and freeing your selves as much as in plaine English to say That State-ends politicall interests preferments and worldly respects ingagements by Education and such like with the streame of publike interest might beare all others down that they should not find out the truth but you alas good men so fâ—…e from having any thing to doe in this world or regarding worldly preferments or hanging upon great persons that you must needs find out the truth But as you would bring Education in and conversing with the Reformed Churches as the by as to draw many to the Presbyteriall way So let me tell you though you were noâ—… engaged any way to the Reformed Churches of Europe yet you were many wayes to the Reformed Churches of new-New-England and to some prime mâ—…n in New-England by a high admiration of them One of you more especially was so eâ—…aged in his high thoughts of one of the Ministers of New-England by whom also I am sure he was first taken off the darke part that he hath said there was not such another man in the world againe Which Minister after his going into New-England and falling into the Church-way there and sending over Letters into England about the New-way presently after these Letters began the falling off and questioning Communion in our Churches and before these Letters were sent into England and the coppies of them communicated to divers I never by discourse with any of you nor from others heard that you were fallen into the Church-way As for your consulting with reverence what the Reformed Churches held forth both in their writings and practice that could be no long time as appeares by what I have before prooved and besides the short time you tooke to consult of Church-government and worship after your landing in Holland there are many passages in this Apologie shew no great reverence towards them and if a man should guesse of your reverence to the Churches of Scotland and France by many of your way both Ministers and people what they speake of Presbyteriall government and of those Churches he would conclude it were very little But these good words of the Reformed Churches are to make way for a back-blow to those Churches and to get some advantage still to your own way namely that you could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and government their intentions being most spent upon the Reformation in Doctrine c. And why may not I suppose the same thing of Mr Goodwin Mr Nye and the rest of you that you may not see into all things about worship and government for if they might not then much more not you they excelling you in piety learning sufferings yeares But suppose the Reformed Churches at first might not yet considering that it is now above fourescore yeares since government and worship was purged as well as Reformation in Doctrine which you say was so well setled at first and since so many questions and controversies having risen about Worship and Government in their Churches and ours as about Morelius and about the Anabaptists and Brownists and of late the Independents and these differences having been debated in Synods and Assemblies having heard and seen all they could say against Presbyteriall government and what could be said for themselves if either they or you had the truth on your sides what reason can you give why they should not see into it upon so much enquity study and dispute the Reformed Churches being more free to entertaine truths and change somewhat in their Discipline then you were in your first entertaining this New-way For example The Churches of France living under persecution for their Religion and the truth of God if your way had any truth in it it were all one for matter of persecution to receive yours as their own As to that passage in this Section concerning the good old non-conformists that you say We had the advantage of all that light which their conflicts struck forth in their times c I answer a great part of their light as in Mr Cartwright Mr Hildersham c. was against the Separatists and their practises as their writings testifie as well as against the Diocesan Bishops and Ceremonies and it had been happy for you and this Kingdome that you had made better use of their light and of their draughts of Discipline the Reformation had been more easie and the godly party more united and the common enemy had never conceived such hopes and taken such heart as he does from your opinions And what ever you say it seemes that a great part of what the good old non-conformists writ came not much commended to you though your own and for all their sufferings because you follow it no better As to that passage about the Separation following the passage of the Non-conformists It is well you acknowledge that the Separation had fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks in their way and it was well you tooke such notice of them that you counted them as Land-markes to fore warâ—…e you of those rocks and shelves they ran upon and that thereupon you did enquire into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions this is one of the best passages in your book As there are foure passages among so many bad that are good and usefull One of the Parliament A second of the Assembly of Divines The third this of the Separatists The fourth a Description of many of the Proâ—…torus and people of this Kingdome But it had been better you had made so good a use of this observation and enquirie in Gods visibly witnessing from Heaven against the Separation in giving them up to fearfull sins in inflicting fearfull judgements and leaving them to strange divisions which your selves allude to in this passage and you know was in the stories of Browne Bolton Barrow Smith Iohnsons c. so as to have kept further from their principles and thereupon to have feared forsaking communion with our Churches and setting up Separated Assemblies and agreeing so much with them in most of the fundamentall and essentiall principles and practises and not to have come so nigh to them against whom God witnessed by so many fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks as only to resine and qualifie Brownisme and to spinne it of a finer thred then the old Separatists did But let me here put this Dilemma to you Seeing the Separatists fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks did put you upon an enquiry into the principles and causes of their divisions upon the enquiry either you found out and discovered those principles or you did not If you did not discover them why doe you insert these words here and carry it so to make the Reader
known to us by their confessions and I never knew till this Apologie came forth that ever the Churches of new-New-England were stiled the reformed Churches as the Brownists and Separatists never yet were unto whom yet the Parenthesis relates as well as to any of the other Churches And for our own Congregations we meane of England in which through the grace of Christ we were converted and exercised our Ministeries long to the conversion of many others we have this sincere profession to make before God and all the world that all that conscience of the defilements we conceived to cleave to the true worship of God in them or of the unwarranted power in Church Governours exercised therein did never work in any of us any other thought much lesse opinion but that multitudes of the Assemblies and Parochiall Congregations thereof were the true Churches and body of Christ and the Ministery thereof a true Ministery Much lesse did it ever enter into our hearts to judge them Antichristian we saw and cannot but see that by the same reason the Churches abroad in Scotland Holland c. though more reformed yet for their mixture must be in like manner judged no Churches also which to imagine or conceive is and hath ever been an horrour to our thoughts Yea we alwayes have professed and that in these times when the Church of England were the most either actually over spread with defilements or in the greatest danger thereof and when our selves had least yea no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own Land againe in peace and safety to our persons that we both dâ—…d and would hold a Communion with them as the Churches of Christ. And besides this profession as a reall testimony thereof some of us after we actually were in this way of communion baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations and as we had occasion did offer to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper with us some whom we knew godly that came to visit us when we were in our exile upon that relation fellowship and commembership they held in their Parish Churches in England they professing themselves to be members thereof and belonging thereunto What we have since our returne publikely and avowedly madâ—… declarations of to this purpose many hundreds can witnesse and some of our brethren in their printed bookes candidly doe testifie for us In this Section you come to declare your judgements concerning the Congregations of England and the Ministery of them wherein you apologize for your selves in regard of misapprehensions you might lye under in respect of your judgements concerning them For what good you speake of them now and for owning them as your own in which you were converted and in which you converted many others I thanke you But for the sincere profession you make before God and all the world that all that conscience of the defilements you conceive to cleave to the true worship of God in them or of the unwarranted power in Church Governours exercised therein did never work in any of you any other thought much lesse opinion but that multitudes of the Assemblies and Parochiall Congregations thereof were the true Churches and body of Christ and the Ministery thereof a true Ministery much lesse did it ever enter into your hearts to judge them Antichristian You must pardon me if I believe not this profession Nay I must tell some of you that if Letters and other Manuscripts which goe out under some of your names and are in my hands be yours as I have great reason to believe they are I shall prove this sincere profession of yours to be insincere and shall evidence the contrary to what you professe before God and the world namely that the corruptions which did cleave to our worship and the unwarranted power did not only work thoughts and opinions in you that our Churches and Ministers were not true but that you exprest so much and acted in the vertue of it nay even to judge them Antichristian There are some passages in one Letter more especially amongst others written by Mr Bridge to his loving friends in Norwich Mr Henry King Mr Toft Mr Smith Mr Rayner Mr. Mapp the substance of which Letter to them is Not to be content with the ordinance of hearing but to looke out after the plat-forme of Government left by Christ and his Apostles by Elders Pastours Teachers Deacons and Widdowes and to consider that every Church hath the power within it selfe and is not subject to one Officer or to another Congregation but to the whole body and to that whereof the member is a part And then Mr Bridge falls upon Episcopall government under which these friends of his lived as Antichristian and that their Episcopall government under which they lived was Papall and Romish and then brings in these words And will you then submit unto it what becomes of them that doe worship the beast and what of them that receive his marke Rev 13. 8. Rev. 149 10. It is a worshipping it is a receiving a marke to practise any Canon constitution or order that is framed or injoyned by that government What you have no Elders Pastors c. What you sit stand kneele at the command of that government and in the Postscript of this Letter he adds these words paying a Pepper-corne may acknowledge a Land-lord and the standing up at the Creed may acknowledge the government Now I demand of Mr Bridge and the other Apologists what multitudes of the Assemblies and parochiall Congregations were there in England that were wholly exempt from that Government or whether there was any that did refuse wholy all the Orders injoyned by that Government and if so whether then in Mr Bridges opinion and in his letters all our Congregations and Mâ—…nisters were not Antichristian in worshipping the Beast and receiving his marke let all the world and his owne conscience judge And for further proofe unto one of Mr Bridges letters were seven Questions annexed and propounded concerning the Ministerie worship and constitution of the Church Assemblies in England the usuall questions the Brownists make I have also the copie of a letter written from Mr Simpson to a man of note in London whose name out of respect to him I conceale the substance of which letter is to have him consider Whether he may live without all the Ordinances if they be any where to be had or live in danger of daily defilement and there is one thing which together with these he desires him to thinke upon namely what that state and condition is wherein we should injoy the Ordinances we should call nothing the meanes of salvation or Ordinances but what God hath appointed to his Church A Church is Christs bodie it consists of holy members in show at least joyned together to Christ as to a Head and as there is a bond whereby we are invisibly joyned so is there a bond to him visibly Ceremonies are nothing in regard
true Churches namely your seeing that if you had accounted our Churches no true Churches that by the same reason the Churches abroad in Scotland Holland c. yet for their mixture must in like manner be judged no Churches also I answer 't is no concluding Argument M. Robinson who was quick-sighted and lived in Holland long and seeing their mixture yet acknowledges those Churches true but denies ours to be true upon other grounds besides the mixture and 't is evident your reason is insufficient for if your description of a visible Church were only upon difference in the point of mixture and your grounds of separation only upon mixt communion then your Reason had some weight in it but you know your exceptions were many against our Churches which lay not against the Reformed Churches but it is strange to me if you were so good at consequences that you saw and could not but see when there was no necessitie of seeing you could not see the necessarie consequences of your principles about a Church and Ministerie nay not see even your contradictions For let a man but take your owne Positions and Assertions concerning a true visible Church and the true calling of Ministers and lay together your quarrelling with us and leaving us upon those grounds because we have no such Churches and Ministers and yeâ—… to affirme that multitudes of our Parochiall Churches are true Churches And certainly however you who are Schollars might be such good Logicians to make such distinctions to salve all as you conceited yet your people could not but they from your principles and positions about Church Ministerie Worship and Government have judged us no true Churches nor true Ministers but have wondred at this sincere profession of yours before God and the world concerning our Churches and Ministers saying they understood you otherwise and they were much deceived if you held not otherwise at first though now you expresse your selves after this manner And I can hardly beleeve had you made alwaies and frequently such professions of our Churches and Ministers and of keeping communion with them as the Churches of Christ that ever so many had fallen off to your way But thus 't is in all the way of errours men by sits will expresse things as other men do who are Orthodox but yet in a sence of their own to avoid exceptions and that they may be thought to hold as others do therby the more to draw and work some men off to their way when yet in the common sense and understanding of the points they hold otherwise As the Socinians say they hold Christ God and call him so but in a sence of their own and yet denie it in the Orthodox sense So Pelagians and Arminians will extoll the grace of God and that a man can doe nothing without it and yet in that sence wherein the controversie is they set up free-will above the grace of God And so Antinomians will say they doe not denie the law of God and yet in the sense controverted are flat against it And so the Papists will say they hold and looke to be saved by Christ as well as any Protestant though it 's well knowne there is a great difference betweene them in the point of Justification So you and many of your way in a sense of your owne give us good words and say we have true Churches and true Ministerie and yet in the sense of the controversie you teach flat contrary as doth appeare both by printed Tractâ—…tes and by manuscripts and many practises As to that Profession in this Section That in the times when the Churches of England were most either actually overspread with defilements or in the greatest danger therof that we both did and would bold a communion with them as the Churches of Christ I answer what doe I heare words when I see deeds so contrary How can I beleeve this profession that ye would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ under their greatest defilements when as you have never held communion with any of them in the time of their greatest reformation and puritie In this three yeares last since your comming over wherein we have been so free from pollution in worship and since that in so many Churches in London there hath bin the totall laying aside of prescribed formes of prayer and that great care to keepe away both ignorant and prophane persons Which of you five have received the Lords Supper in any of these true Churches and bodies of Christ I never could learne that any of you five nor any of the members of your Churches have communicated with us I can tell you of the adding to your Church Assemblies great numbers since and of your receiving the Lords Supper at night in private houses and how some of you who have not Churches here in London goe to separated Churches to partake in the Lords Supper But Brethren why doe you deale thus and write thus to make men beleeve as if you held great communion with our Churches now who would have held it with them in such bad times I desire you to speake plaine English and not to speake after this manner as you doe too often in this Apologie and to interpret to us in your Reply to this Answer what you meane by both Did and Would hold communion with the Churches of England as the Churches of Christ I know no communion you did hold or doe with us now though so reformed And if you do and will what means that wall of partition between us your new constituted Churches As for thâ—…â—…aring of Sermons sometimes in our Churches and preachiâ—…g in our Congregations I doubt whether you hold that a keeping communion with our Churches and Ministers but rather preach as gifted men and heare ours as gifted men and how ever if M. Robinson and some of your way may be beleeved they hold hearing of the Word no Act of Communion nor no proper nor peculiar thing of the Church And that you are of the same judgement I have great reason both from your principles and practise to thinke so As for that reall testimonie besides your profession That some of us after we actually were in this way of communion baptized our children in Parishionall Congregations whereby you would inferre you held a communion with our Congations as the Churches of Christ I answer this is no reall testimony thereof because it cannot be understood but in the sense before opened of Churches and Ministery And besides if Mr Sympson were one of this Some who baptized his children in Parishionall Congregations 't is so inconsistent with what he writ in the Letter before quoted of the Church and baptisme that I know not how to reconcile these together And the truth is many of your practises are oft times so in-coherent with some of your principles of Church-fellowship as for instance Pastors are necessary Officers in your Churches and yet according
to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them that a man cannot tell when he hath a reall testimony what you hold or how long you have held it And as for that other reall testimony as you had occasion offering to receive some of ours whom ye knew godly that came to visit you when you were in exile upon that relation fellowship and com-membership they held in their parish-Parish-churches in England 1. 'T is no reall testimony because you oâ—…red it but doe not say you performed it 2. If you had actually performed it it is no such reall testimony of the truth of our Churches and ministery but of your own rather into the communion whereof they were received 3. Still their admission was founded upon that distinction of Implicit Churches as appeares by your following words For you would admit them upon such termes as you would gaine a principle of your own by them get more by it then communion with you was worth namely that such who were known to be godly might not come to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper unlesse they were members of some particular Congregation and so in their partaking with you they must yeeld that grand Brownisticall principle the foundation of other errors among the Separatists namely that Sacraments belong not to visible believers but as they are members of some particular Congregation As also you put them upon a practice and order never required by example or precept in the Scriptures And let me intreat you in your reply you give to this answer to give me a Scripture to prove that all men who come to the Lords Supper must professe their member-ship and their retaining to such a particular Congregation I professe my selfe of another judgement and cast the glove to any of you five or to you all That it is lawfull for the Ministers of Christ to receive such whom they know to be godly to the Lords Supper though they be not members of a particular Church and to receive those who are members without any professing themselves to be so Suppose some godly Merchants or Marriners who all their dayes travell and never stay long in any one place yet in all places where they come desire to joyne in the ordinances ought not such to be received The standing rule of comming to the Lords Supper will be found to be faith and godlinesse shown forth rather then the formality of membership But deale ingeniously doe you tell us here all that you required of the godly that came to visit you or doe you tell us only a part which question I the rather propound because as you doe relate in other parts of this Narration as in the eighth page so I find Mr Batchelour one of you writing from Rotterdam of your Churches that they will not keepe back the Sacrament from any of the godly of such Churches in England as Mr Goodwins and Mr Calamyes are alwayes provided that their own Pastours doe consent unto it Now the godly who are gone into Holland and especially to New-England not finding any such word in Scripture of bringing a ticket from their Ministers and so comming into those Countreyes without it may be long kept from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper till they either goe into England and fetch it or till they send for it over and have a returne back of the consent of their own Pastors which may be was the reason that though you offered to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper some godly that came to visit you in your exile yet for want of bringing their Pastors consent unto it returned into England without partaking in the Lords Supper with you Which by the way will be a good warning for all that henceforth goe over into Holland or New-England to carry their Ministers consents over with them least otherwise they be not admitted to the Lords Supper and that you doe not deale plainely with us in this relation of admitting the godly in the Parish Churches of England into the Communion of the Lords Supper with you but there is some reservation and evasion I much doubt because the known godly in the parish-Parish-church of Coleman-street which amongst parish-Parish-churches is one of your true Churches in England cannot be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper by vertue of their relation of membership they hold in the Parish-church never since their Pastor fell into your Church-way As for your publike and avowed declarations to this purpose which many hundreds can witnesse I never heard of any of them in any publike meetings though I have been in many nor in any Sermons you have preacht though I have heard of many things you preacht which you are like to heare of in this Answer But if I may speake what I have heard there hath been a Narrative promised from you of what you hold which many Ministers also can witnesse but was never performed by you till this day As to that in the close of this Section that some of your brethren in their printed books doe candidly testifie for you It is but one of them not some unlesse you take in Mr Herles Imprimatur to your Apologie who I doubt not before this time by what he hath heard from some of his bretheren of the Assembly and seen in that book intituled Reformation of Church-government in Scotland with the contents of the Letters from some Churches beyond the seas besides the light this Answer will give will see easily how by your courting of him he was surprized And it is no wonder that Mr Herle Mr Channell with some other men of worth having lived somewhat remote and having not been much conversant with you and your distinctions might be at first mistaken with such good words and solemne professions And as we alwayes held this respect unto our own Churches in this Kingdome so we received and were entertained with the like from those reformed Churches abroad among whom we were cast to live wee both mutually gave and received the right hand of fellowship which they on their parts abundantly manifested by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects which they tollerate but not owne and all the assemblies of them which yet now we are here some would needs ranke us with granting to some of us their own Churches or publike places for worship to assemble in where themselves met for the worship of God at differing houres the same day As likewise the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto our meetings Which we mention because it is amongst them made the great signall of difference between their own allowed Churches and all other assemblies unto whom it is strictly prohibited and forbidden as Guiciardine hath long since observed And others of us found such acceptance with them that in testimony thereof they allowed a full and
liberall maintenance annually for our Ministers yea and constantly also wine for our Communions And then we againe on our parts not only held all brotherly correspondencie with their Divines but received also some of the members of their Churches who desired to communicate with us unto communion in the Sacraments and other ordinances by vertue of their relation of membership retained in those Churches In the last Section I prooved both by Letters and many other presumptions you alwayes held not that respect to the Church of England you seeme to professe in that Section if now at last you be growne more sober and wise upon reviewing your principles I am glad of it non est pudor ad meliora transire For this Section your being received and entertained with the like respect from those Reformed Churches abroad and your mutually giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship If I may beleeve reports and Letters and those not light but from Ministers and good people I have been by word of mouth told and I have in writing from thence grounds to question the truth of this Narration A godly Minister out of Holland in answer to some questions sent about the truth of your Apologie writes thus to this present Section And here I cannot but adde this that whereas the Apologeticall Narration mentions these things as an argument of the incouragements they had in these parts and their good concurrence with the Churches here it hath been affirmed to me from very good testimony that however the Magistrates at Rotterdam for politick ends as to gather company to them which is for the profit of the place yet the Churches there I meane the Dutch never approoved of the course held there by these Brethren and their people It hath been affirmed to me that many of the Dutch Ministers were much offended at Mr Bridges being ordained Minister by the Lay-elders without any preaching Presbyters And what ever right-hand fellowship and brotherly correspondency you might hold with the Dutch Divines some of the English Ministers of the Reformed Churches there have complained of your great strangenesse and distance towards them and instance hath been given me particularly by a great friend of yours now in London that when some of you have come to Amsterdam you never would goe to Mr Herrings a good old non-conformist but have gone to Mr Canne's the Separatist and to his Church And besides this report told me some yeares agoe from a friend of your owne that I might not only beleeve reports I sent over into Holland some questions about the truth of some things related by you in this Apologie the contrary whereunto I had been informed of before and among other questions upon this Section I propounded what communion and converse passed between the godly English Ministers and their Congregations and you or whether when you came to Amsterdam you went not rather to the Brownists meetings and conversed with Mr Canne more then the Reformed Ministers Unto which question I had this answer in so many words sent To this I can say that since my comming hither we have had no such communion with them as that we have prevailed with any of them to preach in our Congregation though I am sure some of them have beene earnestly importuned thereunto indeed Mr Bridge seemed once to be willing but did not And for their going to the Brownists and conversing with Mr Canne more then us that is undeniable What you may of this reade in Epistle to the Rejoinder indefence of Mr Bradshaw against Mr Canne is most true and certaine But suffer me a little to examine the particulars wherein you would proove the mutuall giving and receiving the right-hand of fellowship For the first That you were received and entertained with the like respect that you gave to our Churches in England I easily beleeve which was but little And if the Reformed Churches look't upon you and you on them as you did upon our Churches in this Kingdome you have no cause to boast here of mutuall giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship remembring what I answered to your last Section concerning your profession of our Churches As to that proofe you bring of their giving you the right hand of fellowship in their abundantly manifesting it by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects c I answer this was not to all of your Churches for Mr Simpson which yet is your way and is here owned by you all in this Apologie had not a Church or publike place for worship granted to him nor the priviledge of ringing a Bell to call to meetings but was looked upon as a Sect as Mr Bridge told me And in a Letter out of Holland from a good hand to that question Whether Mr Simpsons Church had the allowance of ringing a publike Bell to call to their meeting and whether any maintenance allowed by the States 'T is answered To this I shall say I never yet heard by any that his Church had any such allowance of Bell or maintenance by the States Now if Mr Simpsons Church was lookt upon as a Sect tollerated but not owned wanting that great signall of difference between allowed Churches and all other assemblies namely the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto their meetings and the rest of your Churches being just of the same way and constitution with his as appeares by this Apologie then the ranking of you now you are here with Sects is no great injury to you Neither will the granting to your two other Churches publike places to worship with maintenance for some of your Ministers c. free you from being lookt upon as Sects by the Churches and Ministers there but I must tell you these priviledges came from other grounds as namely one of your Churches consisting of many persons of great quality and going at first to a priviledged place the other Church having formerly been a Church in the way of the Reformed Churches there and so had then the allowance of a publike place The first sensible declining of that Church to the new-way being by Mr Peters before he went to new-New-England Now Mr Bridge comming to that Church and bringing with him and after him wealthy Citizens and Clothiers by which the Magistrates at Rotterdam knowing well their advantage No wonder though they permitted that Church their publike place and gave to their Ministers a full and liberall maintenance yea and Wine for their Communions and yet should gaine well by it As for your holding all brotherly correspondency with their Divines which I suppose you meane the Dutch not knowing any of them I can say nothing against it but only 't is a great presumption that holding so little brotherly correspondencie with our own English Divines there you held not much with the Dutch But grant that
Churches allow particular Congregations such an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders within themselves and wherein not such a particular Narration would have carried in the face of it some ground for the defference of their practise and allowance might have served to have pointed out the differences between your way and theirs But secondly As you relate the way and discipline of the reformed Churches it sounds somewhat harsh and strange that their practise should be one way and their judgements another their practise to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbyterie of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government and yet in their judgements to allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation and entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within it selfe Doe they practise one way and allow another way or doe they hold both wayes the wayes of God or what is it you meane in this Narration of those Churches or can it be meant in the same sense and acception to practise one thing and yet allow another or will you make the lesser matters practised in their particular Churches by their own Elders to be the same with some cases wherein they allow particular Congregations an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves Now the latter namely in some cases cannot be meant for then this last part is no more then the first neither can your words of an entire compleate power of jurisdiction in the particular Congregations be meant of smaller matters but of the greatest matters in some cases You shall doe well in your reply to english these lines about the difference of the reformed Churches practises in greater matters and their different judgements in some cases and shew us in what sense they meane it and whether it can be properly and truly alledged for your case of entire and compleate power in your Congregations Thirdly This which you here relate of the reformed Churches practise and allowance is fallaciously set downe and for your own advantage meerely to make out this third principle that you still chose to practise safely namely what the reformed Churches allowed and acknowledged warrantable onely they superadded Presbyteriall combinations whereas the reformed Churches doe not as you well know in the case and question controverted between them and you allow particular Congregations in a Kingdome and nation conceiving the reformed Religion to have an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves what may be in some of their books in extraordinary or speciall cases where there is but one particular Congregation in a Countrey or the like that is nothing to the point in hand it being laid for a common ground by them all that every particular Church in a Nation or Kingdom is not to be left to it selfe but that there is a necessity of a common nationall government to preserve all the Churches in unity and peace And to cleare the reformed Churches of France Holland Scotland from what you say they allow I doe not find in their books of discipline and platformes of Church government by which we must judge of their judgements nor in their practises that they doe allow an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders of every Congregation alone either in the making or ordaining of Ministers or in deposing their Ministers or in drawing up a forme of doctrine worship and discipline for themselves they allow power of admonition suspension from the Lords Supper and of taking up lesser differences by the particular Eldership and if I forget not the Churches of France only practise excommunication by the Elders in particular Congregations without carrying it at first higher but then if we consider that in those Churches of France their Elderships goe upon certaine fixed rules in there excommunications laid down in their books of discipline who if they proceed otherwise are liable to censure themselves and their being appeales to Synods and Assemblies and all being carried in reference and dependance to Assemblies the case is very different now if the Churches of your way and communion in old England and in New would yeeld to have a government fixt and setled by Synods and Assemblies establisht also by the Magistrates upon which Rules and Orders they should proceed in the way of making Ministers and that such errors in doctrine and such evill manners ought to be the subject of excommunication and then agree upon appeales to Synods and Assemblies then there would be lesse dangâ—…r in such an entire and compleate power in particular Congregations To the second particular under this first head namely what some of the old non-conformists grant placing the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed subjâ—…cting them to Presbytâ—…riall and Provinciall Assemblies and that it could not be infallibly prooved that any of the Churches recorded in the new Testament were so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregatïon And that both the Ministers of the reformed Churches and our non-conformists all granted that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord I answer as followes For Mr Cartwright you not quoting which of his books you have reference to and so not knowing which to turne to to find out what you assert of him I shall not deny it but as for Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall which is the only booke I ever heard of wherein he handles these points he doth in the third question give the Ecclesiasticall power and the exercise of it to a united multitude of Presbyters in which booke howsoever as intending his booke against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to whom all Presbyters and Churches stand in subjection and subordination he pleads against them for the power of the particular Elders in the severall Congregations yet as against the reformed Churches practise namely of a Presbyteriall Church consisting of many particular Congregations and ruled by the Elders of severall Congregations combined he pleadeth not but expressely in answer made to those two objections from the Churches and Elders where there is a co-ordination and a communiâ—…y in government as in the Low Countries and at Géneva he grants the thing contended for against your Congregationall way even before miscarrying and shewes thâ—… great difference between the Diocesan government and the Presbyteriall in severall particulars and answers your objections which you commonly make of a forraigne extrinsicall power And for your better satisfaction reade and compare together the passages in these pages of Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall page 21 page 11. What is meant by a Diocesan Church and in the 12th page two first conclusions agreed in and in the 16th page And for the non-conformists in their writings against the Episcopall government and Diocesan Churches though they put the Bishops their adversaries all they could to it to make them proove
write in any other sense but in the point of Ecclesiasticall government and power did we lay to your charge in our writing against Independencie that you challenged an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependance or rather that you should blow a trumpet of desiance against what ever power spirituall or civill did I or any others charge you with refusing all subjection to the civill Magistrate And for that other dependance of consultation and non-communion upon other Churches the power you give in that kind to Synods c. I acknowledged it in my eight reason and argued from thence to the power of excommunication why then doe you deale thus deceitfully and doubly pretending to abhorre and detest Independencie as it was objected and pleaded against you when as besides the very words and phrases found in so many printed books and notes you hold all that in the question which is the difference betwixt you and the Presbyterians as also in some of your books Independent and entire power are termini convertibiles as in the title of Sions Prerogative Royall which entire full compleate power in terminis and in so many sillables you owne more then once in this Apologie so that all your great words of abhorring and detesting the exemption of your Churches from all power spirituall or civill will not save you from Independencie justly affixed unto you As for civill power it is not the question in controversie neither was it affixt unto you and for spirituall power properly cal'd you deny it all along in many pages speaking against authoritative power often page 15 18 19. And to put you this Dilemma either you give authoritative power to other Churches or you doe not if you doe give it why doe you speake so against it in your Apologie but if you doe not give it why would you make your Reader beleeve you doe give spirituall power and are not against it is not this doubling and shuffling and troubling the waters that the Reader cannot tell where to find you nor what you hold too great an evidence of a weake and bad cause becomming not such men as you would be taken for truth is open and naked and doth not seeke out holes and subterfugies But brethren doe not deceive your selves nor your Reader any longer if you be not against spirituall power properly so called of any Classes or Synods in reference to particular Congregations what meane you by all you say from page 12 to the end of the 19 and of all that controversie and Tragedies made by you against the reformed Churches for giving a power to Classes and Synods and let me intreate you that the controversie may be brought to some end between you and us in your Reply set down particularly what you will allow to Classes Synods generall Assemblies and Councels in matter of government and whether that you will allow and give Authority and power yea or no and what you will not give nor allow them and then state the question so and I doe promise you in my Rejoynder to apply my selfe to give you satisfaction as if you except Excommunication Ordination or what else to show you the grounds for them and if we love truth and peace either you shall win me or I you 3. For the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us I answer Brownisme as you in these words expresse it hath not been fastned on you by any that I know but on the contrary you have been commonly contra-distinguish'd from them being called Independents Semi-separatists and in my reasons against Independent government I doe in many passages difference you from them and for all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them namely drawing such consequences and conclusions and going so farre as they I have often vindicated you but yet for all that you cannot justly free your selves from the odious name of Brownisme in most of the fundamentall principles and practises of your Churches no not with all your Artifices and specious pretences As the Brownists growing up and out of the Anabaptists did refine and qualifie Anabaptisine in many things in government prophecying c. So have you refined and qualified Brownisme from the grossenesse and rigidnesse of it as it was held by the first Fathers and Authours of it as I could show in many particulars you doe not goe so farre as they neither are you against some practises of other Churches upon those high termes but yet for substance from the first stone to the last in departing from our Assemblies and constituting new you agree with them as by a paralell betweene the way of your Communion and the Separatists lately printed doth appeare And in a word it is evident thus You agree with the way of new-New-England as is confest by some of yourselves and we may judge so by your high praise of them Now the Churches of new-New-England agree with them of M. Robinsons Church who are moderate and qualified Brownists Now that the Church-way of new-New-England is the same with them of M. Robinsons Church is proved thus The Church at New-Plymouth was the first companie that planted in those parts who comming from Leiden where they were members of M. Robinsons Church a moderate Brownist in his latter time practised the Church-opinions and wayes they formerly had in Holland and when they of new-New-England went over first through their conversing with them and nearenesse of scituation they tooke up and learned their way as appeares by these particulars First M. W. an eminent man of the Church of New-Plymouth told W. R. that the rest of the Churches of new-New-England at first came to them of Plymouth to crave their direction in Church-courses and made them their patterne Secondly M. Cotton in a letter to M. Skelton one of the first Ministers that went over thither writes thus to him in way of answer to this Position that M. Skelton held That our Congregations in England are none of them particular Reformed Churches but M. Lathrops and such as his This errour requires rather a Booke then a letter to answer it you went hence of another judgement and I am afraid your change hath sprung from New-Plymouth men whom though I much esteeme as godly loving Christians yet their grounds which for this Tenet they received from M. Robinson doe not satisfie me Thirdly There is great commendations given to the Church of Plymouth by M. Cotton after comming to new-New-England in his letter to M. Williams pag. 13. Fourthly All the Ministers and Elders of New-England doe affirme that all the Churches in new-New-England viz. in the Bay in the jurisdiction of Plymouth and at Connetâ—…acute are one and the same way in Church constitution government and discipline without any materiall difference Now what can be said more plaine Adde to all these that I had it from the mouth of a
unlesse they be Church members with many more all slat against the Primitive patterns hath ever been from first to last a fountaine of evill and a root of bitternesse of many bitter divisions and separations amongst themselves of manifold errors and other mischiefes in those Churches and places where they lived God having alwayes witnesses against it and never blessing it with peace and truth I shall not need to relate the histories of the Anaptists the highest forme of Independencie and the Church way what evils they fell into and the mischiefes they brought upon Germanie and how God cursed and scattered them As for the Brownists the middle forme of Independencie the Apologists themselves confesse they had fatall miscarriages and shipwracks And I could tell a sad storie but that it would be now too long even from Bolton and Browne the first and prime leaders down to the present Brownists at Amsterdam of the Apostasies Heresies Separations and bitter divisions with the untimely fearefull ends which have fallen out amongst them but in respect my booke so much exceeds the proportion intended I shall reserve that for a more distinct handling And for the semi-Brownists and Independents so cal'd by way of distinction they have not been free The Churches of the Apologists have had their bitter divisions and fearefull miscarriages as the Reader may remember in these pages of this present Answer pag. 35 36 37 142 143 144. with some erroneous conceits fallen into and preached in one of their Churches So in the Churches of new-New-England there have been so many errors differences and evils that I beleeve had we but a true impartiall storie of New-England for the first seven or eight yeares after they were come to any number we should have the strangest storie next that of the Anabaptists and old Brownists one of them in the world in a word they were brought by their Independencie and Church principles next dore to ruine both spirituall and temporall the sad experience of which hath made them wheele about of later yeeres towards Presbyteriall government and in stead of that not being yet formally come to it to take aliquid analogum in the first constituting of Churches making Ministers c. which at first they did not and to give more power to Classes and Synods then they did many yeares agoe as by comparing some Letters from thence in those times written by Ministers over into England and Mr Cottons late booke will be evident In a word he that will observe it shall find the end of Independencie infinite schismes separations errors inconstancie and uncertainty in judgement yea barbarisme and confusion and the Toleration of it by this State would be the opening of a sloud-gate to many other errors and evills besides what evill is in that being a way all along wherein it â—…iffers from the reformed Churches either beside or against the word of God And should the Parliament which God forbid and I hope is farre from their thoughts give the Independents a Toleration of their way and Churches they should give they know noâ—… what having never yet spoken out all that they hold this Apologie containing but a little part of their way besides taking in their second great principle page 10. Apolog of not making their present judgement and practise a binding law for the future the Parliament may grant grosse Brownisme Anabaptisme within a short time many falling off according their principles of new light to cast off communion with their own Churches as some of Mr Sympsons have done and let it be but remembred what I now write whether some of the Apologists if they come not in and joyne with the reformed Churches doe not within a few yeeres goe a great way further I think had they staid together in Holland till this time without any hopes of a Toleration here some of them had gone farre by this time of day Anointing with oyle was begun to be brought in Hymnes had been moved for in one of their Churches and if I may beleeve the report of a religious Person in an open company affirming it againe and againe when I doubted it that a member of the Church of Aâ—…nheim who was also named to me related that had they staid there a little longer the ordinance of Hymnes had been practised amongst them one being chosen and agreed upon by the Church to exercise that ordinance And I am able to demonstrate it that the Apologists keeping but to their principles besides the principle of a Reserve must yet goe a great way further and supposing the Parliament should make a proposition to them Wee will grant you this and this and so which be the present principlâ—…s you hold forth but if you bring in any thing more or goe farther then your Churches shall be dessolved and we will recall what we granted you because we will be sure to know what we allow in matters of Religion be at a certaintie for that I doe not thinke the Apologists would accept of a Toleration upon those tearmes and such a condition The beginnings of errors commonly are most modest but let alone some time they exceed all bounds how farre most of the Arminians proceeded beyond what Arminius held or themselves at first the learned books of many Divines and experience showes and if a Toleration were granted to the Apologists and all those of their communion to exercise their consciences I feare before a yeere went about many would turne Anabaptists c. but I desire rather to pray against a toleration then to prophecie of the evill of it But supposing the best that can be that the State had an Assurance the Apologists and their Churches would not goe one step further then now they hold the Toleration should not be made use of to any further errors yet the Parliament should not allow it unlesse they would grant a Toleratiod of Brownisme and if Brownisme be a bitter error and way then the way of the Apologists is not very sweet their way being but Browns younger brother agreeing with the Brownists in the nature and definition of the visible Church in the Independent power of a particular Congregation in the way of making Officers in the way of their ordinancâ—…s as Prophesying in the way of Forms of Prayer in the Sacraments none to be admitted but Church members cum multis alijs and I desire the Apologists to give any materiall difference however their grounds are different and they doe not goe so farre in consequences nor are not so grosse between their Churches and the Brownists As for that of the power of the people and the Officers in giving the power to the Officers but the Brownists to the people I answer however the Apologists differ in that point from the Brownists in words phrases methods and give us many fine words and flattering similitudes going about yet the truth is they differ not in substance in their practise but all comes to one end and
matters of difference in the Assembly whereby it might be brought to an Uniformitie you endeavour by this Apologie a Toleration and sue for an exemption of Conjunction and Uniformitie in Church Government which is strange you should desire especially having coveâ—…anted to the contrary which breach of covenant is aggravated also that you do not onely do it your selves but you labour to bring the Houses into it by moving them to grant you a Toleration Now if a simple and single untruth need repentance what repentâ—…nce ought there to be for such a compounded aggravated evill as yours â—…s And as I have represented it to your own consciences that you may smite upon the thigh so I turne you over to your Churches whereof you are Ministers that they deale with you for your great sin and either bring you to Conâ—…ion and Repentance or else proceed to censure did I know where your Churches dwelt and where they meet I might then come and complain to them of your great sin but in stead of comming I send them this Answer and hereby give them notice and 〈◊〉 ready to satisfie any that shall desire further proofe and in stead of declaring by letters the offence I doe by printing declare it and require of the Churches especially Mr Sympsons Church as they will not be guilty of suffering known sinne in the Church as they would not suffer sinne to lye upon a brother and as they would vindicate the glory and honour of Christ that they call Mr Sympson to an account and admonish him and bring him to publike repentance for his publike sin or else upon impenitencie and obstinacie that they cast him out of the Church and I beleeve the sin he is charged with will fall under the subject of that dreadfull sentence according to what sins your selves judge that sentence is to be put in execution for Apol. pag. 9. But if Mr Sympsons Church neglect and will not question this sin then I desire the rest of the Churches of that Communion to send to the Churches of the Apologists and to charge them with their countenancing of sin and if the Churches will still beare and wink at sin and continue impenitent that then the rest of the Churches namely Mr Lockiers Mr Carters Dr Holmes c. doe pronounce the heavy sentence of non-Non-communion against the Apologists Churches and further to dèclare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like to send also to new-New-England and give notice to all the Churches of the Separation that they may non-Non-communion the Apologists Churches But if the particular Churches of the Apologists and all the Churches of their owne Communion will all hold to favour sin neither question the Apologists nor their Churches then we shall have a cleare instance of the partialitie of those Churches and of their allowing of sin among themselves and of the insuâ—…ticiencie of those Remedies of Submission Non-Communion Declaration and Protestation FINIS * Calv. epist. 65. Melanct. Verum si in nobis omnibus esset is animus qul esse debet aliquod forsan remedium posset inveniti Et certè foedum exemplum transmiâ—…imus ad posterot c. August Vincentio Epist. 48. Nunc vero etiam si tibi nihil profit non puto nihil ijs profuturam qui eam legere cum Deitimore sine personarum acceptione curaverint a Beza Epist. 1. And 1. Duditio Dominus te totamque familiam ob omni malo ac praesertim a Daemoniss meridianis istie obambulantibus custodiat * Mat. 1. v. 18 19. Acts 7. from v. 2. to v. 57. Acts 22. v. 1. to v 2â—… Acts cap 24. Acts cap. 26. a Justin. Mart. 2. Apolog. pro Christianis Tertul. Apol. Athenag Apol. vel legatio pro Christianis Athanas. Apol. Arnobij Apol. Eulog Apologâ—…t Sanctorum Martyr b Zuinglij Apol qua ad crimina respondet Apologet. contra Episcop Constant. Bucer Apolog. contra Brentium Dannaei Apolog. pro Helvet Ecclesijs Apolog Dan. pro adoratione Melancthonis Apol. August consess Apolog. pro Luthero Gualtb Apol pro Zuinglio Beza Apolog. Jevelli Apolog. Eccl. Anglicanae Mort. Apol. Cathol c Scâ—…venfeld Apol. contra Fabium Apol ad Regeâ—… Hung. de mediatione Stancari Apolog. Vorstij Theses Apolog. Exeg Apol. Oratio Apolog. Bertij Apolog. Apolog. Remonstrantium Apolog. Schast Francae D. P. Dirick Pâ—…ps Apol Apolog. Episcop Francisc. de S tâ— Cl. d Apologie of the Brownists Robins Apolog. Justif. of Separat e Apolog. for Ch. Cove Apol. Reply Davenport * Page 4. 11 19 12 24. Apolog. Apolog. M S. to A. S. cap. 5. pag. 83. Apolog. Dissert de Guber Eccl. pag. 620. Quinam bujuâ—… criminis rei judicentur me quidem latet neque in qirere ad nos attinet Hoc scio noâ—… convenire in eos qui intra sententiae nostrae terminos se continent Apolog. To his loving friends Mr Henry King Mr Tost Mr Smith Mr Raner Mr Mapp Apolog. Apol. Iusta necessaria per Joh. Robins cap. 6. De conjugio per pastores Ecclesiae celebrato Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 4 5 18 19. Reformat of Ch. Govern in Scotland pag. 10. Reformat of Ch. Govern pag. 18. 'T is laid for a common ground by the Divines in all the â—…eformed Churches that where a whole Nation is converted to the Christian faith every particular Church is not to be left to it selfe as if it were alone in a Nation but that Christ hath provided a way and there is a necessity of a common Nationall government to preserve all the Churchâ—… in unitie and peace Apolog. Page 9. Meâ—…ch Adam vita Whitak pag. 177. Mr Raâ—…b Narration of Ch. courses p. 1. The rest of the Churches in new-New-England came at first to them in Plimouth to crave their direction in Ch. courses and made them their patterne Apolog. Letter Mr Cottons letter examined and answered pag. 44. Mr Cotton himselfe and other most eminent Ministers in Nâ—…w-England had freely confessed that notwithstanding their former profession of Ministerie in old England yet in New-England till they received a particular calling from a particular Church that they were but private Christians Apolog. Robin p. 10 11. c. 12. de Eccl. Angl. * Robins Apol. cap. 12. p 78. Propria inquâ—… peculiaria in quibus verbi auditionem simpliciter noâ—… annumero â—…pote inqua non intercedit inter docentem discentem communio spiritualiâ—… sive Eccl. sive personalis nisi ex unione prae via Ecclesiastica aut personall Robins Catechis Quest. May all the faithfull partake in the Sacraments Ans. No except they be also added to some particular Congregation Apolog. Letter out of Holland De Ecclesijs reformatis quid aliud dicam eas pro veris genuinis c. Ecclesijs bahemus cum eisdem in sacris Dei communionem prositemur quantum in nobis est colimus conciones publicas ab illarum pastoribus habitas ex
by what I have answered already both of the weakenesse of that ground a sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations and that in all reason you could not but expect exclamations that you were not enforced by that to make this Apologie and to anticipate the discovery of your selves Being schollers and understanding men you may blush to write that such poore things should inforce you against your resolutions but you were willing and desirous to make such an Anticipation and so you would make and find some ground for it judging a sorry excuse better then none at all but however you were not inforced to anticipate yet I must tell you this Aoplogie is an Anticipation with a witnesse such an Anticipation both for the unseasonablenesse of it and for the manner and way of it as I judge no story nor age can paralell it That you could not stay a little longer but in such a time when we need so much the assistance of our brethren of Scotland and the help of all other Reformed Churches in the face of the Parliament Assembly and Kingdome to put out such a peece and to doe such an act as this is beyond all example and I will but represent to your selves and the reader in a third person what you have done in making this Apologeticall Narration and then leave you to give sentence Suppose any other five Members of the Assembly men as considerable as your selves every way both for piety and learning nay any twenty Members of the Assembly had at the same time when you put forth this Apologeticall Narration only presented a bare Narration of a Government different both from the Government by Arch-bishops Bishops c. and from the Presbyteriall to both Houses of Parliament and that without reciting their doings and sufferings or pleading their great merits or without casting any aspertions on Presbyteriall government and the Reformed Churches and should have peremptorily concluded as you doe in two severall pages viz. 22 and 24. That we doe here publikely professe the true Government to stand and consist in the middle way betwixt that which is called Episcopall and Presbyteriall What would you five have thought of this and how think you would this have been taken by the Houses of Parliament and by the Assembly Whether would not you five and some others of you have cry'd out of this as a most strange fact and have strongly moov'd and aggravated it with all your might that this affront both to the Parliament and the Assembly so contrary to the nature and end of this meeting to pre-judge and pre-determine a Governement might be censured with a suspension from the Assembly at least if not an utter expulsion As for the discovering of your selves by this Apologeticall Narration which otherwise you should have left to time and experience This booke is not only a little discovery of your selves but a mighty discoverer of your wayes and spirits and shewes us what we may judge of you who will put out in publike a piece so fallacious and untrue as this will appeare to be But how ever this is the first discovery of your selves in this way with all your hands subscribed yet we have had a discovery of you for some yeeres past both in your practises of withdrawing from our Publike Assemblies and in gathering and constituting separated Churches preaching also often on the points concerning your Church-way as also writing Letters and other Manuscripts about â—…ose matters with other wayes wherein time and experiâ—…ce of 7 or 8 yeares last past hath been sufficient discoverers and sure judges of you and your actions And now we shall begin to make some appearance into publike light unto whose view and judgements should we that have hitherto laine under so darkâ—… a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions at first present our selves but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome which is and hath beene in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before much more to dare to appeale unto and yet withall the most sacred refuge ánd Asylum for mistaken and mis-judged innocence 'T is strange that having kept out of publike light as you say all this three yeares space you could not forbeare a little longer from telling fine stories of your selves and publishing your particular private opinions in print Especially considering there was an Assembly of Learned Divines of which you are Members to declare unto and with whom you might debate the points in difference where also you know you have all freedome and just respect And I must tell you 't is the judgement of some of your good friends that you were much mistaken in the time now and that you had been farre more excusable if you had put out this Apologeticall Narration a yeare or two agoe they interpreting it a violation of the Orâ—…nce by which you are Members a high affront and contempt to the Assembly in pre-judging of it and such a preingaging of your selves and party as you cannot retreat so easily and with that honour as you might before As also a ground of much disturbance and prejudice with the people against what shall be determined by the Assembly As to that you say we now begin to make some appearance into publike light In a sense'tis true for all the time that you have beene in your Church way both in Holland and England you have carried things closely and conceal'd all that you could possibly your opinions and practises with the grounds of them from your brethren the Ministers who studied and understood the points But for tender conscienced and weake Christians especially such whom you had any interest in any wayes and you had any probability to gaine to you you have not been wanting either in letters of Invitation or cominending some books of the Church-way to them as also by preaching and conference to draw them to you As for that quere Unto whose view and judgement should we at first present our selves but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome I answer 1. To any rather then to the two Houses of Parliament to present before them such a darke covert doubtfull un-true Relation 2. In these points of difference about Church-government and worship you should have presented your selves rather to the Assembly than the Parliament and if you consult the Ordinance by vertue of which you are Members you will find it more conformable to have first propounded your doubts to the Assembly and if the Assembly could not have satisfied you then afterwards you had an allowance of giving in your Dissents with the grounds of them to both Houses As to that passage Your having hitherto laine under so darke a cloud of manifold misapprehensions which you make the ground of first presenting your selves to the Parliament by this Apologie How does this agree with what you write in page 24 And we found many of those mists that had gathered about us or were rather cast
upon our persons in our absence began by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause And if at your first appearing so many of those mists and in so great a measure were vanisht then surely by that time your writ this Apologie all might have been vanisht and scattered But let me aske you Whose mis-apprehensions doe you understand you lay under that you present this Apologie to the Parliament and appeale to them Doe you meane you have laine under the darke cloud of the manifold mis-apprehensions of the Parliament 〈◊〉 or of the people of the Kingdome Certainely not under the darke cloud of the mis-apprehensions of the Parliament They are too great and wise a Body to be guilty of manifold misapprehensions of you Besides what Ministers have had the sunne of their favour shining upon them more then your selves You all have been made Members of the Assembly by them called to preach before them upon their publike solemne occasions and some of you employed in extraordinary services But if you understand the mis-apprehensions of the body of the people why doe you present this Apologie to the Parliament what would you have them doe for you or how shall they free you from the darke cloud of manifold misapprehensions I suppose you doe not expect that the Houses should set forth a Declaration to cleere you five neither make an Ordinance that whosoever mis-apprehends you and your wayes shall be reputed ill affected to the publike though M. S. your new great friend sets the brand of malignancie on them who are against you Why doe you then appeale to them in respect of the misapprehensions of the people or trouble them with so triviall a matter Doe you not know the people will mis-apprehend persons and opinions though plainely and fully laid downe which yours never yet were And indeed for any cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions you have hitherto laine under you may thanke your selves and never appeale to the Parliament to be a refuge and Asylum for your mistaken and mis-judged innocence whenas according to your owne confessions in this Apologie going in a new and different way from all the Reformed Churches you have never yet declared what you hold and what not neither have answered the Bookes written against your way but have reserved your selves And yet whereas you pretend a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions as the ground in this way first to present your selves and to appeale to the Parliament And 't is a usuall phrase in the mouthes of your party to put off arguments with that you are mistaken I know not for mine own part and some others of my bretheren wherein any of you have been mis-apprehended by us but we have so farre judged of you as to goe by no other rules but your known practises and your letters and other manuscripts given and sent out to your followers and from what some who are of your own Churches and your familiar friends have held out and pleaded for as your Principles together with what we find in the printed Treatises of them of new-New-England the New-England way being generally taken to be your way and I heard Mr Bridge since this Parliament openly affirme it for himselfe and others we agree with them of New-England and are of their Church-way And Mr Burroughs hath said so too As for the first presenting your selves to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome had it not been for the reasons given you above I should not have spoken against it but seeing you have appeal'd unto them unto them ye shall goe 〈◊〉 unto the Parliament as the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse and withall the most sacred Refuge and Asylum for innocence I appeale too humbly desiring them if their great affaires can spare any time to read this Antapologie with the Reasons I above two yeareâ—… since presented to the House of Commons against your Helena of Independencie and your Diana of toleration Meane time I cannot but stand and wonder that you knowing and acknowledging the Houses to be the Supreame Judicatory of the Kingdome c. how you had the face to presenâ—… an appeale to them in things untrue wherein many people can point to and say passages in the 25 and 26 pages are not so I heard saith one at such a Church one of the five preach of their Church-way and I heard saith another another of them at such a Church preach the like But why doe I wonder when it will appeare in the following discourse you have so much in your own cause at this time lost your selves and forgot your principles as that ye doe ascribe to the grace of God and call God to witnesse your constant forbearance of publishing your opinions by preaching c. which how untrue 't is I shall evince when I come to the 25 and 26 pages or else let me suffer And thus much for the occasion or Preface of this Apologeticall Narration The most if not all of us had ten yeares since some more some lesse severall setled stations in the Ministery in places of publike use in the Church not unknown to many of your selves but the sinfull evill of those corruptions in the publike worship and government of this Church which all doe now so generally acknowledge and decrie tooke hold upon our consciences long before some others of our brethren And then how impossible it was to continue in those times our service and standings all mens apprehensions will readily acquit us Here begins the Narration wherein we may consider the Matter of it and the Manner and way of the carriage and contrivance of it The Matter consists partly of Fact and Practise And partly of Opinions and Tenents both which all along in their Narration are interwoven within each other Their opinions and Tenents in their practises and their practises in their opinions The matter of the Narration consists of three maine parts First of their Opinion and fact before their Exile The second of their Opinions and Practises in their Exile The third of their carriage and behaviour since their returne into England from their first comming over to the time of putting forth this Apologie The Manner of carrying it all along is clothing the Narration in such words phrases and in such a way though the Church principles are laid downe and maintained in it as to make the Parliament and Kingdome believe they differ little or nothing from the Reformed Churches and from our Church now And in the things wherein there is some difference of which they give but three instances though the differences be many and so great in their account as to constitute new Churches and to forsake communion upon them yet they render them so to the Parliament and Reader as if the Reformed Churches in the differences between them could not but allow their way and practises though there
much abhorring bowing to Altars publishing the Declaration for Sports c. as you and witnessing more frequently against them in our Ministery then some of you As to those lines in the close of this Section The impossibility of continuing your stanaings in those times I confesse there was a great improbability of continuing your publike ministery in those places of London Cambridge c. But whether in some other parts of the Kingdome more remote and obscure you might not have injoyed your Ministery without an impossibility I question Neither at the first did we see or looke farther then the darke part the evill of those superstitions adjoyned to the worship of God which have been the common stumbling block and offence of many thousand tender consciences both in our own and our neighbour Churches ever since the first Reformation of Religion which yet was enough to deprive us of the publike exercise of our Ministeries and together therewith as the watchfulnesse of those times grew of our personall participation in some ordinances and further exposed us either to personall violence and persecution or an exile to avoide it which latter we did the rather choose that so the use and exercise of our Ministeries for which we were borne and live might not be wholly lost nor our selves remaine debarred from the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ which we account our birth-right and best portion in this life For some of you I judge this to be true as of Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye knowing something of the story of Mr Goodwins first comming to fall off from the Ceremonies having seen and perused the Arguments and Reasons that past between him and Mr Cotton and some others and Mr Goodwin assured me some Moneths after his going off that he had nothing to say but against the Ceremonies The Lyturgy offended him not much lesse dreamed he of this Church-way he since fell into So that is true at first he saw but the darke part and that but of the Ceremonies But for others of you as namely Mr Bridge and Mr Burroughs whose hands are subscribed to this Apologeticall Narration and this passage is spoken in the Name of you all not some or most of us as in some other passages but Wee as relating to all they did not at first see the darke part nor the evill of those superstitions namely the Ceremonies but were men judged conformable and practised conformity till the yeare of Bishop Wrens Visitation and the sending down to Norwich his Injunctions about which time and upon which occasion Mr Bridge with other Ministers of the City of Norwich being first suspended and Mr Burroughs afterwards at the Visitation and times growing so very bad that there was small hopes of admittance againe into their places upon ould Conformity Mr Bridge tooke his degree per saltum from a reputed Conformitant in the Church of England and might have continued so till this present Parliament for ought I know to fall suddenly into the Church-way without long seeing or looking into the darke part or inquiring into the light part of Church-worship and government as that short space between his suspension at Norwich and his being received into a Church at Rotterdam and thereupon his fierce Letters to some of his old friends in Norwich to come from the Church of England will fully show by which it is manifest the sinfull evils of those Ceremonies tooke not hold upon Mr Bridge and Mr Burroughs consciences till suspensions for Bishop Wrens Innovations first took hold of them 'T is confest the refusing of the Ceremonies in the places you were setled in was enough to deprive you of the publike exercise of your Ministeries in those places Especially considering the using of the Ceremonies could not preserve some of you from suspensions But the refusing of the Innovations was matter enough to silence you there But whether the simple forbearing of the Ceremonies especially having left your places and not taken others was enough to deprive you of your personall participation in some Ordinances and further exposed you either to personall violence and persecution or an exile to avoid it that I much doubt and am no way satisfied Considering notwithstanding the watchfulnesse of those times that many non-conformists did injoy not only some but a personall participation in all the Ordinances of Worship as we use to speake namely Word Prayer Sacraments singing of Psalmes and that in some good degree of peace so as to be kept out of the High-commission Court and prisons and were not put upon a necessity of exile And how ever they resolved to venture some persecution and violence to doe God some service in their own Countrey rather then to leave the Land and desert the cause of God here and so give it up wholly as it were to the enemy If all others had done as you five according to an ordinary way what had become of this Kingdome But besides this I remember some of you as Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye after ye fell off from the Ceremonies did for some space so long as you saw no farther then the darke part partake in the Ordinances here and in that of the Lords Supper too without kneeling and Mr Nye's children were baptized without the signe of the Crosse and in the sixt page of this Apologie you acknowledge that some of you even after you actually were in this way of communion baptized your children in Parishonall Congregations which I suppose you would not have done without liberty from the evill of those superstitions annexed to the worship of God And further for some three yeares space after Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye saw the darke part nay after some good time they saw the light part they stayed in the Kingdome and were both of them publike enough and preached sometimes yet free from personall violence and persecution and needed not for any personall persecution or violence they were under to have left the Kingdome And so Mr Burroughs what ever his judgement was after his suspension about the darke part and the light part was free and safe in the Kingdome till for some speeches spoken about the Scottish Warre in some company not to be trusted he for feare thereof fled in all haste to Rotterdam So that these things stumble me at the truth of these particulars that you needed not have chosen for the bare refusing the Ceremonies that which you so often terme Exile and Banishment to enjoy the Ordinances and to avoide personall violence and persecution But how ever this is held out as a fine story to the Reader yet to me there are other Reasons seeme more probable which you thought good in your wisedomes to conceale which made you chuse that which you so affect to call Exile namely that you might enjoy all the Ordinances of Christ as you use to speake whereof some of them the Reformed Churches have not and that in your Church-way of separated Assemblies
new Church-way as that he would not be married by Ministers but deferred marriage till he came into Holland where presently after his comming he was married not in the way of the Reformed Churches there but by the Magistrates according to the way of the Brownists as it is laid down in Robinsons Apologie 5. I aske What some of you whose Names are to this Apologie with other Ministers of your way who are now with God with some Gentlemen did at Missendon in Buckingham-shiere the winter and spring before you went into Holland and whether that company which went over with you into Holland were not engaged in the Church-way and principles before you left England And I aske how long it was when once you came to Viana where you setled for a time before you practised your Church-way Whether you tooke any long time of searching-out what were the first Apostolique directions before you fell to the practise of it I deny not but you might adde somethings to your Church-way after your comming over and had you stayed there till this time you had added with a witnesse of which I shall speake more afterwards 6. If Mr Bridge carried not the positive part over with him I aske whether upon the change of the ayre presently after his comming over without any great time of searching out what were the first Apostoilque directions he were not admitted a member in the Church-way and then chosen one of the Ministers of that Church at Rotterdam And whether Mr Burroughs flying over for words spoken was not quickly admitted into the Church at Rotterdam So that if these instances be true here was no great time of enquiring and viewing after Exile before you fell to practise nor no great time allotted to search out what were the first Apostolique directions patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches recorded in the New-Testament And to put it past question that you were resolved of your Chuâ—…-way before you left England at least Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye I have a Letter by me under Mr Archers hand the Pastour of their Church dated Septemb. 12 1637. which was about six weekes after landing for in another Letter from him to me he writes I landed Iuly 27. wherein he writes thus in way of an answer to a passage in a Letter of mine dated August 23. concerning his being in the Church-way As for your judgement and the worke you are about I heard of it before and have not so long stood by afflicted soberly and conscientiously ta search out the truth but have throughly seene into the bottome of it in such a measure as I am confident that in the end you will all come to us and not we to you And in the same Letter he speakes of all with him to be of the same judgement which fully shewes their engagement before they came to Holland But as to that Dilemma whether before your going into Holland or whether afterwards you fell upon the positive part of Church-worship and Government it matters not much in reference to that which followes upon it for even that which is granted by you without any question namely your stumbling at the Ceremonies and thereupon chusing Exile to avoide the possible hazard of personall violence and persecution which put you upon necessity of enquiring into the light part hath much in it of selfe to byas and to draw you to that way of Worship and Government in which you are in that so you might be provided for well and comfortably in your Exile with company and maintenance which only could be in these principles of your Church-way for according to the non-conformists-principles you could not have drawne any over nor set up your Church-way and I should in reason have thought that had you been free and not cast upon this necessity by chusing Exile as my selfe and others were in the studying of these points though in as much danger from the Prelaticall faction as your-selves you might more impartially and without preingagement have seen the truth for it is too often seen that necessity is ingens telum and drawes aside often the judgement and practises of good and wise men and so might doe yours And therefore you must pardon me if I question whether in your enquiry into the first Apostolique directions you lookt upon the word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly as men made of flesh and blood are like to doe in any juncture of time that may fall out I judge the Reformers in the Reformed Churches of Geneva Scotland c. upon many reasons some whereof are hinted by the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were like to looke more impartially and without prejudice upon the word of Christ then you they were not forced to fall on their Church-government by a necessity of Exile but having learned it from the word some of them suffered Exile for it and others resolved to hazard the utmost for it not upon every feare and imagination forsaking their people and countrey but resolving to doe the will of God and to promote his cause in their own countrey what ever it cost them And besides the first Reformers I beleeve there be many in these times who studying these points have looked more impartially upon Church-government and discipline and been freer from engagements and worldly respects then your selves and when I weigh the Reasons intimated of your impartiality and free guidance by the Spirit I am no way satisfied but they serve all to afford temptations to byas you that way you are in As 1. For the Company you went forth with both men and women were principled and ingaged in the Church-way and the company some of you went to being in the open practise of it And 2. As for the Places you went to namely Holland that gives liberty of conscience and toleration to sundry Sects which is an invitation to errours So that you had certainty of enjoying your way there 3. As for the Condition you were in which is before specified so besides one of you was not willing for some reasons he knowes best to live wholly upon his wives meanes and so needed a Church to allow him maintenance Another being in debt A third forced to fly for feare of severe punishment for words spoken left you not as freely to be guided by that light and touch Gods Spirit should by the word vouch safe your consciences as the Needle toucht with the Loadstone is in the Compasse So that if these circumstances be well considered with some others of the like nature the doore of hopes being shut up here of your publike Ministery and the meanes of livelihood to most of you and without holding and maintaining these principles there being no way of having Churches whether it is not more probable you being men made of flesh and blood as that you confesse your selves and having hearts deceitfull as well as other men may be partiall in this relation of your selves
State-ends and politicall interests namely â—…at when some great persons Lords and others should be forced through the badnesse of the times as was expected and feared to seek for shelter in Providence and Hispaniâ—…la you might be there ready to remoove with them and be taken along into those Countreyes where you hoped to set up new Churches and subdue those Countreyes and people which should come over into your mould Or if otherwise things in England should come to have a great turne as they had by this Parliament then also by being in Holland rather then New-England you were nigh hand and your estates more at command quickly to returne to England having this Kingdome in your eye hoping you might either subdue England into the way of your Church-goverâ—…ent or else gaine a great party to you 〈◊〉 the Kingdome which we see is unhappily fallen out And 〈◊〉 all the State-ends and interests to come which you might loâ—…ke upon in your remooving to Holland there were worldly râ—…spects and interests for the present to make you goe in the Churâ—…-way as I have before observed And to all these whereas yoâ—… make the having no new-Common-wealths no Kingdomes to eye to frame Church-government unto as the ground of falling upon the right way Let it be considered by you and the Reader that the framing of a Church-government according to the conjunction of a few godly persons either in a Plantation or as strangers in a Common-wealth and not considering of a Church-government for Nations and Kingdomes that when Kingdomes and Nations doe receive the faith and the Magistrates are Christians and Orthodox that there must be a Church-government as for a Nation and Kingdome is that very thing that deceives you there being alia ratio urbis ac orbis and so a great difference of governing a family two or three or of a Towne and of governing a Nation and Kingdome But as for that Parenthesis you make before you end this Section That your Governement will bâ—… coexistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Governmeâ—… on earth out of the great care you have least your Church-gâ—…nment should suffer in the thoughts of many that it is not consistent with the peace of Civill-government 't is so farre from truth that your Government and Church-way cannot stand with the peace of any forme of Civill government no not with Democraticall government much lesse Aristocraticall or Monarchicall but should it be but tolerated much more established as the government in a Kingdome and Nation we should quickly find the contrary with a witnesse In this Intervall of Church-government we feele without a formall toleration of it woefull effects opposite to the peace and good of civill government And I desire to know from you how you will proove it and we shall be assured of it for we dare not take your bare word seeing that never yet any Kingdome or Nation entertained your Church-way and government there being yet no experiment of it which of the Presbyteriall goverment hath been in Kingdomes and Common-wealths this fourescore yeares And I must tell you that in New-England which yet was farre from being a Kingdome and Nation when they began to multiply and encrease this government had like to have ruined them both in Church and Common-wealth and had they not enterposed and since doe daily the power of the Magistrate and many suitable principles to the Presbyteriall way they had been ruined before this and what yet will be the issue unlesse they fall off more and more from their Independency a little time will shew and there are Letters from thence complaining of the confusions of necessity depending on that government We were not engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And although we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in their writings and practisâ—… yet we could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our first Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine in which they had a most happy hand And 〈◊〉 had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not beeâ—… advanced and held forth among them as in this our Island as themselves have generally acknowledged We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our own Divines the good old Non-conformists had struck forth in their times And the draughts of Discipline which they had drawn which we found not in all things the very same with the practises of the Reformed Churches And â—…hat they had written came much more commended to us not only because they were our own but because sealed with their manifold and bitter sufferings We had likewise the fatâ—…ll miscarriages and ship-wracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as Land-marks to forewarne us of thâ—…se rocks and shelves they ran upon which also did put us upon an inquirie into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions Last of all We had the recent and later example of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-mentioned helps of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation and among them some as holy and judicioâ—… Divines as this Kingdome hath bred whose sincerity in theâ—… way hath been testified before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his own Countrey and his sâ—…ed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and and that by sea into a wildernesse meerely to worship God more purely whither to allure them there could be no other invitement And yet we still stood as vnengaged spectators free to examine and consider what truth is to be found in and amongst all these all which we looke upon as Reformed Churches and this nakedly according to the word We resolved not to take up our Religion by or from any party and yet to approve and hold fast whatsoever is good in any though never so much differing from us yea orposite unto us It may be if you had been engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches that you had seen the order and peace in some of the Reformed Churches and had you conversed with them before you drunke in these opinions you had never been transported with them in opposition to so many most worthy Churches but to what end is this brought in with all those particulars newly mentioned in the foregoing page We had we had with that passage in the close of the last Section We had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to
beleeve as if you had and that you declined the rocks and shelves they ran upon But if you did discover those principles of the Brownists which were the causes of their divisions why doe you passe them over in silence In this Apologeticall Narration you make many a parenthesis and addition to what you are speaking of nothing so materiall nor proper to the points in hand for example In that passage immediately following these words you lanch out into the high praises of New-England in many lines as the laying downe those principles which are the causes of the Brownists divisions would have been So that I much wonder if you found them out that you past them over in silence for these might have been of great use to the Separatists themselves for the time to come and of great use to have preserved others from Brownisme who are inclining that way besides the benefit to your own party by looking upon them to prevent the like fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks in their way so that I know not how this omission of yours can be excused Besides how came it to passe that you who are the Authours of this Apologie and your Churches made no better an use of all your enquiry and discovery but in the time you were abroad to fall into the same fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks namely the same divisions and sins nay greater and worse then some of the Separatists Churches did as ever I heard For proofe whereof I have been informed both by word of mouth and Letters from good hands of these following particulars In Holland there were but two Churches of your way and communion one of which was at Rotterdam where Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson were members and afterwards Mr Burroughs which Church of Rotterdam like the old Separatists at Amsterdam split into two Mr Sympson at first and some others after him renting themselves from Mr Bridges Church to the great offence thereof Mr Sympson setting up a new-Church Mr White the Merchant and his wife only at first joyning with him Mr Sympsons Church being founded by a woman Mr Bridge himselfe heretofore telling me so and calling Mrs White the Foundresse of that Church And after this great rent and setting up a Church against a Church under Mr Bridges nose Mr Ward Mr Bridges colleague and old friend at Norwich was deposed from his Ministery and office for frivolous matters and some differences by Mr Bridges Church And here if I should but relate all the maine passages that fell out between these Ministers and their Churches after this Renting and Deposition within the space of a yeare following namely the Letters sent into England each for themselves and against each other all the stories told of one another and all the bitternesses and revilings between the Churches of Mr Bridge and Mr Sympsons with the desperate scandalls and reproaches cast out especially upon Mr Bridge the Readers eares would tingle and I should be too long especially because I must touch upon this string againe when I come to that story related in the Apologie page 16. The other Church was first at Viana then at Arnhim of which Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye were Teachers concerning which Church if I should but relate all the strange conceits and opinions held and practised in that Church besides some preach't even before Mr Goodwins and Mr Nye's comming back to England with all the differences and divisions that fell out I should make this answer too large I will for the present relate these few passages reserving the rest till I put out aâ—… Rejoinder upon their Reply to this Answer Anointing the sick with oyle was held in that Church of Arnhim as a standing ordinance for Church members for others had no right to that ordinance as laying on of hands was a standing ordinance for Church Officers There was a writing amongst them in many hands prooving it to be so and there were some cases propounded with what oyle the sicke members of the Church were to be anointed and there was a resolution of the case namely with Olive oyle A copy of this writing some Ministers of the Assembly have perused and one of them hath it amongst his papers in the Countrey Mr Goodwin did anoint a Gentlewoman whose name I conceale when she was sick and she recovered after it they say A Gentleman of note in that Church one of those two so much commended in the twentieth page of this book for wisedome and piety did propound in the Church that singing of Hymnes was an ordinance which is that any person of the Congregation exercising their own gifts should bring aâ—… Hymne and sing it in the Congregation all the rest being silent and giving audience now upon the propounding of this another Gentleman did oppose it as not judging it an ordinance to whom the former Gentleman replied that he destroyed in opposing this what he had built up whereupon words passing between them a difference grew between these two Gentlemen and this second Gentleman was complained of to the Church by the first and upon hearing the whole businesse and all words that past between them this second Gentleman was censured by the Church and Mr Nye charged sin upon him that was the phrase in many particulars and still at the end of every charge Mr Nye repeated This wis your sin After this censure so solemnly done the Gentleman censured brings in Accusations against Mr Nye in severall Artiles charging him with pride want of charity c in the manner of the censure And this being brought before the Church continued in debate about halfe a yeare three or foure dayes in a weeke and sometimes more before all the Congregation divers of the members having callings to follow they desired to have leave to be absent Mr Goodwin ofâ—… profest publikely upon these differences if this were their Church-fellowship he would lay downe his Eldership and nothing was more commonly spoke among the members then that certainely for matter of Discipline they were not in the right way for that there was no way of bringing things to an end At last after more then halfe a yeares debate not being able to bring these differences to an end and being to come into England they had their last meeting about it to agree not to publish it abroad when they came into England hoping that God would give some opportunity when they came into England to make an end of it which whether it be ended yet I doubt much because of some speeches reported to me spoken by one of these persons concerning the other two Now if this Church of Arnhim consisting of Ministers moderate and wise standing upon their credits and reputations and of prime Gentlemen and pick't Christians being in exile and leaving all for their consciences as they say doe yet run into such strange conceits and breake among themselves thus what can be expected of Independent Churches here that may consist of raw and fiery
spirited men and of the vulgar and all kind of spirits But before I leave this passage of yours concerning the Separation pray let me aske you the reason of this Parenthesis and to whom you speake it whom ye call Brownists and why could you not have writ who are commmonly called Brownists Is it not to both the Houses of Parliament to whom this Apologie is presented and to whom you appeale your discourse being carried as spoken to them and does not this phrase of speech carry with it a secret checke of the Houses for calling the Separatists Brownists calling them so as you would not call them But who are you that you may not speake for so much as concernes this in the language of both Houses if both Houses call them Brownists Why may not you Five terme them so but we may guesse the Reason Mr Browne and your Principles are too nigh a kinde and you feared lest you might be called so but let me tell you though the Reformed Churches may not be called disgracefully Calvinians as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland have well observed in their late book yet the Separatists and all Sectaries may fitly be termed from the Authours and so the Separatists justly called Brownists because as he was one of the first Leaders in that way so he was the first that digested that way into forme and method and writ so for it and the first that visibly and openly drew so many out of this Kingdome beyond the Seas and therefore both Houses of Parliament and others too may truly terme those who goe in Brownes-way Brownists As for that last passage in this Section that last of all We had the recent and laâ—…er example of the wayes and practises of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation c. which without so many words you might have said New-England but that on purpose you would take an occasion of extolling them to the Heavens and so render both your selves and way in them more glorious both to the Parliament and people into whose hands your Apologie should come Sure you might more truly and ingeniously have put them in the first place and have writ First of all We had the recent and later example of New-England which wrought to my knowledge with some of you very much and that the purposes and intentions of some of you were first for New-England as you may remember some of you told me One of you marrying a wife in reference to your going to New-England and how farre he was hindered or altered by her death he knowes Another of you having sent over goods before and in particular books where he meant to follow after I have a very bad memory if these things be not so A third namely Mr Simpson when he desired his dismission from that Church at Rotterdam he alleadged that as a cause that he was intended for new-New-England but I must examine the Encomium made by you here of New-England and see whether to make it hold the words must not have the allowance of that figure in Rhetorick called Hyperbole the first part of the praise is Multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation Are the godly men in New-England so many in number that they are almost the number of another Nation that they doe almost make such another Nation as England then New-England hath more godly persons in it then old England for the multitudes of godly persons amongst us are not almost so many here as to make another Nation but it will be found that granting all the men in New-England were godly which yet you dare not affirme seeing multitudes live there without the Church who are not accounted visible Saints yet what are they to so many people as are in England reckon up all the persons in New-England good and bad and list them and they will be found not to come almost to the number of the Nation that lives in London nay hardly to come to the twentieth part there What are they then in New-England to this whole Kingdome and then doe but substract all that are not of their Church and it is evident your affection is better to new-New-England then your Arithmeticke and in this particular that Proverbe of Almost must help you But shall I give you the reason of this stretching here 'T is to possesse the Parliament and Kingdome what a great party you have for your Church-way Almost another Nation in New-England and Almost another Nation of your way in old England which may serve to ballance your opposite party of Presbytery in England and Scotland and therefore the Parliament shall doe well to take notice of your Numbers to grant you a Toleration at least of your Church-way lest you being such multitudes should c. I could tell stories what some of your way have spoken if they might not have their way but I shall spare them now The second part of your praise of New-England is And among them some as holy and judicious Divines as this Kingdome hath bred That there are holy and good Divines among them whom I truly love and honour I acknowledge but I judge this too transcendent a phrase and more then befits the words of sobernesse Some as holy and judicious as this Kingdome hath bred It had been an expression high enough to say as holy and judicious Divines as any you now know in this Kingdome but to say as this Kingdome hath bred how know you that and how can you affirm it You were not acquainted with many who lived before being all young men to speake of so that there might be before your times men more judicious and holy and if we may judge by the works of some men and by their lives written and by the reports from good hands of the godly ancient Ministers there were men more judicious and learned then any now in New England as Whitaker Reynolds Brightman and others and more holy as Mr Greenham Mr Banes old Mr. Dod c. But for the holy and judicious Divines of New England there are not above three or foure at most were ever accounted so eminent I might say but two and yet the present age hath Divines in England to compare with them both for learning judiciousnesse and piety so as you needed not to have gone backe to the ages past Take the prime man of them all in new England and yet he is not to be accounted as judicious and learned as ever any this kingdome bred Doctor Whitakers never held any opinion that was accounted erroneous nor any private peculiar opinion but what was commonly held in the Church of God as it is reported in his life but the most eminent Minister in new-New-England though he be an excellent and worthy man hath had his errours and I referre you for proofe to his Discourse about clearing the Doctrine of Reprobation which is in some of your hands
with his being deceived for a time in the businesse of M Wheelwright and Mistris Hutchinson and some of those opinions about Sanctification evidencing Justification and to some other manuscripts and printed things about the Church-way where there are many things of wit and fancie more then of deep judgement The third part of your praise rises so high as 't is hardly to be paralel'd The sinceritie of them of New-England in their way restisi'd before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his owne Country and his seed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and that by sea into a wildernesse c. Certainly some Independents then must write their Chronicle or else their sincerity will not be so testified to all the world neither will they be so famous to all succeeding generations It is well that in this high praise of them who went to New-England there was some exception and that Abraham their father was excepted how ever in the instance you presently give of their undertaking you secretly preferre the men of New-England before Abraham for Abraham went by land and not by sea and not many thousand miles distance nor into a wildernesse But I am not satisfied in the truth of this undertaking for New-England but am of the mind there both have been and are greater undertakings besides Abraham and his seed after him namely that of Moses and Aaron carrying the people out of Egypt and leading them through the wildernesse to Canaan of Nehemiah and Zerubbabel in building of the Temple besides the present undertaking of the Parliament for Reformation in Church-government and worship against the Papists Prelates and Malignants which you had seen when you writ this Apologie was farre greater and is testified before the world and will be to all generations to come farre beyond that of New-England 'T is strange to me you should thus forget your selves to make the undertaking of New-England to be the greatest that ever was in the world but that of Abrahams But thus partiall we see good men are apt to be for their own party and even starke blind in their own cause And as I am no whit satisfied in this third particular of your praise of New-England so nor in the truth of the thing that you affirme they went to New-England for namely meerely to worship God more purely whether to allure them there could be no other invitement For that which was first held out and most spoken of in the beginning of that Plantation in New-England was the hopes of converting the poore Indians There were some Ministers of note and others who dealt first in that businesse and were prime actors in it that propounded that and really intended it as Mr White of Dorchester Mr Humphreys and I am forgetfull if I have not read some things printed to that purpose As for the worshipping God more purely if your words could bare that sense or you understood them of being freed of the Ceremonies and of Episcopall government that was some part of the designe and ayme though not meerely that but if by worshipping God more purely be meant the worshipping God in the Church-way and the Church-government pleaded for in this Apology it was not in the thoughts of them who were the first movers in it or of the Ministers who were sent over in the beginning as is apparent by a Letter of Mr Cottons sent to Mr Skelton a Minister upon his falling into the Church-way after he came over wherein Mr Cotton writes to him that he went from England of another judgement and tells him how this came about namely from them of New-Plymouth who were Mr Robinsons people and further unto many who went over to New-England after the first and second yeare there were other invitements then meerely worshipping God more purely some of them concluding peremptorily this Kingdome would be destroyed and there would be a hiding place as also the great commendations of the Countrey and Land for subsistence many being low in their estates here led many into a fooles paradâ—…ce who finding all things so contrary to the high reports given out and their expectations have had leisure enough to repent since And some of you who to my knowledge intended for New-England yet when you came to understand better what a hard Countrey it was would not be of the number of them whose sincerity should be testified before all the world and unto all generations to come by going to New-England to worship God more purely when to allure you thither there was no other invitement And now after all this large narration of your falling off from the dark part and of your inquiring into the light part and the story of your impartial looking upon the word of Christ and of your consulting with reformed Churches and looking upon the old Non-conformists and observing the Separatists together with the examples of new-New-England you plainely come in the close of this Section to declare that for which all this was written namely to possesse the Reader of your freedome and un-ingagement notwithstanding all this to take that way or every thing in each way that was truth whereas you would insinuate that other men who differ from you were not so free nor un-engaged But how likely this is and how un-ingaged and free you were I desire the Reader to remember what presumption if not proofes I have already brought to proove the contrary As for those two Parenthesis brought in of the way of New-England namely those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-montioned helps and that all which we looke upon as reformed Churches To the first of these I say 1. It is a high confidence and presumption to judge the wayes and practises of a few in new-New-England to be better and more refined then of all the reformed Churches in Christendome 2. What ever the Edition and refinement of new-New-England is they made little use of all the forementioned helps named by you to attaine unto it few of them consulted with reverence the reformed Churches c. But the maine ground of their improvement to this new Edition and great refinement as you terme it was their consultation with them of New-Plymouth as appeares both by Mr Cottons Letter and by other relations To the second I can judge no other reason of inserting it here nor of calling the way of New-England in that first Parenthesis a better Edition and greater refinement then of any of the reformed Churches but onely that we may understand in what sense you took that part of the Covenant to be brought to agreement with the best reformed Churches that you meant and accounted new-New-England the best reformed Churches and so satisfie your consciences in taking that branch of the Covenant whereas we looke upon the reformed Churches those of France Scotland Holland c. who are
of this they make things accidentally evill according as this is things are or are not ordinances and meanes of salvation Baptisme is no baptisme unlesse it be administered by a Minister A Minister is no Minister unlesse cal'd by the Church and so I might speake of other things By all which it will appeare that Mr Simpson had thoughts and doubts and would have others have such thoughts too that we have neither Churches nor Ordinances nor Ministers according to his definition of a Church and to the matter contained in his letter and in the close of his letter though he writes I meddle not with judging of these things with you but propound you a rule or way to judge of things by I dare not say your Congregations are not Churches but desire you to looke that they be so for your owne peace yet it is evident by what he sayes in his letter that he accounts neither our Churches nor our Ministers true and would stumble him in these things to whom he wrote I have a manuscript entituled a Treatise of the Church going under the name of one of these Apologists and a godly Minister from whose hands I had it assured it me it was his In which Treatise there is an answer to this question But suppose Saints live in a Nation wherein there is some kind of a Church constituted already may they gather themselves into a Church The Answer is as followes 1. If you suppose that there are Churches in England yet such as never were truly members of any of them are free to begin and gather themselves into a Church and to be of the best Institution they can this libertie we under the Gospel have which the Jewes had not 2. Although they are Churches yet we â—…re not to continue in them and not remaine from them 1. In that they are Churches defective in some Ordinances as namely Prophecying mutuall admonition excommunication 2. They are Churches defiled in our judgements in which communicating we cannot but be defiled now though they be Churches as a leprous man was a man yet being defiled we cannot communiâ—…ate with them and so in regard of our use now no Churches and in the same page it is added we may be kept from joyning with the true Church and yet not withdraw from these as no Churches but as no Churches of use to us Now I appeale to the Reader what he can judge of your profession in the sixt page and of these passages in your letters and manuscripts and as some of your hands are contrary to this profession so your workes are contrary to it in forsaking the communion of our Churches and ministerie and in drawing others away and in writing to many to come to you and in setting up Churches and pray deale ingeniously once in your Reply seeing you ever held and doe now much more that our Assemblies are true Churches and our Ministers true Ministers how you can satisfie your owne consciences and us from any Scripture ground either of precept or example to separate from us I am assured you cannot produce any ground and that all Scripture instances whether in examples or precepts will never come up to your practise and case But Brethren why will you in a Narration that should be plaine that all who â—…unne may reade it deale thus fallaciously amuse the Reader with your profession of our Churches and Ministerie in such generals and never declare what you hold particularly of them Few Readers unlesse some who have throughly studied your principles and distinctions being never the wiser for your profession I must therefore of necessity English your words and tell the meaning of all this That is neither the Church or Churches of England nor the Ministery thereof as they are in their frame and constitution according to the Lawes and as they are in their visible order are true Churches or true Ministerie But now so farre as in many of our Parochiall Congregations there is something common with what you hold about a Church and Ministerie so farre true and not Antichristian As for example you hold that in some Congregations we have many visible Saints and in some Parishes Ministers chosen by the people which Ministers preach and pray according to your way but for what we else practise in our making of Ministers in our formes of prescribed prayers c. So no true Churches nor Ministerie And that this is your meaning will appeare by what followes 1. Letters and speeches of some of your way who write not so warily as you show so much Mr Batchelour a member of your Church-way in printed letters of his dated from Rotterdam September the 4th 1641. both to Ministers here in London and to Citizens speakes thus in reference to you And whereas it is beleeved they are friends to separation this I can assure you that they denie not the Churches in England such as M. Calamies and M. Goodwins in Coleman-street to be true Churches And why M. Goodwins and M. Calamies but because they were chosen by the Congregations and there are many visible Saints in those Congregations and so others of your way having been reasoned with how according to your principles That there is no Nationall visible Church under the new Testament no visible Church but a particular Congregation and that the Essence of Ministers calling is Election by the people and that the forme of a Church is a particular Covenant with other things of this Nature And therefore considering the Church of England is Nationall and hath no such Covenant nor such a way of Ministerie how they could hold we had true Churches and true Ministers Their Answer hath been You have Implicite Churches and Implicite Ministers But if you will say you understand your words in this Section not as M. Batchelour nor as others of your way but plainly as Divines usually take Churches and Ministerie then I desire you to reconcile together all your definitions and descriptions of true visible Churches and true Ministers with our Church and Ministery of England And for further satisfaction in this point I desire you in your reply to this Answer candidly and clearely to expresse your selves when you fell to your Church-way and were to be taken for Ministers in those Churches whether you held your selves or were look'd upon by your Churches as true Ministers by vertue of your calling in England Or whether rather you were not lookt upon only as gifted men and did not some of you at least renounce and disclaime your calling in England and were made Ministers a new by the Church consisting only of people or lay-Elders at the best without Ministers M. Williams in his Answer to M. Cottons letter openly justifies they held and practised so in new-New-England Now your principles agreeing so with theirs and some Stories related to me of some of you makes me doubt the same of you As for that reason you give why you never held our Churches no
which you say to be true that you held all faire correspondencie with them that might be upon other grounds for your own advantage and benefit many wayes you being strangers and they in their own countrey as also to see if you could gaine any of their Ministers to your Church-way And as for your receiving some of their members unto communion in the Sacraments that might be but to strengthen your own way and to advance that Church-principle of receiving them by vertue of their relation of membership And here I desire to put two questions to you 1. Whether in receiving some members of the Dutch Churches who desired to communicate with you you put them upon professing themselves to be members of their Churches and belonging thereunto as you did the English who came to you 2. Though you received some of them unto communion in your Churches whether any of you ever received the Lords Supper in any of their Churches or in any of the English Churches in Holland who were not of your way and communion But grant all you say in all your profession of your respect and holding communion with the Dutch Churches whereby you would free your selves from the imputation of Separation and make the Reader beleeve the Brownists and you had no affinity I answer You say no more nor hardly so much as Mr Robinson writ in his Apologie 25 yeares since of those Reformed Churches page 10 11. Now for the way and practise of our Churches we give this briefe and generall account Our publike worship was made up of no other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches doth consist of As publike and solemne prayers for Kings and all in authority c. the reading the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament Exposition of them as occasion was and constant preaching of the word the administration of the two Sacraments Baptisme to Infants and the Lords Supper singing of Psalmes collections for the poore c. every Lords day For Officers and publike Rulers in the Church we set up no other but the very same which the reformed Churches judge necessary and sufficient and as Instituted by Christ and his Apostles for the perpetuall government of his Church that is Pastors Teachers Ruling-Elders with us not lay but Ecclesiastique persons separated to that service and Deacons And for the matter of government and censures of the Church we had nor executed any other but what all acknowledge namely Admonition and Excommunication upon obstinacie and impenitency which we blesse God we never exercised This latter we judged should be put in execution for no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light as whether it be a sin in manners and conversation such as is committed against the light of nature or the common received practises of Christianity professed in all the Churches of Christ or if in opinions then such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity and the power of godlinesse professed by the party himselfe and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sins to be the subject of that dreadfull sentence In this Section you give us a Narration of the way and practises of your Churches Wherein in the beginning you tell the Reader We give this briefe and generall account But how much better had it been and more proper to have given a full and particular account here then in your other parts about new-New-England and the Reformed Churches in Holland A full and particular account of the way and practises of your Churches had answered more the nature of such a Narration and would have satisfied all men but why did you in the most materiall part give such a briefe and generall account knowing that under brevities and generalities there lies much mistake and deceit And let me tell you this briefe and generall account falls short of your way and practises and either you had bad memories in your writing this Apologie about the parts of your worship Officers and censures to forget some of them or else you have on purpose conceal'd them holding out the bright side of the cloud namely what the Reformed Churches practise but hiding the back which is so much the more justly to be excepted against because as you set down the words and give the account they are not true but I can say and make it good too your publike worship was made up of other parts then the worship of all other Reformed Churches namely of Prophesying in your Congregations and for Officers and publike Rulers in the Church you set up others then the reformed Churches namely Widdowes And for the matter of government and censures of the Church you have executed others besides Admonition and Excommunication namely deposition of a Minister and confession of offences publikely and orderings of solemne Fasting for Humiliation upon confession of sins as your selves relate the story in the 16th page and one and twentieth besides you hold other censures of the Church the Sentence of of Non-communion with Declaration and Protestation to all other Churches as appeares by your own relation page 17 18 19. For publike worship that you exercised prophecying I could name unto you who of the members have prophecied at Arnheim and upon what subject but I spare them I could tell you how Mr Bridge and Mr Sympson fell out upon the point of Prophecie as Mr Bridge informed me and of the exercising of Prophesie in Mr Sympsons Church at Rotterdam as well as at Arnheim I could out of manuscripts produce how arguments are framed to draw away people from our Churches upon this ground as being defective in some ordinances namely prophesying And besides prophesying I propound it to you whether some of you have not held out some other publike worship then the reformed Churches hold namely Hymns and annointing the sick members of the Church with oyle As also whether a little before your comming over into England some members of the Church of Arnheim did not propound the holy kisse or the kisse of love to be practised by Church-members Nay whether by some persons in that Church was it not begun to be used and practised And in this enumeration of the parts of publike worship I desire to know why you put in c. and what is meant by c. for that implies more parts then you enumerate And we know c. is a dangerous and suspicious phrase ever since the late Canons and Oath for under that c. may be meant Prophesying and Hymnes and Annointing with oyle and the Kisse of love and many other parts which the reformed Churches practise not and so your publike worship may be made up of many other parts then the worship of all other reformed Churches and that there is great cause to speake thus and doubt appeares because I know not nor cannot reckon up any other part of publike worship
in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
also that the rules which we gave up our judgements unto to judge those we received in amongst us by were of that latitude as would take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other at all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by We tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with us or adverse unto us And Churches made up of such we were sure no Protestant could but approve of as touching the members of it to be a true Church with which communion might be held And having answered generally I come now to the particulars brought to make this third principle good and shall shew how little there is in them to make good that they are brought for To your first instance of chusing the better part and to be sure receiving in none for members of Churches but such as all Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull 1. To speake nothing now of that how in Churches there may be a receiving to some of the ordinances and so to be under the care of the Ministers a receiving of others that is there may be members to a part and there are members as to all the ordinances and so according to the first there may be a promiscuous receiving and mixture for which I can give good reasons and instances as in children catechumenists but must not handle at large every point now which your Narration hints aâ—… 2. In your admission of members you chose not the better part nor the safer To goe on the hand of charitie and love is the better part and safer hand which charitie if you looke into the 1 Cor. 13. hopes the best thinkes no evill c. And a man had better receive some of whom there may be some doubt and feare then discourage and refuse any of Christ little ones which both your principle and practise hath done abundantly in New-England and in England But here in your Narration you deale fallaciously in stating the question For the question is not about receiving in none but such as all Churches in the world would acknowledge faithfull but about receiving in all and refusing none whom the Churches had no reason but to acknowledge faithfull For according to your words laid downe and as you would carry it to deceive the Reader with of receiving none but such as all Churches would acknowledge faithfull you might receive in but a few of high forme Christians whom also all the Churches in the world would not as some hold the ballance acknowledge to be faithfull and so you might receive in but a very few And it is evident by your practise that many whom all the Reformed Churches hold fit to be received having a competent knowledge of God Christ and themselves and live free from all scandalous and grosse sins and outwardly practise duties both to God and man even multitudes of these you will not admit nor doe not into your Churches And as to that just and true profession you are able to make That the rules you gave up your judgements unto to judge those you received in amongst you by were of that latitude to take in any member of Christ c. I must tell you this is like some of your just and true professions before namely unjust and untrue this is neither the first nor the last unjust and untrue profession in your Narration and I shall make it good both by your practises by some rules laid down by some of your selves Mr Goodwins letter in answer to Mr Iohn Goodwin grants they require of men to admission into their Churches that they know what belongs to Church-fellowship and doe acknowledge the same and approve thereof with other things of that nature now whether this be a rule of that latitude that will take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other as all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by I appeale to your owne consciences That holy Martyr Bradford with many more not only the least but great starres in the firmament of the Church never knew nor dreamt of what belong'd to your Church-fellowship and I am confident that M. Goodwin M. Bridge my selfe with many others many yeares after wee were members of Christ and conversed together in Cambridge as Saints yet understood not what belonged to this Church-covenant and Church-fellowship and this is such a rule that multitudes of the godly in this kingdome carry not in their bosomes to judge others by nor would not themselves be judged by nor never heard of such things till your times And if your rules were of such a latitude as would take in any members of Christ the meanest whence came it to passe that in New-England so many men in whom the godly have presumed to be something of Christ and who are you to judge the contrarie have not yet been admitted and amongst many other instances that might be given in your owne Churches I will name one Mistris Symonds a modest humble woman many years well reputed of in England of godly Parents wife to a godly Minister who though her husband was received a member of M. Sympsons Church and then chosen the Pastour yet his wife could not be received into the Church along time and whether yet she be I know not I have been told also from one who lived in those parts that after M. Sympson upon rending from M. Bridge had set up a new Church one who was upon his tryall for admission into M. Sympsons Church was openly asked by a prime man who had a hand in that rent what his judgement was of the Brethrens libertie to prophecie and if the man had not been right in that point it might have hazarded his Membership And that the Reader may not be abused nor amused with such kind of passages but that it may appeare what ever here you say you have other rules and require other things of men to communion with you pray satisfie us What was the reason and what is the matter that when M. Iohn Goodwin fell to your principles and way so many godly persons of his owne Parish could not be received in by him as Church-members nor accounted so without yeelding to some rules and conditions which they being members of Christ and some of them nâ—…ne of the meanest could not condescend unto As to that you say You tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with you or adverse unto you I appeale to your consciences if my selfe or some others whom you have accounted godly should have declared their opinions adverse to your Church-covenant and other of your Church principles and yet being in Holland should have desired for the time to have been
a particular Church exceeding the number of them who may ordinarily meet together in one place for the worshipping of God and the sanctification of the Lords-day which if it can be proved overthrowes M. Robinsons M. Cottons definitions of Churcheâ—… and your principles who all keepe to this as to a foundation upon which is built many of your other practises For we know at first the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches were not more numerous then to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation neither could it be expected that all should come in at first and we know for many other Churches the Scriptures doe not so particularly relate the growth and accessions of them But if any one instance can be given it is not materiall whether first or last sooner or later whether in the beginning middle or end of the story for then your Positions and assertions of a particular visible Church are overthrowne for one affirmative overthrowes a universall negative And I aske of you whether you take ordinarily here as opposed to extraordinary or take ordinarily for commonly as opposed to rarely and seldome now if you meane it in the first sence that the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches that may be instanced in their case was extraordinary and though the Apostles suffered them to grow so ranke and numerous yet we may not doe so now I desire to know of you then what is become of your first generall rule the Primitive patternes of Churches erected by the Apostles and I desire to know what râ—…le you walke by and whether the first constituted Church of all were not likely to be the patterne for constituted Churches seeing Primum in unoquoque genere est regula mensura reliquorum But if you meane ordinarily in the second sence as that there is but one only instance the most if not all other Churches were otherwise that you see will not by what I have above written helpe you besides what ever you can probably alleadge that the Churches of these times should be conformed to such Churches which consisted of no greater number then to make one particular Congregation I will give more and better why the Churches of a Nation and kingdome should be conformed to that of Hierusalem As for those phrases of yours which you bring in by way of caution and clearing the way of your government within your selves that you claime not an Independent power to give no account or be subject to none others but onely a full and entire power compleate within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely Whilest in these first lines you denie Independent power in words yet in your latter words you grant it claiming a full and entire power compleate within your selves which is Independent power and is the full sence of that which hath been fasten'd on you by us and I will shew it more fully in the proper place when I come to the 23. page especially if you take upon you to enjoy it so long untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely I had thought it had been enough upon your being challenged to erre to have given an account but belike it must be erring grossely I suspect something lyes under this as under many other of your phrases whereby you evade and hide your selves stating points wrongfully Pray what doe you account erring grossely and whether doe you judge any thing erring grosly in your particular Churches but such kinds of sins in manners and such kind of opinions as are against the Churches knowne light and the common received practises and principles of Christianitie professed by the Churches themselves and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sinnes to be the ground of giving an account as they are not of Excommunication with you page 9. both being of equall latitude sins of particular persons to a Church and the sins of a particular Church to a Communitie of Churches and if that be your meaning you shall be Independent enough And then further I demand of you how you can use those phrases of not claiming a power to be subject to none others I confesse you may better use those words of giving account holding counselling and advising by sister-Churches but as for that phrase of subjecting to none others I understand it not what censure will your Churches subject unto from other Churches will they yeeld to the deposition of their Ministers Excommunication of their members c. or how can there be any subjection to other Churches in your principles the phrase being taken properly and usually when as all along you pleade against authoritative Presbyteriall power so oft exprest in page 15 16. and is the great point in controversie in this instance betwixt you and the Presbyterians How oft doe you denie the subjection of a particular Church to all other Churches and are against all subjecting to censures yea to be subjected as to counsell and advices from the other Churches As to that phrase your owne Elders whereof you had three at least in each Congregation whom you were subject to in which you seeme to hold out the government and power of the Church to lie in the Elders and not in the body of the Congregation I desire you to satisfie me in this point whether all of you hold the power and authoritie to be in the Elders or in the Church and whether by goe tell the Church is meant tell the Elders or the bodie of the Congregation and whether according to the principles of the Church-way in M. Robinsons workes and the bookes of new-New-England and M. Bridges owne letter unlesse some of you have lately seene another light you might have truly written three Elders at least in every Congregation to whom the Congregations were subject or else three Elders who were subject to their owne Congregations and this shall suffice for answer to the first head of the five concerning the third Instance To the second head under this third instance what you are not satisfied in nor cannot allow 1. About particular visible Churches That you could not imagine in every City where the Apostles came the number of the converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations 2. About the government of it that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authoritie over those Churches they teach not c. In both these you deale fallaciously and relate the controversie to your advantage and our disadvantage For the first whereas had you dealt ingenuously your words should have been these for that in any Citie where the Apostles came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations you
are so many as they cannot meet in one place but have more meeting places yet in imitation of the Scriptures giving that ground to some who have askt them a reason they make City Churches but one and the Ministers are Ministers in common of them all preaching in their courses in the severall meeting places and governed in common and this they doe to keep nearest to Apostolicall practise whereas now in the Countrey where villages are and the meetings are scattered they doe not all preach to all And to adde this further to shew your unsafe way of practising in the way of your particular Congregations over the reformed Churches and our Churches in England your Congregations as in London where the meeting place is and the Ministers reside is made up of members as of some living in London so of some in Surrey Middlesex Hartfordsheire Essex where they have fixum domicilium being twenty miles asunder and many members meeting but sometimes in a Moneth where neither Ministers can oversee them nor members watch over one another not knowing what the conversation of each other is which yet are brought as the maine grounds for your Church-fellowship which non-residencie of the members from one another and of the officers from so many of the members whether it overthrow not and be not point blank against many of your principles of the Church-way I leave to your selves to judge besides that it is without any Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles the Churches being still stiled according to the places where they lived and met as in Rom. 1. 7. To all that be in Rome beloved of God called to be Saints And so in the Epistles to the Corinthians To the Church of God which is at Corinth And I desire you to give me any Primitive patterne of any who belonged to the Church of Rome Corinth Ierusalem that is were standing members of those Churches who lived and inhabited ten miles twenty five miles c. round about those Cities so that we find here in this third instance namely in the government and discipline of the Churches as well as in the first instance in the qualification of your members that the additament is on your sides and not on the reformed Churches To the third head namely the reasons couched and hinted for your own practise and against the practise and way of the reformed Churches to the first reason I answer as the relating of the state of the questions was not proper so this argument hinted here is not properly expressed for their might be such a Presbyteriall Church and government as is maintained against you namely but two or three distinct meeting places and yet not Churches rising to such a numerous multiplication nor Apostles staying to the setting up of Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication But pray what doe you meane by those expressions We did not imagine but might you not or could you not have imagined it though you did not nor would not and what by this that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to make such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination Doe you carry the words in reference only to that numerous multiplication or simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay so long in any City as to set up any Churches at all Now if you will have your words interpreted in the first sense then judge how improper the speech and narration of your mind is for then it should have gone thus that the Apostles should stay the setting up of so many Churches untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication for the denying the setting up of any Churches and at all agree not with the following words untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication the former being a diminitive nay a negative and cannot agree to such an augmentative as the latter besides your first words carried in reference to the following have no strength to proove what you bring them for namely what you allowed and practised or what you disallowed for though the Apostles should not stay so long as the setting up so many Churches as might arise to such a numerous multiplication of severall and sundry Congregations yet there might be such a Presbyteriall classicall Church a Church consisting of more then could meet in one place which is the controversie between us But if you understand your words simply and positively that the Apostles did not stay the setting up of any Churches at all I desire you to remember your own principles and expressions in many books and discourses of your way that the Apostles were the founders of the first Churches as at Corinth Rome and for Ierusalem especially which is the particular Church we most stand upon the Apostles staid long enough there to set up not onely any Churches at all but many to make such a Presbyteriall combination as is stood for as will appeare both by Acts 8. Acts 15. Acts 21. and it is the judgement of Mr Robinson that Ierusalem was never without some of the Apostles there which the two first chapters of the Galathians give a strong ground for besides the many Presbyters that belonged thereunto And so for the Church of Ephesus Paul stayed at one time in those parts three yeares together long enough to make so many Churches as might make a Presbyteriall combination which that of the Acts chap. 20. vers 17 18 25 28 29 31. doe give hints enough for if the nature of an answer to a Narration would permit to draw them out at length To the second reason hinted that those precepts Obey your Elders and them that are over you were to be sure meant of the Pastours and teachers set over them in each particular Congregation respectively and to be as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in those commands Wives obey your own husbands c. I answer that in Scripture a particular Church consisting of more Congregations then one and the Ministers and Elders feeding them and governing them in common as at Ierusalem and as it is in the Low Countries in Cities there as at Amsterdam c. all the Ministers and Elders are their own Ministers and Elders as the husbands are the owne of their wives and those Scriptures are to be understood of all their Pastors and Ministers and not of some only or in respect of some and not of the rest and it is as certainely the intendment of the Holy Ghost as in that command Wives obey your owne husbands that obey your Elders c. be meant not of some but of them all 2. In Churches by their combination consisting of many Congregations where ordinarily some Pastors and teachers feed some Congregations and not the rest Ministers being fixed some to that Congregation and others to other Congregations yet there being a government in common by all the Presbyters of
as they see just ground the controversie were at an end 4. The Corporations that is those in place and power if they proceed unjustly are accountable to the State they live in that is to a higher civill power and adjudged themselves in cases of wrong condemning the innocent suffering delinquents to escape but your Corporations of particular Congregations even in case of reall Administration are against all judging and all Ecclesiasticall Authoritative power out of your own Congregations To the fifth Reason hinted by you to strengthen your practise that it was safe and allowed and the Reformed Churches more questionable namely appealing to them who have read books whether much hath been written with strength setly and directly to prove that government but rather to overthrow Episcopall and to maintaine those severall Officers in Churches which Christ hath instituted and therefore you inferre you might have more ground to question this government of combined classicall Presbyteriall government I answer the ground of that is fully laid down in the Reformation of the Church of Scotland page 17 and 18. with an account of what hath been written and done by the reformed Churches in France for the Presbyteriall way and against the popular Independent way which is more then you once in this Reason hinted but suppose that in former writings of Calvin Beza Zanchius Peter Martyr Danaeus Iunius Zeppâ—…rus Gersom Bucerus Dr Reynolds Parker there hath not been much setly and directly insisted on and with strength to prove the government of Synods and Classes though in some of these more especially as against the Church of Rome and Episcopall government much strength is brought for the government by Synods and Classes yet that which those Divines of Scotland Holland England have written of late against the Independent congregationall government might have been enough to have satisfied you and that 's not materiall that no more have written seeing out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established and if these books had not strength to satisfie you why have not you all this while answered them but I must mind you of forgetting one of your own Divines for besides the learned Licensers booke against Independencie another booke was written cald Reasons against the Independent government of particular Congregations and the Toleration of them in this Kingdome which booke in your seeming to take no notice of I beleeve you remember above the rest and in the 25 page of your Apologie it appeares you remember it but the Authour of it belike is none of your Divines And in the close now of this answer to your Reasons hinted about the government and discipline of the Church why you in your Congregationall way should be in the truth but the Presbyteriall government was a question to you and judged an additament because the Presbyterians allowed you what you practised and granted what you held but themselves held and practised over and above I answer this is no Argument at all for by the same reason the Samaritans should have worshipped God truly but the Iewes falsely and the Samaritans might have said to the Iewes as you doe to the Presbyterianns the five books of Moses which we owne to be sure they are from God you acknowledge them but for the books of the Prophets that 's a question which rests upon you that allow what we hold to make evident and demonstrate and so the Iews may now by the same reason speake against the Christians and say we are in the safer way to be sure we practise safely for you Christians confesse what we hold namely Moses and the Prophets to be the Scriptures but for the new Testament that is to us a question and an additament which therefore rests upon you Christians to make good who beleeve and practise over and above us And whereas the common prejudice and exception laid into all mens thoughts against us and our opinions is that in such a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grossâ—… no reliefe for wrongfull sentences or persons injured thereby no roome for complaints no powerfull or effectuall meanes to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into heresie schisme c. but every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their own eyes we have through the good providence of God upon us from the avowed declarations of our judgements among our Churches mutually during our exile and that also confirmed by the most solemne instance of our practise wherewith to vindicate our selves and way in this particular which upon no other occasion we should ever have made thus publike God so ordered it that a scandall and offence fell out between those very Churches whilst living in this banishment whereof we our selves that write these things were then the Ministers one of our Churches having unhappily deposed one of their Ministers the other judged it not only as too sudden an act having proceeded in a matter of so great moment without â—…nsulting their sister Churches as was publikely professed we should have done in such cases of concernment but also in the proceedings thereof as too severe and not managed according to the rules laid downe in the word In this case our Churches did mutually and universally acknowledge and submit to this as a sacred and undoubted principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches that as by vertue of that Apostolicall command Churches as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Iew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live amongst So that in all cases of such offence or difference by the obligation of the Common Law of communion of Churches and for the vindication of the glory of Christ which in common they holdforth the Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence or complaint of the person wronged to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches offended thereat of what ever hath given the offence And further that by vertue of the same and like law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the impenitencie of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of with-drawing and renouncing all Christian communion with them untill they doe repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all other Churches of Christ that they may doe the like And what further authority or proceedings purely Ecclesiasticall of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending either the Scriptures doe holdforth or can rationally be put in execution without the Magistrates interposing a power of another nature unto which we upon his particular cognisance and examination of such causes professe ever to submit and also to
and censured and shall condemne and judge those Churches for renouncing communion as too severe and declaring thus to all other Churches against them what must be done in these cases will these Churches censuring now acknowledge their offence and revoke their sentence of Non-communion or if they will not what must these Churches protested unto doe in this case must not they passe the sentence of Non-communion against them and if they doe so what if these Churches censuring shall also pronounce the heavie sentence of Non-communion even against these Churches protested and declared unto Now that these things and worse may not and will not fall out cannot be denied which things as to the neighbour Churches among themselves will be great occasion of schismes and continuall differences so will they minister matter of great scandall to all other Churches and of tryumph and evill speaking unto enemies all which will be easily prevented and remedied in the Presbyteriall government Sixthly Two or three Churches or more of your Independent way living amongst other Churches as you did in Holland or if your Congregations should be tolerated in England according to your desire you may hold this principle of submission to one another and yet all agree in holding some errours with which errours you may infect many of the members of the Presbyteriall Churches for which you will not question one another what remedie or meanes is there now to reduce your Churches or preserve ours Seventhly Some of your Churches by vertue of this principle that Church or Churches challenged to offend or differ are to submit themselves upon the challenge of the offence to the most full and open triall and examination by other neighbour Churches may be ever and anon unjustly calling upon some of the Churches to submit and challenging them first with being offended by them least themselves should be challenged to have offended and so as we speake call whore first and also they who are challenged to offend to be even with them will challenge them againe and what must be done in this case and who shall interpose to determine these differences or may both parties judged thus by each other to be offenders determine against one an other Eightly If Churches must thus submit to trials and examinations these being the acts of whole Churches here will be nothing but trials and examinations and censures one upon another and this instead of a sufficient remedy is like to proove a continuall vexation and molestation to neighbour Churches Ninethly What must be done in case one Church or more take offence unjustly at others and trouble them thus to call them to open examination c. what satisfaction must be given to the Church troubled and examined Tenthly In this principle of submission of Churches suppose that upon a hearing the Church offending will not redresse the grievance or relieve a person injured But goe on and slight communion with other Churches the persons injured in the meane time are debarred from the ordinances and cannot remove their dwellings without manifest ruine of their families how doth this help such persons injured or is a sufficient remedy for wrongfull sentences c. Whereas now in the Presbyteriall way if such a Minister or officers who are the cause of this may be deposed and acts passe against them and others placed in their roomes this will remedy and redresse it And so suppose a Minister of note fall into heresie and errour and draw the most of his people after him so that he cannot be deposed by the Church what good will the non-communion pronounced against this Church by other Churches do for reducing them but now if this Minister may be deposed and an orthodox Minister put in to preach the truth here is a powerfull meanes to reduce and preserve Eleventhly Let me aske you and pray determine it from the Scriptures in case two or three Churches offended doe challenge a Church or Churches offending who yet upon submitting to a hearing will not yeild to the counsell and advice of those Churches who how where after what time and how many meetings and after what manner must this sentence of non-communion be denounced against this Church or Churches whether must it be denounced in and upon the place where they meet to heare and examine or in the meeting place of each of these Churches offended or must these Churches offended meet in one of their meeting places to pronounce it together and who must be the mouth and who by warrant out of the Scriptures hath the power to pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion and how must it be made known unto the offending Churches with other things of this like nature To say no more now this principle of non-communion is so farre from being a sufficient remedy for miscarriages or a reliefe for wrongfull sentences or a powerfull means to reduce a Church or Churches c. that 't is a remedy worse then the disease and if it should be practised would be the ground of many schismes separations mischiefes in the Church of God and that amongst whole Churches so that it were farre better particular persons should suffer wrong or particular persons fall into schisme and be left to their liberty then whole Churches suffer those evils which your principles of non-communion Declarations Protestations would undoubtedly produce as the Reader may judge by what is here written For the second your practise according to this principle occasioned upon an offence that fell out in your Churches I shall shew that as insufficient as your principles and shall animadvert upon the most solemn instances of your practise As for the Introduction into your relation of the scandall and offence I readily assent unto you had you not judged it for the advantage of your selves and way you would upon no other occasion have made it thus publike for you are good at concealing of all your principles and practises but when and where you may further and propagate your way For the story it selfe as it is related by you it is very short and generall neither expressing the Ministers name deposed nor the causes of his deposition nor the first occasion of the differences nor the way the Church took before they deposed him nor the manner how they proceeded nor how long he stood so deposed so that the Reader cannot well tell what to make of it for want of a more full particular relation or how to judge whether your principle of submission of Churches and your practise here laid downe upon it was so proper and so sufficient a remedy and so effectuall a course as you boast of in page 20 21. I must therefore of necessity in reference to the disprooving and weakning of what you would inferre from your sacred principle and supreame law of submission and the more solemne instance of your practise wherewith to vindicate your selves and way in this particular and that it may appeare it was but a
halfe slight late and partiall remedy to the offences and scandall relate the story more at large and then make some queries upon it and your solemne practise thereupon and then I shall leave it to the Reader to judge whether your principle of submission be comparable to the way of the combined classicall Presbyteriall government The Church in which this offence fell out was at Roterdam of which Mr Bridge and Mr Ward of Norwich old loving friends and both flying upon the same cause Bishop Wrens Innovations were the Ministers and the Minister deposed by the Church was this Mr Ward who for appearing and siding against Mr Bridge in some particulars and for his preaching of Sermons in the Church at Roterdam which he had preacht before in his Church at Norwich and for his giving too much heed to the reports of simple people and old wives tales was thus deposed but I cannot so fully cause the Reader to understand matters without relating the first difference between Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson the true ground and rise of this latter offence Mr Simpson one of the Authours of this Apologeticall Narration after some time of beholding the order and way of this Church at Rotterdam desired to be admitted a member and was upon his confession c. received in but not long after what were the true reasons he best knows he disliked some persons and things in that Church and he stood for the ordinance of prophesying to be exercised in that Church that the people on the Lords dayes should have lâ—…berty after the Sermons ended to put doubts and questions to the Ministers c. and he was troubled at a ruling Elder in that Church brought in by Mr Bridge which belike had more power and bore more sway then himselfe who as Mr Simpson in a Letter to a Minister in London complaining of the difference between him and Mr Bridge writ how that Elder was in that Church over all persons and over all causes but Mr Bridge opposed Mr Simpsons prophesying upon so the rationall grounds of inconveniencits as himselfe told me the story which were too long to relate yet he yeelded so farre that the Church should meet on a weeke day and then they should have that liberty but this would no way satisfie Mr Simpson whereupon the difference increased and there were sidings but Mr Bridges power was the greater to carry things in the Church and so Mr Simpson would abide no longer but quitted that Church though he had no Letters of dismission from that Church and with the help of a woman whom Mr Bridge called telling me the story of things between them the foundresse of Mr Simpsons Church set up a Church against a Church consisting but of five persons at the most in the beginning whereof the woman and her husband were two but this Church of Mr Simpsons increased as being extolled for a purer Church and for more ordinances but Mr Bridges Church was cried downe for ould rotten members and for the want of prophecie and so the fire of contention and difference grew more and more between Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson and their Churches Now Mr Ward Mr Bridges colleague sided with Mr Simpson stood for prophesying and though Mr Simpson had left that Church yet Mr Ward in that Church was for Mr Simpsons way whereupon by occasion of that and for exercising his gifts no better but to preach his old Sermons he had formerly preacht at Norwich and believing of tales giving so much way to reports he was deposed by that Church Amongst 17 or 18 Reasons of Mr Wards deposition a godly learned Minister who had seen them in writing told me these were the most materiall And now upon Mr Simpsons rending from the Church and setting up a Church against a Church under Mr Bridges nose and upon Mr Wards deposition from his Ministery and Mr Simpsons Church increasing in fame and number but Mr Bridges decreasing and some others rending themselves away and upon wicked reports raised about Mr Bridge there grew that bitternesse evill speakings deep censurings deadly feauds amongst these Ministers and their Churches as never was more betwixt the Iews and the Samaritans Mr Bridge confessed to me there were no such sharpe tongues nor bitter divisions as these Letters from all three were sent into England both into City and Countrey against each other Mr Simpson dispacht many Letters into England against Mr Bridge as to Mr M. Mr B. Mr H. Mr R. c. and Mr Bridge against Mr Simpson Mr Bridge and Mr Ward writ many Letters one against the other particularly to Norwich and among other many sharpe Letters were sent to a D of Physick about the differences and upon their comming over into England they told sad stories for themselves and each against other Mâ—… Bridge laid these bitter differences and reports so to heart that they were a great meanes of her death and whether Mr Bridges weaknesses and distempers were not occasioned by the divisions and the wicked scandalls unjustly I beleeve raised upon him as well as by the aire of Rotterdam Mr Bridge knowes best And thus much for the particular relation of the scandall and offence that fell out in that Church of Rotterdam as it hath been related to me from good hands from some who have lived in Holland and as I had part of it from Mr Bridges own mouth and some of it from Letters of Mr Simpsons written into England and from other men of credit who have seen Letters and relations written from thence Now from the relation of this story and your practise upon it I shall propound these queries which will give some light to judge whether there was any sufficiency in your course to remedy and redresse things amisse in Churches and betwixt persons offending 1. Whether your Churches did agree upon and tye your selves to this principle of submission and the sentence of non-communion at your first setting up and comming into that place of exile or did you first acknowledge it and were willing to submit upon the occasion of the scandall of Mr Wards deposing and that great clamour upon it both in Holland and England 2. Whether did you then or doe you now acknowledge that principle of submission to all other neighbour Churches as well as to them of your own way as namely to the Presbyterian Churches those English Churches at Amsterdam Hague Utrich c. and would you have submitted to those Churches to have so proceeded upon offences and differences amongst you 3. How long was it was it not for the space of betweene a yeare and two that Mr Ward stood deposed and laid aside from his Ministery and maintenance before he was restored and if so was not this a late remedie and iâ—… it so in Presbyteriall government 4. When and at what time was this principle of sâ—…bmission and your solemne practise both of â—…equiring the Church offending to give an account with their châ—…arfull submitting
complaints and appeals now the Presbyterians in that give the Magistrate a power about the use and abuse of Ecclesiasticall discipline and Ecclesiasticall Causes and businesses yea and definitive to namely a politicall objective consequent power which may be diversly exercised both ordinarily and extraordinarily in a Church constituted and in a good estate and in a Church fallen and corrupted Voetius in his disputations upon that question In whose hands the Ecclesiasticall power is a great Presbyterian in that question grants and gives to the Magistrate a publick judiciall power of judging not onely with the judgement of knowledge but definitive in causes and matters Ecclesiasticall which judgement is consequent not antecedent because the ultimate disquisition is not in that whether that be true but whether they will by publicke Authoritie maintaine and execute that So * Apollonius in his Answer to Vedelius where he strongly pleads for the Presbyterians in that point of Ecclesiasticall power yet gives much to the Magistrate ordinarily in a Church constituted and well reformed in the point of this part of power and extraordinarily in the state of a Church corrupted and greatly disordered when the doctrine is corrupted and the Sacraments contaminated with idolatrous rites and discipline turned into tyrannie and when the Ministerie and all Ecclesiasticall meetings both inferiour and superiour conspire to oppresse the truth of God and to establish tyrannie in the Church in such cases the Magistrate may do many things besides the ordinary way now let me entreate you to consult the books of the Presbyterians and especially Apollonius answer to Vedelius of the severall particulars of the power of Magistrates about the use and abuse of discipline in a constituted Church besides the power given them in extraordinarie cases and in your Reply to this Answer satisfie me what you give more But let me tell you whatever power you five may have found out for the Magistrate which the principles of Presbyteriall government will not suffer them to yeeld some new power may be like that devise of Non-communion of Churches and Protestation to all Churches that they may doe the like yet your Churches may not grant it and so the Magistrates shall be never the nearer the power you give the Magistrate in the 17. and 19. pag. is not yeelded by many of your own Churches whereof you are Ministers A Gentleman a prime member of one of your Churches immediately after the comming forth of your Apologeticall Narration disclaimed and renounced that power of the Magistrate exprest by you in the hearing of a Minister a member of the Assembly who related it to me But what is it wherein you give more to the Magistrates sure there is something you meane and aime at in it if we could find it out suffer me to guesse at it and you shall see though you doe not formally expresse so much yet I have some reason to judge so First Doe you not meane in this phrase the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld that your Church-way consisting all of particular Congregations and not growing into great bodies by combinations and Synods the Magistrates power is greater over you in that he may easily deale with you and dissolve you at pleasure but for a power to grow into so great a body an Ecclesiasticall power as large as the civill so combined this may be formidable and dangerous to the State and too great for the Magistrate hereafter to rectifie this hath been by an active Independent upon discourse of these points suggested to me and how farre one of you hath reasoned thus in the hearing of many against Presbyteriall government and for Congregationall you can remember Or secondly Doe you understand by this phrase that when heresies schismes or strange opinions are broacht in your Churches and you cannot tell what to doe with them nor how to suppresse them nor how to have the persons censured being so powerfull in particular Congregations whereof they are members in such a case you give the civill Magistrate a power to question them for these heresies schismes and to imprison banish c. if they doe not revoke them New-England practising the way of Independencie and not having Classes Synods that have authoritative power to call to account and censure such persons were necessitated to make use of the Magistrates and to give the more to them a power of questioning for doctrines and judging of errors and punishing with imprisonment banishment and they found out a prety fine destinction to deceive themselves with and to salve the contrariety of this practise to some other principles that the Magistrate questioned and punished for these opinions and errors which now for want of Ecclesiasticall discipline and censure they knew not what to doe with not as heresies and such opinions but as breaches of the civill peace and disturbances to the Common-wealth which distinction if the Parliament would have learned from you and proceeded upon they might long agoe have put downe all your Churches and Congregations and justly have dealt with you as the Magistrates in new-New-England did with Mr Williams and the Antinomians Familists and Anabaptists there and yet have said they punished you not for your consciences nor because of such opinions but because your opinions ways and practises were an occasion of much hurt to the Common-wealth a breach of civill peace a great cause of many people sitting so loose from the Parliament a great hinderance to the Reformation and a ground of much distraction to the publike and of strengthening the enemy whereas the Presbyterians give the power in cases of heresies errors c. that are not remedied in the particular Congregation to Classes Synods Assemblies to question convince judge of censure and to apply spirituall remedies proper to spirituall diseases which I am confident of had such been in New-England in the Presbyteriall way there had never beene so many imprisoned banished for errors nor the Magistrates put upon that distinction Or thirdly Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall which the Presbyterians principles doe not as now in matters of doctrine and in matters of scandall and in matters of censures excommunication deposition c. which are brought before and have past in Ecclesiasticall Assemblies to appeale from them to the civill Magistrate and to carry causes from thence to civill Courts to repeale and revoke them Your words and passages about the Magistrates power imply this and I find that many quick sighted men as the Walachrian classis nay a whole Synod after them in their late Letters to the Assembly apprehend you so and therefore I may upon good grounds judge besides the two former that you aime at this third in saying you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians
and vigour are sensibly increased the Lord be praised And besides these letters the thing it selfe speakes for whereas in England he was not able to preach nor had not hardly three times in three yeares after he came into Holland he was Pastor of the Church at Arnheim and preached constantly and had that strength to beget a sonne whereas he being married many yeares in England never had any child And not only from him but from others also there have been many letters sent to commend the places where you lost your fellow labourers to be so healthfull and pleasant as to resemble them to Bury in Suffolke and Hart ford As for that high praise of those two worthy Ministers as precious men as this earth beares any I thinke it becomes you not they being yours and of your way and cannot be interpreted by the understanding Reader but that you take occasion here as in all other places of your Apologeticall Narration to magnifie and cry up your own party the more to make people to be in love with your way which had as precious men as this earth beares any but I judge it is too high and hyperbolicall for though I dearely loved the men and doe acknowledge they were precious and beleeve they are gone as that great Divine said in his sicknesse he was going where Luther and Zuinglius doe well agree yet I must needs correct that phrase as this earth beares any For I am of opinion that both in learning and piety they were inferiour to some not only in the earth which is wide and spatious containing Churches and Ministers more pretious then you know of but in this earth of England and Scotland and your Encomium of them if you remember what you writ before of some pretious men alive now in New-England as ever this Kingdome bred and granting that New-England is the earth doth amount to this that these two Ministers Mr Archer and Mr Harris were as pretious men as ever were in England which you must pardon me if I doubt it for I beleeve Whitakers Reynolds Baynes Greeneham Dod Brightman with many more were more pretious As for that other instance Your selves comming hardly off that service with your healths yea lives I have not heard of any great sicknesses any of you five had there excepting Mr Bridge who came hardly off with his health Some of you indeed had Agues there which you might have had in England in Suffolk or in Oxfordshire and for Mr Bridges sicknesse I judge it was as well occasioned and strengthened upon the unhappy differences and bitter divisions between him and Mr Simpson and Mr Ward and their Churches and the wicked reports raised upon him which discontented and troubled his spirit as by the distemper of the place or change of the aire and for others of you how fat and well liking you came backe into England and how all of you returned well clad and shining beyond most of us who lived alwaies in England many can witnesse and have spoken of it all which were no great signes either of the many other miseries the companions of your banishment nor of the comming off so hardly with your healths and lives When it pleased God to bring us his poore Exiles backe againe in these revolutions of the times as also of the condition of this Kingdome into our own Land the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie whereof had been no small part of that publike worship we offered up to God in a strange Land we found the judgement of many of our godly learned bretheren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from ours in some things wherein we doe professedly judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves And it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of schisme in us from them be thought that they comming new out of Popery as well as England and the founders of that Reformation not having Apostolique infallibilitie might not be fully perfect the first day yea and it may hopefully be conceived that God in his secret yet wise and sacred dispensation had left England more unreformed as touching the outward forme both of worship and Church-government then the neighbour Churches were having yet powerfully continued a constant conflict and contention for a further Reformation for these foure score yeares during which time he had likewise in stead thereof blessed them with the spirituall light and that encreasing of the power of Religion in the practique part of it shining brighter and clearer then in the neighbour Churches as having in his infinite mercie on purpose reserved and provided some better thing for this Nation when it should come to be reformed that the other Churches might not be made perfect without it as the Apostle speaks Having Apologized for your selves and way in your principles opinions practises and carriage towards all sorts both before your exile and in your exile here in this section you come to Apologize for your selves and for what you have done since your comming back into England both before the Assemblie and since the Assemblie untill the time of putting forth this present Apologeticall Narration which beginning in this section is continued by you in the following sections to the 30th page But brethren why doe you in the beginning of this part of your Apologie give your selves that name of Gods poore Exiles was it not enough to have said when it pleased God to bring us backe againe into our owne Land but you must call your selves Gods Exiles and poore Exiles I wonder you tearmed not your selves poore pilgrims But the reason why you name your selves so here and in this Apologie take occasion so often to speake of exile and banishment may easily be guest at namely to commend your persons and way the more to the people and for want of better to take them with such popular arguments as suffering a grievous exile Thus in many other passages of your Apologie you bring in and insert many such kind of phrases to worke with the people the more but doe insinuate many things against the Presbyteriall way as of engagements publike interest c. But let me a little examine whether you five can fitly be stiled Gods poore Exiles I thinke to speake properly you neither were Exiles nor poore for you were not banished nor forced out of your owne Laud neither by being brought into the High-Commission Court or by Letters missive and Attachments out against you as ever I heard but excepting M. Burroughes who fled in haste as being in dangers for words spoken you went at your own times over into Holland with all conveniences of your Families and other companie Among the Greekes Fuga was called exilium and so you flying out of the kingdome in that sense may be cal'd exiles but how ever in some sense
you may call it exile because you did flie out of your owne Country though none persecuted you to shun persecution before it came as foreseeing possibility of danger yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles for you were rich Exiles who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance as to be able some of you to spend 200 or 300. lb. per annum and to doe other expensive acts which for present I forbeare to name And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place maintenance friends but how they can be called poore Exiles that enioy wives children friends full and liberall maintenance annually liberty of callings with all pleasures and delights as much or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage and accomodatons in these kinds goe with their families into another Countrey can these be called Exiles Suppose a Minister who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established or wanting a liberall maintenance or fearing the warre should goe over to Roterdam Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there where he shall have better meanes can this Minister be stiled a poore exile Now I leave you and the Readers to make application As for those words Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land I know God permitted it and ordered it but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it for the dividing of the godly party here and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us and Brethren let me speake sadly to you not out of passion but out of long and serious deliberation it had been good for you and for us that you had continued exiles still and that neither you five nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in mercie till the Church and government had been setled I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are As for that Parenthesis the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land I will not gaine-say it onely let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own land again in peace and safety to our persons and the other when we had least dependencie on this kingdome or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace Now take away faith hope endeavors will much cease this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land for my part I had much hope of the kingdom when things were at worst and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction and of the revolution of the times God was pleased so to support my spirit that I expected and waited as men doe for the light of the morning when that every day God would arise and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly learned brethren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from yours in some things that was no marvell I wonder you could expect it otherwise being but a few young men of yesterday and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches But I must tell you you found not onely the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation but the judgement of them all who were in publike imployment and of any great account to differ from yours not onely in some things but even in your whole Church way how ever that since by your presence and your politick way of working and the strong streame of popular applause running that way some few Ministers uncertaine heady inconstant wanton-witted men are since come off to your way but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves I answer they may doe so and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect though not of the first Reformation as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there whose name I have been entreated to conceale least it might much prejudice him there but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge that in your sence in the things excepted against by you the Reformed Churches particularly that of Scotland need not a further Reformation namely to come to your principles of Democracie Independencie Libertinisme and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame And as to that that it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie they might not be fully perfect the first day I answer they never thought so neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day but the reformed Churches particularly the French-Churches had many Synods Assemblies and Colloquies where points of government and order have been further debated cleared and Canons added and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government which is the perfection spoken of here by you above twenty yeares Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France Scotland and Holland have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them and against their owne way and that both of old
and now of later yeares Scotland of old having been troubled with the Separatists and the Churches of France by Morellius against whom Sadeel did write and Beza in his Epistles writes against that principle of the power of the people that nothing is ratified except the people present by their expresse suffrages doe decree it and against private mens prophecying in the Church and of late though the controversie be growne so high yet Divines both in Holland and Scotland as your selves confesse have writ against your way and can see no light Iâ—…m it and in a generall Assembly of Scotland since our Parliament the point being moved and debated there it was concluded against by the whole Assembly nemine contradiconte as a Letter written from that Assembly to many Ministers in the City which I heard read at a meeting testifies neither are any of the Reformed Churches yet satisfied by all that hath been written about your Independent government nor our present Assembly by all they have heard from you after so many dayes speaking for your way So that what the Reformed Churches stand for now is not as comming new out of Poperie and so wanting light as you assert and therefore though they had not Apostolicke Infallibilitie yet they might well be in the right for Church-government and therefore the Reformed Churches and the Church of England too judging of government now after above 80. years comming out of Poperie and after hearing all that hath been said and that you can say now after almost a yeares sitting in the Assembly They yet judge Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be the true forme of Church-government against your Independencie so that now the ground you going upon being taken away you cannot without great prejudice to the Reformed Churches so peremptorily judge them as you doe in this place of your Apologie And as your practise cannot be without prejudice to them and the imputation of Schisme in you from them to set up new Churches and divide from them upon these grounds so this passage of yours here against all the Reformed Churches cannot avoyd the suspition of great arrogancie and pride to proclaime your selves to see more then all the Churches in worship and government and to judge them so 'T is a high presumption that five such young men as you are and no deeplier studied should thus proudly and tanquam ex tripode so magisterially conclude against all the Reformed Churches Certainly had you had the humilitie of many of Gods servants you would rather have feared and questioned whether you might not have been mistaken in your grounds and therefore modestly have propounded your doubts to the Assembly to have resolved them rather then before the points ever came to be debated in the Assembly in such matters where you goe against the common streame of all Reformed Churches to have thus professedly peremptorily and resolvedly both in this Section and in the next pag. 24. determined the questions And brethren let me friendly mind you who are you five of what standing reading graces to take so much to your selves and to be so peremptory that you should see that which all the Reformed Churches doe not nor are not able by any of your Arguments nor what else is extant to see or be convinced of But as for the close to this part of the Section concerning the Calvinian Reformed Churches that it may hopefully be conceived that God left England more unreformed as touching Government and Worship then the neighbour Churches were c. It is a strange speech and savours of a strange high conceit of your owne way of Independencie and of your great light and abilitie in this Assembly where the Church of England is to be reformed and to speake plainly the English and sence of all these lines is this That it may be hopefully conceived that God in his secret yet wise and gracious dispensation hath all this long time for above 80. years left England more unreformed and of his infinite mercy on purpose reserved it for this present Assembly that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. might bring a new light in Church government and order and so Scotland and the Neighbour-Churches might be new-moulded into their way But how ever some of you are men of strong fancies and all of high confidences of your owne opinions and wayes yet I beleeve you will be deceived at this time how ever you may comfort your selves and Churches with the hopes of prevailing at another time saying that Presbyterie shall fall as Episcopacie hath done after it's time one of that way for want of arguments having used such words to me and that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. will not be able to effect what they desire and hope for but it may be rather hopefully conceived that in stead of the reformed Churches comming to them these five members of the Assembly at last with others to upon this glorious Reformation will be brought to joyn with other reformed Churches according to the solemn Covenant and oath themselves have entred into We found also which was as great an affliction to us as our former troubles and banishment our opinions and wayes wherein we might seeme to differ environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and our persons with reproaches Besides other calumnies as of schisme c. which yet must either relate to a differiâ—…g from the former Ecclesiasticall government of this Church established and then who is not involved in it as well as we or to that constitution and government that is yet to come and untill that be agreed on established and declared and actually exist there can be no guilt or imputation of schisme from it That proud and insolent title of independencie was affixed unto us as our claime the very sound of which conveyes to all mens apprehensions the challenge of an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependence or rather a trumpet of defiance against what ever power spirituall or civill which we doe abhorre and detest or else the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us Although upon the very first declaring our judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged that we differ much from them And we did then and doe here publikely professe we beleeve the truth to lye and consist in a midle way betwixt that which is falsely charged on us Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I desire you to resolve me and the Reader how the first sentence in this Section Your opinions and wayes environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and your persons with reproaches can stand with those words in the 24 page We found many of those mists that
had gathered about us or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence begun by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves and cause And now if upon your presence only and that without speaking a word they vanished and were scattered how did they then vanish upon speaking for your selves and way and then how could this cloud of mistakes c. so easily blowne away by your breath nay without your breath be so great an affliction to you certainely you are men very tender of any mistake misapprehension or reproach upon you but I thinke it may be salved by your comparison as great to us as our former troubles and banishment both much alike great that is neither of them But what meane you by that parenthesis wherein we might seeme to differ did but your opinions seeme to differ from ours and doe they not really why then have you and doe you make all this adoe in our Church as for your opinions and wayes environed with mistakes and misapprehensions I know nothing for my part hath been fasten'd upon your wayes but what hath been found in letters manuscripts your known practises and in printed books of new-New-England and in the discourses of your own members and familiars But if some men who have not studied the points nor given themselves to understand your way did mistake and misapprehend you that was your own fault that walking so in the darke and having been so often desired to give a Narrative of what you hold in difference never yet would As for the calumnies east upon you of Schismes Independencie and Brownisme with the reasons inserted to vindicate your selves from them I shall first give a generall answer to them together and then to each of them apart 1. In generall how ever you doe in words wash your hands of these imputations and wipe your mouthes confidently denying them yet all the water in the Thames will not wash you from all just imputation of these It is no new thing for men who goe in bye wayes and maintaine errors whether more fundamentall or superstructory to abominate the names and titles given to those opinions whether from the Authors who first broacht them or from the matter of them and to deny the opinions and points charged upon them by finding out some distinctions or doubtfull words and expressions to cloud them with in which sense they wrap up themselves and deceive many and so give other names I might fill up a book in giving Instances out of antient and moderne writers of this Artifice Those who are commonly called Saracens their name is Haggarens as comming of Hagak but they would not be so called but name themselves Saracens sons of the free-woman The Schwenefeldians cal'd by Luther Philip Melancton and other famous Divines Stenckfeldians from the ill savour of their opinions yet Schuvenckfeldius entituled them with that glorious name the confessors of the glory of Christ. The Antinomians will not endure to be called by that name but stile themselves the Hearers of the Gospell and of Free-grace the old Separatists could not endure to be called Brownists or Barrowists as appeares by the title of Mr Robinsons Apologie so you will not endure the titles of Schisme Separation Independencie but you call it the Congregationall government and the Church way and an entire full compleate power but by no meanes Independent government that will not be indured As no sin will be called willingly by its own name but takes other names drunkennesse will be cal'd good fellowship covetousnesse good husbandry and providence so few errors will be called after the name of the first father or the matter simply they hold and I could give you many reasons of this amongst others take these 1. Many are possessed by books and arguments against such and such errours under such names and titles now that erroneous men may avoid all the dint of the arguments and the impressions such names and termes have left upon many they disclaime the ould and invent new words and phrases against which the people have not been possest the better to take them 2. Erroneous spirits would have nothing fixt or certaine to be fastned on them upon which able men might bring arguments and reasons against them But the reader shall see all this will not help you but that the just charge of these must lye upon you 2. To answer particularly You are justly charged of Schisme and Separation and if you consult with the Scriptures and Authors both antient and moderne Austin Calvin Zanchius Morneus Peter Martyr Iunius Perkins Parker and see what they write of schisme and separation you will be found guilty of it and as for the argument brought by you by which you would cleare your selves from schisme that it must either relate to your differing from the former Ecclesiasticall government of Bishops or to that constitution and government that is yet to come c. I answer though it relate to neither of them yet it may arise from other causes your disjunctive proposition doth not containe a full enumeration of all the causes or reasons of schisme for the non-conformists did of old differ from that former Ecclesiasticall government and yet were never justly accused of separation and schisme but writ most vehemently against it neither is schisme to be judged of upon some difference in judgement which may be from that constitution and government that is yet to come for though some men should differ from it as not holding it the best government yet so long as they separate not from the publike worship and ordinances neither doe draw people into separated Assemblies they cannot be charged with separation The ground therefore of schisme imputed to you comes as from your forsaking our publike Assemblies and separating from Gods ordinances and his servants because of mixt communion and setting up of Churches against our Church and going on still in that way notwithstanding all the Reformation begun and that which is likely to be perfected so also from not joyning your selves with the other reformed Churches But if you say that you cannot be counted guilty of schisme and separation because you doe not withdraw from us with condemnation of us as no true Churches nor true Ministers as the Brownists doe I answer you doe the same thing they doe though upon different grounds Now suppose a woman should withdraw from her husband and joyne to another ordinarily yet not with condemnation of him as no husband but would now and then keep communion with him suppose a servant forsake his Master and joyne to another yet comes away without rayling against him doth this justifie him But why make you such a businesse of it as you doe to forsake the communion of all our Churches and of all the reformed Churches and of joyning to Churches only of such a constitution if you condemned them
godly Minister of the City conferring with one of your precious Ministers about these points before he went into Holland and telling him This is Brownisme and Browne held thus what are you a Brownist Your companion and fellow-labourer answered him thus The way was of God but the man was nought namely Browne As for those words whereby you would evade the naine of Brownisme That upon the very first declaring your judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged you differ much from them 'T is not your saying so will cleare you unlesse you had named what that chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-discipline is and how and in what words you declared your judgements and to whom for you might so expresse your selves as you doe in this Apologie too often whereby you might deceive the most of them to whom you declared your judgements yea many able Ministers and Scholars who are not versed in your distinctions and reservations and yet for all the declaring of your judgements differ very little from the Brownists except in different phrases and in not deducing such consequences Let me intreate you therefore to lie no longer hid under such generals but in your Reply declare particularly what you hold the chiefe point of all Church-discipline and wherein in that you differ from them But may I guesse at the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-government and discipline wherein you declared your judgements by which you would distinguish your selves from the Brownists Is it not that you give the power and authoritie to the officers and not to the people onely I have heard that of late you have declared your selves thus and the late Epistle before M. Cottons booke written by two of you implies so much But be it so though I can out of a letter of M. Bridges and from notes and manuscripts show that seven yeares agoe the expressions of some of you were otherwise yet this will not free yoâ—… for M. Iohnson fell to this and yet was guiltie of Brownisme for all that But in this also your principles and your practises are incoherent and however in fine words and flattering similitudes you dilate upon it in your Epistle to M. Cottons late booke yet it comes much to one the substance of which Epistle I will answer in my Rejoynder to your Reply or in some thing by it selfe and will wipe off the paint and guilt and then the naked counter and rotten post will appeare As for your publick profession that you beleeve the truth to lie and consist in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I answer then Actum est de Presbyterio de Synodo You have determined the cause alreadie the Assembly may rise when they please and need sit no longer for the truth lies and consists in Independencie but I suppose though heretofore and when you wrote this Apologie you did so publickly prefesso and beleeve the truth to lie in your way the middle way as you terme it yet by what hath past since your height and courage is somewhat abated and you are not now so peremptory and I find now you write in another stile which becomes you much better We humbly suppose we humbly conceive again in all humilitie But if you be high still I must tell you your confidence hath deceived you and your middle way as you fancie it though I must still charge upon you refined Brownisme will prove like other pretended truthes lying in middle wayes just as the Catholicke and Arminian moderatours Cassander the booke called Interim and that booke of late times cal'd media via betweene the Papists and Protestants and betweene the Calvinists and Arminians And as for the way of your expression of Presbyteriall government I cannot but except at it observing that all along obliquely and as farre as you may you still asperse that You can here expresse Brownisme simply without any additions to it but you cannot passe by Presbyteriall government without a lash at it which is the contention of these times as if you would insinuate the blame of all the contentions and stirre of these times to be Presbyteriall Government whereas the truth is the contention of these times is Episcopall and your Independent Government which have caused and doe continue all the contention and stirres in Church and Common-wealth they mutually strengthning each other against Presbyteriall government and â—…o 't is still to be observed that all along in this Apologie where you speake of Presbyteriall Government you state the questions about that in the highest and utmost latitude but of your owne Church and way in the lowest yea lower then you hold as for instance in 11 12. pag. about the qualification of Church-members to deceive the Reader with your pretended moderation and the more to possesse the Reader against the jus divinum of the Presbyteriall way as for example in this place Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now the substance and summe of Presbyteriall governement may be according to Apostolicall Primitive patternes and yet all the subordinations and proceedings of it as it is practised in the Church of Scotland fitted to that Nation and Kingdome may have no Scripture examples Presbyteriall government in some Reformed Churches as at Geneva hath not all the subordinations and proceedings as Scotland being no Kingdome nor Nation and Presbyteriall government in England might have one subordination more then Scotland and some different proceedings in the manner and forme of carrying matters according to particular circumstances and occasions of time and place The Ministers of the Church of Scotland who hold their Church Government to be laid downe in the word of God for the substance and essentials of it doe not as I suppose hold that all the subordinations and proceedings as practised in their kingdome have a particular rule either of precept or example I doubt not but they well understand no whole Nation was converted to the faith in the time that the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles were written nor the supreame Magistrate in any Kingdome or Nation and therefore in no one Church or Nation where Christians were converted and Churches planted there could not be that formall combination into Classes setled Synods or generall Assemblies neither could the supreame Magistrate or a Commissioner for him be a prime member in their chiefe Assemblies and so I might instance in other particulars but the Church of Scotland find Presbyteriall Government in subordinations and appeales that is Government exercised in Churches and Assemblies which consisted of more members then could meet in one place and they find Assemblies where upon cases of difference there were more members and officers then of one Church as the Acts of the Apostles showes fully
books of others or in counselling and consenting to the printing of them especially some books from out of New-England and particularly of Mr Cottons 3. Neither I nor many other Ministers are not satisfied of the truth of those words That you have not acted for your selves and way which words as here brought in by you must be understood of acting as distinct from preaching and printing that is as you have not published your opinions by preaching so you have not by other wayes and meanes acted for your selves or way as in making friends or in mooving any Parliament men or in consulting together what to doe about your way no alas good men you have kept your houses close and followed your studies hard and seldome gone to Westminster but have left the businesse of Independencie and the Church-way to God wholly leaving him to take care of his own way and cause Brethren how dare you write thus if you have not acted for your selves and way since your returnes into England and improoved your time well too most who know you are much deceived in you and strangely mistaken And suffer me to deale plainely with you I am perswaded that setting aside the Jesuites acting for themselves and way you Five have acted for your selves and way both by your selves and by your instruments both upon the stage and behind the curtaine considering circumstances and laying all things together more then any five men have done in so short a time this 60 yeares and if it be not so whence have come all the swarmes and troopes of Independents in Ministery Armies City Countrey Gentry and amongst the common people of all sorts men women servants children have not you five had the greatest influence to cause this who have wrought so many Ministers Gentlemen and people to your way can it be in Reason thought all this is come about without your acting for your selves and way is the peoples golden Calfe of Independencie and Democracie come out of it selfe without Aarons making it And whether you five have not acted for your selves way since this Parliament I desire you to answer these questions and then according to the truth of those questions let your consciences judge of the truth of these words 1. Whether came not you over into England and left your Churches in Holland with their leave or rather being sent as Messengers to negotiate for your way and for a Toleration of some Churches to enjoy Independent government that is a full entire compleate power within your selves 2. When you were come over did you not in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting consult together and debate about a Petition and was there not one drawne to be presented to the House of Commons for a Toleration of some Congregations to enjoy a Congregationall government 3. Have you not beene all along from your first comming over into England to the writing of this present Apologie intent and watchfull upon every thing in agitation or about to passe in matters of Religion that might make though but remotely for Presbyteriall government and might though but by a remote consequence and at a distance touch upon or prejudice your Church way As for instance about the time of passing a Bill in the House of Commons against Episcopacy and of consultation and debate what should be in the interim till another Government could be setled were not you zealous and active against that advice and counsell of a certaine number of grave Ministers in each County to be substituted for the time out of your feare of having but a shadow of Presbyterian governement though but pro tempore and how much you worked in that with some of place and what the issue of that was you may remember So upon thoughts and consultations since this warre of entring into a Covenant and some Ministers being advised with whether did not some of you stand for a clause to be inserted in the Covenant for liberty to tender consciences and for want of such a clause that being opposed by some how long it was layed aside c. I desire you to remember Againe about the beginning of the Assembly in the review and examination of of some of the Articles of Religion and in the propounding but some orders to have been agreed on about the way of managing the Disputes and Debates in the Assembly how tender have you been of any thing tending but to Presbytery and that might though but indirectly reflect upon any of your Principles 4. Have not some of you though may be not all acted for your selves and way by constant Church meetings on the Lords day in private houses preaching the word and administring the Sacraments even in the times of the publike Assemblies where besides your own Church members have resorted to your meetings many other persons some members of Churches in new-New-England and others belonging to the Church of England and whereas Mr Simpson was a Minister of a Church at Rotterdam which Church is still there hath not Mr Simpson since his returne well acted for himselfe and his way in getting such a rich and numerous Church consisting of so many Gentlemen and Gentlewomen rich Citizens rich Virgins c. and hath not Mr Goodwin acted for himself and way and at least in the least attempted to encrease a party when besides those of his Church at Arnheim that came over from thence there are others here in London have gone to his Church meetings and there are some if not actually members the ceremony may be being forborne that it may be said he hath added none to his Church yet are Competentes Candidati Probationers members in fieri with their faces to Zion and reputed members actually by them of nearest Relations and Co-habitations as I am credibly enformed but must name none to prevent differences in neere Relations 5. Have not some of you if not all of you acted for your selves and way in actually speaking and moving some Parliament men to stand for you and for a Toleration of your Church way and have you not been answered shew us your grounds let us know what you hold and what you would have and then you shall see that shall be done which is sitting and out of zeale of acting for your selves and way have not some of you suggested in private to Parliament men the prejudice of their Parliamentary power if they should admit of the Government of the Church of Scotland pleading also for a necessity of a Toleration and in particular I aske Mr Nye if he remember no such discourses and that at Hull too 6. Whether have not some of you if not all out of acting for your selves and way hindred all that â—…lay in you the sending for our brethren of Scotland to come to our help and whether have not some of you much pleaded against sending for them in and objected as the Malignants doe of the danger of their comming in c and whether
wayes interposed to hinder you from being the universall Lecturers of the Citie who if they had appeared against you might have crossed it 5. The Ministers courted you by all wayes of respect and of high entertainment of you in loving speech friendly countenance familiar conversing with you giving you the right hand of fellowship and in a brotherly intreating you not to appeare for your way that so our differences might not hinder the worke of Reformation withall promising you when they had obtained the Reformation desired they should be ready to gratifie you all they could and to consider you as godly Brethren 6. Upon the Proposition and motion of silence about the points in difference the Ministers were most ready and willing to enter into a strict engagement with you and that though some of your way had been before hand with them in venting your principles amongst the people 7. There hath been much tendernesse expressed towards you and readinesse of yeelding to you all along the more to win you to prevent an open breach and to stop peoples mouthes and particularly in the Assembly of Divines where that patience long-suffering forbearing hath been exercised towards you in your often and long speaking upon points in speaking the same things over and over againe c. as would hardly have been towards any others and I may truly speake it many of our Ministers have not carried themselves towards one another with that love and respect as they have done to you 8. The Ministers have in honour preferred you before themselves and have been contented in a good sense to let you increase and they to decrease and could be so contented still for Gods glory and the good of the Church But I will particularly answer to your Provocations here alleaged and shew you that they were no Provocations to have caused you to make and increase a party by preaching c. For the 1. the common misunderstandings and mis-representations of your opinions and practises was not a sufficient provocation to preaching c. 1. because many of those mists were scattered by your presence againe without speaking a word for your selves or cause and therefore needed not neither preaching printing nor acting for your selves and way 2. You may justly thanke your selves for the misunderstandings of your opinions and practises carrying them so in the dark and putting off from time to time a Narrative of your opinions and wayes thougâ—… so earnestly desired by the Godly Ministers and you sent unto so solemnly for it as also promised by you often so that it was no fault at all in the standers by to misunderstand or mistake some things in your opinions and practises especially being new strange and hidden too 3. Although you speake thus that your opinions and wayes were misunderstood and misrepresented that being one of your usuall Artifices to delude with and to keep off arguments brought against you yet I doe not know any opinion or practise of yours misunderstood and misrepresented I know none that was written against or father'd on you but what was either to be found in some of your Manuscripts c. but of this I have spoken before For the second Provocation the Incitements to this State not to allow you the peaceable practises of your Consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed you and these edged with Calumnies and reproaches cast upon your persons in print I suppose in this you meane that booke written by me entituled Reasons against Independent Government and against the Toleration of it presented to the House of Commons for as for any other book of that nature I remember none besides you commend the other bookes written against your way and Tenets page 15. Now that booke gives Reasons and Grounds for what it writes against and you should have done well either any one of you or all of you to have answered it and had you shewed those Reasons to have been weake and unjust then there had been some colour for you to have made that a Provocation to have acted for your selves and way but by your silence you seeme to give consent to what was written against you But how ever though I writ both against your Government and the Toleration of it in this kingdome yet not against the peaceable practises of your Consciences but the unpeaceable practise of them as you would order matters in England For I spent some leaves in that book to allow you the peaceable practise of your consciences and chaulked you out a way even with the saving of your principles for which you have cause to thanke me As for my incitement to the State it was not to persecution against you for I laid downe a clear medium betweene persecution and a Toleration As for that passage which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us I have already answered that at large in my former booke and I will here adde another Answer to those I gave then the reformed Churches abroad might safelier allow you the liberty of your consciences there then this State can for there being strangers you and your Churches looked for nothing else you looked not to enjoy the priviledges of offices places in Church and Common-wealth not to be in the ranke of States Burgomasters c. but here in England you Independents will look for the like priviledges that others enjoy as to be Majors of Townes chosen Burgesses and Knights for Parliament c. whereby you will have a mighty influence and advantages to countenance and promote your way and make parties every where which must needs be of dangerous consequence to this State Now for those words and these edged with calumnies and reproaches cast upon our persons in print I answer let the whole booke be perused and let the Reader judge if the first part of the book consisting of the Reasons against Independent government be not wholly argumentative containing nothing personall but rationall and for the second part the Reasons against the Toleration let it be examined whether that be not rationall also and in many pages as full of yealding and sweetnesse as can well be with the keeping of peace and truth and could be expected in such a difference of judgement And whether also I give not in severall passages of that book to Ministers of that way due respects and fitting termes only in one page of the book in answering a popular Reason of yours for a Toleration which I had from one of your own mouthes I gave a popular answer suitable to the Argument but so as without either foule or rayling language 2. I named you not but spake as of many of your Ministers why doe you then appropriate it to your selves and I can truly speake it that for one of you five to whom application is made more especially of some thing there written I did not so much as meane or intend him but doe openly acquit him and disclaime it I deny that
godly Protestant party and of much distracting them and of making severall interests Whence have come all the rents and divisions to speake of in the godly Protestant party all the â—…ets stopps and delayes in the intended Reformation but from you and by occasion and meanes of you The authority of your names holding these opinions having the reputation of Schollars and of excellent Preachers whereby you are cryed up of many and so much followed your interest and favour in too many considerable persons have drawne so much had it not been for your sakes these rents and divisions had never come to this head there had not been that connivance nor such delayes of setling governement c. most of the rest of your way were in comparison contemptible both for name and gifts and could not have done that hurt and why then in a time by your own confession of absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction and all little enough to effect that Reformation intended and so long contended for against a common adversary that had both present possession to plead for it selfe power to support it and had injoyed a long continued settlement which had rooted it in the hearts of men have you done so much by preaching and acting to rend and divide the godly protestant party there was no absolute necessity just at that time when you did preach and stirre for your way for you to have done so affirmatives though they doe bind semper yet not ad semper there were greater truths in doctrine and in Reformation of government which you might have preached on for that time but there was an absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction I heartily with this first Reason and ground deepely layed to heart by you and then I know you must greatly repent for what you have done in this particular since your returne into England and had not God been and were he not the more gracious and better to us then ordinary your carriage and what hath been by your meanes would have spoiled our Reformation and hath done much to keepe the common Adversary in his present possession and long continued settlement but I pray God humble you for it and forgive you and seeing you knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell and that the beginning of strife would have been as the breaking in of waters why were you not contented with the giving of the first blow and the first occasion of the quarrell both by your former preaching and practising but to adde this second great blow the writing of this Apologeticall Narration which though it be not on your parts the beginning of strife yet it will prove as the breaking in of waters and as the kindling of a fire not likely to be put out in hast 2. And this seconded by the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference They having also by their Declarations to his Majesty professed their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths against Popery and other heresies and to have that respect to tender consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which hath formerly been I judge this ground seconding the former should have been powerfull with you to a deepe silence and forbearance every particular branch of it speaks strongly to you to forbeare what ever might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference Nay almost every word in it â—…s an argument to command The instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament what might not all these have wrought and then take in also that they had by their Declarations to His Majestie c. and that they would have a respect to tender Consciences Now what could you almost have wished more or what better securitie for your selves and way A man would thinke all these might have commanded you not to have acted for your selves and way and certainly your fault was the greater in doing contrary and you are the more inexcusable had not this seconded the former yet your knowledge of the first was enough to have taken ingenuous spirits but this seconding the first it is too bad that you went contrary to the instant and continuall advices and conjurement of many Honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament As for those passages inserted in this Reason the Parliaments Declarations to his Majestie professing their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths and to have that respect to tender Consciences wherein you would insinuate that the Parliament had put you in some hopes of a Toleration and that grounded upon some passages in their Declarations had you named what Declarations speake so I could have perused and examined them and have returned you an answere I question it not from the words and sense but to put it out of doubt that the Parliament intends no Toleration in such words as having respect to tender consciences c. I referre you to the first and great Remonstrance and Declaration of the House of Commons wherein they declare the contrary and ingage themselves to the Kingdome against it answering to that as a Calumnie cast upon them to traduce their proceedings They infuse into the people that we meane to abolish all Church-Government and leave every man to his owne fancy for the Service and Worship of God absolving him of that obedience which he owes under God unto his Majestie whom we know to be intrusted with the Ecclesiasticall Law as well as with the temporall to regulate all the members of the Church of England by such rules of Order and Discipline as are established by Parliament which is his great Councell in all affaires both in Church and State And we doe here declare that it is farre from our purpose or desire to let loose the golden reynes of Discipline and Government in the Church to leave private persons or particular Congregations to take up what forme of Divine Service they please for we hold it requisite that there should be throughout the whole Realme a Conformity to that Order which the Lawes enjoyne according to the Word of God And we desire to unburthen the Consciences of men of needlesse and superstitious Ceremonies suppresse innovations and take away the monuments of idolatry And the better to effect the intended Reformation we desire there may be a generall Synod of the most grave pious learned and judicious Divines of this Island assisted with some from forraine parts professing the same Religion with us who may consider of all things necessary for the peace and good Government of the Church and represent the results of their Consultations
occasion for drawing up such answers to it and you can blame none but your selves as would upon necessitie discover and lay open both matter of fact and opinions more then ever else there would have been any pretence of ground to have done it As for referring the vindication of your Persons to God and a further experience of you by men I answere that without great repentance for this Apologeticall Narration and some other practises since your returne into England in stead of Gods vindicating your Persons you cannot but expect God will visit you and whether hereafter men may have occasion to vindicate you upon further experience of you I referre that to time but for the experience they have had of you this Parliament before the writing of this Apologie and by the writing of it and since till this very day they can have no great cause of vindicating you but rather particularly by this Apologie they have matter of great offence and scandall And I judge this Apologie hath in one sence given a further experience of your wayes and spirits to men then the experience of many yeares hereafter might have done As for referring the Declaration of your judgements and what you conceive to be Gods truth therein to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly why did you not as you speake referre it to the agitation of the Assembly but write this booke just before the agitation wherein you had declared your judgements in the points controverted and let me aske you seeing you meant to referre the declaration of your judgements to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly why would you agitate the points before hand as in this Apologie in so undue and disorderly a way why would you so publiquely engage your selves in print before hand yea and peremptorily conclude the points before ever disputed as in the 22 24. pages you doe And let me tell you you had neâ—… agitate what you conceive to be truth in this cause more duly and orderly in the Assembly then you doe in the Apologie for I beleeve this Apologie considering all circumstances was borne and brought forth the most out of due time and order of any booke put forth thiâ—… forty yeares As for that clause of this Assembly whâ—…reof both Houses were pleased to make us members it might have been here spared because in the title of the book and in other places you speake of your selves as memberâ—… of the Assembly but if you added it here as by way of acknowledgement of the great favour and good pleasure of the Houses to make you so being members of other Churches then the Church of England and having received another Ministery and never purposing to be bound by the determinations of the Assembly then there may be some reason of this addition And whereas our silence upon all the forementioned grounds for which we know we can never lose esteeme with good and wise men hath been by the ill interpretation of some imputed either to our consciousnesse of the badnesse and weaknesse of our Cause or to our unabilitie to maintain what we assert in diffâ—…rence from others or answer what hath been written by others we shall with all modesty onely present this to all mens apprehensionâ—… in confutation of it That what ever the truth and justnesse of our Cause may prove to be or how slendâ—…r our abilitiâ—…s to defend it yet we pretend at least to so much wisedome that we would never have reserved our selves for but rather by all wayes have declined this Theatre of all other the most judicious and severe an Assembly of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the Piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one honoured and assisted with the presence of the Worthies of both Houses at all debates as often as they please to vouchsafe their presence as the stage whereon first we would bring forth into publique view our Tenets if false and counterfâ—…it together with our owne folly and weaknesse We would much rather â—…ave chosâ—…n to have been vâ—…nting them to the multitude apt to be seduced which we have had these three yeares opportunity to have done But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ we have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the providence of the State And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages which we could not but foresee both of number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest Trusting God both with our selves and his owne truth as he shall be pleased to manage it by us I answer whereas you speake of silence upon all the forementioned grounds you have not been silent in the Pulpits and among the people but in many Sermons and in divers Congregations and at sundry times most of you have both plainly particularly and at large besides more darkly and generally preached your Church-way so that what you would inferre is denyed you for had you indeed been silent amongst the people and where you ought to have kept silence you could not have lost esteeme with good and wise men but it had beene your praise with God and Men but this is that I charge you with and for which you may well suffer in the thoughts of good and wise men that you have been very silent and reserved where you should have spoken and have been desired and where the free and plaine declaring your judgements would not have prejudiced the forementioned grounds but on the other hand where you should have been silent and your speaking could tend to no other ends but to diâ—…union in dividing the godly party and to the increasing of your owne party there you have been free to speake out but to your godly and learned brethren in the Ministery differing from you you never brought in a Narrative of your Tenets as was desired and you promised nor ever laid downe clearly your positions with the grounds of them as who but you would in three yeares time have done and have desired satisfaction but you still declined disputes and reasonings upon the points in difference as upon that about Formes of Prayer whereupon the meeting among Ministers was laid aside for a time You never answered any of the bookes written by men of much worth and learning and with much strength and moderation as your selves confesse but it was still given out by your followers upon the comming forth of the bookes they should be answered and that the Question was mistaken and you held not so with such like put off's You have declined giving in your positions and grounds to some Parliament men that desired them who promised to be ready to doe any thing for you provided they might know what your way was and see your grounds to consider of them whether they were according to Scriptures but now in Pulpits and in houses
of this Apologie But the Reader may aske what is the plaine English of the streame of publike interest according to which there was so great danger the Assembly would swimme I answer I conceive one of these two things or else it is probable both are meant by the Apologists 1. That the Ministers of the Assembly for themselves and their fellow Ministers would stand for such a government as wherein the power should be in their own hands and not in the peoples to doe with them for maintenance and standing at their pleasure and therefore they would establish Presbyteriall government rather then Independent 2. The Parliament of England upon great Armies raised against them needing help calls in for the Kingdome of Scotland to assist them now the Scots being for Presbyteriall government and against Independent and desirous of uniformity in government between the Kingdomes therefore for gratifying the Scots the Assembly is like to be swayed that way is this the streame of publike interest meant by you oh how unworthy an insinuation is this and how prejudicall this will be to the Reformation in after times I desire you to consider of in coole blood and what the enemies will say of it the government and Reformation of this Church was not free not according to the word of God but what Scotland would have Englands need of Scotland made them at least swayed much to take up their government but how ever this is insinuated for the holding up the credit of your cause against the time the Assembly shall come to reject it as Apocripha yet I must tell you you foresaw that which is no such streame of publike interest nor no cause of disadvantage to you For the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were not sent hither to put their government upon us but came as well to receive any light and help as to give and to come to us in what should be found upon debate more agreeable to the word as we to come to them and the Covenant of the Kingdomes doth not tye us to the Reformation of the Church of Scotland but binds us to Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches and then requires both of us and them an uniformity according to the word of God And indeed the Assembly consisting of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the wisdome piety and learning of two Kingdomes are met cannot well be thought to be carried away from the word by the streame of publike interest especially most of the Assembly being men not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the reformed Churches or by former declarations of their judgements nor appointed by the Parliament to Presbyteriall government but left freely to be guided by the light of the word in this way of God communicated to them besides that the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland however they be present in the Assembly to heare debates and to give their Reasons yet never gave their voices in any point that hath passed the Assembly As for the close of this Section trusting God both with your selves and his own truth as he shall be pleased to manage it by us Had you in adventuring your selves upon this Assembly and therein really beleeving all the sorts of disadvantages as you here speake trusted God both with your selvs and that you call his own truth some of you would never have brought such arguments for your way as you have done And certainely if some of you did trust God as you ought with your selves c. you would not trust so much to your wits and policie nor be so full of reservations fetches doubtfull expressions as you are And brethren let me deale with you plainely I hope it may doe you good many speake of your policie and subtiltie some who are strangers to you yet being members of the Assembly and beholding your managing of your opinions and way there wonder that good men should be so politick and subtill as you are especially if the cause were good Moreover if in all matters of Doctrine we were not as orthodox in our judgements as our bretheren themselves we would never have exposed our selves to this triall and hazard of discovery in this Assembly the mixture of whose spirits the quick-sightednesse of whose judgements intent enough upon us and variety of debates about all sorts of controversies afoot in these times of contradiction are such as would be sure soone to find us out if we nourished any monsters or serpents of opinions lurking in our bosomes And if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not afore-hand open to the view and judgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent which we have not been we could not long be hid But it is sufficiently known that in all points of doctrine which hitherto in the review and examination of the Articles of our Church or upon other occasions have been gone through our judgements have still concurred with the greatest part of our bretheren neither doe we know wherein we have dissented And in matters of discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld as all may see and cannot but testifie for us to the utmost latitude of our light and consciences professing it to be as high a point of Religion and conscience readily to own yea fall down before whatsoever is truth in the hands of those that differ yea though they should be enemies unto us as much as earnestly to contend for and hold fast those truths wherein we should be found dissenting from them and this is in relation to peace so also as a just due to truth and goodnesse even to approve it and acknowledge it to the uttermost graine of it though mingled with what is opposite unto us And further when matters by discussion are brought to the smallest dissent that may be we have hitherto been found to be no backward urgers unto a temper not only in things that have concerned our own consciences but when of others also such as may suite and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods and Assemblies as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determinations of truth one way Whether in all matters of Doctrine all of you be as Orthodox in your Judgements as your brethren themselves I question it though in the most Doctrines and in the maine I grant it I have been told of some odd things in matter of Doctrine preached by one of you five both in England and Holland and of some points preached in the Church of Arnheim never questioned there and since printed not very Orthodox as for instance amongst others that the soules of the Saints
doe not goe to heaven to be with Christ expresly contrary to the 2 Cor. 5. 6 8. and to Philip. 1. 23. now whether some of you may not hold those opinions seeing they were publiquely preached at Arnheim and never condemned as ever I heard I know not but have reason rather to suspect you doe how ever though you doe not nourish any Monsters or Serpents of opinions in your bosomes yet I feare you have running wormes in your heads and together with the gold silver and Ivory of Orthodox truths you have store of Apes and Peacocks conceits and toyes as strange coined distinctions new strained expositions of Scriptures odd opinions about the personall raigne of Christ on earth and I aske you what the annointing with oyle of sick persons as an Ordinance for Church-members and what the bringing in of Hymnes composed by the gift of a Church-member cum multis aliis are whether are not these strange conceits and how ever you may be free of Monsters and Serpents of opinions lurking in your bosomes yet there is much of a Monster and the Serpent lurking in this Apologie and to be sure one Monster of opinions you all hold generally and some of you have preacht for A Toleration of divers sects and opinions and let me tell you granting you five be so Orthodox and supposing your argument good to prove it exposing your selves to the hazard of discovery in this Assembly which is no concluding argument yet there are many members of those Churches to which you belong besides many other members of Churches of your way and communion whom I suppose must be tolerated as well as your selves that doe hold very odd and strange things Some of Arnheim hold strange conceits and some members of Mr Sympsons Church hold some of the points of the Anabaptists and daily the Independent Churches like Africa doe breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptisme Antinomianisme Familisme nay that huge Monster and old flying serpent of the Mortality of the soul of man and indeed there is no end of errours that the Independent principles and practises lead unto As for those words if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not aforehand open to the view and Iudgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent we could not be long hid c. I answer some one or two Heterodox opinions may be hid where men are Orthodox in the most especially if all points of doctrine have not been discussed nor reviewed as in the Assembly they have not many Articles of our Church not having yet been gone through so that your errours in doctrine may be behind and your triall of being Orthodox will be when the Assembly comes to these Articles Article 19 22 23. 26. and when that doctrine concerning the Lawfulness of a Toleration of divers sects and opinions shall come to be discussed But before I passe from this I desire the Apologists to remember and the Reader to observe they call the Church of England Our Church and so in the fift page of this Apologie Our own Congregations we meane of England So that if you meane as you here write then the Nationall Church of England is your Church and the Parochiall Congregations are yours and so you establish a Nationall visible Church under the new Testament and if so why doe you erect other Churches and withdraw from your own but if you doe not meane so nor beleeve there is a Nationall visible Church nor account your selves members of this Nationall Church why doe you speake so and call the Church of England your own Church and the Parochiall Churches your own Congregations As for that part of this Section which concernes your good carriage in the Assembly in matters of Discipline In matters of Discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld c. I not being present at the debates will say nothing against it but whether since the writing of your Apologie and the Assembly comming to the points of Discipline which are properly yours your free-hold you have been so faire and moderate endevouring upon all occasions to grant and yeeld to the utmost latitude of your light and Consciences that I doubt and your best friends are not satisfied in it but rather much offended and you have much lost your selves with them by your demeanour and way of managing matters of difference in the Assembly But supposing all you say of your selves in this Section were fully so both before and since your Apologie yet it were not much materiall nor much to be trusted to being upon the triall of your good behaviour for it is probable all that may be done out of policie in reference to the main designe of obtaining a Toleration which at first cannot be imagined to have any probabilitie of being gained without all seeming fairenesse and compliance and drawing neere to us and therefore this Apologie is so framed in the words phrases and composure of it that in it you have stretcht your selves to the utmost latitude and highest compliance with the Church of England and the Reformed Churches even beyond what is meant by you in our sence and in common acception and beyond what many of your followers will own As also you hide and reserve severall things you hold both in matter and manner that so by all this you might court the Parliament Assembly Reformed Churches to beare with such conscientious men who differ so little from them and are so moderate and temperate also in and about the debate of those differences but the Parliament and the Assembly are wise to see into and thorough these Artifices and to consider that if once a Toleration were granted there would quickly be discovered another face of things which hitherto stands behind the curtain As for this passage in the close of this Section your not being backward urgers unto a temper not only in things concerning your own consciences but others also such as may suit and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determintions of truth one way I judge then you had but a weake ground to urge you to temper in matter of difference and I question whether you were so forward to a temper in the things that might suit and tend to union for I suppose you are so farie from holding that a great and usefull end of Synods a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding Determinations of truth one way as that you deny it I have read a letter out of New-England from a Minister of note there speaking of that Synod which met upon occasion of the Antinomians and Familists formally denying this power of binding
your brethren being of two distinct Churches and communions you setting up new because you cannot continue in the old with them and certainely men of one and the same Church and communion differ lesse among themselves then persons of a Church and communion set up against that Church but least from this passage your followers should make use to tax the Ministers of our Church who have desired Reformation with inconstancie and going according to the times and your selves make use of it to defend your running so farre in your way the Ministers differing farre more from themselves within this three yeares past then you doe from them I must propound this to prevent those consequences namely that most of your brethren both of the Assembly and of other parts of the Kingdome differ little from themselves in judgement from what they held three yeares past or many yeares past namely might they have had their desire and could their votes have carried it they would have voted out Ceremonies government by Arch-bishops Bishops c. this Lyturgie and Service-book and though they now practise not many things they did before but forbare yet some things are forborne as being matter of offence among the people and other things as having been an occasion of much hurt in the Church and now there being so open a dore for a full Reformation they doe labour after the best and follow what they judge most for edification now not condemning all their former practises especially considering those times unlawfull and sinfull And withall to consider us as those who in these former times for many yeares suffered even to exile for what the Kingdome it selfe now suffers in the endeavour to cast out and who in these present times and since the change of them have endured that which to our spirits is no lesse grievous the opposition and reproach of good men even to the threatning of another banishment and have been through the grace of God upon us the same men in both in the midst of these varieties And finally as those that doe pursue no other interest or designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in our own Land where we have and may doe further service and which is our birth-right as we are men with the enjoyment of the ordinances of Christ which are our portion as we are Christians with the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse as not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth For my part I wonder with what face you can write this And withall to consider us as those who in these former times for many yeares suffered even to exile and bring it as an argument to the Parliament to consider you the more namely to grant you a toleration All the answer I shall returne is that the Parliament and Kingdome shall and may doe well to looke upon you and consider you instead of many yeares suffering even to exile as men who voluntarily went into another Countrey nigh at hand to live safely out of gun-shot and there lived richly plentifully and freely whilest other godly Ministers lived here in continuall feares dangers tossings suspensions attachments and consumptions of their estates It is strange that men should be so farre partiall as to frame an argument and make account the more to be considered and favoured for flying away and deserting the Cause in the open field Suppose some Captaines and Souldiers in the Parliaments service should put up a petition to the Houses forasmuch as they left the rest of the Army in distresse and withdrew in the day of battaile and never returned till the enemy was put to the worst and the battaile turned therefore they would be pleased to afford them an exemption from common taxes c. and vouchsafe them some speciall priviledge what would you think of such a motion the application is obvious you deserted the Cause and in as much as in you lay hazarded all and yet are not content with this to come in upon the victory and divide the spoiles with those who helped to winne the field to enjoy the prime Lectures and places in and neare the City both of note and profit with all respect and countenance from Parliament and City but you would have Peculiars and enjoy such a way as should shut out all in comparison an unreasonable request and a strange instance for all posterity if it should be granted For our parts many of us who bore the heate of the day stood to it and ventured breaking and undoing many times over request no such favour nor exemption but to take our lot in common with the Kingdome and Ministers in things established and I know no reason that upon any considerations either extrinsicall or intrinsicall you should be considered above the godly Ministers of the Church of England I know and could give many to the contrary but besides that I have before fully spoken more then once how little there is in this argument of yours so often inculcated of exile and suffering to exile the cause here rendred by you of your suffering even to exile namely for what the Kingdome it selfe now suffers in the endeavour to cast out is not true nor proper For however the Kingdome now suffers for casting out the Hierarchie and some corruptions in worship and for a Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches yet your suffering unto exile was not for that for which the non-conformists more forward then you suffered but your leaving the Kingdome was to enjoy the Church way without which we suppose you will not be contented though Ceremonies Episcopacie and Lyturgie be now cast out by the Kingdome as the fruit of all their sufferings but if Presbyterie be setled and Independencie may not be tolerated you will goe away the second time and may be call that exile and banishment too As for your enduring in these present times and since the change of them that which to your spirits is no lesse grievous the opposition and reproach of good men by which you would further perswade and move the Parliament to allow you a Toleration let me minde you that I beleeve in no age five men practising and acting as you have done contrary to the Judgement of all the Churches and of the Ministers your brethren and that to the sensible disadvantage of the publique Reformation ever met with lesse opposition and contradiction of good men and as for reproach none at all I will not reiterate what I have formerly expressed in pag. 226 227. but it is beyond all president the silence compliance respects faire carriage you have been entertained with from the Ministers and good men neither Luther that eminent servant of God and excellent Instrument nor others could finde the like in their time from the Ministers differing from them and therefore the complaint is very groundlesse and to
all under his power and charge to worship God upon which learned Divines as Zanchius excellently show the dutie of Magistrates in reference to commanding and providing that their people shall worship God according to his will Rom. 13. 4. Ephes. 5. 11. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Iohn 11. v. Revel 〈◊〉 20. with many other places in Scripture of removing away of evill and of not consenting to evill c the Parliament is bound to establish and to command obedience to that Reformation which is judged most agreeable to the Word and to suppresse and hinder all other It was excellently done by the Parliament to call together so many able godly and Orthodox Divines to debate and find out the mind and will of God for Doctrine Worship and Discipline and to give libertie to men of different judgements to bring in their grounds and after all wayes of enquiry and searching into truth and a Modell drawn up for them upon good grounds being satisfied 't is their dutie by their power and authoritie to bind men to the decrees of the Assembly and not to tolerate any other Doctrines Churches Worship or Government to be set up and exercised you ought not to suffer the weake to be destroyed nor the people to be drawn away by every wind of doctrine but when once upon good grounds the Reformation is concluded you must defend it against troublesome and turbulent spirits and in so doing God will be with you and subdue the people under you whereas if to please some people you suffer them to enjoy their own way God will not be well pleased with it neither can you answer it unto God You may lawfully nay ye ought in that which is good to compell men though they pretend conscience shall the errours of other mens consciences hindr you from yeelding that service which God requiteth of you may a Parliament displease God to please men or may they be pleaseâ—…s of other mens sins and wink at evill to content some persons No Parliaments in making lawes for Religion must depend on the will of God â—…led in his Word in the best and 〈◊〉 wayes communicated to them and not upon the consciences of some people 〈◊〉 The Toleration desired is against the solemne League and Covenant for Reformation taken by the Parliament and the Kingdome of England and Scotland and 〈◊〉 be coâ—…ed to without 〈◊〉 of that Oath and Covenant so that the Apologie and motion for a Toleration comes â—…o late the doore is shut against it the Kingdomes hands are bound so that if such a Toleration were not in itâ—… selfe unlawfull and against the dutie of the Magistrate yet now because of the Oath and Covenant 't is unlawfull so that whatever might have been granted before cannot now lest the Kingdome should be guilty before God of Covenant-breaking Now aâ—… Toleration and this moving for a Toleration by the Apologists is expresly against these branches of the Covenant 1. Against that clause in the first branch of endeavouring the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ixeland in Doctrine Worship Government and Discipline according to the Example of the best Reformed Churches now in this Petition to both Houses you would be exempted from the Reformation of the best Reformed Churches so that unlesse you understand the Brownists new-New-England or your own Churches to be the best Reformed you have broken your Covenant but though you may understand it so and may be tooke the Covenant in that sense yet I suppose you cannot think the Paâ—…liament whom you sâ—… to for a Toleration took the best Reformed Churches in that acception but for the Reformed Churches so called and commonly knowne as of France c. so that their granting a Toleration would be against this clause of the best Reformed Churches 〈◊〉 't is expresly against another clause in the firsâ—… branch And shâ—…ll endeavouâ—… to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformity in Religion Confession of Faith Forme of Church Government Directory soâ—… Worship and Catechiâ—…ing Now if the Parliament hath covenanted so how can it grant a Toleration of so different a Forme of Church Government and Worship as the Independent way is from the Presbyteriall and how can you be excused from explicite formall breach of Covenant in this part of your Apologie having sworne and subâ—…bed to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in these three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion who in stead of so labouring and endeavouring or ever so much as trying whether you with the rest of the Churches may not be brought into a neere Conjunction and Uniformitie just before the time the Assembly was comming to fall upon these points in difference to put out this Apologie and to move for a Toleration before hearing what could be said to you for satisfaction or ever debating the points in the Assembly Is this to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion c. before so much as ever debating points to conclude magisterially as you doe in pages 22. and 24. against the Reformed Churches and to desire an exemption from Conjunction and Uniformitie with the rest of the Churches in this Kingdome 3. 'T is against that clause in the second branch that we shall in like manner without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatever shall be found contrary to found doctrine and the power of Godlinesse lest we partake in other mens sins Now that which you move for is schisme and contrary to sound Doctrine the Church-way being a schisme besides many of your Church Principles are against sound Doctrine and the power of Godlinesse as that in your Apologie about the subject of Excommunication as that of a few people having power to joyne together and set up a Church and chuse what Ministers they will as that of the Independencie of particular Congregations from any Authenitative power c. so that the Parliament in the midst of their Reformation and blessed Conjunction according to the Word of God with the Reformed Churches should in allowing you a Toleration suffer a formall schisme both in Worship and Government in the midst of these Kingdomes 4ly This Toleration sued for is against a part of the fourth branch endeavouring the discovery of such as have been evill Instruments by hindring Reformation of Religion or making any faction or parties amongst the people contrary to this League and Covenant Now the Parliament is bound by this against all persons and things which hinder the Reformation and makes any faction or parties amongst the people now whether a Toleration granted yea but moved for would not hinder the Reformation of Religion and make Faction and parties amongst the people let it be considered I confesse I wonder how the Apologists ever took this Covenant or having taken
spread and they gained so many of the Magistrates on their side we should have found there would have been no ground for Mr Simpson to write thus As is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists and Socinians In a word till the calling of Synods and the power of Presbyteriall government was shaken and some Arminians by flattery and policie wrought to put by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies and appealed to the Magistrates as Mr Simpson does in this Apologie from the Assembly there was not so great a defection both of Ministers and people unto errors in turning Papists Socinians c. 3. Though Presbyteriall government hath not its free course in the Low-Countries as in France Geneva Scotland besides the Toleration there yet there are infinitely fewer miscarriages in censures divisions errors in the Presbyteriall Churches then in the Independents there having been more contentions miscarriagâ—…s falling into errors in one small Church of the Independent way at Amsterdam and that within lesse then one yeere then in all the Churches in some Provinces I remember perfectly I have read in Mr Pagetts Arrow against Separation a man who lived long in Holland and much versed in the Controversie how he showes that out of a few members in the Brownists Churches more fall to Anabaptisme c. then out of many thousand members of the Presbyteriall Churches amongst the Dutch or out of all the English Reformed Churches there So that notwithstanding this new objection brought against Presbyteriall government if the Parliament should please to settle it and that in the full power and free use of Classes and Synods denying also a Toleration for Independencie unto which all erroneous and discontented spirits upon all occasions would flow and gather instead of opening a wide gate for errors divisions and many other mischiefes they shall lay a sure foundation for truth and peace in these Churches And in the last words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland I conclude this last Reason against a Toleration The Church of England which God hath blessed with so much learning and piety by this Reformation and uniformity with other reformed Churches which all of us have solmnely sworne and subscribed to endeavour in our severall places and callings should be a praise in the earth Now did not other occasions call me to take off my hand besides the booke it selfe swelled already to such a number of sheets I would have answered all the reasons brought both for Tolerations in generall and particularly for the Congregationall way as that men are to be perswaded in matters of Religion and not compelled as that the Conscience is to be left free as that the deniall of a Toleration will be a great persecution as that this is the way to make men hypocrites as that Gods people are a willing people c. but reserving this to another season in the close of this Discourse I will propound these following questions to the Apologists 1. Whether the commanding of men by the power of Lawes to doe their duties to doe the things which God requires of them with the using of outward meanes to worke them to it when unwilling be unlawfull for the Magistrate and against Christian libertie yea or no 2. In your moving for a Toleration doe you desire it for you five only with those who are actually and will come in to be members of your Churches or for all the Churches who are of the same way and Communion if for your selves and Churches onely which would be more tolerable a few then a great number and you being persons of more worth then most of the others consider the solemne League and Covenant is against it That we shall without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine so that you cannot be tolerated more then others besides if that were granted you being but five Ministers and making up but three or foure Churches the Parliament would be never the neerer in giving satisfaction for what should become of all the rest of the Ministers and Churches in City and Countrey of Mr C. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr W. c. the Parliament would be accounted partiall and further off from giving content then if they granted none at all But if it be said you desire it for all Churches of your constitution I answer expresse so much under your hands and I will then give you an answer 3. Whether would you have a Toleration granted in the generall and indifferently for all consciences sects and opinions or only for some sort of opinions I suppose being wise men you will not expresse your selves for a Toleration in the first sense but in the latter I desire to know of you then what limits and bounds you will set and where the Parliament shall stop and what rules you will give for this as first whether the limitation shall be a Toleration only for all different formes of Church-Government and order so long as they agree in Doctrine with the Church established and are Orthodox but not of doctrine Now if you hold so then the Brownists and the Bishops with those who are for the Hierarchie must be tolerated as well as you many Episcopall men being sounder in doctrine then some of your way and if so then the simple Anabaptists and that sort of simple Anabaptists called Dippers will come in too saying that Baptisme at such an age and baptizing in rivers by dipping are but matters of order and time and what if yet a new forme of Church Government and way of externall order in the Administration of Gods Ordinances be set up by some a way which hath never yet beene practised by any must that be tolerated also consider with your selves whether there may not be a safer allowance of difference in some doctrines and opinions then of different governments as also what you have expressed of the consequence of Church Government and order and then resolve me whether you will have all formes of Church-Government allowed and in my Rejoynder I will apply my selfe particularly to show you the danger of that and how much hazard there is even of the Doctrine from the Discipline and Order if that be not right Or secondly would you have a Toleration in points of Doctrine too namely in lesser differences I desire to know what you will make the rule and measure of those lesser differences whether whatever may stand with saving grace and is not against the fundamentals of Doctrine and civill Government or what else Now if you meane so who shall determine and judge what may stand with saving grace c. every Heretick Socinian c. will plead his opinion may and I aske of you whether many points and practises very bad and pernitious may not stand with saving grace in some men at least for a time what say you to Polygamie that hath stood with saving
Contendebant etiamad solum magistratum immediatè sub Christo pertineâ—… judicium quando controversiae sidei â—…rtae sunt in Ecclesia Post Synodum in Confess Apol. cap. 25. negant ejuâ—… jus aut officium esse ad decreta Synodica ut ut verbo Dei conformia sint observanda obligare â—…omines sua auctoritate potestate ulla coactiva uti in ea parte negant etiam magistratum juâ—… habere in privatos conventus sed tantum in exercitia quae in templis seu locis publicis ad magistratum pertinentibuâ—… instituuntur Nam cum rebus sua ita consultum putarent aliter statuebaâ—…t contrarium quam admodum alibi a nobis est ostensum Robinson Apolog. cap. 11. de magistratu polit Idem prorsus sentimus de magistratu et illius munere quod ecclesiae Belgicae earum consessionâ—… hac in re ex animo suffragamur Burroughs oâ—… Hosea sixt Lect. pag. 164 165 166. â— Juâ—…us lib. 1. de Pontif. cap. 7 not 2. Nos ita distinguamus mâ—…gistratus qua magistratuâ—… est humanae societatis caput humana ordinatione qua Christianus vero est divinae societatis in Ecclesia membrum divina ordinatione in eadem custos vindex ordinis ut membrum electum ipsius not 4. se Christiani sâ—…t praestantia Ecclesiae membra b Voetius Disp. de quaest penes quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica part prim Thes. 4. Thes. 5. Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiâ—… cap. 25. Apolog quorum prius non posse magistraâ—…ii aâ—… decreta Synodica veâ—… Dei consorâ—…ia observandum sua authoritate obligare con stringere c Apolloâ—… juâ—… majest circa sacra par post cap 3 exam qu. 12. statuimus quoâ—… magistratus potestatem habeat coactivam qua res Ecclesiasticas ex praescripto verbi Dei constitut as legitima via urget subdit is imponit ad disciplinam Ecclesiae stabiliendaÌ„ Ecclesiasticum tuendum ordinem d M. S to A. S. p. 55 5â—… 57 58 59 â—…0 * Concedendum publicum ministerij 〈◊〉 â—…um omnibus suiâ—… circâ—…mstantijs politicis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consideratum eate nus magistratus directioni subjectum esse quod absque authoritate ejus approbativa seu confirmativa seu toâ—…erantiae jurisdictione ab Ecclesia publicè in ejus ditioneinstitui cum aâ—…paratu politico executioni maÌ„dari non possit nisi leges Reipublicâ—… junda mentales subditis id concedant tribuant Apollon jus majestatis circa sacra par post cap. 3. Exam quaest dâ—…decimae a Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiam Magistratus nullam esse potestateâ—… in privaâ—…s convenâ—…us sed â—…tum in publica tempta Voet. disput penes quos sit potest as Eccl. Thes. 4. a De quest Penes quos sit potest as Ecclesiastica b Wale Tractde officio ministrorum authoritate atque inspectione qua magistratus super ministros haberâ—… debet c Apollon sus majestatâ—… circasacra d Altera differentia d wateria sumitur subjectoque administrationum Politicae administrationis sub jectum esse res humanas in desâ—…tione nostra posuimus ecclesiasticae divinâ—… esse sacras docuimus Iunius Eccles. l. 3. c. 4. Habere magistratum qua talem publicam potestatem judicialem seu judicandi judicio cognitionis non tantum sed decinitivo de negot ijs caufis Ecclesiasticis Quod judiciâ—… consequens â—…st non antecedens neque enim sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia adhaec praesuppositive est Theologicum sed formaliter politicum quia disquisitio ultimata in eo non est an hoc sit verum sed an velint illud publica authoritate tueri exequi Voet de quaest penes quos sit potest as Eccl. par 1. Thes 4. Apoll â—…us majest circa sacra cap. a par post pag. 63 64 65 6â—… 67 68. Apollon â—…s majest circa sacra cap. 2. examen quaestionis septimae * Nam remedium extreâ—…um atque acerâ—…mum est ad carnem in homine domandaÌ„ ac spiritum vivisicandum exemplum efficacissimum ne pars sincera â—…rabatur adversus verâ—… eas qui in contunacia impâ—…itentia perseverant medium unicum ad Dei domum fermento Ecclesia Christi scandalia liberandam atque adeo verbum sacramenta a pro pbanatione nomen Dei ab externorum blasphematione vindicandum Synops Punor Theol. Disput. 48. de Eccl. discipl thes 59. * Illa vero quae a spirituall Christi regno aliena sunt effectus qui ad hoc coeleste Christi regnil pertinent producere nequeunt proinde quod institutione divina ad eos producendos non sunt sanctificata Disciplina 〈◊〉 c. clesiastica nihil statuit in hominum bona jura dignitates fortunas c. Sed paena quae clavium potestate inâ—…gitur spiritualis quâ—… hominem internum est spiritualem ejus slatum concernit At veroextra speram activitatis politici Magistratus est internum hominem subigers spiritutiem poenam conscient ijs inferre vel hominii animas ab ijs liberare Apoll. â—…us Majesâ—… circa sacra cap. a. exam quest 7. pag. 10â—… * Zanch. de Discipl Eccl. Ad bâ—…c multa etiam sunt scelera in quae ne Magistratus quidem Christianus animadvertere so let aut tenetur ex legibus suis vâ—…uti sunt privatae in â—…tiae simultaies participatio â—…um idalolatris in aliquo impio cultu dissimulatio verae religionis deniâ—… multi maâ—… mores tum domestick tum publick qui non turbant aut pacâ—…m publicam aut honestateÌ„ commodum publicumâ—… Ecâ—…lesia vero ne â—…sta quidem ferre debet sed corrigere juxta Christi iustiâ—…tum Zanch. de Discip Ecclesiast * Illi certè nullo modosinendi sunt vivere cii illorum temporaliâ—… vita alijs 〈◊〉 aeterna mors Zaâ—…ch de magistr 168. Beza Epist. 83. Zanch de Eccl. 〈◊〉 gubern p 552. 〈◊〉 quar praecept 713. Rotterdam Septemb. 4 tâ— 1641. New stile Apolog. Apolog * Peter Martyr loc commun Class 4 cap. 14. de exilio Groeâ—… etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a fugiendo exilium vocarent Reformat of Church-government Reformat of Church gover pag. 14. * Bez. Epist. â—…8 * Bez. Epist. 83 Apolog. Catal Haeretic Schlusselb lib. decimus de Sect a Stenck â—…elp * IndependeÌ„ce of particular Congregations pleaded for pag. 100 101 102 103 a Every particular Congregation is an absolute Church having no jurisdiction over it but Christs alone and that immediately page 52 59. a Mr. Herle The Independency on Scriptures of the Independencie of Churches h Rise growth and danger of Socinianisme page 65 66. Reasons against Independent government pag. 19. * A briefe Narration of some Church courses held in opinion and practise in new-New-England by W. R. M. Cottons letter from out of England to M. Skelton in New-England Ans. to 32 questions p. 82. Keyes of the kingdome of Heaven Epist. to the Reader * Schlusselb de
which is imply'd by you in the close of this Section as also that you might have some maintenance by the people that went over with you and still hoped upon the bad times in England to draw over more which according to the good old non-conformists principles you could not doe As also that you might secure your selves from all possibility and feare of persecutions be certainely safe upon the shore whilst your brethren were at sea sea in the storme This being our condition we were cast upon a farther necessity of enquiring into and viewing the light part the positive partof Church-worship and government And to that end to search out what were the first Apostolique directions patterne and examples of those Primitive Churches recorded in the New Testament as that sacred pillar of fire to guide us And in this enquire we lookt upon the word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly as men made of flesh and blood are like to doe in any juncture of time that may fall out the places we went to the condition we were in the company we went forth with affording no temptations to byas us any way but leaving us as freely to be guided by that light and touch Gods Spirit should by the word vouchsafe our consciences as the Needle toucht with the Load-stone is in the Compasse And we had of all men the greatest reason to be true to our own consciences in what we should embrace seeing it was for our consciences that we were deprived at once of what ever was deare to us We had no new Common-wealths to reare to frame Church-government unto whereof any one piece might stand in the others light to cause the least variation by us from the Primitive pattern we had no State-ends or Politicall interests to comply with No Kingdoms in our â—…ye to subdue unto our mould which yet will be coexsistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Government on earth No prefenment or worldly respects to shape our opinions for we had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to worship God acceptably and so most according to his word This being our condition must relate to what goes before which I judge from the literall and gramaticall sense can be no other but this That falling from the Ceremonies which was enough to deprive you of your Ministeries and the participation of some Ordinances and further exposed you to violence or exile to avoide it which latter of exile you chusing rather for the ends specified that put you upon a necessity of enquiring into and viewing the light part the positive part of Church-worship and Government Which words seeme to carry this sense that upon your chusing exile you fell upon enquiring into the light part and not before and all the understanding Readers whom I have spoken with about this passage take them so But because you doe not positively say so and your words may have some evasion and I would not fasten any thing on you as said by you in this book that you affirme not Let me put to you for the understanding your minds this question Whether you take chusing an Exile for your resolution and purpose when you should see convenient time to leave the Land and not for your actuall leaving the Kingdome and so fell upon enquiring and viewing the positive part of Church-worship and Government and to that end to search out what were the first Apostolique directions recorded in the New Testament whilst you were in the Kingdome Or else Whether after you were come into Holland and so actually were Exiles then you were cast upon the enquiring into the light part Now if you meane these words in the first sense and that the Reader must understand them so which I must tell you as it is a very harsh sense and for a Narration to speake so doubtfully is not faire so all your discourse following upon it in the 3 4 5 6 7 page is vaine and to no purpose to work that in the minds of the Reader which you drive at Besides there are many passages in those pages cannot admit of such a sense but plainely referre to your being in Holland as those words The places we went to the condition we were in the company we went forth with and we had of all men the greatest reason to be true to our own consciences in what we should embrace seeing it was for our consciences that we were deprived at once of what ever was deare to us with many other like passages But if you meane the words in the second sense as the coherence and scope of the discourse going before and following carry it namely that when you were in Exile then you began to search out the positive part of Church-worship and Government let me propound my reasons why I doe not beleeve it but doe judge that most of you if not all were upon the light part and in the Church-way in your judgements before your leaving England and so when you came over needed no great search into it In the sixt page you speake expressely that some of you were actually in this way of communion and after that baptized your children in Parishonall Congregations which words there exprest must of necessity referre to England before your going over and cannot be understood whilst you were in Holland or since your returne into England unlesse you meane things quite otherwise then you speake And that you were beyond the darke part the evill of those superstitions adjoyned to the worship of God which have been the common stumbling-block of many thousand tender consciences which cannot be understood but of the Ceremonies and some corruptions in the Lyturgy let me besides your own confession in the sixt page put these questions to your consciences and in your answer deny them if you can 1. Whether some of you whilst you were in England did not for a long time wholly forbeare comming to the Lyturgy and comming to the Lords Supper at all in our Congregations because of the prescribed forme of Prayer and mixt Communion 2. Whether one of you five told not some friends that he had found out a forme of Church-government as farre beyond M Cartwrights as his was beyond that of Bishops 3. Whether another of you had not so much declared his judgement against the lawfulnesse of set formes of prayer prescribed as thereupon at the request of some great persons of worth Mr Ball now with God had not a conference and dispute with him at Mr Knightlyes upon it And whether the same person residing near Banbury did not both by preaching and otherways vent many things against prescribed formes of prayer and Communicating in our assemblies so that the Countrey thereabouts was much disturbed and that painfull preacher Mr Wheateley now with God much grieved by the falling off and withdrawing of some 4. Whether also one of these Apologists was not so farre gone in the principles of the