Come come Jack leave off thy fooling and talk more honourably of thy Brethren J. Yes yes Friend when they deserve it But have a little patience and I 'll make it out W. You never can J. I 'll try that and then we 'll talk to the Wooden-Sword Thou knowest Will the first have added many Inventions to the pure Doctrines of the Christian Faith and therefore all those who protest against Her have Reform'd upon that account W. Very good J. Thou knowest likewise there are Doctrines of Worship and Doctrines of Discipline in that Holy Religion W. Well! J. Now if our Dissenters at home to speak the naked truth and some of the Reform'd abroad substract these Doctrines from the total account or at best are corrupt and deficient in what will you say then W. These are * P. 8. only Circumstantials Jack J. Thou' rt in a grand mistake Will. They are Essentials and an Article of my Creed bearing a principal Relation to the Communion of Saints And you may have heard Will that the Hugonots of France finding the absolute Necessity of Episcopacy to the Constituting a true Church su'd to their Parliament for establish'd Bishops and what Answer was given to it why a great Man told this King then they 'll have the Face of a Church And if Episcopacy be so necessary to the true and complete Communion of Saints then the Doctrines of Worship and Discipline drawn out by that high Order of the Holy Scripture cannot but be necessary too But if you 'd contend about this Matter you 'd best set about the Confutation of those Ancient and †Among which are Dr. Scot. Modern Writers who have sufficiently clear'd that Point already Will. P. 5.8.11 c. Well Jack I ever said thou' rt hot headed Thus wou'd you at one blow cut off all our Dissenting Brethren from the Communion and from the Privileges of the Church of England J. Thou' rt in a grand mistake again Will. It is not I or the Church cut off any from her Communion or Privileges but Obstinacy and Self-conceit Thou knowest Friend the Protestant Name of this Kingdom was first founded in the Church of England as by Law established And that our Martyr'd Reformers first settled it among us according to the present Constitution of that Church or with very little difference And tho' our Brethren pretend to be wiser than those Reformers and make a second Reformation yet I cannot but think it hath authority sufficient to recommend it to all honest Englishmen who delight not in Kickshaws and Novelties Nor can there be any solid grounds of Dispute about those things that you and I and all honest Men cannot but * P. ult 8. acknowledge indifferent And therefore if Men will not be of the Church you cannot make 'em of the Church They cannot be †P. 12. Members of that Body of Protestants who are known by the Name of the Church of England that hate her Episcopacy her Liturgy and her Discipline since these are the things that distinguish Her from all other Churches Will. Well Friend Jack now you talk too severe J. It 's no severity but plain honest sense for if Men will not be of the true Church they are not of the true Church But those who reject the necessary Terms of Communion with the Catholick Church can never be sound Members of ours as far as they corrupt or make void the Essentials of the true Communion of Saints This I shou'd think a plain case And tho' it be confess'd indeed something may be given to mistaken Minds whose strength of understanding cannot reach the strength of those Arguments on which these Substantial Matters do depend and therefore our wise Law-givers have granted them Liberty without any diminution to their Honour or Prudence Yet from the Original of the Reformation it was not so Men were oblig'd to be instructed by their own proper Guides and not by ev'ry Corner-creeper who neither can justifie his Ministry or his Doctrine who may talk Blasphemy at his pleasure and no Man in the Meeting capable to contradict him who may trump up sedition boldly and have enough to side with him who with a whining Cant may pretend to Inspiration whenas his Discourse is so far from that as to be no better than plain down-right Non-sense And as I doubt not but that these are the Circumstances of many thousands of our deluded Brethren thus carry'd away by the slight of Men so I cou'd heartily wish some means might be found out to reconcile our Differences and create * P. 14. an hearty Union among Protestants That so such Persons might be throughly convinc'd of the Excellency of that Reformation so solemnly attested by no less than the Blood of our Martyrs as also first planted by them in the name of the Establish'd Church And you may observe withal that our Episcopacy our Liturgy our Ceremonies and our Discipline were left by them in very near the same form they now are And you know Will that some of them were Bishops themselves W. Well Jack upon granting you all this you still see the Dissenters * P. 6. on condition they subscribe to the Doctrine of the Church are qualify'd for Offices of Power and Trust J. True Will. But I have prov'd already how far they own the Doctrine of our Reformation and I observe farther that they are not qualify'd as Church of England Men but as they are English-men by subscribing to her Articles except three only they 're by vertue thereof admitted to Offices This is the full Sum of that Matter But you err Friend if you reckon them of * P. 12. that Body of Protestants who are known by the Name of the Church of England since you see they will not be so but obstinately refuse Communion with Her And you know very well the three Articles exempt such from acknowledging her Liturgy her Homilies and the Forms of Consecration of her Ministry which are the Principal things we differ about and the cause of their Schism from our Primitive Reformation So that such Persons as reject these are not by vertue of such subscribing rend'red thereby Members of her Religious Body since they will not be so but declare against her Original Reformation What can you make more of it And therefore no Dissenters however qualify'd can be incorporate into our Religious Body either as English-men or Protestants They are only left as they are Dissenters and call'd so all along in the Act. For I suppose the Parliament never design'd to create Impossibilities or create Contradictions at any time And therefore Friend you 'd do well to be more cautious how you rashly comprchend such Men within the Pale of the Church who will not be of the Church and who were never design'd by that August Assembly the Benefits of such a Comprehension Will. Pish Man Why so long a talk about the Church and that Reformation that came
An Answer To the CHAMPION of the Wooden-Sword OR A DIALOGUE BETWIXT Jack and Will Containing That Part of his Argument wherein he asserts viz. That the Dissenters are Members of the Church of England With some Occasional Remarks on Head-Corporation-Magistrates as Dissenters By a Member of the Church of England Pudet haec Opprobria nobis Et dici potuisse non aliquando refelli London Printed for the Author 1698. That the Dissenters are not Members of the Church of England JAck Well met Will I 'm glad to see you again Pray how does the Knight of the Wooden Sword do Will. Well Jack just after the old rate still goes to Meetings J. How Will and to Church too Why then he looks like Janus with a double Face W. What because both sorts of Religious Doors are set open Therefore he appears like the Goddess Concordia among the Old Romans which you know was one of K. William's Emblems at the Fire-works J. That 's well indeed He endeavours then to make all English-men of one mind I like his Project well But prethee how does he design to bring it about He must needs be more than Caesar or Hercules W. Well Jack for all your banter I know what I say He designs to do 't by Example by this means declaring to the World that the Church and Dissenters are all one except in a few indifferent things in some Ceremonies and Circumstantials J. Well said Friend Will Then I see the World is censorious as hitherto not taking him for the Man he is I confess it 's a lewd and wicked Age But Will let me ask you one civil Question Will. What 's that Friend J. Why prethee Will What Religion 's this Great and Charitable Man of W. There 's a Question Jack don 't you know that J. Prethee Friend Will How shou'd I D' ye think I 'm a Conjurer I can't tell what to make of ' m. W. That 's strange indeed Jack you see he professes himself a Christian Is not that enough J. Ay ay Will But then you know Cuckolds are Christians too This don't answer my Question W. What a Blockhead thou art Jack I wish all the World no worse Christians than he 's J. Well! that they may soon be I suppose But what an answer is this I remember Sir the Italians are wont to call all Naturals Christians I suppose you don't mean thus of the Gentleman whom the Wisemen of a Corporation were pleas'd to elect to an Office Tell me plainly what Religion this mighty Man 's of W. Well Jack I ever said thou' rt soft-headed Don't you know all Men count him an Independent J. Oh Lord What 's that Will D' ye make so great a Man depend on no Principles of Religion at all Or is he some Independent Officer What d' ye mean Man W. Well well Jack I see you love to play the Rogue you know what Persuasion he 's of J. Not I upon my word neither do I believe he knows himself W. Well Jack I see you 're for banter you reckon then such Men have their Religion to chuse What d' ye make a Weather-cock of ' m J. Why all this fury Will I 've reason for what I say For if his Religion depends on no fix'd and solid Principle I can't tell what to make of 't And whereas mine is certain contain'd in divers Canons and Articles of the Church the Independent's is another thing or to use your own words Will may for ought I know †Pag. 9. depend on the Moon and be as changeable as she W. Hey Jack what 's all this J. Why Friend Will I can't but think they pin their Faith upon another Man's sleeve They make more than a Lord Bishop of their private Teacher and sometimes richer too For whereas Will our Bishops have Rules prescrib'd them of Government and Discipline of Faith and Worship which they cannot transgress without incurring the danger of a suspension your single Presbyter if such has no Limits he may lead his Flock as he pleases all depends on the breath of one mouth W. There you 're out Jack Their Rule is the H. Scripture whereby they profess to Teach and Govern their Flock whereas yours * Ibid. is Humanity with which we have been too long clog'd J. That 's fine Will Do the Dissenters indeed then Preach and Rule by Inspir'd Methods You know †Ibid. Protestants hold no Church or Council Infallible But if these be guided by immediate Inspiration it can be nothing less which the Church of England never pretended to All that she aims at amounts to no more than to hold the same Scripture with all sound Christians for her Rule out of which she has drawn her Doctrins not only of Faith but also of Worship and of Discipline contain'd in her 39 Articles W. Well but they hold no other Rule but the Scripture J. There you are in a grand mistake Will. They 've likewise their Directory together with their Forms of Church Government and Discipline which are all the Deductions of Men as well as ours How then can they have higher Pretensions than the Church of England And since their Prayings and Preachings are as much the Inventions of Men as those of the Church why shall not theirs be accounted Humane as well as hers And I 'm afraid they generally discover more of Humane Imperfection in them for want of Learning and good Sense And I can't tell how these Men shou'd be wiser than our Reformers and the whole Church since but as for their honesty and sincerity I doubt not but it may well be call'd into question W. Now you say something to the purpose Jack J. Well Will I make bold to add more viz. That the Doctrines and Practice of the Church are of very ancient Use and Authority upon which account they cannot but be accounted far safer and better grounded And as I doubt not but that Episcopacy may evidently be prov'd to have a Divine and Apostolick stamp upon it so all our Controversies will soon end by an universal consent to that Doctrine Beside Will it 's certain our Church was never asham'd of her Principles having fix'd them in Print and you know Friend Litera Scripta manet as a sure and lasting Record W. Well Jack you know the Objection They tell ye yours came from Italy J. How and theirs from Geneva which borders upon Italy W. Thou talk'st like a Madman Jack are Rome and Geneva so near I ever count 'em at the greatest distance imaginable J. And then you 're out in your account Will. I tell thee Man if we take Jerusalem for a fix'd Meridian you 'll find 'em both far remov'd from that Holy City W. What d' ye reckon then both equally distant from the Holy Land What d' ye mean Man J. Well! I tell thee Friend the variation of both those Places is far wide of the Holy City and they 're equal Enemies to Her Will.
from Rome you know very well ‖ P. 13. it 's the Parliament hath settled the Limits of the Church and given her all the Authority she has and †Ibid. the same Authority may enlarge her Bounds and Pale when they please And can you deny but they have done the same thing for the Dissenters now that formerly they did for you J. Come come Will this will never hold Water The Parliament have only given 'em Liberty to Worship God as they please but never yet made 'em Members of the Establish'd Church who never wou'd be of the Establish'd Church And if you look into their Act it 's the 1st of William and Mary as I take it they give there no more than an ease and relief to tender Consciences that I cou'd ever yet discern And in earnest how can they be genuine Sons of her who out of stubborness disown so good a Mother whole Laws and Government have all along preserv'd all the Protestancy of this Kingdom W. How d' ye mean Friend Jack Have her Laws preserv'd all the Protestants of England when I cannot but think they tend directly to the Destruction of all those who ‖ P. 8. differ from them only in Circumstantials J. Well Will I find thou wilt never learn wit Shall I give you a numerous Catalogue thereof beginning from the very Infancy of our Reformation But since that wou'd be too large a field of Discourse you may take one single instance alone perform'd within our own Memory and 't was in the late Reign when those very Dissenters joyn'd with Popery against the Church and held it out so long too till at last seeing all a-going they began to repent almost too late But this is so far out of the road of my present Argument that I 'd rather reserve it for another opportunity W. Well Jack tho' I long to hear your sense on that point yet you may go on in your Argument J. Well then let me tell you Will the Parliament of England was never so o'reseen as to stamp the honourable Name of the Church of England upon Confusion and Disorder on all sorts and sizes of Sects and Enthusiasms They thought it enough to grant them Toleration And that they might keep them in as much order as possible They gave this Liberty to such only as acknowledge her other 36 Articles and strictly the Doctrine of the Blessed Trinity What can you make more of it Will. Yet still the Dissenters are enjoyn'd the highest Office of the Church the Sacrament will not that entitle 'em to be of her Body J. Not in the least Will that I know of Their receiving her Sacrament means no more than that the Parliament intended to take sufficient security of by laying this Restraint on those Men who know not what Decency and Order mean thereby obliging 'em to pay such acknowledgments to Her as the true Mother and the prime Reformation of England merits But you may be confident never calls 'em her Sons in any sense whatsoever in that they cannot be so as long as they oppose the true Reformation of England What can you make more of it Indeed if you 'd call 'em Sons because they have all along been preserv'd under the Covert and Protection of her Laws it must be true in no other sense than as a stubborn Child having forfeited his Hereditary Right may be so far receiv'd by a wise Parent as to ask a Blessing of her And thus much in their present Circumstances she allows them but much more whenever they grow wiser But so long as they refuse the other Parts of their Duty it 's impossible to count 'em her Members for the performance of one single act alone Will. Well Friend but for all this what if these qualify'd Persons will still call themselves by her Name J. Why Will they may call themselves by what name they please but that will never serve their turn The true Requisites she expects are the Duties of her Reformation and these are Obedience to her Church-Governors and their Discipline with an hearty joyning in her Offices and Devotions These her Canons these her Articles these her Homilies strictly enjoyn But for any Man to pretend a fondness for Her and still act the contrary cannot but be preposterous and ridiculous W. Why Man can you say then I can't love the Church and go to Meetings too May I not do both J. Yes Friend Will you may do both if you please but then can never be a true Member of either if I may speak truth But to affect the Name of the Church of England when you come to Church only to hear a Sermon refusing to joyn in her Offices of Devotion I know no name to call it by unless you 'll say it 's Legerdemain or a playing at Boo-peep with God himself But wou'd Men be in earnest with God and Man they cou'd never trifle thus with both and like Children play at hide and seek refusing good substantial food for Whimseys and Novelties W. Well Jack I shall not pretend to defend all Men's actions and know not whether any Man can justifie such But J. What wou'd you say at last Will can you make the matter better than it is Prethee is not this an halting between two Opinions or rather juggling with God and the World For since I 'm allow'd to serve God my own way without any restraint what necessity or reason can I pretend for a Masquerade thus publickly to declare my self an Hypocrite W. Well Jack thou 'st said a great deal to convince me that the Dissenters are not Members of the Church of England And yet it cannot but be wish'd that all English-men were really so J. Ay Will. I heartily wish I cou'd see that day it wou'd much better the condition both of Church and State But I remember you laid the fault last time at the Church's door whenas you see now whose it is You all along build upon that unhappy notion that the Church have ‖ Pag. 11. persecuted the Dissenters That they wou'd * Pag. 7. not own 'em for Brethren till of late That they ‖ Pag. 8. counted 'em for Hereticks Schismaticks and God knows what Whereas you see it 's they have made the Breach they have made the Defection from the well-fram'd primitive Reformation of England And pray for what why for such things as they call indifferent Have we receded from the Principles of our Reformers or they and because the Laws of the Reformation found 'em out and sometimes punish'd their Obstinacy shall that be call'd the Church's Persecution and the | Pag. 8. destroying another Party that differ from them only in Circumstantials When indeed to speak the truth and no more 't was an act of our Parliament and not of the Church or rather with more truth and good sense their own fault And I cannot but think it no small abuse and affront of that great and
wise Assembly whose Authority cannot but be obligatory to us when it concurs with that of God's Words to oppose their Acts founded upon so much Prudence and good sense as the keeping Men within the Bounds of Moderation and Order and from such Errors as blind Guides would lead 'em into What d' ye think now of the matter Are the Dissenters of the true Church of England or no Or is it possible they shou'd be so as long as they oppose the true Reformation of England This was the grand Topick wherewith you impos'd on me in our last Conference W. Well Jack after all the do and pother you make about the Church you sti'l see these Corporation-Officers retain their Ensigns of Honour and carry them to Meeting J. Ay Will. Much good may do their Widows with it And yet I cannot but think it far more reputable for those Officers to keep the Peace much better and not upon the Conclusion of a dangerous War to commence a new one against that Reformation to which all Protestants of more than three Kingdoms are so infinitely oblig'd But when our most Glorious Monarch had brought us home Peace then to disturb That and the Church when she was blessing God for it cannot but be ridiculous Besides it cannot but be counted Folly in these Magistrates to slight the Attendants of their Corporation-Honour by going like Owls to an House or a Barn or any blind Hole where they cannot in Honour and Conscience follow 'em Who perhaps as they have for a great part born the Office long before their Worships so it cannot but be counted an honour to 'em to be seen in so good Company What d' ye think now Friend Will of your Bounce Can you blush for your Corporation-Man W. Not I. Let his Horse blush for him J. And so he wou'd were he turn'd into Balaam's Ass and forbid his madness too Will. Hey Jack why so furious you still see these Corporation-Officers go to Meetings Neither can you bind up Magistrates of so great Power and Trust where the Law has left 'em at liberty Why then d' ye fret and teaze your self or what good d'ye get by it J. Well said Will wisely urg'd upon my word yet for all that I 'll have one tug more with you about that matter You think then Reflections on their Wisdom and Honour signifie nothing so they keep but the saddle it matters not whether they come off with credit or disgrace What doughty Knights you make of your Men in an Office I remember Sir you 've entitled one to the Wooden-Sword already with which you say he 's to do * Pag 4. very noble Acts and ‖ Ibid. make Conquests for the Church of England Pray how d' ye make all this out W. Well! since you put me to 't I prove it thus A Corporation-Officer's * Pag. 7. Presence at the Meetings with the Ensigns of Authority is an Evidence that the Doctrine of the Church is Preach'd there And †Ibid. a Declaration that the Pale of the Church is enlarg'd J. Profoundly argued a very noble Act indeed Will Thus we see these mighty Men can work Miracles create Contradictions do more than the Wisdom of the whole Nation cou'd ever effect for above 150 years together Nay One with a Monstrons Sword will out-do the greatest Hero of the Age. And had our most glorious Monarch but known it had been in his Dominions what wou'd he not have done with it long since He 'd not only conquer'd the Power of France but also reduc'd 'em to own their Protestant Subjects if not made 'em all such And I cannot but think him a very stingy Knight hitherto to envy us so great a Blessing not to say have sav'd us some Millions to boot But perhaps he reserves these Conquests for himself alone and will give no other the glory of so noble Actions Will. Thou' rt a wicked Rogue Jack J. No matter for that Will. Since thou 'st made so monstrous a Man of 'm let 's see what he can do at home before we send him abroad to France Spain Italy Germany and all the World over For I can assure you we cannot but wish all Christians no worse than those of the Church of England shou'd be or than her Doctrine wou'd make 'em and all Mankind But Will let me whisper one word in your ear W. What 's that J. Why Friend let that mighty Man make two sticks one before he reconcile the Presbyterian and Independent Parties with the Church When he 's done that he may try his skill with us but till then you 'll give me leave neither to believe your self or another Author And I must tell withal cou'd he bring that whole matter to bear he 'd do more than the Wisdom of the whole Nation cou'd ever effect as I said before For had there been any possible means thereto our Parliament wou'd have done it long since having made it their endeavors ever since the dawn of the Reformation What d' ye think now Friend Will of the whole matter W. You say right the Parliament I believe wou'd have done it but what 's the reason J. Why Will the Dissenters wou'd never hear reason Witness the famous Convocations of James I. and Charles II. In both which they 'd all the advantages of the World to make out their Pretensions and argue the Point calmly So difficult it is to bring those Men who will not live under the Government of the Church and very hardly of the Crown ever to hear reason Your Corporation-Officer can never reconcile so great Contradictions Will. Well! but at last Jack you can't but say our Dissenting Brethren are nearer the Church than any other Protestants in Europe as * P. 7.12.13 Preaching the same Doctrine in the Meetings J. That 's a grand Question Will. Prethee in what sense can that be true The Doctrines of ours as far as she 's distinguish'd from the Universal Church and all others are those of Worship and of Discipline These they never Preach unless it be backward as they say Witches are made by saying the Lord's Prayer How then can they be counted of her Body any more than any others I add withal there are Churches abroad far nearer the Church of England than any the most moderate Dissenters in the Kingdom particularly the Church of Zurich in Switzerland not to say all the Lutherans in Sweden Denmark and the Empire And therefore the great Man in his Office wou'd do well to make Conquests for the Church of England in all those Parts and not trouble us alone with his noble Acts. Or if his Ambition lead him higher as he 's of the Universal Church tho'a very unsound Member thereof in my Opinion he 'd do well to try his skill at Rome Madrid or Paris and see what he 'd get by his Knight-Errantry or whether he can convert the Pope any more than the Quaker did W. Hey Jack where are you sending that Sword which you know never stirs beyond the Corporation-Liberties J. Why Will any where so the Throat of the Church of England been't cut with it to the Mogul the Sophi the Grand Signior or any the remotest Parts of the Universe he 's room enough to make his Conquests and enlarge the Pale of the Church if he be so good at it Will. Well Jack thou 'st tir'd my patience what good will you get by affronting your Brethren thus J. Why then I find Friend Will you expect some great matter for your Service This I suppose dubb'd you Champion of the Wooden-Sword W. Well! I 'll hear no more I 'll get me to the Hall and refresh my self with some Crumbs of Comfort and arm me for another bout Farewell J. Ay ay Friend Will fare thee well I see you love to hear truth as little spoke as you write But pray don't fail to tell the great Man he is not like to set up an Office de Propaganda Fide this Year in England FINIS A REMARK FInding such Arguments in the little Pamphlet of Jack and Will as are generally made use of by the Dissenters and because it seems the Top and Flower of their Railery against the Church of England upon that account some time since I undertook this Defence Not that that Libel deserves an Answer upon the score of its Arguments or fierce Reasoning for in both I find it very deficient but to curb in some measure the Insolence of that Author and of the Original Cause thereof I need not be overforward to inform the World what approbation this Dialogue has had since the first writing of it All that I desire is that it may have that effect upon the Dissenter at which it aims As for the Marginal Remarks they 're for the most part Objections out of him taken from the Octavo Print as cheapest and in most hands there being also a second Dialogue of that Print which will likewise challenge some Remarks hereafter THere will be Printed by the same Hand another Dialogue betwixt Dick and Will Wherein the true English Loyalty is stated