to be receiued as the Lords supper on our part nor any part of the same Supper to bee performed with like ceremonies of zeale and deuotion as the verie taking and receiuing the bread and wine neither can wee so expresse and testifie the same reuerence as by Kneeling Your selfe afore saide then which you neuer spake truer words how the most solemne signe of reuerence is Kneeling The Sacrament is called you say The Communion be it so It is likewise called The new Testament and of the Fathers The Sacrament Eucharisticall or of Thanksgiuing and can we better manifest our thankfull hearts vnto our heauenly father then on bended knees And can there be no Communion euen at the Communion if we Kneele Doth the externall either Kneeling Sitting or Standing further or hinder our Communion betweene Christ and his Church These things dulie considered we ought not to imagine but that Christ aswell is honoured and better by Kneeling in the act of receiuing then by any other site or gesture of bodie whatsoeuer Schis That cannot be seeing it swarueth not onely from his example but also from the practise of all reformed churches except in England which the Papists themselues call Puritano-papisticall by retaining this and other Popish corruptions Pro. The swaruing from the example of Christ is no strong and true Argument that wee dishonour God in so doing For if that were true no Curch should bee pure from dishonouring God You cannot name a Church or companie of Christians in the whole world which in the ministring and receiuing the Supper of the Lord varieth not from Christ his example and that manifoldly which yet in their ministrations doe honour God If England herein doe swarue from all reformed Churches will you therefore conclude that the Church of England onely doth dishonour God We condemne not other Churches for their not Kneeling neither doth any Church nor should you Schismatikes condemne ours for our Kneeling And yet false is it that we Christians in England onely when we communicate do Kneele For all the Churches in Basill Saxonie Denmarke and many in Germanie by the orders of their seuerall Churches at the Communion as well as wee in England doe kneele Either therefore those Churches be not in the number of Churches reformed in your iudgement or they dishonour God by their said Kneeling so well as wee the former of which you will not I thinke say and if you should all Gods faithfull seruants thorowout the world will condemne you for your headie and vncharitable iudgement the latter you should not without blushing affirme and wee are so farre from imagining that thereby wee dishonour God as wee are of minde that God is by no externall site or gesture of bodie at the Communion so honoured as by Kneeling What the Papists thinke of and terme the Church of England wee are not ignorant neither doe regard But how Popish they thinke our Kneeling at the holie Communion to bee iudge by their wordes expressing their thoughts of the holy Supper which they terme A peeuish Supper fitter for Pagans than Christians more meete for dogges then men proceeding directly from the Diuell Can any man thinke our kneeling to bee a Popish corruption either hearing these things or reading them either in Popish writings or truly cited out of Popish bookes They abhorre our bread and wine as Schismaticall as hereticall as leading the high way to Gods wrath and indignation to hell damnation It is no Popish corruption which they so abhorre much lesse abhorre they our Kneeling as Popish yea they abhorre it because it is not Popish They are simple and verie strangers from the Papists opinions of our Church and her ceremonies which so thinke and speake Schis Such Kneeling may be an argument especially to a Papist not vnderstanding our tongue that we haue Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue at least in the Idolatrie of bread-worship which our failng or carelesnesse to auow our Communion with Christ and his Church and not abhorring all Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue cannot be without grieuous sinne Pro. If what last I said be true as no right Papist whether he vnderstand our tongue or not cannot bee doubtfull of our Kneeling cannot possiblie bee any Argument of Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue in Idolatrie Besides what Papist is there but knoweth that the bread wine at the Altar once consecrated by their doctrine are transubstantiated forthwith into the verie bodie and blood of Christ and being so transubstantiated by and by as the onely begotten Sonne of God both of Priest and people vnder the paine of the Pope his curse with diuine honour and worship to be adored To haue these thoughts and to exhibit this adoration vnto the elements this is to communicate with Antichrist and his Synagogue but our reuerend and humble Kneeling at the taking and receiuing the bread wine in a thankfull remembrance of the death of Christ and of all the benefits we are partakers of by his passion that without althought or shew of adoring the bread and wine this is no communicating with Antichrist his Synagogue Hauing these cogitations though we Kneele wee haue Communion with Christ and his Church and hauing not these thoughts wee haue no Communion at all with his Church though wee Sit and Kneele not As therefore it is not the Kneeling but the impious conceits wherewith their hearts bee possessed and replenished when they approch to the Sacrament that maketh the Papists to be Idolaters so neither doth our Kneeling exclude vs from all Communion with Christ and his Church nor your Sitting that ioyneth you in fellowship with the same As grosse Idolatrie may you commit in not Kneeling as any persons euer did or as the Papists now doe in Kneeling But we charge not you as you do vs yet very vncharitably whose part were rather to conceiue better of them whose doctrine in the most principal points of Religion about the Sacrament especially is one and the same with yours light being not more contrarie to darknesse nor heauen to hell then what both ye which Sit and wee which Kneele doe hold therein is opposite and contrarie to the doctrine of the Synagogue of Rome Wherefore as we say not that yee differing from vs that Kneele haue no Communion with Christ and his church because ye Sit and doe commit a grieuous sinne did yee not offend against publique order for that with vs yee Kneele not no more should ye haue so much as an imagination that we haue Communion with Antichrist and his Synagogue because wee Kneele and doe commit a grieuous sinne for that with you we Sit not when wee doe receiue especially seeing God doth not forbid and Christian authoritie commandeth vs to Kneele Sittng kneeling are but outward ceremonies nothing to the substance of Religion concerning the true communion with Christ and his Church at all and of themselues indifferent did not the
chargeth Christ and his Apostles with want of reuerence which is absurd R. Not a whit For Christ and his Apostles did that which the custome both of those times and of their country made common and vsuall your selfe hath confessed And therfore both he and they did that which was both ciuill and comely Againe our Sauiour might do that surpassingly wel which we cānot Any action beseemed his person because without sin He graced all his gestures no gesture graced him But we alas we are sinfull wretches repairing vnto the Lords boord partly like supplicants humbly suing for the remission of our sinnes partly to shew our thankfulnesse for the comforts and benefites we haue receiued and hope to bee partakers of through Christ. And therefore haue iust cause euen most humbly to kneele as we do THE SECOND OBIECTION S. KNeeling in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill R. From the commendation of Sitting how quickly are you come to the open condemnation of Kneeling at the L. table And a wonder it is if he that once falleth into a debasing of holy established orders in a church come not to an vtter detestation of them in the end Take heede in time If I should reason thus Sitting in the receiuing the Lords Supper hath an apparance of euill therfore to be auoided would you allow this argument for good No more doe I approue your kind of reasoning And yet sooner will I iustifie mine then you shall proue your Antecedent M. Beza saith that Kneeling in receiuing the signes hath a shew not of euill as you say but of godly and Christian veneration And this saying is true Did but an earthly King or Prince offer vs pardon for our transgressing his temporall statutes would it become vs or carried it a shew of reuerence to his Maiestie to receiue it Sitting And when grace and pardon for all our sinnes in the Sacrament of Christ his Supper is offered vnto vs by the seales of bread and wine carieth it a shew of euill to receiue it kneeling It is called the Sacrament of thankesgiuing euen for most heauenly benefites vnto Almightie God and with what better action of the bodie can wee testifie our thankfulnesse then on bended knees We offer vp our selues euen our soules and bodies an holy and liuely sacrifice vnto our God and is there any gesture that better becommeth such Priests then Kneeling Is this mysterie of so great waight as the open contempt thereof brings damnation and shall the receiuing thereof with the greatest shew of reuerence be counted if not an apparant euill yet an apparance of euill May the knee be bent at the name of Iesus and may we not kneele at the receiuing the holy Sacrament of his bodie and blood but we either do ill or seeme so to doe Must we humble our harts which is the greater not bend our knees which is the lesse Must we humble our hearts and not expresse our inward humiliation by outward Kneeling S. We may not R. Why so S. For it carrieth an apparance of Bread-worship Therefore to be auoided 1. Thes. 5. 12. R. You must iudge of our Kneeling by our doctrine as we iudge of the Papists kneeling by their doctrine we would not neither could we iustly condemne the Papists for their kneeling were not their doctrine most heretical and blasphemous Neither ought you to condemne our kneeling at the Cōmunion except you can shew the doctrine of the church of England is for the adoration of bread and wine Suscipitur ab artolatris Eucharistiae Sacramentum flexis poplitibus The Bread-worshippers receiue the Sacrament Eucharisticall on bended knees and here in England the faithfull take it with the same gesture of bodie whereat some are offended Sed meo iudicio nullâ de causa but in my iudgement without cause saith a learned man a stranger For both of them adore they that is the Papists the bread these viz. the faithfull in England not bread but Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens I am sure there is not a syllable in the Communion booke that importeth any shew of this euill you speake of and our doctrine is as all the world doth know how to reserue cary about lift vp or worship the Sacrament of the Lords Sup. Supper is contrarie to the ordinance of Christ S. Doctrine and practise must go together otherwise we pull downe with one hand that wee build with the other As he that teacheth that an Idol is nothing in the world and yet sitteth at Table in an Idols Temple destroieth with his act that he built with his speech 1. Cor. 8. 4. 10. R. That the practise of our church concurreth not with her doctrine is a reproch laid very vniustly vpon a most religious nation should much vex your heart that euer you had such a thought of a Church most famous renowmed thorowout the world for the puritie of doctrine which shee doth professe and accordingly practise And therfore either make your words good or confesse your great ouerslip THE THIRD OBIEGTION S. IT is a monument of Idolatrie deuised by man of no necessarie vse in the seruice of God Therefore to be remoued Deut. 7. 25 26. 12. 3. 2. King 18. 4. Isa. 30. 32. 2. Cor. 6. 17. Iude 23. R. Be intreated I pray you to marke whither your affections not guided by discretion haue caried you At the first you said not that Kneeling at the Communion was an euill action but not the best nor after that how it was in it selfe euill but An apparance of euill But now forsooth it is a monument of Idolatrie which is euill indeed Thus one euill thought bringeth another Take heede of them in time else bring you to worse Besides this assertion is as voide of reason among men as it is of truth in religion For as to Kneele at the holy Communion is no Idolatrie nor so much as apparance thereof in sound Diuinitie so is Kneeling not in the predicament of substance but of Site And therefore no Monument by the rule of reason But be it a Momument is our kneeling a Monument of Idolatrie Kneeling at the Masse is grosse and palpable Idolatrie Is therefore kneeling also at the Communion a Monument of Idolatrie Last of al let Kneeling be of neuer so impious and detestable vse among Papists yet is the same gesture of good necessarie vse in our church For hereby as by the seemliest behauior for so religious a seruice we testifie the earnest and most zealous deuotion of our souls when we do either pray or praise God as we do both at the receiuing the sacrament So that were it a Monument of Idolatrie as it is nothing lesse deuised by man yet because it is of so good and necessarie vse in our seruice of God euen in your owne iudgement and conscience and that from these your words it is not to be remoued And
established they should take the Communion Kneeling Wilfull open Schismatikes do more offend the church then either priuie heretiques which secretly vndermine the truth or close malefactors whatsoeuer their transgressions be and therefore deserue the sharper castigation Before Kneeling by authoritie was enioined it was lawfull for vs and all men to question about the lawfulnesse thereof but being once appointed now to resuse to bow sauoureth not of his spirit which said If any man be contentious we haue no such custome nor the Church of God And therefore he that shall say how that should be more punished then this being no Prince nor called to counsell passeth the limits both of discretion and modestie finding fault with that which he cannot iustly mislike and ought rather with a meeke and readie minde to performe then masterly to controll For what are you or I that wee should condemne the publique and allowed orders of our Church in matters indifferent and ceremoniall and whose lawfulnesse euen by your last wordes is questionable OBIECTION 9. S. IT is so doubtfull and disputable to say no more that a man can not haue faith in the doing of it Ergo. Rom. 14. 22 23. R. He that shall marke your words considerately will hardly thinke that you are of mind how it is a thing questionable doubtfull and disputable whether to Kneele in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord be lawfull or no. For you say expresly that a man for his Kneeling cannot haue faith and so in Kneeling sinneth which is the worst that can bee said thereof Besides you insinuate that hauing said your worst you could yet say more against the same which would bee knowen But whatsoeuer you either thinke or haue said or can say we would ye should know that we are of mind that our Gouernours do well haue Gods word for their warrant â—n commanding vs to Kneele and that we do not ill neither sinne in obeying their commandements For we are verely perswaded in our consciences that we please God in kneeling should sin did we Sit not Kneele as many do For Gods word is both for the approbation of all things making for order comelines and edification in the Church of which nature we are out of doubt and haue prooued our Kneeling is and against all disorders and vndecent gestures tending to the decay of godly deuotion in Christian people as the inreuerent I say not irreligious Sitting at the Lords table as at a common and prophane banquet seemeth to be and is Wherefore I do thus argue against you That for the doing whereof a man may haue faith is to be done But for his Kneeling in the receiuing the holy Supper a man may haue faith Therefore it is to be done or we are to Kneele in the receiuing the Supper of the Lord. And against your Sitting I doe thus reason and cut you with your owne knife That for the doing whereof no man among vs can haue faith is not to be done but for his Sitting in the receiuing the holy Supper of the Lord no man among vs can haue faith Therefore it is not to be done or vsed The proposition is your owne or rather S. Pauls The Assumption is iustifiable for you haue no warrant from Gods word nor mans law for Sitting as we haue for Kneeling yea by this your Sitting a triple fault is committed For first Sitting at the receiuing the Lords Supper is without ground of Scripture yea is flat against Gods word because it is against publique order vndecent and tendeth both to the nourishing of strife among brethren and engendreth confusion among vs all Next it is directly opposite to the publique ordinance of our Church And lastly it is very offensiue both to the whole State and to millions of Gods people who like well and allow of Kneeling and mislike of Sitting at the Supper of the Lord. S. They which mislike of Kneeling in the act of receiuing both in England and in other reformed Churches are neither few nor vnlearned nor vngodly R. Now reason you from examples which kind of reasoning is of no validitie Be it you haue ten thousand in this land and of them a thousand neither vnlearned nor vngodly Ministers yet are they but priuate men against an whole State One singular man bringing only the Scriptures of God for the maintenance of his opinion is of regard when all these are not without Gods word conflicting with a whole Church And as for Churches reformed in other places I know there be that like better of their owne Sitting or Standing according to the fashions of their seuerall countries yet cannot you name any one of them all that mislikes of our Kneeling S. Your argument from the authority of the Church is only probable not demonstratiue and so vnable to breed faith R. I haue proued the lawfulnes of our Kneeling by arguments more then probable drawne and deriued from the word of God and so most forceable to engender faith whereunto I will adde because examples do so pierce and preuaile with you the examples of D. Rainolds Sparkes M. Chaderton and Knewstubs who were not so wedded to their owne opinions and other mens examples at the first but they afterwards vpon better aduisement and conference with most godly and worthy men altered their minds and promised conformity euen to all things required and so to this our Kneeling whereof some of them haue left most famous and publique monuments both to their owne high praise and credit and the singular benefit of Gods people to the serious and conscionable perusall whereof and of the premises I doe verie friendly referre you S. God reueale the truth in this controuersie and grant it may bee embraced to his glorie and the peace of his Church Amen R. A good conclusion whereunto from my heart and soule I likewise do say Amen So bee it THE SECOND DIALOGVE about Kneeling in the very act of receiuing the holy Communion Betweene an humorous Schismatike and a setled Professor Confes. Sueuic Cap. 14. Ciuilibus legibus quae cum pietate non pugnant eò quisque Christianus paret pomptiùs quò fide Christi est imbutus pleniùs That is The more faith that any Christian is endued with the more obedient is he vnto all ciuill ordinances which be not contrary vnto godlinesse LONDON Printed by Henry Ballard dwelling on Adling-hill 1608. The contents of the second Dialogue Whether Kneeling at the Communion be an institution of man or no. Sectio 1. Whether Kneeling be vsed without all respect of reuerence vnto God in the Church of England Sect. 2. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a wil-worshippe Sect. 3. Whether Christ his example in euery thing at the ministration of the Communion is necessary to be followed Sect. 4. Whether our Kneeling be Popish and Idolatrous Sect. 5. Whether Kneeling hindreth the sweete familiarity betweene Christ and his Church Sect. 6. Whether Christ sat of purpose Sect. 7.
a thing lawlesse without rule and sinners in Gods â—ies be as disordered and lawlesse men whom neither Gods word nor mans law can rule or make obedient Hence the Beniamites which defloured the Leuits wife and the Prophet Helies children are called the Sonnes or men of Belial Hence the Papistes abroad whose chiefest religon is mans tradition and Schismatikes at home the authors and abettors of confusion in the Church be Belials sonnes Christ hath no communion with Belial nor Christians with the sonnes of Belial either the idolatrous Papists or the lawlesse Schismatikes these hauing separated themselues from vs because of our orderly Kneeling and obedience wee hauing seuered our selues from the other for their manifest impieties Schis Come out and touch no vncleane thing are the wordes of the Apostle which either he wrote without warrant or we must sinne in Kneeling Pro. God bee thanked we haue fulfiled the Apostles words we are come out wee haue left Babylon and next we doe as little touch tast or see any idolatrous pollutions or haue communion with that which is vncleane in our Kneeling as you or any others in your owne opinion neuer so pure and reformed haue either in Sitting bowing or Standing by which sites of body idolatrie hath beene and is committed as well as by Kneeling They which onely and alwaies commit idolatrie bee not they which Kneele for then neuer should we Kneele but wee commit idolatrie and neuer should any commit idolatrie but such as Kneele both which to bee false our experience doth tell vs who find that both the most religious most deuoâ—t doe Kneele when they serue their God and the most idolatrous and superstitious the Papistes only excepted do neuer Kneele at their chiefest exercises of their deuotions Thinke therefore iudiciously of our Kneeling as it deserueth and neither condemne any men for Kneeling if they so do not idolatrouslie or superstitiouslie nor appooue them which Kneele if thereby they dishonour God Blame the Papists who by their Kneeling doe the greatest idolatrie that can bee but blame not vs which most sincerely thereby do serue God Christ not being more opposite to Belial than is the Popish masse to our Communion and the manner of administration of the same albeit both the Papists and we of the Church of England in receiuing they of their Masse we of the Communion in kneeling be like Schis Doth not God straightly forbid vs to serue him as idolaters doe their Gods Pro. You know or should not be ignorant how God had prescribed vnto his people the Israelites a certaine forme and manner how he would of them be worshipped whereunto whosoeuer should adde or any thing take or varie from the same hee was liable to Gods heauie wrath and displeasure The Israelites were faultie herein and therefore great and most grieuous were the punishments not onely threatned but inflicted also by God vpon the people of Israel for their disobedience But we Christians haue onely generall rules no speciall forme of seruice giuen vs by Christ as the Israelites had an assertion so true as some of you Sectaries haue a fancy that because God hath set downe none such in his word the Church therefore should be bound to none at all no not so much as to a forme of prayer and haue euen made praiers against ordinary and common praiers When God therefore hath left vs free blame vs not as Idolaters if differing from Papists in their Idolatrie wee be like vnto them in some indifferent ceremony or other and rather thinke though wee bee like them and they like vs in kneeling yet as they cannot be said to be good Christians and to serue God though they kneele so are not we to be counted Papists and to be Idolatrous though we kneele For by one and the same gesture both they doe worshippe their Idol and wee our Sauiour like in action most vnlike in affection neither they by Gods word iustified because they are like vs nor we condemned being in that ceremony like vnto them Schis These things considered can kneeling wherewith Papists doe honour their breaden God be honourable to Christ in his holy Sacrament Pro. Yea these things rightly considered euen kneeling wherewith the Papists do honor their breaden God may be to the honor of Christ in his holy Sacrament For by that gesture of body whereby they do worship their false God an idoll by the same do we worship the true God our Sauiour sitting at the right hand of the Father in the heauens Now let vs know at the length what the other consideration is why this kneeling is or should be so hatefull vnto God and men SECT 6. Whether Kneeling hindreth the sweet familiarity betweene Christ and his Church Schis SEcondly whereas the end of a Sacrament is to informe the outward man by sensible demonstration it pleaseth our M. Christ to vse such gesture as agreeably with bread and wine setteth out our Communion and spirituall familiarity with him and reioycing in him And therefore as he saith If any heare my voice and open the doore I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me so hee saith Many shall come from the East and West and shall sit with Abraham c. By which places it appeareth that as by Supper so by Sitting familiar reioycing or reioycing familiarity is expressed In which respect the Communion is called the Lords Supper and not a sacrifice and wee are said to bee partakers of the Lords table and not of an Altar And therefore not Kneeling but Sitting is for receiuing Pro. The end of all Sacraments is to informe not the outward onely but the inward man also by sensible demonstrations and therefore bee they called Gods visible word and seene engendring and confirming Faith and edifying the Soule as well as the Word audible and heard And as the word heard and beleeued diuersly doeth affect the soule and to diuers blessed and good purposes so doth the visible word the sacraments especially of the body and blood of Christ. For as Circumcision was a Seale of the righteousnes of Faith that is a testimonie confirming the Faith of Abraham so to euery one which worthily doth partake of the bodie and blood of Christ his verie receauing is a sealing to his faith that of Christ the body was giuen and the blood shed for his sinnes Next it teacheth them how the Sonne of God tooke on him the nature of man that by the oblation of his body and blood he might take away the sinnes of the world Besides the memorie of that sacrifice propitiatorie is made perpetual and thankes ascribed from time to time at the participating of those misteries vnto the blessed dutie By communicating at this holy Sacrament we learne moreouer and do beleeue that as the benefits of Christ are ours and doe appertaine vnto vs in so much as neither the members to the bodie nor the branches to
holy vnto the Lord without which or the like they differ not from things common and prophane tables Your words be reproachfull both to the holy and to the Church of England S. May not this promise seeme at least to the simple to make way at least to the Popish consecration P. You would belike haue vs blindely to come and take the Sacrament as we do our ordinary food or if we vse any words though neuer so heauenly we do Popishly consecrate in your opinion The words and prayers vttered do make the bread wine holy which before were common This is consecration we acknowledge yet not Popish but Christian S. How grieuous a sin it is to scandalize the weak may appeare by the words of Christ Viz who-soeuer shall offend one of these little ones it were better for him that a mill-stone were hanged about his necke and that hee were drowned in the depth of the Sea P. Our sauiour speaketh against giuing offence by open breach of Gods holy commandements or any of them If you can shew any precept of God either by the Churches enioyning vs to kneele or by our kneeling violated then you may iustly conclude vs to be subiect to the mentioned cursse If you cannot whosoeuer is or be offended weake or strong their offence rashly is assumed not giuen and they be more to feare the wrath of God for being offended without cause then wee for kneeling hauing no word of God to the contrary S. Saint Paule likewise doth say if meat offend my brother I will eate no flesh while the world standeth that I may not offend my brother P. The like are you and I and all true Christians to say touching all things in our power to do or leaue vndone but when by authority we are directed as at the receiuing of the Sacramaent we are then are we not for offending of others pretending them-selues to be weake to leaue that vndone which wee are inioyned to performe Disobedience is as the sin of witch-craft offensiue to all good mindes obedience vnto lawfull Iniunctions may be offensiue either to some weake or wicked persons but neuer-the-lesse to be yeelded except God say to the contrary without scruple of conscience S. What an offence or scandall is the Apostle sheweth in the same chap. viz. The occasiō of falling to the weake P. As how S. The particular offence he speaketh of is this Notwithstanding the Ghospell was preached at conuenient time and that by the Apostles yet many wanted knowledge euen vnto that time did eate as a thing sacrifised vnto an Idol of whome if any should see a man indued with knowledge sit at table in the Idolls Temple his weake consciences might occasinatly be emboldened to eate those things which are sacrificed to Idols P. This instance of yours is to be regarded The Apostle speaketh of Idolatries or meates not consecrated but euen sacrificed vnto Idols This meate so abused the Apostle condemneth not as vnlawfull to bee eaten of Christians But hee blameth those Christians who in the Idols temple among Idolaters did eate the same meate to the offence of all Christians especially of the weake Now be it that Kneeling as the meate sacrificed vnto Idols hath beene abused of Papists yet as meate so sacrificed might bee both sold in the market and bought and eaten of Christians priuately or without offence so the gesture of Kneeling abused by Idolaters may be well vsed of Christians Which may show how farre you Schismatickes are out of the way of truth and from the minde of the first and primitiue Christians who thinke that nothing eyther deuised or abused by Papists may or can bee well vsed in reformed Churches and therefore doe vtterly condemne among other things this our Kneeling But if you finde vs to kneele in the idols temple offending thereby the weake and making them to fall and confirming of Idolaters then deserue wee the blame which those temporizers at Corinth deseruedly did incurre But this you charge vs not withall vnlesse you thinke our Temples to bee Idols houses and all communicants to be idolaters Besides it was free for Christians to eate or not to eate those meates so it were not with offence to the weake but it is not free for vs of the Church of England to Kneele or not to Kneele at the holy Communion For whether we please the weake or offend them we are necessarily to kneele otherwise if we kneele not wee may please the weake you speake of but shall offend our gouernors and peaceable men whom we ought to please and if we Kneele wee shall offend the weake but please others whome we are more to regarde In this case therefore wherein wee cannot choose but offend some or other wee choose rather to offend the weake then the strong priuate then publick persons a few than an whole state yea wee choose rather to doe our duties conscionably then to offend for we offend not in obeying lawfull directions but they offend whosoeuer they be which take offence afore it is giuen S. If Saul would neuer eate flesh rather then he would offend in this case because in so doing hee should sinne against Christ how dare a Christian hauing knowledge Kneele in the presence of any who for want of knowledge receiues superstitiouslie P. In his case not in this case about Kneeling Paul would not offend This case of ours is not Pauls case For touching meates Paul was at liberty to eate or not to eate neither God nor by his authority man hauing forbidden meate or any kinde of meate but lawfull power hath imposed this order of Kneeling vpon our shoulders whereas he therefore was free we are not Where orders well were established who euer was more pliant to obserue them who a greater aduersarie to those which would not obey and fulfill them then this Apostle Paul without respect of any seeming to bee weake In this case where orders bee set downe for the well ordering of Christians said he euer he would neuer keep them then thereby offend the weake Nay he both prescribed orders to be kept not to bee contemned and reproued them which would not keepe them but were contentious Therefore not after the example onely of the Apostle but according to the commandemēt also of God we may yeeld obedience to the higher powers and their lawfull Impositions about matters in their owne nature till they bee either prescribed or prohibited indifferent such is our Kneeling at the holy Table where in charitie we are to thinke none superstitiously doe receiue and if some do it is their priuate offence no publike fault of the whole Church Furthermore when you grant that some persons very religiously receiue when others superstitiously doe so see you not how with one and the same breath you graunt the said Kneeling to bee a gesture indifferent which before you denied abused by some well vsed and without sinne by others Which ouer-throweth vtterly your
into the celestiall paradise Bolton that first broched among vs those opinions which Browne afterward and his followers embraced as heauenly Oracles he saw his error at the last was ashamed of them and repented but how wanting grace to confesse so much before God and his Church like another Iudas he hung himselfe and so desperately finished his daies Coppinger that new prophet and copartner in Hackets conspiracie for pretended reformation he had a sight too of his errors and follies at the length and an insight also into the truth yea and after a sort repented but being destitute of grace to retract his errors and not able to abide the terrors of a troubled and guiltie conscience he famished himselfe to death as the storie of him doeth report On the other side Arthington his example is memorable he was vexed and pursued with the inward and most heauy iudgements of God vpon his soule so long as he tooke Hacket cursed Hacket to be his soueraigne King and Sauiour but he no sooner saw his errors fell into a loathing of them and made his recantation and reuocation of them but hee found much peace and comfort in his soule to his euerlasting welfare as himselfe confesseth in his booke therof vnto the Lords of the late Queens Counsel Clapham that out of England went first into the Low-countries afterwards into Scotland after that againe into ihe Low-countries then againe into Scotland and once more into the Low-countries and all about the controuersies betweene the Brownists and vs had a restlesse and perplexed mind and could neuer be quiet till he fell into a detestation of Brownisme and their founders the disciplinarians whom before he highly accounted of and had both returned home and reconciled himselfe wholly vnto the Church of England from which he had estraied as his Antidotum doth witnesse Such another was Pet. Faire-lambe as arrant a Brownist as euer liued one that for the propagating of that cursed sect had trauailed Sea and Land tossed in bodie troubled in mind neuer quiet and at rest til God opened his eies as he did Sauls that he might see and giuen him power to embrace the truth yea and to testifie the same by his publique Recantation extant and in Print before God and the world I am of mind my good Lord that there be among vs not a few of the Sectaries of al sorts which with Bolton and Coppinger do see their grosse ouer-sights and errors in the points controuerted betweene them and vs but few there be which with Arthington Clapham and Faire-lambe haue the face and grace to confesse them to the world deeming diabolical pertinacy to bee godly constancy Therfore that this their frowardnes may appere euen as it is both diuellish and hellish I haue set downe best knowne to your wisedome the examples premised of persons wherof all euery of them haue both openly retracted yea and by permanent monuments commended vnto the ages succeeding the reuocation of their slips and consent vnto the truth in which their doing they haue purchased to themselues no discredite at all but a very honest reputation among all good and wise men But all men haue not grace yea of them which haue it few haue the power openly and vnder their owne hands to reclame and retract that which erroneously they once haue held And surely thogh it be necessary that all and euery one which goeth astray from the truth do repent and leaue his wicked opinions yet that men should testifie their conuersion and comming home againe after one and the same fashion it is not necessary and vrgeable And therefore doe I commend mine Antagonist sometime M. Seffray who though he disliked yea and depraued our Kneeling at the holy Communion asmuch as any man could do witnesse his obiections following chusing rather both to abide the censure of authority yea and to be without the comforts which they participate that with one heart and mind brotherly and orderly come vnto the table of the Lord then so much as to bend his knees at the receiuing that most blessed and heauenly Sacrament yet notwithstanding after friendly and brotherly conference had with him thereabout altered his mind allowing that which before hee condemned He hath not the power weake man either to thanke him who after God hath opened his eies or publikely to disclaime his errors but he hath the grace for to abhorre them as monsters and so much hath testified by his late orderly and submissiue kneeling in the very act of receiuing the sacred bread and wine at the Communion the last Easter in the place of his now most vsual abiding A worthy recantation not verbal to be heard but real to be seene or heard of which I praise God for and pray that he may doe the like in other things ceremoniall which had he performed he had still enioyed a sweete and competent liuing to the singular refreshing of many a Christian soule hauing a very good gift in preaching and to the temporall benefiting of himselfe and his which he hath forgone as the forementioned Heliodorus did his Bishopricke chusing rather to leaue it then to condemne his vanities Whose example not in obstinate maintaining that which is erroneous and ill but in yeelding vnto the truth discouered if the other man whose printed Pamphlet or Proposition accompanied as himselfe thinketh with arguments impregnable as will appeare with vntruths blasphemies and impieties intollerable about the foresaid Kneeling at the Communion I haue here answered and confuted will follow I shall thinke my paines very well imployed if not yet shall the world see and perceiue the difference betweene a man simplie and ignorantly erring and a peruerted and froward Schismatike they being willing to heare and learne the other stopping his eares and hardening his heart against the truth the one flexible the other incorrgible the one of ill becomming good the other of bad prouing worse of a Schismatike at the first an Heretike at the last For no better shall I esteeme him if he hold on and the end of Schisme is Heresie if not Atheisme His cause is the very same and none other then M. Seffrais was his reasons the same too in effect though moe for number yet not stronger in force If therefore the said Seffray doth find in his iudgement the truth to be with me which is stronger then both and what either they haue broched or any man can obiect against the same and thereupon hath yeelded and resigned himselfe thereunto there is no cause the other man whosoeuer he be should frowardly and fondly standout Reasons ought but if they will not let this example moue him to conforme The former of these Conferences hath beene performed as the truth is both by mouth and pen by mouth authority nominating me therunto and M. Seffray calling for the same at my hands and was had at mine owne dwelling house in Suffolke the last Haruest by pen at the desire of the said Seffray
Ministers to the whole Church of England And if some Communicants do sit all the time of prayer and after fall downe on their knees when the bread and wine is offered them such Communicants would be taught told that as in this their Kneeling they do that which both the lawes of our Church doth require and also pleaseth God so their not Kneling all the time of praier is a most euident argument how they neither approch vnto the Supper of the Lord with such preparation as is requisite nor being come doe be haue themselues as they should For sure I am and you cannot denie if aduisedly you mark the order of our Communion booke that albeit the Minister is directed somtimes to Kneele sometimes to Stand and neuer to Sit yet the people are by the said booke to Sit neuer but alwayes to Kneele from the first to the last THE EIGHT OBIECTION S. IT is vrged being an humane inuention aboue the commandement of God R. Our Kneeling in the receiuing of the Lords Supper is not an inuention proceeding meerly from the wit inuention of man but as afore hath beene said is so from man as withall it is the inuention and institution of God Quaeritar saith master Caluin writing about Kneeling at solemne praiers and may as well be referred to Kneeling at the solemne receiuing of the supper of the Lord it is demanded whether it be a tradition of man which euery man may lawfully refuse or neglect Now marke his answere I say saith he that it is so of man as it is also of God It is of God in respect that it is a part of that comelinesse the care and keeping whereof is commanded vnto vs by the Apostle It is of man in regard that it specially betokeneth that which had in generalitie rather beene pointed to then declared So Caluin And this the Church both lawfully may and commendably doth vrge and call for at our hands S. It is vrged aboue the commandement of God Ergo Math. 15. 3 4 5. 6. R. How proue you the Antecedent S. I proue it thus The Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a communicant not Kneeling but not for giuing them to a Communicant that neither can nor will examine himselfe before he eateth and drinketh at the Lords table Ergo. R. Your Antecedent is true in part and in part not so True it is that the Minister is to bee suspended for giuing the bread and wine to a Communicant that can and wil not kneele and his punishment is deserued For vnworthie is he to minister that refuseth to obserue the orders of that Church whereof he is a Minister Caluin himselfe was not onely suspended but also expulsed from the ministerie at Geneua and that for his stubborn refusing to administer the Lords Supper according to the order of that Church There is no Church vnder the Sunne but will haue the rites ceremonies there established to be inuiolably kept both of Minister and people Againe the Antecedent is vntrue For though Ministers bee not suspendable for giuing the Sacrament vnto many that wil not examine themselues afore hand why should they seeing neither Gods word nor mans law doth impose such a charge vpon any Minister namely to examin all Communicants who are to examine themselues yet some that will not themselues examine as notorious offenders Schismatikes the like they are not to admit vnto the holy Communion no more then they are to receiue the prophane Sitters and if they doe admit such they are to be inquired after and punished by the lawes of our Church Besides Ministers bee to admit neither ignorant ideots nor yong Infants or children that cannot examine themselues For if they do there is punishment by our lawes appointed for them as well as for those that allow the refractarie Sitters to participate at the holy table though the punishment be neither the same nor so soone inflicted S. You will say peraduenture that the breach of the peace of the Church is to be punished seuerely R. You know that where the offence is not small the punishment should not be light and where the disobedience is great the correction should not be small S. They breake not the peace of the Church which cleaue fast to Gods word in euerie thing with a meeke and quiet spirit R. You shall neuer be able to proue either your Sitting to be a cleaning fast to Gods word or our Kneeling to be a swaruing from the same But I haue shewen which mee thinks you should see how the same Kneeling is the lawful and laudable ordinance both of God and man euen of men of God or good men And therefore in mine opinion it can be no token either of meeke spirits highly to Sit when their brethren lowly do Kneele or of quiet minds obstinately to denie obedience to the orders and constitutions of a most renowmed and reformed Church S. The peace of the Church is more broken by transgressing a manifest and substantiall precept of God then by not obseruing a ceremonie whose lawfulnesse is questionable and therefore that should bee punished more then this R. You that will not be censured by the Church will and here doe censure the doings of a right Christian Church but from what spirit this doth proceede be your self iudge What manifest and substantiall precept of God there is which you say here is transgressed you haue not yet shewen and I would faine see And though you can name as you cannot any such commandement broken yet let me put you in minde how the violating euen of the morall and substantiall precepts of God haue sometimes and that by God himselfe in mans eies and afore the world with lesse rigor and seueritie beene punished then the contemptuous breach euen of ceremoniall ordinances For what I pray you was Adams eating the forbidden fruit the Bethshemites prying into the Ark of God Vzza his touching of the same Vzziah his offering of incense the mans gathering of stickes vpon the Sabbath day but violations or breaches of lawes not absolutely morall in themselues but either typical or ceremonial and yet what sinnes were euer so punished as some of them what more horrible in Gods eies then all of them In the new testament touching the Supper of the Lord which we haue now in hand the Apostle saith That whosoeuer shall eat this bread c. vnworthily shall be guiltie of the body blood of the Lord eateth and drinketh his own damnation c. procureth weaknes sicknes and bodily death Now who were they in that Church and at that time which did eate vnworthily and therefore were so chastised were they not such as transgressed and would not obey nor keepe the receiued orders of Gods people and despised his Church euen the publique place appointed for Gods worship Like vnto those that wil receiue Sitting when by order
Whether Christ prescribed a speciall gesture for the Communion Sect. 8. Whether the prayer at the deliuery of the bread and wine be iustifiable Sect. 9. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a gesture indifferent Sect. 10. Whether Kneeling at the Communion as much is to be abhorred as the worshipping of Images Sect. 11. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be a shew of euill and the greatest scandall Sect. 12. Whether the Kings commandement to Kneele maketh Kneeling to be no sinne Sect. 13. ⧠THE SECOND DIAlogue about kneeling at the holy Communion BETWEENE AN HVMEROVS Schismaticke and a setled Professor Schis THE proposition which I hold and will maintaine is this namely that kneeling in the very act of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion cannot be without sinne Pro. What heare I Cannot kneeling no not in the verie act I say not of eating and drinking but of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine and that not priuately but publiquely nor prophanely but in the holy Communion be without sin what vncouth what horrible what hellish assertion do I heare Had you said how many both men and women may and some doe sinne euen in kneeling at the Lords table and when they take eate and drinke the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion you had said that which by lamentable experience we find to be too true but that all persons whatsoeuer which receiue that holy Sacrament Kneeling doe sinne yea euen in kneeling cannot but sinne or that their said Kneeling cannot be without sinne who can so much as thinke this without great sinne who can speake it without offence who can heare it without horror and detestation From what Africke came this monster From what hell this error Name the brocher shew the Auctor If thou canst doe neither of them tell yet thy suggestions Schismatike which make thee to bee of this minde SECT 1. Whether Kneeling at the Communion be an institution of man and how Schis IT is to bee vnderstood that howsoeuer Kneeling may in itself considered be esteemed a naturall gesture of the bodie as Standing Sitting c yet in this case it is by institution of man For neither nature nor custom doth teach vs ordinarily to kneele when we eate and drinke neither doth the word require Kneeling in this case Pro. Indeed Nature teacheth vs whether we eat drinke or whatsoeuer we doe to doe all things decently and with good maners but prescribeth no certaine forme and maner in eating and drinking how we are to eat or drinke iudging all drinking and eating to be commendably which is ciuilly done And the God of Nature will haue all things in his church decently in order performed not setting down a maner how but leauing the determination of formes to the discretion of his people as deeming all things to bee commendably which are comely and orderly done in his Church As then whatsoeuer the maner is of our eating and drinking commonly in priuate houses and taking our corporall repast if it be ciuilly taken is by the direction of Nature her selfe euen so whatsoeuer the forme and maner of our taking eating and receiuing the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion is if it be orderly taken and decently done is from God and his word Albeit therefore neither Nature enioineth vs to Kneele no more then to Sit or Stand when we eate and drinke nor the word or holy Scripture to Kneele no more then to Stand or Sit when we receiue the Sacrament yet as our common eating and drinking according to the laudable customs of our country where we liue is from Nature though instituted by man or made vsuall by custome euen so our Kneeling in eating and drinking the sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion is from the word of God originally though instituted by man inasmuch as God is the fountaine of all decent orders in his Church as after God Nature is the author of all ciuilitie good maners among men in the world Thinke not then how Kneeling at the Communion is by Institution of man or meerely from man not required by the word For both man appointeth and God approueth and by authoritie from God man appointeth and by the ministerie of man God approueth our Kneeling And so our said Kneeling is not so much the institution of man as of God and required in his word So that in Kneeling though sometimes and some people may yet alwayes and all persons do not sinne yea all Communicants if otherwise they offend not doe serue and please God by kneeling SECT 2. Whether Kneeling be vsed without all respect of reuerence vnto God in the Church of England Schis IF it be by institution it must be either in respect of a more reuerend receiuing or not Pro. Of all reuerend maners of receiuing the holy Sacrament Kneeling is the most reuerend and so and none otherwise instituted and vsed by vs of the reformed Church in England Schis But if the most solemne signe of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world be without al respect of reuerence and that by institution of authority in so high a part of Gods seruice may not such Kneeling be iudged if not a grosse mocking of Christ as was the souldiers bowing of Knees before him yet a taking of the name of God in vain seeing all significations of honor in Gods seruice ought to be to the honor of his name an oath not religiously intended as in the nature thereof it ought to be to the houour of God is the taking of Gods name in vaine Pro. Is kneeling at the communion a signe a solemne yea the most solemne signe of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world by your owne confession and may not yea cannot that solemne that most solemne signe of reuerence at the receiuing of bread and wine at the Communion be expressed without sinne which is your proposition Who obseruing beleeuing these your words which are most true but will fall into a loathing of the said assertion But your said proposition is not more odious then your saying that the most solemne kind of reuerence vsed in these parts of the world is without all respect of reuerence and that by institution of authoritie is false and slanderous For neither do all Churches in these parts of the world either vse to kneele or kneele without all respect of reuerence by institution of authoritie neither if some doe kneele without such respect and that by institution of authoritie be all churches to be charged and blamed for this fault but least of all the Church of England where this signe this solemne this most solmne signe with all possible respect of reuerence is giuen to God and that by institution of authoritie Where therefore this signe of reuerence is without all respect of reuerence giuen and that by institution of authoritie in so high a part of Gods seruice
things indifferent may Againe you haue lately giuen vs to note how kneeling of it selfe is not euill and so to be taken and counted but because it is vsed at certaine prayers which in your conceit are euill at least not iustifiable Therefore indifferent Lastly remember you not how you said of Kneeling that it is the most solemne signe of reuerence and a signe of the greatest submission Therefore not simply euill and to be condemned Nay when you say this of Kneeling why may not the King appoint the most solemne signe of reuerence the signe of the greatest submission or as you now say whether in earnest or sport I waigh not the most reuerend gesture for so is it and best beseeming so holy an action for the Lords Supper Schis For answere whereunto howsoeuer that which is alreadie said may suffice yet it may be further considered that though it be admitted that it is indifferent to Sitte or to Stand yet doth it not follow that Kneeling is indifferent Pro. Doe you but admitte Sitting and Standing to bee indifferent are they so but by way of Concession And though you grant Standing and Sitting to bee so yet doeth it not follow that Kneeling is of the same nature indifferent what reason haue you that it is not Schis For Sitting is the example and Standing is a gesture sometimes vsed in extraordinary eating and in the obiection it is said to be prescribed at a Sacramentall Feast Pro. Leaning and lying may shew vs how Christ ministred his Supper Sitting is none example For hee sat not if Beza if Vilerius if the vulgar Geneua annotation afore cited say true And if because standing in some Churches is prescribed at the sacramentall feast it is to be esteemed indifferent then is kneeling so to be deemed because the most and best reformed Churches appoint kneeling to be the seemliest gesture to be vsed at the sacrament What haue you more to say Schis Againe it doth not follow that because Christ vsed a gesture fitter for eating in his time in stead of a gesture prescribed vpon occasion it is therefore lawfull to vse a gesture nothing answerable to eating and that taken out of the synagogue of Antichrist as though the word of God came out of it or to it onely instead of a gesture most answerable to eating and purposely vsed by Christ at the institution of the Sacrament Pro. Will you not leaue charging of Christ with violating and breaking of Gods ordinance by vsing a gesture not fitter for eating in his time refusing a gesture prescribed vpon occasion in Gods eyes fittest for the Iewish Church Which thing though our Sauiour neither might nor would doe yet is it free for vs Christians and all Churches to vse such gestures at the Communion as are fittest for the daies and countries wherein and where wee liue England and many other Churches purged from the superstition of Poperie haue made choice of Kneeling a site though not answerable to our common eating neither is it necessarie it should be yet seemliest in our eies for our Eucharisticall Ecclesiasticall heauenlie and spirituall repast with Christ and his members Which Site or gesture though Antichrist abuse and Christ that wee read vsed not yet is it not therefore vnlawfull except it can bee shewne that either Christ did forbed it or commaund another or that Christians eithermay not at all or cannot vse that well which in the synagogue of Antichrist hath beene abused Schism So that notwithstanding all that is said for Kneeling his Maiestie vpon whom the burthen as of this gesture so of other ceremonies is laide may remember that Hezekiah appointed Leuites in the house of the Lord with Cymbals c. according to the commaundement of Dauid and Gad the Kinges Seer and Nathan the Prophet for the commandement was by the hand of the Lord and by the hand of his Prophets Pro. Whatsoeuer you haue said yet haue you not hitherto prooued the Kneeling in question to be vnlawfull and therefore cannot conclude the same to bee not indifferent nor to bee enioyned by our King As for his Maiestie like a worthie Hezekiah hee hath appointed Leuites in the houses of the Lord who doe performe their dueties together both at publique prayer hearing of Gods word ministring and communicating in the Sacraments according to the commaundement of blessed Elizabeth and the aduice of her Seers the Prelates and Clergie of the Realme and all correspondent vnto the reuealed will and Counsell of God Sch. Withal his highnes is to consider if kneeling were the most conuenient gesture best beseeming the holy comunion our Lord and Master would not haue Sitten downe of purpose at his last supper Pro. Your selfe haue acknowledged this Kneeling to be the most solemne signe of reuerence which what it doeth differ from the most reuerend gesture hee is sharpe sighted that can discerne and so best beseeming the holy Communion in our iudgement and country Howsoeuer our Lord and Master ministred this his Supper he ministred the same in most decent orderly and reuerend manner yet not binding vs to his example as knowing that is comely in one Country which is not so in another and meete for the time wherein hee liued and instituted the Sacrament which though lawfull is not so conuenient for after times and all places where his Church or part thereof should reside When Christ therefore in these things hath left vs free let no man bring vs into a new bondage Schis And let his Maiesty remember and consider that Ahaz was deceiued in deeming the Altar at Damascus more honourable for Gods seruice then the Altar of Lord. Pro. When you prooue that God hath appointed the site of Sitting to bee the onely gesture for the receiuing of the Communion in his Church as Altars were prescribed by God for his worshippe at Ierusalem and that the site of Kneeling at the said Communion is as vnlawfull as were the Altars at Ierusalem made after the fashion of the Altar at Damascus and lastly that wee in the Church of England commit Idolatrie by our Kneeling as did the Iewes vpon their new made Altars then let both King Iames bee taken for an Ahaz and his loyall and obedient Subiects for Idolaters in the space you are to bee taken for an egregious deprauer both of his sacred Maiestie and of the Church of God vnder his Empire and Gouernement SECT 11. Whether Kneeling at the Communion as much is to be abhorred as the worshipping of Images Schis I Haue said that which may be sufficient to a man reasonable and not contentious against the institution of Kneeling for supposed reuerence in regard of God Pro. You haue said a great deale more then enough to the same purpose but no whit for the satisfaction of any indifferent and reasonable man studious of the Churches quiet and desirous of the truth Schis It remaineth that somewhat be said against the institution of kneeling for reuerence in regard
of bread and wine which neede not be much Pro. Whatsoeuer you shall say it is but too much in a needelesse contention You haue beene told that wee Kneele not neither bee to Kneele in regard of bread and wine Schis Verily no sound Protestant of any knowledge will affirme it but rather presently consider that if kneeling be instituted for reuerence in regard of bread and wine it must be either because they represent the body and blood of Christ though remaining bread and wine touching their substance And then for like reason we may worship the crucifixe and image of God as the Papistes doe Pro. True Schis Or this reuerence is done to bread and wine because Christ is reallie bodily and locally though inuisiblie present in them either by transubstantiation according to the mind of the Papists or of consubstantiation according to the heresie of the Lutherans Pro. The Church of England and members of the same haue in equall detestation both of the Transubstantion of the Papists and the Consubstantiation of the Lutherans Schis Then it must needs follow that if wee abiure these heresies of Papists and Lutherans we must also abhor idolatrous and superstitious Kneeling their daughter and Nurse Pro. Wee abhorre idolatrous and superstitious kneeling from our hearts but not kneeling Our kneeling is neither superstitious nor idolatrous Schis We neuer heard of kneeling before transubstantiation was hatched in the sygnagoue of Antichrist so that immediatly after Pope Innocent decreed transubstantiation Pope Honorius decreed kneeling Therefore if Harding doth graunt that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodilie presence a sound Protestant should infer But I detest your reall presence Therefore Iabhorre your idolatrous kneeling Pro. We are to regard not so much who ordained kneeling at the first or when it was established and why as who commands it now and the vse thereof which we take to be verie good profitable and necessarie What though Harding doth say that wee doe not well to kneele but in regard of a reall and bodilie presence doe wee therefore ill which kneele hauing no such regard And though you tell vs a thousand times wee doe ill in kneeling because the Papists in kneeling doe adore the the bread and wine doe wee therefore ill which abhorre the Papists both doctrine and adoration Therefore whereas Harding doth grant that it is not well to kneele but in regard of a real and bodily presence and yee Schismatikes doe say and maintaine that wee doe ill to kneele not because wee doe but for that the Papists in regard of a certaine perswasion they haue of a bodily and real presence doe adore Bread and wine wee hold both them and you to bee much out of the way them for condemning our kneeling because it is not in adoration of bread and wine you for condemning our said Kneeling which is without all regard of such adoration SECT 12. Whether kneeling at the holy Communion bee a shew of euill and the greatest scandall Schis WE are to abhorre kneeling Pro. What all kneeling Schis I meane kneeling at the Lords Supper as in my proposition is expressed Pro. Why so For hitherto haue you giuen no sufficient and satisfying reason why wee should abhorre it Schis Because we abhorre the heresies of worshipping of Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation Pro. Though the heresies of worshipping Images Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation be detestable yet is not our Kneeling to be abhorred vnlesse you can proue vs guilty of those heresies or the like which we abhorre no men more Our gesture of Kneeling cannot be ill when our doctrine is good as the same gesture could not be good if our doctrine were vnsound and sauor of those heresies which you cannot truely say it doth You haue afore beene told that the gesture of it selfe is neither good nor euill but to bee esteemed according to the doctrine which they professe and hold that vse it a site as we vse it in the Church of England verie comely and commendable a gesture as Papists abuse it most horrable Schis Not in respect of those heresies onely but also because it is the shew of the greatest euils that euer were it is to be abhorred Pro. Those euils would be shewen Schis It carieth a shew first of Idolatrie in worshipping a God made of a piece of bread Pro. Artolatrie is the euill of the Romish Church there is neither that euill nor a shew thereof among vs who acknowledge no breaden God much lesse giue any shew of adoration vnto bread and wine The shew of such euils wee condemne euen as the euill it selfe wee abhorre You haue bin answered againe and againe that our adoration in Kneeling is to our God in heauen not to his creatures on earth nor to Christ in them or transubstantiated into them which because wee do not the Papists afore mentioned viz. Harding would not haue vs to Kneele because we adore not what they doe which did you conscionably remember would remoue this vncharitable suspition out of your head that our Kneeling carrieth a shew of Artolatrie grosse Idolatry This therefore is but an vniust surmize of yours What is the next euill euen the great euill that it beareth a shew of S. Euen our communion with Antichrist rather than with Christ. P. To communicate with Antichrist is not reuerently and religiously to kneele at the holy Communion but to communicate in the doctrine and superstitious worship professed and vsed in the Church of Rome Herein wee communicate not with the Papists nor they with vs. They say that our Protestants are Amalakites and Heretikes our doctrine heresie and that they which so cal it and that in the worst part that can be and in the worst sence that euer was doth rightly and iustly and that we are Paganis Turcis deteriores worser then Turkes and Pagans We said of them that their religion is rebellion their faith is faction their doctrine false and erronious their seruing of God superstitious and idolatrous all their doctrine and worship blasphemous and derogatorie in an high degree to the glory of God Hence haue they separated themselues from vs and our Churches by open recusancie and wee haue departed from them and their offices which they call Apostacie and vs Schismatickes for so doing These things were they duly considered as they ought seriously me thinkes it should be far from the thought of any man professing the same doctrine with vs and detesting the religion of the synagogue of Rome to imagine that we in kneeling doe communicate with that whorish Church who are not so seuered in doctrine and worship as for our worshipping of God and doctrine without all hope of atonement or reconciliation separated in body but in affections much more This notwithstanding were their doctrine and worship as good as the signes of their deuotion commendable whom we do communicate withall in a dumbe ceremony and in different if to
kneele at our chiefest prayers and praisings of God bee a communicating with the Church of Rome wee would also most willingly communicate withall in their worship and doctrine And we wish and pray that as we conuert some of their vsages to God his glory so they may be conuerted vnto the same doctrine and worship among vs that with our heart and forme aswell of doctrine and worship as ceremonies wee may glorifie God together in this world In the meane while wee shall and as much doe dislike your sitting who are like vs in the maine points of doctrine as we like of their kneeling in it one nature considered who are most vnlike vs in doctrine and the true worship of God For we hold it better to come neere the superstitious Papists who make showes of great deuotion at Kneeling than to prophane persons in sitting at the communion a signe of no deuotion or of very smal especially in these dayes wherein wee are to feare more the ouerflowing of Atheisme then th' encrease of superstitiō When wee haue no communion with Antichrist in Idolatrie and false doctrine why should you refuse to cōmunicate with vs Christians because of our kneeling S. It was the greatest scandal that euer was or can be P. Kneeling no not at the communion is not any scandall in our Church sitting is And if Kneeling bee it is a scandall taken not giuen but your sitting is a scandall both giuen and taken and therefore the greatest scandall whereas the other is none at all But seeing you haue sayd it show why kneeling is the greatest scandall that euer was or can be S. It is so in regard of those euils it doth occasionally teach or confirme P. If our doctrine as it doth not teacheth no such euils and heresies Kneeling of it selfe doth not so much as occasionably teach or confirme them But our doctrine is most pure and sound no Papist can shew no Schismatick will say no aduersary what-so-euer shall euer proue the contrary You are answered for this point haue you no other thing to say why our Kneeling is so scandalous yea the greatest scandall that euer was or can be S. Yes it is so also in regard of multitudes indeed the most part of the people either not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments and therefore carried with a blind zeale learned by tradition or corrupted more or lesse with the leauen of Popery P. We are sure and all the world will witnesse that Puritas doctrinae viget in Anglia true religion flourisheth in England the people at no time was euer so diligently and soundly taught both what to beleeue how to liue as they are at this day and for these many yeeres together haue beene in our Church If multitudes not-with-standing remaine yet blind and ignorant it is the fault either of their owne dulnesse that cannot or negligence that will not or sinnes that they shall not profit by the word The care of their gouernors hath beene great and singular that they might grow vp and increase in all godly knowledge and affections especially in the Sacrament Therefore if any or many either be not sufficiently instructed in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments or be corrupted more or lesse with the leauen of Popery what is all this to the church of England which both desireth and ordereth so farre as in her is that all may be instructed that sufficiently in the right vnderstanding and vse of the Sacraments and also both teacheth the doctrine of Christ very substantially and administreth the Sacraments most sincerely Lay not the faults and corruptions of the multitude vpon the Church of England and her lawes S. The vulgar people for a great part in regarde of their weakenesse are endangered by this gesture either groslie to commit the idolatry of Papists or to haue a superstitious estimation of the outward elements P. The vulgar people would neuer haue those thoughts did not either our aduersaries the Papists poison them with Popish conceits cleane contrary to the purport meaning of the church of England or you Schismatikes enforme them that we either commit Idolatry or make show that we so do by our Kneeling but all of you most falsly and slanderously The gesture as it is appointed doth endanger them no whit but it is partly the Papists suggestions that they must not Kneele vnlesse they doe adore the Sacrament which yet are the signes of the most ignorant among them and partly our schismaticall whisperings that the people do adore or make show of adoring bread and wine when they do Kneele that doth endanger the people and trouble vs all making the multitude for a great part eyther open Recusants because they may not adore or dangerous sectaries in that they will not Kneele which they thinke to be idolatrous adoration S. The rather encline the people to Popery because by the 21. Canon it is prouided that no bread and wine newly brought shall be vsed but first the words of Institution shall bee rehearsed when the said bread and wine be present vpon the Communion table As if the words were incantations and the table like an Altar which sanctifieth the sacrifice P. Kinde and naturall children will lesson and extenuate their mothers fault but neuer aggrauate her offences much lesse raise slanders of her when shee deserues none Yee are most vnkinde to your Mother the church of England which hath conceiued and tenderly fed you with the food of Gods word and refreshed you with the heauenly comforts of his Sacraments This our mother and the holy Sacrament will haue vs put in minde both who is the author of those holy mysteries and why they are instituted and all to raise vp in vs a more reuerend respect of those sacred signes when shee doth nothing but well and to our singular good shall we vnkindly turne her good directions and instructions into euill and say she is faultie when she deserueth praise shee would haue vs to approach vnto the holy Supper as to an heauenly banquet you belike would haue vs thether to repaire as vnto a common feast Is shee that inspireth vs with diuine thoughts or you rather which receiue or would haue vs to resort vnto the supper as vnto a common feast shee enioying the diuine words of institution you leauing them quite out as if we were but at a ciuill and homely dinner or supper faultie And what herein doth she contrary to Gods word or differing from the example of Christ who took bread and wine and before hee distributed them or his Disciples did eate gaue thanks and shewed what they signified and why instituted Tell what in the words of our booke is erronious What in the forme superstitious If you cannot be ashamed to tearme such diuine wordes Incantations which are holy instructions ministring necessary and diuine meditations vnto our selues and making the table yea our Altar and all there-vppon most
the example of Christ by our Kneeling and therefore in Kneeling do not sinne S. Setting vp of Images in Churches onely to be Laie mens bookes is by authority condemned because they are as stumbling blockes in the way of the blind So that they haue beene are still and will bee here-after worshipped by ignorant persons Is not Kneeling as scandalous How can it then be iustified P. Iustly haue Images those Lay-mens bookes by authority beene condemned I thinke you will affirme as much Gods word is directly against such Images Now could you make good your words that Kneeling is as scandalous now as Images sometime were in our Churches I would be of your minde that it is to bee condemned as Images were That Images the Images I meane that you speake of are such stumbling blocks I doe read both in the bookes of God and otherwise in most godly and approoued writers old and new but that kneeling at the Communion is as scandalous as Images and therefore to be condemned is doctrine proceeding newly from the braine of of you Schismaticks neuer afore heard of among the people of God SECTION 13. Whether the Kings commandement to Kneele maketh Kneeling to be no sinne S. IT is said that the Kings commandement taketh away scandall in things indifferent P. What say you herevnto S. It may be auerred that this is a begging of a questioÌ„ except it be proued by the word that Kneeling may bee without sinne that though it be an institution of man contrary to the example of Christ a signe of coÌ„munion rather with Antichrist his synagogue of Rome theÌ„ with Christ and his church it haue no proportion with Sacramentall eating and haue beene is and will be bread-worship P. That wee may kneele at the Communion with-out sinne and that the said Kneeling is neither a meere institution of man nor contrary to the example of Christ nor a signe of any Communion at all with Antichrist his synagogue nor hinders a whit the Sacramentall eating of Christ nor finally with vs euer hath beene is or I hope shall bee any Bread-worship hath sufficiently beene prooued by vndeniable and strong arguments And therefore go on prooue that it may not by the authority of the King be enioyned S. Suppose that in it self it were as indifferent as was eating of flesh sacrificed to an Idol not in the Idols temple but at a priuat table where no weake ones were in the Apostles time yet how doth the Kings coÌ„mandement take away scandall from Kneeling in publicke places doth it make all so sure that none can be scandalized or if that cannot be doth it take away guiltinesse from the scandalizer as if all the blame of scandalizing were in the Kings commandement Surely it must be in the former or else in the latter it cannot be P. Our Kneeling euen in the publicke churches is no scandalizing but accidentally as any good euen the best thing may bee And therefore neither doth the King offend in commanding nor wee offend in obeying and so is there neither scandall nor scandalizer nor any iustly scandalized by kneeling for neither doth Kneeling nor the Kneeler nor the King commanding to kneele deserue any blame You take things for granted which will not be confessed Here is no offence giueÌ„ in any respect at all S. By scandalizing a weake brother perrisheth Of whose blood the scandalizer is guiltie as Ioab was of Vriabs blood notwith-standing the Kings commandement P. What of this Insinuate you all Kneelers to be like bloody Ioabs our King commanding vs to Kneele to like Dauid when hee commanded that Vriah should bee murdered O vndutifull vngodly and inconsiderate imputations S. Here his Maiestie knowne to be of a gentle disposition and to haue learned yea professed better things in Scotland is most-humbly prayed to take the word King as spoken in imitation and vnder-stood of Cantor who knowne to be of a violent disposition did carry matters in the conuocation and published Canons not orderly and fully concluded as some of his Suffragane Prelates reported P. His Maiestie liued in Scotland a long-while and many years among Puritanes yet was neuer any Puritane him-selfe The most-reuerend Father whome you tearme in derision Cantor did neuer any thing about the publike affaires of the Church but vpon good aduise and lawfull consent nor published any Canons for the ordering of the Church but the soueraigne person of the kingdome euen his Maiestie him-selfe and that according to the Lawes and Statutes of the Realme and vnder his great Seale ratified them all These reproachfull words do but wound his Maiestie in the sides of his officers Go to your matter leaue theÌ„ if you haue any more to say S. It is impossible that the Kings commandement should make all so sure that none can bee scandalized the general ignorance of the people the dispotitioÌ„ of the ignorant vnto superstition the old leauen of Poperie not purged the multiplying of Papists all well considered P. All these thinges considered Kneeling at the communion vses according to th'ordinance of the Church of England and none otherwise is no Scandall giuen S. Nay rather it is likely that by the commandement the Scandall should bee the greater especially in regard of the 27. Canon where ministers are commanded vnder paine of suspension not wittingly to administer the Sacraments to any but to such as Kneele P. The Canon is necessary and to the preseruation of vnitie and the preuenting of hatefull confusions which otherwise too-offensiuely would spring spread ouer the kingdome Dangerous maladies must haue eating and biting medicines Gods ministers may thanke you Schismatikes for this seuere discipline They that wil not receiue Gods sacraments but as they list must by seuerity be driuen to take theÌ„ as they should It is a good rule in Phisicke stay the beginnings The Philosophers do say how Modâ—eus error in principio fit maximus in fine That error which at the last was greatest at the first was but a little one in Diuinitie we finde the same to bee most true For the foulest and most horrible heresies sprang but of petty Schismatikes at the first They must in time meete with cut of those Shismes that would not haue the Church pestered and molested with heretikes This very discourse of ours may put the world in minde what hideous horrible fancies this Recusancie of yours to Kneele leauing the vnion of the Church and Communion with vs in the sacraments because yee will not kneele hath already ingendred Your errors here-about are foule and monstrous and yet worser are behinde for the preuenting whereof we are on all sides from the King to the lowest and meanest subiect to set to our helping hands Neither be you nor any other men to thinke that punishment seuere which is rather necessarily for a publike good then willingly inflicted S. May not simple and superstitious persons take occasion thus to argue Why should Kneeling be
thus vrged by authority if the sacramental signing of the body and blood of Christ bee no more to be reuerenced then water applyed in Baptizing children seeing that is also a sanctified signe of Christ his blood that washeth away our sinnes and iniquity P. If they will by you be aduised the simple and superstitious shall so argue and thereby fall into a loathing of our manner of receiuing the sacrament But you and they must be answered how the church of England hath the two sacraments in equall price and estimation conceiuing highly and religiously of them both but ascribing diuine adoration yea none adoration at all either vnto the Bread wine of the one or vnto the water of the other albeit the water signifieth Christ his blood that washeth away our sins iniquity the bread wine the body and blood of Christ shed and giuen for mans redemption But for-so-much as we are baptized infants when wee know not what wee do and are men old or young when wee partake of the other also that the very Bread and VVine exhibited to these senses and handes of all communicants do sacramentally represent the body and bloud of our Lord the Ministers deliuerie of them Gods very offering his fauours in Christ vnto vs the bread broken his body dead the wine his bloud shed vpon the Crosse lastly the distributing both of the wine and bread Christ his benefits and Gods blessings imparted and communicated vnto all Communicants whereof they be remembred so oft as they receiue in all places of the world and to the worlds end what Christian seeing and seriously considering these and the like things but will bee excited with all due submission and religious reuerence to come vnto the participation and receiuing of such celestiall fauours Not because it is either vnlawfull or vndecent with like reuerence to receiue the other Sacrament but for that partly our tendernesse is such because of our yeares that wee cannot and partly the necessity is not so vrgent that wee need to Kneele But doubtlesse were wee of good yeares and did know what we go about when we are to be baptized as we know what we do such is my perswasion and ought to be of vs all of all persons communicating at the Supper when wee come to the table of the Lord doubtlesse the Lord would not be displeased did we Kneele at Baptisme then our assured perswasion is that hee is not offended with our Kneeling at his Supper Therefore whereas all worthy communicants euen in duty and conscience are bound with this signe of reuerence to receiue these holy and heauenly mysteries and yet many persons in one respect or other will not bend nor bow their Knees but in no case Kneele if authoritie doe force such stubborne and wilfull persons to doe that necessarily which of themselues voluntarily they should performe neither doth authoritie transgresse their bounds nor do they sinne that obay their command And so let this satisfie those simple and superstitious persons and be an answer vnto you THE CONCLVSION S. TO conclude if kneeling in the very act of taking eating and drinking the Sacramentall bread and wine in the holy Communion be an institution of man P. It is no meere institution of man S. If it be the taking of Gods name in vaine when it is without all respect of reuerence P. It is done with all respect of reuerence in the Church of England S. If God be not honored thereby except it be according to his will P. It is according to his will and so God thereby is honored S. If it swarue from the example of Christ his sitting and therefore deserueth no praise P. Though it swarue from the example yet is it against no commandement of Christ. And therefore not to bee condemned S. If it bee a prouoking sinne to reiect the exemplary sitting of Christ whereby wee show our selues to bee in the Communion with Christ and the reformed churches and to retaine Kneeling which for bread-worship ought to bee banished and whereby wee seeme to bee in communion with Antichrist and his synagogue P. Wee reiect not the exemplary sitting of Christ neither should we sit haue we by it the more fellowship with Christ and his Churches reformed whose fellowship which without sitting praised be God we doe enioy is in partaking of spirituall graces in obeying and doing his precepts and in professing of Christian religion iointly and with one heart and minde neither by our Kneeling haue we either the lesse with Christ his true churches or the more familiaritie and communion with Antichrist and his synagogue In which respect neither is Kneeling to be banished out of our churches because of the Papists bread-worship nor do the kneelers by kneeling commit a prouoking sinne yea any sinne at all S. If it obscureth that reioycing familiaritie in and with Christ which the Lords supper signifieth P. At the Lords supper Kneeling obscureth not but furthereth our familiaritie and ioy with Christ and Christians S. If the argument from Christ his example be made the stronger in that he sat of purpose P. Christ his purposely sitting whatsoeuer it was maketh not our purposely kneeling to be vnlawfull S. If the lawfulnesse of choosing a fitter time than the euening cannot iustifie our reiecting Christ his exemplary sitting P. By the same authority Gods people may leaue the example of Christ in sitting if hee did sit whereby they left his example of ministring the supper in the euening vnlesse by some order and decree he had enioyned his example for our necessary imitation S. If the bittes of prayer ioyned with the words of institution do make Kneeling the more sinfull P. Euery bit yea and euery crumme of that prayer vsed with sound faith and deuotion doth make our kneeling the more acceptable vnto God S. If kneeling bee not as indifferent as standing nor best beseeming the holy communion and the King must appoint nothing but by the hand of the Lord. P. It is as indifferent and more conuenient than standing and in our iudgment and perswasion best beseeming the communion and appointed euen by God himselfe by the hand of our Lord the King S. If wee ought to abhorre Kneeling as wee abhorre Images transubstantiation and consubstantiation P. Kneeling is a pure ceremonie of our Church voide of all superstition and Idolatry whatsoeuer and our kneelers the most sincere worshippers of God and neither themselues nor their Kneeling to be abhorred S. If to scandalize bee greeuouslie to sinne and kneeling be a showe of the greatest euils and withall the greatest scandall P. There is no scandall giuen by kneeling neither is kneeling euill nor show of euill much lesse of the greatest euils or the greatest scandall S. If it bee a begging of the question to affirme kneeling to be indifferent and the Kings commandement so called both rather encrease than lesson scandall by kneeling P. Kneeling hath not as yet beene showne to bee of it selfe vnlawfull