A DIALOGVE OR CONFERENCE BEtweene Irenaeus and Antimachus about the rites and Ceremonies of the Church of England By SAMVEL GARDINER Doctor of Diuinitie Psal 122. vers 6. O praye for the peace of Ierusalem they shall presper that loue thee AT LONDON Printed by Richard Braddock for Thomas Bushell and are to be sould at his house in the Petty Cannons 1605. TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE AND MOST REVEREND FATHER IN GOD RICHARD BY THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD LORD Archbishop of Canterburie Primate of all England and Metrapolitane ALBEIT the arke of Noah which is the Church of god be throughly pitched within without with the Doctrine of the trueth and good and wholesome discipline and therefore is safe enough against all the waues of wicked dooers and ouerflowings of vngodlinesse the Lorde of hoastes that is with vs and the God of Iacob that is our refuge sitting at the stearne and houlding it and pronouncing this blessing vpon it I will bee with you to the end of the worlde yet is it subiect to the rage of manie waters to sirtes sandes rockes Pyrates and to euill minded passengers that will rather hinder then helpe in a storme or daunger The last is not the least that this barke and pinnesse is to feare For as Epiphanius sayth Omnem inscensorem vehere potest nauis praeter fugitiuum this shippe may beare any passenger better then a fugitiue We diuide these into two flockes as Labans sheepe and goates were diuided into two companies whereof some were blacke other some party coloured Those of the blacke guarde are heretiques in doctrine those that are of sundrie colours and cannot agree among themselues what they woulde haue but builde with confusion of language with the builders of Babell Gen 11 Iudic 12 and with the Ephraimites cannot pronounce Shibboleth are those that in a singularitie of opinion make a defection whome Augustine noting with his inkehorne giueth them no milder name then Schismatiques August Schismaticus es sacrilega discessione haereticus sacrilego dogmate Thou art a schismatique saith he in thy sacrilegious separation and an heretique in thy sacrilegious doctrin August Augustine sampleth the first sorte to a lyon and the second to a Dragon saying Tunc leo fuit cùm apeitè saeuiebat modo draco cum occulte insidictur Then he is a Lyon when he openlie rageth and a Dragon when he priuilie lyeth in wayte Of this had woorthy Epiphanius respect when he suited euery singular heresie to a seuerall serpent A similitude that fell fitly into his purpose because no aspe viper or venemous creature scatter such filthy vomit against vs and fasten such venemous teethe vpon vs as schismatiques and heretiques With the insolent neighbourhood of these two as with the malignaunt aspecte of two vnluckie planets hath the Church beene miserably disquieted a long time The heretique like Iudas hath alwayes ledde a bande of souldiers after him and the schismatique hath neuer beene without his disciples and sectaries Of heretiques we haue had such swarmes at all times as if hell had emptied it selfe and cleane degorged her stomacke on the lappe of the Church the sun and the ayer that is the cleare sunne and light of the worde hath beene darkened by the smoake of the pit Reuel 9. The blame whereof is to bee giuen to the peruersenesse of mens minds that loue darkenesse rather then light and to grope with the Sodomites for a wall at noone daye who will bee blind with their eyes open and will not with Eli see the lampe of God burning in the Temple The number of these without number I shall not if I might goe about to compute and comprehende in this narrowe roome and compasse of an Epistle They most of them were occupied about the person of Christ casting their filthinesse against his holynesse either denying the eternall nature of the sonne of god or calling into question the trueth of his incarnation or else violating the vnitie of his person or else compounding and confounding the distinction of his natures In his diuinitie erred very rankelie these of auntienter tyme Noetus Praxeas Hermogenes Sabellius with whome wee consorte Berillus and Marcellus knowne by the title and name of Patripassiani or otherwise surnamed Vnionitae because they wold not acknowledge three persons but onely three voices in the mystery of the Trinitie Hereupon Arius Photinus Artemon affirmed that the sonne had a beginning and was not euerlasting Again Euomius and Aetius conceiued the sonne to bee vnlike his Father which stumbling blocke while Ebion Basilides Cerinthus Carpocrates Paulus Samosatenus are warie to auoyde they take a greate fall professing the Son of God to bee but a meere man Further Cerdon Martion Manicheus Valentinus imagined him to bee but a cypher fantasie or vaine imagination or to haue brought a body from heauen with him and as Apelles sayth compact and conglutinated of starres or a bodye without a soule as Apollonatius fantasyeth Which stinking dunghill of rotten heresies is stirred and digged vpp new by heretiques of this age especially that roguish opinion of Eutiches who giue to Christ a deified bodie Now the Nestorians treade as much awrie of the other side giuing two persons to our Sauioure Christ teaching that the worde is present with Christ by assistance Thus is Christs coate that was without seame miserablie mangled with their circuler questions Neyther hath the mysterie of iniquitie thus ceased but Sathan that cannot put off his nature by his emissaries and factiue instrumentes the Papistes the incendiaries of these dayes hath kindled hot coales of fire in the Church and hath powred such poyson into the bosome of it as it must be a greate deale of Triacle that must purge is But wee shoulde discharge our selues of that well enough if wee could be at amitie and vnitye with our selues and woulde fight with our ioynte forces againste Edom Babylon Ammon and Aram with Ioab and Abisai and not strike our selues with our owne quilles as the Baalites launced themselues with their owne kniues If our kingdome were as strong as the diuels diuision woulde soone vnioynte and dissolue it For if Sathan be diuided against Sathan how can his kingdome stand saith our Sauioure Christ But this is the carbuncle botch and byle of our ecclesiasticall bodie we dissolue the brotherhood between Iudah and Israell Zach 11.14 whereas frater is called quasi ferè alter we are brethren in euill diuided in Iacob and scattered in Israell Ecclesiae titulo armantur qui contra ecclesiam dimicant they are vnder the banner of the Church that fight against the Church It is Chrysostomes obseruation that there is ingendred in euery thing and proceedeth out of it that which in tyme if it be not looked too will consume the thing as out of wood commeth a worme out of a garmente a moathe out of a greene hearbe a canker by which the woodde is fretted the garmente is hindered the herbe perisheth This hath too liuelie
an application to the Church For in Adams house was a wicked Caine in the arke of Noah was an accursed Cham in the familie of Abraham was a flowting Ismaell vnder the roofe of reuerend Eli were two vngratious waggestringes his sonnes Ophni and Phineas in Dauids courte there was the rebell Absalon in the the schoole of Christ was the traitour Iudas in the companie of the Deacons was the crewe of the Nicolaitans How the setled state of our church hath beene disquieted with home-borne crosse biters male contentes and wranglers to whome it is good sporte and gamesome the distraction of the churche of Corynthe some calling themselues Cephistes 1. Cor 1. some Paulines othersome Apollonians styling themselues Brownistes Barowistes of the fraternitie of the familie of loue and taking manye such odde titles to themselues I woulde wee coulde forget as wee well remember If the same moulde that now couereth some of the authors and ring-leaders of these rowtes might haue ouerwhelmed their factions we woulde not haue so sharpened our pennes against them But because they are belluae multorum capitum beastes with many heades and they infect like a byle in a bodie like a sinke in a citye and they are sparkes that set the whole church on fire wee maye not forbeare them For they haue doone more hurte alreadie then anie can diuine and like they are to doo more if their argumentes be not in time aunswered with a surioynder taken from the magistrates scabbarde that may choke their liues and put them to a non plus For the open persecutor is not so nefarious as the preposterous zelous professor Of which I must tel what a holy father saith Venit persecutor non fregit crura Christi venit Donatus dirupit ecclesiam christi integrum corpus christi manet inter manus persecutorum The persecutor came and did not breake the legges of Christ but in came Donatus and broake the Church of Christ the body of Christ remayned whole betweene the handes of his persecutors The due regarde hereof dealeth with vs to praye incessauntlie for the peace of Ierusalem and to ensue it all we may with contention of sides intention of mindes inuentions of arguments wherein when we haue doone our vttermoste endeuoure we shall neuer doo enough For bee wee more watchfull then Argus we shall still find more to doe And here I may not let passe the desciplinarians of our dayes who in such nice differences between vs will not be tractable for whose sake onely I penned this treatise in a loue vnfayned towardes them as I desire to liue as reuerencing manye of their persons and honouring theyr religion tendring theyr zeale but wishing it were seasoned with more knowledge Heerein the Papistes and they are as Ionathans arrowes beyonde and short the marke I woulde we were all of vs middlings in the Kinges high waye without turning aside to anye of these bywayes of the left hand or the right These labours I present to your Graces good learning and liking to commend them to the presse or vtterly suppresse them as it pleaseth your Lordshippe For to whome shoulde I giue them rather then to the Father of our Church that stand no doubt most Fatherly affected towardes vs and maynteineth the diuinity that is heere handled I haue also twice tasted of the louing inclination of your nature and therefore these paines as the abilitye of the whole man are consecrated to your Grace The Almightye god giue you to see manye dayes in honour to the honour of his greate name and to the enlargement of the Churches tranquillity so many yeeres now blessed be his Maiesty continued among vs. Your Graces in all dutie SAMVEL GARDINER To the learned brethren of the Ministery discontented with the gouernement of the Church of England and to all of that side Grace and peace I Take god to witnesse whom I serue in my soule that in all singlenesse of mind in a tender regard of the peace of the Church and the welfare of you al I haue addressed my selfe to this treatise his great name in my deuotions being first inuocated that it would please him to sanctifie these studies and to giue me the tongue of the wise and the pen of the ready writer to put forth thinges in season to the strengthning of the weak to the encouragement of the forward to the instigation of the backward and the conuiction of the obstinate In the vnquestionable assurance whereof I speake now vnto you my certificate being the cheerfulnesse he hath giuen me all the while I was in hand with the following discourse and am so zealous in the cause the fire of his spirit the worke of all good motions kindling the coales of these meditations So that I take vp the saying of the Poet Est deus in nohis agitante calescimus illo Ouidius And though I speake but to your eare onelye or rather to the ayer yet my witnesses are in heauen with what affections I am trained to this treatise that will beare me record my scope is to shew you that the oddes betweene you and vs are not of that importance to deuide and sunder you from vs but that seeing graue and godly authority will not that we should come to you that you for order and godly authority sake would apply your selues to vs. That by our ioynt conformity we might all proceede in the common cause of Religion and leade the people in the right way of the knowledge of Christ crucified as the Israelites ledde Dauid to Hebron with a simple and perfect heart That thereby we might be built like Ierusalem that is a city that is at vnity with it selfe Ezech. 37. and as the Angles of the mercy seate that turnes face to face and not thus to be tyed back to back as Sampsons foxes that made nothing but spoile and waste where they went or to be as a disordered or confused army of such seuerall behauiour one part ioyning another deuiding companyes Some standing still other some running away Read with Iudgement without preiudice and let me haue but loue for loue again and I desire no more And so much I do deserue wherefore if thou beest wanting therin thou doest me more wrong the blame is only thine Reason would that none should be so wedded to his will but that he should change it when better reason mooueth Farewell A Dialogue or conference betweene Jrenaeus and Antimachus about the rites and Ceremonies of the Church of England IRENAEVS Well met my good friend Antimachus how doe you you looke somwhat sadly what is the matter Antimachus I am sad indeed because I may not vse the liberty of my conscience and because for conscience sake onely I am depriued of my liuing Irenaeus Indeed if it be so you haue cause to be sad But I maruaile it shoulde bee so in this Realme of England where the gospell is freely preached by publique authority and the preachers
these reuerend holy men of blessed memory golden mouthed Chrysostome goeth hand in hand in the behalfe of the Crosse speaking thus woorthily Chrysost in 16. mat Hom. 55. Quando te cruce signas magna tuam frontem arma siducia libertate animaÌ„ munias When thou signest thy selfe with the crosse arme thy forehead with cheerfulnesse and quiet thy minde Finally from them to descend to Basill a Reuerend Father of very good regarde Basilius cap. 27. de Sp. S. he alloweth it for a lawful and laudable custome the vse of the Crosse which was of good age and time in his time In a tractate entitled of the holy ghost excepting against such that would confront and beare downe old customes in that regarde that they had not warrant from the word and there numbring the many inconueniences that wold arise from thence he maketh this the formost hurtful consequence in the rank which sheweth his good mind and affection to the crosse Siconsuetudines quae scrip to proditae non sunt tanquaÌ„ haud multum habeÌ„tes momenti reiicimus imprudentes c. daÌ„â—â—bimus quae in Euangelio necessaria ad saluteÌ„ habentur â— vt signo crucis eos qui spem collocaruÌ„t in christo signemus quis scripto docuit If we shall cast vp such customes that the worde toucheth not as matters of no such quality and consequence we shal also indiscreetly condemn such things which are also accounted necessary to saluatioÌ„ in the gospell 1. for who hath charged vs by writing that we sign those that put their trust in christ with the signe of the cros Thus you see how the fathers are for vs so if you wil be ruled led by theÌ„ the coÌ„trouersy is ended we are good frieÌ„ds Antimachus But these Fathers flourished in the prime age of the church and as it were in the infancy and minoritie of the same We haue all the light they could giue vs but we haue seen more light since and therfore I couet to haue the cause perswaded by the later writers Haue you any store of them of your side Irenaeus Without wrong doone to the learning of any I dare auerre it that we haue as deepe men for learning iudgement as any you can name that this age hath brought foorth that are eyther patrones of the ceremonies of the Church of England and particularly of the ceremonie of the crosse or else allowers of them and approouers of the crosse acknowledging the libertye that the church hath as to cancell them so to keep them and leaue vs to this our lawfull liberty no way seeking to abridge vs of it Antimachus I would heare what they are Irenaeus Peter Martyr whome I reuerence as much as any other in his letter to Bishop Hooper and in three or fowre other letters that are extant as also in sundry other places of his woorthy works all which I haue giuen thee in this treatise as occasion did yeeld and therfore it shall be needlesse to repeate his wise sayings Bucer that mighty learned man as he easilye could digest the established ceremonies of the reformed church in England in the daies of that peerlesse prince and another Iosiah Edward the sixt so he thought specially well of the crosse according as it may be lawfully vsed and according as we vse it and these are his words Bucer Signum hoc noÌ„ tam quod est vsue in ecclesiis antiquissimi quam quod est admodum simâ—â—â—x praesentis admonitionis crucis Christi adhiberi nec indecens nec inutile existimo si adhibeatur modò purè intellectum religiose excipiatur nulla nec superstitione adiuncta nec elementi sernitute nec leuitate aut vulgari consuetudine I do hould it not vnseemly or vnprofitable that the signe of the crosse shold be vsed not so much because it is of that long time and continuance in the church as that it is of so good vse and tendeth to such good end as beeing most simple and of present admonition as putting vs in minde of the crosse of christ so it be rightlie vnderstoode and religiously entertained without any addition of superstition or seruitude of the element or leuity or common custome Iuell that was the Iulium Sydus and the Iewell of his time among vs though he distasteth the crowde of ceremonies which were without measure Iuel in Apolog. throwne vpon the church and were the surcharge thereof in Augustines tyme against which that holy Father did except yet he alloweth all the receiued ceremonies now at this present day in vse in the church of England I will acquainte you with his words Concerning the multitude of ceremonies of idle and vaine nature we knowe that Saint Augustine did much complaine of them in his time and therefore wee haue greatlie diminished the number of them because wee knowe that they were troublesome to good consciences and too burthensome to the church Yet we retaine and haue liking not onely of those ceremonies which we are sure were deliuered vs from the Apostles but some others too besides which we thought might be suffered without hurt to the church of God because we affected that all things in the congregation might according to the will of the Apostle bee doone with comlynesse and good order But all such things which wee perceiued to leane to superstition or to be of no vse or bald or toyish or against the sacred scriptures or else vnmeet for sober wise people whereof there is a confused chaos in the Romish sinagogue all these we haue vtterly renounced and cast off because we would not haue the worship of god confounded and combred with such follies Whom wold not the euen cariage of this so worthy fine a Bishop mooue For my part I will suspect ten thousand mens iudgements that are of your side before I shall yeeld to thinke amisse of that man Antimachus But you doe tell me but of those of this church of England that applaude and approoue your opinions but do any of the learned men beyond the seas runne with you in that mind Irenaeus That worthy man Theodore Beza though I finde him no great friend to the crosse yet hee misliketh not that such churches as retayne it should keepe their liberty therein these being his words in his answer to Frances Baldwin Bezae responsio ad F. Bald. Scio noÌ„nullos fâ—blat a crucis adoratione aliquem signt crucis vsum retinuisse vt antur igitur ipsi sicut par est sua libertate I know that many make some vse of the signe of the crosse taking away all superstition from it Let such as it is meet vse theyr liberty In the same place immediately before the same learned Father sayth Fuerit sane tempus quo fuit aliquis istius signaculi aduersiu christi crucifixt contemptores vsus sit etiam diu libenter à christianis vsurpatus pro externa verae religionis professione There was a time that