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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30189	An answer to two treatises of Mr. Iohn Can, the leader of the English Brownists in Amsterdam the former called, A necessitie of separation from the Church of England, proved by the Nonconformists principles : the other, A stay against straying : wherein in opposition to M. Iohn Robinson, he undertakes to prove the unlawfulnesse of hearing the ministers of the Church of England ... / by the late learned, laborious and faithfull servant of Jesus Christ, John Ball.	Ball, John, 1585-1640.; Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662.	1642 (1642)	Wing B558; ESTC R3127	281,779	264

maintained Fourthly In the true Church of Christ the true doctrine of Jesus Christ the Prophets and Apostles in matters fundamentall is kept but so as the living members may erre both in doctrine and manners and others in societie with them may erre grossely impenitently finally And thus the Church of England doth keepe the doctrine of w Chaloner Credo Sanct. 2 part subject The church in respect of its outward part as it enters the Creed is not onely an outward profession of a doctrine or discipline but a profession of the same under the notion of truth And that the Church in this sense is invisible Gregory de Valent. confes in his third Tom. upō Thomas disp 1 qu. 1. pag. 7. sect 16. and Bellarm in his third Book de Eccles ca. 15. Bilson Christ subject par 3. pag. 305. The visible Church consisting of good and bad elect reprobate hath no such promise but shee may erre only the chosen of christ which are the true members of his body properly called his Church they shall not erre unto perdition c. Christ the Prophets and Apostles intirely without addition or alteration though in the government and administration there be many things amisse though in the societie there be many who be not qualified as sheepe humble and meeke but fierce and cruell Fifthly No societie is the Church of Christ which retaineth not the true worship of God but in the true Church of God his pure worship may be stained with rites and ceremonies which might well be spared and are justly disliked Thus both Conformists and Nonconformists and all other sorts and sects of men And thus in the Church of England the true worship of God is for substance rightly maintained though the Nonconformists dislike and the Conformists groane under some ceremonies not abandoned The onely knot here to be unloosed againe is your slander against the Nonconformists in that you charge them to say that the Church of England doth not retaine the true worship of God And now I shall desire you calmely to consider how according to your principles you can untie a knot or two if they should be knit for you in this wise First He is no true Pastor of Jesus Christ who grossely perverteth the Scripture falsifieth Authors deceiveth with aequivocations condemneth the true worship of God as pernicious idolatrie and the x Jewell upon the first to the Thes chap. 1. v. 1. The Church of God is in God the Father and in the Lord Iesus Christ it is the company of the faithfull whom God hath gathered together in Christ by his Word and by the holy Ghost to honour him as he himselfe hath appointed This Church heareth the voyce of the Shepheard It will not follow a stranger but flyeth from him Of this Church Hieron in Mic. lib. 1. cap. 1. saith Ecclesia Christi in toto orbe Ecclesias possidens c. societies of Saints as idolatrous and Antichristian Assemblies and laboureth to draw Christians from the communion of Saints which ought to be kept and maintained Examine your writings in the feare of God and adde the proposition wanting Secondly He is no true Minister who derives his authoritie from them that are not able to give it But he that derives his authoritie from the people derives it from them that have no authoritie to give it You know the conclusion and where it will light Thirdly The true Church of God is the true flock of Christ the Kings Daughter quickened by the Spirit married unto Christ gentle meeke humble retaining the true worship of God without addition or alteration and keeping the unitie of the Spirit in the bond of peace But the societie of Separatists is not the true flocke of Christ quickned by the Spirit humble meeke gentle keeping the unitie of the Spirit in the bond of peace These properties doe not agree to all and every one in that societie in truth according as in the former propositions you say they belong to the true Church of God If you shall be able to maintaine the former propositions against men as you vaunt I doe not beleeve you shall be able to unloose these few knots CHAP. V. SECT I. IT may be some will expect that I should write something of their Lecturers Can. Neces of Separat pag. 49 50. and the rather because they in the judgement of many are thought to be the best Ministers Of their life and doctrine I say nothing But as for their Ministery surely it is new and strange For the Originall of their name manner of entrance and Administration is unknowne wholly to the Scriptures and I thinke never before heard of till in these latter broken and confused times Therefore it is no marvell when the Question hath beene propounded to some of them as it was by the Pharisees to John Who art thou That they have not been able for their life to answer to answer the point Neither could agree among themselves what kinde of Ministery it is that they have taken up And being hard pressed for resolution they have ingenuously confessed that unlesse they be Evangelists they could not see how their Ministery doth accord with any Ministery mentioned in the New Testament This I write upon my owne certain knowledge the persons I thinke are yet living whose names for some reason I forbeare to expresse Howbeit I can and will doe it if I see there be a just and necessary occasion I doe not thinke it strange that they should thus speake for indeed I know not what they can say better in defence of their standing Pastours I am sure they will not say they are For First They doe not take any particular charge of a flocke upon them Secondly They performe not the office thereof for they agree with the people onely to preach and not to administer either the seales or censures to them Thirdly Their comming unto the people is in a strange sort for they make a covenant each with other for some certaine yeares and when that time is out both parties are free and so may leave one the other and doe many times but a true Pastour may not doe so For if he should he were worse than an hireling which leaves not the sheepe till he see the Wolfe comming But many of these when they see a richer Lectureship comming towards them Fourthly He that is a Parson or Vicar is taken generally for the Minister of the place And truely howsoever their calling be false and Anttchristian as the Nonconformists say yet in many respects they doe better resemble a true Minister than any Lecturer whatsoever Therefore not without just cause Neces of Discipl pag. 74. doe the Reformists utterly condemne this extraordinary office of Preachers And affirme that they are neither Pastours nor Teachers which the Scripture alloweth of ANSVVER THis point concerning Lecturers I have purposely deferred unto this place because it is distinct from the former in your apprehension

in l. 9. cp 9. Aug. epi. 118 119 See Caranz sum Concil fol. 43. Iustin Martyr Tortullian Clomens Romanus Eactantius and others vvere of opinion that no particular judgement passed upon the Saints untill the laft day Sixt. Sen. Biblioth l. 6. an 345. The Pastors of this age spake more unwarily of justification and grace than was meet prayer for the dead was ordinarie the foundation of prayer unto Saints was laid and defended by the teachers themselves with overgreat zeale in the superstitious vigils and frequenting the Sepulchers of Martyrs The former prophanation of the Sacraments by superstitious rites much increased some whereof are abolished by the papists themselves Libertie is taken from the Ministers the Bishops contend among themselves with ambition hatred affecting high titles and precedencie more than the good of Gods Church the pleasure of peace and securitie tooke away all care of godlinesse Now they seeke the reliques of Saints goe on pilgrimage to Ierusalem consecrate Temples to Martyrs esteeme it more religion to build certaine places and to pray in them than in others and to live by prescriptions and will-worship of Monkes c. than to walke according to the rule of Gods Word Now they give themselves to corrupt religion with idle and impure rites Images that were not mentioned in the first and second ages of the Church in the fourth fifth and sixt age were brought into the Church in some parts painted upon the walles retained for Historicall and Rhetoricall use to informe the understanding and stirre up devotion and of some began to be worshiped which Gregory himselfe disliked Monkes kept the communion at home and wanting a priest communicate themselves No publike assemblies could be found in which the ordinances of God did flourish intirely Augustine complained of the multitude of rites and ceremonies which were in his time wherewith the Church was grievously burdened but in the ages following was much more intolerable Of the particular slips and errours of the ancients it is needlesse to say more Here I would demand was this Church all this while thus corrupted the true church of Christ or a fals was the true worship of God performed in these assemblies the true worship or was it pernicious Idolatry If a true Church then a societie T. C. repl 1. pag. 73 wherein corruption of Doctrine and of the Sacraments hurtfull Ceremonies dominion and pomp of the clergie new orders and functions of the Ministerie is to be found may be the true Church of God And what then can you object against the Church of England to prove it a false Church If a false Church Fulk ansvver to the Rhem. in Eph 4.13 all the true Bishops of the primitive Church for six hundred yeares and more after Christ in all necessary points of doctrine agree vvith us and therefore vvere ancestors of our Church In the later times also for every age vvee can name divers pastours and teachers even in the most darke times c. Calfeh against Mar. preface to the reader Greg. epist. l. 7 indict 2 c. 109. Concil Nicen. a but that Councel vvas not generally received Sigth in an 755. Reger Howden continuat Beda anno 792. Feild of the chuteh l. 3 cap. 8. See Calfehil against Mart. art 3. p. 58 69 c. Bilson Christian subject part 4 page 316 317. This vvas about the yeare of our Lord 1160. See Vsser de suceess Eccles History of the Waldenses Daltha Lydia hist Chaloner credo Eccles part 2 sect 2. then either the faithfull were bound to avoide all societie and fellowship with it in the ordinances which a sober minded man will not affirme or all communicating with a false Church in the ordinances of God is not pernicious idolatry The faithfull which lay hid in this corrupted state of the Church and did partake in the ordinances of worship were never held and reputed Idolaters In the ages following the mystery of iniquitie did grow amaine for the worship of Images first began and after was concluded the Pope obtained to bee called head of the universall Church Saints were invocated as Mediators the Communion was mangled and delivered in one kind the merit and dignitie of workes advanced to the prejudice of Gods grace the doctrine of reall presence and orall eating of Christs flesh in the Sacramant by good and bad and the adoration of the Eucharist was taught and received These grosse corruptions prevailed for a time in the Church before they were concluded upon in Synods or Councels opposed by some condemned by others and manfully withstood especially the worshipping of Images During which time the faithfull who condemned these abominations did lie hid in the Church keeping themselves undefiled from these errours but separated not themselves from the ordinances of grace nor gathered themselves into a distinct body After these abominations were concluded the first that separated themselves were the Waldenses Albigenses or poore men of Lyons who withdrew themselves from the societie of the Romane Synagogue and worshiped God in distinct companies according to his will These are reported to be men of sound life and god linesse by the testimonie of very enemies themselves notwithstanding they were most shamefully traduced and grievously persecuted for Christs sake But after this separation made by them If sheepe in a pasture vvhere venemous hearbs are mixed with vvholsome can by the instinct of nature make choise of that vvhich is proper for them and abstaine from the contrary vvhat marvaile is it if the flocke of Christ vvho know the voice of the true Shepheard from the voice of strangers should by the guidance of Gods assisting spirit doe the same Chaloncredo Cameron dc Eccles ca. de schism See Field of the church l. 3 〈◊〉 6 8. Carleton descript ca. 1 p. 8. divers other godly men did patiently endure the tyranny of Antichrist and groaned under that heavie yoake bewailing the misery and reproving the sinnes of the time sought to reclaime others and labour to keepe their owne selves free but did not actually separate from the societie And this as the learned judge was done if not by Gods commandement at least by gracious indulgence Vntill the time of the Trent Councell saith one the Church although oppugned with errours and deceits of divers kinds oppressed with tyranny did not patiently endure the tyranny of the Pope and the impudency of the Fraterculi And though oftentimes before they had thought of separation yet they could never effect it untill that was fulfilled which the Scripture had foretold It is here to be further noted that neither the Waldenses who first separated nor the reformed Churches which in after times cast off the yoke of Antichrist and abolished his Idolatry did make such a pure and perfect reformation in all things as was to be desired And therefore if they be measured by your meat-wand they must all lye under the censure of false and idolatrous Churches who worship God with a false

right Religion Else the Heretiques in England would never have received so much of it For some have avouched it to my face saith the Author of the Curtaine of Church-power that the service there is nothing to the Masse in the English others that it wants nothing but the Popes consecration These things thus retrived it was also thought that popish Kings and Princes would be the lesse offended what marvaile seeing the Jesuites themselves are so well pleased with the ceremonies and service that I heard one of them God is my witnesse herein make it his hope that the maintenance of them against the Puritans would make England the sooner returne to Rome in the rest Qu●vadis sec 4. Mine eyes and eares saith Bishop Hall can witnesse with what approofe and applause divers of the catholique royall as they are termed entertained the new translated Liturgies of our Church Which is the lesse wonder seeing Pope Pius the fourth sending Vicentio Parpatia Cambd. An. 1560. Abbot of Saint Saviours to Queene Elizabeth offered to confirme the English Liturgie by his Authoritie if shee would yeeld to him in some other things Indeed it pleased them so well Fresh suit l. 1 203. that for the first eleven yeares of Queene Elizabeth Papists came to the English Church and service as the Lord Cooke sheweth L. Cooke de jure Regis Eccles f. 34. Syons plea. 49.91 Others of them affirme the same namely their Church-service pleaseth marveilous well the Romish Beast and his ungodly followers Witnesse the Pacification of the Devonshire-Papists in the time of King Edward the sixth when as they understood it was no other but the very Masse-booke put into English Witnesse also the assertion of Dr Carrier a dangerous seducing Papist The common-prayer-booke saith he and the Catechisme conteined in it hold no point of doctrine expresly contrary to Antiquitie that is Consider pag. 45. sect 8 9. as he explaineth himselfe the Romish-service onely hath not enough in it And for the doctrine of predestination Sacraments grace free-will and sin c. The new Catechismes and Sermons of the Puritan-preachers run wholly against the common-prayer and Catechisme therein conteined c. Motiv Preface to the Answ And thereupon he comforteth himselfe upon the hope of the supply of the rest To this effect speaketh Bristow and Harding If these things be right why not the rest It shall not be amisse to marke one occurrence in Queene Elizabeths time who being interdicted by the Popes Bull Secretary Walsingham tryed a tricke of State-policy to reverse the same He caused two of the Popes Intelligencers at the Popes appointment to be brought as it were in secret into England to whom he appointed a guide being a State Intelligencer who should shew them in Canterbury and London service solemnly sung and said with all their pomp and procession Which order the popish Intelligencers seeing and so much admiring they wondred that their Master would be so unadvised as to interdict a Prince or State whose service and ceremonies so symbolized with his owne So returning it the Pope they shewed him his oversight affirming that they saw no service ceremonies or Church-order's in England but they might have very well beene performed in Rome whereupon the Bull was presently called in That which you alledge against the English-Service-booke in particular Answer you intend against all set-formes of prayer or stinted Liturgies whatsoever For the use of them is a false devised idolatrous antichristian worship in your account Thus you know your Brethren of the Separation have disallowed all set and stinted formes Johnson Ainsworth Robinson Greenewood c. as humane inventions forbidden in the second Commandement Images Will-worship Idol-prayers False-worship Lip-labour c. And you your selfe insist upon this principle of the Nonconformists as the cause of Separation from the Church of England that all formes of worship not prescribed of God are will-worship which if it maketh against one holdeth against all prescribed Liturgies Can. Neces of Separat pag. 114. Id. pag. 115. Againe you confesse that every Church is not to be forsaken or left which hath something in it by participation idolatrous And therefore our Service is not devised worship because it is taken out of the Masse-booke as you alledge but simply because it is devised whencesoever it had its originall if it be devised worship First therefore we must consider the matter in generall Oyls●hil speaking of Images brought into the Church saith Wee might justly condemn the whole faithlesse fond invention For it was but a will-worship a naughtie service having no ground of the Word of God and onely spring of errour Calf Preface to the Reader testifieth Bilson Christ subject part 2. p. 297. That Princes may prescribe what faith they list what service of God they please what forme of administration of the Sacraments they thinke best is no part of our thought or point of our doctrine yet that Princes may by their lawes prescribe the right faith to bee preached the right service of God in spirit and truth to be used c. T. C. repl 1. pag. 8. Park of the Crosse par 1. ca. 4. sect 7. pag. 177. A. W. ans to late popish Artic. p. 73. and then try what is alledged against our booke of Common-prayer These words Formes of worship may be taken two wayes First to note the substantiall parts or meanes of worship and in this sense it is most true That all formes of worship not prescribed of God are unlawfull and false worship because devised by men Secondly To note a bare order methode or phrase wherein divine Service is performed And in this sense the Nonconformists never said That all formes of worship not prescribed are false or devised worship For they know that no forme is determined and prescribed of God precisely in all parts of his worship and where none is set apart by his Majestie it is a breach of his Commandement and devised worship to place an opinion of worship in the simple order or phrase of speech used in prayer or administration of holy things The Nonconformists condemne not a Liturgie or stinted forme of prayer but desire that all things therein might be ordered as doth tend most to edification Whatsoever exceptions they have taken against our Booke of Common-prayer they never disliked the use of it so far as they judged it sound and good They doe not condemne it wholly but finde fault with it as in some points disagreeing with the word of God What hath beene their seeking from time to time a razing of the Communion Booke No but a purging and filing of it after the patterne of that care which former examples set us The Booke of Common-prayer they condemne not as a wicked and ungodly Booke much lesse the Service as false devised and idolatrous but they have and doe use the booke and professe their readinesse so to doe onely they desire to