Selected quad for the lemma: england_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
england_n	catholic_a	diocese_n	ordinary_n	92	3	16.4665	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19164	The attestation of the most excellent, and most illustrious lord, Don Carlos Coloma, embassadour extraordinary for Spayne. Of the declaration made vnto him, by the lay Catholikes of England concerning the authority challenged ouer them, by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon. With The answere of a Catholike lay gentleman, to the iudgment of a deuine, vpon the letter of the lay Catholikes, to the sayd Lord Bishop of Chalcedon.	Coloma, Carlos, 1573-1637.; Baltimore, George Calvert, Baron, 1580?-1632. Answere of a Catholike lay gentleman to the judgement of a devine. aut	1631 (1631)	STC 5576; ESTC S117323	60,660	174

Your Lordships letter consisteth of foure points whereof we conceiue the second principally to concerne vs which is of your Authority as Ordinary deliuered by you vnto vs in these words As for the Authority wherewith I demaunded it that is as great as any Ordinary hath or can haue to demand the same of Regulars or Diocesse 2. And makes me a Iudge in prima instantia 3. And therby makes me as true absolute an Ordinary in Englād as other Ordinaries are in their Diocesse 4. By my Briefe it is cleere that I am delegated by his Holines to an vniuersality of causes belōging to Ordinaries 5. And haue been styled by the Cardinals de propaganda side Ordinarius Angliae Scotiae These passages with the whole scope of the second part of your Lordships letter argue your Lordship to assume your Authority ouer the Lay Catholiques to be as great in England and Scotland as any Ordinaries exercised heere in Catholique tymes and now is exercised in Cath. Countreys The extent of this assumed Authority concerning the Laity we shall humbly craue leaue to lay open to your Lordship First an Ordinary hath power of questioning proouing of Wills Secōdly of granting administratiōs Thirdly of deciding of Controuersies of Tythes Fourthly of Cōtracts Mariages Diuorces Alimony Bastardy And fifthly of slaunders with many others in all which causes examinations are to be taken vpon oath and sentences and censures will follow Now cōtrouersies of this nature haue mixture with temporall Authority concerning our temporall Fortunes and haue beene by our temporall Lawes Statutes so assisted altered and directed both in the tyme of our Cath. and Protestant Princes as hath seemed conuenient to the Church and state of these Kingdomes from tyme to tyme. All which are so already setled as innouation is most dangerous as being contrary both to diuers ancient and moderne lawes Now since the erecting of a tribunal about the administring course of iustice eyther distinct and much more if it be cōtrary to our lawes is an offence of high Treason that all they who submit and conforme themselues thereunto may be drawne within the cōpasse therof or of misprision of Treason or Premunire at least if they haue any litle priuity or participation thereof Besides that the execution of the Authority of this new Tribunall in so many cases as will dayly arise alloweth no possibility of secresy and wil prouoke the present gouernment to an exact search after it and suppression thereof It may therefore easily appeare to your Lordship how dāgerous it is for the Layty to submit conforme it selfe thereunto and vnsafe euen to haue been so long silent to your Lordship by whome it hath beene so claymed published Moreouer the inconueniences must be great which were to follow out of the contrariety of such sentences as would often happen between your Lordships Courtes and the Courtes of this Kingdome These dāgers are so knowne by vs haue been so maturely considered that they admit no further question thereof And if they had been so vnderstood abroad togeather with the consideration of our long sufferings and present estate of miseryes we presume no such Authority would haue beene imposed vpon vs. Neyther can we be perswaded that there is a necessity of conforming our selues thereunto as to a matter of Fayth or yet we can be obliged to loose our estates and ruine our posterities where the necessity of faith doth not oblige vs. We also most humbly beseech your Lordship to beleeue that this which we heer do represent vnto you is the sense of the Laity and we desire that it may be made knowne both heere abroad frō which we cannot recede for the reasons formerly expressed To the rest of your Lordships Letter not so directly concerning the general estate of the Lay Cath. s but rather the Regulars we humbly beseech your Lord. P that we may not be called into more interest preiudice therby thē we were in the time of your Lordships Predecessour and that these differences may be carried with such charity sweetnes candour and without noyse as may aduance that vnion wherin your Lordships desires and ours are to meete for the greater good of our Countrey And thus we must humbly take our leaues of your Lordship Your Lordships most obseruant The Lay Cath. of England A LIKE DECLARATION MADE BY the said Lay Catholikes of England to the most Excellent and most Illustrious Lord the L. Marques de Fōtany Embassadour to his most Christian Maiesty and other Ordinary Embassadors of Catholike Princes in England CONCERNING The said Authority of Ordinary pretended by the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon HAuing vnderstood these days past by the testimony of sundry witnesses of credit that a grieuous slaunder is layd vpō vs the lay Catholicks of England both at home and beyond sea as if we did not respect and reuerence Episcopall Authority and Iurisdiction as it behoueth good Catholicks this vpon no other groūd as we are well assured then that we refused to acknowledge the pretended authority iurisdiction of my Lord of Chalcedon ouer vs we thought it a part of our duety both to God and our selues to declare as well how deeply we resent the slaunder as what is our iudgement concerning the questions now in cōtrouersy betweene vs and my Lord of Chalcedon which feeling and iudgement of ours we summarily represented before to the most Excellent Lord Marques de Fontany Ordinary Embassadour for the most Christian King in this Court and now very lately also we opened the same more at large to the most Excellent Lord Don Carlos Coloma extraordinary Embassadour for the Catholick King in the same Court who hauing before hastened his departure out of this kingdome being now hourely to depart we were forced to dispatch this matter in his presence without delay And now we desire to aduertise the courteous reader that we haue thoght good to make the same Declaration fully and distinctly to the sayd most Excellent Lord Marques de Fontany Embassadour Ordinary for the most Christian King to the other Embassadours and Agents of Catholique Princes residēt in this Court Wherupon some of highest Ranke in the name of many others deliuered to the sayd Embassadours and Agents a Copy both of the Letter aboue printed in the which we answered my Lord of Chalcedōs Letter vnto vs and of a certaine wryting also heere printed which about some two yeares past many of prime Nobility had presented to the most Excellent Lord de Chasteau-neuf then Extraordinary Embassadour for the most Christian King in this court professing themselues Authors thereof To the end that by these meanes it may be made knowne as well to the Embassadours themselues as by them to the whole world how great a wrong we conceaue to haue bin done to our Christian reputatiō by the spreading of these false reports And also what our opinion and iudgement now at this present is

Bishop they saw it was a needles thing to mention it being a knowne point of Christian duty not to heare any man ill spoken of much lesse a Bishop if they should chāce to meete with any such discourse which they neuer do they and their friends abhorring such way of proceeding The second proofe of passion is because the Bishop offering further satisfaction concerning his Authority to any man that would aske it these Gentlemen did not aske it It is true indeed hauing seene my Lord Bishops publique clayme of that Authority it was no tyme for thē to go and aske a priuate glosse or Declaration which would little auaile them when such a Letter should be brought against them But let this Deuine aske my L. Bishop Whether he were neuer desired to make it knowne what Authority he had I am sure his Lordship wil not deny but he was many tymes but he neuer would til he declared it in this publique manner If my Lord then meant to giue them sufficient satisfactiō in priuate why did he not do it in priuate while mē did desire it and while there was tyme Besides suppose my Lord would haue written a Letter he might haue forborne to speake so plainly of his Ordinaryship only inuiting those that desired to know his Authority to come priuatly vnto him And for that which this Deuine saith that my Lord could not informe them sufficiently of his Authority in so short a Letter I se not what reason there is for it I dare say his Letter is 5. tymes at least as long as his Patents or Breue and Instructions the sight whereof would haue serued the turne without all this writing doing Which being so easy a matter th●t yet his Lordship would not do it they might well despaire of further satisfaction The third proofe of passion is that as this Deuine saith this Letter stretcheth my Lord Bishops words vpon the Tenter-hookes or rather addeth vnto them in saying that the particuler passages cyted and the whole scope of the second part of the Letter argue his Lordship to assume his Authority ouer the lay Catholiques to be as great in England and Scotland as any Ordinary exercised here in England in Catholique tymes Whereas my Lord Bishop neuer spake of Authority ouer lay Catholiques in Scotlād but only to proue himselfe Ordinary brought the Inscription of Letters from some Cardinals thus Ordinario Angliae Scotiae In which the Deuine complaineth of two Additions the one that the Letter sayth my Lord challengeth Authority ouer the laity of Scotland the other that it sayth my Lord challengeth as much Authority here in England as Ordinaries haue had in Catholyke tymes But first the Letter neither stretcheth nor addeth to my Lords words but only maketh a manifest and immediate inference vpon or out of thē For it saith his Lordship words argue him to assume c. Which plainely shewes that they do not charge his Lordship with saying so in expresse termes but saying that out of which as antecedent the cōclusion is manifestly gathered Now there is great difference betweene an inference and an Addition as euery body knoweth Secondly if the Deuine would haue answered and not cauelled he should haue shewed the Conclusiō not to be wel truly deduced out of his Lordships antecedent then he had sayd somewhat to the purpose But that he cannot do For if my L. Bishop out of the Inscription Ordinario Angliae do proue himself Ordinary out of this inferre himselfe to haue authority ouer Lay Catholiks of Englād why may he not do the lyke of the words Ordinario Scotiae which Title his Lordship vseth continually and ioyntly with the word Angliae thus Ordinarius Angliae Scotiae Thirdly his Lordships patēts make no difference betweene the faithfull of England and Scotland Wherfore if he challenge authority ouer the one he may do it ouer the other For the other Addition as this Deuine sayth or Inference as in truth it is of assuming the same Authority which Ordinaries haue exercised heere in Catholique tymes what can the Deuine say to it Is it not truly and euidently inferred My Lord Bishop sayth the Pope maketh him as absolute Ordinary in England as other Ordinaries in their Diocesses and this Deuine acknowledgeth him to haue as much as any Ordinary hath or can haue in his Diocesse But our Ordinaryes heere in Catholicke tymes were no more but as other Ordinaries in their Diocesses nor had more then any Ordinary hath or may haue in his Diocesse Ergo my Lord Bishop supposing these his Lordships premises hath the same Authority that Catholique Ordinaries haue had heere in England in Catholique tymes Or by the challenging that Authority of other Ordinaries or what they haue or may haue he challengeth the same that Ordinaries haue had in Catholike tymes What fault is there in this Argument Why then doth this Deuine●ryfle ●ryfle thus As if these two were not all one The Authority which an Ordinary hath or may haue in his Diocesse and which an Ordinary had in tymes past heere in England Had our Bishops more heere then an Ordinary may haue elswhere Did he perhaps thinke that no man would euer vouchsafe to answere or perhaps read this paper Where is now the passion in stretching and adding of words But because it may moreouer appeare that this inference of the Authority which Ordinaries had heretofore did not proceed from passion I will ad a reason why mention was made of our Ordinaries of former tymes in England which is this That they who wrote the Letter came better to be acquaynted with what belongs to the Authority of Ordinary and how farre it extendeth it selfe by that which Ordinaryes were wont to do heere in England and which for the most part they do still in the same Courts heere established then what Ordinaries do abroad which we heere are not so well acquainted withall And from hence commeth the answere to another obiected Addition in that this Letter saith that such cōtrouersies as were spoken of immediatly before in the Letter haue mixture with temporall Authority and concerne temporall fortunes and receiue also temper from our temporall lawes c. This the Deuine according to his former māner of speach calleth an Addition to his Lordships words who he sayth sayd nothing of temporall fortunes nor Authority of temporal Princes As for the word Addition it suteth yet farre lesse in this place then before True it is the Bishop did not speake of temporall fortunes and lawes but he spake of that which hath necessary connexion with them which is his Ordinaryship Which connexion though the Bishop perhaps did not so seriously reflect vpon as a thing that might hinder the extēt of his power yet Lay-men whome it concerned could not but looke about them to see themselues hooked in vpon a suddayne by Tytle of an Ordinary which bringeth after it all this that is mentioned in the Lay mens Letter

we aymed at by adioyning this Declaration In the meane tyme seeing for diuers respects we haue not the freedom to present our selues in person hūbly to lay downe our owne Cause before his Holines we beseech those Catholiks who are lyke to fynd freer accesse vnto him and who shall light vpon these wrytings to be intercessours for vs vnto his Holines that he will vouchsafe to expresse his mind and giue sentence of this controuersy which we now haue with the Right Reuerend Lord Bishop of Chalcedon to the end all occasions of further scandall dissention may be entierly cut off quyte remoued as we hope they will if his Holynes will be pleased to giue it in such a manner as his resolution may be publickely diuulged and openly made knowne to all For if it be only expressed in priuate ech party may eyther affirme or deny what they thinke good so that the strife begun will rather take increase by that meanes then be any whit extinguished as experience hath cleerly taught vs hitherto Moreouer we most earnestly crau● that in our behalfe they will humbly beseech his Holines not to resolue of any thing in this busines wherby our King● most Excellent Maiestyes indignation may be prouoked against vs or we brought yet further into his displeasure Lastly we intreat them not to censure or condemne these our proceedings with disparagment to our honour esteeme seeing we haue alwaies yet byn ready as the whole world may witnesse to lay downe with all humility our very liues fortunes whensoeuer a iust cause for the defence of our faith shall require it REASONS GIVEN to Monsieur de Chasteau-neuf Embassadour Extraordinary of the most Christian King to shew that the Authority of a Catholike Ordinary heere in England is incompatible with this tyme place FIrst we professe in the sight of God that from our harts we reuerence Episcopal Authority as knowing it to be Gods institution and that we vnfaynedly wish the times were such as we might submit our selues therūto whatsoeuer hath byn sayd of vs to the contrary is very slanderous In the next place we do with al reuerence and humility declare that according to the lawes and state of this Kingdome as now they are we conceaue that the authority and iurisdiction of an Ordinary is not only inconuenient and vnusefull but impossible to be executed so dangerous to be obeyed nay euen acknowledged as that we cannot be obliged thereunto And we do verily belieue that vpon many and weighty reasons whatsoeuer hath byn affirmed to the contrary that his Holynes hath had no intention to oblige vs vnto it nor will after information how things stand heere There are heere many Statutes of the Kingdome in force which make it highly penall in some cases with losse of goods liberty and in others of life to acknowledge any other Authority or Iudicature then such as by the same statuts are authorized which though we are obliged not to regard when there is question of any doctrine of fayth yet when a man shall run hazard of vtter ruine for admitting and acknowledging of externall iurisdiction and authority which importeth not faith but practise of things not necessary but according to tyme and place we conceaue that we cannot be obliged to imbrace it If it be sayd that it is Capitall for a man to receaue a Catholique Priest into his house and that yet many receaue them with all the hazard and that therefore we might aswell receaue an Ordinary into our houses acknowledging his Authority The answere will make it appeare that the obiection proueth nothing agaynst vs. For first it is certayne that euen for the reason of being so Capitall and that there are so many lamentable examples among vs not only of friends who haue discouered and betraied other friends for receauing Priests eyther for interest licentiousnesse of lyfe reuenge frailty or for some other passion but of Seruants who haue betrayed their Maysters Nephews Vncles Grandchildren children their Parents Daughters their very Mothers yea and euen Priests themselues sometymes who haue fallen and betrayed Catholikes we neyther are nor can by any humane authority be obliged to take Priests into our houses Many of vs indeed do it out of deuotion and zeale for the comfort of our soules by celebrating Masse and receauing the most necessary and daily Sacraments and many of vs also do it not But howsoeuer we thinke it a very ill consequence to inferre that therefore a man is or may be obliged with the hazard of his estate of lyfe to acknowledge or submit to the Authority of an Ordinary for the practise of some thinges without which we yet finde by experience and Gods grace we haue alwayes subsisted in these sad tymes because forsooth out of voluntary deuotion zeale many of vs are contēt to run the highest hazards in receauing of Priests for the so necessary and dayly exercise of our Religion through want whereof we also find by experience of Saxony Denmark and many other countries in Germany Religion hath in effect wholy fayled Besides a Priest who is a Person of our owne election being first authorized as fit and capable by the Sea Apostolicke may haue entrance into our houses and exercise his function in a much more priuate and safe manner then it is possible for an Ordinary to doe especially when he will carry himselfe as Ordinary For in that case besides seruants there must be alwayes Officers parties and witnesses who do not all and euer vow so much as discretion or yet to continue constant in the Catholicke fayth And for our parts the dangers being such as they are it will be impossible to secure vs in this poynt where sometymes it happeneth that an vndiscreet word vttered euen without ill meaning may turne to our losse of goods and life Besides if we could abstract from the danger of offending the State it is to be considered that our Mariages and Testaments and the lyke are made lyable heere to those Ecclesiasticall Courts and Tribunals which are setled by the lawes of this Kingdome and are executed by certayne Chancellours and Commissaries for that purpose who may often oblige and sentence vs in the affirmatiue whereas a Catholike Ordinary or Iudge would perhaps do it in the negatiue and so we should be tossed betweene two ●ockes Agayne if a Catholicke Ordinary should p●onounce any sētence at which the party might be grieued which must needs occurre somtimes his final remedy would be an appeale to Rome which yet it would be Capitall for him to make besides the charge of prosecuting such a suite and the impossibility for the most part of vs so much as to send or write to a place so distant and so contradicted by the State heere for the bringing of such a suite to an end And to shew both the inconueniences and impossibilities of executing the power of a Catholicke Ordinary in such a

to 2. disp 2. q. 8. punct 2. n. 3. seq Now to his temerity againe 7. The seauenth point of temerity saith he if I may giue it so sharpe a terme is in these words We also most humbly beseech your Lordship to belieue that this which we heere present vnto you is the sense of the Laity whereas scarce 30. Laymen knew of the writing of this Letter since they knew of it many hundreds haue disclaymed from it openly protested against it some of them not accounting those Catholiques that wrote this Letter Hitherto are the Deuines owne words And then he Rhetorically amplifieth it asking whether it be the sense of the English Catholike laity that a Bishop lawfully sent by the sea Apostolike doth vsurp authority must do nothing against the setled Order of the state in matter of spirituall Iurisdictition That a Catholique Episcopall tribunall is a new Tribunall in England so in like sort he reckoneth vp Epilogically al his former temerities and prayeth God forbid that such presumption should be the sense of the Laity And that rather the quite cōtrary is their sense to wit to accept the Bishop for their lawfull Pastor to thanke his holynes for sending him to be as ready if not more to vēture the losse of their estate for entertayning a Bishop their Pastor as for entayning regular Priests and this he saith many hundreds haue testified by word writing and deeds This point it seemeth is a shrewd one in the Deuines iudgment wherfore he would fayne haue a worse tearme then Temerity for it But let him stay and see whether it deserue euē that any more thē the rest that went before To say that this is the sense of the layty wheras scarce 30. knew of the writing of the Letter he sayth is Temerity Yea is it euen so Did 30. know of it how commeth it thē that all this while you spake but of 3. calling it the three Lay-mens Letter in the very title afterwards continually speaking but of three It is wel increased suddainly from three to thirty But meane while hath not our Deuine strangely forgotten himselfe confessing confuting himselfe out of his owne mouth For if 30. or neer 30. were priuy to the writing of the Letter and did not disclayme as if they had done the Deuine would not haue passed it ouer in silence it is to be presumed that they did consent therto If they did consent then was it their act not the act of those 3. alone and what these 3 did they did in the name of the rest Therefore those 30. are subiect to al the Deuines censures of passion and temerity no lesse thē those 3. But he thought better to lay al vpon 3. because he thought he might be the boulder in his censures the smaller the number was therfore he made it lesse to himselfe though contrary to his owne knowledge as is manifest by this his Cōfession Well to go on we haue 30. may there not be a great many more that he doth not know of Will he arrogate so much to himselfe as to know all that passeth in priuate amongst men might not many vtter their mynds so priuately in this matter to their friends as not only not the Deuine but no man else but the party that they spake to shall know it How then doth this Deuine so peremptorily affirme that there were scarce 30. priuy to it As if no man did any thing but they came presently and told him but he must excuse me for not belieuing that but rather it is to be presumed that if he could come to the knowledge of 30. there were fiue tymes as many at least that knew of it are not knowne to euery one considering the secret manner of carrying things of this kind among Catholiques And so much this Deuine might truly haue imagined at least belieued when this Letter was deliuered by 3. such persons in the name of the Laity being euery one of them of such worth as might deserue credit in a greater matter then this For it is no way to be presumed that any one of them would do such a thing in the name of others without very good warrant from them especially seing they might be so easily disauowed Nay it cannot be vnknowne vnto this Deuine that they were warranted by most of the Catholiques of honour and quality in and about London at the tyme of the writing the Letter for my Lord Bishop himselfe did then in a manner confesse as much For to one Noble man very well knowne he writ that his Lordships Letter which he had written to disclayme from the Lay mens Letter appeared vnto him like a starre in a cloud as if he were the only man that stood for him And it can be no lesse knowne to this Deuine what a do ther was to haue a contrary Letter written by some of my Lord Bishop friendes in the name of the laity to the contrary effect But it would not succeed why But because that none that considered the state of Catholique affaires heere in England and what consequences the Authority of Ordinary brought with it and withall had any care of their owne fortunes or common good could thinke it safe for them to admit of such Authority It is true that if a man aske ordinary people that diue not into the matter whether they acknowledge my Lord of Chalcedon for their Pastour or some perhaps who vnderstand the matter better but haue not much to loose it may be they will easily answeare they acknowledge him for their Pastor And this is the way which hath beene vsed with those hundreds which this Deuine sayth haue disclaymed from this Letter But though they were more it made not much matter And though there should be but 30. that were priuy to this Letter might not those 30. be of such account as might be more worth then many of this Deuines hundreds I belieue they might For they are the cheif men for honour and estate that are most to be regarded in this matter as being the men vpon whome the credit of the Catholique cause most dependeth and who for a thing that shal be subiect to exception are most like to suffer therfore they might well say the Laity being the cheifest and better part and what they wanted in number they might counteruayle in worth This letter then is the sense of the Laity not wrested and wrung not glossed and commentaryed by the Deuine at his pleasure but in the plaine and obuious meaning of the very wordes farre from passion and temerity as I haue here shewed And so I come to the 3. Section the title wherof is this Sect. 3. That the motiues of the three men were not all humayne and worldly IN this 3. section the Deuine examineth what the Lay mens motiues were to resist the restoring of Episcopall power or rather to impugne and banish it as he saith according to his vsuall manner

of their tongue then their penne For they will not giue halfe that vnder their hands which they talke freely But if they went vpon a sure ground and meant nothing but wel and fairely what should all this need Well then so it is that the Deuine doth heere challenge more Authority for my Lord Bishop to wit a true Episcopall tribunal then his Lordship doth for himselfe For in his sayd Letter to the Lady vnder his own hand he saith it is a fictiō to which Letter I remit this man for answere to his 4. reason After these 4. substantiall reasons to proue that the daungers are only pretended this Deuine cometh to answere that which the Lay men say in their Letter that the execution of this Episcopall Authority alloweth no possibility of secrecy by asking why not aswell as the execution of Priestly function who say masse preach and communicate before many scores of men women and Children whereas to the Bishops Tribunall there come no children few women and not many men He asketh moreouer how the Bishop hath gone ouer almost all England and confirmed many thousands with sufficient secrecy How was secrecy kept in the primitiue Church How is it now kept in Ireland and Holland To this I answere first that it is no wonder that such men as this Deuine relate the case of English Catholiques elswhere as they please to strangers when this Deuine will tell men heere at home such a tale as this is in writing Secondly I tell him though he cannot but know it the Execution of Episcopall Authority in a Court is of its own nature publique There must of necessity be a Iudge and other Officers there must be partyes there must be witnesses there must be writing there must be records some must be sometymes grieued some will complaine some will appeale Is any of all this needfull in hearing of Masse Sermons or receyuing of Sacraments May not a man heare a Masse confesse and communicate without a Iudge a Summoner a Notary without an accuser a witnesse without a writing c What then doth this Deuine meane to bring such an argument Suppose there be 10. persons at Masse may there not be one alone Can a busines be so dispatched iu●idically in a Bishops Court without writing witnesse or Officer Nay againe suppose there must of necessity be 20. at Masse and a busines in the Bishops Court might be dispatched but with the priuity of 2. men would not euen this be more publique in regard the things must remayne in writing with note of place tyme and other circumstances or that one of the partyes may be grieued as it falleth out commonly in matters of suite For the Secrecy of the Bishops going ouer a great part of England cōfirming I am full glad that he they haue done so well with it and wish they may do so still But for all that it is not good bragging and as secret as it is I know many a right good man that would be loath to haue it so well knowne when he hath a Priest in his house as it is knowne whersoeuer almost his Lordship went and the secrecy it seemeth was so great in some places that there was a great complaint made in Parliament to what bouldnes the Papists were growne to haue a Bishop to whome there was such resort in a certayne place in Staffordshire where he confirmed many and shewed himselfe in his Pontificall Ornaments Thirdly I answere that suppose the Bishops going vp and downe and confirming were as secret and voyd of daunger as this Deuine would haue it what doth it make for his purpose Which is to proue that a Bishops Tribunall alloweth as much secrecy as the exercise of Priestly function For who doubteth but the Bishop may if he will confirme a man as priuatly as a Priest may communicate him Doth it then follow that he may with the same priuacy iudge and determine a controuersy betweene party and party What manner of arguing then is this Now for the Primitiue Church which our Deuine speaketh of I sayd a word before and it is cleare there is a great deale of difference For that persecution was more by fits more violent for the tyme but shorter in the interim there were such calmes as Christians had free resort to publique places of prayer and sacrifice and houses deputed and dedicated for that vse and that not onely by a conniuency but euen by publique allowance of the Emperours restoring vnto them their Churches permitting of free accesse to them the Cemiteries or places of buriall where the bodyes of the Christians and Martyrs reliques were buryed and kept There was an outward apparēt distinction in habit and haire betweene Clergy men others Where hath there beene any thing like this all this time of Schisme in England Haue not men inough to do to heare a Masse priuatly in a corner Where is there a Church to say Masse or to preach or an Oratory for mē to meet pray togeather or Church-yard for Catholiques to bury their dead Or where is there a Priest or Religious man that goeth publiquely in his habit or with his crowne shauen Would not any man count one halfe mad that should go so because they did so sometimes in the Primitiue Church What wonder then is it if in the Primitiue Church Bishops kept their Tribunals Prouinciall Coūcels met with many scores of Bishops as the Deuine sayth Though by his leaue they met not so freely nor exercised their Authority so much at all times to wit in those hoate fittes of persecution And what a wonder is it for our Deuine who must be supposed to haue a little knowledge of the Ecclesiastical History to bob men heere in the mouth with the state of the Primitiue Church The same is of Ireland and Holland For Ireland Catholique Bishops haue still continued in their seuerall Seas with their proper titles heresy hauing neuer taken so deep root there But heere it is well knowne that when our Catholique Bishops were suppressed they during their liues forbare the exercise of that power which they were in possession of the state of things being such as it was and impossible to exercise Episcopal Authority wherefore the Sea Apostolique did not put any Bishop in their place during the space of 60 yeares till of late the state of things nothing changed but only that for matters of life death the lawes were not so rigorously put in execution vpon informatiō of some men who longed for Myters as if the times were now for it Gregory the 15. of happy memory condescended to their importunity sending one with Title of a Bishop but not with that full power which belongeth to a Catholique Country which experience sheweth to be more then the times can well beare What comparison then betwene Ireland and England Now for Holland though considering the littlenesse of persecution they might ten tims better haue a Bishop