their calling Moreouer your reason to proue that the canons of this Councell of Lateran were not generally receiued to wit because they were not receiued in England if it were true yet it is inconsequent and your deceipt or mistake lyeth in the indistinction of the word Canons whereof some be of faith some of manners and discipline Now that a Councell be accounted to be generally receiued it is not required that the Canons of discipline and practise be receiued in all kingdomes but it is sufficient that the Canons concerning matters of faith be generally receiued to stile the reception generall and the Councell generall for so much as the generality of reception can contribute to the title of its being generall As for example the kingdome of France doth not receiue the decrees of the Councell of Trent concerning gouernment but of faith it doth as doe all other Catholique Countries for which reason euen this kingdome which denies to receiue the Councell of Trent in matters of gouernment doth notwithstanding acknowledge it generall By which it appeares that you are not so well versed in Generall Councells and their reception as to know distinctly the meaning of the words according to their Catholique vse Now there is no doubt that the kingdome of England did receiue this Councell for the matters of faith otherwise it would haue beene noted hereticall as now it is and for it s not receiuing the Canons of discipline and gouernment you proue not but by your owne bare word which I may most iustly deny yet I haue other proofes against you But first I will take notice of your mistake if not vnfaithfullnesse in your description of the 46. pretended Canon as you call it contrary to which you say subsidies haue beene payd to the king inconsulto Pontifice as if that Canon had sayd that no subsidies at all should be payd to the king but by the aduice of the Pope whereas the Canon speakes only of the subsidies of the Clergy as requiring the Popes aduice As for the practise of England contrary to these three Canons you mention if it be true which I doe not belieue because I haue heard good lawyers in England say the contrary in one which concernes prescription yet it doth not proue that these Canons were not receiued for these crossings of the Canons may happen either through indulgence of the Pope granted to the kings or the kings vsurpation contrary to the Canōs receiued or in your instāce of prescription through the headstrong impiety of the people who will not obserue the good lawes they receiue being contrary to their euill customes If England had obserued all the Canōs they haue heeretofore receiued when they were as wise as learned as pious as iudicious at the least as now they are you and I I belieue should not haue beene at this bay that now we are Now contrary to your proofelesse assertion I proue that the Canons of this Councell were receiued in England as well those of manners as of faith first by the testimony of Linwood and the municipall lawes of the land as they are affirmed by Franciscus à sancta Clara in his article of transubstantiation Secōdly by the Councell of Oxford before cited held by the then Arch-Bishop of Canterbury but seuen yeeres after this of Lateran which was the very first Councell in the world that was held after this where it is sayd a Binij tom 7. part 2. pag. 233. That all things may be concluded wich a good end wee enioyne that the Lateran Councell celebrated vnder Pope Innocent of holy memory in the paying of tithes and in the other chapters be obserued By which it appeares how much you are deceiued in saying that in England the Canons of this Councell were not receiued as you also are in saying C. Lastly I belieue no good story can be shewed to confirme the pretended title of this Councell that the Patriarch of Ierusalem and Constantinople were present at it and 70. Metropolitans besides though that will not make it generall neither for want of the two other Patriarchs of Antioche and Alexandria who are not mentioned to haue beene among them Howsoeuer nihil ibi actum quod quidem constet and so was it neither any Generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all ANSWER What you belieue imports not for I know you belieue many heresies and errors amongst which errors this is one That no good story can be shewed that the Patriarchs of Ierusalem and Constantinople were present at this Councell c. One is sayd to be present either in person or by deputy that those two Patriarchs which you first mention were there in person is affirmed by Platina Paris and Vrspergensis and that the other two were there by their deputies with aboue 70. Metropolitanes besides a very great number of Archbishops Bishops Abbots and Priors some in person and some by Proxy and with these the Legats and deputies of the two Emperours of all or almost all the Kings Princes citties and other places of the Christian world is recorded by Paris and Vrspergensis And I suppose you will not deny any of them to be good historians especially Paris and Platina whom you called in in the beginning of this your worke as witnesses as you thought against the Canons of this Councell a Matth. Paris hist mai p. 188. i.e. Paris and Vrspergēsis speake almost in the same words b Vrspergens Chronic p. 320. thus Anno ab Incarnatione Verbi 1215. celebrataest sancta vniuersalis Synodus Romae in Ecclesia Saluatoris quae Constantiniana vocatur mense Nouembri praesidente Domino Innocentio Papa tertio Pontificatus eius anno 18. in quo fuerunt Episcopi 412. inter quos extiterunt de praecipuis Patriarchis duo videlicet Constant Hierosol Antiochenus autem graui languore detentus venire non potuit sed mifit pro se Vicarium Anthedarensem Episcopum Alexandrinus vero sub Saracenorum dominio constitutus fecit quod potuit mittens prose Diaconum suum Germanum Primates autem Metropolitani 71. Caeterùm Abbates Priores vltra octingentos Archiepiscoporum vero Episcoporum Abbatum Priorum Capitulorum absentium Procuratorum non fuit certus numerus comprehensus Legatorum vero Regis Siciliae in Romanorum Imperatorem electi Imperatoris Constantinopolitani Regis Franciae Regis Angliae Regis Vngariae Regis Hierosolymitani Regis Cypri Regis Arragoniae necnon aliorum Principum Magnatum ciuitatum aliorumque locorum ingēs fuit multitudo Heere is your erroneous beliefe plainly and amply confuted I wonder what histories you haue read concerning this Councell that these should escape you especially Paris the Popes deare friend and Platina the Popes owne Secretary I haue therfore reason to belieue that you tooke vp these obiections vpon trust and of men that were not faithfull who haue greatly deceiued you And therfore the title of this Councell which you againe so
scornefully and boldly call pretâ—nded shall be really accounted Generall by the best and noblest part of the world the Catholique Church when all other pretended Churches Councells and their Canons their Bishops Deanes and Chapters shall haue no being nor memory but of dishonour You further say according to your manner without proofe that this Councell vas not Generall for want of the personall presence of two of the Patriarchs wherein you are much mistaken for otherwise the first fower commonly stiled Generall and for such acknowledged by very many Protestants cannot be truly such because the Chiefe Patriarch the Bishop of Rome was not present in any of them but by his Legats Vnlesse you will say that though two may not be absent yet one may especially when that one is the Pope a man whoÌ„ you I know can very well spare not only out of the Councell but out of the world And yet I wonder that you that haue had the fortune to be the pretended Deane of S. Peters Borough and the pretended Master of S. Peters house should yet be such an enemy to S. Peters chayre But if you desire to know what makes a Councell generall and what are the insufficiencies thereof which you ought to haue expressed and proued before you had shot your hasty bolt of condemnation against this Councell reade Turrecremata and Canus vpon this subiect You at last conclude thus Howsoeuer nihil ibi actum quod quidem constet and so was it neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all Wherein first your proposition is false and hath no authority that I know of but the worst in the world your owne Yet you set it downe in Latin as if they were the words of some author but neither expresse the place nor so much as his name and therfore I take it for yours and reiect it Secondly if it were true that nothing as done there yet your inference from thence is incoÌ„sequent to wit that therfore it was neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all concerning the nullities of a Councell or of the generality therof I need say no more than I haue done seeing it rests on you to proue that doing nothing is one And for your affirmation that nothing was done I haue fully disproued it through this whole discourse I will therfore only adde the testimony of Matth. Paris who though he were no friend to this Pope as I haue shewed before yet speaking of this Councell in the place aboue cited saith thus His omnibus congregatis in suo loco praefato iuxta morem Conciliorum Generalium in suis ordinibus singulis collocatis facto prius ab ipso Papa exhortationis sermone recitata sunt in pleno Concilio capitula 60. Wherein is a mistake in the figure it should be 70. quae aliis placabilia aliis videbantur onerosa Tandem de negotio Crucifixi subiectione terrae sanctae verbum praedicationis exorsus subiunxit dicens Ad haec ne quid in negotio Iesu Christi de contingentibus omittatatur volumus mandamus c. And so repeats at large the substance of the Decree of the Expedition for the recouery of the Holy land So that it is manifest by this and that which hath beene sayd before that there were many things done in this Councell yea all that are affirmed to bee And it is called a Councell and a generall Councell by Vrspergensis Paris Platina Grantzius Nauclerus BeluaceÌ„sis and all that I can finde that haue any way written therof except your vncontrowlable selfe Besides it hath the allowance of the Holy Catholique Church the awfull spouse of Christ more true more wise more vigilant and infinitly more reuerend then all the sects Synagogues of Schismatiques Heretiques therfore their obiectioÌ„s against her whom they ought to belieue and reuerence aboue all things on the earth especially when they are propounded peremptorily as these are are fitter to be reiected than to be answered I conclude with the words of Surius a Nemo sanae mentis ambigere potest hanc quae sequitur Synodum Lateranensem cum primis insignem vere oecumenicam fuisse quippe in qua de negotiis religionis summa Latinae Graecae Ecclesiae concordiâ tractatum est cuique interfuere Patriarcha Constantinopolitanus Hierosolymitanus Archiepiscopi tum Lani tum Graeci 70. Episcopi 412. Abbates Priores plus 800. simul omnes Praelati 1215. aut eo plures Nec defuere Legati Graeci Romani Imperatoris Regum Hierusalem Galliae Hispaniae Angliae aliorum Quodsi verò ea cuiquam propterea minus ponderis habere videatur quod recentior sit ille certè Christum mendacem facere velle videtur qui perennem praesentiam suam promisit Ecclesiae suae Spiritum sanctum suum Spiritum veritatis qui cum illa maneat in aeternum Manet sua semper Catholicae Ecclesiae authoritas quam quisquis contemnere ausus est non ille efficit vt ea minor sit sed se dignum reddit qui eius pondere penitus opprimatur No man well in his wits can doubt that this Councell of Lateran was very famous and truly generall because therein were handled the matters of ReligioÌ„ with very great agreement of the Greeke and Latine Churches wherin were present the Patriarch of Constantinople and Ierusalem and 70. Archbishops Greeke and Latin Bishops 412. Abbots and Priors aboue 800. all the Prelats together were one thousand two hundred and fifteene or more Neither were there absent the Ambassadours of the Greeke and Roman Emperours of the kings of Ierusalem France Spayne England and others But if this Councell seeme to any to haue lesse weight because it is later hee truly seemes to be willing to make Christ a lyar who hath promised his perpetuall presence to his Church and his Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth which remayneth with her for euer The authority of the Catholique Church doth alwayes abide here which who soeuer presumes to despise he doth not lessen her but renders himselfe worthy to be crusshed to pieces with her weight And now insteed of your prouing the Catholique writers lyars and forgers and the Catholique Church credulous negligent and ignorant which you endeauoured you haue proued your selfe vnwise vnlearned and audacious and I belieue will loose all credit and reputation of integrity or capacity in the iudgement of all prudent men of what religion soeuer they be that shall reade these your vnworthy workes But suppose the thing it selfe were true that you haue laboured for abstracting the authority to the contrary to wit that there had beene no Canons made in this Councell yea suppose there had neuer beene any such thing as this Councell what is it to your purpose What article of our Catholique Faith is therby cancelled how is your inuisible Church of England or your Chappell in France where God hath his Church defended
were yet cloathed with a fleshly garment The seconde in these Further we offer vnto thee this reasonable obseruance for the faithfull departed for our brethren and sisters by the interuention of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles Martyrs Confessours and all the Saints Againe Remember ô Lord as being good thy seruants and pardon what euer they trespassed in their life OBSERVATION Loe a Memento Domine pronounced aloude Prayer made for the dead that they might be deliuered from darknes tribulation and sorrow pardoned what in this life they might haue offended oblation made for them The intercessions of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles c. employed Iudge whether it is the Catholike or Protostant practice which is here expressed and whether of these doeth more emulate the primitiue customes of their forefathers By these more then sufficient testimonies of the Greeke Fathers in their writings Councell Liturgies c. it is most manifest that it was and is the practice of the Greeke Church to offer Sacrifice to giue Almes to pray for the soules departed that their sinnes might be pardoned and they deliuered from their purging paynes their purging fire wherby what is vicious and corrupt might be purged It rests onely that we shew that it is in the sense in which the Councell of Trent holds it which is that which Mr. Cosens denies Heare the Councell of Trent Whereas the Catholike Church instructed by the holy Ghost Sess 25. by holy Writt and the ancient Tradition of Fathers hath taught in holy Councells and lastly in this vniuersall Synode that there is a Purgatorie and that the soules there detayned are helped by the suffrages of the faithfull but especially by the Sacrifice of the acceptable Altar the holy Synode commands the Bishops to vse a diligent endeauour that the wholsome doctrine of Purgatorie deliuered by the holy Fathers and Councells be beleeued held taught and preached euery where by the Faithfull of Christ Againe If any affirme that after the receipt of iustifying grace the fault is so remitted and the guilt of eternall paines so blotted out to any penitent sinner Sess 6. can 30. that there remaynes no guilt of tempor all punishment to be payed either in this life or the next in Purgatorie before we can get entrie into the kingdome of heauen let him be accursed What I pray is here which sounds not the verie same beares not the same sense with the precedent passages of the Greeke Fathers The Councell of Trent saith There is a Purgaterie The Grecian Fathers say A Furnace of purging fire The Councell of Trent affirmes that the Catholique Church instructed by the Holy Gh. c. was taught this doctrine by holy Scripture and the ancient Tradition of Fathers The Grecian Fath. The holy Ghost disposed all these things They were not rashly inuented They were not established in vaine by the Apostolicall lawes The Councell of Trent auerres That the soules there detayned to witt in Purgatorie are helped by the suffrages of the faithfull especially by the Sacrifice of the Altar The Grecian Fath. That the soules of sinners partake some benefit by the vnbloudie Sacrifice and good workes done for them That they prayed for all those who dyed from among them beleeuing that it is a great helpe to their soules for whom the obsecration of the holy and dreadfull Sacrifice which is put vpon the Altar is offered and the price of our Redemption is put downe That Oblations Prayers Almes are not made in vaine for the dead The Priest prayes that the deceased may find his Iudge more propitious That God would become propitious to the sinnes not onely of the liuing but also of the dead That it is an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolicall Church The Councell of Trent commands That the wholsome doctrine of Purgatorie should be beleeued held taught preached c. The Grecian Fath. beleeue hold teach and preach it The Councell of Trent accurses such as deny that after we haue receiued iustifying grace there remaynes any guilt of tempor all punishment either to be payed in this life or in the next in Purgatorie c. The Grecian Fath. affirme that such as are in purging paynes are helped to be freed from them by the suffrages of the faithfull yet liuing to witt by the Sacrifices of Masses prayers almes and other workes of pietie That the sinners which dye are not alwayes sent to hell That the oblations and distributions which are performed for the dead doc not à litle conduce euen to such as dyed in great sinnes Was there euer or euen could there euer be imagined a greater and sweeter harmonie vpon any point of doctrine betwixt the East and the west the Greeke and the Latine Church Is ouum ouo similius Is it not then a boldnes without the warrantie of all reason to affirme the contrarie point blank to witt forsooth that they held it not in the sense the Councell of Trent held it Did they at least hold it in the sense it is held by the Prot. Church of England in her 39. Articles Where she saith The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatorie c. is a fond thing vainely inuented and grounded vpon no warrantie of Scripture but rather repugnant to the word of God Obserue the contrariety betwixt the Greeke and English Protestant Church Origene Sinners are tormented in a purgation made by fire The Prot. Church of England It is a fond thing Article 22. Eusebius Alexand. By the meanes of prayers great rest is procured to the dead The Prot. Church of England It is a thing vainely inuented Art 22. S. Athanasius The soules of sinners haue benefit by the vnbloudie Sacrifice and good workes done for them The Prot. Church of Eng. The Sacrifices of Masses in the which it was comonly said Art 31. that the Priests did offer Christ for the quicke and the dead to haue remission of payne or guilt were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceipts Cyrillus Hier. A dreadfull Sacrifice put vpon the Altar and offered for our sinnes The Prot. Church of Eng. Blasphemous fables dangerous deceipts Cyrillus Hier. He beleeued that it to witt prayer for the dead was a great helpe to their soules The Prot. Art 22. Church of Eng. A fond thing vainely inuented S. Greg. Nyssenus Expiation after death by purging fire The Prot. Church of Eng. There is no other satisfaction for sinne but that alone Art 31. to witt the bloudie oblation finished once vpon the Crosse S. Chrysostome A Doctrine of the diuine mercy The Prot. Church of Eng. A fond thing Art 22. S. Chrys A thing not rashly inuented The Prot. Church of Eng. A thing Vainely inuented S. Chrys Disposed by the Holy Ghost The Prot. Art 31. Church of Eng. A dangerous deceipt S. Chrys An Apostolicall Constitution that memorie should be made of the soules departed in the diuine mysteries The Prot. Church of Eng. Art 22. Grounded vpon no warranty of Scripture
animique male compositi malam sententiam res fingere verbáque formare indigna Romano Pontifice ab hoc vno tampatenti mendacio caetera discas caueas videasque qua tunc sit homo fide dignus cuÌ„ totus sit in carpendis Rom. Eccles Pontificibus And therfore his accusation of the Pope for exacting a great summe of mony of the Councell first as it is impertinent to your buisinesse for his couetounsesse could not nullifie the Canons of the Councell so also is it most vnlikely to be true because Paris is recorded for a slanderer and Pope Innocent III. for a worthy and excellent man d Nauclerus vol. 2. p. 876. Nauclerus calleth him vir doctrina moribus insignis And Platina in his life saith constat cum in quouis genere vitae probatissimum fuisse dignumque qui inter Sanctos Pontifices censeatur And againe in the next words to those you cite cuius vita adeo probata fuit vt post eius mortem nihil eorum quae in vita egerit laudauerit improbaueritque immutatum est The same also saith Nauclerus and adds quin religionis apprimè studiosus But you are glad to cite any thing to the disparagement of à Pope though there be no colour of truth for it Now that nothing at all was done in this Councell which is the mayne matter you driue at e Vol. 2. p. â—15 for which you haue misinterpreted the meaning of Platina and Paris is very vntrue Which I proue first by the authority of Gregory IX who liued in the time of this Councell and was created Pope but about eleuen yeares after and commanded the Decrees should be put in the body of the Canon law wherein hee vsed the seruice of Raymundus of whom Platina thus writeth e In vita Greg. IX fine Raymundum autem Barchino nensem quo adiutore in compilando libro Decretalium Gregorius vsus est ita quidam tà m laudant vt maiori commendatione laudari nemo possit So say the Annal Eeâ—lEs post Bason tom 13. p 459 XV. And Binius in the life of the sayd Gregory IX saith that this Raymundus was Canonized by Clement VIII Secondly S Thom. 4. sent dist 17. q 3. art 1 ad tertiam I proue it by the testimony of the greatest DIuines of that age S. Thomas and S. Bonauenture who speaking of the precept of yearly confession S Bonau 4. sent dist 17. q. 2. arg 3. say that the Church did institute it and the Fathers command it in this Councell Thirdly by the testimony of the Councell of Trent which speaking of the same Decree calls it Conc Trid sess 14 can 8. the constitution of the great Lateran Councell And that the Acts of this Councell were alwayes extant and are not counterfait appeares in that they now are and haue beene in the body of the Canon law euer since the time of Greg. IX who commanded them to be inserted and f Annal. Eecles post Baron tom 13. anno 1234. XV. anno 1234. which were but nineteene yeares after the Councell approued the collection Neither could any man haue meanes to know the truth of the Canons better than hee the Councell hauing beene held not long before by his vncle in that citty where hee being Pope could command the sight of all the monuments and many were still aliue who had beene present in the Councell celebrated but nineteene yeares before the publishing of these Canons knew therfore what was done in it better than those who were further remoued either in time as Platina was or in place as was Matthew Paris if they had as you suppose said any thing against it Nor was it likely that Pope Gregory either would or could haue obtruded them before the eyes of such great Prelats and Princes for decrees made in Councell had they not beene so indeed Nor would the Church the things there determined soe much concerning her nor they who did soe much emulate her proceedings haue beene silent had such a thing beene attempted Lastly I proue that there were Canons made in this Councell yea and that those Canons were receiued in England a thing which you deny towards the end of your discourse by a f Matth. Paris hist ma. anno 1222. generall CouÌ„cell so it is stiled of England held at Oxford by Stephen Archbishop of Canterbury in the yeare 1222. which was but seuen yeares after this of Lateran and about 12. yeares before the Canons therof were put into the Decretalls by Gregory IX where towards the end it is said g Binij CoÌ„oil tom 7. part 2.2 fol. 833. Vt autem omnia fine bono concludantur Lateranense Concilium sub sanctae recordationis Papa Innocentio celebratum in praestatione decimarum in aliis capitulis praecipimus obseruari But this is not all you haue to say against this Councell C. There be many things besides which may make vs iustly to suspect the authority of this pretended great Councell For first before Cochlaeus put 〈◊〉 forth it was neuer extant and it was but lately neither that hee put it forth in the yeare 1538. Three yeares before wheÌ„ Merlin put forth the Councells there was no such Councell that hee met withall to set out it is not in his edition But Cochlaeus a man not so well to be trusted who feigned many things in writing Luthers life tells vs that hee had the Decrees of this Councell out of an antient booke but where hee got that booke or who first compiled it or of what authority it was hee tells vs nothing at all It is most likely that antient booke was no other but the booke of the Popes Decretalls where those things that are said by him to be decreed in this Councell are heere and there scattered in seuerall places Those scatterings I belieue did Cochlaeus or some other collect together and made vp one body of them in manner and forme of a Councell But so illfauored a forme hath hee giuen it that often it betrayeth it selfe not to be genuine and taken out of any authenticke coppy ANSWER You further say that there are many things besides which may make you iustly suspect the authority of this pretended great Councell as you are pleased to call it I easily belieue that there are many things that make you not only to suspect but flatly to reiect the authority of this and many other Generall Councells but none iustly But it is not the authority of this Generall Councell which is the same in all but the verity of the Canons and Decrees therof you would haue sayd and the authority of theÌ„ that affirme those Decrees that you with so much sagacity suspect And if you thinke the Councell and the Canons thereof but pretended which are acknowledged true by the voyce of all the Catholiques of the world what shall make them to be accounted reall or shall the voyce of one pretended Deane
time they might haue beene let alone till this present yeare or not printed at all would that haue made you suspect the truth of them all it would then haue made the world suspect you for à very weake man or rather haue put you below all suspition But it so falling out that the Councells were printed at senerall times by the care of seuerall men the later they were printed the more meanes had the publisher to make further search and to enforme himselfe out of the Manuscripts more fully as wee find that in all editions of bookes the latest if the publisher apply due diligence are most full most pure and most correct I hope you will not say that the late edition of S. Chrysostome by Sr. Henry Sauill is therfore the more suspitious So that heere is neither truth in the grounds of your suspition nor reason that this last should be any ground though it were true You say moreouer that Cochlaeus sayes that hee had the Decrees of this Councell out of an antient booke but where hee got that booke or who first compiled it or of what authority it was hee tells vs nothing at all And you adde your coniecture as weake as your former suspition that it is most likely that that booke was the Popes Decretalls where the supposed Canons of This Councell are scattered in seuerall places Concerning Cochlaeus I can say nothing seeing I cannot meet as I said before with this his worke that you cite but I will fauour you so farre as to suppose you say true thē cōsider the purpose of it which indeed is none at all But for that hee had it out of an ancient booke is much to his purpose which booke I will be bold to coniecture seeing you are so for your liking was the very Originall of the Councell it selfe and where hee got it is impertinent for you to demand And for this my coniecture I will giue you good ground this that in Crabs edition of the Councells I finde an Epistle to the Reader before the beginning of this Councell the title wherof is this Bartholomens Laurens Nouimagensis Lectorl the beginning of the Epistle this Haec sunt quae ex Archetypo illo cuius supra mentio sit lectu adeo difficili summo labore descripsimus quae sicui grata vtilia fuerint primum gratias agat Deo qui horum qualecunque exemplar hucusque seruauit deinde F. Petro Crab qui hoc ipsum vt inter Cōcilia ederetur procurauit And this perhaps is the preface which you mention hereafter and ascribe to Cochlaeus for other I finde not But whose soeuer it was it proues thus much that this Councell which was first published that I can find by Peter Crab was taken out of the Original Record than which there can be no better authority and so hee saith againe in the body of his Epistle certè in editione hac scdulo curatum est ne quicquam ei ab Archetypo alienum ingeri possei And in this edition is the Decree of the expeditiō and the others which in particular you hereafter seeke to nullifie wherby those obiections are before hand answered yet I will say more when I come to them But suppose the Decrees of this Councell had beene taken out of the Popes Decretalls the originall being lost as were the Canons of the first Councell of Nice which makes so much vncertainty about the number of thē into which they were inserted as I shewed before by Gregory the ninth but a few year es after they were made in seuerall places according to the seuerall titles to which they were to be referred which you disgracefully call scattering what impeachment is this vnto their credit The Popes Decretalls are a testimony of no small reputation amongst all learned Christians And why I pray scatterings the Decretalls are not a collection of the Councells that so you should expect euery Canon in his order but à digestion of the Canons of all the Councells that pertayne to one matter vnder one head like the collection of the Statutes of England by Rastall and others out of which if one would vndertake to extract all the lawes made in Queene Elizabeths raigne hee must looke perhaps in a hundred seuerall places which yet I thinke you will not call scattering but methodicall digestion But these are the reproaches throwne vpon the chiefe spirituall father of the Christian world by those whom God hath like Symeon and Leui for the cruell schisme they haue made in the Church diuided in Iaacob and scattered in Israel But from whence soeuer the first publisher of this Councell tooke the Canōs thereof certaine it is that they were acknowledged and ascribed to this Councell by a testimony aboue all exception namely of the whole clergy of England in a Councell at Oxford as I haue shewed before that 12. yeares before the booke of the Decretalls was compiled So that from the Decretalls is not the first view that wee haue of the Canons of this Councell You againe repeat and say Those scatterings you belieue Cochlaeus or some other did collect together and made vp one body of them in manner and forme of a Councell But so ill fauoured a forme hee hath giuen it that it often betrayeth it selfe not to be genuine and taken out of any authentique coppie Euen now you sayd without doubt that it was Cochlaeus that set forth this Councell now it was hee or some other and this I must needs grant is very true for if it be set forth certainly it was either by one or another And if it were not Cochlaeus then haue you lost much labour in seeking to poyson his credit herein And if it were some other then is your decrying this Councell by reason of this edition of Cochlaeus of no force for then I affirme that this some other was a man of the greatest credit of all other and so the case is cleere against you out of your owne words and you say nothing heere to impeach the credit of this other which I wonder at for you may aswell speake against you know not whom as say you know not what as you doe in all this discourse You tooke it ill of Cochlaeus that hee did not tell you where hee had that antient booke and haue not wee much more reason to take it ill of you that will not tell vs who it was that first put forth this Coūcell you so much finde fault with nor giue vs any ayme to finde out this editiō you meane written by you know not whom from any other but although you heere fayle vs yet you thinke you come home to vs in that which followes and although you know not who first put forth this Councell and that wee know that both first and last haue done it in the same manner yet without relation to the publisher the very forme of this Councell you say is so ill fauouted that it often
that you may againe fall into the fault of which you falsely accuse others you are out in your computation of the yeeres of the holding of the Councell of Florence but this I doe not mention as a matter of moment it being brought in but on the by But I cannot omitt a weighty passage that you haue a little before where you say that betweene the seuenth and the eighth generall Councell you trow there cannot come another if it were so great and so generall as this is sayd to be Wherby you intimate that the greatnesse of this Councell was the hinderāce that it could not come betweene the seuenth and the eighth and by consequence that if it had beene a little one it might haue come betweene which is a very new and pretty fancy A little generall Councell it seemes might haue crowded in betweene the seuenth and the eighth as an appendix to the former or otherwise haue found place and vnion with it vnder the same name and number of the seuenth but this being so great and so generall could not possibly finde a roome betwixt them but that it must make two eights as you say rather than an eighth and a ninth which ninth if it had beene so in this case might yet haue beene called the eighth in some other respect as I haue shewed But I had thought that Councells in regard of number being of discrete quantity did not require any place by reason of their greatnesse as if they were in this regard of continued quantity also more than if they had beene little the abstract number of eight I trow can no more come in betweene seuen and eight in a small subiect thā in a great and therfore the greatnesse of this Councell was no more hinderance to its coming in betweene the seuenth and the eighth without chāging the name and order of the number than if it had beene neuer so little You tell vs also that in the last session of the Councell of Florence it is expressely set downe Finis octaui Concilij generalis c. yet the words more expressely than you haue set thē downe are Finis generalis octauae Synodi which though not different in substance yet the difference of the words Concilium and Synodus if you had vnderstood the reason thereof had beene enough to preuent your obiection For it appeares hy an epistle of Bartholomaeus Abramus to the Archbishop of Rauenna set downe by Crab at the beginning of this Councell and by Binius at the end that the Latin Originall of this Councell was lost and that this that is now extant was translated by the sayd Abramus out of the Greeke for which reason he vseth the word Synodus according to the Greeke not Concilium and it is called octaua because it was so in the greeke which hee translated and the Greekes set it downe so because as I sayd before they accounted no Councells generall but where they themselues were present and which they did receiue of which this was indeed the eighth But this account is for very good reasons reiected by a Praefat. huic Synod Surius and b Notis in Concil Florent Binius and by all Catholiques And Crab though hee haue no caueat vppon this place yet that you may see he spake according to the letter of the greeke coppy and not his owne minde he calleth all the Councells betwixt the 2. of Nice and Florence Generall Councells all that the Church accounteth so and particularly of this Councell of Lateran he sayth Instituta generalis Concilij Lateranensis tempore Innocentij Papae tertij In the end of this section you make this notable conclusion So that vnlesse they will make two eight generall Councells this of Lateran could be none which out of your discourse may as iustly be inferred thus so that vnlesse they will make two or nine eight generall Councells that of Constantinople the fourth the fower of Lateran the two of Lions that of Vienne that of Pisa that of Florence or some one of these could be none Could be none is a false consequence could not be the eighth is true nor is that of Florence or Lateran numbred for the eighth by any Catholiques at this day but this is reckoned the twelfth that most commonly the sixteenth But that the number of eight which you so hunt heere may come in because nos numeri sumus he that first made this obiection which I belieue was not you shall by my consent be reckoned Sapientum octauus the eighth wise man which he shall be without a riuall there shall not be two of them especially if he that next aspires to it be a great one for then I trow he cannot interueene in the order of number betweene the eighth and the ninth as you haue taught vs for our learning C. Besides if it were a generall Councell how came it to passe that the Canons of it were neuer generally receiued as amongst vs in the Church and kingdome of England they were not and as without doubt they would haue beene had the Councell in those dayes beene accounted generall and the Decrees of it vnder that stile and title sent abroad into the world But with vs in England euer since that time and contrary to the 46. pretended Canon of it subsidies haue beene payd to the king inconsulto Pontifice and against the 41. Canon with vs Currit praescriptio though oftentimes ex bona fide ortum non habeat and yet againe contrary to the third Canon there with vs Clericorum bona qui de haeresi conuicti sunt they goe not to the vse of the Church but are alwayes brought into the kings Exchequer ANSWER The generality of this Councell you further goe about to disproue because the Canons thereof were not as you say generally receiued and this you proue because they were not receiued in England but that they were not receiued in England you doe not proue but by three instances which you doe not proue and if you had they had proued nothing For it is not properly the generall receiuing that makes a Councell to be generall but the generall calling thereof from all parts of the Christian world and such was this Otherwise no Councell could be stiled generall in the calling of it or while it was sitting or when it was concluded vntill it did appeare that all the world had receiued it which is a condition that neuer happened to any Councell because some or other heretiques against whom all generall Councells haue beene commonly called or perhaps all did refuse to receiue it So that by this your character of a generall Councell you haue plainly casheired all the generall Councells that euer were for euen the first fower which you seeme to magnifie and grant them the title of Generall were the Canons of them generally receiued It is manifest that they were not but were reiected by all those sorts of heretiques who were the occasion of