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A41285 A second speech of the Honovrable Nathanael Fiennes, second son to the right honourable the Lord Say, in the Commons House of Parliament touching the subjects liberty against the late canons and the new oath. Fiennes, Nathaniel, 1607 or 8-1669. 1641 (1641) Wing F878; ESTC R8459 10,471 24

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not whether it be true they say or noe but whether they have power to say what is Treason and what not But now Sir that I am upon this point J would gladly know what kind of power that is which is exercised by Arch-bishops Bishops Deanes Arch-Deacons c. Coactive certainly it is all the Kingdome feeles the lash thereof and it must needes bee independent if it be jure Divino as they hold it for they doe not meane by an independent power such a power as doth not depend on GOD Besides if their power bee dependent of whom is it dependent not of the King for the Law acknowledgeth no way whereby Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction can bee derived from his Majestie but by his commission under the great Seal which as I am informed they have not I speake not of the High Commission but of that jurisdiction which they exercise in their Archiepiscopall Episcopall Archidiaconall Courts c. and therefore if their owne sentence bee just wee know what they are and what they have pronounced against themselves But Sir it were worth knowing what they aymed at in that independent coactive power which they terme popular J will not take upon mee to unfold their meaning but wee know Doct. Beale had a hand in the making of these Canons and if wee apply his Paraphrase to the text it may give us some cleerenesse J remember amongst other notes of his this was one that we did acknowledge the Kings Supremacy but would joyne unto him an assistant viz. the people meaning this House which being the representative body of the COMMONS of England and claiming as it is so a share in the Legislative power Doct Beale calleth this a joyning of an assistant to the King in whom soly he placeth the power of making Lawes and that it is but of grace that he assumeth either the Lords or Commons for the making of Lawes with him Now Sir the Legislative power is the greatest power and therefore coactive and it is the highest power and therefore independent and if every Estate for the proportion it hath therein should not have such a power it should not have it of right as founded in the Fabricke and frame of the policy and government but of Grace or by Commission as Doctor Beale affirmeth J have done with the first Canon onely J shall adde this that considering the Principles and positions that are laid downe therein and comparing them with a clause towards the end of the Canon that in no case imaginable it is lawfull for Subjects to defend themselves wee may judge how farre forth these Canons were to prepare mens mindes for the force that was to follow after if the accusation against my Lord of Strafford be layed aright For the matter it selfe I hope there will never be any need to dispute that question and J doe beleeve they had as little need to have published that position had it not beene upon designe As for the second Canon therein also they have assumed to themselves a Parliamentary power in taking upon them to appoint Holidayes whereas the Statute saith in expresse wordes that such dayes shall bee onely kept as Holy dayes as are named in the Statute and no other and therefore though the thing may be bonum yet it was not done bene because not ordained by Parliament notwithstanding what hath beene alleadged to the contrary it seemeth to me to be the appoynting of an Holy day to set a time a part for Divine Service and to force men under penalties to leave their labours and businesse and to be present at it And of the same nature is that other clause in the same Canon wherein they take upon them without Parliament to lay a charge upon the people enjoyning two Bookes at least for that day to be bought at the charge of the Parish for by the same right that they may lay a penny on the Parish without Parliament they may lay a pound or any greater Summe As to the third Canon I shall passe it over onely the observation that my neighbour of the long Robe made upon it seemes unto mee so good as that it is worth the repeating that whereas in the Canon against Sectaries there is an especiall proviso that it shall not derogate from any Statute or Law made against them as if their Canons had any power to disanull an act of Parliament there is no such Proviso in this Canon against Papists from whence it may be probably conjectured that they might have drawne some colour of exemption from the penall Lawes established against them from this Canon because it might seeme hard that they should be doubly punished for the same thing as we know in the point of absence from the Church the Law provideth that if any man be first punished by the ordinary he shall not be punished againe by the Justices For the fourth Canon against Socinianisme therein also these Canon-makers have assumed to themselves a Parliamentary power in determining an Heresie not determined by Law which is expressely reserved to the determination of a Parliament It is true they say it is a complication of many heresies condemned in the foure first Conncills but they doe not say what those Heresies are and it is not possible that Socinianisme should bee formally condemned in those Councills for it is sprang up but of late Therefore they have taken upon them to determine and damne a Heresie and that so generally as that it may be of very dangerous consequence for condemning Socinianisme for an heresie and not declaring what is Socinianisme it is left in their brests whom they will judge and call a Socinian I would not have any thing that I have said to be interpreted as if J had spoken it in favour of Socianisme which if it be such as J apprehend it to be is indeed a most vile and damnable heresie and therefore the framers of these Canons are the more to blame in the next Canon against Sectaries wherein besides that in the pre-Preamble thereof they lay it downe for a certaine ground which the holy Synod knew full well that other Sects which they extend not onely to Brownists and Separatists but also to all persons that for the space of a moneth doe absent themselves without a reasonable cause from their owne Parish Churches doe equally endeavour the Subversion of the Discipline and Doctrine of the Church of England with the Papists although the worst of them doe not beare any proportion in that respect to the Papists J say besides that they make them equall in crime and punishment to the Papists notwithstanding the great disproportion of their Tenents there is an other passage in this Canon relative to that against Socinianisme which I shall especially offer to your consideration and that is this If a Gentleman comming from beyond Seas should happen to bring over with him a Booke contrary to the Discipline of the Church of England or should give such a Booke
is necessary to Salvation Jt is not true that Arch-bishops Bishops Deanes Arch-Deacons c. are jure Divino as they must needs be if the Law-makers ought of right to establish them as they are established for the Law-makers are not bound as of right to frame their Lawes to any other then the Lawes of God alone Now whether Bishops be Jure Divino we know it is a dispute amongst the Papists and never did any Protestant hold it till of late yeares but that Arch-bishops Deanes Arch-Deacons c. should be jure Divino I doe not know that ever any Christian held it before and yet he that taketh this Oath must sweare it Lastly as he that taketh this Oath cannot sweare in judgement nor in truth so neither can hee sweare in righteousnesse for it is full of unrighteousnesse being indeed as hath beene well opened a Covenant in effect against the King and Kingdome for if the whole State should find it necessary to alter the Government by Arch-bishops Bishops c. a great part of the Kingdome especially of the Gentry for not onely the Clergy but all that take degrees in the Vniversities are bound to take it will be preingaged not to consent to it or admit of it Againe it is a great wrong to those that shall bee Parliament-men that their freedome shall bee taken away being bound up by an Oath not to consent to the altering of a thing which it may bee fit and proper for a Parliament to alter And suppose that for the present it be no hinderance to the service of God nor yet burdensome to the King and Kingdome yet if it should prove so hereafter for a man to bee bound by an Oath never to consent to alter it may be a great wrong to God in his service and to the King and Kingdome in their peace and well-fare and therefore this Oath cannot bee taken in righteousnesse For the other Oath de parendo juri Ecclesiae stando mandatis Ecclesiae though it make lesse noyse then the other yet it is not of lesse dangerous consequence If I remember well the Story this was the Oath that the Pope made King John to take and when he had sworne stare mandatis Ecclesiae the Pope commanded him to resigne his Kingdome to him and truely be hee Gentleman or Nobleman or what ever else when hee hath once put his necke into this nouse his Ghostly Fathers may drag him whither they will for they have the quantity and the quality of the penance in their owne brest and if they shall enjoyne him to give any summe towards the building of a Church or the adorning of a Chappell he must pay it or if they should enjoyne him any servile or base action as there are not wanting examples of that kinde in the time of Popery they are sworne stare mandatis Ecclesiae and so cannot recede but must performe it Nay I dare not warrant any man from the rods of Henry the second or of Raymond of Tholouze what hath beene done may be done J am sure the power is the same And that other Oath also though more usuall in practise and more confirmed by th●se new Canons which is administred to Church-Wardens would bee looked into For it is hardly possible for them that take it not to be for sworne being they sweare to so many particulars that they cannot mind and to some that they cannot understand as how many Church-Wardens are there in England that understand what Socinianisme is in case they be sworne to present the offenders against that Canon which concernes that matter I shall onely adde a word or two concerning two Canons more which seeme to be Canons of Reformation The first is concerning excommunication to bee pronounced onely by a Divine wherein it is alleadged for the framers of these Canons that if they have not more Law on their sides yet they may seeme to have more reason For my part as in all other things I thinke they have so mended the matter that they have made it farre worse for before that which was found fault with was this that a Lay-man did that which the grave Divine should have done and now the grave Divine must doe what ever the Lay-man would have done for the cogniscance of the cause and the power of judicature is wholy in the Lay-man onely the grave Divine is to bee his Servant to execute his Sentences and hath such a kind of managing the spirituall sword allowed onely unto him as the Papists in some cases were wont to afford unto the civill Magistrate in respect of the Temporall sword for as if the Civill sword by an implicite Faith had beene pinned to the Lawn-sleeves they condemned men of Heresie and then delivered them over to the Secular power but what to doe Not to have any cognisance of the cause nor to exercise any power of judicature but onely to bee their executioners and to burne the Heretick whom they had condemned and so they judged men excommunicate and then the civill power was to send out writtes de Excommunicato ●apiendo against them but one said well that the sword without cognisance of the cause and judgement was like Polyphemus without his eye it became violence and fury But being accompanied with the eye of judgement it is equity and justice and surely where the spirituall or civill governour is called upon to strike hee must bee allowed to see and judge whom and wherefore hee strikes otherwise he will bee able to give but an ill accompt to God of the managing of the sword wherewith hee is instructed The other Canon is the last Canon against vexatious citations wherein they seeme to have some sense of the great grievances that poore people lye under by occasion of vexatious citations and molestations in Ecclesiasticall Courts and I verily beleeve that there is not a greater oppression in the whole Kingdome upon the poorer sort of people then that which proceedeth out of these Courts But now Sir Let us see what provision they have made against it by this Canon They say because great grievances may fall upon people by citations upon pretence onely of the breach of that Law without any presentment or any other just ground that no citations grounded onely as aforesaid shall issue out except it be under the hand and Seale of the Chancellour Commissary Arch-Deacon or other competent Judge so that if there bee any sense in these words though there bee no presentment at all nor any other just ground yet a citation may issue out so it be under the hand and Seale of the Chancellour Commissary or other competent Iudge and the party shall not be discharged without paying his fees nor have any reliefe by this Canon But suppose the citation bee not under the hand and Seale of any competent Judge and that there was neither presentment nor any just ground for it shall he then be dismissed without paying any fees No unlesse first contrary to the law of nature there being no presentment nor just ground of accusation against him hee shall by his oath purge himselfe of pretended breaches of Law and then too hee shall onely have the fees of the Court remitted but shall have no satisfaction for his troublesome and chargeable journey and for the losse of his time and being drawne away from his aff●ires Nay lest they should seeme to have beene too liberall of their favour they adde a Proviso in the close of the Canon that this grace of theirs shall not extend to any grievous crime as Schisme Incontinency misbehaviour in the Church or obstinate inconformity And what do they call misbehaviour in the Church If a man doe not kneele at the Confession or have his hat on when the Lessons are reading In like manner what doe they call obstinate inconformity If a man will not thinke what they would have him thinke if a man will not say what they would have him say if a man will not sweare what they would have him sweare if a man will not read what they would have him read if a man will not preach what they would have him preach if a man will not pray what they would have him pray In short if a man will not doe what ever they would have him doe then he is an inconformist and after that they have duely admonished him primò secundò tertiò all in one breath then hee is contumacious then he is an obstinate Jnconformist Now Sir my humble motion is that in consideration of all the premisses and what besides hath beene well laid open by others wee should proceed to damme these Canons not onely as contrary to the Lawes of the Land but also as containing sundry matters destructive of the rights of Parliaments and of the fundamentall and other principall Lawes of this Kingdome and otherwise of very dangerous consequence FINIS
to his friend nay if any man should abett or maintaine an opinion contrary thereunto though it were but in Parliament if he thought it fit to be altered by this Canon hee is excommunicate ipso facto and lyeth under the same consideration and is lyable to the same punishment as if he had maintained an opinion against the Deity of CHRIST and of the Holy Ghost and of our Justification by the satisfaction of Christ Sir if in things that are in their owne Nature indifferent if in things disputable it shall be as heynous to abett or maintaine an opinion as in the most horrible and monstrous heresies that can bee imagined what liberty is left to us as Christians What liberty is left to us as men I proceed to the sixt Canon wherein these Canonists have assumed to themselves a Parliamentary power and that in a very high degree in that they have taken upon them to impose new Oathes upon the Kings Subjects Sir under favour of what hath beene alleaged to the contrary to impose an Oath if it bee not an higher power then to make a Law it is a power of making a Law of a most high Nature and of higher and farther consequence then any other Law and I should much rather chuse that the convocation should have a power to make Lawes to bind my person and my estate then that they should have a power to make Oathes to bind my conscience a Law binds mee no longer then till another Law be made to alter it but my Oath bindes mee as long as I live Againe a Law bindes mee either to obedience or to undergoe the penalty inflicted by the Law but my Oath bindes mee absolutely to obedience And lastly a Law binds me no longer then I am in the Land or at the farthest no longer then I am a Member of the State wherein and whereby the Law is made but my Oath once being taken doth bind mee in all places and in all conditions so long as I live Thus much J thought good to speake concerning the power of imposing new Oathes as to the matter of this new Oath it is wholy illegall It is aginst the Law of this Land it is against the Law and Light of Nature it is against the Law of GOD it is against the Lawes of this KINGDOME And that no obscure Lawes nor concerning any meane or pettie matters It is against the Law of the Kings Supremacie in that it maketh Arch-bishops Bishops Deanes Arch-Deacons c. to be jure Divino whereas the Law of this Land hath annexed to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme not onely all Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction but also all Superiority over the Ecclesiasticall State and it is to bee derived from him by Commission under the great Seale and consequently it is Jure humano Againe it is against the Oath of Supremacy established by Law point blanck for therein I am sworne not onely to consent unto but also to assist and to the uttermost of my power to defend all Jurisdictions preheminence c. annexed to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme of which this is one and that which immediately precedeth this Oath in the Statute and whereunto it doth especially relate That his Majestie may exercise any Jurisdictions or Ecclesiasticall government by his Commission under the great Seale directed to such persons as hee shall thinke meet so that if hee shall thinke other persons more meet then Arch-bishoos Bishops c. I am sworne in the Oath of Supremacie not onely to assent thereunto but to assist and to the uttermost of my power to defend such an appointment of his Majesty and in this new Oath J shall sweare never to consent unto such an alteration In the like manner it is against the Law and Light of Nature that a man should sweare to answere c. to he knowes not what It is against the Law and light of Nature that a man should sweare never to consent to alter a thing that in its owne nature is alterable and may prove inconvenient and fit to be altered Lastly it is against the Law of God for whereas there are three rules prescribed to him that will sweare aright that he sweare in Judgement in Truth and righteousnesse hee that shall take this new Oath must needs breake all these three Rules He can not sweare in judgement because this Oath is so full of ambiguities that hee can not tell what hee sweares unto not to speake of the unextricable ambiguity of the c. There is scarce one word that is not ambiguous in the principall parts of the Oath as First What is meant by the Church of England whether all the Christians in England or whether the Clergie onely or onely the Arch-bishops Bishops Deanes c. or whether the Convocation or what In like manner it is as doubtfull what is meant by the Discipline and what by the Doctrine of the Church of England for what some call superstitious Jnnovations if others affirme to be consonant to the Primitive and that the purest Reformation in the time of Edward the 6. and in the beginning of the Reigne of Queene Elizabeth and so for the Doctrine of the Church of England if all the Positions that of later yeares have beene challenged by some of our Divines to bee Arminian and Popish and contrary to the Articles of our Religion and which on the other side have beene asserted and maintained as consonant to the Doctrine of our Church and if the Articles of Religion were gathered together they might make a prety volume nay Sancta Clara will maintaine it in despight of the Puritanes that the Doctrine of the Church of Rome is the Doctrine of the Church of England Truely it were very fit that we knew what were the Doctrine and Discipline of the Church of England before we sweare to it and then Sir give me leave to say that J should bee very loath to sweare to the Discipline or to the Doctrine and Tenents of the purest Church in the World as they are collected by them farther then they agree with the Holy Scriptures Lastly it is as doubtfull what is meant by the Doctrine and Discipline established and what by altering and consenting to alter whether that is accompted or established which is established by act of Parliament or wheter that also that is established by Canons Injunctions c. and whether it shall not extend to that which is published by our Divines with the allowance of authority and so for consenting to alter whether it be onely meant that a man shall not be active in altering or whether it extend to any consent and so that a man shall not submit to it nor accept of it being altered by the State More ambiguities might be shewen but these are enough to make it cleere that hee that shall take this Oath cannot sweare in judgement Nor can he sweare in truth for it is full of untruthes It is not true that Discpline