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england_n call_v church_n people_n 2,632 5 4.8203 4 false
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A93642 Groanes for liberty· Presented from the Presbyterian (formerly non-conforming) brethren, reputed the ablest and most learned among them, in some treatises called Smectymnuus, to the high and Honorable Court of Parliament in the yeare 1641, by reason of the prelates tyranny. Now awakened and presented to themselves in the behalf of their now non-conforming brethren. With a beam of light, discovering a way to peace. Also some quæres for the better understanding of Mr Edwards last book called Gangræna. With a parallel betweene the prelacy and presbytery. / By Iohn Saltmarsh preacher of the Gospel. Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647.; Smectymnuus. 1646 (1646) Wing S489; Thomason E327_20; ESTC R200661 20,628 47

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be_o sure_a above_o the_o crime_n of_o the_o remonstrant_a 13._o nonconforming_a brethren_n who_o be_v unsettle_a in_o point_n of_o a_o mean_a difference_n which_o there_o usual_a language_n know_v by_o no_o better_a term_n than_o schimaticks_n and_o factious_a yet_o even_o such_o as_o have_v fall_v under_o the_o heavy_a censure_n of_o excommunication_n deprivation_n suspension_n etc._n etc._n quaere_fw-la 1._o why_o be_v it_o such_o a_o crime_n to_o count_v any_o schismatic_n and_o factious_a under_o prelacy_n and_o why_o be_v it_o now_o under_o presbytery_n matter_n of_o just_a report_n against_o other_o 2._o if_o excommunication_n deprivation_n suspension_n etc._n etc._n be_v esteem_v so_o burdensome_a and_o cruel_a then_o why_o be_v fine_n penalty_n and_o imprisonment_n so_o much_o preach_v for_o now_o why_o do_v not_o the_o brethren_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n think_v it_o as_o hard_o for_o the_o magistrate_n to_o afflict_v their_o brethren_n as_o they_o think_v it_o hard_o in_o the_o prelate_n to_o afflict_v themselves_o 26_o no_o presbyter_n to_o be_v ambitious_a neither_o in_o any_o of_o his_o writing_n the_o least_o intimation_n of_o superiority_n of_o one_o presbyter_n over_o another_o same_o save_v only_o where_o he_o name_v diotrephes_n as_o one_o ambitious_o affect_v such_o supremacy_n quaere_fw-la if_o none_o but_o such_o as_o diotrephes_n be_v observe_v in_o scripture_n for_o affect_v supremacy_n and_o superioricy_n and_o if_o one_o presbyter_n can_v be_v find_v affect_v place_n above_o other_o presbyter_n in_o opposition_n to_o bishop_n then_o how_o be_v it_o clear_v that_o a_o presbytery_n may_v be_v supreme_a to_o a_o whole_a church_n or_o congregation_n and_o that_o it_o be_v not_o as_o much_o superiority_n for_o some_o few_o presbyter_n to_o affect_v be_v above_o many_o saint_n together_o in_o one_o church_n as_o for_o one_o in_o name_n or_o office_n as_o a_o bishop_n to_o affect_v place_n above_o another_o in_o name_n or_o office_n as_o a_o presbyter_n and_o so_o episcopacy_n be_v as_o warrantable_a as_o presbytery_n and_o both_o alike_o unwarrantable_a a_o beam_n of_o light_n to_o discover_v a_o way_n to_o the_o peace_n both_o of_o church_n and_o state_n by_o way_n of_o consideration_n consid._n 1._o let_v it_o first_o be_v consider_v where_o the_o great_a obstruction_n lie_v against_o liberty_n or_o teleration_n of_o brethren_n of_o several_a way_n and_o if_o it_o may_v not_o be_v find_v to_o be_v in_o these_o thing_n 1_o a_o take_v the_o whole_a kingdom_n of_o england_n for_o the_o church_n of_o england_n and_o so_o set_v up_o the_o national_a magistracy_n of_o israel_n in_o the_o nation_n now_o as_o it_o be_v then_o which_o how_o it_o may_v be_v warrant_v will_v be_v well_o consider_v 2_o a_o jealousy_n how_o to_o preserve_v the_o present_a ecclesiastical_a interest_n without_o the_o choice_a power_n of_o the_o magistrate_n to_o help_v it_o which_o if_o well_o observe_v make_v it_o appear_v to_o be_v less_o of_o god_n and_o more_o of_o man_n 3_o a_o interpretation_n of_o these_o gospel_n scripture_n which_o concern_v magistracy_n rom._n 13._o 4._o 1_o tim._n 2._o 2._o 1_o pet._n 2._o 13_o 14._o which_o i_o humble_o conceive_v to_o be_v so_o far_o as_o concern_v any_o good_a or_o evil_a either_o of_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n or_o nation_n into_o a_o good_a or_o evil_n pure_o spiritual_a and_o of_o mere_a revelation_n in_o the_o gospel_n as_o thing_n of_o gospel_n light_n and_o mystery_n and_o notion_n of_o heresy_n and_o schism_n be_v this_o latitude_n of_o interpretation_n of_o the_o general_a rule_n in_o the_o gospel_n concerning_o magistracy_n into_o all_o particular_n of_o truth_n and_o heresy_n be_v of_o high_a consideration_n consid._n 2._o let_v it_o be_v consider_v how_o the_o kingdom_n of_o england_n may_v be_v call_v the_o church_n take_v in_o all_o the_o northern_a part_n the_o western_a part_n the_o whole_a nation_n general_o to_o the_o very_a wall_n of_o london_n with_o mr_n marshal_n testimony_n that_o many_o thousand_o nay_o thousand_o of_o thousand_o which_o according_o reckon_v take_v 1640._o up_o almost_o the_o great_a part_n of_o the_o kingdom_n not_o know_v their_o right_a hand_n from_o their_o left_a in_o the_o very_a principle_n of_o the_o doctrine_n of_o christ_n and_o say_v mr_n martial_n no_o land_n can_v be_v esteem_v christ_n kingdom_n where_o the_o preach_n of_o the_o word_n be_v not_o establish_v be_v any_o country_n esteem_v a_o part_n of_o a_o prince_n dominion_n that_o be_v not_o rule_v by_o his_o law_n consid._n 3._o let_v it_o be_v consider_v then_o see_v the_o kingdom_n of_o england_n be_v not_o a_o church_n but_o in_o the_o general_a a_o nation_n baptise_v into_o they_o know_v not_o what_o at_o first_o and_o believe_v general_o they_o know_v not_o in_o who_o ever_o since_o as_o mr_n martial_n whether_o there_o may_v not_o be_v a_o free_a peaceable_a cohabitation_n of_o the_o people_n together_o viz._n of_o those_o call_v presbyterial_a independent_a anabaptist_n enjoy_v their_o several_a way_n of_o practice_n in_o thing_n of_o outward_a cognizance_n and_o order_n as_o baptism_n church_n order_n etc._n etc._n in_o all_o peaceable_a demeanour_n and_o godliness_n as_o well_o in_o this_o spiritual_a variety_n as_o so_o many_o corporation_n county_n division_n army_n and_o several_a company_n in_o that_o their_o civil_a variety_n and_o yet_o in_o all_o a_o civil_a comeliness_n peace_n and_o unity_n consid._n 4._o let_v it_o be_v consider_v whether_o the_o civil_a power_n in_o such_o a_o gospel_n mystery_n as_o presbytery_n be_v and_o the_o way_n of_o baptism_n be_v and_o the_o way_n of_o independency_n be_v may_v not_o with_o more_o lawfulness_n less_o hazard_n of_o sin_n and_o safety_n keep_v off_o or_o suspend_v his_o engagement_n from_o all_o side_n see_v there_o lie_v gospel_n strength_n and_o argument_n on_o all_o side_n and_o walk_v only_o according_a to_o those_o general_a rule_n the_o gospel_n have_v lay_v he_o down_o in_o rom._n 13._o 4._o 1_o tim._n 2._o 2._o 1_o pet._n 2._o 13_o 14_o not_o dare_v to_o draw_v himself_o to_o revenge_v any_o misbelief_n of_o particular_a scripture_n mystery_n force_v either_o side_n either_o for_o presbytery_n ind_o endency_n or_o baptism_n which_o the_o gospel_n have_v nowhere_o warrant_v he_o in_o special_a or_o in_o any_o clear_a consequence_n to_o do_v but_o such_o as_o the_o present_a prevail_v brethren_n draw_v out_o from_o the_o judicial_a law_n of_o moses_n to_o help_v and_o from_o these_o general_a gospel_n rule_n which_o can_v bring_v forth_o but_o a_o opinionative_a justice_n as_o their_o argument_n a_o opinionative_a truth_n or_o presbytery_n and_o whether_o the_o magistrate_n ought_v not_o to_o demand_v a_o more_o clear_a and_o equitable_a rule_n in_o thing_n of_o spiritual_a cognizance_n i_o humble_o present_a to_o be_v consider_v whether_o there_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v a_o certain_a rule_n for_o a_o certain_a justice_n so_o if_o there_o shall_v ever_o be_v a_o proceed_n to_o fine_n imprisonment_n banishment_n the_o divine_n can_v administer_v no_o more_o certain_a ground_n for_o the_o magistrate_n conscience_n than_o such_o as_o they_o have_v for_o their_o own_o which_o be_v but_o probable_a controvertible_a doubtful_a as_o the_o argument_n on_o all_o side_n will_v make_v appear_v consid._n 5._o let_v it_o be_v consider_v whether_o it_o have_v not_o be_v one_o of_o the_o national_a sin_n viz._n make_v law_n against_o all_o other_o form_n but_o what_o it_o do_v establish_v itself_o national_o by_o which_o experience_n have_v tell_v we_o how_o gospel_n truth_n have_v be_v keep_v out_o whole_a generation_n popish_a state_n keep_v out_o protestantism_n and_o prelacy_n keep_v out_o presbytery_n and_o whether_o presbytery_n proceed_v on_o the_o same_o ground_n be_v not_o in_o the_o same_o danger_n of_o sin_n and_o of_o keep_v out_o other_o truth_n and_o whether_o upon_o this_o ground_n any_o gospel_n revelation_n or_o light_n of_o which_o there_o shall_v be_v a_o increase_v every_o day_n 62._o as_o mr_n case_n himself_o preach_v ever_o shall_v come_v into_o this_o nation_n but_o of_o the_o national_a size_n and_o temper_n and_o we_o know_v that_o be_v not_o often_o the_o gospel_n way_n the_o lord_n have_v choose_v the_o weak_a thing_n and_o base_a thing_n 6._o consideration_n let_v it_o be_v consider_v whether_o part_n of_o the_o great_a mystery_n of_o iniquity_n be_v not_o that_o of_o draw_v in_o the_o strength_n of_o the_o nation_n 13._o the_o prince_n of_o the_o earth_n to_o support_v the_o ecclesiastical_a or_o church_n glory_n and_o let_v this_o be_v sad_o consider_v do_v not_o popery_n get_v in_o the_o kingdom_n of_o the_o world_n to_o support_v itself_o ●id_v not_o prelacy_n stand_v by_o the_o same_o power_n do_v not_o presbytery_n hold_v itself_o by_o the_o same_o strength_n of_o magistrate_n be_v not_o the_o same_o iron_n rod_n and_o scourge_n of_o steel_n
convey_v over_o from_o one_o of_o they_o to_o the_o other_o do_v not_o the_o pope_n whip_v the_o protestant_a with_o fine_n imprisonment_n and_o the_o prelate_n take_v the_o rod_n our_o of_o his_o hand_n and_o whip_v the_o nonconformist_n and_o the_o nonconformist_n or_o presbyter_n take_v the_o same_o rod_n out_o of_o the_o prelate_n hand_n and_o scourge_v those_o that_o be_v non-conformist_n to_o he_o consid._n 7._o let_v it_o be_v well_o consider_v whether_o the_o design_n of_o the_o national_a ministry_n ever_o since_o the_o first_o work_n of_o it_o upon_o the_o magi●●rates_n have_v not_o a_o design_n for_o strengthen_v their_o own_o interest_n by_o the_o magistracy_n of_o the_o kingdom_n and_o how_o have_v kingdom_n be_v embroil_v for_o the_o serve_n of_o this_o design_n and_o whether_o be_v not_o this_o guild_v with_o the_o glorious_a name_n of_o reformation_n consid._n 8._o let_v it_o be_v consider_v from_o the_o several_a way_n and_o form_n of_o proceed_v in_o which_o the_o believer_n of_o several_a opinion_n have_v go_v in_o these_o time_n to_o support_v themselves_o which_o stand_v most_o on_o a_o pure_a gospel_n spiritual_a bottom_n support_v by_o its_o own_o innate_a congenial_a and_o proper_a strength_n clasp_v about_o no_o stone_n no_o pillar_n of_o the_o world_n or_o human_a strength_n consid._n 9_o let_v it_o be_v consider_v whether_o the_o whole_a cry_n of_o the_o divine_n of_o the_o other_o party_n as_o in_o the_o late_a book_n be_v not_o all_o to_o the_o magistrate_n gangrena_fw-la help_v we_o parliament_n help_v we_o city_n or_o we_o be_v undo_v the_o heresy_n and_o sect_n will_v undo_v we_o what_o say_v ezra_n i_o be_v ashamed_a say_v he_o to_o require_v of_o the_o king_n a_o army_n and_o horseman_n to_o help_v we_o against_o the_o enemy_n in_o the_o way_n 22._o because_o we_o have_v say_v the_o hand_n of_o our_o god_n be_v upon_o all_o they_o that_o seek_v he_o consid._n 10._o let_v it_o be_v consider_v whether_o they_o who_o he_o call_v heretic_n and_o schismatic_n make_v it_o one_o of_o their_o choice_a principle_n to_o desire_v the_o magistrate_n to_o help_v their_o opinion_n with_o their_o prison_n fine_n pillory_n but_o rather_o that_o they_o will_v let_v they_o alone_o to_o stand_v and_o fall_v by_o the_o power_n or_o weakness_n of_o their_o gospel_n principle_n and_o that_o they_o may_v have_v liberty_n to_o pray_v for_o they_o pay_v to_o they_o and_o possess_v the_o gospel_n each_o opinion_n state_v brief_o respective_o to_o toleration_n let_v it_o be_v consider_v to_o what_o each_o pretend_a heresy_n will_v amount_v to_o independency_n independent_n believe_v that_o since_o the_o parish_n be_v so_o general_o corrupt_v the_o church_n ought_v to_o consist_v of_o those_o of_o they_o only_o that_o profess_v more_o pure_o as_o they_o find_v scripture_n rule_n and_o practice_n and_o as_o the_o presbyteriant_n themselves_o many_o of_o they_o practice_n in_o some_o ordinance_n as_o that_o of_o baptisme●nd_v the_o supper_n give_v they_o only_o to_o the_o pure_a believer_n they_o also_o believe_v that_o they_o ought_v not_o by_o a_o few_o minister_n and_o elder_n of_o the_o church_n to_o bring_v all_o the_o church_n and_o congregation_n under_o their_o power_n and_o dominion_n but_o rather_o under_o their_o advice_n and_o consultation_n quaere_fw-la because_o then_o they_o practice_n to_o meet_v more_o pure_o and_o to_o rule_v less_o one_o over_o another_o whether_o be_v this_o enough_o that_o they_o shall_v be_v fine_v imprison_a banish_v the_o anabaptist_n the_o anabaptist_n so_o call_v they_o hold_v that_o believer_n ought_v only_o to_o be_v baptise_v and_o that_o baptism_n ought_v to_o be_v so_o for_o the_o manner_n as_o may_v set_v forth_o christ_n death_n burial_n and_o resurrection_n by_o water_n as_o the_o greek_a word_n and_o apostle_n practice_n seem_v to_o imply_v sum_n and_o some_o of_o the_o able_a divine_v both_o of_o england_n and_o the_o great_a adversary_n the_o papist_n themselves_o deny_v not_o and_o for_o child_n they_o read_v of_o none_o the_o apostle_n baptise_v and_o they_o see_v not_o any_o scripture_n clear_a enough_o to_o warrant_v and_o they_o therefore_o forbear_v quaere_fw-la because_o they_o will_v not_o practice_v than_o what_o be_v not_o clear_a in_o command_n and_o confess_v by_o all_o to_o be_v but_o in_o hide_a consequence_n because_o they_o baptise_v as_o they_o find_v the_o clear_a rule_n and_o practice_n and_o as_o none_o can_v deny_v but_o it_o be_v the_o apostle_n general_a practice_n to_o baptise_v believer_n therefore_o whither_o be_v this_o enough_o that_o they_o shall_v be_v fine_v imprison_v banish_v the_o seeker_n seeker_n some_o of_o they_o question_n only_o the_o way_n of_o church_n and_o ordinance_n as_o of_o baptism_n etc._n etc._n because_o they_o find_v that_o the_o power_n be_v at_o first_o give_v to_o the_o apostle_n with_o gift_n and_o from_o they_o to_o other_o and_o they_o dare_v not_o take_v it_o from_o antichrist_n and_o the_o bishop_n as_o the_o reform_a kingdom_n general_o take_v it_o nor_o from_o the_o church_n because_o they_o find_v no_o such_o power_n begin_v from_o the_o church_n but_o only_o of_o choice_n or_o consent_n not_o of_o power_n nor_o church_n begin_v before_o apostle_n or_o disciple_n with_o gift_n quaere_fw-la whither_o then_o be_v this_o enough_o because_o they_o conceive_v they_o dare_v not_o take_v ordinance_n but_o from_o such_o and_o in_o such_o a_o manner_n as_o be_v give_v at_o first_o to_o fine_v imprison_v or_o banish_v they_o a_o model_n or_o short_a draught_n of_o the_o whole_a difference_n betwixt_o the_o divine_n for_o the_o presbytery_n and_o they_o of_o the_o other_o way_n respective_o to_o the_o magistrate_n or_o state_n draw_v from_o the_o late_a book_n and_o practice_n of_o both_o party_n in_o a_o petitionary_a way_n they_o of_o the_o presbytery_n to_o the_o magistrate_n or_o state_n we_o humble_o petition_v you_o that_o heretic_n and_o 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