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england_n book_n church_n time_n 2,893 5 3.6141 3 false
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A12592 A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie. Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them. 1588 (1588) STC 22909; ESTC S117654 118,250 200

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fufficiencie_n of_o gift_n and_o willingness_n to_o practice_v they_o pag._n 45._o if_o m._n penry_n mean_v the_o practice_n of_o gift_n to_o god_n glory_n i_o say_v amen_o unto_o it_o i_o confess_v that_o they_o of_o philippos_n have_v gift_n in_o some_o measure_n but_o they_o have_v not_o willingness_n to_o practice_v those_o gift_n to_o god_n glory_n which_o willingness_n etc._n etc._n be_v one_o of_o the_o necessary_a branch_n of_o a_o inward_a call_n that_o they_o of_o philippos_n have_v not_o this_o willingness_n etc._n etc._n it_o be_v manifest_a for_o they_o seek_v themselves_o and_o practise_v their_o gift_n whole_o to_o increase_v the_o apostle_n affliction_n last_o if_o your_o antecedent_n be_v true_a what_o say_v you_o to_o this_o proposition_n they_o of_o who_o magistracy_n there_o be_v a_o nullity_n before_o god_n though_o they_o have_v a_o outward_a call_n ought_v not_o to_o be_v account_v magistrate_n do_v you_o not_o think_v this_o proposition_n to_o be_v very_o 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be_v that_o the_o sacrament_n be_v administer_v better_a by_o a_o good_a then_o by_o a_o bad_a minister_n yet_o that_o the_o sacrament_n of_o themselves_o be_v true_a and_o holy_a etc._n etc._n by_o what_o minister_n soever_o they_o be_v deliver_v etc._n etc._n if_o any_o shall_v ask_v i_o whether_o it_o be_v lawful_a to_o omit_v the_o partake_n of_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n in_o such_o church_n over_o which_o ignorant_a minister_n be_v set_v and_o to_o present_v ourselves_o and_o our_o infant_n to_o the_o holy_a sacrament_n in_o other_o church_n my_o answer_n be_v that_o i_o refer_v they_o to_o the_o magistrate_n and_o governor_n of_o our_o church_n etc._n etc._n nothing_o be_v answer_v to_o this_o a_o objection_n of_o a_o fantastical_a body_n by_o who_o a_o thing_n ought_v not_o to_o be_v deliver_v by_o another_o it_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v receive_v but_o ignorant_a minister_n ought_v nor_o to_o deliver_v the_o sacrament_n therefore_o etc._n etc._n r._n some_o the_o mayor_n be_v false_a my_o reason_n be_v a_o evil_a man_n ought_v not_o to_o deliver_v the_o word_n of_o god_n but_o we_o ought_v to_o receive_v it_o a_o evil_a man_n ought_v not_o to_o give_v alm_n but_o a_o poor_a man_n may_v receive_v it_o a_o absurd_a minister_n ought_v not_o to_o deliver_v the_o sacrament_n but_o they_o be_v not_o pollute_v which_o receive_v it_o i._o penry_n the_o objection_n concern_v the_o giver_n and_o the_o receiver_n be_v never_o i_o i_o can_v turn_v it_o against_o you_o but_o i_o must_v be_v brief_a r._n some_o it_o be_v not_o you_o i_o confess_v i_o do_v not_o charge_v you_o with_o it_o it_o be_v a_o other_o man_n you_o must_v give_v some_o other_o man_n leave_v to_o make_v fond_a argument_n as_o well_o as_o yourself_o you_o can_v turn_v it_o you_o say_v against_o i_o you_o be_v one_o of_o the_o strange_a turner_n that_o ever_o i_o know_v you_o have_v turn_v out_o such_o a_o deal_n of_o gross_a divinity_n upon_o i_o and_o other_o that_o we_o be_v weary_a and_o you_o may_v be_v ashamed_a of_o it_o chap._n 10._o i._o penry_n the_o godly_a do_v sin_n which_o do_v communicate_v with_o unpreach_v minister_n reason_n because_o they_o communicate_v with_o those_o who_o be_v no_o minister_n r._n some_o you_o have_v be_v liberal_a in_o charge_v i_o to_o beg_v the_o question_n it_o be_v your_o fault_n in_o this_o place_n you_o affirm_v that_o unpreach_a minister_n be_v no_o minister_n i_o deny_v it_o it_o be_v very_o strange_a to_o i_o that_o you_o will_v account_v ignorant_a levitical_a priest_n lawful_a priest_n and_o deny_v unpreach_v minister_n to_o have_v any_o call_n if_o you_o be_v indifferent_a you_o will_v serve_v they_o both_o alike_o i._o penry_n they_o can_v be_v assure_v to_o receive_v a_o sacrament_n at_o their_o hand_n r._n some_o yourself_o deny_v not_o that_o they_o be_v the_o sacrament_n which_o be_v deliver_v by_o unpreach_v minister_n if_o they_o be_v the_o sacrament_n which_o be_v administer_v i_o be_o sure_a first_o that_o they_o be_v the_o sacrament_n which_o be_v receive_v second_o that_o they_o have_v a_o call_n which_o do_v administer_v they_o beside_o the_o ignorance_n of_o the_o minister_n can_v pollute_v the_o godly_a receiver_n i._o penry_n they_o do_v not_o examine_v themselves_o aright_o &_o so_o be_v not_o worthy_a receiver_n 1._o
be_v very_o like_a that_o you_o have_v forget_v it_o such_o trifle_n be_v too_o base_a for_o your_o great_a spirit_n your_o second_o reason_n be_v the_o corrupt_a approbation_n of_o unpreach_v minister_n so_o you_o name_v the_o best_a outward_a calling_n they_o can_v have_v of_o the_o church_n be_v not_o so_o forcible_a to_o make_v they_o minister_n as_o be_v the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n to_o make_v the_o son_n of_o aaron_n sacrifice_v at_o jerusalem_fw-la to_o be_v priest_n therefore_o a_o argument_n from_o the_o leviticall_a priesthood_n be_v not_o forcible_a for_o unpreach_v minister_n my_o answer_n be_v i_o deny_v your_o antecedent_n and_o do_v add_v this_o first_o that_o it_o be_v as_o lawful_a that_o be_v to_o say_v utter_o unlawful_a to_o make_v unfit_a minister_n now_o as_o it_o be_v before_o to_o make_v unfit_a priest_n second_o that_o it_o be_v not_o god_n pleasure_n that_o all_o the_o posterity_n of_o aaron_n without_o exception_n that_o be_v tag_n and_o rag_n shall_v be_v admit_v to_o the_o holy_a priesthood_n for_o neither_o you_o nor_o any_o man_n alive_a may_v reason_v thus_o the_o leviticall_a priesthood_n must_v rest_v in_o the_o tribe_n of_o levi_n therefore_o every_o one_o of_o that_o tribe_n though_o unfit_a for_o that_o holy_a function_n be_v to_o be_v admit_v to_o the_o priesthood_n you_o may_v very_o sound_o have_v dispute_v thus_o the_o leviticall_a priesthood_n must_v be_v keep_v within_o the_o compass_n of_o the_o tribe_n of_o levi_n by_o god_n express_a commandment_n num._n 3._o therefore_o no_o stranger_n may_v come_v near_o the_o lord_n altar_n you_o call_v the_o best_a outward_a call_n in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n a_o corrupt_a approbation_n if_o you_o mean_v it_o be_v corrupt_v in_o admit_v ignorant_a man_n to_o the_o holy_a ministry_n so_o be_v the_o ordain_v of_o ignorant_a levite_n at_o jerusalem_n if_o you_o mean_v that_o the_o best_a outward_a call_n in_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v simple_o corrupt_a that_o be_v none_o at_o all_o though_o sufficient_a man_n be_v admit_v i_o detest_v your_o anabaptistical_n fancy_n for_o then_o the_o worthy_a divine_n in_o this_o land_n be_v no_o minister_n beside_o it_o be_v confess_v of_o all_o famous_a &_o learned_a man_n that_o god_n church_n be_v not_o necessary_o tie_v in_o all_o place_n and_o time_n to_o one_o form_n in_o the_o external_a call_n of_o the_o minister_n chap._n 12._o i._o penry_n the_o corrupt_a allowance_n of_o the_o church_n can_v make_v our_o reader_n to_o be_v substantial_a minister_n for_o so_o all_o man_n &_o woman_n without_o or_o within_o the_o church_n may_v be_v capable_a of_o the_o ministry_n because_o all_o may_v be_v capable_a of_o this_o outward_a allowance_n second_o and_o particular_o a_o man_n not_o furnish_v with_o natural_a capacity_n three_o a_o man_n that_o can_v not_o read_v though_o he_o want_v also_o the_o gift_n of_o interpretation_n for_o such_o a_o one_o may_v recite_v the_o liturgy_n without_o the_o book_n four_o the_o church_n may_v make_v a_o man_n minister_n against_o his_o will_n though_o he_o shall_v never_o consent_v thereunto_o and_o this_o be_v the_o willingness_n that_o i_o mean_v when_o i_o say_v that_o the_o inward_a call_n be_v contain_v in_o the_o sufficiency_n of_o gift_n and_o willingness_n to_o practice_v which_o willingness_n i_o gather_v upon_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d and_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d use_v of_o the_o apostle_n 1._o tim._n 3.1_o your_o reason_n therefore_o from_o the_o malicious_a philippian_n minister_n touch_v not_o the_o question_n thus_o caiphas_n with_o his_o crew_n of_o unworthy_a and_o monstrous_a priest_n who_o within_o a_o few_o page_n in_o your_o book_n have_v impudent_o so_o often_o trouble_v the_o reader_n be_v answer_v and_o i_o think_v it_o a_o great_a judgement_n of_o god_n that_o the_o ornament_n of_o our_o english_a and_o welsh_a ministry_n for_o the_o most_o part_n consist_v in_o the_o deformity_n of_o such_o loathsome_a spot_n r._n some_o if_o by_o substantial_a minister_n you_o mean_v such_o as_o be_v furnish_v with_o gift_n in_o good_a measure_n it_o be_v the_o peculiar_a office_n of_o god_n to_o make_v such_o either_o miraculous_o as_o he_o do_v the_o prophet_n and_o many_o in_o the_o primitive_a church_n or_o by_o blessing_n man_n godly_a study_n as_o in_o late_a and_o our_o time_n it_o pass_v the_o church_n reach_n by_o any_o external_a calling_n to_o make_v man_n furnish_v minister_n which_o before_o the_o external_a allowance_n be_v not_o furnish_v by_o god_n himself_o therefore_o to_o be_v of_o the_o line_n of_o aaron_n do_v make_v the_o ignorant_a levites_n no_o more_o to_o be_v substantial_a priest_n than_o the_o external_a call_n now_o do_v make_v ignorant_a man_n to_o be_v substantial_a minister_n the_o sum_n of_o your_o reason_n may_v be_v shut_v up_o brief_o in_o this_o argument_n all_o may_v be_v capable_a as_o you_o say_v of_o the_o outward_a allowance_n therefore_o the_o outward_a call_n of_o the_o church_n make_v not_o a_o minister_n to_o we_o unless_o he_o have_v the_o inward_a your_o antecedent_n be_v a_o special_a one_o if_o you_o be_v not_o strange_o carry_v some_o branch_n of_o it_o may_v have_v be_v keep_v in_o i_o trust_v you_o do_v not_o condemn_v a_o prescript_n liturgy_n in_o the_o church_n of_o god_n if_o you_o do_v all_o the_o reform_a church_n dissent_v from_o you_o and_o their_o practice_n do_v apparent_o confute_v you_o but_o i_o leave_v that_o and_o deny_v your_o argument_n my_o reason_n be_v first_o the_o ignorant_a levite_n have_v a_o outward_a call_n but_o not_o a_o inward_a yet_o they_o be_v lawful_a priest_n by_o your_o own_o confession_n second_o judas_n be_v call_v outward_o but_o not_o inward_o yet_o he_o be_v a_o apostle_n last_o the_o apostle_n charge_v timothee_n not_o to_o lay_v hand_n rash_o on_o any_o 1._o tim._n 5._o therefore_o the_o outward_a allowance_n be_v more_o than_o you_o account_n of_o my_o reason_n from_o the_o contentious_a minister_n of_o philippi_n etc._n etc._n be_v a_o very_a sure_a one_o &_o do_v overthrow_v your_o fancy_n because_o you_o can_v answer_v it_o you_o tell_v i_o it_o touch_v not_o the_o question_n a_o brief_a kind_n of_o answer_v caiphas_n and_o the_o leviticall_a priest_n have_v be_v allege_v no_o otherwise_o by_o i_o then_o by_o those_o worthy_a man_n caluine_n beza_n etc._n etc._n before_o i_o the_o mention_n of_o they_o have_v not_o trouble_v the_o godly_a reader_n at_o all_o therefore_o not_o impudent_o as_o you_o give_v out_o very_o saucy_o i_o perceive_v they_o have_v distemper_v you_o for_o in_o stead_n of_o answer_v my_o argument_n you_o exclaim_v upon_o they_o your_o gift_n in_o answer_v be_v very_o rare_a you_o make_v wash-way_n of_o the_o weighty_a argument_n unto_o the_o loathsome_a spot_n in_o the_o english_a and_o welsh_a ministry_n god_n grant_v either_o sovereign_a medicine_n to_o cure_v they_o or_o sound_v expulsion_n to_o remove_v they_o r._n some_o last_o if_o your_o antecedent_n be_v true_a viz._n that_o they_o of_o who_o ministry_n there_o be_v a_o nullity_n before_o god_n although_o they_o have_v a_o outward_a call_n ought_v not_o to_o be_v account_v minister_n what_o say_v you_o to_o this_o proposition_n they_o of_o who_o magistracy_n there_o be_v a_o nullity_n before_o god_n though_o they_o have_v a_o outward_a call_n ought_v not_o to_o be_v account_v magistrate_n do_v you_o not_o think_v this_o proposition_n to_o be_v very_o dangerous_a i_o can_v press_v and_o follow_v this_o very_o far_o but_o i_o abstain_v of_o purpose_n i._o penry_n you_o demand_v what_o i_o think_v of_o this_o proposition_n sure_o my_o judgement_n be_v that_o it_o be_v altogether_o without_o sense_n and_o overthrow_v itself_o for_o it_o be_v as_o if_o you_o say_v he_o of_o who_o faith_n there_o be_v a_o nullity_n before_o god_n though_o he_o be_v assure_v of_o his_o salvation_n be_v not_o to_o be_v account_v a_o faithful_a man_n why_o to_o be_v assure_v of_o salvation_n and_o to_o have_v a_o nullity_n of_o faith_n before_o god_n can_v not_o stand_v together_o no_o more_o can_v the_o outward_a call_n of_o the_o magistracy_n stand_v with_o the_o nullity_n thereof_o for_o the_o outward_a call_n make_v a_o substantial_a magistrate_n but_o m._n some_o where_o be_v that_o reason_n which_o you_o can_v press_v so_o far_o be_v this_o it_o they_o of_o who_o magistracy_n there_o be_v a_o nullity_n before_o god_n ought_v not_o to_o be_v account_v magistrate_n i_o say_v your_o proposition_n be_v true_a assume_v what_o you_o will_v you_o know_v what_o manner_n of_o nullity_n i_o mean_v r._n some_o my_o proposition_n in_o your_o judgement_n be_v without_o sense_n you_o be_v very_o peremptory_a a_o word_n i_o perceive_v and_o a_o blow_n i_o may_v say_v true_o that_o your_o answer_n be_v without_o sense_n