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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A23611	A defence of true Protestants, abused for the service of popery, under the name of Presbyterians in a dialogue between A. and L. two sons of the church : where it is debated, whether discenting Presbyterians be as bad or worse than papists : and other popish assertions are detected.		1680 (1680)	Wing A1; ESTC R21360	17,633	34

and invariable whereas that may be such in England which is not in France and that such in Germany or Poland which is not so in England and that so in one part of the King of Spain's Dominions which is not so in another However there needs no other Answer for the German Writers than that of Bishop Bilson whom your cloaked Author Cites Diverse times as tho he favour'd him (m) Christian Subjection Pag. 513. In Germany the Emperour himself hath his Bounds appointed him which he may not pass by the Laws of the Empire and the Princes Dukes and Cities that are under him have Power to Govern and use the Sword as Gods Ministers in their Charges and though for the Maintenance of the Emperiour they be Subject to such Orders as shall be Decreed c. Yet if he touch their Polices infring their Liberties or violate their Specialities which he by Oath and Order of the Empire is bound to keep they may Lawfully Resist him and by Force Reduce him to the Antient and received form of Government or else Repel him as a Tyrant and set another in his place by the Right and Freedom of their Countrey Therefore the German's doings or writings can help you little in this Question they speak according to the Laws and Rights of the Empire themselves being a very Free State and bearing the Sword as Lawfull Magestrates to defend their Liberties and prohibit Injury against all Oppressors the Emperour himself not excepted But not to digress further Who else can you produce L. I will trouble you with no more at present A. I am apt to belive that if the Persons you are so bitter against were not loath to expose our Religion as others do they might alledge out of the most eminent Prelatists such Passages as look with as ill an Aspect upon the Civil Government as any other of the Reformed Divines you can produce And if they should do this by way of recimination as you provoke them to do it would you think it reasonable from two or three Instances to conclude that all the Episcopal Divines are worse than Papists And yet there is neither more Reason nor more Honesty in the one than in the other L. I should not think so ill of Presbyterian Principles upon the report of Papists only but they are ill represented by some Protestants A. It may be so but by none that I have seen save such as take pleasure to lick up the Papists Vommit and Spue it out again upon the Reformed Religion after all hath been clean wiped off by those that are Protestants indeed and that with as little regard of Truth or Modesty as the Papists shew when they tell us That the cheif Protestans Bishops and Churchmen did all that lay in their Power to exclude Mary their Lawfull Queen from the Throne (n) Parsons mitigation Pag. 224 The Jesuit names Cranmer Ridley Latimer Sands Jewel Hooper (o) Pag. 123. c. And affirms that the Bishops and all the cheif Protestant Ministers did concur in the Duke of Northumberlands Rebellion (p) Sober Reckoning Pag. 253. And that Bishops and Ministers had as deeply their hearts and hands and heads in the Rebellion of Wyat and the Duke of Suffolk and much more than in the former Rebellion (q) Ibid Pag. 254. That it was the consent of these and the chiefest Protestant Bishops and Divines that Queen Mary might be deposed and not only she but her Sister Queen Elizabeth a Protestant which was put in practice to the utmost of the Protestants power both with Wit and Weapons and this not only against the Statutes of the Kingdom but their own Oath to the Lady Mary in her Father's Life (r) Idem Mod. ans Cap. 3. in Mort. full Satisfact Pag. 200. The like saies he the Protestant Forces and Parliaments did against the Succession of Queen Elizabeth (s) Ibid. Pag. 4. Many Nobles with the whole Clergy are Charged with publick and Dogmatical Positions and Practices of Rebellion against not only God and their Queen but Oaths of Fidelity to Harry the 8th (t) Pag. 9. He tells us also that they do not now profess these Positions because they are not under Princes that press them in matters against their Will but that they would fall to them again if they were Pinched as others are (u) Mitigation Pag. 117. Nay they are bold to invoulve our Princes and State in the guilt of Rebellion as they will call them in Scotland France the Neither Lands c. as having their cheif encouragement and supports from our Princes and Parliaments (a) Ibid. P. 44. L. All this hath been fully vindicated long since A. And so has Cabvin Beza and others of the Reformed Churches and that by the same Hands But there are a sort of Protestants of a Latter Edition who have little of Protestants but the Name and seem to have crowded what Religion they have into some few things wherein we agree with the Papists making little or nothing of most of the Differences betwixt us and these not admitting the Defence made for the latter will be obliged to reject that made for the other Accordingly some of them have made it their business to rake up all the Dirt which the Papists could help them to how clean so ever removed by our Champions against the Romanists and would overwhelm and bury the Protestants Religion under it pretending that they design only a Grave for the Presbyterians L. But if the Principles of the Presbyterians be so innocent and such as the best of our former Bishops did approve yet certainly some of their Practices cannot be justifyed A. No nor all the Practices of any sort of Men on Earth how good soever their Principles be so long as they are but Men and have Depraved Natures and are liable to Mistakes and sensible of Interest and Danger and exposed to Temptation You will count it highly unjust and unreasonable to charge a whole Community consisting of some Millions with the Odious Act of a sew in Comparison when they generally declare against it and own no Principle that may encourage it And the Iniquity will be greater if it be a rare Act far from a common Practice especially if they fall into it upon a Mistake that the Laws and Constitutions of the Government allow it If this be the Case are not the Protestants most injuriously used Would it not be counted intolerable for any to brand the Church of England as a Company of Rebels and Traytors against God because there are some in her Communion who live in such open Wickedness as is counted Rebellion against the Most High Especially if they were but few under such Guilt and that very seldome when as our Church declares against and disclaimes all Principles that would countenance it Would it not be unsufferable to censure all our Kings for Tyrants because some of them have acted Tyrannically in one

is saies he that the truth in these Opinions not being so generally entertain'd among the Clergy nor the Arch-Bishop and the greater part of the Prelates so inclinable to them as to venture the determining of these Points to a Convocation How far then were these Opinions from being counted the Doctrine of our Church when there was no expectation that they would be accounted Truths by our Church representative Sure they act more agreeably to the sense of the Church of England thus far who reject these Arminian Tenets then they who embrace them L. But though the Presbyterians hold all the points of the Protestant Religion yet they maintain other Opinions besides such as are pernicious to Civel Government and Secular Princes upon this account they may be said to be worse than Papists their Principles of this nature being more dangerous A. I have heard some such thing said diverse times but I must do them this right as to declare that I never saw it proved nor ever expect it Upon a strict Inquiry I find their principles about Civel Government to be no other than what the eminentest of our Prelates and learned Divines such as Bishop Jewel Mr. Hooker Bishop Bilson Bishop Morton c. have owned or defended so far is it from being true that their opinions herein are as bad or worse than the Papists And they may challenge all the Papists in England masqued and unmasqued to make it good from the Writings of any considerable Divines approved by those of that Denomination But that you may have a more particular satisfaction let us take a view of some Popish Principles respecting Civel Government and Humane Societies some wherein we are particularly concerned and then compare them with those charged on the Presbyterians by their bitterest enemies They hold That all Protestants are Hereticks and as such excommunicated and accursed That no sort of Protestant Magistrates or others have any just Title to Estate Liberty or Honour but may lawfully be stript of all That they ought to be put to death and burnt alive when they are in their Power That when they can't proceed judicially against them they ought to destroy them by open Wars and Massacres or Assassinations That all Lawes Divine and Humane will have them destroyed That it is not only lawful but a Pious and Meritorious Act to slaughter them That it is no more sin to kill them than to kill a Wolf or a Dog That by what obligations soever either of Kindred Friendship Loyalty or Subjection they be bound unto them they may or rather must take Arms against them being Hereticks and then must they take them to be Hereticks when their lawful Popes adjudge them to be so That those who will not promote the Catholick Interest by Warrs and Arms ought to be proscribed and a Reward proclaimed to those that kill them That they are worser than Turks and that it is more just and necessary to exterminate them by force of Arms than to overcome the Turks That no Peace is to be made no Commerce to be kept with them That no Faith is to be kept with them though confirm'd with Oaths That a forreign Bishops is supream Governour of these Dominions in all matters Ecclesiastick and in temopral matters also in order to Spiritual Concerns That England is the Popes Kingdom and the King of England is the Popes Subject even in Temporals and holds his Dominions of him in Fee That no Maegistrate among us hath any Jurisdicton That they are not obliged to Answer their Interrogatories nor owe them any more reverence or subjection than to meer private Persons That they may delude them with Equivocations in Assertions or Oaths and may usesuch Equivocations when they are sworn before the Magistrate not to Equivocate That it is no Mortal Sin to Charge false Crimes upon or bear False Witness against any in their own Defence That it is no Sin to kill those who go about to discover the Crimes they are guilty of That Bishops are not the Subjects of Secular Princes That they cannot be Guilty of Treason That Churchmen are exempted from all Jurisdiction of Civel Magistrates That the Pope may exempt Lay-men as well as the Clergy That no Protestants Nobles or Commons can be Members of Parliament That Laws not agreeable to the Roman Decrees are of no moment That since a Wife owes no Conjugal Duty to an Husband who is not a Papist nor a Slave any Service to his Master and Parents loose the Superiority and Dominion which they have by the Law of Nature over their Children therefore no man should wonder that in the like case a Soveraign should loose his Superiority and Right over his People and Kingdomes That the Pope may command the King's Subjects not to Obey him That he may Compel them into Rebellion That he can absolve Subjects from the Oaths of Allegiance and Obedience to their Prince and the Princes from Oaths Oblieging them to their Subjects That an Heretical or Protestant King is no King That he is a Tyrant and Usurper and may be used accordingly That to acknowledge such a King is to advance a Dog to be Soveraign over Men. That he hath no real Majesty or Soveraignty That no Treason can be committed against him That he can enact no Laws nor is capable of any Acts of Sovereignty That Acts of Jurisdiction done by his Authority are Void and Null by the Law of God and Man That no War can lawfully be denounced or waged by him though the Cause be never so just That no Leagues Treaties Confederacies for his advantage as a Heretick however confirmed do obliege Catholicks That they may lawfully betray their Trust and deliver up to the Enemy what their Prince commits to their Charge Garrisons Troops Magazines Treasure c. That a Prince falling from Popery looseth all his Authority and Dignity even before Sentence That after Sentence no Man can lawfully Serve or give Aid unto such a Prince That he not only may lawfully but ought in Conscience to be Dethroned Subjects being bound to it by the Divine Precept and upon their Salvation That it is the Subjects Duty to take up Arms against him That the Pope may Depose a King not only for Heresy or Tyranny or Sacriledge or Perjury or Breach of Promise or Effeminacy or any of these many Faults which are liable to Excommunications but also for favouring Heriticks or tolerating Schismaticks or for Profuseness in spending the Publick Treasure yea or for Ignorance or Negligence or Insufficiency or Weakness of Mind or Body That if a Prince be never so well qualified for Religion or other Accomplishments the Pope may Dethrone him if his Holiness think it but Expedient Nay he may do it without any Cause and dispose of his Kingdom as he lists That if Princes be Protestants he hath as much Right to throw them out of their Thrones as we have to drive away Wolves or Mad Dogs or Wild Asses That