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A93120 An argument of lavv concerning the bill of attainder of high-treason of Thomas Earle of Strafford at a conference in a committee of both Houses of Parliament. By Mr. St. John his Majesties Solicitor Generall. Published by order of the Commons House. St. John, Oliver, 1598?-1673. 1641 (1641) Wing S321; ESTC R203496 35,970 52

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being asked by those he spake to how he durst maintaine so bloody an assertion he answered that the matter was not so haynous as was supposed for the King who is the lesser is concluded by the Pope who is the greater and as a Malefactor being condemned before a Temporall Judge may bee delivered over to bee Executed so the King standing convicted by the Popes sentence of excommunication may justly be slaughtered without fault for the killing of the King is the execution of the Popes supreame sentence as the other is the execution of the Law for this judgement of High Treason was given against him and execution done My Lords here is no cleere intent appearing that Owen desired the thing should bee done only Arguments that it might be done This is a compassing there is a cleere Endeavour to corrupt the judgement to take off the bonds of conscience the greatest security of the Kings life God forbid saith one of better judgement than he That I should stretch out my hand against the Lords annointed no saith he the Lord doth not forbid it you may for these reasons lawfully kill the King Hee that denies the Title to the Crown and plots the meanes of setting it upon another head may doe this without any direct or immediate desiring the death of him that then weares it yet this is Treason as was adjudged in 10. Henry 7. in the case of Burton and in the Duke of Norfolks case 13. Elizabeth This is a compassing of his death for there can no more be two Kings in one Kingdome than two Suns in the Firmament he that conceives a title counts it worth ventring for though it cost him his life he that is in possession thinks it as well worth the keeping Iohn Sparhauke in King Henry the fourths time meeting two men upon the way amongst other talk said that the King was not rightfull King but the Earle of March and that the Pope would grant indulgencies to all that would assist the Earles title and that within halfe a yeree there would be no Liveries nor Conizances of the King that the King had not kept promise with the people but had layd taxes upon them In Easter Terme in the third yeere of Henry the fourth in the Kings Bench Rot. 12. this adjudged Treason This denying the title with motives though but implyedly of Action against it adjudged Treason this is a compassing the Kings death How this was a compassing the Kings death is declared in the reasons of the judgement That the words were spoken with an intent to withdraw the affections of the people from the King and to excite them against the King that in the end they might rise up against him in mortem destructionem of the King My Lords in this Judgement and others which I shall cite to your Lordships It appeares that it is a compassing the Kings death by words to indeavour to draw the peoples hearts from the King to set discord betweene the King and them whereby the people should leave the King should rise up against him to the death and destruction of the King The cases that I shall cite prove not onely that this is Treason but what is sufficient evidence to make this good Upon a Commission held the 18. yeere of Edw. 4. in Kent before the Marquesse of Dorset and others an Inditement was preferred against John Awater of High-Treason in the forme before mentioned for words which are entred in the enditement sub hac forma That he had beene servant to the Earle of Warwicke that though he were dead the Earle of Oxford was alive and should have the government of part of the Countrey That Edward whom you call King of England was a false man and had by art and subtlety slaine the Earle of Warwicke and the Duke of Clarence his brother without any cause who before had beene both of them attainted of High-Treason My Lords this Inditement was returned into the Kings Bench in Trinity Tearme in the eighteenth yeere of Edward the fourth and in Easter Tearme in the two and twentieth yeere of Edward the fourth he was outlawed by the stay of the outlawry so long it seemes the Judges had well advised before whether it were Treason or not At the same Session Thomas Hober was indited of Treason for these words That the last Parliament was the most simple and insufficient Parliament that ever had beene in England That the King was gone to live in Kent because that for the present he had not the love of the Citizens of London nor should he have it for the future That if the Bishop of Bath and Wels were dead the Archbishop of Canterbury being Cardinall of England would immediately lose his head This inditement was returned into the Kings Bench in Trinity Tearme in the eighteenth yeere of Edward the fourth Afterwards there came a Privy Seale to the Judges to respit the proceedings which as it should seeme was to the intent the Judges might advise of the Case for afterwards he is outlawed of high-Treason upon this inditement These words were thought sufficient evidence to prove these severall Inditements That they were spoken to withdraw the peoples affection from the King to excite them against him to cause risings against him by the people in mortem destructionem of the King Your Lordships are pleased to consider that in all these Cases the Treason was for words onely words by private persons and in a more private manner but once spoken and no more onely amongst the people to excite them against the King My Lords here are words Counsels more than words and actions too not onely to dis-affect the people to the King but the King likewise towards the people not once but often not in private but in places most publique not by a private person but by a Counsellor of State a Lord Lieutenant a Lord President a Lord Deputy of Ireland 1 To his Majesty That the Parliament had denied to supply him a slander upon all the Commons of England in their affections to the King and Kingdome in refusing to yeeld timely supply for the necessities of King and Kingdome 2 From thence That the King was loose and absolved from rules of government and was to doe every thing that power would admit My Lords more cannot be said they cannot be aggravated whatever I should say would be in diminution 3 Thence You have an Army in Ireland you may imploy to reduce this Kingdome To counsell a King not to love his people is very unnaturall it goes higher to hate them to malice them in his heart the highest expressions of malice to destroy them by warre These coales they were cast upon his Majesty they were blowne they could not kindle in that brest Thence my Lords having done the utmost to the King hee goes to the people At York the Country being me● together for Justice at the open Assizes upon the Bench he tels them speaking of the
Lords That nothing might be left here for an exception that is that in treasons felonies and other capitall offences concerning life the Irish lawes are not the same as here Therefore it is enacted in a Parliament held in England in the 14. yeere of Edward the second it is not in print neither but is in the Parliament booke That the Lawes concerning life and member shall be the same in Ireland as in England And that no exception might yet remaine in a Parliament held in England the fifth yeere of Edward the third It is enacted quod una eadem Lex fiat tam Hibernicis quam Anglicis This act is enrolled in the Patent rolls of the fifth yeere of Ed. the 3. part 1. membr 25. The Irish therefore receiving their Lawes from hence they send their Students at Law to the Innes of Courts in England where they receive their degree and of them and of the common Lawyers of this kingdome are the Judges made The petitions have been many from Ireland to send from hence some Judges more learned in the Lawes then those they had there It hath been frequent in cases of difficulty there to send some times to the Parliament here sometimes to the King by advice from the Judges here to send them resolutions of their doubts Amongst many I 'll cite your Lordships onely one because it is in a case of treason upon an Irish statute and therefore full to this point By a Statute there made in the fifth yeere of Edward the fourth there is provision made for such as upon suggestions are committed to prison for Treason that the party committed if he can procure 24. Compurgators shall be bailed and let out of prison Two Citizens of Dublin were by a grand Jury presented to have committed Treason They desired the benefit of this statute that they might be let out of prison upon tender of their Compurgators The words of the Statute of the 5. yeere of Ed. the fourth in Ireland being obscure the Judges there not being satisfied what to doe sent the case over to the Queene desired the opinion of the Judges here which was done accordingly The Judges here sent over their opinion which I have out of the Book of Justice Anderson one of the Judges consulted withall The Judges here delivered opinion upon an Irish Statute in case of Treason If it be objected That in this case the Judges here did not judge upon the party their opinions were only ad informandam conscientiam of the Judges in Ireland that the judgement belonged to the Judges there My Lords with submission this and the other Authorities prove that for which they were cited that is That no absurdity no failer of justice would ensue if this great Judicatory should judge of Treason so made by an Irish Statute The common Law the rule of judging upon an Irish Statute the Pleas of the Crowne for things of life and death are the same here and there This is all that hath yet beene offered For the second point That England hath no power of Judicature for things done in Ireland My Lords the constant practice of ages proves the contrary Writs of errour in Pleas of the Crowne as well as in civill causes have in all Kings reignes been brought here even in the inferiour Courts of Westminster Hall upon judgements given in the courts of Ireland The practice is so frequent and so well known as that I shall cite none of them to your Lordships no president will I beleeve bee produced to your Lordships that ever the case was remanded back againe into Ireland because the question rose upon an Irish Statute or custome Object But it will bee said That writs of errour are onely upon a failer of justice in Ireland and that suits cannot originally bee commenced here for things done in Ireland because the Kings writ runs not in Ireland Answ This might be a good plea in the Kings Bench and inferiour Courts at Westminster Hall the question is whether it bee so in Parliament The Kings writ runs not within the County Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the five Ports neither did it in Wales before the union in Henry the eighth's time after the Lawes of England were brought into Wales in King Edward the first 's time suits were not originally commenced in Westminster Hall for things done in them yet this never excluded the Parliament suits for life lands and goods within those jurisdictions are determinable in Parliament as well as in any other parts of the Realme Ireland as appeares by the statute of the thirtieth yeere of Henry the third before mentioned is united to the Crowne of England By the Statute of the eight and twenty yeere of Henry the sixth in Ireland it is declared in these words That Ireland is the proper Dominion of England and united to the Crown of England which Crowne of England is of it selfe and by it self fully wholly and entirely endowed with all power and authority sufficient to yeeld to the subjects of the same full and plenary remedy in all debates and suits whatsoever By the Statute of the 33. yeere of Henry the eighth the first Chapter when the Kings of England first assumed the title of King of Ireland it is there enacted That Ireland still is to bee held as a Crowne annexed and united to the Crowne of England So that by the same reason from this that the Kings writ runs not in Ireland it might aswell be held that the Parliament cannot originally hold plea of things done within the County Palatine of Chester and Durham nor within the five Ports and Wales Ireland is part of the Realme of England as appeares by those statutes as well as any of them This is made good by constant practice In all the Parment rolls from the first to the last there are receivers and tryers of petitions appointed for Ireland For the Irish to come so farre with their petitions for justice and the Parliament not to have cognizance when from time to time they had in the beginning of the Parliament appointed receivers and tryers of them is a thing not to be presumed An appeale in Ireland brought by William Lord Vescye against Iohn Fitz Thomas for treasonable words there spoken before any Judgement given in the case there was removed into the Parliament in England and there the defendant acquitted as appeares in the Parliament pleas of the two and twentieth yeere of Edward the first The suits for lands offices and goods originally begun here are many and if question grew upon matter in fact a Jury usually ordered to try it and the verdict returned into Parliament as in the case of one Balliben in the Parliament of the five and thirtieth yeere of Edward the first If doubt arose upon a matter tryable by Record a writ went to the Officers in whose custody the Record remained to certifie the Record as was in the case of Robert Bagot the