putting to cruell Torments and death so many Priests and Professors of the Roman Religion Fourthly in depriving their Bishops and Clergymen of their respective Church-Governments Dignities Seas Benefices and Churches and setting up others they get livings in their places Fifthly in making it no less then High-Treason which is yet in force either to be Priests or to communicate with them in many Spirituall Church-Offices and Sacraments Sixtly in continuing to this day in a violent detaining of their Churches Benefices Dignities and Spirituall Functions from all those of the Roâ—an profession and holding them in their own hands and all this because they maintain certain pretended Errors which they now confess not to be fundamentall nor destructive of Salvation and consequently that those of the Roman Church have suffered and still suffer all these intollerable injuries for that which even these Modern Authors acknowledg to be no more then a venial and small sin for if it were mortall it would destroy Salvation so long as one wilfully continues in it which they affirm it does not Further by this Acknowledgement these modern Protestant Authors must confess that their former Writers who were of a contrary mind in charging the Church of Rome and the rest with her of Superstition and Idolatry c. and all those who then joyned with them and all their modern Churches and Protestants both without and within England who at this day hold it a point of their Faith to accuse the Church of Rome in the same mannerâ— erre damnably against Christian Truth and so consequently are no true Churches of Christ for it cannot be less then a damnable Error to make it a point of their Faith and Religion to condemn any one much more all the visible Churches of the West nay and of the East too and so of whole Christendom for nine hundred yeares together of grievous Superstition when upon better examination the Doctors of the same Protestant Church are compelled by force of truth to confess that those Churches neither are nor ever were guilty of those horrid Errors and at most erre onely venially and lightly which hinder them not either to be a true Church of Christ or to obtain Salvation Bishop of Cant. p. 129. num 3. Even while they constantly and immoveably maintain them and accuse all who wilfully contradict them and condemn them as erroneous And hence also it follows that seeing these modern Protestant Authors and their party Communicate in Prayer and Sacraments with the Presbyterians and Calvinists who accuse the Church of Rome of Idolatry c. and so put it in fundamentall error and acknowledg themselves to make one Church with them must be guilty of deadly Schisme by that Communion and acknowledgment and consequently so long as they continue in that Communion are uncapable of Salvation Here are many words to small purpose Answ 11 a Question might have been couched in five lines enlarged to five pages my answer must be answerable Know you therefore whosoever you are without a name Protestants are not put to great straits nor desperate acknowledgments they are not ashamed of their first beginners They stand not for the Succession of an invisible Church they acknowledg not for their first beginners of a visible Church Berengarius the Waldenses Albigenses Wicklifsts Hussits whom yet you cannot truly affirm to have been legally condemned for Hereticks but we alleadge for our Predecessors Christ and his Apostles Ignatius Clemens Hegesippus Polycarpus Irenaeus Theophilus Tertullian Cyprian Origan Methodius Gregory Neozes Constantius Magnus Eusebius Casarian Lactantius Athanasius Hilarius Basilius Magnus Gregorius Nyssenus Gregorius Nazianzenus Hieronymus Epiphanius Ambrotius Chrysostomus Cyrillus Theodoretus Augustinus with the foure Oecumenicall Councils of Nice of Constantinople of Ephesus of Calcedon with all the holy company of Saints and noble Army of Martyrs untill the seventh Age against whose positions if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yeild and many more Catholicks since we acknowledge not to succeed the Church of Rome we were and are as the Church of Rome was of the Catholick Church we acknowledge her to be a true Church we deny her to be the true Church she is and we are parts of the true Church yet we not so erroneous as she we acknowledge not to have wronged the Church of Rome we complain that the Church of Rome or rather the Bishop of Rome with his Court hath wronged that Church this Church and with both the whole Chatholick Church by Quittance and by Forfeiture 1. By Quittance the Bishop of Rome hath wronged the Church in assuming to himself the Title of Vniversall Bishop and spirituall Soveraigne and Monarch of the Church which is as inconsistent with a Provinciall Patriarchiat-ship which was never by any nor shall by me be denyed him as Humane and Divine Institution 2. By Forfeiture for if the Rebellion of an Inferior forfeits by renouncing his Loyalty to his Superiour then the Bishop of Rome is notorious in his Rebellion against Generall Councils the onely Supreme Ecclesiasticall power and not onely against a Generall Council the Representative Church but also against the Catholick Church in usurping a Dominion over it And not onely by Rebellion but also by Robbery who but the Bishop of Rome would have robbed the King of England of his Investitures of Bishops which Henry the seventh protested against by his Proctour Who but the Bishop of Rome robbed the King of his Patronages by Collations Provisions and Expectative Graces Who but he robbed the King of England of the last Appeales of his Subjects contray to the ancient Lawes of England I could go on to inferior Robberies committed by the Bishop of Rome upon the Nobility and Clergy of England but I hasten to the rest of your Question We have not condemned your Church of Rome of Superstition Idolatry Antichristianisme c. Private men it may be have the Church of England have not and if the Church of Rome be guilty of such Errors let her free her self The Church of England hath not destroved burnt alienated to secular uses thousands of your Churches Monasteries Townes Citties Villages if any such things have been done let the Actors be quesstioned let not the Church of England be blamed The Church of England hath not put to cruell Torments and death many Priests and Professors of the Roman Religion nor deprieved their Bishops and Clergy of their Church-Governments the Church of England hath onely recovered their own the Church of England hath not made it High Treason to be Priests you know when they are executed they executed for something else then for being Priests The Church of England continues not in a violent detaining of Roman Benefices but in a lawfull possession of their own and all this not for certain pretended but reall Errors which you of the Roman Church do hold and destructive to Salvation to such knowing men as your self though not of the same consequence to
a little more from that most Reverend Archbishop whom you have cited twice before my soul for a simple peaceable believing soul in the Church of England not so for such an one in the Church of Rome no more for him or her but a possibility Whether a person who is in quiet possession of any Goods Quest 5 Tythes Titles Rights or Dignities c. retaine not the Right to all such Goods and is wrongfully deprived of them so long as he neither confesses that he hath no Right to them nor is condemn'd by the clear sentence of any lawfull or competent Judge of sufficient Authority to desine against him but still maintaines his Cause against his Adversary and gives at least probable Answers to all that he alleadgeth against him and pleads to be restored to his ancient possession taken from him by force and violence and whether he who thus violently took the possession from him be not obliged in Conscience to restore it to him again And whether he proceeds not unjustly so long as he retaines it from him I shall answer this impertinent Question by retorting it with a simile more verisimilitude like Answ 5 Whether if a Bishop the Bishop of Rome be the man do wrongfully deprive the Emperour Emperour of Germany be he of his-Rights and Dignities in calling Gerall Councils claiming his Right to that particular and uncondemn'd by the clear sentence of any lawfull and competent Judge c. pardon that Sir I but follow your own example in this very Paragraph doth not sin egregiously in this detension Will you have another Thus whether if a Thief by force get in possession of your 〈◊〉 and goods be not still a Thief so long as he deâ—â—â—â— them and your self a Fool if you lay not hold 〈◊〉 the first opportunity to resume them This is our 〈◊〉 though it seemeth yours your Church the Church 〈◊〉 Rome or rather the Bishop and Court of Rome had â—â—â—â—oched and usurped too far upon the Rights of the Church of England which was alwaies opposed but at last regained though now for our sins or by the sins of others disposed a third way but it was violent and I hope will not be lasting Whether thâ—â— hath not been within the last hundred and fifty yeares and still is Quest 6 the proceeding of Protestants against the Roman Church violently excluding her Bishops Pastors and People from the quiet possession of many hundred yeares continuance of their Doctrine Dignities Titles Governments Benefices Churches Possessions and still retaine them and refusing to restore them those of the Roman Church still claiming their Right and never having been condemn'd by any competent or lawfull Judge nor acknowledging themselves convinced to have obtained that possession wrongfully Sir Answ 6 part of this is true and part of this is false That them whom you call Protestants Catholicks I should have called them have thus dealt with them of the Roman Church for 150. yeares shall not be denyed by me nor will it be denyed by you that they did it justly because the Bishop of Rome had never any universall power untill an usurping Pope Boniface by name from an usurping Emperour Phoras who murthered his Master Mauritius gave him the Title of Universall Bishop and for their robbing the English Church betwixt 600. and 700. yeares the English Church and Churchmen with the consent of King and Parlament have resumed their own which whether you will acknowledg to be a competent and lawfull Judge and your selves convinced to have obtained your former possessions wrongfully I shall leave to wiser men then you or my self to determine Whether the quiet possession of many Ages Quest 7 both of the Easterne and Westerne Churches in their unaâ—â—mous consent of Doctrine and Practise in most points oâ— Controversie betwixt them and Protestants be not a sufficient proof to justifie the said Doctrine and Practise till it be convinced clearly evidently and undeniably by Reason or Authority or lawfully condemned of Error So that it belongs to Protestants who are the Aggressors to convince their Adversaries of Error and not to those of the Romane or Grecian Churches to prove their Tenents by any other Arguments then that of their quiet antient and universall possession though Catholicks be upon the Affirmative and Protestauts upon the Negative as he who quietly possesses the Name Title Armes and Lands of such and such a family hath sufficiently proved that he hath a Right to them and that they are truly his till he either confesse that the contrary is sufficiently proved or that it be lawfully determined against him It is confest Answ 7 that the unanimous consent of Doctrine and Practise of the Easterne and Westerne Churches in all points of Doctrine betwixt them and Protestants would prove some thing of sufficiency but in most points it riseth not to a sufficient proof and yet for your most points you leap before you look for if you look upon the Rites in Baptisme you agree not with the Eastern Church we do nor do you agree with them any more then we do in the point of the Procession of the Holy Ghost nor do they any more yield to you in the Infallibility and Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome so that the consent of the Eastern or Grecian and the Western or Roman is not unanimous in most much less in all points of Controversies against the Protestants Whether is it not a most insolent madness as St. Quest 8 Augustine termes it or an insufferable height of pride for any Christian whatsoever to call in Question much more to censure and condemne as erroneous that which all the visible Churches in the World taught and Practised and a manifest foolery to follow any Teachers and give eare and belief to them who contradict the universall Practise and Doctrine of the whole Christian World Sir Answ 8 had not these words been spoken in relation to them whom you call Protestants and we call Catholicks for the Romans and Catholicks are not Termes convertible or had these words been spoken as St. Augustine spake them in relation to the Donatists plain Hereticks and so condemned which Protestants were never yet lawfully condemned to be these words of youre might have passed and therefore for hereafter good words I pray else your insolent madnesse may make mad-men sober your insufferable height of pride may make proud-men humble and your manifest foolery may make fooles so wise as not longer o follow such Teachers as your selves who for many hundred yeares have contradicted the universall Practise and Doctrine of the whole Christian World Eastern and Western prove you new Rome challenges no more priviledges then old Rome did a Patriarchat-ship and no more prove that Patriarchall power above the Supreme Ecclesiasticall power a Generall Council to which Patriarchall was alwaies subject prove us convinced by either you say something till then I stir not farther in these dirty words Whether the first was not done
never simpler men for gifts nor worse-disposed men for attempts And now against this Council against us we oppose four Councils for us against you The second of Ephesus the second of Constantinople that of Eliberis and the fourth of Carthage The great Council of Lateran I conceive it alledged for the matter of Transubstantiation and here I note the Antiquity of this Council It was called in the Year 1215. so old is Transubstantiation no older and against this we oppose all Councils and Fathers silence before and before all the institution of Christ himself who sayes The flosh profiteth no thing my words are spirit and the Exposition of this Institution of all Writers until this Council The Council of Constance I conceive it alledged for communion in one kind against which I need not say more than what Gelasius Bishop of Rome it self said Sine grandi Sacrilegio fieri non potest it was high Sacriledge to do it unless you will give me leave to adde Christs own Precept Drink you all of this all Laity as well as Clergy The Council of Florence I conceive it alleadged for Purgatory called Anno 1438. and if I am right in this Contecture I need not say more then what Aâ—phonsus à Castro l. 8. adv Heres verbo Indulgentia hath said the mention of Purgatory in ancient writers is almost none at all and if you will be pleased to name any one Father save Origen untill St. Gregory the Great his time that is direct for Purgatory I shall not much stand upon it since I think it will not much hinder any mans Salvation to believe it or disbelieve it for my part I neither do nor dare nor will believe it The Council of Trent called Anno 1563. I conceive it alleadged for all differences whatsoever betwixt the Romans and Protestants which Council if you can prove was either lawfull generall or free which I yet positively deny in each I shall sit down and in this Council I tell you were not many Holy Patriarchs Metropolitans Archbishops Bishops not one of the Eastern Church and you know the reason of it too For proofes of Learning if the Church of England be not comparable to you in number she hath exceeded you in weight and that this world knowes and you have felt and now you by your policy make the Churchmen of England smart for it For your universall esteem of Sanctity with your Gregory Beda Thomas Bonaventure Antonine Dominick to avoide some stories of some of them The Church of England can produce as great a Cloud of witnesses by the Verdict of all unbyassed men in an Andrewes a Bucheridge a Laud a Montague a Hall a Prideaux and diverse others before them a Jewell a Whitgift a Cranmer a Latimer a Ridley Speak not too much of your zelous passing into barbarous Nations to convert them lest the Indean be brought out of Love with Heaven if the Roman go thither And for our Ministry with their Wives Goods and Families we have little left thanks to you or some as bad as you they can apply themselves to Study and Devotion as well and with less sin then your single Clergy and retired Religions Boast not too much of your unanimous consent untill your Dominicans and Franciscans be at peace about the immaculate Conception of the blessed Virgin untill your Jesuites and Dominicans be at peace about the Aids and Operations of Grace untill Bannes and Lessius be at peace in the sad point of absolute Reprobation untill your Doctors of Sorbon and Lovaine be at peace about the Popes Supremacy untill Venice and Rome be all at peace about the Popes power untill the French and Spanish Papists be at peace about an equality of Subjection to the Pope untill 〈◊〉 â—regory the first and Gregory the seventh be by some 〈◊〉 your selves reconciled about the Title of Vniversalis Episcopus untill all of you be reconciled about the Popes infallibility untill all and every one of you tell the world whether Translation of the Bible by Sextus the first or Clement the eight be the best cum multis aliis quae nunc perscribere longum est For miracles to confirm our Doctrine against yours we need none untill you by a new miracle turne Rome as it is into Rome as it was and then we all meet in an incomparable Authority of one Catholick Church Whether hence be not evidently discovered not onely the insufferable Pride of Luther Quest 31 and the other Originall beginners of any Sect in Protestancy in preferring their sole Authority before that of the Prelates and Doctors of all the visible Churches in Christendom existent when they begun first to preach their Doctrine but the extreme madness of all the ignorant Laity who followed them upon their sole Authority and preferred one single person upon his bare word without any extraordinary signes or manifest proofes from Heaven attesting his Authority before all the Doctors Prelates Councils Churches within the precincts of Christendom both of that present time and for 900. years before And if those were infected with so deep a frensie how can any man be adjudged deservedly discreet and prudent who approves of their proceedings in this particular and sides with them at least in some Article of other in the opposition of the whole Christian world as all Protestants do even to this day Rarely spoken Answ 31 and a fair way to catch birds The insufferable Pride of Luther if he were guilty of it let him answer for it and all other Originall beginners of any Sect in Protestancy Sir it is very well known who said This Sect is every where spoken against yet for all that that very Sect over-spread it self and conquered the whole world and this very Sect of Protestancy hath put a fair beginning to the Conquest of the Roman Doctrine which though now like that Sect under the ten Persecutio◠〈◊〉 somewhat eclipsed hath yet so much light left as to discerne between all the visible Churches in Christendom all Doctors Prelates Councils Churches within the precincts of Christendom and the present Roman and claim none for our beginners but Christ and his Apostles the four Generall Councils and the Primitive Fathers and the Church of Rome it self as it was when it was Catholick and therefore think they are to be judged deservedly discreet and prudent who approve our present Doctrines with the whole Christian world and desert the present Roman Hence I farther demand Quest 32 That seeing on one side the true Christian Religion having the divine Wisdom for its Authority cannot admit of any thing imprudent as properly belonging to it in the choyce of it and on the other side That the Protestant Religion or any Sect whatsoever sprung from it or existent in it cannot be prudently chosen by any unlearned person who is sufficiently informed of the nullity of that Authority which propounds it compared with the Authority propounding the Roman Religion whether I say those