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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93887	Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah: or, The first part of the duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. By Adam Steuart. Whereunto is added, the judgement of the reformed churches of France, Switzerland, Geneva, &c. concerning independants, who condemne them with an unanimous consent. Published by David Steuart. March 17. 1644. Imprimatur Ja: Cranford.; Duply to M.S. alias Two brethren. Part 1	Steuart, Adam.; Steuart, David, fl. 1644.	1645 (1645)	Wing S5494; Thomason E274_14; ESTC R209896	100,836	110

yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding

Order of Colloques and of Provinciall Synods consisting of Pastors and Antients deputed by the particular Churches and of Nationall Synods consisting of Pastors and Ancients deputed by the Provinciall Synods And that there may be a proceding in these holy Assemblies from step to step according to the quality and merit of Businesses 24. The Colloques may be held once or twice a yeare or oftner if there be businesses that require it The Provinciall Synods ought to be held once at the least in a yeare As for the Nationall Synods we conceive it will be sufficient that yee hold them from two to two or from three yeares to three yeares 25. The Ecclesiastique Assembly now sitting may make Rules touching the matters which the Consistorie● and Colloques shall judge definitively of as also of those which shall afterwards be carried to the Provinciall Synods and from the Provinciall to the National As when there is a Question that touches either the Interdiction or Deposition of Pastors 26. In all these Colloques and Synods as well Provinciall as Nationall after the invocation of the Name of God the President the Assessor or Assessors and the Secretaries should be Elected by plurality of voyces and after the end and shutting up of the Assembly they are to submit themselves as well as all the rest of the Company to the Censure of their Brethren 27. Those that are consecrated to the Holy Ministery after they have given good and sufficient testimony of their lives and manners ought to be examined in the Provinciall Synods or at least in the Colloques who having judged them capable are to send them with letters of Recommendation to those Churches that demand them where after they have by some Exercises or Sermons given a proofe of their gifts and the dexterity they have individing a right the Word of God and received the approbation of the people they receive the Imposition of Hands by the Pastors that are deputed for that purpose 28. This is a very profitable order that all the Pastors of a Colloque Preach there in their turnes and that their Sermons be subject to the charitable Censure of their Brethren 29. For that after the breaking up of the Assemblies they that presided in them have no more power then they had before the Calling of them To the intent there may alwaies be some constant and set order betweene the Churches Before such time as the Assembly part it ought to enjoyne some one certaine Church to give and receive the Advise of all the rest of the Churches of the Colloque or of the Province and to give it power in case of necessity to convocate a Colloque or Provinciall Assembly Extraordinarily The Nationall Synod ought also to give it in charge to the Provinciall Synod commit the care to call the Nationall Synod that is next to be to the Provinciall Synod 30. We are of Opinion that by the meanes of such an order once setled you will be able to remedy all that is amisse For on the one side there will be no primacy nor dominion of some particular Churches over others and on the other side you shall by that meanes chase out of the House of God all disorder and confusion 31. If whilst we studied to be briefe we be found obscure any where in this Discourse we are all ready to explaine our meanings and to make it cleerely appeare how exceeding sensible we are of your Interests as also what great contentment we take in this Brotherly Communication of yours with us 32. We know not what may be the Reasons of these Gentlemen you call Independents and we doubt not but you have both in England and Scotland gallant witts that are able men enough to refute them neverthelesse if you please to acquaint us with them we to testifie in testimony of the uniformity of our Opinions shall receive the communications as a respect unto us and will endeavour the Answer thereunto with charity Now the God of Patience and Consolation grant you all to thinke one and the same thing according to Iesus Christ to the end that you may all with one tongue and mouth glorifie the God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ Amen IT is true that considering that the pretended Independency that some would bring in in England is the way to open a wide gate to a most fearfull confusion and that by the means therof the Devil is so busie to pull down whatsoever yee build up in my nineteenth Article I said That for very great very important and most just reasons it was resolved upon to abolish and pull downe the Episcopacy but that there was lesse mischiefe and inconvenience to permit it after a due correction of the Excesses of it and an abolishment of its Tyranny then to bring into the Church of God such an horrible confusion as seem'd to be conched and vayled under the name of INDEPENDENCY I freely confesse unto you that I am yet of the very same Opinion notwithstanding your reasoning to the contrary I say then 1. that though such a Tolerance might give somewhat to many to apprehend and suspect yet the Evills that could possibly thence arive would be without comparison farre lesse then those that this unbridled Licensing of Independents might introduce among you Now of two Evills you would doe well to choose the lesser 2. I conceived not that there was so great danger in tolerating the Bishops provided that they were ranged within the order of other Pastours so as that they might not have dominion over them but only a certaine Presidency and Commission to watch over their Brethren and that this Commission were given them by the Colloque or the Synod of the Province and that those Assemblies had the power in themselves to deprive them of it and to substitute others in their Places 3. There are many things established in the Government of the Church which formally and expresly are not to be found in the Word of God 4. It hath pleased God to give this in charge to those that he hath called to the guidance and Government of his Flock His Will is that All things in his House be done in order and to edification 5. You your self use yee not to choose from amongst your Pastors some persons to preside in your Colloques and in your Synods Is this formally and expresly in the Word of God A Presidency for certain Moneths or for certain Yeares is it of it selfe more faulty or criminall then that of yours for certaine daies or certaine weekes 6. Consider if it please you that Parker and other learned men of your Nation that have written against the Hierarchy declare how that were the Bishops in England but as the Pastors in Germany and Suitzer-land which they usuall stiley Inspectors and Super-intendents they would never goe about to put them downe 7. Put the case this order were established amongst the Pastors it were not properly to establish an office

that is not in the Word of God for if it be well thought on these Inspectors have not any other Office in the Church of God then the other Pastors they are but onely delegated by their Brethren and Fellow Ministers and have from them and by their order a Commission for a time to watch over their Brethren as their Brethren may have a like Commission when their turne comes to watch over them and their behaviours Iust so as if in a well governed Family Brethren should make an agreement to give some one amongst them a Commission to watch for a certaine time over the deportment of the rest and this without any domination or command 8. To conclude sir you and we may easily agree upon this Article For you beleeve you are bound absolutely to abolish the Bishops of England and to shut quite out of doores the confusion of the Independents my thoughts are the same and I approve your designe wholly beseeching God with all my heart that he would blesse the worke of your hands and that you may see those happy daies wherein the Churches of England being purely Reformed may enjoy the same Discipline which is holily established in those of Scotland You are pleas'd in your letter to adde something concerning the Independents but you doe but only alleadge that which they beleeve and touch not upon any of the Reasons upon which they ground themselves wherefore I shall but only give a slight touch with my Pen upon every one of your sven Articles As to the first I thanke you most affectionately for the Copies of your Covenant the which I had seene before and had praised God who is the Author of this Christian peace and of this holy agreement of which I expect great fruit to the glory of God and the edification of his Church 2. The Independents doe but make sport when they say they acknowledge that Synods and Colloques are of Divine Right and deny them notwithstanding any manner of jurisdiction over particular Churches This is to pull downe with one hand what they build with the other For I cannot comprehend what use at all there can be of Colloques and Synods if they have no jurisdiction over particular Churches and lesse yet how one particular Church can refuse to submit it selfe to a generall Assembly the which it acknowledges to be of Divine Right 3. Now to that that they will not admit any one for a member of their Congregation that hath not some notable and conspicuous markes of Regeneration I conceive not that this opinion can have many Followers for that the members of the Church consist either of the Infants of Beleevers or of persons of perfect Age. As for the children of Beleevers there is no difficulty at all for the Apostle calls them Saints in regard of the Covenant of God that sanctifies and makes them holy And as for the others either they are borne amongst us or they come to our party by Conversion As for them that are converted it is true that they ought not hand overhead to be admitted into the body of the Church and that it does well to have some prooses of their knowledge in Religion as also some testimonies of their holy Conversation to the end that the Church be not defiled with their unsoundnesse But in this Examination we must proceed with charity and not be over severe for feare of casting backe and destroying of him who is yet weake and feeble in the Faith For as much as concernes those that are already in the communion of the Church the Rules of the Word of God are expresse concerning them They whose sins are not publique and notorious we are to reprove and censure them in private otherwise it were to spread a scandall and to offend against charity which covers a multitude of sins These that sin publickly and whose sins are notoriously knowne to all or the greater part of the people are to be reproved publickly and the businesse is to be carried so as that an amends be made by a publicke repentance for publick scandalls in case that it be requisite for the edification of the Church If the Offences be enormious or if the Offenders chance to be hardned and obstinate in their wickednesle we are to cut them off by Excommunication and so to take from among us the old leven that it soure not the whole lump and that the accursed thing cause not Israel to turne her backe But the Offender how great or enormious so ever he be if he repent after a convenient time of triall of the truth of his repentance we are bound to have compassion of him and to readmit him to the peace of the Church that he be not swallowed up with sorrow and cast head-long into Despaire It were good we should avoid as the too great severity and rigidity of the Ancients so likewise the over great levity and indulgence that is in vogue amongst us at this day 4. As to that that they will have every particular member present at the deliberation of all businesses whatsoever without having any right of suffrage or Authority I conceive this stands in need of some good distinction for certaine occasions there are upon which a man may grant them more then they demand as at such times when there is any debate touching businesses that are extraordinary and that concern the whole Church in generall for example then when as the question is touching the vocation or admission of a Pastor into a Church In such a case I am of opinion that all the Masters of Families that belong to that Church not onely ought to be present at the Consultation but also that they are to have their voyce and suffrage therein But that they should be at all kinds of debates there seemes to be no colour for it this neither can be nor indeed is it expedient It cannot I say be for the Church having continually businesses whereon to deliberate how is it possible the whole Church should so often be congregated Againe I say it is no waies expedient for there are certain businesses which ought not to be divulged wherein Christian Prudence and secrecie are very necessary If some particular man were to be censured for some particular offence that few know of and which if it were known would in all likelyhood expose him to a visible and apparent danger were it fitting now to debate and deliberate touching the censuring of this man before the whole Congregation Meet we at no time with businesses of such a nature as wherein the simple people are neither capable of understanding the Reasons nor yet able to hold their peace Must we needs abandon all Affaires of the Church to the discretion of every particular man If the people were to assist in all Consultations what a noise what contestations what divisions what scandalls should we have For however some men perchance would forbeare to deliver an opinion yet they would be

desire to confer with you if I may know who you are you shall herein do me a singular pleasure to teach me better which if ye do not or make me know who ye are I cannot think this counsell to be given in sinceritie Whereas I say ye sue for a Toleration and consequently for a Separation it is most true in the sense that I take a Separation viz. for a Separation from our Discipline and Sacramentall Communion as I have fully proved in this my Book whereunto all the Independent Churches in the world cannot answer for if ye be not separated from us but entertain union and communion with us what need ye more a Toleration rather then the rest of the members of our Church P. 18. Sect. 3. What I say of your undervaluing the Parliaments favour it is true and howbeit ye have not been yet accused before the Parliament or the Assembly yet doth not that justifie you but highly commend their great mercy singular prudence and charity in not taking notice of your indiscretions to say no more in calumniating nick-naming the Protestant Churches and publishing unto the world such unworthy Books against them yea against those whom ye acknowledge for your Benefactors Is not this I pray thee M.S. an undervaluing of so great favours is not this an extraordinary ingratitude to ward the Churches of the Netherlands who so lovingly received you and cherished you in the dayes of your affliction Well good men if yee esteem it not so they both may think their favours to have bin very ill bestowed upon so unthankfull men But this M.S. and C.C. tell us that they have done nothing but by Ordinance of Parliament What wretched men the very shame of this Kingdom I pray thee Reader pardon me if I give them not the titles that just anger would extort dare ye in face of Parliament and all the world so impudently father this indiscreet Book farced with little else save Calumnies upon the two most honourable Houses of Parliament Have ye I pray any order from either of the Houses to publish it unto the world Have ye any order from them to calumniate on this manner and to put nick-names upon the most orthodox Churches to call the Presbyterian an Episcopall Government Shall Protestants abroad read all this If they read it what I pray can they judge of this Parliament and their affection towards them unlesse they judge you to be lyers Well M.S. and C.C. yee speak both boldly and sawcily of the Parliament And as if all this yet were not enough thou M.S. to be sure to out-run C.C. tells us that the name of Stuart in foure men has been fatall to England and Scotland viz. in King James King Charles Doctor Stuart the Divine and in Adam Stuart here Pag. 22. Sect. 3. Hare-brained Fellow that thou art what has King James King Charles or Doctor Stuart to do with this Dispute canst thou not dispute calmly with me unless thou be snarling and biting like a mad Dog at every one that stands necre thee at Kings Parliament and all the best reformed Orthodox Churches of the Christian world I will not cast Horoscopes or consult Astrologues and Deviners as thou dost but if the Laws of the Kingdom be consulted God knoweth what a sad account thou mayest ere long bee called unto for such wilde expressions P. 19. Sect. 1. I am sory that yee vaunt your selfe that the Parliament resolved with a generall acclamation that your Apologie should be left unblamed and that ye threaten so many sorrows that should have befallen the Churches if it had been condemned If it be so it is a pittie but they should make great acclamations to so great and mighty Independent Ministers that thinke none of them so much as worthy to communicate with their Churches but will that they depend upon them But I beleeve that this is like to the rest of your vain braggings All that thou sayest P. 19. Sect. 3. they are but meere calumnies It is not I but the Independents themselves who sow the seed of Division betwixt themselves on the one part and the Parliament here the Scots and all Protestant Churches on the other only I declare what they are and I am glad if any of them have the grace to blush or be ashamed of it Nam pudor est virtutis color And so I answer thee in thine own words nec oleum nec operam perdo Those 6. things Proverbs 6.16 belong not to me but to thy selfe and as others say they are the very Essentiall notes of your Independent Churches Thou tellest also thereabout that thou divinest I wish rather thou wert a sound Divine then a Diviner To what thou sayest P. 20. Sect. 1. Because I have found thee and those who write against me such notorious lyers I must tell thee I cannot beleeve thee being my Adversary and I beleeve that no man will beleeve thee till that they have it from a better hand Ibid. Your Minister who preacheth us a tale beginning with In the name of God and ending with a Goose seemeth to have been some Independent Minister like your selfe happily your worthy selfe for that you take so great pleasure to fill up your Book with so worshipfull authorities Sect. 2. The Nick-names you take on you not to know they are 1. Calvinians Apolog. Nar. p. 20. 2. Bishops which ye your selves pin upon our Ministers p. 9. 3. An Idol that must be grinded to powder c. What ever ye say pag. 20. sect 4. I maintain that first in Conventickling your selves in Assemblies a part 2. In taking particular resolution a part 3. in taking of it against the resolution of the Assembly of Divines and 4. finally since in the thanks-giving to the Scots Commissioners such proceedings have been most cleerly howbeit indirectly condemned by the Synod it selfe no rationall man to speaking truly can call it other then an Assembly in the Assembly and against the Assembly And to say that particular Members of the Assembly may print what they please against the common opinion of the Assembly who ever sayes it he knoweth little or not at all how Ecclesiasticall Assemblies are to be governed What you say p. 21. sect 1. I see it is not reason but anger that maketh you to speak so And this may excuse you à tanto sed non a toto if now at length you be sory for it To your 2. sect where you give out your judgement in comparing another mans discretion and mine together he may be a man whose discretion I honour more then yours and mine own both but as for you I cannot but tell you Judicium praeceps insaeni judicis index Sect. 6. To shew his great skill in Phylosophy he quarrelleth with me for saying that the will is a blind Faculty and will needs perswade me most imperiously that the will of it selfe understandeth wherefore then I pray shall not the understanding likewise will Prudence choose and vertue