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england_n bishop_n church_n succession_n 2,569 5 10.4652 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A83012 The confident questionist questioned: or, the examination of the doctrine delivered by Mr. Thomas Willes in certain queries. Published by Mr. Jeremiah Ives. Examined by counter-queries. By N.E. with a letter of Mr. Tho. Willes. N. E. 1658 (1658) Wing E18; Thomason E934_3; ESTC R207678 33,986 58

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the_o corruption_n of_o the_o corrupt_a popish_a receiver_n of_o ordination_n and_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o corrupt_a popish_a dispenser_n of_o it_o ever_o since_o can_v not_o break_v off_o the_o line_n of_o succession_n because_o it_o have_v not_o its_o foundation_n in_o man_n but_o in_o the_o word_n of_o god_n then_o our_o first_o reformer_n must_v needs_o be_v true_a minister_n by_o succession_n and_o the_o present_a ministry_n of_o england_n true_a as_o have_v receive_v it_o from_o they_o be_v not_o the_o ordinance_n and_o ministry_n of_o rome_n the_o ministry_n and_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n so_o far_o as_o they_o be_v according_a to_o the_o word_n object_n but_o may_v you_o say_v this_o be_v it_o i_o wish_v for_o than_o my_o sixteenth_o query_n be_v not_o answer_v may_v we_o not_o go_v lawful_o then_o to_o rome_n to_o be_v ordain_v a._n view_v my_o sixteenth_o counter-query_a 1_o dare_v you_o say_v it_o be_v lawful_a to_o submit_v to_o such_o corruption_n that_o lead_v 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ordination_n as_o i_o have_v say_v be_v by_o minister_n be_v there_o not_o true_a and_o lawful_a minister_n in_o england_n thirty_o year_n ago_o do_v you_o think_v so_o easy_o by_o your_o sophistry_n to_o persuade_v we_o there_o can_v be_v a_o true_a ministry_n under_o the_o name_n of_o episcopacy_n and_o presbytery_n as_o if_o bishop_n thirty_o year_n ago_o can_v not_o be_v true_a minister_n and_o ordain_v true_a minister_n or_o as_o if_o presbyter_n now_o can_v be_v true_a minister_n nor_o ordain_v true_a minister_n prove_v this_o by_o the_o next_o query_n 25._o be_v it_o not_o very_o strange_a that_o you_o shall_v tell_v the_o people_n they_o sin_v in_o hear_v those_o that_o be_v not_o ordain_v when_o you_o never_o tell_v they_o whether_o you_o mean_v any_o ordination_n may_v serve_v nor_o what_o ordination_n of_o those_o divers_a kind_n it_o be_v that_o god_n approve_v of_o counter-query_a how_o mr._n ives_n darenot_v you_o thus_o charge_v mr._n willes_n either_o you_o hear_v he_o all_o his_o sermon_n there_o or_o not_o if_o not_o how_o dare_v you_o say_v that_o he_o never_o tell_v the_o people_n what_o ordination_n he_o mean_v if_o you_o do_v hear_v he_o then_o how_o dare_v you_o false_o charge_v he_o with_o that_o that_o hundred_o of_o people_n can_v witness_v against_o do_v he_o not_o public_o declare_v that_o they_o ought_v to_o hear_v none_o but_o minister_n ordain_v by_o minister_n and_o that_o he_o be_v rigid_o neither_o for_o the_o aforesaid_a independency_n presbytery_n or_o episcopacy_n but_o for_o a_o moderation_n see_v they_o differ_v in_o this_o but_o circumstantial_o and_o that_o he_o hold_v ordination_n perform_v by_o minister_n of_o any_o of_o these_o three_o way_n to_o be_v valid_a and_o good_a be_v not_o a_o tale-bearer_n and_o take_v not_o up_o a_o false_a report_n against_o thy_o neighbour_n query_n 26._o since_o you_o say_v that_o none_o ought_v to_o preach_v but_o they_o must_v be_v ordain_v
except_o as_o before_o except_v then_o i_o query_n whether_o your_o ordination_n be_v derive_v from_o the_o line_n of_o succession_n or_o whether_o it_o have_v its_o original_a from_o necessity_n because_o such_o a_o ordination_n by_o succession_n can_v not_o be_v have_v this_o question_n be_v ground_v partly_o upon_o what_o you_o preach_v partly_o upon_o what_o you_o grant_v i_o at_o your_o house_n viz._n that_o where_o it_o can_v be_v have_v from_o a_o lawful_a successive_a power_n there_o a_o man_n may_v lawful_o officiate_v in_o the_o office_n of_o the_o ministry_n without_o it_o and_o that_o because_o he_o be_v put_v upon_o it_o through_o necessity_n since_o therefore_o you_o say_v there_o be_v but_o these_o two_o way_n by_o which_o a_o man_n may_v be_v justify_v in_o preach_v or_o the_o poeple_n in_o hear_v i_o query_n now_o as_o i_o do_v at_o your_o house_n by_o which_o of_o these_o two_o way_n come_v you_o into_o the_o ministry_n for_o you_o tell_v we_o that_o none_o can_v pretend_v to_o necessity_n when_o it_o may_v be_v have_v by_o succession_n counter-query_a do_v not_o you_o grant_v 1_o that_o a_o true_a succession_n make_v true_a minister_n 2_o that_o where_o succession_n be_v break_v off_o there_o be_v a_o case_n of_o necessity_n 3_o that_o such_o a_o case_n of_o necessity_n to_o which_o a_o positive_a law_n give_v place_n make_v true_a minister_n be_v not_o here_o then_o a_o unanswerable_a argument_n that_o the_o present_a ministry_n of_o england_n be_v true_a and_o lawful_a minister_n because_o the_o first_o reformer_n be_v such_o from_o who_o they_o receive_v it_o for_o if_o the_o true_a line_n of_o succession_n be_v quite_o break_v off_o than_o the_o first_o reformer_n be_v true_a minister_n by_o a_o case_n of_o necessity_n if_o the_o true_a line_n of_o succession_n be_v not_o break_v off_o than_o they_o be_v true_a minister_n by_o succession_n so_o that_o if_o the_o first_o reformer_n must_v needs_o be_v true_a minister_n than_o these_o likewise_o must_v needs_o be_v so_o that_o receive_v it_o from_o they_o sir_n i_o challenge_v you_o to_o answer_v this_o argument_n by_o the_o next_o do_v you_o miserable_o shuffle_v off_o answer_v by_o propound_v query_n and_o do_v the_o follow_a query_n any_o way_n answer_v the_o argument_n if_o your_o query_n prove_v there_o be_v no_o succession_n evident_o there_o be_v a_o necessity_n or_o if_o they_o prove_v no_o necessity_n must_v there_o not_o needs_o be_v a_o succession_n be_v not_o therefore_o your_o query_n to_o the_o forty_o to_o no_o purpose_n but_o to_o follow_v you_o query_n 27._o if_o you_o say_v by_o succession_n then_o sure_o you_o succeed_v from_o rome_n if_o so_o than_o i_o query_n whether_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v the_o spouse_n of_o christ_n and_o her_o ministry_n and_o ordinance_n the_o ministry_n and_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n when_o your_o predecessor_n receive_v their_o ordination_n from_o they_o if_o so_o then_o counter-query_a why_o may_v there_o not_o be_v a_o lawful_a succession_n from_o the_o apostle_n by_o rome_n if_o you_o say_v a_o necessity_n and_o succession_n can_v be_v consistent_a at_o the_o same_o time_n because_o if_o there_o be_v a_o necessity_n there_o can_v be_v no_o succession_n and_o if_o a_o succession_n no_o necessity_n then_o i_o query_n whether_o though_o there_o be_v not_o a_o absolute_a necessity_n of_o the_o susception_n of_o the_o office_n without_o ordination_n when_o a_o ordination_n may_v be_v have_v yet_o there_o may_v not_o be_v so_o far_o a_o necessity_n as_o to_o make_v valid_a a_o impure_a ordination_n when_o no_o better_o can_v be_v have_v for_o as_o much_o as_o the_o essentials_n of_o ordination_n may_v remain_v notwithstanding_o circumstantial_a corruption_n consider_v 1_o have_v not_o ordinance_n their_o foundation_n upon_o the_o word_n of_o god_n do_v they_o not_o consist_v in_o a_o conformity_n to_o the_o divine_a institution_n 2_o have_v ordination_n any_o dependence_n as_o to_o its_o essence_n upon_o the_o opinion_n or_o practice_n of_o man_n whilst_o they_o hold_v this_o conformity_n as_o to_o the_o substance_n of_o the_o ordinance_n 3_o can_v then_o the_o corruption_n either_o of_o receiver_n or_o of_o dispenser_n null_a this_o ordinance_n of_o ordination_n if_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o first_o popish_a corrupt_a receiver_n or_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o popish_a dispenser_n of_o it_o can_v not_o null_a this_o ordinance_n than_o there_o be_v a_o true_a succession_n of_o it_o and_o the_o papist_n can_v not_o break_v off_o this_o succession_n either_o in_o their_o receive_n or_o give_v and_o therefore_o it_o be_v true_o hand_v down_o to_o our_o first_o reformer_n i_o shall_v therefore_o prove_v 1_o that_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o first_o corrupt_a receiver_n that_o first_o receive_v this_o ordinance_n from_o the_o apostle_n or_o their_o successor_n that_o do_v pure_o administer_v it_o can_v not_o null_a this_o ordinance_n or_o break_v off_o this_o line_n of_o succession_n if_o because_o we_o be_v corrupt_a and_o unholy_a the_o ordinance_n be_v no_o ordinance_n than_o god_n ordinance_n depend_v upon_o man_n holiness_n so_o that_o if_o all_o the_o world_n in_o a_o sense_n shall_v be_v corrupt_a god_n shall_v have_v no_o law_n or_o ordinance_n in_o the_o world_n then_o you_o may_v well_o recant_v your_o book_n against_o the_o quaker_n and_o tell_v we_o now_o that_o we_o must_v look_v to_o our_o light_n and_o holiness_n within_o more_o than_o to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n if_o so_o then_o every_o time_n any_o of_o your_o rebaptised_a once_o prove_v corrupt_a or_o be_v guilty_a of_o any_o backslide_n be_v drink_v etc._n etc._n he_o have_v null_v his_o baptism_n and_o must_v be_v baptize_v again_o over_o and_o over_o as_o often_o as_o he_o sin_v or_o if_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o receiver_n null_v a_o ordinance_n than_o none_o can_v be_v guilty_a of_o abuse_v ordinance_n because_o his_o corruption_n make_v it_o to_o be_v no_o ordinance_n then_o none_o can_v be_v guilty_a of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n in_o receive_v the_o lord_n supper_n for_o if_o he_o be_v worthy_a he_o be_v not_o guilty_a if_o unworthy_a than_o he_o be_v corrupt_a and_o if_o the_o former_a principle_n be_v true_a the_o sacrament_n be_v null_v and_o it_o represent_v not_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n but_o s._n paul_n hint_n that_o the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o lord_n supper_n be_v a_o ordinance_n to_o one_o that_o be_v a_o corrupt_a receiver_n and_o therefore_o he_o be_v guilty_a of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n 1_o cor._n 11_o 27._o because_o a_o man_n be_v a_o villain_n a_o rogue_n etc._n etc._n may_v he_o not_o therefore_o have_v justice_n from_o the_o law_n against_o he_o that_o will_v rob_v he_o of_o land_n that_o he_o have_v a_o true_a title_n to_o can_v the_o corruption_n of_o the_o receiver_n null_a the_o law_n be_v that_o miracle_n of_o christ_n not_o to_o be_v esteem_v a_o mercy_n because_o bestow_v upon_o ungrateful_a blind_a man_n do_v it_o not_o appear_v then_o that_o the_o succession_n be_v not_o break_v by_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o first_o corrupt_a receiver_n 2_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o corrupt_a dispenser_n of_o it_o viz._n of_o popish_a priest_n can_v not_o break_v this_o line_n of_o succession_n a_o judge_n probable_o may_v deserve_v to_o be_v hang_v for_o bribery_n and_o injustice_n do_v therefore_o the_o law_n lose_v its_o force_n because_o pronounce_v by_o such_o a_o one_o suppose_v judas_n have_v baptize_v one_o while_o he_o be_v a_o traitor_n in_o his_o heart_n have_v it_o be_v no_o baptism_n suppose_v that_o one_o of_o your_o rebaptizer_n or_o dipper_n be_v a_o errant_a hypocrite_n deceiver_n etc._n etc._n be_v whatever_o he_o have_v do_v null_v and_o must_v all_o be_v dip_v again_o if_o this_o opinion_n be_v true_a can_v we_o ever_o be_v assure_v that_o we_o have_v true_a ordinance_n if_o the_o minister_n that_o dispense_v it_o be_v corrupt_a it_o be_v no_o ordinance_n and_o can_v i_o search_v his_o heart_n or_o know_v his_o head_n and_o opinion_n be_v not_o this_o a_o sad_a case_n and_o condition_n for_o christ_n to_o leave_v his_o spouse_n in_o be_v not_o this_o to_o make_v the_o ordinance_n man_n be_v and_o not_o god_n if_o i_o be_o assure_v the_o proclamation_n come_v from_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n be_o i_o not_o bind_v to_o obey_v it_o though_o it_o be_v read_v by_o a_o rebel_n if_o send_v to_o do_v it_o shall_v gold_n be_v gold_n though_o in_o a_o dunghill_n and_o shall_v the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n those_o rare_a jewel_n not_o only_o lose_v their_o lusty_a but_o essence_n because_o in_o wicked_a hand_n ordinancess_n have_v their_o foundation_n on_o the_o word_n and_o therefore_o depend_v not_o upon_o the_o corruption_n or_o holiness_n of_o any_o man_n reader_n now_o judge_n if_o