fallible authority of some particular men who informe them that there is such a decree And if the decrees were translated into vulgar languages why the translatours should not be as fallyble as you say the translatours of scripture are who can possibly imagine 28. Answer Take away an infallible living Judg and Tradition of the Church you will hardly find any Text of Scripture containing the sublime Mysteries of Christian Faith evident even to the learned among you as hath bene proved hertofore and appeares by the experience of your great and irremediable disagreements and is manifest of itselfe because you haue no certaine Rule when the Scripture is to be taken in a litterall figuratiue morall c sense which difficulty ceases in the Decrees of the Church both because it is knowen vpon what occasion and against what Enours the Church makes â—her Decrees as all know vpon what occasion and against whom the sacred Councell of Trent was gathered and therby it is easy to vnderstand the decrees for the Negatiue or affirmatiue part at least for the substance and the things chiefly inteÌ„ded in them or if any doubt should remayne the Church can declare herself which Scripture can never doe And although the Decrees of Popes and Councells are not conceyved so obscurely as you would make men falsely belieue yet all obscurity is easily cleared by some further declaration As for languages in which they are written it is Latine a language knowne not only to the learned but to many also whom we need not reckon among the learned and they who vnderstand not Larine will find so great vniformity among all those who vnderstand that Language that they cannot remaine vncertaine concerning the meaning of those Decrees though they be not translated into vulgar Languages or if they were so translated eyther the translations would be found totally to agree or els it were easy to be informed which of them did mistake seing innumerable persons do perfectly vnderstand Latine and Besides as I sayd it is evidently knowne vpon what occasion the Decrees were framed and what was the scope of them and what part they condemned as false or defined as true But for Scripture seing you haue no certaine Rule to know the sense therof aÌ„d Translations of Protestants are manifestly seen to be contrary one to another the most learned among you can haue no certainty yea I dare say that greater learning will occasion greatest multiplicity of doubts and perplexityes vnless there be acknowledged an infallible Living Judg and much less can the vnleaned haue certainty sufficient to exercise a true Act of Diuine Faith More of this matter may be seen in Charity Maintayned Part 2. Chap 5. N. 32. in answer to an Objection made by Potter like to this of yours To your saying If the Decrees were translated into vulgar Languages why the Translators should not be as fallible as you say the Translators of the Scripture are who can possibly imagine I answer There is a manifold difference between the Translations of Scripture and of the Ecclesiasticall Decrees For every word of Scripture was inspired by the Holy Ghost One Text may haue divers literall senses intended by the same Holy Spirit We are ignorant what was the scope of Canonicall Writers for every particular Chapter or Text Every Reason given in holy Scripture is a matter of Faith The style and Majesty therof surpasses humane wit and manner of writing All which considerations make the Translations of Scripture both more difficult and more dangerous then those of Ecclesiasticall Definitions or Decrees in which the fore sayd Reasons haue not place as appeares by what I sayd even now 29. But you would proue Pag 94. N. 109. that no man can be certaine of the Churches Decrees which must be confirmed by a true Pope Now the Pope cannot be true Pope if he came in by simony Which whether he did or no who can answer me He cannot be true Pope vnless he were baptized and baptized he was not vnless the Minister had due intention So likewise he cannot be a true Pope vnless he were rightly ordained Priest and that againe depends vpon the Ordainers secret intention and also vpon his having the Episcopall Character All which things depend vpon so many vncertaine suppositions that no humane judgment can possibly be resolved in them I conclude therfor that not the learnedst man amongst you all no not the Pope himself can according to the grounds you goe vpon haue any certainty that any Decree of any Councell is good and valid and consequently not any assurance that it is indeed the Decree of a Councell 30. Answer These very Objections Potter made and are answered by Charity Maintayned Part 2. Chap 5. N 31. but you take no notice therof That your suppositions are never to be admitted but we are sure that whosoever in a tyme free from Schisme is once accepted by the Church for a true Pope is such indeed Yet if you will be making such vntrue suppositions that the Pope did enter by Simony or wanted Baptisme or true Ordination God would never permitt him to define any thing in prejudice of the Church Neither are the occasions of Defining matters of Faith alwayes vrgent as we see the Church for the space of three hundred yeares after the Apostles past without any Generall Councell Yea if de facto any Pope define some truth to be a matter of Faith we are sure even by his doing so that he is true Pope it being impossible that God should permit his vniversall Church to be obliged to belieue a falshood or an vncertaine thing as all are obliged to beleeve the Definition of one who is accepted for true Pope See more of this in the saied place of Charity Maintayned 31. But now Good Sr. I beseech you reflect that in being so eager against vs you haue degraded or rather haue denyed your Bishops Priests and the whole Pretended mock-Hierarchy of the Protestant Church in England which hitherto hath bene ambitious to proue the Ordination and Succession of your Bishops from the Roman Church of which nevertheless you say Pag 77. N. 67. He that shall put together and maturely consider all the possible wayes of lapsing and nullifying a Priesthood in the Church of Rome I belieue will be very inclinable to thinke that it is an hundred to one that amongst an hundred seeming Priests there is not one true one Nay that it is not a thing very improbable that amongst those many millions which make vp the Râ—man Hierarchy there are not twenty trâ—â— If this be so if the fountaine be so troubled or rather none at all what certainty can there be in the streame which flowed from Rome to England if of many millyons among vs there are not tweÌ„ty true Priests if wee keepe a proportion with England to the whole world there must not be among you one true Bishop or Priest And was not your Book fitly approved expressly as
Circle into which we are not entered while first we belieue the Church for such Arguments as I haue spoken of and afterward embrace Scripture for the Churches Authority and if we be forced to proue the Church by Scripture it is propter incredulitatem vestram for your incredulity and not because indeed it is needfull of itself Whatsoever you object against vs in this way will be found vpon examination to impugne the infallibility of the Apostles and Primitiue Church and to proue that Insidels converted to Christianity in vertue of such Arguments as I haue touched were rather deluded than converted 3. If any object that although what we haue sayd be true of the true Church yet it remaines to be proved that the Roman Church is the true Church 4. I answer For our present purpose it suffices that the true Church be proved to be infallible without descending to other particular disputes in this place Though somthing I haue touched already This is cleare That neither Protestants nor any of our new Sectaryes can so much as pretend to the true Church if they grant her to be infallible since they belieue their owne Church to be fallible The same I might say of the Gift of working Miracles of which our Saviour saith Marc vlt Vers 17. Them that belieue these signes shall followe They shall cast out Divells c On which place Calvin in Harmonia confesses that the grace of Miracles is promised not to every one but to the whole body of the Church And in the marginall notes of the English Bible printed An 1576. vpon Joan 14. Vers 12. He that believes in me the works that I doe he shall doe and greater our adversaryes confess and say that this is referred to the whole body of the Church in whom this vertue doth shine for ever Luther also To 7. Lib de Judaeis c vrgeth against the Jewes the daily confirmation of our Christian Faith by Miracles in all Ages since Christ saying From God we haue learned and receaved as an everlasting word and verity of God for these thousand fiue hundred yeares confessed and confirmed by Miracles and signes How then can it be sayd that Miracles haue ceased ever since the Apostles tyme Now it is evident that this Gift is lasting in our Church and in our Church only The same appeares in the Motiue of Succession of Bishops Antiquity Unity perpetuall Existence Conversion of Nations which Propertyes we manifestly proue to be wanting in all Sects In England Protestants did once pretend a Succession of Bishops whose institution they pretended to hold as Divine But this pretence is to little purpose for them For 1. It was no vniversall consent but opposed by many even in England by Scotland France Holland Germany and other Protestant Congregations 2. They wanted both true Ordination and Succession and so could not be true Bishops 3. They held it not necessary but that they who reject them may be saved and it is strang that a Church rejecting and impugning a Divine Institution can hope for salvation yea even by this they either acknowledg themselves to haue had no absolute certainty that Episcopacy is de Jure Divino orels they speake very inconsequently and vnchristianly that without them there may be true Churches and salvation Who would not wonder to reade in Dr. Andrewes the pretended Bishop of Winchester and a prime man among Protestants in England these words directed to the French Hugonot Molin Respons ad Epist 2. Petri Molinaei Quia hîc idem nobiseum c I make no doubt but you are of the same opinion with vs in this matter If without offence you can profess so much you shall doe a thing very gratfull to vs if you cannot you shall performe a thing not vngratefull if for tyme to come you meddle not with our affaires For in the condition in which you are it will be hard both to please your owne and not displease ours Neither doth it follow if ours be divini juris of divine right that either silvation cannot be had or the Church cannot stand without it A strang Divinity and fortitude and zeale in a Bishop not to dislike dissembling in a thing believed to be Juris Divini least one offend his parishioners or that it is not damnable to impugne a thing which is Juris Divini But what doth Molin answer to this Divinity Heare him Epist 3. Non potui dicere c I could not say that the primacy of Bishops is Iuris Divini of divine right but that I should haue accused of Heresy our Church which hath shed so much bloud for Christ For to be obstinate against those things which are of divine right and to oppose the Command of God is plainly Heresy whether it be in a thing concerning either Faith or discipline And besides I must haue overthrowne that Principle by which our Religion doth chiefly defend itself against Papistery That all things which are Iuris Divint of Divine Lawe are contayned sufficiently and evidently in Holy Scripture I beseech the Reader to obserue two maine Points 1. That it is an Heresy to deny any thing which is Juris Divini of Divine right though it belong only to the discipline of the Church which is very true because whatsoever is against any thing revealed in Scripture is against Faith and damnable to be defended whether it concerne speculation or practise and to hold that it is not damnable to deny a thing sufficiently proposed as revealed by God is plaine insidelity 2. That to say Episcopacy is Juris Divini is to grant that not all things which are Juris Divini are sufficiently and evidently contained in Scripture alone which is the thing I affirmed in the beginning of my second Chapter And so English Protestants who teach Episcopacy to be Juris Divini must either say that some Pointâ—â—â—ealed by God is not evident in Scripture or els renounce their plea for Episcopacy that it is Juris Divini And indeed as long as they hold it not as a Point of Faith and consequently not necessary to be believed it is all one as if they did not hold it to be Juris Divini because in this case nothing is as good as no certainty For it is certaine and a matter of Faith that the true Church must haue Bishops and to deny it is an Heresy in a matter of greatest moment and which strikes at the very roote of Religion neither can any true Church communicate or dissemble or conniue with those Congregations who deny this truth as our English Protestants doe connive and communicate with them and Dr. Andrews expressly sayes may be done yea or with those who hold it to be only probable and the better doctrine though not certaine nor the contrary to be Heresy wheras to affirme that any Article of Faith is only probable is plaine Heresy And in this Point the Divinity of the French Hugonot Molin is better than that of the English
private persons and as representing the Church musâ— be differently vnderstood c. 12. n. 80. p. 767. and seq Their authority must be believed before we can belieue what they spake or wrote c. 3. n. 22. p. 294. n. 31. p. 300. passim Apostles for the essentiall are and alwayes must be in the Church c. 12. n. 99. p. 782. All the Apostles commanded to preach none to write c. 2. n. 25. p. 131. The Apostles being the salt of the earth atheistically explicated by I hil c. 12. n. 91. p. 777. Apprehension taken for the first operation of the vnderstanding agrees not to Faith which is an assent or judgment taken in generall as knowledge often is it agrees to Faith as knowledge doth c. 15. n. 4. p. 886 887. How argumeÌ„ts of credibility may be elevated to produce certainty and in what sense they are the word aÌ„d voyce of God c. 1. n. 79.80 p. 95.96 Attrition without absolution insufficient for salvation VVhat conditions it must haue to obtaine absolution c. 8. n. 3. p. 597. seq S. Austin rejected and alleadged by I hil for the selfe same poynt and shewed to be adversary to I hil c. 2. n. 193. p. 265. and seq His advise for the vnderstanding of Scripture n. 201. p. 269. his sense of Tradition and of the practice of the Church n. 209. p. 274. c. 11. n. 26. p. 667. and seq VVhy he is an eyesoare to the Socinians c. 7. n. 123. p. 544. He is defended against I hil his forgery c. 12. n. 57. p. 749. and seq c. 2. n. 207. p. 273. alibi saepius B. Baptisme acknowledged by Protestants neâ—essary and as required by Scripture and Antiquity c. 4. n. 60. p. 389. and seq It is to be given to children by the authority and practice of the Church ibidem p. 389. and seq The difference and absurdityes amongst Protestants concerning Baptisme c. 2. n. 39. p. 146. seq It is validly administred by Iewe or Gentill if they intend to doe what Christians doe c. 4. n. 42. p. 377. 378. Baptisme in tho Doctrine of divers Protestants pardons all sinnes past present and to come c. 2. n. 85. p. 187. Beatificall vision if Faith be naturall and only probable is also naturall and may be a meere fiction c. 1. n. 113. p. 118. 119. To belieue only that Iesus is the sonne of God is acknowledged even by heretiques insufficient for salvation c. 2. n. 169. p. 245. 246. VVho believes not one poynt sufficiently propounded can haue no supernaturall Faith about any other c. 11. n. 13. p. 658. c. 15. n. 43. p. 922. and seq This proved by Heretiques and Catholiques ibidem Not to belieue any revealed truth sufficiently propounded is a mortall sinne n. 49. p. 927. I believe not the speaker wheÌ„ I only asseÌ„t for the reason he gives or for some other authority cited by him c. 12. n. 49. p. 744. alibi Bellarmine viudicated from I hil his cavills c. 2. n. 98. p. 201. and seq VVhat Byshop or Episcopus signifyes cannot evidently be knowne by Scripture alone c. 2. n. 11. p. 126. That Byshops in the Church are not juris divini is an heresy c. 5. n. 4. p. 429. seq Doctor Andreweâ— his contradictioÌ„ in this poynt ibidem Bishops haue no succession in England ibidem Bookes published to forwarne I hil to cleare himselfe of his vnchristiaÌ„ doctrines which he would never be induced to doe pr. n. 4. p. 2. C Caiphas in Chillingworthes doctrine spoke truth when he wickedly sayd that our Saviour blasphemed c. 11. n. 38. p. 675. Canon of Scripture cleered from Chill his malicious imputation c. 11. n. 22. it should be 21. p. 663. seq The Canonicalness of the bookes of Scripture is to be taken from the declaration of the Church c. 11. n. 6. 7 p. 653. falsly put 953 passim alibi every Canonicall writer wrote all that was necessary for the end inspired him by the holy Ghost not all that was necessary for salvation or for the Church to belieue c. 2. n. 136 p. 223 seq ac alibi Causabons miserable end c. 6 n. 9 p. 444 Catholiques by the confession of Protestants may be saved c. 2 n. 83 p. 185 c. 7 n. 145 p. 563 seq ac alibi No visible Church but the Catholique Romane out of which Luther departed c. 7 n. â—1 p. 522 Reasons why the Catholique Church is not to be forsaken n. 124 p. 545. 546 If she could erre her errours were rather to be professed then her Communion forsaken n. 132 p. 551 deinceps Catholiques judge charitably that Protestancy vnrepented destroyes salvation aÌ„d PiotestaÌ„ts if they hold their Religion true should judge the like of Catholiques c. 9 n. 2 p 624 Catholiques guided by the infallibility of the Church cannot be prejudiced by translations of Scripture nor feare corruptions c. 11 n. 16 p. 659 The Catholique Church an easy way to find Christs doctrine c. 3 n. 89 p. 348 She is infallible or all Christianity a fiction c. 4 n. 1 p. 352 Not Catholiques but LutheraÌ„s exposed to idolatry c. 4 n. 65 p. 393. Catholiques freed by Protestants from that imputation Ib. p 395 Catholiques prooue their Faith without a circle Toto c. 5 but Sectaryes cannot Ibid And particularly n. 14 15 p. 437 438 Also c. 2 n. 55 p. 158 Catholiques falsly charged by Chill that they hold Faith to haue no degrees of perfection c. 1 n. 43 44 p. 68 69 Catholique writers falsly cited by Potter as holding that Catholiques and Protestants doe not differ in the essence of Religion c. 7 n. 148 p. 567 Catholiques though falsly suposed to err their errour must be invincible c. 7 n. 158 p. 578 seq Causes by divine power may be elevated to produce effects nobler then themselves as also by concauses c. 1 n. 79 p. 94 Certainty in the vnderâ—â—anding forces not the will c. 1 n. 62 p. 80 seq Ceremonies vide Rites Charity Maintayned alledged and impugned by I hil either with falsification or ommitting his arguments or with some other fraud is often shewed through this whole Booke His Booke is not answeared by I hil but new heresies broached and old fetched from Hell to overthrow all Christianity Pr n. 3 p. 1. 2 Charity highly broaken by Protestants in judginge Catholiques vncharitable c. 9 n. 7 p. 628 It is ordered either according to the Phisic all perfection of the things loved or the morall obligation of loving imposed by God c. 16 n. 6 p. 935 936 Chillingworths Tenets and consequences He holds that Faith is only a probable rationall assent I. n. 16 p. 11 seq and c. 10 n. 13 p. 640 641 That to hold Christian faith infallible is presumptuous vncharitable erroneous doctrine of dangerous and pernicious consequence c. 1 n. 1 p. 37 And that it excludes all progress in charity n. 71 p. 86 That Faith may stand with Heresie I. n. 51 p. 35 He rejects grace
wherin this separation of one part of the Church from another consists But seing you distinguish Schisme from Heresy and affirme that separation by Heresy consists in Errours against any necessary Article of Faith Schisme must consist in a separation from the externall Communion of that Church with which one agrees in all necessary Articles of the Christian Faith and consequently agreement in Fundamentall Articles is not sufficient to constitute men members of one Church seing it may stand with Schisme taken in the most proper sense which you say separates one part of the Church from another And therfore whosoever divides himselfe from the externall Communion of the Church is divided from the Church it selfe and so your Memorandum that to leaue the Church and to leaue the externall Communion of a Church is not the same thing is a meere vngrounded speculation Here also that which I haue often told you offers it selfe to be insinuated that Errours in Points not Fundamentall sufficiently propounded as testifyed by God become Fundamentall that is damnable and are true Heresyes as Potter grants and as I shewed out of your owne words they who are guilty of such Errours obserue not that Obedience which is required as a Condition for remission of sins and salvation and yet you require Obedience as one of those requisites which constitute a man a member of the Church and therfore a separation by Errours in Points not Fundamentall is not pure Schisme but more it is Heresy and separates a man from the Church though he beleeue all Points which are Fundamentall of themselves so that as I saied agreement in such Points which are Fundamentall of themselves is in no wise sufficient to make one a member of the Church yea and beside agreement in beliefe both of Fundamentall and not Fundamentall Points it is essentially required that he be not divided from her externall Communion and yourselfe say Pag 264. N. 30. A causlesse separation from the externall Communion of any Church is the sin of Schisme which were not true if the same beliefe of all Fundamentalls yea and vnfundamentalls also were of it selfe sufficient to denominate and conserue one a member of the Church For then he should remaine such a member by that beliefe alone though he did causelesly divide himselfe from the externall Communion of the Church And therefore we must conclude out of your owne grounds against your last Memorandum that to leaue the Church and to leaue the externall Communion of a Church is the same thing And thus having confuted your Remembrances wherby you pretended to excuse yourselfe from Schisme let vs now see what you can object against vs. 76. Object 1. You say Pag 132. N. 11. If you would at this tyme propose a forme of Liturgy which both side shold lawfull and then they would not joyne with you in this liturgy you might haue some colour then to say they renounce your Communion absolutely 77. Answer What a Chimera do you fancy to yourselfe and propose to vs First you must suppose that the Roman Church holds all essentiall and Fundamentall Points of Faith otherwise she should cease to be a Church and so you could not communicate with Her as with a Church neither could there be any Liturgy common to her and Protestants and then why do you so often blame Charity Maintayned for affirming that Potter acknowledged vs to hold all substantiall and Fundamentall Points of Faith which now yourself must suppose and also Pag 269. N. 45. you say That men of different opinion may be menbers of the same Church Provided that what they forsake be not one of those things wherin the essence of the Church consists And therfore no forme of Liturgy can be sufficient to warrant your joyning with vs if we erre in Points Fundamentall of themselves 78. Secondly Seing no Forme of Liturgy could be lawfull in case it did containe any Fuudamentall Errour and that you confesse it impossible to know what Points in particular be Fundamentall it followes that you cannot know what forme of Liturgy is lawfull and so in practise you cannot communicate with one another nor with vs nor with any Church at all as not knowing whether in their Liturgy there be not contained some Fundamentall Errours yea no man can frame any set Forme to himselfe but may feare least it containe some such Errour Neither can you avoide this difficulty by saying as you are wont to doe that whosoever believes all that is evident in Scripture is sure to belieue all Fundamentall Points For we speake not now in generall of what every one believes for himselfe but in practise of a particular Forme of Liturgy wherin he communicates with others which cannot be lawfull if it containe any Fundamentall Errour as well it may for ought you can know who profess not to know what errours be Fundamentall vnless for a short Forme of Liturgy you will propose the whole Bible which in your grounds is the only way to know all Fundamentall Points 79. Thirdly Some Points may be necessary for the constitution of a Church which are not necessary for every private person as for example to know who are lawfull Governous of and Ministers in the Church and consequently by whom the publike Liturgy is to be lawfully read to the people For seing we belieue your pretended Bishops in England to be no more then meere Lay men as those Protestants who stand for Episcopacy must hold the same of Ministers not ordayned by Bishops what Liturgy can be found common to Catholiks and Protestants or to Protestants among themselves seing there can be no agreement who be Lawfull Ministers for celebrating the Liturgy officiating reading publike Service and preaching to the people 80. Fourthly I must put you in mynd that you and Potter affirme and the thing in it selfe is very certaine and cleare that it is Fundamentall to a Christians Faith not to deny any Truth sufficiently propounded as revealed by God though in it selfe not Fundamentall and therfore there can be no Communion with any Church which denyes any such Point because she ceases to be a Church Seing then you say we erre in such Points and diverse learned Protestants hold with vs against their pretended Brethren and Protestants say that different Sects among themselves disagree in such Points all these must hold that all the rest disagreeing from them are no Church and consequently not capable of their Communion How then shall all such no churches agree in one Forme of Liturgy common to all Churches Since they differ in the very essence and being of a Church which is prerequired to all Communion of Churches in any lawfull Forme of Liturgy They may be a company of men but not one community Communion or Church of faithfull Believers 11. Fifthly You teach that minimum vt sic is to belieue That God is and is a rewardeâ— Would you haue a Liturgy so short as to containe only this point for feare of Errour
Nonne Deo subjecta erit anima mea which entire submission and subjection is evidently more necessary in Faith than in Charity against which some sinnes may be veniall whereas every errour against any truth sufficiently propounded as revealed by God is a deadly sinne nor can be excused ob parvitatem materiae 50. You conclude and say to Ch. Ma. Your Corollaries drawen from it the Doctrine of S. Thomas That every errour against Faith involves opposition against Gods testimony That Protestants haue no Faith no certainty and that you haue all Faith must together with it fall to the ground Which words are either non-sense or evidently false For who ever denied not your self excepted that every errour against Faith involves an opposition against Gods testimony which is the very essence of errour against Faith that is of Heresy 51. Your N. 50.51.52 haue bene answered heretofore and are answered by this one consideration That your Faith is not raised aboue the probable motives or Arguments of Credibility which being evident your kind of Faith must be evident but our Catholique Faith is an assent aboue the saied motives and is certaine though not evident as I haue declared els where and by this meanes your imitation of the Argument of Ch Ma to proue that the pretended faith of Protestants implied not obscurity falls to the ground because we belieue with a greater certainty than is derived from the sole motives of credibility so that your Faith must haue evidence but cannot haue certainty The Faith of Protestants who pretended to be assured what Bookes be Canonicall by the private spirit must be certaine and evident and consequently not obscure and therefor Calvin Lib Institut Cap 7. Sect 2. saieth that by the spirit men may discerne true Scripture as we discerne lucem à tenebris album à nigro suaue ab amaro light from darkness white from black sweete from sower And so the Faith of Catholiques only remaines both certaine and obscure as Christian Faith ought to be 52. Your N. 53.54.55 haue bene either answered already or els containe meere sayings without any proofe That the Jewes before our Saviours tyme conserved the Scripture is no wonder since at that tyme they were the true Church and afterward it was not in their power to corrupt it at their pleasure in regard the Apostles and other converted to Christian Religion could manifestly haue convinced them as shameless falsaries But what hath this to doe with that Church which was the vniversall Church of Christ before Luther and if it be fallible and so could haue bene permitted to corrupt Scripture you can at this tyme haue no certainty of the Bible That Luther opposed the Roman Church appeares by what I sayd heretofore and is demonstrated by Ch Ma Part 1. Chap 5. N. 29. and yourself N. 73. describe the man in such manner as makes the matter credible of it self 53. You tell vs N. 56. that the Bible only is the Religion of Protestants Of this we haue saied enough heretofore Now I will only put you in minde First that this cannot agree with your Doctrine that Scripture is not a materiall object of Faith nor which men are obliged to belieue For if it only be the Religion and Faith of Protestants and yet be not a point or object of Faith which you are bound to belieue it followes that Protestants haue no Religion or Point of Faith at all Secondly We haue heard you say Pag 287. N. 82. that some Protestants tooke for the model or Idaea of their Reformation not Scripture only but also the Decrees of Councells and the Writings of the Fathers of the first fiue Ages Thirdly you say Whatsoever els they Protestants belieue besides Scripture and the plain irrefragable indubitable consequences of it well may they hold it as a matter of Opinion but as matter of Faith and Religion neither can they with coherence to their owne grounds belieue it themselves nor require the belief of it of others without most high and most Schismaticall presumption It is strang that the Approbators of your Book and other Protestants did not see a thing verie evident That in these words you declare Protestant pretended Bishops and the Church of England to haue bene guilty of most high and most Schismaticall presumption for requiring the belief of the 39. Articles some of which you belieue neither to be contained in Scripture nor to be the plain irrefragable indubitable consequences of it but to be fals and repugnant to it So that we haue reason more and more to be even amazed that such a Book could at such a tyme be published 54. Your N. 57 and the rest till your N. 72. inclusiuè haue bene answered in different occasions respectiuè Vnfortunate man Who will not compassionate your disorder of minde and pen when N. 66. you are not ashamed to say of Catholiques It is too too apparent that your Church hath got and still maintaines her authority over mens consciences by counterfeiting false stories by obtruding on the world supposititious writings by corrupting the monuments of former times and defacing out of them all which any way makes against you by warres by perfecutions by Massacres by Treasons by Rebellions in short by all manner of carnall meanes whether violent or fraudulent If Luther found the Roman Church and such as were vnited with her that is all Orthodox Christian Churches in such a state as you describe what a scandall must it needs haue bene to Jewes Turks Pagans and all the enemies of Christian Religion 55. Whosoever reads your N 73. will find that you abandon Luther and that you grant very much in favour of the Roman Church as will appeare by reading Ch Ma heere N. 32. and I obserue that you confess with Luther that in the Papacy are many good things that haue come from them to vs and then why do you alwaies deny that you receiue Scripture from vs which is one of those many good things that haue come from vs to you as Luther expressly confesses 56. In your N. 74. you involue and make things seeme obscure which are very cleare You cite Ch. Ma. as if he saied in generall certainty and prudence are certaine grounds of supernaturality which is evidently fals it being manifest that some naturall knowledg may be certaine and prudent You say also that Ch Ma makes perswasion and opinion all one And why because he saieth the Faith of Protestants is but an human perswasion or opinion as if you should haue saied when you say this or that we make this and that all one or in saying such a one studied in Oxford or Cambridg we make Oxford or Cambridg all one The truth is Ch. Ma. neither intended to make them all one or different it being sufficient for his purpose that the Faith of Protestants was not a certaine divine assent call it otherwise what you please You ask how we can assure you that our Faith is not our
conforme to the Doctrine and Discipline of the Church of England Neither can you answer that your Arguments proceed only against the ground we goe on that intention of the Minister is necessary to the validity of Sacraments For if indeed it be not necessary then you must grant that those vncertaintyes which you exaggerate against our Baptisme Ordination c are but imaginary feares as yourself say Pag 358. That some mens perswasion that there is no such thing as an indeleble Character hinders them not from having it if there be any such thing no more than a mans perswasion that be has not taken Physick or Poyson will make him not to haue taken it if he has Though by your leaue this instance of Physick c is not convincing because they who deny an indeleble Character may perhaps out of an obstinate loue to their Heresy and hatred against our Doctrine resolve and intend rather not to receiue the Sacrament than to admit any thought that there is such a thing as a Character which you call a creature of our owne making a fancy of our oâ—ne Imagination and then really they receaue neither Character nor Sacrament and so if intention be not necessary the want of it cannot possibly make any Sacrament invalide If it be necessary you haue destroyed your owne Hierarchy while you impugne ours vpon this ground that we hold the intention of the Minister to be necessary Nay seing not only all Catholikes but some learned Protestants also teach intention to be necessary at least you cannot be sure that it is not so and then againe you must either renounce your owne Objections or vndermine and make doubtfull your Hierarchy Which you must do also in another respect For though you take our Catholique Doctrine about the necessity of intention as one ground of vncertainty for the validity of our SacrameÌ„ts yet you mention other Points which are common to vs and Protestants as that determinate Matter and Forme are essentiall to Sacraments and your English Church in particular in the Administration of Baptisme expressly saith If they which bring the infants to the Church do make such vncertaine answers to the Priests questions as that it cannot appeare that the child was baptized with water in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost which are essentiall parts of Baptisme then let the Priest baptise it in Forme aboue writteâ— concerning Publike Baptisme c And Pag 76. N. 64. You say To be certaine that one is a Priest he must know first that he was baptized with due Matter 2. With the due Forme of words which he cannoâ— know vnless he were both present and attentiue And N. 65. He must vndertake to know that the Bishop which ordayned him Prtest ordayned him compleatly with due Matter and Forme And N. 60. He must vndertake to know that the Bishop which made him Priest was a Priest himself And N. 67. He must protend to know the same of him that made him Priest even vntill he comes to the very fountaâ—ne of Priesthoed For take any one in the whole traine and Su cession of Ordainers and suppâ—se him by reason of any defect only a supposed and not a true Priest then according to your Doctrine and according to the Doctrine of Protestants also if the defect fall vpon the Matter or Forme he could not giue a true but only a supposed Priesthood and they that receyve it of him and againe they that derive it from them can giue no better than they receyved receyving nothing but a name and shadow can give nothing but a name and shadow and so from age to age from generation to generation being equivocall Fathers beget only equivocall Sons Thus you And it is Gods just judgmeÌ„t that the certainty aÌ„d validity of ProtestaÌ„ts OrdinatioÌ„s aÌ„d their whole Hierarchy of Bishops should be made questionable seing they could endure the publishing of your Booke wherin the certainty of Christian Faith is denyed 31. But now to say somthing by this occasion concerning the Intention in administration of Sacraments whatsoever you are pleased to say yet in true judgment there is less danger of any defect in that behalf than in any other for example of Matter or Forme which may be vitiated both by the malice of the Minister and also against his will wheras a due Intention is wholly in his owne power and will and as I may say costs him nothing and we suppose him to be a man not a Divell delighting in the damnation of Soules without any self interest or if in your Charity you will suppose him to be so full of malice it is easy for him to vitiate the Forme For seing the validity of the Sacrament doth not oblige him to speake with a voice loud and audible to others he may pretend to speak the forme secretly and yet either say nothing at all and so omit the Forme or els say somthing els or if he pronounce most of the words audibly he may with an vnder-voyce interpose some words which will destroy the Forme as if for example he say openly I Baptize the and secretly put in this word Not in the Name of the Father c And this he may be induced to doe by your doctrine that Intention is not necessary and so the want of it will not invalidate the Sacrament and therfoâ— to be sure of some defect to be committed in that which is essentially necesary even in the opinion of Protestants he will procure to corrupt the matter oâ— forme or both 32. Besides as I began to say aboue some chief learned Protestants teach the necessity of Intention in the Ministers of Sacraments Pag 326. N. 3. you stile Mr. Hooker a Protestant Divine of great Authority and no way singular in his opinions and yet this very man who you say is not singular in his Opinions in his sift Booke of Ecclesiasticall Policy Sect 58. sayth That in as much as Sacraments are Actions religious and mysticall which nature they haue not vnless they proceed from a serious meaning and what every mans private mynd is as we cannot know so neither are we bound to examine therfor alwayes in these cases the knowne inof the Church generally doth suffice and where the contrary is not manifest we may presume that he which outwardly doth the worke hath inwardly the purpose of the Church of God Consider how this your Divine of great Authority affirmes that Sacraments cannot be so much as religious and mysticall actions which are Attributes essentiall to Sacraments vnless they proceede from a serious meaning and that this meaning hath noe difficulty seing it suffices that one intend to exercise that Action as Christians are wont to doe which intention we may in a manner say a man cannot chuse but haue For though he were a Pagan yet if he intended to do what Christians are wont to doe in that particular action it were sufficient Covell also in
knowledge of Scripture Do not these words speake of the first Principle among Christians who alone receiue Scripture and not of Principles in Metaphysicke Mathematicke c which were nothing to the purpose Or who ever dreamed that Scripture could be the most knowne in all sciences seing it is not knowne by any naturall science but depends on Divine Revelation Yea doth not Ch Ma expressly say That if Potter meane Scripture to be one of those Principles which being the first and most knowne in all sciences cannot be Demonstrated by other Principles He supposes that which is in question Which words declare That Scripture is none of those Principles which are most knowne either in all naturall sciences or in Christianity 16. Out of what hath beene sayd very often it is easy to answer and retort all that you haue in all your sections till the N. 62. For to vs who belieue the Church of God to be infallible diversity of Tranlations or corruptions can bring no harme seeing we are sure that the Church can neverapproue any false Translation or corruption nor ground vpon them any Point of Faith But for you who deny the infallibility of the Church and rely vpon Scripture alone false Translations or corruptions may import no less than the losse of your soules by being led into some damnable errour or left in ignorance of some Point necessary to salvation For to rely vpon Scripture alone and yet not to know with certainty what Scripture in particular is Canonicall and incorrupted is to take away all certainty from it and from the Faith of Protestants grounded on it alone The Church did exist before any Scripture was written and must last although we should imagine that all Scripture were lost as some say it happened to the Old Testament at least it lay hid Only I must note for answer to your N. 58. and 59. that Catholikes object to Protestants not only difference of Translations of which you speake N. 59. but that one of them most deeply condemnes the Translation of the other as Ch Ma Pag 52. N. 16. sets downe at large As for the vulgate Translation approved by the sacred Councell of Trent we are sure that it can containe no errour against Faith and for diverse Readings we are certaine that the Church can never approue any one that is false or settle any doctrine vppon it as I sayd even now But to treate at large of this Translation would require a Uolume and is not for this tyme for my or even your purpose In your N. 61 you pretend to make good or excuse Luther who in the Text where it is said Rom 3.28 We account a man to be justifyed by Faith translates justifyed by Faith Alone and in stead of proving you only ask What such great difference is there between Faith without the works of the Law and Faith alone without the works of the Law Or why does not without Alone signifie all one with Alone Without Answer there is as great difference between those two Propositions as betwene Truth and Falshood That a man is justifyed by Faith without the works of the Law is a truth believed both by Catholiques and Protestants for both of vs belieue that Faith concurres to justification But that other Proposition A man is justifyed by Faith alone without the works of the Law signifyes that we are not justifyed by the works of the Law but by Faith alone that is by nothing but by Faith which is false and excludes justification by Hope Charity and works of Christian piety and accordingly Luther being admonished of this shamefull falsification answered poenitet me quod non addiderim illas duas voces omnibus omnium vz. sine omnibus operibus omnium legum Besides it is strang you will defend this falsification of Alone seing Pag 406. N. 32. you wish that those Chapters of S. Paul which intreat of justification by Faith without the works of the Law were never read in the Church but wheÌ„ the 13. Chap of the 1. Epist to the Corinth Concerning the absolute necessity of Charity should be to prevent misprision read togeather with theÌ„ But then good Sr. what danger of misprision must it needs be when people shall think S. Paul spoke of Faith Alone as Luther makes him speak To this may be added what you haue Pag 218. N. 49. of the danger of justification by Faith alone Neither I nor others with whom I haue confered can make any sense of your other workes Or why does not Without c. The translation of Zuinglius This signifyes my Body in stead of This is my Body is rejected by Protestants themselves where of see Brereley Tract 2. Cap 3. Sect. 9. Subd 3. 17. In your N 62. till the 80 inclusiue you vainly triumph as if you did invincibly proue that according to our Groundes mens salvation depends vpon vncertaintyes All which I haue answered at large hertofore 18. Concerning your N. 83 I desire the Reader to consider what Charity Maintayned recites out of Dr Couell about our vulgate Tanslation of Scripture and he will find that your Answer to that particular is but a vaine speculation and that he supposes the Translation which is called the Bishops Bible and is approved in England to be the best as coming neerest to the vulgate which had been no proofe at all vnless he had also supposed the Vulgate to be the best all things considered and so made it a Rule to Judge of the goodness and quality of that English Translation 19. To your N. 86. I answer that if Dr Field when he saith in his Treatise of the Church in his Epistle Dedicatory to the L. Archbishop Seeing the Controversyes of Religion in our tymes are growne in number so many and in nature so intricate that few haue tyme and leasure fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine them what remayneth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to search out which among all the societyes in the world is that blessed Company of holy Ones that how should of Faith that Spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may imbraâ—e her Communion follow her directions and rest in her judgment If I say Dr. Field did not thinke of any company of Christians invested with such Authority from God that all men were bound to receiue their decrees as you say he did not I can only say that when he spoke of searching out that Blessed Company of holy Ones c he spoke of a Chimera or of a thing impossible and yet he saith that there remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence only this that they search out which among all the societyes in the world is that Blessed Company of holy Ones c which had bene nothing els but to bring men to desperation by prescribing one only meanes for salvation and that an
In your N. 21. you endeavour to answer some Fathers alledged by Ch. Ma. N. 18. to proue that separation from the visible Church is a mark of Heresie namely Uincentius Lirinensis saying Lib. Advers Her Chap. 34. who ever began heresies who did not first separate himself from the Vniversality Antiquity and Consent of the Catholique Church And S. Prosper Dimid Temp. Chap. 5. A Christian communicating with the Catholique Church is a Catholique and he who is divided froâ—â— her is an Heretique and Antichrist S. Cyprian Lib. de Vnit. Eccles. Not we departed from them but they from vs and since Heresies and Schismes are bred afterwards while they make themselves divers conventicles they haue forsaken the head and Origen of truth 20. To these Authorityes you answer That the first and last are meerely impertinent neither of them affirming or intimating that separation from the present visible Church is a mark of Heresy and the former speaking plainly of separation from vniversality Consent and Antiquity And lastly the latter part of Prospers words cannot be generally true according to your owne grounds For you say a man may be divided from the Church vpon mâ—ere Schisme without any mixture of Heresy And a man may be justly excommunicated for many other sufficient causes besides Heresy Lastly a man may be divided by an vnjust excommunication and be both before and after a very good Catholique and therefore you cannot maintain it vniversally true That he who is divided from the Church is an Heretique and Antichrist 21. Answer I haue often put you in minde and the thing is evident of it self and still to be repeated that Luther separated not only from the Roman Church but from all true Churches of the whole world who all agreed with the Roman as also from all true Churches of many precedent Ages which if you once suppose to haue erred against the Word of God the Rule of those Fathers That separation from the Church is a mark of Heresy had bene plainly impertinent and of no vse at all For still the Question would haue remayned whether the Church of all Ages had erred as well as the present Church since we cannot know what the Ancient Church taught except vpon the credit and Tradition of middle ages till our tyme which passage if it be stopt and bridge broken we must liue in ignorance and not be able irregularly and per saltum to reach immediatly from the last to the first Besides you hold all Churches of all Ages to be fallible and not to deliver vniversally any other point except that Scripture is the Word of God and therefore it is a meere evasion in you to make a difference for matters of doctrine betweene the whole present visible Church and the Churches of all Ages and if separation from these be a mark of Heresy separation from that must also be such Yea S. Cyprian speakes expressly of the then present Church Not we departed from them but they from vs and since Heresies and Schismes are bred aftherwards while they make themselves divers Conventicles they haue forsaken the head and origen of Truth As for S. Prosper you do not defend but impugne him But I wonder you will offer your Reader such toyes as you produce for good Arguments against the words of that Saint which are both evidently true and coherent with themselves For as whosoever communicates with the vniversall Church in Faith and externall communion is a Catholique which was the first part of S. Prospers sentence so it is vniversally true that whosoever is divided from the Church in Faith and externall communion is an Heretique as S. Prosper affirmes in the latter parte of his speach and which you know is the thing which Charity Maintayned intends to proue and which makes your talking of meere Schisme without any mixture of Heresy to be wholy impertinent seing we treate of division both in Faith and externall communion though it be also true that Schisme is wont to end in Heresy as Cha. Ma. Part. 1. Chap. 5. N 3. declares out of S. Hierom and others No less impertinent is your objection taken from persons divided from the Church by the Censure of Excommunication which is a kind of Division in many respects far different from separation by Schisme or Heresy as hath bene declared heretofore at large and which is not incurred at all in the sight of God if the Excommunication be vnjust Agreable to this doctrine of these Fathers is that excellent document of S. Optatus Lib. 1. contra Parm. how to judg who be Schismatiques and Heretiques Uidendum est quis in radice cum toto orbe manserit quis foras exierit quis cathedram sederit alteram quaeante non fuerit quis altare contra altare erexerit quis ordinationem fecerit salvoaltero ordinato were there not Protestant Bishops set vp in the place of Catholique Bishops yet living in England quis jaceat sub sententia Joannis Apostoli qui dixit multos Antichristos foras exituros quia non erant inquit nostri nam si nostri essent mansissent nobiscum If you examine the proceeding of your first Protestants by the Rule of this holy and ancient Father you cannot but condemne them of Schisme and Heresy 22. Your N 22. being but a passage to the next Section I neede only saie that there is great difference between Catholiques and Protestants in order to the admitting or rejecting some doctrine of some particular Fathers seing we for interpreting Scripture and all Points of Faith acknowledg an infallible guide to whom even the Fathers themselves humbly submit but when you forsake the Fathers be they never so many the comparison runnes not betwene them and Gods Church but betwene them and every single Protestant and who will not sooner belieue the Holy Fathers for the interpretation of Scripture than such men as can neither agree amongst themselves nor with the whole Church of God And if you will but heare what your owne knowledg and conscience tells you you will confess that you acknowledged the ancient Fathers to stand for vs. 23. Your N. 23. is employed in answering some Authorityes alledged by Ch. Ma. out of S. Hierom wherein you shew the litle reckon you make of the holy Fathers since you do covertly or rather expressly tax this blessed Saint of writing over-truths and you know what it is to write beyond truth which in true Philosophy consist in indivisibili and what is beyond it must be against it The words of S. Hierom Ep 57. ad Damas. are these I am in the Communion of the Chaire of Peter I know the Church is built vpon that Rock Whosoever shall eate the Lambe out of this house he is profane If any shall not be in the Arke of Noe he shall perish in the time of the deluge Whosoever doth not gather with thee doth scatter that is he that is not of Christ is of Antichrist And Lib. 1. Apolog. which doth