themselves from Her but submit patiently to her Censures which she should lay upon them If her Censures were just they would have no reason to complain If unjust God would reward them for their Patience and love of Peace §. 23. They were no sooner separated but they heaped on the Church all the most despightful reproaches and Calumnies they could invent and to heighten their Criminal Schism to the uttermost they formed New Societies which they called Churches and therein established New Pastors and a New Ecclesiastical Ministry the very Sin for which God commanded the Earth to swallow Core Dathan and Abiron Amongst the Gifts which our Lord when he led captivity captive received from his Father and bestowed on his Church the principal Gift mentioned by St. Paul was his constituting therein Apostles Pastors and Teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate Succession There is not the least intimation given in Scripture or Tradition that this Succession should ever be interrupted Yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled these Reformers without any Warrant usurp a Power to take all Authority out of the hands of those to whom our Saviour had given it and to bestow it according to their own pleasure thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of Gods Church as far as lyes in their Power through the whole World If Christ himself had thus without testifying his Authority by Miracles dealt with the Iewish Synagogue he would not have expected belief nor been able to answer that Question proposed to Him By what authority dost thou these things and who gave thee this Authority Luke 20. 2. Yet all this our late Reformers have done without ever pretending to one Miracle Into whatever place they come through the whole earth they as far as their Secular power extends degrade and chase away all Bishops Priests and Pastors professing the Catholic Religion they take Authority to defame them as false Pastors and true Wolves they denounce Anathemas against them they incite their Subjects to rebel defraud and persecute them as if God had given his iron Rod into the hands of these Gladiators and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance No man takes his Power of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but he that is called as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. Who called these men to the Office of Preaching and governing Christians Who invested them with such Authority If we consult their own Stories we shall find the prime Ministers in the principal Cities of France constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of Tradesmen There have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual Priests once they had a Bishop Apostates from the Catholic Church whom they might employ in the Office of Preaching and Praying in their Synagogues and by that means make a shew that some of their Ministers were indeed Clergymen who had an ordinary Vocation But such hatred they bear to all Ecclesiastical Order that even these shall not be admitted into the Presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary Vocation and receiving their Commission by a New imposition of hands of Lay-Ministers In a word I should weary both you and my self if I should enumerate all the enormities of your first Reformation If you have a mind you may receive sufficient information in a late Book written in French the Title whereof is in English Legitimate Prejudgments against Calvinists in which the learned Author demonstrates by several titles as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first Reformers by want of Mission by the evidence of their being guilty of Schism by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a New Ecclesiastical Ministry by the Spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them by their peculiar most monstrous Doctrines taught by them by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their Disciples in Christian verities c. By these Marks I say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their Pretended Reform'd Religion being manifestly prejudged and self condemned §. 24. Prot. But surely Sir you will not apply this to the Reformed Church of England and particularly that charge concerning the want of Lawful Pastors We have been far from making a breach in the Chain of Succession since if there be lawful Pastors in the Roman Church we have the like in the English in as much as we received our Ordinations from Rome Cath. For as much as concerns your Ordinations I will not here enter into any dispute neither indeed is it needful But this I may confidently say That since English Protestants have especially of late by many tokens shewed that they esteem Calvinists or Presbyterian Congregations to be true though not so perfect Members of Christs Church as themselves the English Church I may say justifies but however qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of Ordinations and lawful Mission and thereby involves her self in their guilt Again though it were true that the English Clergy have received their Ordinations from the Roman Catholic Church yet sure I am that Church never released them from their Canonical subjection to their Superiors particularly to their Patriarch and Supream Pastor of Gods Church She never gave them power to change the order of administring Sacraments to reverse Ordinances of Superior Councils to expel Catholic Bishops from their Sees meerly because they were Catholics In a word she never gave them authority to alter or rather destroy the whole Religion in a manner professed in England since they were first Christians If English Bishops have received their Character from Rome yet not Iurisdiction or if that also yet certain it is that the same Church which gave them Iurisdiction can also upon their demerits and exercising it contrary to her intention suspend the administration of it which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their Innovations To be brief the English Church challenging Ordination by lawful Succession is thereby obliged to acknowledg the Roman Church to be at least a true Member of the Catholic Church and consequently her self no such Member unless the Bishops here will confess themselves to be Anti-Catholic Bishops and yet most unreasonably pretend an Union with the Catholic Church §. 25. Prot. She does in deed acknowledg the Roman to be a Member but a corrupt Member of the Catholic Church Cath. Consider Sir I pray you that the Rule of Faith obligeth us to believe the Church of God to be Holy as well as Catholic Now if the Universal Church be Holy or uncorrupt then is every Member of it as far as in its Communion Holy and uncorrupt also Which Holiness does not regard the persons whether Governors or Subjects for in the first and best Church of all consisting of the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord only there was a Iudas and a Nicolas A Church is said
thoughts to justify his Church by the Marks of Unity Antiquity Succession Universality c. nor does he pretend that his Church has any Authority from Christ to oblige him to believe her rather then any Fanatic Congregations for she her self will not suffer him to say so What does he then Truly he leaves his Church in a desperately forlorn condition he never thinks of her though she be the only subject of the Question but diverts his fancy to spy out faults and errors elsewhere comforting himself with a perswasion that he has found them though perhaps he be not able to penetrate into or truly state one Point of Controversie And this illogical Method Sir you have observed in this Discourse and as illogical as it is I am confident you cannot mend it for doubtless if you could have furnished your self out of your Anti-catholick Writers or if your self could invent any specious Arguments to recommend to any mans liking or esteem the Church of which you profess your self a Member you would not have neglected the doing it you would not have been quite silent in the only matter which you were concerned to prove Now Sir I am not desirous to take advantage against you from your past Method of proceeding Take your own time to think better of it and if it be your pleasure that we may have a third Meeting I shall willingly expect a direct Answer to my Question Why are you still a Protestant Prot. I will through Gods Grace seriously think on this and I will either provide a satisfactory Answer as you require or give you leave to conclude that my eyes are opened to see the true Catholic Church of which I will live and dye a faithful Member §. 110. Cath. Gods Holy Spirit direct you And be pleased to take this Admonition with you That unless you can find out a way to demonstrate the Protestant Church in whose Communion you have hitherto lived to be a true Member incorporated into that Catholic Church which unless the Creed be false had a being before Protestancy was heard of and so continues the same your Soul is in evident danger unless you forsake her It will necessarily follow also except such a Demonstration can be produced that without further examination all those special Doctrines which you have hitherto triumphed in as Christian Verities are certainly illusions and errours because not professed in the same Catholic Church which alone is the Pillar and Ground of Truth and whose Teaching whosoever will not hear and believe is by our Saviours sentence to be esteemed as a Heathen and Publican §. 111. And indeed to deal plainly with you it was more then you could justly challenge in the present occasion that I should have the compliance so far as to attend unto the charges and accusations laid by you against the special Doctrins of the Catholic Church for such accusations could have no place in an Answer to be made to the Question proposed in the beginning Indeed if I had now as may be done another time precisely imputed Heresie to you it might have been proper for you to justifie your particular Tenents and also to recrimimnate But it was only the Crime of Schism that I laid to the Charge of Protestant Churches and therefore asked you the Question Why are you a Protestant Now to this Question thus intended no Answer can be proper but such an one by which you shall endeavour to demonstrate that the Protestant Church in whose Communion you live is not Schismatical that it is not divided from the Catholic Church which never did nor ever shall fail and that it has all the Marks which declare a Church to be Catholic This you have not done and no wonder Since you can find no help for such a purpose from any of your Writers And yet till that can be done all other Disputes are to no purpose neither can Catholics be obliged to engage themselves in them or if they do so it is only to shew you that being evidently and confessedly Schismatics you are also Heretics §. 112. Now Sir Since I am assured you will find it utterly impossible for you this way to excuse any of your lately erected Churches from the guilt of Schism if still notwithstanding you will resolve to persist divided from that Catholic Church which has been deserted by them all my fear is that for the stupifying of your Conscience you will think it necessary to make use of that lately so cryed up Socinian Opiat I mean that desperate Principle That Schism is one of those Theological Scar-crows with which those who hold a party in Religion use to fright away such as making onquiry into it are ready to relinquish and oppose it if it either appear erroneous or suspicious Whereas whosoever shall with a true and unpretended Conscience perswade himself or but suspect that the Church requires a Profession of false Doctrins or conformity to unlawful Practises and of this each particular person must be the Iudge in sâ—ch a case he not only may but is obliged to separate from the Church and by such Separation not he but the Church is guilty of Schism Now Sir is not this Prinoiple a Preservative of soveraign virtue against all remorse of Conscience for Schism or Heresie Prot. But what would you have a man so perswaded or so suspecting Errours and Misdemeanors to be in the Church to do Cath. I readily enough grant that in such a Case the man must neither profess nor do any thing against his present conscience And consequently I do not say he must separate but if the Church for his obstinate disobedience shall cast him out he must be patient But the truth is his case is deplorable for every way he is exposed to extreamest danger If he conforms against Conscience he sins mortally by damnable Hypocrisie If he refuses to conform that is to submit his private perswasion or Suspicion to the Teaching of the Church I mean the Catholic Church his sin is yet more heynous being a rebellious Disobedience to the highest and most Divinely established Authority upon Earth from the guilt of which Disobedience no dictates of consoience how unpretended soever can acquit him Otherwise none but false Hypocrites and subtle pretenders of conscience can be guilty either of Schism or Heresie yea the prouder menace the more self-conceited of their own judgments and more addicted to entertain suspition and contempt of their Superiors the more innocent they shall be So that a full perswasion or it seems but suspition that any Heretical Doctrines are Orthodox will excuse all Heretics even the most blasphemous from all guilt and danger and moreover at the end of the account the Governours and lawful Teachers appointed by God in his Church in case the excommunicate such Orthodox Hereticks must alone be esteemed Heretics and Schismatics only for teaching Truth and doing their Duty §. 114. Indeed if he who called Schism a
fruition of Glory promised them so that all things remain in suspence until the coming of our Saviour to Iudgment Now this so tedious suspension and anxious expectation of an Object vehemently desired must needs be more grievous then a short suffering in Purgatory where probably such a delayed expectation makes the principal torment and where perhaps the sufferings of many less imperfect Souls may be less tormenting than some pains suffered in this life Yet because Calvin will not call this his fancied place Purgatory he is Orthodox and the Church only erroneous He is Orthodox teaching in a manner the very same Doctrine taught by the Church and yet men can have the conscience to forsake the Church that they may learn her Doctrine abroad in a Shismatioal Congregation Prot. Such partiality truly I cannot approve Cath. These are the Catholic Doctrines mentioned by you as evidently contradicting Scripture and invented to promote Ambition and Avarice in the Catholic Clergy And besides these other Points of Controversie there are which though not charged with such an imputation yet are esteemed by you of moment sufficient to drive you out of Gods Church Do you think good that we should take notice of these also Prot. Yes 14. Of Celibacy of Priests §. 104. Cath. The first then that I will mention shall be the Churches Ordinance touching Celibacy of Priests It is confessed by us that this is only an Ecclesiastical Constitution It is also confessed by the most eminent among you that if your Clergy would submit to such a Constitution Ecclesiastical affairs would be better ordered If they say that all men have not the Gift of Continence they may be told that in case any one of them wants this Gift why does he intrude himself into the Office of a Spiritual Pastor Who compels him thereto Yet withall the same person in his younger days had the Gift of Continence whilst he enjoyned a subsistence by a Fellowship in the University Does then his Approaching to the Altar expel that Gift or does Ordination make a wife necessary in these latter days only whereas never any former Christian Church not in Greece it self would permit any person after made a Priest to marry Even those very Councils forbad this which permitted marryed men to receive Priesthood If therefore there be among them a want of this Gift of Continence it is their own fault generally speaking they want it because they are unwilling to enjoy it and will not make use of Prayer Reading Abstinence Solitude and other means proper to continue it And will you Sir leave Gods Church because those whom God hath appointed to take care of your soul have not neither desire to have Wives Prot. Go on to the next Point 15. Of abstinence from flesh enjoyned in Fasting §. 105. Cath. As not in the former Constitution so neither in this by which the Church commands Abstinence from flesh on days of Fasting can you have any pretention to impute to our Church as we may to yours that she favors carnal affections In the former her Clergy imposed on themselves alone the burden of renouncing all even otherwise lawful satisfactions to the flesh And for this you who are nothing concern'd will be angry and forsake a Church because Mortification is practiced by the Pastors in it In this latter Ordinance she indeed I mean her Clergy restrain in some measure the appetites of the Layty but they do not in the mean time favour themselves If it were not good for our Souls to abate the intemperance of our Bodies Ecclesiastics would not afflict themselves by practising it And if it be good Laicks are too blame to find fault with it §. 106. However I cannot judge you so unreasonable as to joyn with your hot-headed Controvertists and Preachers who for these two Ordinances sake impute to our Church the teaching of the Doctrine of Devils in forbiding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats since it is manifest that these Heretics of whom Saint Paul prophesied and which appeared shortly after in the Church uttterly condemned Marriage in all as an abomination in it self and taught that all Creatures having life are composed of particles of the evil Deity and therefore to be had in execration Now Sir can you observe any affinity between these Doctrines and those of the Catholic Church teaching that Marriage is honourable in all who are called to it but yet that Virginity especially in persons consecrated to God is better And again that all Gods creatures are good and to be received with thanksgiving but yet on some few days when we are for the good of our Souls to subdue our carnal Lusts fermenting in our Bodies it is expedient to abstain from some more nourishing meats though otherwise in themselves lawful and good Prot. I am sufficiently perswaded Saint Paul never intended you in that Prophesie And now Sir it will not be necessary you should trouble your self about any other Points debated among us None of which as neither indeed the two last being of such moment as to oblige any one to break from any Churches Communion at all Since all the Doubts concerning them consist in this Whether a single Christian may safely judg himself wiser and holyer then the Church Cath. God Almighty establish in your heart a love of his Truth and Peace And now for a farewel give me leave to add a few considerations touching the general argument of both our Discourses Prot. I give it willingly §. 107. Cath. Then Sir you may remember how at our last meeting I told you that it was the common artifice of your Controvertists when they are charged with Schism to delay the examination of that most important Point till the Greek Calends that is till all other particular Controversies be debated to their satisfaction which will never be But now I must alter the expression and tell you it is not so much a voluntary artifice as pure necessity that put them and you upon that unreasonable Method §. 108. When a Catholic is examined why he is so an Answer is readily suggested to him that it concerns the safety of his Soul to be a member of that Church which from his Creed he learns to be Holy and Catholic and that the Roman is such having all the Marks by which the only true Church is characterized in Scripture He answers directly to the Question without comparing particular Tenents of his Church with those of other divided Congregations which requires much Study and learning beyond the ability of ordinary Catholics whereas the most simple are unquestionably perswaded of the Authority of their Church and that keeps them safe in it against all the captious Objections of Sectaries endeavouring to shake their Faith in particular Doctrines the justifying of which they leave to their Teachers and Governors §. 109. But a Protestant being examined Why for example he is Member of the Church of England it never enters into his