Selected quad for the lemma: england_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
england_n	bishop_n	church_n	succession_n	2,569	5	10.4652	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19952	The reply of the most illustrious Cardinall of Perron, to the ansvveare of the most excellent King of Great Britaine the first tome. Translated into English.; Réplique à la response du sérénissime roy de la Grand Bretagne. Vol. 1. English	Du Perron, Jacques Davy, 1556-1618.; Cary, Elizabeth, Lady, 1585 or 6-1639.; Du Perron, Jacques Davy, 1556-1618. Lettre de Mgr le Cal Du Perron, envoyée au sieur Casaubon en Angleterre. English.; Casaubon, Isaac, 1559-1614. Ad epistolam illustr. et reverendiss. Cardinalis Peronii, responsio. English. Selections.	1630 (1630)	STC 6385; ESTC S107359	685,466	494

speaking of the Bishops of the hereticks ' It is vnlawfull that they should make ministers who are none themselues Whereby they doe not intend that the Bishops of hereticks who haue drawne their character from the Church be not Bishops as for the impression of the character but that they are none as for the imposition of the authoritie By meanes whereof the English Bishops can pretend noe Episcopall succession from the Church of the antient Fathers as for the succession of authoritie for as much as if the Catholicke Church which was in England and in other places when king Henry the eigth came to the crowne were not the true Catholicke Church the Bishops of the Catholicke communion were not true and lawfull Bishops as concerning authoritie but only as concerning the character and by consequence neither had themselues the succession of Episcopall authoritie nor could transmitt it to those that haue taken it from them By what right saith sainct ATHANASIVS speaking of the Arrians can they be Bishops if they haue bene ordained by those men which themselues doe slander with heresie And contrariwise if the Church that was at the beginning of King Henry the eigth throughout Europe and in manie other partes of the world were the true Church this selfe-same Church hauing disannulled the episcopall authoritie in those from whom the English at this daie pretend to haue had their mission and hauing deposed and anathematized them they had no more lawfull episcopall authoritie by consequēce could not cōferr it to others And besides if that Church were the true Church the English Church at this daie which is gone out from her communion can not be so nor preserue in her the succession of Episcopall authoritie which cannot be transferred out of the Church And for the succession of the character the English according to their doctrine can in noe secte pretend to it for they hold not if they would hold they cannot doe it for as much as they make profession to agree in the faith in the sacraments with the Protestants of France that order conferrs anie other thing then authoritie nor that it imprints anie sacramentall character which is that only which in mission can be transferred giuen out of the Church And so if by their doctrine they could haue the succession of the character they are fallen frō the right of making vse thereof For they communicate with the Puritans of France hold their sheepe for true sheepe and so their pastors for true pastors and for their colleagues and fellowe bretheren Now the ministers of France are not ordained by anie Bishops and so are noe Bishops For hee saith sainct CYPRIAN cannot be a Bishop who succeeding no bodie hath bene ordained of himselfe And not being Bishops haue noe Church since as saith the same sainct CYPRIAN The Church is in the Bishop and the Bishop in the Church and who is not with the Bishop is not in the Church By meanes whereof the English which communicate with them and hold them for their colleagues and fellowe bretheren inuolue themselues into the crime and contagion of all their ecclesiasticall defects and consequentlie fall from all the rightes whereof those with whom they communicate are depriued I add to that that to shew a Church to be successiuelie and representatiuely the antient Catholicke Church it sufficeth not to shew that a part of that Church deriueth the personall successiō of her Bishops from the missiō of the antien Catholicke Church but all the Church that will pretēd the inheritāce successiō of the tittle of catholike must haue the successio of her Bishops deriued frō the 〈◊〉 of the antiēt catholick Church For the Bishops Sea is one as saith S CYPRIAN whereof euerie one holdes his portiō vndiuidedly And elsewhere The Church is one bound togeather by the cement of Bishops adhering the one to the other Now the English doe not pretend alone to cōstitute all the cōmunion of their Church nor to be all the true and pure visible Catholicke Church but doe comprehend into their communion the Protestantes of France as partes of the Bodie of their Church And therefore they canot saie that the Catholicke Church to which they adhere and wherewith they communicate to bee by succession and personall representation the same visible Catholicke Church which was in the time of the fowre first Coūcells Cōtrariwise from this that the other partes of the communion to which the English Church adheres communicate not by succession of persons with the mission of the antient Catholicke Church and consequently are at the least schismatikes it issues that the English which communicate with them cannot cōmunicate with the antient Catholicke Church for none except in error of fact can communicate with the Catholicke Church and with Schismatickes together And finallie I saie that since in all questions of Schismes wee must mount vp to the originall following these wordes of saint AVGVSTINE to the Donatists The question betweene you and vs is where the Church of God should be wee must then begin at the originall why haue you made a schisme The accompt that the English Church will yeeld of the succession of her Bishops ought to be brought to the originall of the Schisme Now therevpon I will aske his Maiestie where the first after the rising vp of Luther and Caluin began in England to separate themselues from the Catholicke Church to imbrace other forme of Religion which they now hold where was this Societie wherein there was together to be found both the succession of Bishops vninterrupted from the first and the succession of doctrine For to goe out from the Church then intituled Catholicke they must range themselues to an other Church which must haue true doctrine and true ministrie by adherence ad communion to the which they might preserue the title of Catholicke and transmitt it to those that should come after them Now where was then this Societie indued with the true doctrine and the true succession of Bishops when the English first separated themselues from the Church intituled Catholike For I will not inquire who is the first from whom she saith that the English Bishops can shew their vninterrupted succession if it be not S AVGVSTIN Bishop of Canterburie whom S. GREGORIE sent thither Nor will I demaund for the preaching of what doctrine S. GREGORIE sent him thither if it were not for the preaching of the same doctrine that was there before the last separation Of the succession of doctrine CHAP. XXIII The continuance of the Kings answere IF the succession of doctrine bee demaunded lett vs mako triall of it THE REPLIE THERE is great difference betweene similitude of doctrine and succession of doctrine Similitude of doctrine is a simple reporte of agreement betweene one doctrine an other but the succession of doctrine properly takē is a deriuation of doctrine continued by a perpetuall vnintermitted chine of teachers and persons taught And

king answeres to the first obseruation that it can not be applied to the Hipothesis proposed without manie defects For so farr is this English Church from hauing departed from the faith of the ancient Catholicke Church which she honours and reuerences as she is not so much as departed from the Faith of the Roman Church in as much as she consents with the Catholicke Church THE REPLIE I Appeale from Phillip to Phillip that is to saie from the most excellent King to himselfe for what doth my first obseruation import yea according to the abridgement that this maiestie hath made of it but that the name of Catholicke doth not only denote faith but also communion with the Catholick Church and therefore that the antient writers would not suffer those to be called Catholickes who had separated themselues from the communion of the Church although they retained the Faith thereof Now how then is it that the most excellent King alleadgeth to shewe that this obseruation cannot be applied to his Hypothesis without manie errors that he is not departed neither hee nor his Church from the faith of the antient Church For the obseruation wherein it is handled being that to be Catholicke it is not sufficient not to be separate from the Church of the Catholicke faith but also not to be separated from the communion of the Catholicke Church is it not fussicient to applie it to the Hipothesis and to except the most excellent Kinge from the title of Catholicke that his Maiestie hath separated himselfe not from the Faith if soe be he had not done soe but frō the onlie cōmunion of the Catholicke Church And if the most excellent King saith that she from whom he hath separated himself is not the same Catholicke Church as she was in the time of the Fathers and of whom the Fathers said that out of her communiō the title of Catholicke nor the reward of saluation could not be obtained must he not shew that there is an alteration happened in thinges which are of the essence of the Church and without which the verie being of the Church cannot be preserued and besides this that he must finde out and cause to appeare an other societie wherein the succession of the doctrine and of the ministrie both of the communion and of the prerogatiues of the antient Catholieke Church hath continued and whereto he hath ranged himselfe to the end that adhering thereto he may saie that he hath not separated himselfe from the communion of the antient Catholicke Church but is returned into it Of the personall suceession of the Bishops CHAP. XXII The Continuance of the Kings Answere IF wee seeke for the succession of persons wee haue in being the name of Bishops and the succession vninterrupted from the first THE REPLIE IT sufficeth not to constitute the personall successiō of Bishops that some are entred in the steede of others but they must bee entred with the same forme and with the same conditions essentiall to a Bishopricke that their predecessors entred withall Noe more then it sufficeth to make the Priests of Ieroboa Successors to the true Leuiticall Priests that he had driuen awaie that they came into their places not being come in with cōditions necessarie to succeede thē And therefore whether the mission of the Bishops which are at this daie in England be a true ecclesiasticall mission made by ecclesiasticall authoritie and with the iust ecclesiasticall formes or rather a politick mission I forbeare to dispute Onlie I will saie that there are two kindes of successions in the personall continuance of a Bishops Sea the one the succession of authoritie and the other the succession of the character Whereof it is 〈◊〉 that the English according to the principles commō to them and vs haue not the one and it is euidēt that according to their owne particular principles they cannot haue the other For there doe meete together or concurr according to vs two conditions in Episcopall mission the one concerning the collation of authoritie the other concerning the impression of the character which comes from the part of the sacrament of order which wee conceaue to imprint a Seale which cannot be blotted out Now the condition which concernes the character which we will heere call sacramentall mission may well be preserued out of the Church for as much as the character cannot be blotted out and consequently may be giuen though vnlawfullie yet reallie out of the Church by them that haue carried it out of the Church But that which cōcernes authoritie which wee will call notwithstanding the barbarisme of the word authoritatiue missiō although it cānot be giuen in the Church without the other yet it cannot be carried awaie nor giuen with the other out of the Church and may be taken awaie by the Church from them to whom she hath giuen it when she shall iudge it necessarie to depose or degrade them As the Councell of Sardica deposed Narcissus Menophantus and others who notwithstanding left not to preserue the character of the sacrament euen as the officers of a prince when they ioyne themselues with a faction of rebells may carry with them the Seale and the character of the Patent of their offices and preserue it out of the state and out of the common wealth but they cannot carrie 〈◊〉 the authoritie of their office with them And therefore when they that haue bene degraded by the Church or ordained out of the Church returne to the Church the lawfull authoritie to exercise their function must be restored to them either by a particular rehabilitation or by a publicke declaration that the Churches makes to receaue them into her communiō with the exercise of their charges which serues them for a generall rehabilitation As when the Arrians returned to the Catholicke faith the Church restored to their Bishops the lawfull authoritie to administer the Bishop ricks whereof the ecclesiasticall lawes had depriued them and rehabilitated them all at once by the publicke declaration that she made to admitt them with the function of their charges From whence it appeares that they that are ordained out of the Church and by an other societie then by the true Church although they be indeede Bishops as for the Character of the Sacrament neuerthelesse they are not Bishops as for the function of authoritie and as manie times as they shall pretend to vse their authoritie without being rehabilitated by the Church soe often they commit sinn and sacriledge Let vs consider saith S. HILARY speaking of the Fathers of the Coūcell of Nicea what wee doe doe wee that anathematize them c For if they haue not bene Bishops we cā be none And S. ATHANASIVS It is impossible that the ordination of Secūdus as made by the Arriās should haue anie force in the Catholicke Church And S. HIEROME There are at this daie noe Bishops in the world sauing those that were ordained by the Synod And the lawe of the Emperors