Ecclesiasticall and ciuill not any thing to purpose for Church or for her Pastors propounded The last out of 2 Thessal 2. 15. was wont to passe currant for vnwritten verities now it commeth in limping for Church and Pastors resolue where it shall stand and then we will ranke it in degree and desert So I would could I tell where to finde them they walke in tenebris I cannot speake with them by cleare day-light In briefe what they affirme I professe I cannot tell I know many things which they affirme in those remembred bookes and passages but what the man here meaneth I can but guesse at so dissolute and at randome are his quotations as if to name and muster vp some Fathers were enough as I can coniecture so come I to them if I misse I must haue better information hereafter Gregorie Nazianz. in Oratione excusat saith somewhat I resolue of and to some purpose but what I certainely doe not know nor yet which Oration is by him intended For I finde not any vnder that title in Billius whom these men follow vnlesse it be one of his Apologies In the former of which two I finde somewhat that may looke that way this In Ecclesijs constituit vt alij pascantur pareant quibus videlicet id conducit ac cum sermone tum opere ad officium diriguntur alij autem ad Ecclesiae perfectionem Pastores ac magistri sunt qui virtute coniunctioneque ac apud Deum familiaritate vulgo sublimiores sunt rationem animae ad corpus aut mentis ad animam obtinentes A thing reasonable profitable and of absolute necessitie for the being of a Church to haue a distinction of Pastors and People some to teach some to be taught to leade to be led to rule to obey a thing established practised and defended in England no otherwise then was in the Primitiue Church and is in the Church of Rome at this day Vnlesse wee can see more shewed vs in Gregory Nazianzene we haue seene but little vnto any purpose yet and other thing then this I know not Tertullian next to be seene against Heretickes prescribeth the rule of Faith so doe we appealeth to the first institution of the Catholicke Church of Christ in his Apostles and to their Doctrine then taught and deliuered and so doe wee aboue all primerily thereto he descendeth vnto Succession so will we Not any prescription insisted vpon by Tertullian but I embrace it and dare appeale vnto it and stand to the award thereof Ex fide personas approbantes non ex personis fidem Is this that which he would haue with Tertul. out of Chapter 21. What Christ reuealed vnto his Apostles to be preached I will prescribe that it ought to be proued no otherwise then by testimony of those Churches which were first founded by the Apostles in their preaching partly by word of mouth and partly afterward by writing If this be the place of Tertullian meant by the Gagger then Currat a Gods name we accept the Condition and ioyne issue and come on with Tertullian as it insueth Si haec ita sunt If this be so it must needs be that all Doctrine which concordeth with those Apostolicall mother and originall Churches is true as being that selfe-same which the Churches receiued from the Apostles they from Christ Christ from God Whatsoeuer other Doctrine is beside this is false against the truth of the Apostles Christ and God Thus he thus we I desire no other Iudge or better triall ioyne issue when you will or when you dare I accept the Condition for any point controuerted betwixt the Church of England and Rome at this day for 500. yeeres after Christ at least Discipulus magistrum Cyprian commeth next to be seene in his 55. Epistle or as your Authors suggest it Lib. 1. Epist 3. In which Epistle I cou'd pitch vpon places moe then one that happily you may entend for they looke this way but that which is purposed I suppose is this in the second sect Actum est de Episcopatus vigore de Ecclesiae gubernandae sublimi ac divinâ potestate The rather because the Texts of Scripture here cited are by Pamelius the Roman Scholiast there applyed though to no purpose For it is the receiued Doctrine of the Church of England that in the office of a Bishop there should be that vigor as he calleth it and that the Calling it selfe is Diuine and an high calling Nor doth any Papist liuing more respect and approue that saying of Saint Cyprian in the same Epistle Sect. 19. then our Church of England doth Non est ad hoc deponenda Catholicae Ecclesiae dignitas c. The honor and the dignity of the Catholick Church is not to be abased so farre nor the vnspotted maiesty of the Flocke of Christ or Priestlike power and authority to be so deiected that men consisting out of the Church should dare professe they will passe censure vpon a Bishop of the Church That Heretickes should presume to censure Christians wounded men iudge the sound lapsed men those that neuer fell guilty persons iudge the Iudge Impious Sacrilegists the Priests This you approue so doe we To what end doe you will vs see Saint Cyprian Or Saint Augustine against Cresconius the Donatist if yet wee could tell where in speciall and what to see is this that which you meane Cap. 33. We vphold the truth of Scripture when we doe that which the vniversall Church commandeth recommended by authority of the Scriptures so farre as that because the Scripture cannot deceiue a man that would not willingly erre in this question obscure should goe and enquire what the Church saith of it If this be the place as in all likelihood it is we subscribe vnto it with all our hearts For in Diuinity Questions Controuersi Iuris there must bee a Iudge to determine that wee say is the Church whether part contending hath Law right that is consent of Scripture vpon his side and we professe with the same Saint August in his 118. Disputare contra id quod vniuersa Ecclesià sentit insolentissimae est insaniae A most in solent franticke foole were he that would dispute against the tenent of the vniuersall Church Sir bring vs to the triall and gagge vs if you can with this resolution of Saint Augustine belye vs not for our opinions against your knowledge But all this while wee haue seene in the Fathers what wee could finde or imagine yet wee neuer saw cleerely till the close Drinke was your arrand but draffe would you haue your plea hath beene for the Church and Pastors your intent was meerely for the Pope for so Saint Anselme Lib. de Incarnat cap. 1. written vnto Pope Vrban saith vnto him Vnto no other is more rightly referred to be corrected whatsoeuer ariseth in the Church against the Catholicke Faith What is this saying of S. Anselme vnto vs in matters of faith
Pharises doe your Church 1 Pet. 2. 9. The Church is styled a chosen generation a royall Priesthood an holy nation a peculiar people glorious titles but nothing to this They cannot erre Iohn 17. 17. Gods word is truth I graunt But is Gods Word euer in the mouth of man The Apostles were sanctified and that in Gods truth according vnto Christs Prayer Yet after this Prayer Peter went not right when Saint Paul reproued him he fell and that foulely in denying Christ That which is sanctified is accepted not euer so sanctified as without spot As for 1 Cor. 11. 25. if the Institution or rather Commemoration of the institution of the holy Communion be a proofe sufficient that the Church cannot erre wee yeeld the cause if nothing to purpose what meant this idle pate to range it heere What the man would say in Psalm 101. 23. 20. or whether hee would send vs after mistaking there I cannot tell and till then I cannot answere For not so much as neere thereabout is ought to purpose of not erring Ephes 2. 20. Wee reade that they were built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets And what then Could they not erre Dare you say so They could for they haue and are shaken off from that foundation but so long as they stood on fast they erred not holding one Faith one Lord one Baptisme Eph. 4. 5. which if you and we doe at this day by your owne argument auoid it if you can we erre not As for one heart and one soule of the belieuers Act. 4. 32. it is in reference of loue one to another not in vnity of Doctrine all with one another And yet there were differences in that vnion for example sake inter Paul and Barnabas and might be disproportion in their Doctrine as dissimilitude in the habitude and condition of those sheepe in one sheepe-fold vnder one Shepheard and yet all heare the Shepheards voyce Iohn 10. 16. and hee that will not heare some of those Sheepe Luc. 10. 16. be taxed for not regarding the Shepheard when as yet for all that some of those Sheepe be gone astray To conclude The Church cannot erre neither collectiue nor representatiue Thus your Masters distinguish the termes of this question that goe workman-like and not like you clutteringly to worke So they so wee In the largest extent not erre at all Secondly not erre in poynts of Faith For in matters of fact they confesse errour Faith is fundamentall or accessory There none is here error may accrew Fathers to be seene you afford vs none Not because there are none but because your reading could supply none Who take vp all vpon retaile and credit hauing so small store at home The Church cannot erre is most true and the Church may erre is as true each part considered as it ought V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible IT may be some priuate opinions haue runne vpon inuifibility of the Church which are no doctrinall decisions nor to be imputed vnto the resolued Doctrine of the Protestants that are of another minde Nunquam est quod nusquam videtur That which cannot be seene if it be seeable is no where at all nor in being For as Saint Augustine well said Quo modo confidimus ex diuinis liter is accepisse nos Christum manifestum si non accepimus Ecclesiam manifestam How is it possible wee should hope to haue Christ manifest in Scripture except wee haue likewise the Church manifest Therefore on all hands it is resolued the Church hath euer beene visible since there was a Church In England especially how can this fellow impute inuisibility to vs who claime and proue a succession and therefore needes a visibilitie from the time of the Apostles If any doe thinke otherwise or cannot doe this we vndertake no patronage at all of them The Church is a City seated on a Hill which is naturally visible though in a fogge or mist not discerned There euer was and will be a Church vnto whom complaints may be made though the Church doth not euer heare complaints Those that haue fell vpon an inuisibility may perhaps be tollerated if well interpreted and vnderstood For euen the visible Church in her more noble parts may be said to be inuisible First the Saints triumphant and now regnant with Christ are parts of the Church in largest extent Who being in Heauen are vnknowne their persons proprieties and indowments The Saints militant her more excellent parts on Earth according to her more royall indowments the Elect according vnto purpose of Grace are knowne onely vnto God alone the searcher of secrets and decipherer of thoughts Such as be secret occultò intus are there not visible vnto man In this sence in regard of these parts the Church is and is esteemed inuisible and so held euen of the Papists themselues Otherwise then so wee doe not speake of inuisibility So that the man must fall foule with his owne part or be at warre with his owne wits Moderate men on both sides confesse this controuersie may cease Et quamuis praesens haec Ecclesia Romana non parum in morum disciplinae integritate adde etiam in doctrinae sinceritate ab antiquâ illâ vnde orta deriuata est discesserit tamen eodem fundamento doctrinae sacramentorum à Deo institutorum firma semper constitit communionem cum antiquâ illâ indubitatâ Christi Ecclesiâ agnoscit colit Quare alia diuersa ab illâ esse non potest tametsi multis in rebus dissimulis sit Manet enim Christi Ecclesia sponsa quamuis multis erroribus vitijs sponsum suum irritauerit quamdiu à Christo suo sponso non repudietur tametsi multis fâ—agellis ab ipso castigetur As for our Gagger hee is interessed happely otherwise In standeth him in hand to vphold and foment a faction lest for insufficiency otherwise hee turne Host and sell Bottle-Ale That mustie obiection as hee calleth it of Elias may doe him some pleasure at that time I adde no more touching this proposition because it is but lost labour VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publique seruice of the Church to be in a tongue not vnderstood of all the Assistants NO doubt Contrary to our owne Bibles in such sort that if the Protestants be not gagged now their mouthes are wider than Gargantuaes and their lips somewhat like to Germans that were nine mile asunder Certes neuer so foyled by texts of Scripture since Luther went out to this day Therefore expedite tabulas Chrysippei sophi For heere you haue a singular piece of worke indeede The Church of England directed not onely by the light of Israel the Word of God but also perswaded by common sense and reason hath and hath had her Seruice the publique prayers and Liturgie of the Church in a knowne tongue vnderstood of all that are present there ordinarily This is contrary to their
great likelihood of their saluation to whom the benefit of Christian parentage being giuen the rest that should follow is preuented by some such casualty as man hath no power himself to auoid So that the most this Fellow can impute vnto vs is that In some case of ineuitable and inunicable necessity little infants may bee charitably supposed saued by their parents faith And so that of Iohn 3. 5. for necessity of water will iustifiably bee answered If it bee possible to attaine it That of Tit. 3. 5. vrgeth no more but that the washing of Regeneration is the ordinary entrance into life As for Gen. 17. 14. to admit all paralleld in Circumcision and Baptisme all were not damned that died vncircumcised nor all cast away that die vnbaptized as this Fellow himself will or must grant but those that neglect contemn or omit the meanes which may bee had As for Mark 16. 16. the very words doo support this mitigation for though Christ saith Hee that beleeueth and is baptized shall bee saued yet he doth not say Hee that is not baptized shall be damned but Hee that beleeueth not shall bee damned that being euery way of indispensable necessity this sometime tolerable the rather because we are plainly taught of God that The seed of faithfull parentage is holy from the birth which the children of Pagans are not these hauing an habituall interest and consecration to God in their parents which the other want But whatsoeuer in charitable constructions may be thought of extraordinary courses they are not for vs we must leaue them to God in whose most rigorous courses of constitutions and most sharp denunciations deep mercies are euer hidden who though he bee the God of iustice yet is hee the Father of mercies And yet ordinary waies are for vs and our children Ordinary way vnto life eternall there is none but by Baptisme of water and the holy Ghost Gag them Sir Goose that teach otherwise The Church of England is not guilty thereof XXXIIII That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholiques Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed NOT by Papists alone but by Protestants also is it called Bishopping or Confirmation not vsed onely by them but by Protestants likewise commended commanded to bee vsed Look in the Communion-book good Reader and wonder at the impudent face of this leud Impostor that dares giue the Lie vnto publick Records that dares tell the world It is midnight at mid-day for if there be then any Sun in heauen this imposition of hands by the Bishop alone called Confirmation is both maintained as necessary vsed and commanded as euery man knoweth in the Church of England Would any man but hee or some of his Camerades take vp the priuate fansie of euery Peddler and expose it to view for Protestants doctrine contrary to knowledge to conscience But so it is If it were not for such courses the poor needy Fellow would haue nothing to prate on vnto his Proselyte-gossips in Partridge-Alley The Lie is so loud the case so apparant for Bishopping or Confirmation I shall not need to say any thing but Blush for shame XXXV That the Bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ. IS but a signe or figure and no more Strange and yet our formal words are This is my body this is my bloud This is is more than this figureth or designeth A bare figure is but a phantasme He gaue substance and really subsisting essence who said This is my body this is my bloud And yet our Catechisme in the Communion-book authorized saith expresly The body and bloud of Christ taken and eaten in the Lords Supper not the figure or signe of his body and bloud which can neither bee taken nor yet eaten Poore Woodcock or Catholique Cockscomb that sendest a Protestant to seek a figure who is as reall and substantiall as any Papist Were the peace of the Church and vnity of faith which is more mystically insinuated in this Sacrament than else-where in the Materials therof both Bread and Wine so deare and precious as it ought to bee vnto such common Barretters of Christendome as Priests and Iesuites are for priuate ends this and many other Controuersies on foot might cease For it is confessed on either side that Sacraments which haue their Beeing from institution are signes of Gods loue and promise seales of his couenant and grace and instruments and conueiances of his mercy What they intimate signifie and represent they conueigh vnto the soule In the ordinary Catechisme alone allowed and I would no other were tolerated the question beeing asked What meanest thou by this word Sacrament the answer is I mean an outward and visible signe of an inward and spirituall grace giuen vnto vs ordained by Christ himself as a meanes whereby wee receiue the same and a pledge to assure vs thereof This is more euen in your little vnderstanding than a bare figure a means and a pledge whereby c. Sir we acknowledge right willingly and professe that in the blessed Sacrament as you call it of the Altar the Body and Bloud of our Sauiour Christ is really participated communicated and by means of that reall participation life from him and in him conueied into our soules This wee beleeue and professe knowing that he is able to effect it who hath spoken it by that mighty working whereby hee is able to doo whatsoeuer he hath said We are not sollicitous for the manner how he worketh it not daring to pry into the secret Counsels of the most High We haue learned that Reuealed things are for vs secret things are for God Therfore we wonder why the world should be so much ammused at and distracted with those vnexplicable Labyrinths of Con-substantiation and Trans-substantiation which onely serue to set the world in diuision nothing to piety nor yet information As we therefore condemn that presumptuous definition of Trans-substantiation in the Laterane Councell so wee doo not like nor yeeld assent vnto that jejune and macilent conceit of Zwinglius and Oecolampadius whereby men account of this Sacrament but onely as of a bare shadow emptie void and destitute of Christ but ingenuously profess that by this Sacrament Christ giueth vs his very body and bloud and really and truely performs in vs his promise in feeding our soules vnto eternall life As for the manner how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This inexplicable that vnutterable it is faith onely that can giue the resolution Trans or con we skill not of Iohn 6. 51. The bread that I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world Therefore his flesh is bread the Bread of life Most true but not therefore his flesh by Trans-substantiation You finde not that in the Gospell or any where else Life begun in Baptisme by the Lauer of Regeneration is confirmed and sustained in the holy supper by his body and blood How I cannot explicate How