Selected quad for the lemma: england_n
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A29778
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Heraclitus ridens redivivus, or, A dialogue between Harry and Roger concerning the times
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Brown, Thomas, 1663-1704.
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1688
(1688)
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Wing B5060; ESTC R12614
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11,146
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8
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Heraclitus Ridens Redivivus OR A DIALOGUE BETWEEN HARRY and ROGER Concerning the Times Qui semel verecundiae fines transierint eos oportet gnaviter esse impudentes Cicero Harry OH Sir I am glad to see you what Anno aetatis suae 72. and yet so brave and lusty having not of late seen any thing from you I was afraid that the difficulty of finding out Self-murderer had tempted you to make upon your self some fatal experiment like the Philosopher when he could not solve the motion of the Sea threw himself into it Roger. I must confess Harry I have been of late but much against my inclinations very useless my talent and the present current of Affairs are diametrically opposite had the Church of England men been our own I could have run divisions upon the Dissenters ad infinitum I would have proved them a pack of Rebels for a whole Century I would have made the last 88 to be of a plece with this and the Invincible Armada should have been believed to be no more than a Phanatick Conspiracy Har. Nay the Dissenters are not at this time to be provoked Rog. That I am very sensible of and therefore I have endeavoured all I could to bring my self to speak for them but I find I do it so aukwardly that you would as soon cure the Rickets in one of my age as bring any thing of mine into shape that pleads for them my Answer to the Letter to a Dissenter I hope was an ample specimen of my good will bút my wit lay so much the other way that my answer was looked upon to be the worst of the four and twenty besides my printing of the Letter at large made me in danger to be brought in as a disperser of the Libel Har. I must tell you Sir Roger that Answer with some other late Writings of yours has a little atton'd for your old Sins and tho the Dissenters do not look upon you as their best friend yet it has in some measure allayed the enmity between them and the Serpent Rog. Now you put me in mind I think I have given the Dissenters in some of my last Observators a very pleasing farewel If I be not mistaken I spoke notable things for the Toleration and were it not for the reproach of self-contradiction I could have said twenty times as much Har. What need you fear self-contradiction so much Cannot you say That upon a change of circumstances a man may likewise vary his judgment as to Toleration with a respect to hic nunc R. L's Answer to the Letter to a Dissenter p. 12. and what was abominable in one Reign may be Law and Gospel in another Rog. You speak right to alter one's opinion tho at threescore and twelve I think is no very great blemish But I that have so often challeng'd the World to discover two clashing Sentences in all my Writings that have carried my matters always so even that to discover one flaw in me was as difficult as to find out Sir Edmund-Bury-Godfrey's Murther For me to speak home for Toleration would make it a harder task to find an agreement between my Works than it would be to reconcile the two Churches Har. What is 't you have so unluckily said that will make it so heinous in you to write for Toleration Rog. O I have spoke against the Dissenters such hard words that now I could willingly eat them but withal they are so full of Gall and bitterness that should I swallow them they were in danger to come up again Har. 'T is but gilding them then Sir Roger a sew Presents from the Dissenting Party I suppose will make 'em run down easily But what are these cutting Expressions Rog. Why among other things I have said That Liberty of Conscience was a Paradox against Law Reason Nature and Religion Obs. Vol. 3. Numb 4◠and should I now unsay all this the Wags would make such work with me as I formerly did with Richard and Baxter Har. Have you never an old Distinction then left to help you out at a dead lift I remember when I had occasion to consult your writings distinguishing was the best part of your talent Rog. That you must know I have already attempted when I perceived that an Indulgence was a brewing I thought it was high time for me to draw back and pull in my horns and therefore I immediately fell to work and split the hair I artificially divided an Indulgence into an Indulgence granted and an Indulgence taken into an Indulgence that shall owe it self to the favour of the Prince and an Indulgence that shall be got by the importunities of the People Observ. Vol. 3. Numb 43. By thus nicely distinguishing the matter I was in hopes to rescue the present Toleration from the stroaks of my former animadversions and in my Answer to the Letter to a Dissenter my telling the Dissenters that The Declaration of Indulgence ran to them and not they to the Declaration Answ. to the Letter p. 3. I think was a full Comment upon the Text as it stands thus divided Har. Methinks Sir Roger this Distinction is very ridiculous and I can compare it to nothing more than to a Decree of the Council of Constance which I remember ever since I writ my Pacquet runs thus Upon the Debate about the Communion in one kind it was ordered that when the Laity desired the Cup it was by all means to be denied them but if they would submit to the non obstante to our Saviour's Institution and not desire it then they might be allowed to partake of it So that Ask and ye shall receive it seems is a Rule that will by no means hold in the case of Toleration Rog. I must confess I was there hard put to it and you may be sure that 't was not willingly that I took my leave so abruptly of the Observator and went trailing like a Blood hound after the Murder of Sir E. B. G. Har. Let Murder alone when all comes to all 't is but saying that he was a Heretick and then Killing you know is no Murder Our business must now be to get off the Penal Laws Rog. Penal Laws Had my endeavours succeeded they should have been kept up to the end of the Chapter ay and as tight too as any Fiddle-string cou'd I but have brought over the Church of England men our business had been done and I think I drew as good a Scheme for accommodation as ever Cassander did or the Bishop of Spalato Had that project took the Penal Laws wou'd have been as useful to us as the Inquisition and then I had boldly affirmed That neither the Church of England nor the Members of the Church of Rome cou'd be joyn'd in a Toleration with the Phanaticks but with the certain ruin of both Obs. Vol. 3. Num. 134. Har. These Church of England men are very obstinate Rog. Ay and perverse too insomuch that you would as soon
an Inquisition into mens thoughts put their Souls on the Rack so that a Papist must either starve or violate his Conscience ibid. Diss. I perceive Harry your compassion leans much on the Popish side and you do not seem much concerned whether a Protestant dies in his Bed or on a Dunghill for if the loss of imployments be an infallible symptom of starving I am afraid there will be found of late more Church of England men put into those uneasie circumstances than there are Papists of any note in the whole Nation And since you would perswade us that the grand project is to employ all men equally without any regard to their perswasions methinks it does not at all become you in policy to give such early instances of partiality Har. Are not there Church of Eâ—gland men preferred as well as other men do not you see them daily made Deans and Bishops c. Diss. So have I seen Bulls and Bears wear Top-knots but I presume they would never have gone to the expence of adorning the Brutes were it not on purpose to expose the fashion Prithee Harry there are Knaves of all persuasions and the Church as well as the Barn breeds Vermin Har. Why are you so much afraid of Papists being put into publick Employments I 'll assure you they are not such men as you doe imagine and whosoever says they are bloody and cruel foully misrepresents them and does not draw them in their proper colours Diss. Pray Harry how long have you had such a favourable opinion of their good nature what are all the holy Candles out that you formerly told us were made of Protestant Grease at the Irish Massacre Pacq. Nov. 19. 1680. Are there no Popish Fires but that which burnt the City Or have the French Protestants think you left their Estates and come over only for the advantage of a Collection These are too bitter things Harry to be so easily digested and if I be not much mistaken I can shew you that some of them are bound by Oaths to give Hereticks no better quarter Har. Surely there is no such thing Diss. I do assure you I had it from a very substantial Author Har. Pray who is it I 'll warrant you one of our modern Misrepresenters Diss. No I 'll assure you I had it from the worthy Author of the Pacquet of Advice from Rome and certainly he must needs know best what was done there where he kept his weekly correspondence 'T is the Oath which all Popish Bishops take at the time of their Consecration My Author has it at large but I shall here only give you the Clause of it And all Hereticks Schismaticks and such as rebel against our Lord the Pope or his Successors I shall to the uttermost of my power persecute impugn and condemn So help me c. Pacq. Jan. 30. 1679. Har. And does not the Church of England with her Penal Laws come upon you and your Brethren with the same severities Diss. Pray where is a Church better seen than in her Articles and Canons And if these are to be looked upon as the Standards of her Doctrin to give the Church of England her due she in her 66. Canon requires her Bishops and Ministers to endeavor by instruction and perswasion to reclaim all Recusants within their respective limits and if some of her Communion did put the Laws in Execution against us with too much rigour the present promotion of several of those Instruments of our Miseries wou'd tempt a man to believe that what they did was not so much out of mistakâ— as by order Har. But now you have a Commission to enquire into what money was taken from you upon the account of your Religion and so in some measure you may make your selves whole again Diss. Prithee Harry why dost not send us to the Spanish Wrack to dive for Gold and Silver on my conscience I believe it wou'd be to as much purpose If you will procure us all that was returned into the Exchequer that will indeed encourage and enable us to sue for the rest and surely you do not think that the Exchequer ought to thrive by oppression no more than a private Gentleman's pocket Har. If you consent to take off the Tests you do not know what may be done for you and methinks you of all people shou'd be ready to comply since you are so much obliged for the Toleration and you know one good turn always requires another Diss. Suppose the Church of England men had complied to take off the Tests dost think then we shou'd have been such Favourites I find it was our turn to be asked last we have somthing of Original sin that still sticks to us and I am afraid when Popery comes in we that have no foundation and are as it were strangers in the land must expect that this Liberty will onely encrease our future risk and put us further into the house of bondage Har. You shall have a Magna Charta for Liberty of Conscience and that you know is like the Laws of the Mâ—des and Persians unalterable Diss. I must be a fool by thy own Maxim if I believe thee for have not you said in your Pacquet that he is only fit to be Recorder of Goatham who does not foresee thát if ever the Papists prevail Magna Charta and the Bible must down together Pacq. Nov. 21. 1679. But now I think on 't how will this Magna Charta and the Magna Charta of the Council of Lateran stand together which is so far from giving Liberty of Conscience that it will not allow Hereticks the common priviledge of living Har. Has not Sir Roger cleared that difficulty sufficiently when he told you that when they are rightly distinguished they may very well stand together for the Decrees of the Church of Rome are Religious this Liberty you are offered is a civil point Answ. to the Letter to Dissenters p. 7. Diss. Well now I find true what I always suspected that this Liberty was grounded upon a trick of state and not upon a Religious conviction of Judgment So that when the Government shall not stand in need of such Arts that is when Popery is too powerful to submit to such condescensions we must expect to be thrown off and sink again into the state of suffering Har. I do assure you it has been the constant judgment of Papists that men all ought to have Liberty of Conscience and they are very ill men and you ought not to joyn with them who wou'd perswade you to the contrary Diss. Divide impera I know is the Papist's rule as well as the Politician's Prithee Harry he that is but Eight and twenty years old has lived long enough to see their methods of destroying the Protestant Religion and it is mostly by playing fast and loose with the Dissenters Sometimes the Dissenter is a Heretick and a Rebel and all the cry must be Crucifie him crucifie him