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B11734 The vnreasonablenesse of the separation Made apparant, by an examination of Mr. Iohnsons pretended reasons, published an. 1608. Wherby hee laboureth to iustifie his schisme from the church assemblies of England. Bradshaw, William, 1571-1618.; Ames, William, 1576-1633. Manudicition for Mr. Robinson. 1614 (1614) STC 3532; ESTC S113892 55,662 116

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see_v he_o say_v nothing_o throughout_o this_o in_o effect_n that_o he_o have_v not_o all_o ready_a say_v in_o some_o one_o or_o other_o of_o his_o former_a book_n fr._n joh._n pag._n 8._o the_o ministry_n of_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n speak_v of_o eph._n 4.11_o arg._n the_o 2._o arg._n be_v the_o ordinary_a and_o perpetual_a ministry_n give_v by_o christ_n to_o his_o church_n and_o such_o as_o the_o prince_n of_o the_o earth_n nether_a may_v nor_o ever_o shall_v be_v able_a to_o abolishe_v see_v christ_n have_v appoint_v it_o to_o continue_v to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o world_n but_o the_o prelacy_n preesthood_n and_o deaconrye_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v not_o the_o ordinarije_fw-fr and_o perpetual_a ministry_n give_v by_o christ_n to_o his_o church_n but_o such_o as_o the_o prince_n of_o the_o earth_n may_v and_o aught_o to_o abolish_v out_o of_o their_o dominion_n rev._n 17_o 16_o 1._o tim._n 2.2_o rom._n 13_o 4._o with_o 1._o kin._n 23.3_o deu_fw-mi 12.2_o psa_fw-la 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virtue_n of_o his_o power_n these_o person_n thus_o call_v to_o assist_v the_o supreme_a magistrate_n may_v not_o lawful_o try_v the_o gift_n of_o all_o the_o several_a minister_n with_o in_o his_o dominion_n and_o give_v public_a approbation_n of_o the_o worthy_a &_o inhibit_v those_o which_o they_o find_v unworthy_a from_o the_o execution_n of_o their_o ministry_n &_o whether_o they_o may_v not_o visit_v the_o several_a minister_n and_o church_n convent_n they_o before_o they_o examine_v they_o how_o they_o have_v behave_v themselves_o in_o their_o place_n and_o punish_v the_o blame_n worthy_a 4._o whether_o for_o the_o more_o easy_a and_o orderly_a government_n of_o the_o say_a church_n so_o far_o forth_o as_o appertain_v to_o he_o he_o may_v not_o divide_v his_o kingdom_n as_o we_o be_v into_o province_n assign_v over_o each_o of_o they_o under_o himself_o some_o special_a magistrate_n for_o learning_n and_o experience_n to_o oversee_v and_o govern_v all_o the_o particular_a church_n there_o and_o whether_o he_o may_v not_o subdevide_v those_o province_n into_o diocese_n assign_v also_o to_o they_o other_o more_o inferior_a officer_n under_o he_o and_o his_o provincial_a officer_n to_o over_o see_v the_o several_a church_n with_o in_o such_o and_o such_o a_o precinct_n 5._o whether_o it_o do_v destroy_v the_o nature_n of_o a_o ministerial_a or_o a_o particular_a true_a visible_a church_n that_o many_o of_o they_o shall_v appertain_v unto_o one_o provincial_n or_o diocesame_a government_n though_o in_o that_o respect_n they_o shall_v be_v hold_v and_o repute_v but_o for_o one_o provincial_n or_o diocesame_a church_n 6._o whether_o antichrist_n have_v usurp_v the_o king_n supremacy_n and_o take_v into_o his_o hand_n this_o authority_n and_o corrupt_v the_o same_o have_v make_v it_o now_o unlawful_a for_o the_o magistrate_n to_o execute_v the_o same_o in_o manner_n and_o form_n a_o fore_n say_v or_o whether_o the_o jurisdiction_n a_o fore_n say_v do_v not_o
direct_o and_o proper_o belong_v to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o not_o to_o antichrist_n but_o by_o usurpation_n and_o whether_o his_o usurpation_n of_o this_o office_n can_v make_v it_o a_o part_n of_o his_o apostasy_n in_o those_o place_n where_o it_o be_v restore_v again_o to_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n 7._o whether_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n recerve_v this_o his_o right_n from_o antichrist_n and_o together_o with_o it_o happy_o take_v also_o to_o himself_o some_o thing_n also_o that_o belong_v to_o the_o kingdom_n of_o antichrist_n &_o execute_v the_o same_o either_o in_o his_o own_o person_n or_o by_o other_o together_o with_o his_o own_o lawful_a right_n whether_o i_o say_v this_o do_v destroy_v his_o own_o lawful_a right_n and_o whether_o the_o subject_n be_v ever_o the_o less_o bind_v to_o subject_n themselves_o unto_o the_o same_o right_n either_o in_o his_o own_o person_n or_o his_o substitute_n hither_o to_o he_o have_v endeavour_v to_o prove_v the_o proposition_n of_o the_o first_o argument_n whereby_o he_o will_v confirm_v the_o assumption_n of_o his_o 2._o reason_n and_o now_o he_o set_v upon_o the_o proof_n of_o the_o assumption_n namely_o that_o the_o present_a ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n of_o england_n be_v the_o ministry_n of_o deacon_n and_o priest_n ordain_v by_o the_o prelate_n there_o unto_o this_o he_o say_v be_v prove_v by_o the_o canon_n constitution_n &_o observation_n of_o our_o church_n and_o this_o he_o confirm_v first_o by_o a_o long_o tedious_a and_o idle_a rehearsal_n of_o the_o form_n of_o ordination_n of_o our_o minister_n bestow_v cost_v to_o print_v in_o a_o manner_n our_o whole_a book_n of_o ordination_n 2._o by_o certain_a of_o the_o late_a canon_n press_v subscription_n conformity_n and_o a_o acknowledgement_n of_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o the_o call_n of_o bishop_n and_o of_o their_o ordination_n 3._o by_o certain_a sharp_a speech_n of_o some_o martyr_n and_o of_o some_o other_o of_o our_o own_o nation_n against_o the_o arch-bishop_n bishohs_o &_o other_o of_o the_o clergy_n of_o their_o time_n in_o the_o relation_n of_o which_o point_n he_o spend_v some_o 5_o leaf_n wherein_o still_o he_o run_v in_o a_o circle_n beg_v one_o of_o his_o argument_n to_o prove_v a_o other_o so_o that_o one_o of_o his_o argument_n be_v as_o good_a as_o all_o and_o all_o no_o better_o than_o one_o this_o may_v suffice_v for_o answer_v 1._o that_o if_o all_o particular_n mention_v in_o the_o book_n of_o ordination_n shall_v be_v strict_o and_o precise_o practise_v as_o always_o they_o be_v not_o yet_o there_o be_v not_o one_o clause_n in_o the_o whole_a form_n of_o ordination_n by_o he_o cite_v that_o do_v necessary_o argue_v they_o which_o be_v so_o ordain_v to_o be_v true_a and_o proper_a priest_n and_o deacon_n but_o if_o there_o be_v and_o if_o also_o the_o minister_n ordain_v be_v anoint_v with_o oil_n if_o their_o crown_n be_v shawen_fw-mi and_o they_o have_v power_n give_v to_o offer_v the_o abominable_a idol_n of_o the_o mass_n yet_o this_o be_v not_o sufficient_a to_o argue_v that_o their_o ministry_n be_v the_o ministry_n of_o priest_n etc._n etc._n except_o in_o their_o ministry_n they_o shall_v execute_v the_o same_o if_o their_o own_o church_n shall_v ordain_v one_o to_o the_o ministry_n of_o a_o pastor_n and_o shall_v in_o their_o ordination_n require_v he_o only_o to_o preach_v the_o word_n sincere_o and_o to_o administer_v the_o sacrament_n according_a to_o christ_n institution_n and_o yet_o in_o his_o practice_n and_o execution_n he_o shall_v do_v nothing_o but_o sing_v mass_n and_o matin_n and_o they_o shall_v accept_v of_o this_o ministry_n and_o no_o other_o at_o his_o hand_n will_v any_o that_o be_v in_o his_o wit_n say_v that_o this_o man_n ministry_n be_v the_o ministry_n of_o a_o pastor_n because_o he_o be_v in_o formality_n of_o word_n &_o ceremony_n ordain_v to_o that_o office_n how_o much_o less_o can_v any_o say_v that_o our_o ministry_n be_v the_o ministry_n of_o priest_n when_o they_o do_v not_o only_o execute_v any_o such_o office_n but_o the_o clean_a contrary_n and_o when_o in_o their_o ordination_n not_o so_o much_o as_o any_o part_n of_o a_o priest_n office_n proper_o so_o take_v be_v assign_v unto_o they_o but_o only_o the_o name_n and_o not_o so_o much_o as_o their_o name_n in_o their_o order_n write_v in_o latin_a which_o be_v to_o interpret_v the_o meaning_n of_o the_o english_a word_n 2._o though_o the_o minister_n shall_v do_v all_o thing_n require_v by_o the_o canon_n and_o shall_v be_v every_o way_n answerable_a unto_o they_o and_o though_o the_o testimony_n of_o our_o martyr_n and_o other_o be_v yield_v to_o be_v true_a yet_o must_v he_o streive_v hard_a that_o can_v from_o either_o or_o both_o argue_v that_o our_o minister_n be_v indeed_o priest_n except_o in_o a_o metaphorical_a and_o borrow_a speech_n the_o other_o argument_n whereby_o he_o prove_v the_o main_a assumption_n of_o the_o 2._o reason_n viz._n that_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n of_o england_n be_v the_o ministry_n of_o antichrist_n apostasy_n follow_v fr._n john_n the_o ministry_n of_o the_o prelacy_n profess_v itself_o to_o be_v christ_n arg._n the_o 2._o arg._n and_o yet_o stand_v in_o such_o a_o estate_n as_o it_o do_v not_o obey_v jesus_n christ_n in_o his_o ordinance_n of_o ministry_n worship_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n as_o their_o prophet_n priest_n and_o king_n be_v the_o ministry_n of_o antichrist_n apostasy_n such_o be_v the_o present_a ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n of_o england_n ergo_fw-la it_o be_v the_o ministry_n of_o antichrist_n apostasy_n answer_n to_o the_o proposition_n i_o answer_v that_o not_o only_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o prelate_n but_o of_o a_o presbytery_n or_o any_o church_n whatsoever_o that_o stand_v in_o such_o a_o estate_n be_v the_o ministry_n of_o antichrist_n apostasy_n and_o not_o only_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o prelate_n but_o any_o other_o ministry_n else_o upon_o earth_n may_v stand_v in_o such_o a_o estate_n as_o that_o it_o may_v in_o diverse_a and_o sundry_a particular_n of_o ignorance_n or_o infirmity_n disobey_v christ_n in_o his_o own_o ordinance_n of_o ministry_n worship_n and_o government_n of_o the_o church_n and_o in_o that_o respect_n and_o so_o far_o forth_o be_v the_o ministry_n of_o antichrist_n apostasy_n &_o yet_o be_v also_o the_o ministry_n of_o jesus_n christ_n he_o prove_v the_o proposition_n by_o 19_o place_n of_o scripture_n to_o as_o much_o purpose_n as_o if_o by_o as_o many_o testimony_n he_o shall_v prove_v that_o it_o be_v day_n light_o at_o high_a noon_n except_o he_o mean_v that_o that_o be_v the_o ministry_n of_o antichrist_n apostasy_n do_v not_o in_o every_o particular_a obey_v christ_n in_o his_o own_o ordinance_n of_o ministry_n but_o which_o his_o 19_o proof_n have_v no_o more_o force_n to_o prove_v it_o then_o to_o prove_v that_o their_o be_v a_o man_n in_o the_o moon_n as_o any_o may_v see_v that_o have_v nothing_o else_o to_o do_v but_o to_o examine_v they_o 2._o i_o deny_v the_o assumption_n the_o ministry_n of_o our_o church_n assembly_n though_o it_o be_v ordain_v by_o the_o prelate_n and_o be_v subject_a unto_o they_o yet_o it_o be_v not_o their_o ministry_n but_o the_o ministry_n of_o jesus_n christ_n they_o preach_v his_o word_n &_o administer_a his_o sacrament_n and_o it_o do_v if_o it_o be_v answerable_a to_o the_o law_n obey_v christ_n in_o all_o the_o main_a essential_a part_n of_o his_o own_o ordinance_n of_o ministry_n etc._n etc._n and_o in_o all_o other_o point_n for_o aught_o he_o can_v prove_v to_o the_o contrary_a as_o far_o as_o the_o lord_n have_v revail_v the_o truth_n unto_o they_o which_o exercise_v the_o same_o but_o say_v he_o the_o assumption_n be_v evident_a by_o that_o which_o have_v be_v say_v in_o the_o 1._o reason_n and_o their_o constitution_n itself_o show_v it_o in_o that_o they_o be_v so_o far_o from_o obeing_n christ_n in_o his_o ordinance_n of_o ministry_n etc._n etc._n as_o that_o they_o execute_v the_o ministry_n and_o government_n of_o a_o other_o arch_a bisschop_n l._n bishop_n then_o christ_n of_o a_o archdeacon_n parson_n vicar_n etc._n etc._n as_o also_o in_o their_o read_n prayer_n out_o of_o a_o book_n and_o observe_v other_o human_a invention_n and_o in_o their_o church_n government_n according_a to_o canon_n court_n etc._n etc._n which_o be_v never_o appoint_v by_o christ_n to_o omit_v that_o here_o again_o he_o beg_v his_o first_o reason_n to_o prove_v his_o second_o if_o the_o assumntion_n have_v no_o better_a evidence_n the_o evidence_n be_v false_a as_o i_o have_v make_v it_o evident_a in_o the_o answer_n to_o the_o first_o reason_n nether_a have_v he_o there_o or_o else_o where_o in_o any_o of_o those_o other_o of_o their_o wrighting_n which_o he_o send_v
by_o send_v we_o back_o again_o as_o you_o may_v see_v to_o the_o first_o reason_n so_o that_o all_o the_o reason_n of_o this_o reason_n be_v borrow_v from_o the_o 1._o reason_n and_o be_v answer_v all_o ready_a in_o the_o answer_n thereof_o but_o before_o he_o pass_v to_o the_o next_o reason_n he_o run_v out_o after_o the_o wont_a fashion_n into_o a_o idle_a discourse_n nothing_o at_o all_o appertain_v to_o the_o argument_n in_o hand_n bring_v in_o some_o idle_a observation_n upon_o the_o story_n of_o corah_n dathan_n and_o abiram_n &_o also_o of_o naaman_n false_o misapply_v unto_o our_o church_n assembly_n &_o ministry_n for_o he_o take_v it_o as_o grant_v or_o as_o a_o thing_n that_o can_v not_o be_v deny_v he_o that_o our_o ministry_n be_v antichristian_a &_o that_o our_o worship_n be_v idolatry_n he_o make_v our_o minister_n &_o people_n even_o the_o best_a of_o they_o worse_a than_o corah_n dathan_n &_o abiram_n and_o they_o which_o be_v of_o their_o conspiracy_n and_o our_o assembly_n and_o worship_n as_o bad_a as_o the_o temple_n of_o rimmon_n and_o the_o idolatry_n therein_o perform_v and_o where_o he_o bring_v the_o example_n of_o naaman_n as_o bring_v by_o some_o of_o we_o to_o justify_v our_o join_n with_o our_o church_n assembly_n i_o persuade_v myself_o he_o do_v against_o the_o knowledge_n and_o light_n of_o his_o own_o conscience_n bely_v we_o &_o that_o there_o can_v be_v one_o of_o we_o bring_v forth_o that_o ever_o make_v this_o plea_n we_o hold_v it_o as_o unlawful_a as_o themselves_o outward_o &_o but_o in_o appearance_n to_o join_v with_o idolator_n in_o their_o idolatry_n &_o we_o see_v no_o warrant_n why_o for_o every_o particular_a act_n that_o in_o a_o large_a sense_n be_v idolatrous_a adjoin_v to_o god_n true_a worship_n we_o shall_v forbear_v our_o presence_n at_o the_o true_a worship_n itself_o or_o that_o our_o presence_n for_o the_o true_a worship_n sake_n alone_o shall_v in_o respect_n of_o some_o point_n of_o false_a worship_n thereunto_o a_o nex_v be_v as_o he_o speak_v the_o submit_v our_o body_n to_o a_o strange_a worship_n especial_o when_o we_o be_v not_o particular_a actor_n in_o it_o but_o only_o present_a behold_v it_o with_o grief_n and_o suffer_v it_o in_o other_o for_o the_o true_a worship_n sake_n unto_o which_o it_o be_v adjoin_v if_o this_o shall_v be_v hold_v unlawful_a then_o can_v no_o man_n present_v himself_o with_o a_o good_a conscience_n at_o any_o public_a worship_n of_o god_n whersoever_o because_o except_o it_o shall_v be_v stint_v and_o prescribe_v which_o m._n johnson_n hold_v to_o be_v a_o false_a worship_n he_o can_v have_v no_o asseurance_n but_o that_o some_o error_n in_o matter_n or_o form_n will_v be_v commit_v yea_o if_o he_o be_v a_o man_n of_o understanding_n and_o learning_n he_o may_v presume_v in_o a_o manner_n that_o in_o the_o public_a worship_n some_o error_n or_o other_o in_o matter_n or_o form_n great_a or_o lesser_a will_v be_v commit_v before_o which_o he_o must_v present_v himself_o but_o what_o be_v the_o jewish_a sinagoge_n in_o christ_n time_n free_a from_o all_o part_n of_o false_a worship_n the_o scripture_n witness_v the_o contrary_a do_v they_o when_o christ_n come_v into_o they_o for_o bear_v their_o assembly_n the_o scripture_n confirm_v the_o contrary_a be_v christ_n presence_n then_o as_o here_o he_o say_v our_o presence_n be_v a_o very_a bow_v down_o unto_o they_o be_v he_o also_o therein_o a_o unconscionable_a dissembler_n do_v he_o therein_o embrace_v the_o bosom_n of_o stranger_n breake_o his_o covenant_n go_v a_o whore_v with_o the_o invention_n of_o man_n for_o such_o fiere_fw-la as_o this_o he_o spit_v at_o we_o if_o not_o why_o shall_v it_o be_v such_o a_o sin_n in_o we_o who_o have_v not_o such_o eye_n to_o pierce_v into_o the_o impiety_n of_o man_n tradition_n as_o our_o saviour_n have_v the_o seven_o reason_n examine_v fr._n john_n if_o the_o present_a ministry_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v not_o from_o heaven_n but_o of_o man_n then_o be_v it_o not_o lawful_a in_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n to_o hear_v or_o have_v any_o spiritual_a communion_n therewith_o such_o be_v the_o ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n of_o england_n ergo_fw-la it_o be_v not_o lawful_a in_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n to_o have_v any_o spiritual_a communion_n therewith_o the_o assumption_n be_v evident_a because_o god_n have_v not_o appoint_v the_o ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n but_o man_n as_o appear_v by_o their_o book_n or_o ordination_n and_o if_o they_o will_v say_v the_o contrary_a let_v themshew_v their_o calling_n out_o of_o the_o word_n of_o god_n answer_n this_o reason_n be_v the_o very_a same_o with_o the_o 4.5_o and_o 6._o and_o have_v no_o ground_n or_o proof_n but_o from_o they_o and_o therefore_o be_v answer_v also_o in_o the_o answer_n of_o they_o and_o this_o may_v be_v sufficient_a to_o show_v that_o our_o ministry_n be_v from_o heaven_n when_o so_o malicious_a and_o exercise_v a_o adversary_n who_o whole_a religion_n seem_v to_o lie_v in_o oppose_v to_o our_o ministry_n can_v say_v no_o more_o against_o it_o the_o second_o sort_n of_o reason_n take_v as_o be_v pretend_v forth_o of_o our_o own_o writer_n examine_v the_o first_o argument_n take_v from_o the_o twelve_o argument_n examine_v fr._n john_n all_o will-worship_n be_v sinne._n to_o hear_v or_o communicate_v with_o the_o present_a ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n of_o england_n in_o church_n service_n in_o manner_n and_o form_n prescribe_v be_v a_o will-worship_n therefore_o to_o hear_v or_o communicate_v with_o that_o ministry_n be_v sinne._n answer_n this_o sillogisme_n be_v sophistical_a consist_v plain_o of_o four_o term_n except_o he_o make_v his_o conclusion_n this_o there_o fore_o to_o hear_v or_o communicate_v with_o that_o ministry_n in_o manner_n and_o form_n prescribe_v be_v a_o sinne._n for_o the_o three_o argument_n be_v will-worship_n all_o the_o other_o term_n they_o be_v no_o part_n thereof_o must_v be_v in_o the_o conclusion_n if_o so_o be_v the_o sillogisme_n be_v true_a as_o every_o sophome_v boy_n in_o the_o university_n know_v and_o therefore_o he_o must_v either_o exclude_v they_o out_o of_o the_o assumption_n or_o include_v they_o in_o the_o conclusion_n which_o he_o can_v do_v it_o be_v his_o intent_n by_o these_o argument_n to_o prove_v it_o a_o sin_n to_o communicate_v therewith_o not_o only_o in_o manner_n or_o form_n prescribe_v but_o any_o other_o way_n and_o therefore_o he_o sophistical_o or_o rather_o in_o ignorant_a and_o witless_a simplicity_n conclude_v a_o general_a from_o a_o special_a thus_o it_o be_v a_o will-worship_n to_o communicate_v with_o our_o ministry_n in_o manner_n and_o form_n prescribe_v therefore_o it_o be_v a_o sin_n to_o communicate_v therewith_o whether_o in_o manner_n or_o form_n prescribe_v or_o any_o other_o way_n whereas_o a_o child_n may_v know_v this_o that_o a_o action_n do_v in_o some_o manner_n and_o form_n prescribe_v may_v be_v a_o will-worship_n and_o a_o sin_n which_o do_v otherwise_o may_v be_v true_a worship_n a_o man_n may_v therefore_o if_o need_v be_v grant_v both_o his_o premise_n and_o deny_v his_o conclusion_n nether_a will_v it_o help_v he_o that_o the_o author_n of_o the_o 12._o argument_n conclude_v against_o the_o ceremony_n in_o the_o same_o form_n of_o word_n that_o he_o do_v here_o against_o the_o ministry_n it_o be_v plain_a by_o the_o scope_n of_o his_o whole_a disputation_n that_o though_o he_o do_v not_o express_v those_o word_n in_o manner_n and_o form_n prescribe_v in_o the_o conclusion_n that_o yet_o he_o understand_v they_o it_o be_v not_o his_o purpose_n to_o dispute_v absolute_o against_o all_o use_n of_o they_o but_o against_o the_o use_n of_o they_o in_o that_o manner_n and_o form_n that_o they_o be_v prescribe_v but_o whatsoever_o his_o conclusion_n be_v the_o assumption_n be_v false_a yea_o though_o it_o shall_v be_v grant_v that_o in_o our_o ministry_n there_o be_v some_o will-worship_n perform_v yet_o let_v we_o see_v how_o he_o prove_v the_o assumption_n fr._n john_n all_o part_n of_o divine_a worship_n and_o service_n impose_v only_o by_o the_o will_n and_o pleasure_n of_o man_n upon_o the_o communicant_n in_o divine_a service_n and_o that_o of_o necessity_n to_o be_v do_v be_v will-worship_n but_o to_o hear_v and_o communicate_v with_o the_o present_a ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n of_o eugland_n in_o church_n service_n in_o manner_n and_o form_n prescribe_v be_v such_o part_n of_o divine_a worship_n as_o be_v a_o foresay_a ergo_fw-la to_o hear_v and_o communicate_v with_o the_o present_a ministry_n of_o the_o church_n assembly_n of_o england_n in_o manner_n and_o form_n prescribe_v be_v a_o will-worship_n answer_n the_o proposition_n be_v take_v forth_o of_o the_o 12._o argument_n and_o therefore_o