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england_n	bishop_n	church_n	ordination_n	3,829	5	10.8464	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
B01998	Certaine papers, which passed betwixt his Majestie of Great Britaine, in the time of his being with the Scottish army in New-Castle. And Mr. Alexander Henderson concerning the change of church government. Anno Dom. 1646.	Charles I, King of England, 1600-1649.; Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646.	1649 (1649)	Wing C2154; Wing C2154; ESTC R171161	26,474	64

Davenant he is none of those to whom I have appealed or will submit unto but for the exception you take to Fathers I take it to be a begging of the Question as likewise those great discoveries of secrets not knowne to former Ages I shall call new invented fancies untill particularly you shall prove the contrary and for your Roman Authors it is no great wonder for them to seek shifts whereby to maintain Novelties as well as the Puritans As for Church-ambition it doth not at all terminate in seeking to be Pope for I take it to be no point of humility to endeavour to be independent of Kings it being possible that Papacy in a multitude may be as dangerous as in one 6. As I am no Iudge over the Reformed Churches so neither doe I censure them for many things may be avowable upon necessity which otherwaies are unlawfull but know once for all that I esteeme nothing the better because it is done by such a particular Church though it were by the Church of England which I avow most to reverence but I esteem that Church most which comes nearest to the purity of the primitive Doctrine and Discipline as I believe this doth Now concerning Ordination I bad you prove that Presbyters with out a Bishop might lawfully ordaine which yet I conceive you have not done For 2 Tim. 1.6 it is evident that Saint Paul was at Timothies ordination And albeit that all the seventy had their power immediately from Christ yet it is as evident that our Saviour made a clear distinction between the twelve Apostles and the rest of the Disciples which is set down by three of the Evangelists whereof Saint Marke calls it an ordination Mark ● 15 and S. Luke sayes And of them he chose Twelve c. Luke 6.13 onely S. Matthew doth but barely enumerate them by their names of distinction Mat. 10.1 I suppose out of modesty himselfe being one and the other two being none are more particular For the administration of Baptism giving but not granting what you say it makes more for me then you but I will not engage upon new Questions not necessary for My purpose 7. For My Oath you doe well not to enter upon those Questions you mention and you had done as well to have omitted your instance but out of discretion I desire you to collect your Answer out of the last Section and for yur Argument though the intention of My Oath be for the good of the Church collective therefore can I be dispensed withall by others than the representative Body certainly no more than the People can dispence with Me for any Oaths I took in their favours without the two Houses of Parliament as for future reformations I will onely tell you that incommodum non solvit Argumentum 8. For the King my Fathers opinion if it were not to spend time as I believe needlesly I could prove by living and written testimonies all and more then I have said of Him for His perswasion in these points which I now maintaine and for your defensive Warre as I doe acknowledge it a great sinne for any King to oppresse the Church so I hold it absolutely unlawful for Subjects upon any pretence whatsoever to make Warre though defensive against their lawfull Soveraigne against which no lesse proofs will make Me yeild but Gods words and let Me tell you that upon such points as these instances as well as comparisons are odious 9. Lastly you mistake the Quaere in my first Paper to which this pretends to answer for my Question was not concerning force of Arguments for I never doubted the lawfulnesse of it but force of Armes to which I conceive it saies little or nothing unlesse after My example you refer Me to the former Section that which it doth is meerly the asking of the Question after a fine discourse of the several wayes of perswading rather than forcing of conscience take notice that there is none of these Sections but I could have enlarged to many more lines some to whole pages yet I chose to be thus brief knowing you will understand more by a word than others by along discourse trusting likewise to your ingenuity that reason epitomized will weigh as much with you as if it were at large C. R. Iune 22. 1646. For His Majestie Concerning the Authority of the Fathers and practise of the Church Iuly 2. 1646. Mr. Alex Henderson's third Paper HAving in my former Papers pressed the steps of your Majesties Propositions and finding by your Majesties last Paper Controversies to be multiplied I believe beyond your Majesties intentions in the beginning As concerning the Reforming Power The Reformation of the Church of England The difference betwixt a Bishop and a Presbyter The warrants of Presbyterian Government The Authority of Interpreting Scripture The taking and keeping of Puplique Oathes The forcing of Conscience and many other inferior and subordinate Questions which are Branches of those maine Controversies All which in a satisfactory manner to determine in few words I leave to more presuming Spirits who either see no knots of Difficulties or can find a way rather to cut them assunder than to unloose them yet wil I not use any Tergiversation nor doe I decline to offer my humble Opinion with the Reasons thereof in there owne time concerning each of them which in obedience to your Majesties command I have begun to doe already Onely Sir by your Majesties favourable permission for the greater expedition and that the present velitations may be brought to some issue I am bold to entreat that the Method may be a little altered and I may have leave now to begin at a Principle and that which should have been inter Precognita I meane the Rule by which we are to proceed to determine the present Controversie of Church policy without which we will be led into a labyrinth and want a thred to wind us out againe In your Majesties first Paper the universall custome of the Primitive Church is conceived to be the Rule In the second Paper Section the 5. The practise of the Primitive Church and the universall consent of the Fathers is made a convincing Argument when the Interpretation of Scripture is doubtfull In your third Paper Sect. 5. the practice of the Primitive Church and the universall consent of the Fathers is made Judge and I known that nothing is more ordinary in this Question then to alleage Antiquity perpetuall Succession universall consent of the Fathers and the universall practise of the Primitive Church according to the Rule of Augustine Quod universa tenet Ecclesia nec à Consilio institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi Authoritate Apostolicâ traditum rectissime creditur There is in this Argument at the first view so much appearance of Reason that it may much worke upon a modest mind yet being well examined and rightly weighed it will be found to be of no great weight for besides that the

CERTAINE PAPERS which passed betwixt HIS MAIESTIE OF GREAT BRITAINE In the time of his being with the SCOTTISH ARMY IN NEW-CASTLE AND Mr. ALEXANDER HENDERSON Concerning the change of CHVRCH GOVERNEMENT Anno Dom. 1646. HAGHE Printed by Samuel Broun English Booke-seller dwelling in the Achterom at the signe of the English Printing House M. D. C. XLIX THE PRINTER TO THE READER I Thought it not a misse to give thee this short account of the occasion of the writing of these papers When His Majestie was in the Scottish army He was much pressed to give way to the altering of the Governement of the Church of England from that by Bisshops under which it hath stood ever sence it was a Church to that by Presbyteries Before he could introduce so great a change he desired that the lawfulnes of both Governements might be freelie and freindly debated betwixt two of his Chaplains and two others whom they should appoint But this would not be granted Him yet their importunitie ceased not wherfore His Majestie who proceeded not out of Passion but according to Reason was forced him selfe alone none of his Divines being suffered to come neare him nor so much as an amanuensis to help him to write undertooke the quarrel of Episcopacie before that of Presbyterie against Mr Alexander Henderson accounted one of the Prime and most learned men amongst them and as such deputed by them to convince the Kings judgement that such an alteration was not onlie lawful but also necessarie On whose side there is found most strength of Reason I leave it to thy impartiall judgement when thou hast carefullie perused and weighed these papers which I heare present unto thee from the true originall writen with His Majesties own hand Farewell For Mr. Alex. Henderson His MAJESTIES first Paper Mr. Henderson I Know very well what a great disadvantage it is for Me to maintain an Argument in Divinity with so able and learned a man as your self it being your not My profession which really was the cause that made Me desire to hear some learned men argue My Opinion with you of whose abilities I might be confident that I should not be led into an Errour for want of having all which could be said layed open unto Me For indeed My humour is such that I am still partiall for that side which I imagine suffers for the weaknesse of those that maintaine it alwayes thinking that equall Champions would cast the ballance on the other part Yet since that you thinking that it will save time desire to goe another way I shall not contest with you in it but treating you as My Physitian give you leave to take your own way of cure onely I thought fit to warne you lest if you not I should be mistaken in this you would be faine in a manner to begin anew Then know that from My Infancy I was blest with the King My Fathers love which I thank God was an unvaluable happinesse to Me all his dayes and among all his cares for My education his chief was to settle Me right in Religion in the true Knowledge of which he made himself so eminent to all the World that I am sure none can call in question the brightnesse of his Fame in that particular without shewing their own ignorant base Malice He it was who laid in Me the Grounds of Christianity which to this day I have been constant in so that whether the worthinesse of My Instructor be considered or the not few years that I have been setled in My Principles it ought to be no strange things if it be found no easie work to make me alter them and the rather that hitherto I have according to S. Pauls rule Rom. 14.22 been happy in not condemning my self in that thing which I allow Thus having shewed you how it remaines to tell you what I believe in relation to these present miserable distractions No one thing made Me more reverence the Reformation of My Mother the Church of England than that it was done according to the Apostles defence Acts 24.18 neither with multitude nor with tumult but legally and orderly and by those whom I conceive to have onely the reforming power which with many other inducements made Me alwayes confident that the work was very perfect as to Essentials Of which number Church-Government being undoubtedly one I put no question but that would have been likewise altered if there had been cause which opinion of mine was soone turned into more than a confidence when I perceived that in this particular as I must say of all the rest we retained nothing but according as it was deduced from the Apostles to be the constant universall custome of the Primitive Church and that it was of such consequence as by the alteration of it we should deprive our selves of a lawfull Priesthood and then how the Sacraments can be duly Administred is easie to judge These are the principall Reasons which make Me believe that Bishops are necessary for a Church and I think sufficient for Me if I had no more not to give My consent for their expulsion out of England but I have another obligation that to my particular is a no lesse tie of Conscience which is My Coronation Oath Now if as S. Paul saith Rom. 14.23 he that doubteth is damned if he eate what can I expect if I should not onely give way knowingly to My Peoples sinning but likewise be perjured My self Now consider ought I not to keep My selfe from presumptuous sinnes and you know who sayes What doth it profit a man though he should gaine the whole world and loose his owne Soul Wherefore My constant maintenance of Episcopacy in England where there was never any other Government since Christianity was in this Kingdome Me thinkes should be rather commended than wondered at My Conscience directing me to maintaine the Lawes of the Land Which being onely My endeavours at this time I desire to know of you what warrant there is in the Word of God for Subjects to endeavour to force their Kings Conscience or to make him alter Lawes against his will If this be not My present case I shall be glad to be mistaken or if My Judgement in Religion hath been misled all this time I shall be willing to be better directed till when you must excuse Me to be constant to the Grounds which the King My Father taught Me. C. R. Newcastle May 29. 1646. For His MAJESTIE Mr. Alexander Henderson's first Paper SIR 1. IT is your Majesties royall goodnesse and not my merit that hath made your Majesty to conceive any opinion of my abilities which were they worthy of the smallest testimony from your Majesty ought in all duty to be improved for your Majesties satisfaction And this I intended in my coming here at this time by a free yet modest expression of the true motives inducements which drew my minde to the dislike of Episcopal Governmēt wherein I was bred in

they never understand but in earnest that Question is so pertinent to the Purpose in hand that it will much serve for My satisfaction and besides it may be usefull for other things C. R. Newcastle Iune 6. 1646. For His Majestie Mr. Alex Henderson's second Paper SIR THe smaller the encouragements be in relation to the successe which how small they are your Majesty well knowes the more apparent and I hope the more acceptable will my obedience be in that which in all humility I now go about at your Majesties Command yet while I consider that the way of man is not in himselfe nor is it in man that walketh to direct his owne steps and when I remember how many supplications with strong crying and teares have been openly and in secret offered up in your Majesties behalfe unto God that heareth prayer I have no reason to despaire of a blessed successe 1. I have been averse from a disputation of Divines 1. For saving of time which the present exigence extremity of affairs make more then ordinarily pretious While Archimedes at Syracuse was drawing this Figures Circlings in the sand Marcellus interupted his demonstration 2. Because the common result of Disputes of this kinde answerable to the prejudicate opinions of the Parties is rather Victory then Verity while tanquam tentativi Dialectici they study more to overcome their adverse Party then to be overcome of Truth although this be the most glorious Victory 3. When I was commanded to come hither no such thing was proposed to me nor expected by me I never judged so meanly of the Cause nor so highly of my selfe as to venture it upon such weaknesse Much more might be spoken to this purpose but I forbeare 2. I will not further trouble your Majesty with that which is contained in the second Section hoping that your Majesty will no more insist upon Education prescription of Time c. which are sufficient to prevent Admiration but which your Majesty acknowledges must give place to Reason and are no sure ground of resolution of our Faith in any point to be believed although it be true that the most part of men make these the like to be the ground and rule of their Faith an Evidence that their Faith is not a Divine faith but an humane Credulity 3. Concerning Reformation of Religion in the third Section I had need of a Preface to so thorny a Theame as your Majesty hath brought me upon 1. For the Reforming power it is conceived when a Generall Defection like a deluge hath covered the whole face of the Church so that scarcely the tops of the Mountains doe appeare a Generall Councell is necessary but because that can hardly be obtained severall Kingdomes which we see was done at the time of the Reformation are to reforme themselves and that by the Authority of their Prince Magistrates if the Prince or supreme Magistrate be unwilling then may the inferior Magistrate and the People being before rightly informed in the grounds of Religion lawfully Reforme with in their owne Sphere and if the light shine upon all or the major part they may after all other meanes assayed make a Publique Reformation This before this time I never wrote or spoke yet the Maintainers of the Doctrine conceive that they are able to make it good But Sir were I worthy to give advice to Your Majesty or to the Kings and supreme Powers on Earth my humble Opiniō would be that they should draw the minds tongues and pens of the learned to dispute about other matters then the power or Prerogatives of Kings Princes and in this kind your Majesty hath suffered and lost more then will easily be restored to your selfe or your Posterity for along time It is not denied but the prime Reforming power is in Kings and Princes Quibus deficientibus it comes to the inferior Magistrate Quibus Deficientibus it descendeth to the Body of the People supposing that there is a necessity of Reformation and that by no meanes it can be obtained of their Superiors It is true that such a Reformation is more imperfect in respect of the Instruments manner of Procedure yet for the most part more pure and perfect in relation to the effect product And for this end did I cite the Examples of old of Reformation by Regall Authority of which none was perfect in the second way of perfection except that of Iosiah Concerning the saying of Grostead whom the Cardinals at Rome confest to be a more Godly man than any of themselves it was his Complaint and Prediction of what was likely to ensue not his desire or Election if Reformation could have been obtained in the ordinary way I might bring two unpartial Witnesses Iewell and Bilson both famous English Bishops to prove that the tumults troubles raised in Scotland at the time of Reformation were to be imputed to the Papists opposing of the Reformatiō both of Doctrine Discipline as an Heretical Innovation and not to be ascribed to the Nobility or People who under God were the Instruments of it intending seeking nothing but the purging out of Errour and setling of the Truth 2. Concerning the Reformation of the Church of England I conceive whether it was begun or not in K. Henry the 8. time it was not finished by Q. Elizabeth the Father stirred the humors of the diseased Church but neither the Sonne nor the Daughter although we have great reason to blesse God for both did purge them out perfectly This Perfection is yet reserved for your Majesty Where it is said that all this time I bring no Reasons for a further Change the fourth Section of my last Paper hath many hints of Reasons against Episcopall Government with an offer of more or clearing of those which your Majesty hath not thought fit to take notice of And learned men have observed many Defects in that Reformation As that the Government of the Church of England for about this is the Question now is not builded upon the foundation of Christ and the Apostles which they at least cannot deny who professe Church-Government to be Mutable and Ambulatory and such were the greater part of Archbishops Bishops in England contenting themselves with the Constitutions of the Church and the Authority and Munificence of Princes till of late that some few have pleaded it to be Iure Divino That the English Reformation hath not perfectly purged out the Roman Leaven which is one of the Reasons that have given ground to them comparing of this Church to be Church of Laodicaea as being neither hot nor cold neither Popish nor Reformed but of a lukewarme temper betwixt the two That it hath depraved the Discipline of the Church by conforming of it to the Civill Policy That it hath added many Church Offices higher lower unto those instituted by the Sonne of God which is as unlawfull as to take away offices warranted by the Divine Institution And

that they have distinctly and particularly exprest the office gifts and duties of the meanest Officers such as Deacons 3. That in the Ministery of the New Testament there is a comely beautifull divine order and subordination one kind of Ministers both ordinary extraordinary being placed in degree and dignity one before another as the Apostles first the Evangelists Pastors Doctors c. in their owne ranks but we cannot find in Offices of the same kind that one hath majority of power or priority of degree before another no Apostle above other Apostles unlesse in morall respects no Evangelist above other Evangelists of Deacon above other Deacons why then a Pastor above other Pastors In all other sorts of Ministers ordinary and extraodinary a parity in their owne kind onely in the office of Pastor an inequality 4. That the whole power and all the parts of the Ministry which are commonly called the power of order and jurisdiction are by the Apostles declared to be common to the Presbyter and Bishop And that Mat. 15.16 17. the gradation in matter of Discipline or Church-censures is from one to two or more and if he shall neglect them tell it to the Church he saith not tell it to the Bishop there is no place left to a retrogradation from more to one were he never so eminent If these considerations doe not satisfie your Majesty may have more or the same further cleared 5. Secondly I do humbly desire Your Majesty to take notice of the fallacy of that Argumēt from the practice of the Primitive Church and the universall consent of the Fathers It is the Argument of the Papists for such traditions as no Orthodox Divine will admit The Law and Testimony must be the Rule We can have no certaine knowledge of the universall practice of the Church for many yeares Eusebius the prime Historian confesseth so much The learned Iosephus Scaliger testifieth that from the end of the Acts of the Apostles untill a good time after no certainty can be had from Ecclesiasticall Authors about Church matters It is true Diotrephes sought the preheminence in the Apostles times and the mystery of iniquity did then begin to work and no doubt in after-times some puffed up with Ambition and others overtaken with weaknesse endeavoured alteration of Church Government but that all the learned and godly of those times consented to such a change as is talked of afterwards will never be proved 6. Thirdly I will never think that Your Majesty will deny the lawfulnesse of a Ministery the due administration of the Sacraments in the Reformed Churches which have no Diocesian Bishops sith it is not onely manifest by Scripture but a great many of the strongest Champions for Episcopacy doe confesse that Presbyters may ordaine other Presbyters that Baptisme administred by a private person wanting a publick Calling or by a Midwife or by a Presbyter although not ordained by a Bishop are one and the same thing 7. Concerning the other Argument taken from Your Majesties Coronation Oath I confesse that both in the taking and keeping of an Oath so sacred a thing is it and so high a point of Religion much tendernesse is required and farre be it from us who desire to observe our owne Solemne Oath to presse Your Majesty with the violation of Yours Yet Sir I will crave your leave in all humblenesse and sincerity to lay before Your Majesties eyes this one thing which perhaps might require a larger dicourse that although no humane authority can dispense with an Oath Quia Religio juramenti pertinet ad forum Divinum yet in some cases it cannot be denied but the obligation of an Oath ceaseth As when we swear homage and obedience to our Lord and Superiour who afterwards ceaseth to be our Lord and Superiour for then the formall cause of the Oath is taken away and therefore the obligation Sublata causa tollitur effectus sublato relato tollitur Correlatum Or when any Oath hath a speciall reference to the benefit of those to whom I make the promise if we have their desire or consent the obligation ceaseth because all such Oaths from the nature of the thing doe include a condition When the Parliaments of both Kingdomes have covenanted for the abolishing or altering of a Law Your Majesties Oath doth not binde You or Your Conscience to the observing of it otherwise no Lawes could be altered by the Legislative Power This I conceive hath been the ground of removing Episcopall Governement in Scotland and of removing the Bishops out of the Parliament of England And I assure my selfe that Your Majesty did not intend at the taking of Your Oath that although both Houses of Parliament should find an alteration necessary although which God Almighty avert You should loose Your Selfe your Posterity and Crown that You would never consent to the abolishing of such a Law If Your Majesty still object that the matter of the Oath is necessary and immutable that doth not belong to this but to the former Argument 8. I have but one word more concerning Your Piety to Your Royall Father and teacher of happy Memory with which Your Majesty does conclude Your Majesty knowes that King Iames never admitted Episcopacy upon Divine Right That His Majesty did sweare and subscribe to the Doctrine Worship and Discipline of the Church of Scotland that in the Preface of the latter Edition of Basilicon Doron His Majesty gives an honourable testimony to those that loved better the simplicity of the Gospel than the pomp and Ceremonies of the Church of England and that he conceived the Prelats to savour of the Popish Hierarchy and that could his Ghost now speake to your Majesty He would not advise your Majesty to run such hazards for those men who will chuse rather to pull downe your Throne with their own ruine than that they perish alone The Lord give your Majesty a wise and discerning Spirit to chuse that in time which is right Iuny 3. 1646. For Mr. Alex Henderson A Reply to his Answer to My first Paper Iune 6. 1646. His MAJESTIES second Paper Mr. Henderson IF it had been the Honour of the Cause which I looked after I would not have undertaken to put Pen to Paper or singly to have maintained this Argument against you whose Answer to my former Paper is sufficient without other proofs to justifie My opinion of your abilities but it being meerly as you know for my particular satisfaction I assure you that a Disputation of well chosen Divines would be most effectuall and I believe you cannot but grant that I must best know how My selfe may be best satisfied for certainly My Taste cannot be guided by anothers Mans Palate and indeed I will say that when it comes as it must to Probations I must have either Persons or Bookes to cleare the Allegations or it will be impossible to give Me satisfaction The fore-seeing of which made Me at first for the saving of Time