Hierom and Evag. tells us of viz. that the Presbyters of Alexandria till the daies of Heroclas and Dionysius took one from among themselves and made him a Bishop therefore they may make Presbyters which is less were not the Bishops wont to have Presbyters to joyn with them in this work Hath not a sheet of this Reverend Bishops written for accommodation at the Isle of Wight hinted this to be his judgement Aske the more moderate Presbyterians if they could not close with it Hath not the Rubrick told us that Bishops ordain'd as Presbyters Doctor Prid. in his Fasciculus therefore subscribes himself in the Epistle Dedicatory Episcopus vester sympresbyter Doth not the Vindication of the Ministry by the London Ministers bring abundant testimony of this Lastly aske the most rigid Episcopal man in England and try if he will not say that Ministers ordain'd by Presbyters are more lawfully Ministers than those that have a pretended Ordination from Churches Query 19. Again if you say All or any the fore-mentioned Ordinations be lawful then how vaine a thing was it for the Presbyterians to throw downe the Government of Episcopacy Why did they not rather reforme it than cashiere it seeing it was a power by which Ministers might have been authorized to preach according to Gods Ordinance Counter-Query Doe you go on still to your unchristian charges whereby you would not only lay injustice but bloud upon the heads of Presbyterians Dare you assert speake out that the Presbyterians did throw downe the Government of Episcopacy meerly for this errour in Ordination Was this the only reason of such sad miseries May wee not more safely say the Anabaptistical spirits which usually are bloudy witness those in Germany egg'd on to ruine whilst only Reformation was intended Did not they make the civil wounds turn to fatal deaths Did not they blow up that unbrotherly fire which might have been timely quencht into a destroying flame and then with joy warm'd their hands at it Query 20. If the Bishops as Bishops had this lawful Power when did any Power from Christ devest them Counter-Query If Bishops not as Bishops but as Ministers had this lawful power may we not be confident that Christ hath not devested those that are lawfully Ministers of this Power we will never so farre distrust his promise as to doubt but he will bee with them to the end of the world Matth. 28.20 Query 21. If Episcopal Authority were of God as the Bishops pretend why may not a man lawfully goe still to them for Ordination in case this Authority was never taken from them in an Ecclesiastical way Counter-Query 1 Can that Authority which is founded upon the Word of God bee taken from any in an Ecclesiastical way What doe you mean 2 Is not this Episcopal authority of Ordaining as Ministers founded on the Word 3 Can the contrary opinion either of the Ordainer or the Ordained null this lawful authority 4 May not a man lawfully goe to them if they will Ordaine as Ministers 5 If not ought he not in conscience since no necessity bindes now to the contrary take it where 't is more purely administred Query 22. If you say That both Presbyterian and Episcopal Ordination is lawful then I query whether that Christ ever erected two wayes of Ordination of Ministers one contrary to the other and yet both lawful for such is the state of Episcopacy and Presbytery in England one saith that the Presbytery hath no power to ordain the other saith they have Counter-Query Is not both Episcopal and Presbyterian Ordination the same as to the substance as is already hinted and as esteemed lawful the same as to purity only differing in Circumstances How irrational then and me thinks if Logick be rational illogical is it to say there is contrariety where there is but one thing viz. Ordination by Ministers Surely only two distinct things can bee called contraries Must you not bring better Arguments the next time to prove this then to say because some Circumstances differ therefore there is a contrariety c. because Episcopal and Presbyterian Ministers contradict one another therefore Ordination by each is contrary each to other If there bee such an essential agreement and only a circumstantial difference what reason then for such a Query whether did Christ erect two wayes of Ordination Query 23. If it is that Ordination that is among the Independents then we have that we run for then if one have their suffrage and Ordination and this be lawful which I think you will not say then wherein is Master Brooks in this to bee condemned Counter-Query Have you urged any thing yet that should force us to owne any Ordination among Independents but what is according to the Gospel-rule viz. by Ministers Would you make the world beleeve you run for Independancy Are you not past it and got to Anabaptisme Would you not faine have this as a cloake that your designe may be the more plausible Or is it that you tun for the defence of Mr. Brookes only Must we not necessarily hence suspect either that Mr. Brookes or his Church were staggered and that they got you to be their Patron or that you were guilty of presumption by intruding into their Cause uncall'd Query 24. Again If you say That Ordination by the Presbytery is the only Ordination then where was an Ordination to be had in England thirty years agoe Counter-Query Since Ordination as I have said is by Ministers were there not true and lawful Ministers in England thirty years agoe Doe you think so easily by your Sophistry to perswade us there cannot be a true Ministry under the name of Episcopacy and Presbytery As if Bishops thirty years agoe could not be true Ministers and Ordaine true Ministers or as if Presbyters now cannot be true Ministers nor ordaine true Ministers prove this by the next Query 25. Is it not very strange that you should tell the people they sin in hearing those that are not Ordained when you never tell them whether you mean any Ordination may serve nor what Ordination of those divers kindes it is that God approves of Counter-Query How Mr. Ives dare you thus charge Mr. Willes either you heard him all his Sermons there or not if not how durst you say that hee never told the people what Ordination he meant If you did hear him then how dare you falsly charge him with that that hundreds of people can witness against Did he not publickly declare that they ought to hear none but Ministers ordain'd by Ministers and that he was rigidly neither for the aforesaid Independancy Presbytery or Episcopacy but for a moderation seeing they differ in this but circumstantially and that he held Ordination performed by Ministers of any of these three wayes to bee valid and good Be not a Tale-bearer and take not up a false report against thy Neighbour Query 26. Since you say That none ought to preach but they must bee Ordained
the corruption of the corrupt Popish receivers of Ordination and the corruption of the corrupt Popish dispensers of it ever since could not break off the line of succession because it hath not its foundation in men but in the Word of God then our first Reformers must needs be true Ministers by succession and the present Ministry of England true as having received it from them Are not the Ordinances and Ministry of Rome the Ministry and Ordinances of Christ so far as they are according to the Word Object But may you say this is it I wish for then my sixteenth Query is not answered may wee not go lawfully then to Rome to bee ordained A. View my sixteenth Counter-Query 1 Dare you say it is lawful to submit to such corruptions that lead to Popery 2 Since wee know it 3 And that there is no necessity for it but it may bee had purer here was not this an unpardonable sin in the Israelites to offer Sacrifice under every green tree when there was a Temple to Sacrifice in Remember therefore these things 1 That Ordination is an Ordinance founded upon the Word 2 That the corruption of Receivers or Dispensers cannot null it 3 That our first Reformers were lawfully ordained by the corrupt Popish Bishops because it was a case of ignorance or necessity 4 That it is exceeding sinful and unlawful to receive Ordination NOW from Popish Bishops because no such excuse A second Argument to prove the line of succession not to bee broke Since Christianity was profest can you say there were not a company of true Beleevers a Church for so many years that England was under Popery If there was a Church then shee had Ministers or not if no Ministers what became of that promise Ephes 4.11 12 13. that the Saints shall have a Ministry till they come to a perfect man c. If there was a true Ministry then they were ordained ones or unordained ones If ordained ones we have that wee run for viz. that the line of succession was not broke off if unordained ones shew us it where they preached in what Church who they were give us an instance in one during all that time Query 28. Whether the Church of Rome was not as good a Church when your Predecessors left her as shee was when they received Ordination from her which was but a little before Counter-Query Probably shee was as good what then wee left her not as shee was the Spouse of Christ but as shee was an Harlot wee left not her Ordinances as they were Christs but her corruptions and Idolatries Query 29. If you shall say Here was a succession of Brittish Ministers in England before the Papal Power had to do here or before Gregory the Pope sent Austine the Monk to convert the Saxons then I query whether all those Ministers were not brought into subjection to the Papal Power and so were swallowed up in the See of Rome If not then Counter-Query Doth not Gildas report of a Ministry in England before Austin the Monk was sent over Might there not then bee thousands that had not bowed the knee to Baal 1 King 19.14 and wee not know of it Query 30. Whether there was any Succession of a true Church in England who were separated from the Church of Rome if there was shew us where that Church was all the time the Papal Power was exercised here and who were they that governed it and also how your Ordination proceeded from this reformed rather than from the Papal Line Counter-Query If as before might not there bee a Succession from such and we not know of it Is not God wont to make his own waies to flourish most though many times secretly ought you not to beleeve that God hath ordered all for the best it is more becomming us to wonder at then search admire then sound the secret works of God Query 31. If you say It came from Rome and not from that presupposed Succession then I query if Rome was a little before Henry the Eights time intrusted with the Administration of Christs Ordinances as a Church of Christ whether it was not your sin to leave her as a cage of every unclean thing Counter-Query But if it came from Rome and the sacred Ordinances of God were there may not Rome notwithstanding bee accounted a cage of every unclean thing what if a theef hath a Bible in his pocket is hee not therefore a theef can the possession of Ordinances make holy Then never a Minister can bee an unholy man If Rome was unclean notwithstanding those Ordinances as indeed shee was ought wee not then to depart from her corruptions Numb 16.37 the Censers of Korah and his company wherein they burned incense to the Lord were holy yet the Israelites were to separate from them that they might bee destroyed Query 32. If you say truly of her as indeed you do that shee was the cage of every unclean thing how then could shee dispence at that time so sacred an Ordinance as Ordination of Gospel-Ministers is by you judged to bee Counter-Query Is it not strange that you aske such a Query and not shew any reason why Why could she not dispence such a sacred Ordinance as Ordination notwithstanding her uncleanenesse Must those accounts in your Book which you know to be just and right be nulled and may others disowne their debts there because through the fault of your Boy they are naughtily written or blotted and blurred would you serve God as you would not bee served Query 33. If you say Shee had power as a Church and you did separate because of her corruptions that you might serve the Lord with more purity then I query whether you are not guilty of that evil your self if yet it bee an evil which you charge upon Mr. Brooks in separating from the halt and maimed Counter-Query If wee say shee had power as a Church why did you not disprove it For if shee was a Church then her Ministers were true Ministers though corrupt and the Succession was not broken off To what end then have all your former Queries been Reader thou mayest bee the more convinc'd that the Line of Succession was not broke because the adversary yeelds up his own weapons thus thou mayest see hee hath more of subtlety to puzzle than of strength to convince But Sir do you think by your yeelding to draw us into ambush that Mr. Brooks may separate as well from the halt and maimed as wee from Papists consider either hee acknowledged his Parishioners of Margarets-New-Fish-street to be a Church or not if not 1 Must hee not condemn then Mr. Froysell and other godly Ministers that have acknowledged them a Church and upon that account were their Ministers and gave them the Sacrament 2 Must hee not prove that such a company of beleevers that have been baptized thereby admitted Members of a Visible Church that will still publickly own this Baptisme that were never
notice of what Answers have been given unto this as well as other Queries is it not vain-glory to make the world beleeve that the London Ministers in their jus Divinum Min. ch 6. from p. 95. to 103. that Mr. Collins in his vindication Min. from p. 49. to 56. that Mr. Thomas Hall p. 56 to 59. and many others who writ concerning this Text have done nothing worthy Mr. Ives his regard of it 1 Is not an extraordinary Call by extraordinary gifts such an authority from God that no ordinary gifted brother as such may presume to have 2 Were not these in 1 Cor. 14 thus extraordinarily called 3 Were they not expresly called Prophets which is an Office improperly so called pro tempore 4 You may all prophesie can this be meant of any but Prophets is it an argument then for gifted brethren but you say then were all the Church exhorted to covet after extraordinary Offices Answ The word Office here is somewhat improper again it was but temporary and well may it be said that they all ought to seek after these extraordinary gifts which thus qualified them when a Judges place falls all the Serjeants in Town may lawfully seek for it though all cannot obtain it God had promised such gifts and ought they not to seek for them Query 14 If it shall bee said that prophesying here was an ordinary Office then it follows That the whole Church are exhorted to covet to bee ordinary Officers which would bee to make the whole Body of Christ monstrous If it shall bee said That they were not exhorted to prophesie as extraordinary or as ordinary Offices Then I query whether they were not to do it as gifted Brethren since wee never heard of any other way Counter-Query This Query is worth nothing only I query why may not your whole Church covet to bee all ordinary Officers as well as to bee preaching gifted brethren if because it is monstrous to have so many ruling heads is it not as monstrous to have as many speaking tongues in the body of Christ Query 15. Whereas you say That none ought to preach but those that are ordained except as before excepted I query Among those several Ordinations that are in Christendome which of those whether some one of them or all of them bee that which Christ approves of If you say All of them and that the errours of the Administrators in some Circumstances doth not make the Ordination a Nullity Counter-Query 1 Is not this the essential of Ordination viz. a setting apart Men to the Ministry by Ministers 2 Is not this the purity of it viz. when fit persons are duely set apart by Gospel Ministers in that Gospel way and for those Gospel ends a Ministry is appointed there being no superstitious corruption accompanying this Ordinance 3 May there not bee some circumstantial differences even among those that practice this purity in this Ordinance 4 May wee not say then that all the Ordinations in Christendome are approved by Christ that differ but thus circumstantially as well as men of opinions different in many things are accepted by him Query 16. Whether one may not by this Opinion bee lawfully ordained at Rome Counter-Query 1 Dare you say that Rome observes that Gospel purity in this Ordinance 2 Though the substance may be there yet is it not exceeding sinful NOW for US to submit to their impurities Considering that these three things only excuse in errours circumstantial 1 When the errour is so slight that it is no prejudice to the substance nor doth engage to other pernicious errours doth not Ordination among the Papists do this doth it not oblige to obedience to and Mission by that Autichristian See Note that the cases following excuse when this cannot bee pleaded 2 When a sincere aime at the substance is accompanied with ignorance of the errours in circumstance can wee plead ignorance of the errours of Rome or shall wee say that man hath a sincere aime that shall go thither to submit to it NOW 3 When a case of necessity is viz. 1 When we are bound to have the Ordinance its self 2 And when it cannot bee elsewhere had but with these errours and impurities 3 Or when greater evils than those errours would follow Is this our case NOW with Rome though Preachers are bound to submit to that Ordinance of Ordination yet can they not have it else where than at Rome in more purity Answer Sir Is it not in more purity done by the Ministers in England than by those at Rome Query 17. If you shall say The Protestant-Ordination is lawful and that only then I query which of those whether the Episcopal Presbyterian or Independent Ordination bee that which is approved by Christ to impower the Ministers to preach since all these are Protestants and greatly differ in this thing Counter-Query Do you not easily see by what hath been said that the Protestant Ordination only is acknowledged to bee lawful to us NOW Do you not as easily see the Episcopal Presbyterian and the most sober independent Ministers own the essence of this Ordinance viz. that it is a setting apart men to the Ministry by Ministers 2 That they practice the purity by setting apart fit men in a Gospel way for those Gospel ends a Ministry is appointed without superstitious intermixtures 3. Ought wee not then to say that ordination by all or any of them is approved by Christ and true Christians to impower Ministers to preach notwithstanding they may differ in some circumstantials Query 18. If you say All of these are lawful then were not the Ministers of the Episcopal way greatly out in crying up the Ordination by Bishops to bee the onely Authoritative Ordination in opposition to that of the Presbytery And that they did so will appear if you consult Dr. Jer. Taylor Chaplain to the late King in his Book called Episcopacy asserted page 120 121 122. It is cleer saith hee that Bishops were to do some Acts which the Presbyters COULD NOT do one of which hee calls Ordination by imposition of hands which hee saith was not to bee done by Presbyters Again the said Doctor saith That the Apostles did impose Hands for confirmation which saith hee was to continue in the Church and could not bee done by the seventy or any MEER Presbyter And for this hee cites the constant practice of the Fathers and the Opinions of divers Churches Therefore pray tell mee if this be that Ordination which a man must have without which his Preaching is sinful Counter-Query Is it not unchristian to charge the errour of one man though a worthy man upon the rest of the Episcopal way is it not evident that the most of them judged themselves to ordain as Ministers and not as meer Bishops Doth not Mr. Baxter say in his second sheet that Bishop Vsher did acknowledge Ordination by Presbyters without a Bishop to be vallid and that hee answered King Charles by an instance that
example to a Beleever in charity 1 Tim. 4.12 I query then whether back-biting tale-bearing and taking up a reproach against your Neighbour be not contrary to the Law of Charity and whether you were not guilty of this when you told a Gentleman that lives at High-gate who is ready to witnesse the truth hereof That you were enformed I was a Jesuite and therefore told him he would doe well to apprehend me Truly Sir if you doe not tell me who informed you I shall say it was a slander of your owne devising either thereby to take away my life for that is the punishment the Law hath provided for Jesuites by the Stat. of Eliz. 27.2 or else if that Gentlemn would have been ruled by you that I might have been laid in Goal right or wrong to the undoing of my self and Family till I could have cleared my self of the supposed Crime in open Sessions This must needs bee your design otherwise why did you encourage him to apprehend me as a Jesuite but more of this in a more convenient place where I doubt not of reparation only let me tell you That if you could as easily prove the Affirmative viz. That you are sent of God to preach and that all you preach is true as I can prove the Negative that I am no Jesuite the controversie between us would soon be ended Counter-Query Do you not see by Mr. Willes his Letter how much you are to blame thus in Print to take up a reproach against him and that upon the bare information of such a single person did hee ever assert you to be a Jesuite At the most hee only said you were suspected and this hee spake in private And indeed who would not suspect that man to be Jesuitical who was cryed out on to be such to his face in a great Congregation at Clements beyond Temple-Bar that hath the vox populi to accuse him of it That is reported to have converse with Jesuites that liv'd a conceal'd I had almost said a suspected life for some years together in and about London that hath Jesuitical opinions and designs especially to pluck down the Ministry of England or to make it odious That these grounds of suspition may be had concerning you I shall not assert but only wish that we had no more ground to suspect you to be Jesuitical then Mr. Willes to be uncharitable in accusing you or erroneous in what is here controverted and I make no question but you would in your next subscribe your self a friend to Mr. Willes and this Truth in some measure vindicated Confess the Truth and glorifie God Amen Reader there are faults in the printing which are not much material only correct p. 31. l. 4. read with for as POST-SCRIPT REader I thought it necessary to advertise thee of a few things 1 That to mee it is a great sign that that is a Truth and a Truth of great concernment which when it is asserted or taught men of corrupt minds are enraged at and oppose They would have the Servants sleep that being their time of sowing Tares therefore it is very observeable that when ever godliness was most likely to encrease when the Ministry have been most famous and active then the Devil hath stirred up deadly enemies and opposers this hath been in all ages this wee sadly experience in our daies Was there ever a more learned pious famous Ministry in England than now there is I challenge even its enemies and amongst them Mr. Ives to contradict it if they can And shall wee not sigh at it had ever the Ministry of England so great and so many Designers to undermine it But the Father of Truth usually so blesseth his own cause that it gets by opposition thus wee can say of this truth of Ordination of Ministers which in my knowledge hath gotten ground by these late Broyles Gather your selves together and you shall bee broken in peeces for the Lord is with us Isa 8.9 10. Mat. 28.20 2 That those that have Designs against the Truth have usually some plausible pretence to carry them on the Devil hath got the Art now adaies to wrap himself in a Prophets Mantle to appear as an Angel of light in his choycest Instruments who usually with a seeming religious garb footh up with soft words till they may opportunely change their Court-ships into calumnies Hath not Mr. Ives worthily shown himself for Ordination of Ministers as hee pretends that would make the world beleeve that the present godly Ministry is Antichristian if hee could and that hath thus thrust himself into a quarrel against it 3 That those that design the propagating of their errours will for the most part oppose their hands will bee against every man but seldome assert their own opinion and prove it is it not because it is easier to quarrel with truth than to prove an errour and because that is a time to break in when the ranks are first shattered to broach errours when men are staggered in the truth or is not this the end viz. to bee alway accusing of others that they themselves may never bee questioned or called to justifie their own practices Hath not Mr. Ives plaid his part in this by opposing every man not of his own way that wee might beleeve what hee asserts to bee truth Hath hee not done so in these Queries where doth hee bring the least positive truth or one Argument to justifie his own practice or to state what is right Hath hee brought one probable Argument to prove that gifted brethren may preach or that people may hear them that the Church ought to ordain and not Ministers hath hee unfolded any of those independent Riddles viz. that a company of those that are baptized and owne their Baptisme are not Members of a Visible Church Or that a Minister being such in relation to his Church acts no longer as in Office than to his Church and that at one and the same time and place hee preacheth as a meer gifted Brother to those that are not of his Church and as a Minister to those of his Church thus thou mayest see his spirit of Opposition and his design to cry out on others that none may suspect his cause as cut-purses that they may may not bee accused Ought hee not to do otherwise the next time 4 That this task I have here undertaken is the first and therefore may bee guilty of mistakes of which I begge thy pardon and do promise thee that nothing but what is more than ordinarily material shall provoke mee to spend my own time in writing or thine in reading Bee zealous for the truth pray for its progress and bee thankful to God for any satisfaction thou shalt receive by him who is thy concealed Friend N. E. FINIS