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england_n	bishop_n	church_n	ordination_n	3,829	5	10.8464	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78958	The papers which passed at Nevv-Castle betwixt His sacred Majestie and Mr Alex: Henderson concerning the change of church-government. Anno Dom. 1646.	Charles I, King of England, 1600-1649.; Henderson, Alexander, 1583?-1646. aut; Marshall, William, fl. 1617-1650, engraver.	1649 (1649)	Wing C2535A; ESTC R213547	25,945	67

infallible for Bilson I remember well what opinion the King my Father had of him for those Opinions and how He shewed him some favour in hope of his recantation as His good nature made Him do many things of that kind but whether he did or not I cannot say To conclude this point untill you shall prove this position by the word of God as I will Regall Authority I shall think all popular Reformation little better than Rebellions for I hold that no Authority is lawfull but that which is either directly given or at least approved by God 2ly Concerning the English Reformation the first reason you bring why Q. Elizabeth did not finish it is because she tooke not away Episcopacy the hits of reason against which Government you say I take no notice of now I thought it was sufficient notice yea and answer too when I told you a negative as I conceived could not be proved and that it was for Me to prove the affirmative which I shall either doe or yeild the Argument as soone as I shall be assisted with Bookes or such Men of My opinion who like you have a Library in their braine And so I must leave this particular untill I be furnished with means to put it to an issue which had been sooner done if I could have had My will indeed your second well proved is most sufficient which is That the English Church Government is not builded upon the foundation of Christ and the Apostles but I conceive your probation of this doubly defective for first albeit our Archbishops and Bishops should have professed Church-Government to be mutable ambulatory I conceive it not sufficient to prove your Assertion and secondly I am confident you cannot prove that most of them maintained this walking position for some particulars must not conclude the generall for which you must find much better Arguments than their being content with the Constitution of the Church and the Authority and munificence of Princes or you will fall extreamly short As for the retaining of the Roman leven you must prove it as well as say it else you say little But that the conforming of the Church discipline to the civill policy should be a depraving of it I absolutely deny for I averre that without it the Church can neither flourish nor be happy And for your last instance you shall doe well to shew the prohibition of our Saviour against addition of more Officers in the Church than he named and yet in one sense I doe not conceive that the Church of England hath added any for an Archbishop is onely a distinction for order of Government not a new Officer and so of the rest and of this kind I believe there are diverse now in Scotland which you will not condemne as the Moderators of Assemblies and others 4. Where you find a Bishop and Presbyter in Scripture to be one and the same which I deny to be alwaies so it is in the Apostles time now I think to prove the Order of Bishops succeeded that of the Apostles and that the name was chiefly altered in reverence to those who were immediately chosen by our Saviour albeit in their time they caused diverse to be called so as Barnabas and others so that I believe this Argument makes little for you As for your proofe of the antiquity of Presbyterian Government it is well that the Assembly of Divines at Westminster can doe more then Eusebius could and I shal believe when I see it for your former Paper affirmes that those times were very dark for matter of fact and will be so still for me if there be no clearer Arguments to prove it than those you mention for because there were diverse Congregations in Jerusalem ergo what are there not divers Parishes in one Diocesse your two first I answer but as one Argument and because the Apostles met with those of the inferiour Orders for Acts of Government what then even so in these times doe the Deanes and Chapters and many times those of the inferiour Clergy assist the Bishops but I hope you will not pretend to say that there was an equality between the Apostles and other Presbyters which not being doth in my judgment quite invalidate these Arguments And if you can say no more for the Churches of Corinth Ephesus Thessalonica c. than you have for Jerusalem it will gaine no ground on me As for Saint Jerome it is well knowne that he was no great Friend to Bishops as being none himselfe yet take him altogether and you will find that he makes a clear distinction between a Bishop and a Presbyter as your self confesses but the truth is he was angry with those who maintained Deacons to be equall to Presbyters 5. I am well satisfied with the explanation of your meaning concerning the word Fallacy though I think to have had reason for saying what I did but by your favour I doe not conceive that you have answered the strength of my Argument for when you and I differ upon the interpretation of Scripture and I appeale to the practise of the Primitive Church and the universall consent of the Fathers to be judge between us methinks you should either find a fitter or submit to what I offer neither of which to My understanding you have yet done nor have you shewne how waving those Judges I appeale unto the mischief of the interpretation by private Spirits can be prevented Indeed if I cannot prove by antiquity that Ordination and Jurisdiction belongs to Bishops thereby cleerly distinguishing them from other Presbyters I shall then begin to misdoubt many of my former foundations as for Bishop Davenant he is none of those to whom I have appealed or will submit unto but for the exception you take to Fathers I take it to be a begging of the Question as likewise those great discoveries of secrets not knowne to former Ages I shall call new-invented fancies untill particularly you shall prove the contrary and for your Roman Authours it is no great wonder for them to seek shifts whereby to maintaine Novelties as well as the Puritans As for Church-ambition it doth not at all terminate in seeking to be Pope for I take it to be no point of humility to endeavour to be independent of Kings it being possible that Papacy in a multitude may be as dangerous as in one 6. As I am no Judge over the Reformed Churches so neither doe I censure them for many things may be avowable upon necessity which otherwaies are unlawfull but know once for all that I esteeme nothing the better because it is done by such a particular Church though it were by the Church of England which I avow most to reverence but I esteem that Church most which comes nearest to the purity of the primitive Doctrine and Discipline as I believe this doth Now concerning Ordination I bad you prove that Presbyters without a Bishop might lawfully ordaine which yet I conceive you have

FIDEI DEFENSOR Non enim to spreverunt Solum ●ed me spreverunt ne Regnem super ips●● Per Ecclesiam p●tor Giul Marshall sculp THE PAPERS Which passed at NEVV-CASTLE BETWIXT His Sacred MAJESTIE AND Mr ALEX HENDERSON Concerning the Change of CHURCH-GOVERNMENT Anno Dom. 1646. LONDON Printed for R. Royston at the Angel in Ivie-lane M. DC.XL.IX For Mr. Alex Henderson His MAJESTIES first Paper Mr. Henderson I Know very well what a great disadvantage it is for Me to maintaine an Argument of Divinity with so able and learned a Man as your self it being your not My profession which really was the cause that made Me desire to heare some learned man argue My Opinion with you of whose abilities I might be confident that I should not be led into an Errour for want of having all which could be said layed open unto Me For indeed My humour is such that I am still partiall for that side which I imagine suffers for the weaknesse of those that maintaine it alwaies thinking that equall Champions would cast the ballance on the other part Yet since that you thinking that it will save time desire to goe another way I shall not contest with you in it but treating you as My Physitian give you leave to take your owne way of cure onely I thought fit to warne you lest if you not I should be mistaken in this you would be faine in a manner to begin anew Then know that from my Infancy I was blest with the King my Fathers love which I thanke God was an unvaluable happinesse to me all his daies and among all his cares for my education his chief was to settle me right in Religion in the true Knowledge of which he made himself so eminent to all the World that I am sure none can call in question the brightnesse of his Fame in that particular without shewing their own ignorant base malice He it was who laid in Me the Grounds of Christianity which to this day I have been constant in so that whether the worthinesse of My Instructor be considered or the not few yeares that I have been setled in My Principles it ought to be no strange thing if it be found no easie worke to make me alter them and the rather that hitherto I have according to Saint Paul's rule Rom. 14. 22. been happy in Not condemning my selfe in that thing which I allow Thus having shewed you how it remaines to tell you what I believe in relation to these present miserable distractions No one thing made Me more reverence the Reformation of My Mother the Church of England than that it was done according to the Apostles defence Act. 24. 18. neither with multitude nor with tumult but legally and orderly and by those whom I conceive to have onely the reforming power which with many other inducements made Me alwayes confident that the worke was very perfect as to Essentials of which number Church-Government being undoubtedly one I put no question but that would have been likewise altered if there had been cause which opinion of mine was soone turned into more than a confidence when I perceived that in this particular as I must say of all the rest we retained nothing but according as it was deduced from the Apostles to be the constant universall custome of the Primitive Church and that it was of such consequence as by the alteration of it we should deprive our selves of a lawfull Priesthood and then how the Sacraments can be duly Administred is easie to judge These are the principall Reasons which make me believe that Bishops are necessary for a Church and I think sufficient for Me if I had no more not to give My consent for their expulsion out of England but I have another obligation that to my particular is a no lesse tie of Conscience which is My Coronation Oath Now if as S. Paul saith Rom. 14. 23. He that doubteth is damned if he eat what can I expect if I should not onely give way knowingly to My Peoples sinning but likewise be perjured My selfe Now consider ought I not to keep my selfe from presumptuous sinnes and you know who sayes What doth it profit a man though he should gaine the whole World and lose his owne Soule Wherefore my constant maintenance of Episcopacy in England where there was never any other Government since Christianity was in this Kingdome Methinks should be rather commended than wondered at My Conscience directing Me to maintaine the Lawes of the Land which being onely my endeavours at this time I desire to know of you what warrant there is in the Word of God for Subjects to endeavour to force their Kings Conscience or to make him alter Lawes against his will If this be not my present case I shall be glad to be mistaken or if my Judgment in Religion hath been misled all this time I shall be willing to be better directed till when you must excuse Me to be constant to the Grounds which the King my Father taught me Newcastle May 29. 1646. C. R. For His Majestie Mr. Alexander Henderson's first Paper SIR 1. IT is Your Majesties royall goodness and not my merit that hath made your Majesty to conceive any opinion of my abilities which were they worthy of the smallest testimony from your Majesty ought in all duty to be improved for your Majesties satisfaction And this I intended in my coming here at this time by a free yet modest expression of the true motives and inducements which drew my mind to the dislike of Episcopall Government wherein I was bred in my younger years at the University Like as I did apprehend that it was not your Majesties purpose to have the Question disputed by Divines on both sides which I would never to the wronging of the cause have undertaken alone and which seldome or never hath proved an effectuall way for finding of truth or moving the minds of Men to relinquish their former Tenents Dum res transit à judicio in affectum witness the Polemicks between the Papists and us and among our selves about the matter now in hand these many yeares past 2. Sir when I consider your Majesties education under the hands of such a Father the length of time wherein Your Majesty hath been setled in your principles of Church-Government the Arguments which have continually in private and publique especially of late at Oxford filled your Majesties eares for the Divine Right thereof your Coronation Oath and divers State-reasons which your Majesty doth not mention I doe not wonder nor think it any strange thing that your Majesty hath not at first given place to a contrary impression I remember that the famous Joannes Picus Mirandula proveth by irrefragable Reasons which no rationall man will contradict That no man hath so much power over his own understanding as to make himself believe what he will or to think that to be true which his reason telleth him is false much lesse is it

adverse Party than to be overcome of Truth although this be the most glorious Victory 3. When I was commanded to come hither no such thing was proposed to me nor expected by me I never judged so meanly of the Cause nor so highly of my selfe as to venture it upon such weaknesse Much more might be spoken to this purpose but I forbeare 2. I will not further trouble your Majesty with that which is contained in the second Section hoping that your Majesty will no more insist upon Education prescription of time c. which are sufficient to prevent Admiration but which your Majesty acknowledges must give place to Reason and are no sure ground of resolution of our Faith in any point to be believed although it be true that the most part of men make these and the like to be the ground and rule of their Faith an Evidence that their Faith is not a Divine faith but an humane Credulity 3. Concerning Reformation of Religion in the third Section I had need of a Preface to so thorny a Theame as your Majesty hath brought me upon 1. For the Reforming power it is conceived when a Generall Defection like a deluge hath covered the whole face of the Church so that scarcely the tops of the Mountains doe appeare a Generall Councell is necessary but because that can hardly be obtained severall Kingdomes which we see was done at the time of the Reformation are to reforme themselves and that by the Authority of their Prince and Magistrates if the Prince or supreme Magistrate be unwilling then may the inferior Magistrate and the People being before rightly informed in the grounds of Religion lawfully Reforme within their owne sphere and if the light shine upon all or the major part they may after all other meanes assayed make a Publique Reformation This before this time I never wrote or spoke yet the Maintainers of this Doctrine conceive that they are able to make it good But Sir were I worthy to give advice to your Majesty or to the Kings and supreme Powers on Earth my humble Opinion would be that they should draw the minds tongues and pens of the learned to dispute about other matter then the power or Prerogative of Kings and Princes and in this kind your Majesty hath suffered and lost more then will easily be restored to your selfe or your Posterity for a long time It is not denied but the prime Reforming power is in Kings and Princes Quibus deficientibus it comes to the inferior Magistrate Quibus Deficientibus it descendeth to the Body of the People supposing that there is a necessity of Reformation and that by no meanes it can be obtained of their Superiors It is true that such a Reformation is more imperfect in respect of the Instruments and manner of Procedure yet for the most part more pure and perfect in relation to the effect and product And for this end did I cite the Examples of old of Reformation by Regall Authority of which none was perfect in the second way of perfection except that of Josiah Concerning the saying of Grostead whom the Cardinals at Rome confest to be a more Godly man than any of themselves it was his Complaint and Prediction of what was likely to ensue not his desire or Election if Reformation could have been obtained in the ordinary way I might bring two unpartiall Witnesses Jewel and Bilson both famous English Bishops to prove that the tumults and troubles raised in Scotland at the time of Reformation were to be imputed to the Papists opposing of the Reformation both of Doctrine and Discipline as an Hereticall Innovation and not to be ascribed to the Nobility or People who under God were the Instruments of it intending and seeking nothing but the purging out of Errour and setling of the Truth 2. Concerning the Reformation of the Church of England I conceive whether it was begun or not in K. Henry the 8. time it was not finished by Q. Elizabeth the Father stirred the humors of the diseased Church but neither the Sonne nor the Daughter although we have great reason to blesse God for both did purge them out perfectly This Perfection is yet reserved for your Majesty Where it is said that all this time I bring no Reasons for a further Change the fourth Section of my last Paper hath many hints of Reasons against Episcopall Government with an offer of more or clearing of those which your Majesty hath not thought fit to take notice of And learned men have observed many Defects in that Reformation As that the Government of the Church of England for about this is the Question now is not builded upon the foundation of Christ and the Apostles which they at least cannot deny who professe Church-Government to be mutable and ambulatory and such were the greater part of Arch-bishops and Bishops in England contenting themselves with the constitutions of the Church and the authority and munificence of Princes till of late that some few have pleaded it to be Jure Divino That the English Reformation hath not perfectly purged out the Roman Leven which is one of the reasons that have given ground to the comparing of this Church to the Church of Laodicaea as being neither hot nor cold neither Popish nor Reformed but of a lukewarme temper betwixt the two That it hath depraved the Discipline of the Church by conforming of it to the Civil policy That it hath added many Church Offices higher lower unto those instituted by the Son of God which is as unlawfull as to take away Offices warranted by the Divine Institution and other the like which have moved some to apply this saying to the Church of England Multi ad perfectionem pervenirent nisi jam se pervenisse crederent 4. In my Answer to the first of your Majesties many Arguments I brought a Breviate of some Reasons to prove that a Bishop and Presbyter are one and the same in Scripture from which by necessary consequence I did inferre the negative Therefore no difference in Scripture between a Bishop and a Presbyter the one name signifying Industriam Curiae Pastoralis the other Sapientiae Maturitatem saith Beda And whereas Your Majesty averres that Presbyterian Government was never practised before Calvin's time your Majesty knows the common objection of the Papists against the Reformed Churches Where was your Church your Reformation your Doctrine before Luther's time One part of the common Answer is that it was from the beginning and is to be found in Scripture The same I affirme of Presbyterian Government And for proving of this the Assembly of Divines at Westminster have made manifest that the Primitive Christian Church at Jerusalem was governed by a Presbytery while they shew 1. That that the Church of Jerusalem consisted of more Congregations than one from the multitude of Believers from the many Apostles and other Preachers in that Church and from the diversity of Languages among the Believers 2.

satisfie your Majesty may have more or the same further cleared 5. Secondly I doe humbly desire Your Majesty to take notice of the fallacy of that Argument from the practice of the Primitive Church and the universall Consent of the Fathers It is the Argument of the Papists for such traditions as no Orthodox Divine will admit The Law and Testimony must be the Rule We can have no certaine knowledge of the practice universall of the Church for many years Eusebius the prime Historian confesseth so much the learned Josephus Scaliger testifieth That from the end of the Acts of the Apostles untill a good time after no certainty can be had from Ecclesiasticall Authors about Church matters It is true Diotrephes sought the preheminence in the Apostles times and the mystery of iniquity did then begin to work and no doubt in after-times some puffed up with Ambition and others overtaken with weaknesse endevoured alteration of Church Government but that all the learned and godly of those times consented to such a change as is talked of afterwards will never be proved 6. Thirdly I will never think that Your Majesty will deny the lawfulnesse of a Ministery and the due administration of the Sacraments in the Reformed Churches which have no Diocesan Bishops sith it is not only manifest by Scripture but a great many of the strongest Champions for Episcopacy doe confesse that Presbyters may ordaine other Presbyters and that Baptisme administred by a private Person wanting a publick Calling or by a Midwife and by a Presbyter although not ordained by a Bishop are not one and the same thing 7. Concerning the other Argument taken from Your Majesties Coronation Oath I confesse that both in the taking and keeping of an Oath so sacred a thing is it and so high a point of Religion much tendernesse is required and farre be it from us who desire to observe our owne Solemne Oath to presse Your Majesty with the violation of Yours Yet Sir I will crave your leave in all humblenesse and sincerity to lay before Your Majesties eyes this one thing which perhaps might require a larger discourse that although no humane authority can dispense with an Oath Quia Religio juramenti pertinet ad forum Divinum yet in some cases it cannot be denied but the obligation of an Oath ceaseth As when we swear homage and obedience to our Lord and Superiour who afterwards ceaseth to be our Lord and Superiour for then the formall cause of the Oath is taken away and therefore the obligation Sublata causa tollitur effectus sublato relato tollitur Correlatum Or when any Oath hath a speciall reference to the benefit of those to whom I make the promise if we have their desire or consent the obligation ceaseth because all such Oaths from the nature of the thing doe include a condition When the Parliaments of both Kingdomes have covenanted for the abolishing or altering of a Law Your Majesties Oath doth not binde You or Your Conscience to the observing of it otherwise no Lawes could be altered by the Legislative Power This I conceive hath been the ground of removing Episcopall Government in Scotland and of removing the Bishops out of the Parliament of England And I assure my selfe that Your Majesty did not intend at the taking of Your Oath that although both Houses of Parliament should find an alteration necessary although which God Almighty avert you should lose your selfe and your Posterity and Crowne that you would never consent to the abolishing of such a Law If Your Majesty still object that the matter of the Oath is necessary immutable that doth not belong to this but to the former Argument 8. I have but one word more concerning Your Piety to Your Royall Father and teacher of happy Memory with which Your Majesty does conclude Your Majesty knows that King James never admitted Episcopacy upon Divine Right That His Majesty did sweare and subscribe to the Doctrine Worship and Discipline of the Church of Scotland that in the Preface of the latter Edition of Basilicon Doron His Majesty gives an honourable testimony to those that loved better the simplicity of the Gospel than the pomp and Ceremonies of the Church of England and that he conceived the Prelats to savour of the Popish Hierarchy and that could his Ghost now speake to your Majesty He would not advise your Majesty to run such hazards for those Men who will chuse rather to pull downe your Throne with their own ruine than that they perish alone The Lord give your Majesty a wise and discerning Spirit to chuse that in time which is right June 3. 1646. For Mr. Alex Henderson A Reply to his Answer to My first Paper June 6. 1646. His MAJESTIES second Paper Mr. Henderson IF it had been the Honour of the Cause which I looked after I would not have undertaken to put Pen to Paper or singly to have maintained this Argument against you whose Answer to my former Paper is sufficient without other proofs to justifie My opinion of your abilities but it being meerly as you know for my particular satisfaction I assure you that a Disputation of well chosen Divines would be most effectuall and I believe you cannot but grant that I must best know how my self may be best satisfied for certainly My Taste cannot be guided by another Mans Palate and indeed I will say that when it comes as it must to Probations I must have either Persons or Books to cleare the Allegations or it will be impossible to give Me satisfaction The fore-seeing of which made Me at first for the saving of Time desire that some of those Divines which I gave you in a List might be sent for 2. Concerning your second Section I were much too blame if I should not submit to that saying of S. Ambrose which you mention for I would be unwilling to be found lesse ingenuous than you shew your selfe to be in the former part of it wherefore my Reply is that as I shall not be ashamed to change for the better so I must see that it is better before I change otherwise inconstancy in this were both sin and shame and remember what your selfe hath learnedly enforced that no mans Reason can be commanded by another mans Will 3. Your third begins but I cannot say that it goes on with that Ingenuity which the other did for I doe not understand how those Examples cited out of the Old Testament do any way prove that the way of Reformation which I commend hath not been the most perfect or that any other is lawfull those having been all by the Regall Authority and because Henry the Eights Reformation was not perfect will it prove that of K. Edward and Q. Elizabeth to be unperfect I believe a new moode and figure must be found out to forme a Syllogisme whereby to prove that but however you are mistaken for no man who truely understands the English Reformation will derive it from