how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seeme as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5.1 compared with chap. 3.1 3. chap. 4.10 Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14.23 Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hold it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9. And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he bath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had the oversight of all the Churches in their Diocesses some peculiars excepted and put in and put out at their pleasures and this must be allowed for the people
ought as well as other Offerings be laid aside according to that Thou shalt not bring the hire of a Whore nor the price of a dog into the house of the Lord c. And what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols Deut. 23.18 Pr. But now I pray you according to your judgement what must become of all our Churches It seems by your argument if one may believe you they must all be plucked down as the Brownists teach what say you to that Ph. Touching the name CHURCH in your sense I do not greatly like it for it properly signifieth a Companie and is used for the companie of the faithful yet for the present I shall admit the word by a Metonymie to signifie the place of their meeting And I do not conceive there is any necessitie to pluck these Churches or meeting places down I contess I put no holiness in them and think the Congregation may as well meet in any other convenient place and that there is neither Legal nor Evangelical holiness in them And that plucking down all the Popish and superstitious pictures and Monuments of Idolatrie I do not mean the Arms of men of renown and placing a faithfull Ministerie there is a sufficient purging of these places to make them fit for the people of God to meet in for partaking of the holy Ordinances of God Pr. Why say you so These Churches were founded by Papists and have been used to Idolatrie And therefore you may as well allow of the things you speak against even now as these Churches I think both ought to be allowed indifferently Ph. I hold there is great difference First for those I spake of formerly we are sure they were the inventions of the Man of sin and its possible to shew when and how they were brought into the Church of Rome But these Churches at least manie of them are more ancient then Poperie or Antichrist for it s not possible that Antichrist could come untill the Roman Empire was broken and removed which was at least four hundred years after Christ Before which Christianitie was plentifully spread in England and many Churches and Congregations planted for the true worship of God 2 Thes 7 8. Reve. 13.2 Antiquitie with full consent agree that Christianitie was here planted in or neer the Apostles daies and that upon occasion of the Persecution that rose about Stephen Acts 11.19 divers of the Apostles and Disciples came into England amongst whom the Ancients reckon Peter Paul Joseph of Aramathea and Symon Zelotes And that some Brittaines both men and women were famous Christians and some suffered Martyrdom here in the first ten Persecutions Fox Act. Mon. vo p. 147. 148. Speeds Chron pa. Now then we cannot conceive but that the pietie and devotion of those times when they had a Christian King Lucius An. 180. pr. Christ and Christianitie countenanced and priviledged by divers of the Emperors especially Constantine and Theodosius would stir up the Christians to build them meeting places Besides about the year six hundred when Augustin the Monck falsly called the English Apostle came into England sent by Pope Gregorie the Great who had not taken upon him the Title of universal Bishop he found the reliques of manie Churches and Congregations of Christians planted in England and Wales Fox Act. Mon. vo pa. 150.151 And he disputed with the Monks of Bangor about Ceremonies by which it s conceived he brought not so much Religion with him as he did superstition and Introductions to Popery for the Brittains had learned Religion from better Tutors It s true afterwards these meeting places were generally all polluted with Popish Idolatry all which with the Reliques thereof being swept out they are clean as before Pr. But what say you to this many of our Churches were Idols Temples Goodw. Ant. Ro. ca. 20. de delubro Ph. The Parish Churches I conceive were built for the service of the true God the forms of them are unlike the Idol Temples But I confess some of the Cathedrall Churches were the Temples of Idols as of Jupiter Apollo Janus and Diana some of which are demolished and some were new built as Pauls at London by Ethelbert the King about 1060 years since At which time hee put out the Flammins and Arch-flammins and set up Arch-Bishops and Bishops These Churches were built and dedicated to Idols or rather Devils and false Gods and therefore ought to be demolished as I conceive according to that Law Ye shall destroy all the places where they served their Gods and break down their Altars c. Deut. 12.2 3 c. Pr. Well I hope shortly to see the Church-government setled with the Classes and Synods and that thereby all things will be well reformed for the Appeals will regulate every thing which is irregularly done and many will see more then a few Ph. I should be glad to see a through Reformation but I do much feare these Prudentiall things the Classes Synods and Appeals to them will prove but imprudentiall and Physicians of no value And I doubt not but those who put the Parliament upon them have their own ends and aims in them Pr. Why say you so the Church of Antioch did appeal to the Councell at Jerusalem in a case of Conscience Acts 15. and why may not we do the like Pr. I deny that there was any such Appeale as you mean its true the Church of Antioch in a case of conscience did voluntarily send Paul and Barnabas and other brethren to Jerusalem to advise with the Apostles Elders and Church there about that matter And accordingly they received the sentence and judgement of the whole Church as well Brethren as Apostles and Elders which Apostles had extraordinary gifts of knowledge and revelation and what they directed them was in stead of the written Word We have no persons so gifted in these daies but must have recourse to the Law and the Testimonies the written Word of God Pr. But do you not think that these Classes and Appeals will be of excellent use for cropping and curbing of Errors Heresies and Sectaries and keeping the Church free from pollution Ph. I am unwilling to tell you what I think of Presbyterial Gonernment I le say nothing of it but take thus much mark the end and observe it These things the Classes Synods and Appeals can never profit the Church of Christ The Appeals are in effect the same wee had before from the Arch-Deacon to the Consistory of the Bishop from thence to the Arches then to the Audience and then to the Delegates so from the Congregation Presbyterie to the Classes from the Classes to the Provinciall Synod then to the Nationall Here is work for the Civill Lawyers to wyer-draw a cause as a Proctor once said untill dooms day if he lived so long These are not so likely to do good as the superintendencie of Bishops which grew up within the first three hundred years after Christ and were ordained
the Law will give it them 9. They say the Church and Chancell regarding the materials have no holiness in them and they account it superstitious to hold otherwise But you shall neither lift up axe nor hamme to break the ground especially in the Chancel unless you pay to the Parson a large Fee besides what will repair the ground and then you may burie the dead as high as the Altar Place 10. Tenthly they are content that the Altar smelling of Idolatrie should be taken away But they expect the gift or offering called the Altarage used to be offered at the Altar 11. Eleventhly they scruple and some have refused to baptize the children of strangers by whom they have no profit but they will baptize all the children whose Parents live within their Parish being offered within the Church least they should seeme to be none of their flock and so they loose their fleece 12. Twelvethly they have laid aside their superstitious Procession But they must preserve their perambulation walk and limits of the Parish least they loose anie of their tithes 13. Thirteenthly they cryed down the High Commission as a Rack for mens consciences and yet they will needs be spirituall Judges and Commissioners of Appeal too so that they Pope like may have the sole Power and the Laietie may have nothing to do there 14. Fourteenthly they will Petition for an augmentation to be granted to them by the name of the Ministers c. And yet for advantage you may be permitted to call them Parsons Vicars Curates and Priests And in conclusion whatsoever is burdensome and tends neither to their honour or profit that they are willing to part with all But if any thing conduce to either of those ends that they retain I have now shewed you in some sort the Character of these Reformers to the end you and others may know your selves and your fraternitie better then before Pr. Do you believe that all these men sin against their own consciences in what they do in their Ministerie Ph. I do not say so nor do I believe so but rather think that manie amongst them are godly men who through inconsiderateness taking things of trust from the chief actors and forward men and some meerly through simplicitie being willing as everie man is to be perswaded of the lawfulness of such things as serve for their temporal good especially being controverted and so manie subtil heads some reputed for godly men imployed to defend them have fallen into or rather been misled up at the Universitie in these sins and corruptions and thereupon they retaine the taste of that wherewith they were first seasoned everie man being unwilling to be accounted imprudent which is ar gu ed by making retractations of former errours and being also suspicious and loath to entertaine any new custome or to decline from the Traditions of their Ancestors especially if they were reputed wise and learned And that is the reason why the Ceremonies and other corruptions in worship and Discipline which are lately abolished stuck so long upon as they did namely because Cranmer Latimer Ridley Hooper and other learned godly men left them to us at the beginning of Reformation although all those who left them did not approve of them Vide Fox Acts Mon. vol. 3. pa. 146.147 nor intended they should continue but that there should be a further Reformation as appears by the verie Rubrick of King Edwards Common Praier-Book and these had been soone abolished but for the reasons aforesaid And because the Prelates grew worse and worse as all men do who walk in an evill way until they return Pr. But what course is most probable and likely to bring on a Reformation Ph. Truly not to believe men that are interested and especially such who have hitherto laboured to drive on their own designs of honour and profit and are guided by principles of pride and covetousnese as the Ringleaders of the established pretended Clergie are who fearing to lose their fat morsels as a godly man said for their little labour abuse the State with false surmises and pretences of Reformation which they will never accomplish Pr. Why This famous Assemblie of learned Divines have long consulted about the affairs of the House of God and have propounded to the Parlament waies of Reformation and where it sticks I cannot tell Pr. I had almost said the Mountains have travelled and brought forth a mouse I wish for their good manie of them had less learning upon condition they had more conscience and honestie And that some Paphnutius who would not be lead by the multitude in their opinion but convince them soundly not by Philosophie but by the word of God were amongst them them to stir up those that are sincerely godlie who I doubt are but few and those wearied out with the noise of the multitude of them who vex their righteous souls from day to day by their ungodlie deeds And therefore not to trouble you further I must tell you I do so far dispair not of any Synod as one of the Fathers said but of this Assemblie their doing any good in point of Reformation That I hope and expect shortly that the Parlament will finde cause to send them away from Westminster with a charge to preach abroad in the Counties to leave Politicks and preach Christ and so endeavour to prepare the people for Reformation where their preaching may surely do more good then their State-Policie can do at Westminster And when that is done if the Parlament by fasting and Praier will solemnly seek and consult with God and then advise with such godly and learned men who are no way ingaged as formerly was done in the daies of King Edward the sixt when Paulus Phagius Martin Bucer and Peter Martyr and other strangers were called into England for that purpose who never received the mark of the Beast then I doubt not but to see a Reformation to some purpose and not before Pr. Well however let us not loose that we have to seek for that which it may be we shall never have our Parishes are true visible Churches of Christ and so confessed by the Ministers of New England and by Mr. Cotton in particular Ph. It may be some Ministers of New-England will say as much as you say yet that doth not make your Parishes true visible Churches As for Mr. Cotton he refused to take upon him the Charge of any parish-Parish-Church and upon that ground separated and renounced his Calling from the Bishops divers years before he went to new-New-England Lichfords news pag. 7.8 22. And the practise at New-England sheweth that they are not of our opinion for all the people professing Christianitie are not members of the visible Church but such as are admitted as Church-Members Pr. Well what ever some others think in all places in this Land where Parishes are divided there is either a lawfull Minister or one who stands in place of such who in some
degree preacheth or at least publisheth by reading the word of God and administreth the Sacraments to the people therefore in charitie they ought to be accounted the Church of God Ph. The division of Parishes and such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of are not sufficient to give the Parish Congregation the denomination of a visible Church of Christ For then must almost all the Congregations under the Papacie be visible Churches for amongst them the Parishes are divided and so they were in England almost 340. before any Reformation And those Popish Congregations had the word of God dailie read nay and preached constantly and expounded in manie places by their Friers and Postillers as may be seen by their works in Print Nay and their verie Mass-Books have much of the word of God in them although most miserably corrupted and mingled with their own inventions They have also had both Sacraments amongst the Papists for a long time and have yet at least Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 11. Baptisme mingled with Popish Ceremonies of which the Cross is the worst and some other footsteps of a true Church And if these had made a Congregation a true Church poore Penry was unwise to publish that a great part of Wales never had the face of a Church of Christ the Parishes being divided and the Churches furnished with such a Ministerie and Ordinances as you speak of Yet he and others have formerly charged the State with refusing the Gospel and rejecting Christ and his pure worship in as much as there was no Reformation although it cost him and others their lives for their boldnes Entri Cook Judit pa. 352. Pr. You speak of dark Corners of the Land as if none were in better condition you may finde amongst the manie thousand Parishes of this Nation manie visible Churches of Christ and mine in particular Ph. I doubt not but there are manie visible Churches of Christ in this Common-wealth and true Ministers of Christ lawfully called But when I pray you became your Parish to be a true visible Church of Christ Pr. My Parish hath been a visible Church ever since it was instituted and the Church founded you know not the contrarie and therefore ought to admit it having so continued beyond the memorie of man until this day Ph. When was your Church founded Pr. You your self have confessed that the Gospel was planted in England before Poperie came to its height and the Ministerie and Churches were then setled and had succession from the Apostles daies shew me when the Succession failed Ph. If I should admit the place that you call Church viz. the meeting Place to have been built before Poperie yet this proves not that the Congregation is a visible Church your succession hath had several interruptions and discontinuance First it is to be considered that the whole Current of Historie agree that the Romans commanded the better part of Brittaine from the time of Julius Caesar until Theodosius the younger which was almost five hundred years and the tenth Persecution about 337. years after Christ during which time there were not above five of the Emperours who were either Christians or shewed favour to Christians but generally all the rest first or last in their times were wicked Persecutors Heathens and worshippers of Idols some of which by exquisite Torments wasted the Churches of Christ and drove the Professors into corners they not daring to meet in publick When the Roman Empire was broken or at least was grown to an ebb the Saxons invaded this Island and about the year foure hundred and fiftie the Brittains were beaten into Wales by Gormundus and thence grew the great Colledge of Moncks at Bangor with whom Austin contended And the Saxons as well as the Romans were Heathens and had their Idol Priests Flammins and Arch-Flammins like the late Bishops and Arch-Bishops for dignitie and Power and these continued until about six hundred years after Christ where is now your Succession Pr. But yet there were manie faithful Christians both Pastors and others in the worst times and I could tell you of manie who suffered Martyrdome for Christ's cause in this Nation and if we cannot prove Succession it is rather for want of the light of Historie then for that there were no such Churches or Pastors Nevertheless from the time of the abolishing of the Heathens Hierarchie and Idolatrie which was done by King Ethelbert above a thousand years since we have a verie fair Succession Ph. This indeed manie of you boast of but it makes little for your purpose To omit to speak of the miserie brought upon this Land and the decay of the true Religion by meanes of the incursions or rather Conquests of the Saxons and Danes after Ethelberts time It is certain and you cannot denie it that all your successions both of Ministerie and Parish-Churches came from your Mother the Church or rather the Whore of Rome who had all at her devotion until King Henrie the eight drove out the Pope and kept Poperie Cath. Divine An. Caudreys Case P. 108.109 Bed l. 1. Hist Angl. ca. 22. 27. Pr. Well it s true that for about five hundred years untill the Reformation began the Bishop of Rome usurped authoritie over the Church of England but yet all did not submit alike some faithfull men escaped both Ministers and people as John Wickliff and his followers persecuted by the name of Lollards who grew in great number even in our Countrie about two hundred years before the Reformation From which time of Reformation you cannot denie but that my Parish in particular hath been a true visible Church where there hath been a competent number of faithful people and a Minister who claimed nothing from Rome for the Popes Supremacie was abolished by King Henrie the eight as you now said Ph. If the rejecting of the Popes Supremacie make your Parish a true Church then likewise are the most of the Popish Congregations of France true Churches for they likewise have rejected or refused to receive the Popes Supremacie and have not received the Councel of Trent but have had a Pope a Cardinal of their own for manie years past And Cardinal Richelieu called a Prince of the Church was as great a Pope as William Laud late Prelate of Canterburie Marc. de vulson des Libert de'l Eglise Gallicane lib. 3. pa. 233.234.235 Pr. You cannot denie the Succession of faithful Ministers which if you admit you must also admit the Succession of Churches since the time of Reformation Ph. For your Succession it s a mear dream If at any time there was no visible Parish-Churches then was there no Pastors of those Churches for although there may be a visible Church without a Pastor as when the Pastor dieth the Church is not unchurched yet can there be no Pastor of a Church unless there be such a Church in being And for your Succession since the last pretended Reformation it was interrupted in Queen