it is for a State to have their Subjects confess their secret thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit Sins absolutely but only with a condition of Repentance yet the people were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent Sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was performed in the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a point very difficult for a man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was Transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insist upon the dulness not only of common people but also of Kings and their Councelors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviours Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Pope's Authority they had many fine points in their Ecclesiastical Policy conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time for then it was the Order came up of Preaching-Friars that wandred up and down with power to Preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the people nothing that might lessen their obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak judgments confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or works of Piety and necessary for the remission of their Sins B. I do not remember that I read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private man to call the people together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendom I believe the Heathen K. foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the Preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the people and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperour Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Phylosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperour by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latine Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monastries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Dicipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easy to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the Maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Phylosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then what was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in
France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisy of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Shorthand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democraâ—ical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the world And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his Power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his Power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas beâ—â—â— the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express Licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to
every Man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like points are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans Duty to obey him or them that have the Sovereign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with arguments for liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Câ—cero Seâ—ica and 〈◊〉 of the Histories of 〈…〉 for their disputation against the 〈…〉 power of their 〈…〉 therefore I dispare of any 〈…〉 our selves till the 〈…〉 their studies to the 〈…〉 obedience to the Laws of the 〈…〉 to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory can do over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of state as is necessary for the Business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry the 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are Govern'd and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferiour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the hands of Popes Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergie B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or purses when they shal be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The 2 Great vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7 was without much noise of the people to â—ill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks me thinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchirstian and unhuman design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Aâ—tual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true poliâ—icks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey aâ— Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd suâ—â— as are fit to make Men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them to make Men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the â—ing and that no Man has Title to Govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to God onlâ— and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting â—or the coming again of our blessed Saviour and
they endeavour'd by a Bill then ready to pass to recruit the House and perpetuate their own Power Next he constituted a Council of State of his own Creatures to be the Supreme Authority of England but no longer than till the next Parliament should be call'd and met Thirdly he summon'd a hundred forty two Persons such as he himself or his trusty Officers made choice of the greatest part of whom were instructed what to do obscure Persons and most of them Phanaticks though stil'd by Cromwel men of approv'd Fidelity and Honesty to these the Council of State surrendred the Supreme Authority and not long after these Men surrendred it to Cromwel July the fourth this Parliament met and chose for their Speaker one Mr. Rous and called themselves from that time forward the Parliament of England But Cromwel for the more surety constituted also a Council of State not of such petty Fellows as most of these were but of himself and of his principal Officers These did all the business both publique and private making Ordinances and giving Audience to Foreign Ambassadors But he had now more Enemies than before Harrison who was the Head of the Fifth-Monarchy-Men laying down his Commission did nothing but animate his party against him for which afterward he was Imprisoned This little Parliament in the mean time were making of Acts so ridiculous and displeasing to the People that it was thought he chose them on purpose to bring all Ruling Parliaments into contempt and Monarchy again into Credit B. What Acts were these A. One of them was That all Marriages should be made by a Justice of Peace and the Banes asked three several days in the next Market None were forbidden to be married by a Minister but without a Justice of Peace the Marriage was to be void so divers wary Couples to be sure of one another howsoever they might repent it afterwards were married both ways also they Abrogated the Engagement whereby no man was admitted to sue in any Court of Law that had not taken it that is that had not acknowledged the late Rump B. Neither of these did any hurt to Cromwel A. They were also in Hand with an Act to Cancel all the present Laws and Law-Books and to make a new Code more suitable to the Humor of the Fifth-Monarchy-Men of whom there were many in this Parliament their Tenent being That there ought none to be Soveraign but King Jesus nor any to Govern under him but the Saints but their Authority ended before this Act passed B. What is this to Cromwel A. Nothing yet but they were likewise upon an Act now almost ready for the Question That Parliaments hence forward one upon the end of another should be Perpetual B. I understand not this unless Parliaments can beget one another like Animals or like the Phoenix A. Why not like the Phoenix Cannot a Parliament at the day of their Expiration send out Writs for a new one B. Do you think they would not rather Summon themselves anew and to save the labour of coming again to Westminster sit still where they were or if they summon the Counties to make new Elections and then Dissolve themselves by what Authority shall the People meet in their County-Courts there being no Supreme Authority standing A. All they did was absurd though they knew not that no nor this whose Design was upon the Soveraignty the Contrivers of this Act it seems perceiv'd not but Cromwel's Party in the House saw it well enough and therefore as soon as it was laid there stood up one of the Members and made a Motion that since the Common-Wealth was like to receive little benefit by their Sitting they should Dissolve themselves Harrison and they of his Sect was troubled hereat and made Speeches against it but Cromwel's party of whom the Speaker was one left the House and with the Mace before them went to White-Hall and surrendred their Power to Cromwel that had given it them and so he got the Soveraignty by an Act of Parliament and within four days after viz. December 16th was Installed Protector and took his Oath to observe certain Rules of Governing engrossed in Parchment and read before him the writing was called The Instrument B. What were the Rules he sware to A. One was to call a Parliament every third year of which the first was to begin September the third following B. I believe he was a little Superstitious in the Choice September the third because it was lucky in 1650 and 1651 at Dunbar and Worcester but he knew not how lucky the same would be to the whole Nation in 1658. at White-Hall A. Another was That no Parliament should be Dissolv'd till it had sitten five Moneths and those Bills that they then presented to him should be passed within twenty days by him or else they should pass without him A third That he should have a Council of State of not above twenty one nor under thirteen and that upon the Protectors Death this Council should meet and before they parted chuse a new Protector There were many more besides but not necessary to be inserted B. How went on the War against the Dutch A. The Generals for the English were Blake and Dean and Monk and Van Tromp for the Dutch between whom was a Battel fought the second of June which was a Month before the beginning of this little Parliament wherein the English had the Victory and drove the Enemies into their Harbours but with the loss of General Dean slain by a Cannon-shot This Victory was great enough to make the Dutch send over Ambassadors into England in order to a Treaty But in the mean time they prepared and put to Sea another Fleet which likewise in the end of July was defeated by General Monk who got now a greater Victory than before And this made the Dutch descend so far as to buy their Peace with the payment of the Charge of the War and with the acknowledgment among other Articles that the English had the right of the Flag This Peace was concluded in March being the end of this year but not proclaimed till April the Money it seems being not paid till then The Dutch War being now ended the Protector sent his youngest Son Henry into Ireland whom also some time after he made Lieutenant there and sent Monk Lieutenant General into Scotland to keep those Nations in Obedience Nothing else worth remembring was done this year at home saving the discovery of a Plot of Royalists as was said upon the life of the Protector who all this while had intelligence of the Kings Designs from a Traytor in his Court who afterwards was taken in the manner and kill'd B. How came he into so much trust with the King A. He was the Son of a Colonel that was slain in the Wars on the late King's side Besides he pretended Employment from the Kings loyal and loving Subjects here to convey to his Majesty Money as
him that Christ being King of all the World had given the disposing of all the Kingdoms therein to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have Power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western Parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the time of Pope Leo the 3. and Pope Innocent the 3. For in this time Pope Zachary 1. deposed Chilperick then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin And Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church shortly after the Lombards having recovered their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the 3. made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope there pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christs Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special Manner in such a Manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshua had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope for when the Pope inuested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cryed out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it and from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the gift of God and their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter â—rom a Bishop 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose gift they reign but it cannot from that Custom be infer'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation from the Pope or by any other Clergy for the Popes themselves received the Papacy from the Emperor the first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent excused himself by Letter to the Emperor with this that the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperour did but with Reprehension of their Proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come the Emperour was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperour never acknowledged this gift of God was the gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the gift of the Emperour but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperour for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the people believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than unto the Commands of their own King whensoever it should come into Controversy and to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome's Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scripture as first That it should not be lawful for a Priest to Marry What influence could that have upon the Power of Kings do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most Religious part of his Subjects or else want lawful Heirs to succeed in by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any Controversy between Him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for amongst them Episcopus was a name common to all Kings Is not he a Bishop now to whom God hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and of the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pasture of Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laick and Clergy and he only Shepheard and seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian indued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not only a Bishop but an Archbishop and his whole Kingdom his Diocess and though it were granted that Imposition of Hands were necessary for a Priest yet seeing Kings have the power of Government of the Clergy that are the Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self wherein he is received as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you this Prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh and William the First King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelers at his Service Secondly That Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that Confessed in writing but that use was taken away about the time of King Edward the Third and Priests commanded to take Confessions from the Mouth of the Confitent and men did generally believe that without Confession and Absolution before their departure out of the World they could not be saved and having Absolution from a Priest they could not be damned You understand by this how much every man would stand in awe of the Pope and Clergy more than they would of the King and what inconveniency
go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so what other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latine and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the Disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and Governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not onely the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the Concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church Government Canons and Common Prayer Book so did the other make them in love with Democracie by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourse and Communication with people in the Country continnually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyrany leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyrany was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less Learned And the Gentlemen envying the Privy Council whom they thought less wise than themselves for 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any Ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politick of the Ancient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not Publickly Preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Fryers had formerly done upon working days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a likeing of their Doctrines and good Opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching They so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have Acted the part of a right godly man better then these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any Ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the Vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to Despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the Anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them then to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther
not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of Reward and hope of Plunder some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deterr them from the Expedition as hoping by hâ— disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had formerly been accused to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so hardly of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliament to meet at Westminster the 13 of April 1640. B. Methinks a Parliament oâ— England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveteterate Disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which alwayes esteemed the Glory of England for an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of grievances and especially such way of levying money as in the last intermission of Parliament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship money for Knighthood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antient Records of the Kingdom besides they fell upon the Actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late it is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of Bargain for relinquishing his Right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he disolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same Men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to a mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Soveraignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loath to desert the King when he was Invaded by Forreiners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Forrein Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same being Governed by one King should be thought Forreiners to one another the Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the Common People the Priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the Contumelies of other Nations where they resided why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united unto one People A. King James at his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail but for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturaliz'd and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James And was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A. I understand not the subtilty of the Distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded Is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little Equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King James's comeing in What greater Priviledges had those Ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch B. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions Yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France and therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Forreiners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scotch Army was drawn up to the Frontiers and ready to march into England which
or at least make great difficulty to furnish the King with Mony necessary for the most urgent occasions of the Commonwealth B. How then can a King discharge his Duty as he ought to do or the Subject know which of his Masters he is to Obey For here are manifestly two Powers which when they chance to differ cannot both be Obeyed A. 'T is true but they have not often differed so much to the danger of the Common-wealth as they have done in this Parliament of 1640. In all the Parliaments of the late King Charles before the year 1640. my Lord of Strafford did appear in opposition to the Kings Demands as much as any man and was for that Cause very much esteemed and cried up by the People as a good Patriot and one that couragiously stood up in defence of their Liberties and for the same cause was so much the more hated when afterwards he endeavoured to maintain the Royal and Just Aâ—thority of his Majesty B. How came he to change his mind so much as it seems he did A. After the Dissolution of that Parliament holden in the year 1627 and 1628 the King finding no Mony to be gotten from Parliaments which he was not to buy with the Blood of such Servants and Ministers as he loved best abstained a long time from calling any more and had abstained longer if the Rebellion of the Scotch had not forced him to it During that Parliament the King made Sir Thomas Wentworth a Baron recommended to him for his great ability which was generally taken notice of by the disservice he had done the King in former Parliaments but which might be usefull also for him in the times that came on and not long after that he made him of the Counsel and again Lieutenant of Ireland which place he discharged with great satisfaction and benefit to his Majesty and continued in that Office till by the Envy and Violence of the Lords and Commons of that unlucky Parliament of 1640. he died in which year he was made General of the Kings Forces against the Scotch that then entred into England and the year before Earl of Strafford The Pacification being made and the Forces on both sides Disbanded and the Parliament at Westminster now Sitting It was not long before the House of Commons accused him to the House of Lords of High Treason B. There was no great probability of his being a Traitor to the King from whose favour he had received his greatness and from whose Protection he 〈◊〉 to expect his safety What was the Treason they laid to his Charge A. Many Articles were drawn up against him but the summ of them was contained in these two First That he had traiterously endeavour'd to subvert the Fundamental Laws and Government of the Realm and instead thereof to introduce an Arbitrary and Tyranical Government against Law Secondly That he had laboured to subvert the Rights of Parliaments and the Antient course of Parliamentary Proceedings B. Was this done by him without the knowledge of the King A. No. B. Why then if it were Treason did not the King himself call him in Question by his Attorney What had the House of Commons to do without his Command to accuse him to the House of Lords They might have complain'd to the King if he had not known it before I understand not this Law A. Nor I. B. Had this been by any former Statutes made Treason A. Not that I ever heard of nor do I understand that any thing can be Treason against the King that the King hearing and knowing does not think Treason But it was a piece of that Parliaments Artifice to put the word Traiterously to any Article exhibited against a man whose life they meant to take away B. Was there no particular Instance of action or words out of which they argued that endeavour of his to subvert the fundamental Laws of Parliament whereof they accused him A. Yes they said he gave the King Counsel to reduce the Parliament to their duty by the Irish Army which not long before my Lord of Strafford himself had caused to be leavied there for the Kings service but it was never proved against him that he advised the King to make use of it against the Parliament B. What are those Laws that are called fundamental for I understand not how one Law can be more fundamental than another except only that Law of Nature that binds us all to obey him whosoever he be whom lawfully and for our own safety wee have promised to obey nor any other fundamental Law to a King but Salus Populi The safety and well being of his People A. This Parliament in the use of these words when they accused any Man never regarded the signification of them but the weight they had to aggravate their accusation to the Ignorant multitudes which think all faults heinous that are exprest in heinous termes If they hate the Reason accused as they did this Man not only for being of the Kings party but also for deserting the Parliaments party as an Apostate B. I pray you tell me also what they meant by Arbitrary Government which they seemed so much to hate Is there any Governour of a People in the World that is forced to Govern them or forced to make this and that Law whether he will or no! I think or if any be that forces him does certainly make Laws and Govern Arbitrarily A. That is true and the true meaning of the Parliament was that not the King but they themselves should have the Arbitrary Government not only of England but of Ireland and as it appeared by the event of Scotland also B. How the King came by the Government of Scotland and Ireland By descent of his Ancesters every body can tell but if the King of England and his heirs should chance which God-forbid to fail I cannot imagine what Title the Parliament of England can acquire thereby to either of those Nations A. Yet they say they have been conquered Antiently by the English Subjects Money B. Like enough and suitable to the rest of their Impudence A. Impudence In Democratical Assemblies does almost all that is done 'T is the Goddess of Rhetorick and carries on proof with it for ought ordinary Man will not from so great boldness of Affirmation conclude there is great boldness of affirmation conclude there is great probability in the King affirmed upon this accusation he was brought to his Tryal at Westminster hall before the House of Lords and found guilty and presently after declared a Traytor by a Bill of attainder that is by Act of Parliament B. It is a strange thing that the Lords should be induced upon so light Grounds to give â— sentence or give their assent to a Bill so prejudicial to themselves and their posterity A. 'T was not well done and yet as it seems not ignorantly for there is a clause in the Bill that it should not be taken hereafter
but his Trial and Execution were deferred a long time till January 10. 1643. for the entertainment of the Scots that were come into England to aid the Parliament B. Why did the Scots think there was so much danger in the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury he was not a Man of War nor a Man able to bring an Army into the Field but he was perhaps a very great Politician A. That did not appear by any remarkable events of his Councils I never heard but he was a very honest man for his Morals and a very zealous promoter of the Church Government by Bishops and that he desired to have the Service of God performed and the House of God adorned as suitably as was possible to the honour we ought to do to the Divine Majesty But to bring as he did into the State his Former Controversies I mean his squablings in the University about Free Will and his standing upon Punctilio's concerning the Service-Book and its Rubricks was not in my opinion an Argument of his sufficiency in Affairs of State About the same time they passed an Act which the King consented to for a Triennial Parliament wherein was Enacted That after the present Parliament there should be a Parliament call'd by the King within the space of three years and so from three years to three years to meet at Westminster upon a certain day named in the Act. B. But what if the King did not call it finding it perhaps inconvenient or Hurtfull to to the Safety or Peace of his People which God hath put into his Charge for I do not well comprehend how any Soveraign can well keep a People in order when his hands are tiâ—d or when he hath any other Obligation upon him than the benefit of those he Governs And at this time for any thing you told me they acknowledged the King for their Sovereign A. I know not but such was the Act And it was farther Enacted That if the King did it not by his own Command then the Lord Chancellour or the Lord Keeper for the time being should send out the Writs of Summons And if the Chancellour refused then the Sheriffs of the several Counties of themselves at the next County Courts before the day set down for the Parliaments meeting should proceed to the Election of the Members for the said Parliament B. But what if the Sheriffs refused A. I think they were to be sworn to it but for that and other particulars I refer you to the Act. B. To whom should they be sworn when there is no Parliament A. No doubt but to the King whether there be a Parliament sitting or no. B. Then the K. may Release them of their Oath A. Besides They obtained of the King the putting down the Star Chamber and the High Commission Courts B. Besides If the King upon the refusal should fall upon them in Anger Who shall the Parliament not sitting Protect either the Chancellor or the Sheriffs in their Disobedience A. I pray you do not ask me any Reason of such things I understand no better than you I tell you only an Act passed to that purpose and was Sâ—gned by the King in the middle of February a little before the Arch Bishop was sent to the Tower Besides this Bill the two Houses of Parliament agreed upon another wherein it was Enacted That the present Parliament would continue till both the Houses did consent to the Dissolution of it which Bill also the King Signed the same day he Signed the Warrant for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford B. What a great Progress made the Parliament towards the ends of the most seditious Members of both Houses in so little time They sat down in November and now it was May in this space of time which is but half a year they won from the King the Adhearance which was due to him from his People they drove his faithfullest Servants from him beheaded the Earl of Strafford Imprisoned the Arch Bishop of Canterbury obtained a Triennial Parliament after their Own dissolution and a continuance of their own sitting as long as they listed which last a mounted to a total extinction of the Kings right in case that such a grant were vaild which I think it is not unless the soveraignty it self be in plain termes renounced which it was not but what money by way of subsidue or otherwise did they grant the King in recompence of all these his large concessions A. None at all but often promised they would make him the most glorious King that ever was in England which were words that passed well enough for wel meaning with the common People B. But the Parliament was contented now for I cannot imagine what they should desire more from the King than he had now granted them A Yes they desired the whole and absolute soveraignty and to change the Monarchical government into an Oligarchie that is to say to make the Parliament consisting of a few Lords and about 400 Commoners absolute in the soveraignty for the present and shortly after to lay the house of Lords aside for this was the design of the Presbyterian Ministers who taking themselves to be by Divine right the onely Lawful governers of the Church endeavoured to bring the same form of Government into the Civil state and as the spiritual Laws were to be made by their Synods so their Civil Laws should be made by the House of Commons who as they thought would no less be ruled by them afterwards than formerly they had been wherein they were deceived and found themselves out gon by their own Disciples though not in malice yet in Wit B. What followed after this A. In August following the King supposing he had now sufficiently obliged the Parliament to proceed no farther against him took a journey into Scotland to satisfy his Subjects there as he had done here intending perhaps so to gain their good wills that in case the Parliament here should levy Armes against him they should not be aided by the Scots wherein he also was deceived for though they seemed satisfied with what he did whereof one thing was his giveing away to the Aâ—olction of Episcopacy Yet afterwards they made a League with the Parliament and for money when the King began to have the better of the Parliament invaded England in the Parliaments Quarrel but this was a Year or two after B. Before you go any farther I desire to know the ground and Original of that Right which either the House of Lords or House of Commons or both together pretend to A. It is a question of things so long past that they are now forgotten nor have we any thing to conjecture by but the Records of our own Nation and some small and obscure fragments of Roman Histories And for the Records seeing they are of things only done sometimes justly sometimes unjustly you can never by them know what Right they had but only what right they pretended B.
Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Antient Authors that speake of the formes of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancesters the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Arguments of Right but only examples of fact which by the Ambition of Potent Subjects have been oftner unjust then otherwise and for those Saxons or Angels that in Antient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of Divers Petty German Lords and states such as was the Graecian Army in the Trojan War without other Obligations than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness nor were these Lords for the most part the soveraigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity that when they had conquer'd any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof the rest should have greater Priviledges than the Common People and Souldiers amongst which Priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Council with him that hath the Soveraignty in matters of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Soveraign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the Kings Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those honours and places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of Discreet and Wise men of the Kingdom and hear their Councils and make them Judges of all Causes that during their Sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever at his pleasure power to Dissolve them The Normans also that Descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this Priviledge have the Lords to be of your Kings great Council and when they were assembled to be the highest of the Kings Court of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only name of Baron a name receiv'd from the Antient Gauls amongst whom that name signified the King's Man or rather one of his great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Council when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's great Council A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some Discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Council though they were not Lords But that is nothing to the House of Commons the Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the mis behaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time of Henry the third the Lords were Descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France But after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue fail'd Titularly only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being bound no longer to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Council And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased But I do not find that they were part of the Kings Council at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other But I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for Redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Souldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castle whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had Designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently lest it to the Chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got togeter a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The Manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a Change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in
raised to fight against him A. Nay farther they put to the King's Accompts the 30000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have Invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great Impudence and Villany in Mankind A. You have not observ'd the world long enough to see all that 's ill Such was their Remonstrance as I have told you with it they sent a Petition containing three points First That His Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in Secondly That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and Imploy in his great and publick Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in Thirdly That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lions Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself Exhibited Articles against six persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Commons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the fourth of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated His Majesties Intention and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a High Breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterwards wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament-House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the Word they used instead of Cruelty B. This was a harsh Demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus Tyraniâ—e over the King before they have gotten the Soveraign Power into their Hands how will they Tyranize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Committee in London A. Not above 2 or 3 Days and then were brought from London to the Parliament-House by Water in great Triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make Traiterous Acts against Him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these Tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction for at this time tâ—e Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of Violence upon their Persons insomuch that Twelve of them excused themselves of Coming thither and by way of Perition to the King remonstrated that they were not permitted to go quietly to the Performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none Effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced Absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon Ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there was no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament And to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of Sept. after they Voted the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the Kings Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members For I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower-House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democrasie and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole world What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls
thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the Chief Men among them named in a Catalogue and when the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude Elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his Life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the Custom of the Country neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the begining is establisht amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemn'd to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of Death who seeing the Token goes presently to his own house and kills himself presently after But the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the Death of their Kings for the Priests that live in Meroe and spend their time about the worship and honour of the gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him die for that the gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by nature Mortal using also other speeches to him with men of simple Judgment that have not reason enough to dispute against those unnecessary Commands as being educated under an old and indelible Custom are content to admit of therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his Breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with souldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were kill'd were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so But were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King kill'd them for the safety of his person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People the Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the Command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the Incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the Death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near one hundred thousand persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps a thousand had been all kill'd before that they had Preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of a hundred thousand is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to commend either the Divinity nor the Philosophy of those Heathen People but to shew only what the Reputation of those Sciences can effect among the People For their Divinity was nothing but Idolatry and their Philosophy excepting the knowledge of the Aegyptian Priests and from them the Chaldaeans had gotten by long Observation and Study in Astronomy Geometry and Arithmetick very little and that in great part abused in Astrology and Fortune-telling whereas the Divinity of the Clergy in this Nation now considered apart from the mixture that has been introduced by the Church of Rome and in part retained here of the babling Philosophy of Aristotle and other Greeks that has no Affinity with Religion and serves only to breed Disaffection Dissention and finally Sedition and Civil War as we have lately found by dear Experience in the Differences between the Presbyterians and Episcopals is the true Religion But for these Differences both Parties as they were in Power not only suppressed the Tenents of one another but also whatsoever Doctrine lookt with an ill aspect upon their Interest and consequently all true Philosophy especially Civil and Moral which can never appear propitious to Ambition or to an Exemption from Obedience due to the Soveraign Power After the King had accused the Lord Kimbolton a Member of the Lords House and Hollis Haslâ—rig Hampden Prinn and Stroud Five Members of the Lower House of High Treason and after the Parliament had Voted out the Bishops from the House of Peers they pursued especially two things in their Petitions to His Majesty the one was that the King would declare who were the persons that advised him to go as he did to the Parliament-House to apprehend them and that he would leave them to the Parliament to receive condign punishment and this they did to stick upon His Majesty the dishonour of Deserting his Friends and betraying them to his Enemies the other was that he would allow a Guard out of the City of London to be commanded by the Earl of Essex for which they pretended they could not else sit in safety which pretence was nothing but an upbraiding of His Majesty for coming to Parliament better accompanied than ordinary to seize the said five seditious Members B. I see no reason in petitioning for a Guard they should determine it to the City of London in particular and the Command by name to the Earl of Essex unless they meant the King should understand it a Guard against himself A. Their meaning was that the King should understand it so and as I verily believe they meant he should take it as an affront and the King himself understanding it so denied to grant it though he were willing if they could not otherwise be satisfied to Command such a Guard to wait upon them as he would be responsible for to God Almighty Besides this the City of London petition'd the King put upon it no doubt by some Members of the Lower House to put the Tower of London into the hands of persons of Trust meaning such as the Parliament should approve of And so appoint a Guard for the safety of His Majesty and the Parliament This method of bringing petitions in a Tumultary Manner by great Multitudes of Clamorous people was ordinary with the House of Commons whose Ambition could never have been served by way of Prayer and Request without extraordinary terror After the King had waved the
made whether they be Good or Bad whereas the words signifie no more but that he shall protect and corroborate such Laws as they have chosen that is to say the Acts of Parliament then in being And in the Records of the Exchequer it is thus Will you grant to hold and keep the Laws and rightful Customs which the Commonalty of this your Kingdom have And will you defend and uphold them c And this was the Answer His Majesty made to that Point B. I think his Answer very full and clear but if the words were to be interpreted in the other sense yet I see no reason why the King should be bound to swear to them for Henry IV. came to the Crown by the Votes of a Parliament not much inferior in wickedness to this Long Parliament that Deposed and Murdered their Lawful King saving that it was not the Parliament it self but the Usurper that murdered King Richard II. A. About a week after in the beginning of May the Parliament sent the King another Paper which they stil'd The Humble Petition and Advice of both Houses Containing Nineteen Propositions which when you shall hear you shall be able to judge what Power they meant to leave to the King more than to any of his Subjects The first of them is this I. That the Lords and other of His Majesties Privy Council and all great Officers of State both at home and abroad be put from their Imployments and from his Council save only such as should be approved of by both Houses of Parliament and none put into their places but by approbation of the said Houses And that all Privy Councillors take an Oath for the due Execution of their places in such form as shall be agreed upon by the said Houses II. That the great Affairs of the Kingdom be Debated Resolv'd and Transacted only in Parliament and such as shall presume to do any thing to the contrary to be reserv'd to the Censure oâ— the Parliament and such other Matters of State as are proper for His Majesties Privy Couneil shall be Debated and Concluded by such as shall from time to time be chosen for that place by both Houses of Parliament And that no Publick Act concerning the Affairs of the Kingdom which are proper for his Privy Council be esteemed valid as proceeding from the Royal Authority unless it be done by the Advice and Consent of the Major part of the Council attested under their Hands and that the Council be not more than 25 nor less than 15 and that when a Councillors place falls it shall not be supplied without the Assent of the Major part of the Council and that such Choice also shall be void if the next Parliament after confirm it not III. That the Lord High Steward of England Lord High Constable Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal Lord Treasurer Lord Privy Seal Earl Marshal Lord Admiral Warden of the Cinque Ports Chief Governor of Ireland Chancellor of the Exchequer Master of the Wards Secretaries of State Two Chief Justices and Chief Baron be always chosen with the Approbation of both Houses of Parliament and in the Intervals of Parliament by the Major part of the Privy Council IV. That the Government of the King's Children shall be committed to such as both Houses shall approve of and in the Intervals of Parliament such as the Privy Council shall approve of that the Servants then about them against whom the Houses have just exception should be remov'd V. That no Marriage be concluded or treated of for any of the King's Children without consent of Parliament VI. That the Laws in force against Jesuits Priests and Popish Recusants be strictly put in execution VII That the Votes of Popish Lords in the House of Peers be taken away and that a Bill be passed for the Education of the Children of Papists in the Protestant Religion VIII That the King will be pleas'd to reform the Church-Government and Liturgy in such manner as both Houses of Parliament shall advise IX That he would be pleased to rest satisfied with that course the Lords and Commons have appointed for ordering the Militia and recall his Declarations and Proclamations against it X. That such Members as have been put out of any Place or Office since this Parliament began may be restor'd or have satisfaction XI That all Privy Councillors and Judges take an Oath the form whereof shall be agreed on and setled by Act of Parliament for the maintaining the Petition of Right and of certain Statutes made by the Parliament XII That all the Judges and Officers placed by Approbation of both Houses of Parliament may held their places quamdiu bene se gesserint XIII That the Justice of Parliament may pass upon all Delinquents whether they be within the Kingdom or fled out of it and that all persons cited by either House of Parliament may appear and abide the Censure of Parliament XIV That the General Pardon offered by his Majesty be granted with such Exceptions as shall be advised by both Houses of Parliament B. What a spightful Article was this All the rest proceeded from Ambition which many times well-natur'd men are subject to but this proceeded from an inhumane and devilish cruelty A. XV. That the Forts and Castles be put under the Command of such Persons as with the Approbation of the Parliament the King shall appoint XVI That the extraordinary Guards about the King be discharged and for the future none raised but according to the Law in case of actual Rebellion or Invasion B. Methinks these very Propositions sent to the King are an actual Rebellion A. XVII That His Majesty enter into a more strict Alliance with the United Provinces and other Neighbour Protestant Princes and States XVIII That His Majesty be pleased by Act of Parliament to clear the Lord Kimbolton and the Five Members of the House of Commons in such manner as that future Parliaments may be secur'd from the consequence of evil Precedent XIX That His Majesty be pleased to pass a Bill for restraining Peers made hereafter from sitting or voting in Parliament unless they be admitted with consent of both Houses of Parliament These Propositions granted they promise to apply themselves to regulate His Majesties Revenue to his best advantage and to settle it to the support of his Royal Dignity in Honour and Plenty and also to put the Town of Hull into such hands as His Majesty shall appoint with consent of Parliament B. Is not that to put it into such hands as His Majesty shall appoint by the consent of the Petitioners which is no more than to keep it in their hands as it is Did they want or think the King wanted common sense so as not to perceive that their promise herein was worth nothing A. After the sending of these Propositions to the King and His Majesties refusal to grant them they began on both sides to prepare for War the King raising
a Guard for his Person in Yorkshire and the Parliament thereupon having Voted That the King intended to make War upon his Parliament gave Order for the Mustering and Exercising the People in Arms and published Propositions to invite and encourage them to bring in either ready Money or Plate or to promise under their hands to maintain certain numbers of Horse Horsemen and Arms for the defence of the King and Parliament meaning by King as they had formerly declar'd not his Person but his Laws promising to repay their Money with Interest of 8 l. in the hundred and the value of their Plate with 12 d. the ounce for the fashion On the other side the King came to Nottingham and there did set up his Standard Royal and sent out Commissioners of Array to call those to him which by the ancient Laws of England were bound to serve him in the Wars Upon this occasion there passed divers Declarations between the King and Parliament concerning the Legality of this Array which are too long to tell you at this time B. Nor do I desire to hear any Mooting about this Question for I think that general Law of Salus Populi and the Right of defending himself against those that had taken from him the Sovereign Power are sufficient to make Legal whatsoever he should do in order to the recovery of his Kingdom or the punishing of the Rebels A. In the mean time the Parliament raised an Army and made the Earl of Essex General thereof by which Act they declar'd what they meant formerly when they Petition'd the King for a Guard to be commanded by the said Earl of Essex And now the King sends out his Proclamations forbidding Obedience to the Orders of the Parliament concerning the Militia and the Parliament send out Orders against the Executions of the Commissions of Array hitherto though it were a War before yet there was no Blood shed they shot at one another nothing but Paper B. I understand now how the Parliament destroy'd the Peace of the Kingdom and how easily by the help of seditious Presbyterian Ministers and of ambitious ignorant Orators they reduced the Government into Anarchy but I believe it will be a harder task for them to bring in Peace again and settle the Government either in themselves or in any other Governor or form of Government for granting that they obtain'd the Victory in this War they must be beholding for it to the Valor good Conduct or Felicity of those to whom they give the Command of their Armies especially to the General whose good success will without doubt bring with it the love and admiration of the Soldiers so that it will be in his power either to take the Government upon himself or to place it where himself thinks good In which Case if he take it not to himself he will be thought a Fool and if he do he shall be sure to have the Envy of his subordinate Commanders who will look for a share either in the present Government or in the Succession to it for they will say has he obtain'd this Power by his own without our Danger Valor and Council And must we be his Slaves whom we have thus rais'd Or is not there as much Justice on our side against him as was on his side against the King A. They will and did insomuch that the reason why Cromwel after he had gotten into his own hands the absolute Power of England Scotland and Ireland by the Name of Protector did never dare to take upon him the Title of King nor was ever able to settle it upon his Children his Officers would not suffer it as pretending after his death to succeed him nor would the Army consent to it because he had ever declared to them against the Government of a Single Person B. But to return to the King What Means had he to pay What Provision had he to Arm nay Means to Levy an Army able to resist the Army of the Parliament maintained by the great Purse of the City of London and Contributions of almost all the Towns Corporate in England and furnished with Arms as fully as they could require A. 'T is true the King had great disadvantages and yet by little and little he got a considerable Army with which he so prospered as to grow stronger every day and the Parliament weaker till they had gotten the Scotch with an Army of 21000 Men to come into England to their assistance but to enter into the particular Narrative of what was done in the War I have not now time B. Well then we will talk of that at next meeting B. WE left at the Preparations on both sides for War which when I considered by my self I was mightily puzled to find out what possibility there was for the King to equal the Parliament in such a course and what hopes He had of Money Men Arms Fortified Places Shipping Council and Military Offices sufficient for such an Enterprize against the Parliament that had Men and Money as much at Command as the City of London and other Corporation Towns were able to furnish which was more than they needed And for the Men they should set forth for Soldiers they were almost all of them spightfully bent against the King and his whole Party whom they took to be either Papists or Flatterers of the King or that had design'd to raise their Fortunes by the Plunder of the City and other Corporation Towns and though I believe not that they were more valiant than other Men nor that they had so much experience in the War as to be accounted good Soldiers yet they had that in them which in time of Battel is more conducing to Victory than Valor and Experience both together and that was Spight And for Arms they had in their hands the chief Magazines the Tower of London and Kingston upon Hull besides most of Powder and Shot that lay in several Towns for the use of the Trained Bonds Fortified places there were not many then in England and most of them in the hands of the Parliament The King's Fleet was wholly in their Command under the Earl of Warwick Councillors they needed no more than such as were of their own Body so that the King was every way inferior to them except it were perhaps in Officers A. I cannot compare their chief Officers for the Parliament the Earl of Essex after the Parliament had Voted the War was made General of all their Forces both in England and Ireland from whom all other Commanders were to receive their Commissions B. What moved them to make the Earl of Essex General And for what cause was the Earl of Essex so displeased with the King as to accept that Office A. I do not certainly know what to answer to either of those Questions but the Earl of Essex had been in the Wars abroad and wanted neither Experience Judgment nor Courage to perform such an undertaking and besides that you
design'd to set up a Tyrannical Power and to that end had rais'd and maintain'd in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the Publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any twenty had power to try the King and proceed to Sentence according to the Merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday January 20. in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them sitting in a Chair He heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or not Guilty till he should know by what lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him that the Parliament affirm'd their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this is the sum of all on Monday January 22. the Court met again and the Sollicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denied their Authority They met again January 23. and then the Sollicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his Final Answer which was again a denial of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27. where the King then desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court the Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King again to be brought to the Bar and told him that what he propos'd was but another denial of the Courts Jurisdiction and that if he had no more to say they would proceed to Judgment Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in justification of the Parliaments proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings kill'd or depos'd by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavour'd to justifie from this only Principle that the People have the Supreme Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of Death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January the 30. executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-Hall He that can delight in reading how villanously he was used by the Souldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what courage patience wisdom and goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament stil'd Traytor Tyrant and Murderer The King being dead the same day they made an Act of Parliament That whereas several pretences might be made to the Crown c. it is Enacted by this present Parliament and Authority of the same that no Person shall presume to declare proclaim or publish or any way promote Charles Stuart Son of Charles late King of England commonly called Prince of Wales or any other Person to be King of England and Ireland c. B. Seeing the King was dead and his Successors barr'd by what declar'd Authority was the Peace maintained A. They had in their anger against the Lords formerly declar'd the Supreme Power of the Nation to be in the House of Commons and now on February the fifth they Vote the House of Lords to be useless and dangerous And thus the Kingdom was turn'd into a Democracy or rather an Oligarchy for presently they made an Act That none of those Members who were secluded for opposing the Vote of Non-Addresses should ever be re-admitted And these were commonly called the Secluded Members and the rest were by some stiled a Parliament and by others a Rump I think you need not now have a Catalogue either of the Vices or of the Crimes or of the Follies of the greatest part of them that composed the Long-Parliament than which greater cannot be in the World What greater Vices than Irreligion Hypocrisie Avarice and Cruelty which have appear'd so eminently in the actions of Presbyterian Members and Presbyterian Ministers What greater Crimes than Blasphemy and killing Gods Anointed which was done by the hands of the Independents but by the folly and first Treason of the Presbyterians who betrayed and sold him to his Murderers Nor was it a little folly in the Lords not to see that by the taking away of the Kings Power they lost withall their own Priviledges or to think themselves either for number or judgment any way a considerable assistance to the House of Commons And for those men who had skill in the Laws it was no great sign of understanding not to perceive that the Laws of the Land were made by the King to oblige his Subjects to Peace and Justice and not to oblige himself that made them Lastly and generally all men are Fools which pull down any thing which does them good before they have set up something better in its place He that would set up Democracy with an Army should have an Army to maintain it but these men did it when those men had the Army that were resolv'd to pull it down To these follies I might add the follies of those five men which out of their reading of Tully Seneca and other Antimonarchicks think themselves sufficient Politicks and shew their discontents when they are not called to the management of the State and turn from one side to the other upon every neglect they fancy from the King or his Enemies A. YOU have seen the Rump in possession as they believ'd of the Supreme Power over the two Nations of England and Ireland and the Army their Servant though Cromwel thought otherwise serving them diligently for the advancement of his own purpose I am now therefore to shew you their proceedings B. Tell me first how this kind of Government under the Rump or Relick of a House of Commons is to be call'd A. 'T is doubtless an Oligarchy for the Supreme Authority must needs be in one man or in in more if in one it is Monarchy the Rump therefore was no Monarchy if the Authority were in more than one it was in all or in fewer than all when in all it is Democracy for every man may enter into the Assembly which makes the Soveraign Court which they could not do here It is therefore manifest the Authority was in a few and consequently the State was an Oligarchy B. It is not impossible for a people to be well govern'd that are to obey more Masters than one A. Both the Rump and all other Soveraign Assemblies if they have but one voice though they be many men yet are they but one Person for contrary Commands cannot consist in one and the same voice which is the voice of the greatest part and
an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Latine both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man so like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act which runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by to Authority thereof That the People of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words You shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They banished also from within 20 Miles of London all the loyal Party forbidding every one of them to depart more than five Miles from his dwelling-house B. They meant perhaps to have them ready if need were for a Massacre But what did the Scots in this time A. They were considering of the Officers of the Army which they were levying for the King how they might exclude from Command all such as had loyally serv'd his now Majesty's Father and all Independents and all such as commanded in Duke Hamilton's Army And these were the main things that passed this year The Marquess of Montross that had in the year 1645. with a few men and in a little time done things almost incredible against the late King's Enemies in Scotland landed now again in the beginning of the Year 1650. in the North of Scotland with Commission from the present King hoping to do him as good service as he had formerly done his Father but the case was alter'd for the Scotch Forces were then in England in the service of the Parliament whereas now they were in Scotland and many more for their intended Invasion newly rais'd Besides the Souldiers which the Marquess brought over were few and Forreigners nor did the High-landers come in to him as he expected insomuch as he was soon defeated and shortly after taken and with more spiteful usage than revenge requir'd Executed by the Covenanters at Edinborough May the 2d B. What good could the King expect from joyning with these men who during the Treaty discover'd so much malice to him in one of his best Subjects A. No doubt their Church-men being then prevalent they would have done as much to this King as the English Parliament had done to his Father if they could have gotten by it that which they foolishly aspir'd to the Government of the Nation I do not believe that the Independents were worse than the Presbyterians both the one and the other were resolv'd to destroy whatsoever should stand in the way to their Ambition but necessity made the King pass over both this and many other Indignities from them rather than suffer the pursuit of his Right in England to cool and be little better than extinguished B. Indeed I believe the Kingdom if suffered to become an old Debt will hardly ever be recover'd Besides the King was sure where ever the Victory lighted he could lose nothing in the War but Enemies A. About the time of Montrosses death which was in May Cromwel was yet in Ireland and his work unfinished but finding or by his Friends advertis'd that his presence in the Expedition now preparing against the Scots would be necessary to his Design sent to the Rump to know their pleasure concerning his return But for all that he knew or thought it was not necessary to stay for their Answer but came away and arriv'd at London the sixth of June following and was welcom'd by the Rump Now had General Fairfax who was truly what he pretended to be a Presbyterian been so Catechis'd by the Presbyterian Ministers here that he refus'd to fight against the Brethren in Scotland nor did the Rump nor Cromwel go about to rectifie his Conscience in that point And thus Fairfax laying down his Commission Cromwel was now made General of all the Forces in England and Ireland which was another step to the Soveraign Power B. Where was the King A. In Scotland newly come over he landed in the North and was honourably conducted to Edinborough though all things was not yet well agreed upon between the Scots and him for he had yielded to as hard Conditions as the late King had yielded to in the Isle of Wight yet they had still somewhat to add till the King enduring no more departed from them towards the North again But they sent Messengers after him to pray him to return but they furnished these Messengers with strength enough to bring him back if he should have refus'd In fine they agreed but would not suffer the King or any Royalist to have Command in the Army B. The sum of all is the King was their Prisoner A. Cromwel from Berwick sends a Declaration to the Scots telling them he had no Quarrel against the people of Scotland but against the Malignant Party that had brought in the King to the disturbance of the Peace between the two Nations and that he was willing by Conference to give and receive satisfaction or to decide the Justice of the Cause by Battel To which the Scots answering declare That they will not prosecute the Kings Interest before and without his acknowledgment of the sins of his House and his former ways and satisfaction given to Gods people in both Kingdoms Judge by this whether the present King were not in as bad a condition here as his Father was in the hands of the Presbyterians of England B. Presbyterians are every where the same they would fain be absolute Governours of all they converse with and have nothing to plead for it but that where they reign 't is God that reigns and no where else But I observe one strange
generally hated the Rump and might easily be reckoned for 20000 well armed Souldiers and most men believed they would have taken his part had he come near the City B. What probability was there of that Do you think the Rump was not sure of the service of the Mayor and those that Commanded the City Militia And if they had been really the Kings Friends what need had they to stay his coming up to London They might have seiz'd the Rump if they had pleas'd which had no possibility of defending themselves at least they might have turn'd them out of the House A. This they did not but on the contrary permitted the recruiting of Cromwel's Army and the raising of men to keep the Country from coming in to the King The King began his march from Sterling the last of July and Aug. 22. came to Worcester by the way of Carlisle with a weary Army of about 13000 whom Cromwel followed and joining with the new Levies environ'd Worcester with 40000 and on the third of September utterly defeated the Kings Army Here Duke Hamilton brother of him that was beheaded was slain B. What became of the King A. Night coming on before the City was quite taken he left it being dark and none of the Enemies Horse within the Town to follow him the plundering Foot having kept the Gates shut lest the Horse should enter and have a share of the Booty The King before morning got into Warwickshire 25 Miles from Worcester and there lay disguised a while and afterwards went up and down in great danger of being discovered till at last he got over into France from Brighthempstead in Sussex B. When Cromwel was gone what was farther done in Scotland A. Lieutenant Gen. Monk whom Cromwel left there with 7000 took Sterling August the 14th by surrender and Dundee the third of September by Storm because it resisted this the Souldiers plundered and had good booty because the Scots for safety had sent thither their most precious Goods from Edinburrough and St. Johnston's he took likewise by surrender Aberdeen and the place where the Scotish Ministers first learn'd to play the Fools St. Andrews Also in the Highlands Colonel Alured took a knot of Lords and Gentlemen viz. four Earls and four Lords and above twenty Knights and Gentlemen whom he sent Prisoners into England so that there was nothing more to be fear'd from Scotland all the trouble of the Rump was to resolve what they should do with it at last they resolv'd to Unite and Incorporate it into a Common-wealth with England and Ireland and to that end sent thither St. Johns Vane and other Commissioners to offer them this Union by publique Declaration and to warn them to chuse their Deputies of Shires and Burgesses of Towns and send them to Westminster B. This was a great favour A. I think so and yet it was by many of the Scots especially by the Ministers and other Presbyterians refused the Ministers had given way to the Levying of Mony for the payment of the English Souldiers but to comply with the Declaration of English Commissioners they absolutely forbad B. Methinks this Contributing to the Pay of their Conquerors was some mark of Servitude where entring into the Union made them Free and gave them equal Priviledge with the English A. The cause why they refused the Union rendered by the Presbyterians themselves was this That it drew with it a subordination of the Church to the Civil State in the things of Christ. B. This is a down-right Declaration to all Kings and Common-wealths in general that a Presbyterian Minister will be a true Subject to none of them in the things of Christ which things what they are they will be Judges themselves what then have we gotten by our Deliverance from the Popes Tyranny if these pretty Men succeed in the place of it that have nothing in them that can be beneficial to the Publique except their silence for their Learning it amounts to no more than an imperfect knowledge of Greek and Latin and acquired readiness in the Scripture Language with a Gesture and Tone suitable thereunto but of Justice and Charity the Manners of Religion they have neither Knowledge nor Practice as is manifest by the Stories I have already told you nor do they distinguish between the Godly and Ungodly but by Conformity of Design in Men of Judgment or by Repetition of their Sermons in the Common sort of People A. But this fullenness of the Scots was to no purpose for they at Westminster Enacted the Union of the two Nations and the Abolition of Monarchy in Scotland and ordained Punishment for those that should transgress the Act. B. What other business did the Rump this year A. They sent St. Johns and Strickland Ambassadors to the Hague to offer League to the United Provinces who had Audience March the third St. Johns in a Speech shewed those States what advantage they might have by this League in their Trade and Navigations by the use of the English Ports and Harbors the Dutch though they shewed no great forwardness in the business yet appointed Commissioners to Treat with them about it but the People were generally against it calling the Ambassadors and their Followers as they were Traytors and Murderers and made such Tumults about their House that their Followers durst not go abroad till the States had quieted them the Rump advertis'd hereof presently recall'd them the Complement which St. Johns gave to the Commissioners at their taking leave is worth your hearing You have said he an Eye upon the Event of the Affairs of Scotland and therefore do refuse the Friendship we have offered now I can assure you many in the Parliament were of Opinion that we should not have sent any Ambassadors to you till we had expected your Ambassadors to us I now perceive our Error and that those Gentlemen were in the right In a short time you shall see that Business ended when it shall perplex you that you have refus'd our Proffer B. S. Johns was not sure that the Scotish business would end as it did for though the Scots were beaten at Dunbar he could not be sure of the Event of their entering of England which happened afterward A. But he guess'd well for within a Month after the Battel at Worcester an Act passed forbidding the importing of Merchandize in other than English Ships The English also molested their Fishing upon our Coast They also many times searched their Ships upon occasion of our War with France and made some of them Prize and then the Dutch sent their Ambassadours hither to desire what they before refus'd but partly also to inform themselves what Naval Forces the English had ready and how the people were contented with the Government B. How sped they A. The Rump shewed now as little desire of Agreement as the Dutch did then standing upon terms never likely to be granted First For the Fishing on the English Coast that they
they from time to time should send him And to make this credible Cromwel himself caused Money to be sent to him The following year 1654. had nothing of War but was spent in Civil Ordinances in appointing of Judges preventing of Plots for Usurpers are jealous and in executing of the Kings Friends and selling their Lands The third of September according to the Instrument the Parliament met in which there was no House of Lords and the House of Commons was made as formerly of Knights and Burgesses but not as formerly two Burgesses of a Burrough and two Knights for a County for Burroughs for the most part had but one Burgess and some Counties six or seven Knights besides there were twenty Members for Scotland and as many for Ireland So that now Cromwell had nothing to do but to shew his Art of Government upon six Coach-Horses newly presented him which being as rebellious as himself threw him out of the Coach-box and had almost kill'd him B. This Parliament which had seen how Cromwel handled the two former the long and the short one had surely learnt the wit to behave themselves better to him than those had done A. Yes especially now that Cromwel in his Speech at their first meeting had expresly forbidden them to meddle with the Government of a single Person and Parliament or with the Militia or with perpetuating of Parliaments or taking away Liberty of Conscience And he told them also that every Member of the House before they sate must take a Recognition of his Power in divers points whereupon of above 400 there appear'd not above 200 at first though afterwards some relenting there sate about 300 again Just at their sitting down he published some Ordinances of his own bearing date before their meeting that they might see he took his own Acts to be as valid as theirs But all this could not make them know themselves for they proceeded to the debate of every Article of the Recognition B. They should have debated that before they had taken it A. But then they had never been suffered to sit Cromwell being informed of their stubborn proceedings and out of hope of any Supply from them dissolv'd them All that passed besides in this year was the Excise of the High-Court of Justice upon some Royalists for Plots In the Year 1655. the English to the number of near 10000 landed in Hispaniola in hope of the plunder of the Gold and Silver whereof they thought there was great abundance in the Town of Santo Domingo but were well beaten by a few Spaniards and with the loss of near 1000 Men went off to Jamaica and possessed it This year also the Royal Party made another Attempt in the West and proclaimed there King Charles the Second but few joining with them and some falling off they were soon suppressed and many of the Principal Persons Executed B. In these many Insurrections the Royalists tho they meant well yet they did but dis-service to the King by their impatience What hope had they to prevail against so great an Army as the Protector had ready What cause was there to despair of seeing the King's business better done by the Dissention and Ambition of the great Commmanders in that Army whereof many had the favour to be esteem'd among them as well as Cromwel himself A. That was somewhat incertain The Protector being frustrated of his hope of Money at Santo Domingo resolv'd to take from the Royalists the 10th part yearly of their Estates And to this end chiefly he divided England into eleven Major-General-Ships with Commission to every Major-General to make a Roll of the Names of all suspected persons of the King's party and to receive the 10th part of their Estates within his Precinct As also to take caution from them not to act against the State and to reveal all Plots that should come to their knowledge and to make them engage the like for their Servants They had Commission also to forbid Horse-races and concourse of people and to receive and account for this Decimation B. By this the Usurper might easily inform himself of the value of all the Estates in England and of the Behaviour and Affection of every person of Quality which has heretofore been taken for very great Tyranny A. The year 1656 was a Parliament-year by the instrument between the beginning of this year and the day of the Parliaments sitting these Major-Generals resided in several Provinces behaving themselves most Tyrannically Amongst other of their Tyrannies was the awing of Elections and making themselves and whom they pleas'd to be return'd Members for the Parliament which was also thought a part of Cromwel's Design in their Constitution for he had need of a giving Parliament having lately upon a Peace made with the French drawn upon himself a War with Spain This year it was that Captain Stainer set upon the Spanish Plate-fleet being 8 in number near Cadiz whereof he sunk two and took two there being in one of them two millions of pieces of 8 which amounts to 400000 l. sterling This year also it was that James Naylor appear'd at Bristol and would be taken for Jesus Christ he wore his Beard forked and his Hair compos'd to the likeness of that in the Volto Santo and being questioned would sometimes answer Thou sayest it He had also his Disciples that would go by his Horse side to the mid-leg in dirt Being sent for by the Parliament he was Sentenced to stand on the Pillory to have his Tongue bored through and to be marked in the Fore-head with the Letter B for Blasphemy and to remain in Bridewell Lambert a great Favourite of the Army endeavour'd to save him partly because he had been his Souldier and partly to carry favour with the Sectaries of the Army for he was now no more in the Protector 's Favour but meditating how he might succeed him in his Power About two years before this there appear'd in Cromwel's time a Prophetess much fam'd for her Dreams and Visions and hearkened to by many whereof some were Eminent Officers but she and some of her Complices being imprison'd we heard no more of her B. I have heard of another one Lilly that Prophesied all the time of the Long-Parliament what did they to him A. His Prophesies were of another kind he was a Writer of Almanacks and a Pretender to a pretended Art of Judicial Astrologie a meer Cozener to get Maintenance from a Multitude of ignorant people and no doubt had been call'd in question if his Prophesies had been any wayes disadvantageous to the Parliament B. I understand not how the Dreams and Prognostications of mad meâ— for such I take to be all those that foretel future Contingences can be of any great disadvantage to the Common-Wealth A. Yes yes know there is nothing that renders Humane Councils difficult but the incertainty of future time nor that so well directs men in their deliberations as the fore-sight of the sequels
not sit in this House till farther Order of the Parliament And thus the Rump recover'd their Authority May the seventh 1659. which they lost in April 1653. B. Seeing there have been so many shiftings of the Supreme Authority I pray you for memories sake repeat them briefly in time and order A. First from 1640 to 1648. when the King was murthered the Soveraignty was disputed between King Charles the First and the Presbyterian Parliament Secondly From 1648. to 1653. The Power was in that part of the Parliament which voted the Tryel of the King and declar'd themselves without King or House of Lords to have the Supreme Authority of England and Ireland For there were in the Long-Parliament two Factions the Presbyterian and Independents The former whereof sought only subjection of the King nor his destruction directly the latter sought his destruction and this part is it which was called the Rump Thirdly From April the twentieth to July the fourth the Supreme Power was in the Hands of a Council of State constituted by Cromwel Fourthly From July the fourth to December the twelfth of the same year it was in the Hands of Men called unto it by Cromwel whom he termed men of Fidelity and Integrity and made them a Parliament which was called in contempt one of the Members Barebone's Parliament Fifthly From December the twelfth 1653 to September the third 1658. it was in the hands of Oliver Cromwel with the Title of Protector Sixthly From September 1658 to April the twenty fifth 1659. Richard Cromwel had it as Successor to his Father Seventhly From April the twenty fifth 1659 to May the seventh of the same year it was no where Eighthly From May the seventh 1659. the Rump which was turn'd out of Door 1653. recovered it again and shall lose it again to the Committee of Safety and again recover it and again lose it to the right Owner B. By whom and by what Art came the Rump to be turn'd out the second time A. One would think them safe enough the Army in Scotland which when it was in London had helped Oliver to pull down the Rump submitted now beg'd pardon and promis'd Obedience The Souldiers in Town had their pay mended and the Commanders every where took the old Engagement whereby they had acknowledged their Authority heretofore they also received their Commissions in the House it self from the Speaker who was Generalissimo Fleetwood was made Lieutenant-General with such and so many limitations as were thought necessary by the Rump that remembred how they had been serv'd by their General Oliver Also Henry Cromwel Lord Lieutenant of Ireland having resign'd his Commission by Command return'd into England But Lambert to whom as was said Oliver had promis'd the succession and as well as the Rump knew the way to the Protectorship by Olivers own foot-steps was resolv'd to proceed in it upon the first opportunity which presented it self presently after Besides some Plots of Royalists whom after the old fashion they again persecuted there was an Insurrection made against them by Presbyterians in Cheshire headed by Sir George Booth one of the secluded Members they were in number about three thousand and their pretence was for a Free-Parliament There was a great talk of another Rising or endeavour to Rise in Devonshire and Cornwal at the same time To suppress Sir George Booth the Rump sent down more then a sufficient Army under Lambert which quickly defeated the Cheshire party and recover'd Chester Leverpool and all the other places they had seized divers of their Commanders in and after the Battel were taken Prisoners whereof Sir George Booth himself was one This exploit done Lambert before his return caressed his Souldiers with an entertainment at his own House in York-shire and got their consent to a Petition to be made to the House that a General might be set up in the Army as being unfit that the Army should be judged by any Power extrinsick to it self B. I do not see that unfitness A. Nor I. But it was as I have heard an Action of Sir Henry Vane's But it so much displeased the Rump that they Voted that the having of more General 's in the Army than were already setled was unnecessary burthensome and dangerous to the Common-Wealth B. This was not Oliver's Method for though this Cheshire Victory had been as glorious as that of Oliver at Dunbar yet it was not the Victory that made Oliver General but the Resignation of Fairfax and the proffer of it to Cromwel by the Parliament A. But Lambert thought so well of himself 〈◊〉 to expect it therefore at his return to London he and other Officers assembling at Wallingford-house drew their Petition into form and called it a Representation wherein the Chief point was to have a General with many other of less Importance that were added and this they represented to the House Octob. the 4th by Major General Desborough And this so far forth awed them as to reach them so much good manners as to promise to take it presently into Debate which they did and Octob. the 12th having recovered their Spirits Voted That the Commissions of Lambert Desborough and others of the Council at Wallingford-house should be void Item That the Army should be governed by a Commission to Fleet-wood Monk Heslerig Walton Morley and Overton till February the 12th following and to make this good against the Force they expected from Lambert they ordered Heslerig and Morley to issue Warrants to such Officers as they could trust to bring their Souldiers next Morning into VVestminster which was done somewhat too late for Lambert had first brought his Souldiers thither and beset the house and turn'd back the Speaker which was then coming to it but Heslerig's Forces marching about St. James's Park wall came into St. Margarets Church-yard and so both Parties looked all day one upon another like Enemies but offered not to fight whereby the Rump was put out of possession of the House and the Officers continued their Meeting as before at Wallingford-house there they chose from among themselves with some few of the City a Committee which they called The Committee of safety whereof the chief were Lambert and Vane who with the advice of a General Council of Officers had Power to call Delinquents to Tryal to suppress Rebellions to treat with Foreign States c. You see now the Rump cut off and the Supreme Power which is charged with Salus Populi transferred to a Council of Officers and yet Lambert hopes for it in the end But one of their Limitations was That they should within six Weeks present to the Army a new Model of the Government if they had done so do you think they would have preferr'd Lambert or any other to the Supreme Authority rather than themselves B. I think not when the Rump had put into Commission among a few others for the Government of the Army that is for the Government of the three Nations General Monk