haue no being nor memory but of dishonour You further say according to your manner without proofe that this Councell vas not Generall for want of the personall presence of two of the Patriarchs wherein you are much mistaken for otherwise the first fower commonly stiled Generall and for such acknowledged by very many Protestants cannot be truly such because the Chiefe Patriarch the Bishop of Rome was not present in any of them but by his Legats Vnlesse you will say that though two may not be absent yet one may especially when that one is the Pope a man whō you I know can very well spare not only out of the Councell but out of the world And yet I wonder that you that haue had the fortune to be the pretended Deane of S. Peters Borough and the pretended Master of S. Peters house should yet be such an enemy to S. Peters chayre But if you desire to know what makes a Councell generall and what are the insufficiencies thereof which you ought to haue expressed and proued before you had shot your hasty bolt of condemnation against this Councell reade Turrecremata and Canus vpon this subiect You at last conclude thus Howsoeuer nihil ibi actum quod quidem constet and so was it neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all Wherein first your proposition is false and hath no authority that I know of but the worst in the world your owne Yet you set it downe in Latin as if they were the words of some author but neither expresse the place nor so much as his name and therfore I take it for yours and reiect it Secondly if it were true that nothing was done there yet your inference from thence is incōsequent to wit that therfore it was neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all concerning the nullities of a Councell or of the generality therof I need say no more than I haue done seeing it rests on you to proue that doing nothing is one And for your affirmation that nothing was done I haue fully disproued it through this whole discourse I will therfore only adde the testimony of Matth. Paris who though he were no friend to this Pope as I haue shewed before yet speaking of this Councell in the place aboue cited saith thus His omnibus congregatis in suo loco praefato iuxta morem Conciliorum Generalium in suis ordinibus singulis collocatis facto prius ab ipso Papa exhortationis sermone recitata sunt in pleno Concilio capitula 60. wherein is a mistake in the figure it should be 70. quae aliis placabilia aliis videbantur onerosa Tandem de negotio Crucifixi subiectione terrae sanctae verbum praedicationis exorsus subiunxit dicens Ad haec ne quid in negotio Iesu Christi de contingentibus omittatatur volumus mandamus c. And so repeats at large the substance of the Decree of the Expedition for the recouery of the Holy land So that it is manifest by this and that which hath beene sayd before that there were many things done in this Councell yea all that are affirmed to bee And it is called a Councell and a generall Councell by Vrspergensis Paris Platina Grantzius Nauclerus Beluacēsis and all that I can finde that haue any way written therof except your vncontrowlable selfe Besides it hath the allowance of the Holy Catholique Church the awfull spouse of Christ more true more wise more vigilant and infinitly more reuerend then all the sects Synagogues of Schismatiques Heretiques therfore their obiectiōs against her whom they ought to belieue and reuerence aboue all things on the earth especially when they are propounded peremptorily as these are are fitter to be reiected than to be answered I conclude with the words of Surius a Nemo sanae mentis ambigere potest hanc quae sequitur Synodum Lateranensem cum primis insignem vere oecumenicam fuisse quippe in qua de negotiis religionis summa Latinae Graecae Ecclesiae concordia tractatum est cuique interfuere Patriarcha Constantinopolitanus Hierosolymitanus Archiepiscopi tum Lani tum Graeci 70. Episcopi 412. Abbates Priores plus 800. simul omnes Praelati 1215. aut eo plures Nec defuere Legati Graeci Romani Imperatoris Regum Hierusalem Galliae Hispaniae Angliae aliorum Quod si verò ea cuiquam propterea minus ponderis habere videatur quod recentior sit ille certè Christum mendacem facere velle videtur qui perennem praesentiam suam promisit Ecclesiae suae Spiritum sanctum suum Spiritum veritatis qui cum illa maneat in aeternum Manet sua semper Catholicae Ecclesiae authoritas quam quisquis contemnere ausus est non ille efficit vt ea minor sit sed se dignum reddit qui eius pondere penitus opprimatur No man well in his wits can doubt that this Councell of Lateran was very famous and truly generall because therein were handled the matters of Religiō with very great agreement of the Greeke and Latine Churches wherin were present the Patriarch of Constantinople and Ierusalem and 70. Archbishops Greeke and Latin Bishops 412. Abbots and Priors aboue 800. all the Prelats together were one thousand two hundred and fifteene or more Neither were there absent the Ambassadours of the Greeke and Roman Emperours of the kings of Ierusalem France Spayne England and others But if this Councell seeme to any to haue lesse weight because it is later hee truly seemes to be willing to make Christ a lyar who hath promised his perpetuall presence to his Church and his Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth which remayneth with her for euer The authority of the Catholique Church doth alwayes abide here which who soeuer presumes to despise he doth not lessen her but renders himselfe worthy to be crusshed to pieces with her weight And now insteed of your prouing the Catholique writers lyars and forgers and the Catholique Church credulous negligent and ignorant which you endeauoured you haue proued your selfe vnwise vnlearned and audacious and I belieue will loose all credit and reputation of integrity or capacity in the iudgement of all prudent men of what religion soeuer they be that shall reade these your vnworthy workes But suppose the thing it selfe were true that you haue laboured for abstracting the authority to the contrary to wit that there had beene no Canons made in this Councell yea suppose there had neuer beene any such thing as this Councell what is it to your purpose What article of our Catholique Faith is therby cancelled how is your inuisible Church of England or your Chappell in France where God hath his Church defended Not at all by ought that you haue sayd No nor by your Mimique acting of the priest in hearing of confessions which wee perhaps shall heare too at the third or fourth hand for as you haue no character
hereunto nor oppose any impediment Now this power of the Pope whatsoeuer it be is farre from that which your confused words insinuate which to your weaker readers I suppose will sound as if the Pope had power to absolue the subiects of any kings from their fidelity and dispose of their kingdomes when to whom and for what cause so euer they pleas'd which is nothing so Yet if this power of the Popes were so vast as you belieue it or would haue others to belieue it why should it trouble you And why should you be more tender of the interest of Princes than they themselues and all their courts about them who either receiued this Canon immediatly from the Councell as I haue sayd and proued or else suffered it to be coseningly thrust vpon them as you haue sayd but not proued And I wonder that you a Protestant should fasten vpon this decree of deposing of Princes by the Pope to make the decrees of this Councell odious and incredible when as it is well knowne that the Popes in sixteene hundred yeeres haue not deposed so many as Protestants in one hundred for almost whersoere the gangrene of that heresy hath spread it selfe they haue either actually deposed and expelled their Princes as in Swede Denmarke Scotland Netherlands Geneua or diuers times attēpted by violence to doe it as in France often in Bohemia in Poland and now it is feared in England And if you say that though these Puritane Protestants haue both taught and done these things yet the true Protestant of the Church of England he neuer taught such doctrine he cānot thinke such a thought without horror surely wee haue nothing but your bare and often broken word for our security For what experience hath the king or his few predecessors of your religion had that in case they should haue depriued you of your desires as they denyed to graunt the desires of the Puritanes if they should haue turned you out of your Bishoppricks and Deaneries taken from you the Church vsurped Liuings set vp a religion that would not haue endured wiuing preachers what experience haue they had that in these or the like cases your Protestants of the Church of England would not attempt their destruction and if they were able lay the axe on their necks as your Supreme Gouuernour of your Church of England Queene Elizabeth and her instruments did on the necke of the renowned Mary Queene of Scotland and Dowager of France Can you then thinke much that the Pope a person of an other quality and more dis-interessed than the subiects of Princes should haue some kinde of power by all conuenient wayes to reduce and correct hereticall Princes Especially seeing the Emperours Kings and Princes gaue their votes vnto this Decree and were for so much as concerned themselues the makers thereof But you will not belieue that this decree was made in the Councell but thinke that you haue proued the contrary My aduice then is that you acquaint the Kings and Princes on this side the seas with this strange cheat that is put vpon them it is like to be a matter of high acceptation to them of great reproach to their vnfaithfull seruants that would not discouer that which you haue done and of great prayse and preferment to your selfe You further obiect against the Act of the expedition for the recouery of the Holy Land which you call the 71. Canon but no body else doth so that I know because it runnes say you in a Popes stile not in the stile of à Councell By which I perceiue that though you are one of the Court yet you are none of the Councell for you are not skild in the stiles of Popes and Councells Otherwise you would haue knowne that it is the manner in those Councells where the Pope himselfe is present to decree things in his name with this addition sacro approbante Concilio as in the Councell of Florence in literis vnionis euen as Acts of Parliament of England are made in the kings name with the aduice or consent of the two houses You say moreouer that Card. Bellarmine and Eudaemon Cidonius doe confesse out of Platina that there was no such decree made Your Eudaemon Cidonius I cannot meet with heere nor is it much materiall for that answer which serues your quotation of Bell will serue him also seeing as you say it is both their confessions out of Platina For the finding of your citatiōs out of Bell you vse vs very ill giuing vs no direction but a booke of perhaps twenty leaues in folio to finde out twēty words which whē wee haue found to recōpence our paynes we finde your mistake and falshood For Bellarm. doth not speake directly of the particular chapter of the expedition whether that were made in the Councell or no but of the buisinesse of the Holy Warre in generall de hoc articulo cū multa disputata fuissent nihil certi definiri potuit and there is a difference sure betwixt nihil certi and nihil omnino nothing certaine and nothing at all as you would haue it And I suppose this nihil certi is meant in regard of the further and more particular managing of the warre from which they were hindred by the present warre in Christēdome and which is no denyall of the Decree of the expedition which consists of a few generall heads concerning the raysing of contributions to this great worke from the clergy wherein the Pope himselfe gaue a great example of punishments on those that hindred it and indulgence to them that aduanced it with the like All which though they were vndoubtedly decreed yet it may be sayd with Bell out of Platina that after much disputation there was nothing certaine defined in regard of the neerer and more particular articles for the managing of the warre being put frō it by the present warre in Christendome Yea it might be sayd nihil certi in regard of this decree it selfe not of the letter and intention of it but of the wars at home yea rather the contrary was certaine namely that it was not executed And if Platina or Bellarmine out of him had intended to exclude this Decree of the expedition which is all that wee affirme to be done in that kinde why did they expresse it with these reseruations of apertè and certi and not say directly and without limitation nihil as you doe which had beene more plaine and agreeable to the grauity of those writers Therfore by these reseruations they must needs intend some thing which as I conceiue is that which I haue expressed Howsoeuer certaine wee are that this Decree was made in the Councell by all that proofe whereby wee haue proued the whole Councell of which this is a part and particularly because you heere make a particular obiectiō against it by Matth. Paris who intimateth so much by repeating a Matth. Paris hist ma. p. 189. the substance of this very Decree in
being brought in but on the by But I cannot omitt a weighty passage that you haue a little before where you say that betweene the seuenth and the eighth generall Councell you trow there cannot come another if it were so great and so generall as this is sayd to be Wherby you intimate that the greatnesse of this Councell was the hinderāce that it could not come betweene the seuenth and the eighth and by consequence that if it had beene a little one it might haue come betweene which is a very new and pretty fancy A little generall Councell it seemes might haue crowded in betweene the seuenth and the eighth as an appendix to the former or otherwise haue found place and vnion with it vnder the same name and number of the seuenth but this being so great and so generall could not possibly finde a roome betwixt them but that it must make two eights as you say rather than an eighth and a ninth which ninth if it had beene so in this case might yet haue beene called the eighth in some other respect as I haue shewed But I had thought that Councells in regard of number being of discrete quantity did not require any place by reason of their greatnesse as if they were in this regard of continued quantity also more than if they had beene little the abstract number of eight I trow can no more come in betweene seuen and eight in a small subiect thā in a great and therfore the greatnesse of this Councell was no more hinderance to its coming in betweene the seuenth and the eighth without chāging the name and order of the number than if it had beene neuer so little You tell vs also that in the last session of the Councell of Florence it is expressely set downe Finis octaui Concilij generalis c. yet the words more expressely than you haue set thē downe are Finis generalis octauae Synodi which though not different in substance yet the difference of the words Concilium and Synodus if you had vnderstood the reason thereof had beene enough to preuent your obiection For it appeares hy an epistle of Bartholomaeus Abramus to the Archbishop of Rauenna set downe by Crab at the beginning of this Councell and by Binius at the end that the Latin Originall of this Councell was lost and that this that is now extant was translated by the sayd Abramus out of the Greeke for which reason he vseth the word Synodus according to the Greeke not Concilium and it is called octaua because it was so in the greeke which hee translated and the Greekes set it downe so because as I sayd before they accounted no Councells generall but where they themselues were present and which they did receiue of which this was indeed the eighth But this account is for very good reasons reiected by a Praefat. huic Synod Surius and b Notis in Concil Florent Binius and by all Catholiques And Crab though hee haue no caueat vppon this place yet that you may see he spake according to the letter of the greeke coppy and not his owne minde he calleth all the Councells betwixt the 2. of Nice and Florence Generall Councells all that the Church accounteth so and particularly of this Councell of Lateran he sayth Instituta generalis Concilij Lateranensis tempore Innocentij Papae tertij In the end of this section you make this notable conclusion So that vnlesse they will make two eight generall Councells this of Lateran could be none which out of your discourse may as iustly be inferred thus so that vnlesse they will make two or nine eight generall Councells that of Constantinople the fourth the fower of Lateran the two of Lions that of Vienne that of Pisa that of Florence or some one of these could be none Could be none is a false consequence could not be the eighth is true nor is that of Florence or Lateran numbred for the eighth by any Catholiques at this day but this is reckoned the twelfth that most commonly the sixteenth But that the number of eight which you so hunt heere may come in because nos numeri sumus he that first made this obiection which I belieue was not you shall by my consent be reckoned Sapientum octauus the eighth wise man which he shall be without a riuall there shall not be two of them especially if he that next aspires to it be a great one for then I trow he cannot interucene in the order of number betweene the eighth and the ninth as you haue taught vs for our learning C. Besides if it were a generall Councell how came it to passe that the Canons of it were neuer generally receiued as amongst vs in the Church and kingdome of England they were not and as without doubt they would haue beene had the Councell in those dayes beene accounted generall and the Decrees of it vnder that stile and title sent abroad into the world But with vs in England euer since that time and contrary to the 46. pretended Canon of it subsidies haue beene payd to the king inconsulto Pontifice and against the 41. Canon with vs Currit praescriptio though oftentimes ex bona fide ortum non habeat and yet againe contrary to the third Canon there with vs Clericorum bona qui de haeresi conuicti sunt they goe not to the vse of the Church but are alwayes brought into the kings Exchequer ANSWER The generality of this Councell you further goe about to disproue because the Canons thereof were not as you say generally receiued and this you proue because they were not receiued in England but that they were not receiued in England you doe not proue but by three instances which you doe not proue and if you had they had proued nothing For it is not properly the generall receiuing that makes a Councell to be generall but the generall calling thereof from all parts of the Christian world and such was this Otherwise no Councell could be stiled generall in the calling of it or while it was sitting or when it was concluded vntill it did appeare that all the world had receiued it which is a condition that neuer happened to any Councell because some or other heretiques against whom all generall Councells haue beene commonly called or perhaps all did refuse to receiue it So that by this your character of a generall Councell you haue plainly casheired all the generall Councells that euer were for euen the first fower which you seeme to magnifie and grant them the title of Generall were the Canons of them generally receiued It is manifest that they were not but were reiected by all those sorts of heretiques who were the occasion of their calling Moreouer your reason to proue that the canons of this Councell of Lateran were not generally receiued to wit because they were not receiued in England if it were true yet it is inconsequent and your deceipt or mistake
lyeth in the indistinction of the word Canons whereof some be of faith some of manners and discipline Now that a Councell be accounted to be generally receiued it is not required that the Canons of discipline and practise be receiued in all kingdomes but it is sufficient that the Canons concerning matters of faith be generally receiued to stile the reception generall and the Councell generall for so much as the generality of reception can contribute to the title of its being generall As for example the kingdome of France doth not receiue the decrees of the Councell of Trent concerning gouernment but of faith it doth as doe all other Catholique Countries for which reason euen this kingdome which denies to receiue the Councell of Trent in matters of gouernment doth notwithstanding acknowledge it generall By which it appeares that you are not so well versed in Generall Councells and their reception as to know distinctly the meaning of the words according to their Catholique vse Now there is no doubt that the kingdome of England did receiue this Councell for the matters of faith otherwise it would haue beene noted hereticall as now it is and for it s not receiuing the Canons of discipline and gouernment you proue not but by your owne bare word which I may most iustly deny yet I haue other proofes against you But first I will take notice of your mistake if not vnfaithfullnesse in your description of the 46. pretended Canon as you call it contrary to which you say subsidies haue beene payd to the king inconsulto Pontifice as if that Canon had sayd that no subsidies at all should be payd to the king but by the aduice of the Pope whereas the Canon speakes only of the subsidies of the Clergy as requiring the Popes aduice As for the practise of England contrary to these three Canons you mention if it be true which I doe not belieue because I haue heard good lawyers in England say the contrary in one which concernes prescription yet it doth not proue that these Canons were not receiued for these crossings of the Canons may happen either through indulgence of the Pope granted to the kings or the kings vsurpation contrary to the Canōs receiued or in your instāce of prescription through the headstrong impiety of the people who will not obserue the good lawes they receiue being contrary to their euill customes If England had obserued all the Canōs they haue heeretofore receiued when they were as wise as learned as pious as iudicious at the least as now they are you and I I belieue should not haue beene at this bay that now we are Now contrary to your proofelesse assertion I proue that the Canons of this Councell were receiued in England as well those of manners as of faith first by the testimony of Linwood and the municipall lawes of the land as they are affirmed by Franciscus à sancta Clara in his article of transubstantiation Secōdly by the Councell of Oxford before cited held by the then Arch-Bishop of Canterbury but seuen yeeres after this of Lateran which was the very first Councell in the world that was held after this where it is sayd a Binij tom 7. part 2. pag. 833. That all things may be concluded wich a good end wee enioyne that the Lateran Councell celebrated vnder Pope Innocent of holy memory in the paying of tithes and in the other chapters be obserued By which it appeares how much you are deceiued in saying that in England the Canons of this Councell were not receiued as you also are in saying C. Lastly I belieue no good story can be shewed to confirme the pretended title of this Councell that the Patriarch of Ierusalem and Constantinople were present at it and 70. Metropolitans besides though that will not make it generall neither for want of the two other Patriarchs of Antioche and Alexandria who are not mentioned to haue beene among them Howsoeuer nihil ibi actum quod quidem constet and so was it neither any Generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all ANSWER What you belieue imports not for I know you belieue many heresies and errors amongst which errors this is one That no good story can be shewed that the Patriarchs of Ierusalem and Constantinople were present at this Councell c. One is sayd to be present either in person or by deputy that those two Patriarchs which you first mention were there in person is affirmed by Platina Paris and Vrspergensis and that the other two were there by their deputies with aboue 70. Metropolitanes besides a very great number of Archbishops Bishops Abbots and Priors some in person and some by Proxy and with these the Legats and deputies of the two Emperours of all or almost all the Kings Princes citties and other places of the Christian world is recorded by Paris and Vrspergensis And I suppose you will not deny any of them to be good historians especially Paris and Platina whom you called in in the beginning of this your worke as witnesses as you thought against the Canons of this Councell a Matth. Paris hist mai p. 188. l. e. Paris and Vrspergēsis speake almost in the same words b Vrspergens Chronic p. 320. thus Anno ab Incarnatione Verbi 1215. celebrataest sancta vniuersalis Synodus Romae in Ecclesia Saluatoris quae Constantiniana vocatur mense Nouembri praesidente Domino Innocentio Papa tertio Pontificatus eius anno 18. in quo fuerunt Episcopi 412. inter quos extiterunt de praecipuis Patriarchis duo videlicet Constant Hierosol Antiochenus autem graui languore detentus venire non potuit sed misit pro se Vicarium Anthedarensem Episcopum Alexandrinus vero sub Saracenorum dominio constitutus fecit quod potuit mittens pro se Diaconum suum Germanum Primates autem Metropolitam 71. caeterùm Abbates Priores vltra octingentos Archiepiscoporum vero Episcoporum Abbatum Priorum Capitulorum absentium Procuratorum non fuit certus numerus comprehensus Legatorum vero Regis Siciliae in Romanorum Imperatorem electi Imperatoris Constantinopolitani Regis Franciae Regis Angliae Regis Vngariae Regis Hierosolymitani Regis Cypri Regis Arragoniae necnon aliorum Principum Magnatum ciuitatum aliorumque locorum ingēs fuit multitudo Heere is your erroneous beliefe plainly and amply confuted I wonder what histories you haue read concerning this Councell that these should escape you especially Paris the Popes deare friend and Platina the Popes owne Secretary I haue therfore reason to belieue that you tooke vp these obiections vpon trust and of men that were not faithfull who haue greatly deceiued you And therfore the title of this Councell which you againe so scornefully and boldly call pretended shall be really accounted Generall by the best and noblest part of the world the Catholique Church when all other pretended Churches Councells and their Canons their Bishops Deanes and Chapters shall