say against Forreigners let them use what Religion their Superiours there injoyn them But against English men who in opposition to the Religion of State distinct from that of Faith which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power such as your Church of Rome Papist is for ought I can yet see If your Father Paul was such I think him either a fool or a Knave for if St. Peters Successor did behave himself well in that Council your Paul was a Knave to traduce him if contrary he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide yet were he a Subject of Rome he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince and yet was religious to dye a steady Cathâ—lick of that Church while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peters Chair Pap. Well Sir say what you will I say I am a true Roman Catholick as to the other World and a true English man as to this Phy. Sir you offered a Distinction lately with a witness viz. Father Paul and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore and as to this I say it 's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man for it looks two waies for if Chequer Papist party per pale half true Papist half true English will not do then it is to be interpreted True English man for life and after true Roman Catholick and so it has something of Policy but more of Romish Guile In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation here during life and after in the other world True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter God a mercy good Distinguisher he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this how he cheats the Pope all his life and cheats the King at his death this Distinction dares not appear at Rome no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh Mr. White or Mr. Serjeant who non-conform from the Church of Rome more then our Independent from the Church of England Pap. But Sir if the Distinguisher as you call him explains himself and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively as to Matters of State and passively as to Matters of Church and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there who are good Subjects nevertheless owe Allegiance and claim protection c. what say you then c Phy. First I say that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperours divided them and causes were all derived from the same Fountain the King but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil thence arose the two Jurisdictions which are naturally one as in our King and by Delegation only made two But I further say if you be in earnest it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons and I mean by earnest real for sad Experience has shew'd that it is not the first time by thousands that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us Yet not in earnest or real as such but in Masquerade and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience I say further It 's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance for such Notional Obedience is indeed none True Obedience ought to be intire and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate for the Lords sake who injoyns to obey not barely for the Commands-sake which injoyns to do And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship But Sir I would willingly be resolv'd whether the Romish Church Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment or by reason of some Command from the Pope next whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters Inasmuch as the former whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture yet he takes it not from our Prince and lodges it in a forraign Prince or Prelate which last makes it Treason Let this be answered and I 'le promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail as at present gives occasion of our Discourse Pap. Pray Sir is there any harm if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Phy. None at all as the former is a Temporal Prince and the latter but a Subject nay more the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at a general Council when it happens but not in England unless by Curtesy And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop who is Apostolick and Patriarch here as Pope Vrban the second allowed and you are a Traytor to the King by and under whose undoubted inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Primate in this Patriarchate Pap. But do you think in your Conscience that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England Phy. Aye I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Dominions Pap. Pray what Grounds have you for it Phy. The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records continued in Succession for many hundred years which are to be seen in the Tower and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke and cited in the Report of a Law Case called Cawdries Case and in Mr. Prins Collections whereby it plainly appears that in all ages wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England and offered to put the same in Execution it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Councils as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown Pap. But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies Phy. Sir as to the matter of Certainty I shall not use the notions so much contended about viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of there being three absolute Certainties by which we come to the knowledg of things 1. A sensible Certainty 2. A Mathematical Certainty 3. An Historical Certainty and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see hear c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain that one and one makes two and three and three makes six The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages and Historians makes me absolutely certain that there were such Kings of England as Kenulphus King Edwin Edw. the
A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY BEING A DIALOGUE Between an English PROTESTANT Physitian AND AN English PAPIST WHEREIN The proper State of the Popish Controversy is discoursed With Reference only to the Government of ENGLAND in Church and State In some Answer to Peter Walsh and pursuant to the Directions of a Person of Honor. Papa stupor Mundi non Deus non Homo sed utrumque Gloss in proem Clem. Moscan de Rom. Pont. l. 1. c. 11. LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun at the West-end of St. Pauls M DC LXXV THE PUBLISHER TO THE READER THIS ensuing Discourse seems to be wrote about the time when by Proclamation Papists were not to reside within ten Miles of London and 't is not yet out of Season nor will be till our Controversies with the Papists be throughly and truly stated after which it cannot be long ere they be ended I see not how English men have to do with the Romish Church or State their Laws Doctrines or Discipline therefore while they have been exercising us with Disputes about those things they had two Ends viz. Either to lead us into some Precipice or to Lap-wing us from the proper tendency of our Enquiries which in truth is our home Concerns and so a Controversy only between English Papists and English Catholicks called Protestants for Distinction with reference to their Prince who governeth by Laws diverse from all the Nations of the World and so is not to be argu'd out of his Right by any Parallel from other Kingdoms But as a Person of Honour hath lately begun so this Author has set forward the proper Contest still meaning between English Papists and English Protestants the latter of whom affirm as follows 1. That the King of England is Emperour and sole Monarch of England and established by a Law diverse from all other Nations 2. That the Church of England has all the Rights of a Patriarchal See from which lies no Appeal to any other Patriarch 3. That all Church Authorities and Jurisdictions with reference to this life and the ends of Government are rightfully derived from the King of England being naturally in him as a mixt Person and Custos utriusque tabulae according to Rom. 13. 4. That he is a Traytor that denyes this or affirms any forreign Prince Prelate or Potentate to have any Jurisdiction in England c. or diminishes the Kings Legal Style 5. There was naturally no difference between Church and State as to Jurisdictions until Christian Monarchs divided Jurisdictions and delegated Civil and Ecclesiastical Persons to take Conusance and judge of Causes separate and those Jurisdictions are called Civil and Ecclesiastical in respect of the Delegates only and not in respect of the Causes whereof they take Conusance and Judge 6. The King hath power naturally within his Dominions by such his delegates respectively to declare what are Articles of Faith according to Scripture and not otherwise and to make and interpret Laws for the Government of Church and State to appoint Forms of Worship and Discipline not against the word of God to add to such Laws Sanctions to punish Offenders against such Laws 7. These Rights and Powers of the King are Inherent in him as Essential Flowers of his Crown as antient as the Crown it self in which his Subjects are so interessed with reference to their Propriety in his personal Government by Original Constitutions as the King cannot by any rightfâ—l Act he can do grant them away to any Forreign Power Person or Potentate or to others but by way of delegation as to the declarative and executive Part. 8. What ever of these Rights and Powers any King of England has at any time allowed to the Pope has been so allowed against the Fundamental Law of the Land and so was utterly void and not obliging to any Successors Kings of England c. 9. That all Papists denying the Jurisdiction of the Pope here both in Civil and Ecclesiastical matters yet holding Communion with the Church of Rome in matters of worship against our established Laws are grievous Offenders 10. That passive Obedience is no Obedience In as much as true Obedience must be spontaneous intire active and with respect to the Law of Nature antecedent to the Kings Command which injoyns intire Obedience to the Kings lawful Command for the Lords sake not barely for the Command sake 11. That the King cannot dispense with or free the Subject from such natural Obedience but only from the penalty added by and annexed to his Command 12. That the King cannot tolerate here the Exercise of the Popish Worship the same being superstitious and idolatrous and against the Established Laws 13. That no English man whatsoever how far so ever they pretend to differ from or disown the Pope can give reasonable security for the Preservation of the Peace of the Church or State by them unless they swear due Allegiance to the King and by Oath declare his Supremacy in the Church and by that Oath renounce all the Popes Authority whatsoever over them and his Power to dispense with that Oath and that they will be obedient to all the Kings Laws 14. That an English man in Priests Orders from the Church of Rome â—xcommunicated or censur'd by thaâ— Church and yet holding Communion with that Church iâ— not to be trusted here although he takes the Oaths above mentioned In as much as he is of no Church being wilfully divided from ours and by Censure divided from the other and so disobedient to all Governors a lawless and perjured Person and so in a present State of Damnation nor is any Romish Priest to be trusted here though he takes the said Oaths in as much as he hath taken a former Oath to the contrary not renounced 15. That since no English understanding Papist doth absent or at any time hath absented from our Communion and Worship out of pure Judgment and Reason But purely by reason of the old inhibition of the Pope in Q. Elizabeth's time for before that they joyn'd with us and were called Church Papists and at the same time they in opposition to our Kings Laws do so firmly yield to that Inhibition and disobey several other Commands of the Pope even in some matters of Faith It 's refer'd to the wisdom of the King with the advice of his said Delegates whether such co 〈…〉 ious Offenders be with any safety to be tolerated or even conâ—iv'd at here 16. That the Church and Court of Rome are so incorporated together that if Communion with that Church be admitted or tolerated here it must necessarily be introductory of that Courts Vsurpation 17. That there are now great differences of opinion among the English Papists themselves with reference to the Pope And if they were all of the mind with the most moderate Pretenders yet what Security can be given that they will alwayes be so or that they shall be succeeded by others of the same Judgment or is it
Confessor William the first Hen. 1. Hen. 3. Edw. 2. Edw. 3. Rich. 2. Hen. 4. Hen. 5. Hen. 6. Edw. 4. Rich. 3. H. 7. H. 8. and also that in their several and respective Raigns the Popes claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here in England was declared null even by those of the Romish Communion and that the King was acknowledged to be the Vicar of the highest King compleat Monarch Head of the whole body of the Realm to govern and rule the Kingdom and People of the Land and above all things the Holy Church and defend the same to give Authority to his Clergy to exercise Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in this Realm according to Canons and Laws made for that purpose and that all Dignitaries of the Church derive their preferments from the King and no other exclusive of the Popes Authority in all Cases whatsoever Pap. How can you call that an absolute Certainty when there is at the same time a Possibility that the same may be false for there is a Possibility that all Historians may be mistaken and all Histories forged Phy. So is there as much Possibility that the Air may become an unproportionate Medium and disturb my Certainty of sight and so the Sense deluded so may I have a Delirium and my Intellectuals at some time disturbed in their Mathematical Activity and so confound all absolute Certainties But until there appear an absolute Certainty of such Interruptions of such means of absolute Certainties the three absolute Certainties remain such for it is not enough to suppose a Possibility to the contrary that makes them less certain but there must appear as high a Certainty to the contrary And while my Understanding is fully satisfied of such Certainties it is impossible to believe a Possibility to the contrary and in case of Historians reporting a matter of Fact diversly the greater and more valuable Testimony is to my understanding absolute the other not as if Mr. Cressey affirms in his Church-History that this Kingdom of England was for One thousand years absolutely subject to the Spiritual Jurisdiction of the Pope and all the Testimonies before mentioned which are Records kept and preserved inviolate and sacred in the Archives of the Kingdom with the care equal with the Evidences for the Crown and Concerns of the King and People say the contrary I take it this last Testimony is of absolute Certainty the other not Pap. But notwithstanding all these Records Popery was in all those Kings Raigns used in England Phy. It was so and Hen. 8. dyed one of your steady roman-Roman-Church Catholicks but whatsoever powers the Pope had in any or all those Kings Raigns in England was meerly by the Concession of such Kings and not otherwise and at their will and pleasure only and which they might at any time resume at the like pleasure which other Kings have done since And I must tell you that although such Concessions have been yet they ought not to have been for the King cannot grant away any Inherent Flower of the Crown such as Jurisdiction is no more then he can grant away the Crown it self And whereas the timerous King John the very black Patch of the English Race laid down his Crown at the Infidel Embassadors feet and afterwards allowed it Tributary to your Italian Usurper It was more then he by the Law of this Realm could do and his Acts therein were wholly void but the King may appoint or alter a Discipline and Worship not contrary to Gods Holy Will and Appointment Pap. Well but what if the King should appoint a Liturgie and Form of Worship the same with that of the Catholick Countries Phy. If he should what then would that satisfie the true Catholicks of the Church of Rome and make them true English men Pap. I believe it might for while you have so good Authority against the Popes Jurisdiction here I cannot see at present what more they can have Phy. I vow I see such kind of arguings as these will soon bring these Controversies into a narrow Room and being pressed forward and home to an End Pap. Hold there for though I cannot at present answer your studied Arguments yet I may upon Deliberation however there are them who are able to do it whom I shall consult and then talk with you further Phy. There are them Very well who are them with a Mischief What blind leads the blind Credulity and Ignorance are the Pillars of your Church But come Sir let me give you some Advice The Service of God ought to be a reasonable Service that is Logical according to the word in the Original reasoning or your reason ought to be primarily concerned therein You are a person endued with rational Faculties and some stock of Improvements You are thereby distinguished from Brutâ— you are not to act in things of Religion out of Custom Precept or Example meerly but to be a wise Berean more noble than those of Thessalonica to search the Scriptures and try whether what is taught you be according thereto do not pin your Faith on other mens sleevs as the saying is admire not persons ignorantly nor things for persons sakes It was not a justifiable saying of him who had rather be in an Error with Plato then in the truth with any other There was one Farrel an active Presbyterian in Geneva after whom the People flocked In so much as one became so bold as to say he gave greater honour to Farrel then to Paul and another said of Calvin that were Paul and Calvin to preach together he would leave Paul to hear Calvin So that many men profess this or that Sect of Religion not so much for Religion sake as for the sake of the Sect Leaders Imitate St. Austin who having a long time followed St. Cyprian an Orthodox Father of the Church in the interpretation of a place of Scripture afterwards met with Ticonius an Heretick interpreting that place which he closed with conceiving it best Pap. Truly Sir I deny not but your Advice is wholesom and perhaps seasonable I shall think of it But Sir what if the Roman Catholicks should declare that they believed and owned the Kings Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction as well as Temporal in all his Dominions and disowned the Popes right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever here would not that be Security sufficient for the publick Peace and prevent severe Laws against us Phy. I think in such case our King might well say of such Papists as the Duke of Saxony said of the Lutherans viz. what they believe now I know but what they will believe next year I know not And you may deny the Popes Jurisdiction here as the Papists in France did the Popes power of Princes yet hold it so at Rome And you may own Allegiance and Supremacy to be in the King as Vauinus wrote for Providence yet denyed a deity But I do think that an Oath to that purpose well Pen'd and well taken would conduce somewhat to the
Pap. I apprehend what you mean by kernel and shell you may continue the Metaphor and tell me wherein our King contributes to the preservation of the Old kernel more then his Holyness Phy. Why then I 'le tell you this kernel and shell first grew in Palestine which was a land as fruitful as that mentioned Deut. 8. and more for fruit-trees especially Figs there never leave bearing the old Figs continuing till the new come which resolvs 14 Mark 13. But for shell fruit especially such as we talk of Dr. Heylin says little is there but what comes from Damascus And as to this shell fruit of ours some Indignities being offered thereto by untoward Neighbours viz the Essens Saducees Scribes Pharisees Herodians and Galileans It was thought fit to be transplanted And one St. Joseph an honourable Counsellor planted it in England where it continued and did thrive exceedingly the Kernel flourishing keeping its native Vigour Sap and Colour the Shell fine thin well favoured and as hard one would think as a Rock and so it continued near five hundred years afterwards by the Luxuriancy of the Soil and the over officious and too critical Appointments and Trials of some Supervisors and too lazy and superficial of others on this well coloured thin and hard shell a kind of false Rind grew and covered it quite over till you could not see the true shell this Rind was maintained as engendred by something forreign nothing from the Kernel It happened that a great Wind arose once upon a time about the time of Lent I think it was a westerly Wind and as easterly Winds bring in Autumn Ascarides to destroy Orchards and Garden Fruits so in Lent this westerly Wind brought an infinite number of Vermin of equivocal generation to be sure into our Land they were of several shapes and colours all of them but of two legs divellish beaks like birds of prey some were red some russet some black and some of all colours and Sir this sort of verminous Breedlings after that the gross putrid Air that was their Parent and Vehicle hither became somewhat rarified and so not so full of luscious support got into this scurvy Rind and there digg'd their Mansions and for many years lived on the adventitious juice which supplyed the Rind which strange Animals swarming to too great a number could not be preserved with fatness in the Rind but lay gnawing on the shell made holes therein and as I 'me credibly informed had almost endangered the kernel whereupon the Matter was inquired into and found out by skilful Workmen who quite pared off the Rind and so destroyed the Nests of those Caterpillars and have indeavoured to keep the shell well favoured thin and hard as it was at first yet it's strange though one sort of Vermin be scraped off another kind of Vermin like Mites will fall on if not warily looked after but for the whole Matter we keep it now pretty well only now and then washing it over with a little water and Salt Pap. Well Sir if you mean by the Kernel the Christian Religion by the Shell Discipline on Worship and by the Rind some Super additions thereupon in which or upon which the Romish Priests and Regulars lived and by the paring of the Rind the Reformation and by the Mites your own Sectaries and by Water and Salt paenal laws as I think you do What if all this be true which I deny yet how come your Kings to have any thing to do in Reformation of the Church Phy. Our Kings have power to reform the Church of England c. by a Power inherent in them as Emperors within their Dominions Pap. How Emperors sure you 'l not make that out When were the Kings of England stiled Emperors Phy. Whether any of our Kings were actually stil'd Emperors is not the point But they were so ever since they wore an Imperial Crown and that is ever since there was first a King of England Pap. But how does that make him Governour of the Church Phy. That makes him not Governour of the Church but God made him such and That is Evidence that God made him such the Crown of England never being rightfully dependent as to any Jurisdiction on any forreign Emperour Prince Potentate or Patriarch and so is his Crown Imperial and his power absolute according to the most ancient Constitution and Laws of this Realm in all matters Civil and Ecclesiastical Our King is by our fundamental Laws a person sacred and mixed with the Priesthood and at his Coronation by a solemn Consecration and Unction he becomes a sacred and Ecclesiastical Person for as he hath put upon him the regal Crown as Embleme of his Kingship and Power in Temporals so hath he a Sacerdotal Vestment commonly called Dalmatick as a Levitical Ephod to signifie his Power in Spirituals and accordingly our Kings have always on occasion called a National Synod called here a Convocation consisting of the Clergy-Lords and Commons appoints a Primate to preside there and they consult together and prepare Canons for ordering such Church matters as the King appoints and no more which the King afterward Enacts and makes to be Laws by his Royal Assent What can your Pope say more for himself Pap. He can say much more for himself Phy. I believe he can say enough but he cannot prove half he sayes Pap. He can prove that his way of Worship has been used longer then yours Phy. More shame that it has been suffered so long but let it be what it will in other Countries still I say it ought not to be so here since the Laws of the Land command the contrary the Pope having no Right to any Jurisdiction here as before is said And I must tell you and can make it good That the King of England hath been styled Vicar of the highest God long before the Pope became a Prince or Pope Pap. These Methinks are odd things and contrary to the Law of God Phy. Pray Sir let me ask you a few Questions viz. first whether Peter had any thing to do here in England when Joseph of Arimathea was here Or when Paul was here Which was before he was at Rome and Joseph came hither with his twelve holy Complices after Stephens death The first Christian Church was built by Joseph at Glassenbury here was three Arch-bishops and twenty eight Bishops before Austin the Monk came hither who refused to keep Easter as it was kept at Rome to baptize by their Ceremonies or to joyn in preaching with the Anglo-Saxons I say pray in all this time which was some Hundreds of years next after our Saviour what Jurisdiction did St. Peter or his Romish Successors claim in England Pray where was Pope or Supremacy either before they were given to Boniface the third anno 606 by Phocas that Adulterous Assassine who slew his Master Mauritius the Emperor before that Pope was usual to other Bishops then Volumus and Jubemus came in the
room of I beseech ye Brethren Rom. 13. and which is remarkable Mahomet the Grand Impostor broke then out also when the Pope became a Temporal Prince by the Gift to him of the Kingdom of the Lombards by Pippin Son of Charles Martel Another Question is Sir whether our King is not as good a Successor to St. Joseph as a Lay Pope is to St. Peter Pope Constantine the fourth being opposed by the Council of Lateran as being a Lay person justified himself and shewed for President Sergius Bishop of Ravenna and Stephen Bishop of Naples and when the Pope said first Mass in the City of Constance King Sigismund in Deacons habit read the Gospel out of St. Luke 2. there went out a Decree from Caesar Augustus c. Pap. Well Sir let 's not talk too much of these matters for I may be drawn into a snare in seeming to lessen the Kings Authority from whom I expect protection and desire the Exercise of my Religion after my own Judgment Phy. Your own Judgment I like the words well and wish you guided by your own Judgment rightly improved by due Inquiries into things and not by the Judgment of others without a rational satisfaction why or wherefore but only you must do because you are bid to do so and until that you may expect and desire long enough before it be granted Pap. Why should you be so severe against us who promise all due Obedience to the King and not to disturb the peace of the Nation Phy. You may promise due Obedience but then you tell not what that due Obedience is Also men of your perswasion have alwaies promised fair but no Age can testifie their suitable performances if fit occasion be offered to the contrary Pap. Why then will you condemn all for some Phy. How shall we distinguish ye Will ye Rendevouz on black Heath and divide into parties Pap. I gave you a Distinction before of the Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists the latter only are proper to be called Papists the former true Roman Catholicks Phy. Why Then I am no Protestant but a true English Catholick Pap. Yes though you be not a Lutheran Protestant nor a Calvinian Protestant yet you protest against the Church of Rome Phy. So though you be not a Jesuit Papist a de fide Papist yet you are a Papist owning the Popes Authority against the Church of England Pap. Well then you acknowledge us not to be so dangerous as some other Papists are Phy. Truth I cannot acknowledg ye so for for ought I know or perhaps your selves you may be as ill as the worst And whilst you make a Party disclaimer of the Popes Authority here that may be but a pretence and you may have the Popes Authority for so doing It 's not a new thing that Dispensations have been given by the Pope and frequently they are not only to Church with us at large but to communicate with us also and some have had Indulgences to worship Idols in proper Countries And this is your holy Stratagem like that of Cromwell who banished some hence to betray the King beyond Sea And it is to be remembred That Watson of whom your Peter Walsh speaks so well and called himself Puritan Papist and was of the same opinion with him in all your Distinctions and professions of Allegiance and Obedience to our King proved in conclusion a most notorious open Traytor Pap. I cannot tell but I protest if the Pope should invade ENGLAND to disturb the Peace thereof I would draw my sword as soon against him as I did against Cromwell Phy. So I have heard others greater then you to have said but pray deal fairly and candidly with me what is it that you would have Pap. That 's a Strange Question at this time of day Phy. It 's not strange while I judge by your uncertain Discourses you know not well what to have Pap. Why I would have Liberty to exercise Religion according to the Church of Rome Phy. That 's diverse from what you ask'd before for the Religion of the Church of Rome is that the Pope has power over our King and how consists that with your Protestation to fight against him if he Exercises that power equally as against Cromwell this is one of your Romish Equivocations and it may be you did not draw your Sword against Cromwell or that you intend the Popes personal Invasion of ENGLAND which is likely for the Pope by his Authority given to his Emissaries invades ENGLAND and disturbs its peace every day Pap. I intend it as fully as can be intended of any sort of Invasion or disturbance of peace by himself or others for it suffices me to Exercise the Roman Catholick Religion after the manner used by the true-English-Roman-Catholicks Phy. Would you Exercise a Religion after such a manner as is not used or exercised in any one Country whatsoever Pray Sir give me leave to ask you another Strange Question as you call it viz. Do you think it necessary to be of the Communion of some Church or no Pap. 'T is strange indeed Yes I do think it absolutely necessary to be of the Communion of the Church of ROME and I am so Phy. Very well Why are you so Pap. Because my Superior is so Phy. Who is your Superior Pap. Your pardon for that Sir Phy. Is he an ENGLISH Roman-Catholick Priest now residing in ENGLAND Pap. He is and what then I hope you intend not to inveigle me into a Discovery of him to his harm Phy. No indeed I wish them all well well informed or well out of harms way but my aim was by that to tell you what I think viz. That that very Superior of yours is not now nor has he been for many years last past himself a Member of that Church or of that Communion or if he be he 's but a lame Member Pap. Sir you think strangely and I must tell you that he is Professor of Divinity and a Priest of the Order of St. Francis Phy. Let him be what he will or can I say still as I did before and will Justifie it that 's more but Wee 'l let that alone till anon and I 'le be hold to ask you another question which may not seem so Strange as the former and that is how near does your Church of Rome agree with our Church of England in the business of Excommunications Pap. What your Church of England intends by Excommunication you know best but our Church of Rome holds That when a Man is Excommunicated by our Church he is quite cut off from the Church and its Communion and delivered over to Satan until penance be done and absolution given to him and for it's power I 'le tell you the Abby of Fusuiack was infested with Flies the Abbot Clareval said Excommunico eas and they were all dead immediately A white loaf by Excommunication turns as black as a Coal and being absolv'd turns
just as it was one Robert Brook being Excommunicated the Dogs would not take bones from him Phy. Why then you have proved your Professor of Divinity your Franciscan Priest to be not onely in a woful condition but not of the Church of Rome nor of its Communion For he is and has been a long time Excommunicated by the Pope for those very distinctions that you and others dote upon and have mention'd in this our discourse Pap. Sure it can't be so Phy. Do you know Obedient Peter Walsh Pap. I have good reason to know him and love him and honour him for he is a Learned Pious and Peaceable minded man Phy. Why he it was that tell'd me of the Excommunication I mention Pap. I can't believe it Phy. I verily believe he tell'd it you too Pap. On my Credit he tell'd it not to me Phy. Why he tell'd it to all the English and Irish Roman Catholicks and writ a Letter to them all and printed it and saies so in that Letter page 5. 47. 48. So then he is disabled to officiate as a Priest and while he remains so disabled and others of the same opinion as Mr. Walsh sayes there are five hundred in England What Confessors have you and who can make new ones but the Pope and will he make any more of the same Opinion or such as are not of his Faith and what if Priests be changed or change their opinions as to our State what security can be given against it As for ye poor Blinds ye are already in the Snare and how to get out how know ye for ye must not dispute nor can ye for want of knowledge which is necessarily kept from yee Nor if ye could must ye dispute with your Superiors but ye must believe as the Church believes Yet the reason of such belief ye must not inquire into for the Pope is to Explicate all Matters and all other Explications are declared void and Null by Pope Pius the Fourth in a Bull for that purpose which Bull all Priests are sworn to obey however your dispensing Priests may wheadle with ye And in truth it comes to this that either such a True Roman Catholick as your Confessor pretends to be must commit Treason or renounce some Articles of Faith holden by that Church which he advises and conjures ye to believe Pap. Then I hope such a man deserves protection and favour here who for his Allegiance to the King runs such a bazard Phy. I can't see what protection or favour he deserves for such Allegiance or hazard nor can I tell how far such a one is to be trusted who is a Heretick at Rome and called True Roman-Catholick in England and cannot agree with the King if the King should agree with him Let the King do as he pleases Why is it to be thought that he should yield due Obedience to our King to save his Neck who refuses due Obedience to his supream head of his Church to save his Soul Pap. Judge not too rashly for the Franciscan you speak of is accounted a Man Phy. Let him be accounted what he will and make what profession of Allegiance and Obedience he pleases this I know That the Pharisees Christs utter Enemies called themselves so as holy Seperalists as others have called themselves the Family of Love the Saints c. The Saduces who denyed the grand Article of Faith the Resurrection so called as the righteous The learned Gnosticks and the Robbers Zealots and Peter Walsh sayes there are Indifferents Zealots Bigots and Hypocrites among them so call these Interpendents between Pope and King what you please I know what to call them as before and while I think it not safe for them to be in either place ROME or ENGLAND c. I advise them to hasten to a Locus tertius and be sure they dye in belief of Purgatory Pap. It 's time for us to have done I see you are an angry Protestant Phy. I 'me glad you can see me something and of some Church I cannot see what or of what Church you are or would be Pap. But Sir Do not you think we have travailed ten miles from London Phy. Truly yes I take it you have travail'd full ten miles Pap. Then at yonder Sign I 'le stay and consider a while Phy. Sir if you stay an hour there I 'le come and drink a glass of Wine with you Pap. Content Sir Phy. Farewell THE Second PART PHY. How now Sir what mounted already I had hopes to have drank a Bottel of Wine with you and made haste accordingly Pap. Sir I have staied a full hour here my Landlord affirms so and that is as much as you desired Phy. Sir I perceive you are a Person that stints your self in the Duties of Religion and Conversation Pap. As long Sir as I fulfil all Commands I fulfil the Law Phy. You may be said to fulfil the Law and yet at the same time not to be obedient to that Law For if a man fulfils the Law to save the penalty which the Civil Sanction annexes that 's done by force when as all Obedience is spontaneous and ought to be made from the reason of the thing in Morals for the reason of the Command in Indifferents yet not for the Command sake but by Law natural which injoyns such Commands to be obeyed as before I said Pap. Sir you are a strange man thus to arraign me in my Morals Phy. I find good cause so to do for what ever Huffs and Bragadocho's some of your Clergy make about Demonstration I find as they understand not so with you of the Laity you take all things on trust Pap. What reason have you to say so you know not on what Grounds we go Phy. Yes since I 've met with you I have well learnt how to judge of you and that you take things on trust as for Example 1. You took it on trust that Ogilbies Wheel had declared it twelve Miles to Rumford 2. You took it on trust from me of a different Religion that you had travail'd ten miles 3. You took it on trust from your Landlord that you had stayed a full hour for me 4. You took it on trust that your great Franciscan was of the Communion of the Church of Rome In all which you may be mistaken and in the last doubtless are for the reasons before Pap. But pray whither travail you now Faith I have been considering of somewhat you said before and now you hint at again i. e. If any Priest be excommunicated how can he be a true Roman Catholick therefore for ought I know I am none neither and so not within the Proclamation and so may return back again to London however I 'le go and inform my self better of these things you have mentioned I do not doubt but at another time to answer them all fully if I cannot I know who can Phy. You had need be better informed indeed I wish you good Information
better then your excommunicated Fryar can give Pap. I 'le tell you since you and I parted I was thinking of you and of your profession and wondred that you stuck so long on Religion since you are counted Atheists Phy. Perhaps some may count us so for looking into natural Causes and appointing natural Remedies perhaps the Vulgar may count us so because we seldom go to Church the reason of which is manifest from the urgency of our Concerns being on life and death and not to be neglected Pap. Yes truly I have heard the Urgencies are often so great and so many that a man is appointed to come frequently into the Church to call out the Doctor without cause and so he cheats God himself and the whole Congregation Phy. What some men may do I know not this I am sure the worst of us all cheats not so much as the best of your perswasion Pap. I believe I know the reason why some Physitians are so angry with our Religion Phy. I beseech you why are Physitians angry with your Religion more then others while even now they had none Pap. Let their Religion be what it will they will pretend any Religion rather then ours for Pope Greg. 15. anno 1622. prohibited Catholicks to use heretical Physitians Phy. If you have heard of a Book called Religio Medici you will there find good Religion and the Exterior part thereof such as may deserve kindness from a Puritan Papist yet containing himself within the just bounds of an English Protestant Pap. It is that very Book came even now into my mind and I remember he sayes there that he thanked God he did not live in the time of Christ and his Apostles And a witty Animadverter a Roman Catholick I will warrant him said it might be because his practice would have been spoyl'd for Christ and his Apostles cured gratis and On my Conscience that makes your Profession so angry with our Religion Phy. Pray are Papists so charitable as to cure for nothing I 'me sure I know some Physitians of that perswasion who take as much money as they can get Pap. All Catholicks are not of one mind but I remember you talk'd much of your Records and I 'me sure we have better Records of more good done by the Physick of the Church then by the Physicks of your Colledge and Universities Phy. The Physick of the Church I thought England had now been Master of all the Methods and Systems of Physick extant yet among them I have not met with the Physick of the Church Pap. It is a curing after the Hermitical way Phy. Hermetical I have read Hermes Trismegistus that excellent Philosopher and I think am acquainted with all Medicines and Recipe's Hermetical Empirical and Chymical Pap. Sir you mistake me I confess that the Science of Physick in all Rules of Art is more refined in England then was ever before but I say not Hermetical but Hermitical Phy. Pray unfold your self Pap. Why there 's it now The unfolding of this Notion Hermitical will make you understand the Physick of the Church Phy. Oh! I think I take it now You mean some found out in the Cloysters which you call Church Physick Pap. I do so and the use of the Physick would break Doctors Apothecaries and Chirurgeons Phy. Pray tell 's some of it Pap. Some of it why I could entertain you from hence to London with it Phy. Come faith we have been serious long enough now make me merry Pap. Hold ye there I 'me better appointed then to sport with things sacred yet what I shall tell you may occasion a religious mirth were you rightly disposed Phy. Sir I can demean my self answerable to any Entertainment and shall frame my self to your Conversation pray begin Pap. Sir I can tell you how to cure Child-bed Griefs by praying to St. Marquerite how St. Marus Bishop of Tryers cures Palseys and Convulsions St. Nicholas cures dangers at Sea St. Venisa Green-sicknesses and Womens Diseases St. Lucy Unchastity and which is remarkable St. Cosma and St. Damian both Physitians cure all Diseases gratis and purely upon humble request And St. Appollonia being pray'd unto cures the Tooth-ach which never a Doctor can do and I doubt not but when St. Austin said he was cured of the Tooth-ach by prayers it was by praying to this Saint And the Arm of St. David cures the Plague without the help of Doctor Hodge's book And if I should tell you all I could especially of the three Kings of Collen viz. St. Jasper St. Melchior and St. Balthasar you would wonder Phy. I might wonder indeed and so I did when I read the late Book called Reflections on the Romish Devotions and I wondred again and again that rational men in any Age much less in this Age and in this Climate where Learning and Knowledge is so much refined improved and sublimed should so night-mare their Vitalities with a rudis indigestaque moles of ridiculous Trash and suffer themselves to be blind-folded waving their proper Conduct of Reason and following they know not whom they know not how they know not whither especially in their Devotions And therefore Sir you may forbear your Hermitical Dispensatory for I am weary of that and of my Journey too therefore let 's hasten Pap. Sir I could in a short Discourse sufficiently make good the Devotions of our Church to the Saints and enough to convince any rational man Phy. Truly Sir I must confess you may tell a great many pretty Tales that might cozen my thoughts of the badness of the wayes and the uneasiness of my horse may be so far acceptable but my Judgment will be no way moved to think them so much as probably true And Sir the Saints to whom those pretended Miracles are by your Church ascribed are all of antient time and I hear not of any modern Saints that are endowed with such powers So that it should seem your Church has been of late very barren of Saints or else your Saints have been very lazy and I wonder that the Reliques of no late Pope Saints are found Pap. As to that Sir I must confess that these Saints I have mentioned lived and were famous under the Government of the Catholick Bishop of Old Rome and since that the Christian Faith is setled there is no need of extraordinary ways Phy. But you know many of the other were not for great ends but tryals of skill and now is more need to believe then ever But why Old Rome I hope you do not mean Pagan Rome Pap. No I mean old Christian Rome when Christianity was first planted there Phy. You do well to appoint them to Ages so long ago that the truth cannot be inquired into and I will tell you my Conceit how these Fables first came up The Heathens being guilty of Idolatry worshipping stocks stones Images imaginary Deities and Devils the ignorant Christians in those dark times to draw them into the Christian Religion by
within you viz. your own reason so informed which was placed there as was said to distinguish you from a Brute that can go stand do c. as he is taught or at least by a Church in whose Conduct you may have rational satisfaction in all the points of its profession So then if your Pope your Councils your Church do err as your true English Roman-Catholicks say they do in Doctrinals in matters of Faith How can you be assur'd that your Runigate Priests do not err in the matters they inculcate into your easy heads and in that unintelligible Faith which is against sence and reason and their own Judgments And how can you then be assured they err not in worship which is of less weight Pap. Constant Usage and Approbation are sufficient grounds for me in that However you may see that we Roman Catholicks of this perswasion submit our selves to the Laws of the Land are willing to give security for not disturbing the peâ—ce and of our Allegiance to the King and so in Justice are intitled to the Kings protection and deserve not to be lyable to the penal Laws intended purely against the Papists of the Court of Rome Phy. Very well we are now come to the end of the Journey whence we began and so in our Discourse viz. to the Distinction of Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists and I am still of opinion that neither ought to be suffered here For were it possible to believe that all the English Romish Catholicks were such Mungrel Papists as you pretend to be that is to obey the Pope in part and our King in part as has been said as is plain they are not as appears by the opposition of most of them to the formulary or remonstrance mentioned by Peter Walsh yet even they are not to be trusted here with safety to the King For what security can there be given that the Roman Catholick who is false to the Pope should be faithful to the King that one can serve two Masters pretending to Equality with equal faithfulness that one who is excommunicated by his own Church should keep faith with another Church that one who is notoriously perjured should be believed That one who is of the Church of Rome should be bound by that Oath which his Church condemns and frequently dispenses with and he owns that one who is so easie as to believe the ridiculous Fables of Old Rome may not as easily be drawn over to the rebellious faults of the New Rome and Peter Walsh's assurance for his party is just as valuable as his partner Cressy's for the Jesuits and what Credit can be given to one who brake his Oath to this Church and then did as much to the other and is now possessed with or by the Devil being delivered over to Satan Besides 't is obvious how dangerous it is to indulge that sort of people by the stir they have lately made in publick declaimings against the Religion of this Kingdom and the disturbance of this Churches peace which is an ill requital for the Kings gracious Clemency and has awakened those laws which otherwise might have slept still And how can that Papist be believed to be true and faithful to that King whom he takes to be an Heretick and will infallibly be damned How can a Popish Fanatick who believes all the Enthusiasmes allowed in the Romish Church viz. the Revelations of Mother Juliana the Preface to Sancta Sophia who thirsts after the lights which do expell all Images of Creatures and calm all manner of passions to the end that the Soul being in vacuity may be more capable of entertaining God in the pure fund of the Spirit who is in possession of the Deiform fund of the Soul which is the simple Essence of the Soul stamped with Divine Impress from whence ariseth a superessential life being a way of knowing without thoughts of seeing in darkness of understanding without reasonâ— of unknowing God by perceiving of being melted and brought to nothing first and then being lost and swallowed up in God by which means all created being is put off and that which is only Divine put on being changed into God as Iron heated into the nature of fire which is attained to by seeking God in the Obscurity of Faith with a more profound introversion of the Spirit which is the State of Nothingness or of Totality or the unica of Nothing with Nothing by which the Soul comes to a feeling of her not being and by consequence of the not being of Creatures I say how can such a one who must first be mad before he can know he is in his wits expect any better Entertainment in England then the three late York-shire Quakers had at Rome viz. as being dismissed as Mad-men They being in France shaved to cure that Frenzy which oft by shaving is occasioned and such as this are some of your Romish Church Catholicks nay even the Superiors as they have testified to the World in Print and why may not such a Romish Church Quaker who attains knowledge after a Mystical way by the Impulses of the Spirit only extravagate soon into civil affairs as well as Father White who never read Mathematicks as he sayes and without the Help of Humane Learning attain to the perfect knowledge of the Quadrature of the Circle And how are these Formulary men to be believed while they can to the Pope excuse their remonstrance of Allegiance to their King by saying that they only acknowledge but do not swear it that they do not Condemn the opinion contrary to the Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with the Oath or any part of it Let any one Judge now comparing their remonstrance to the King and their Declaration to the Pope what manner of Allegiance and Obedience the King may expect from them especially it being declared by the Council of Toledo in the time of Innocent the sixth That laws as to Ecclesiastical persons bind not ad culpam but ad poenam And by Aquinas Monks are only bound to profess not to keep the rules of St. Benedict just so are our True English Roman Catholicks bound to profess and owe as you call it Allegiance but how or when to keep or pay it who can he assured thereof And their stories tell us That the Devil appeared to Fryar Ruffin in form of Christ And what security is there by that Oath taken by them while the same persons taking that Oath can confidently assure the Pope That they do not condemn the opinion contrary to that Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with that Oath or any part of it which is as much as to say and believe that the Pope can dispense therewith which they may more easily believe then that the Pope can dispense with St. Pauls Epistles with the New Testament with the Old and New Testament with the whole law of God and to compleat the Popes