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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77724	A publick disputation sundry dayes at Killingworth in Warwick-shire, betwixt John Bryan, doctor in divinity (minister at Coventry) and John Onley, pastor of a church at Lawford. Upon this question, whether the parishes of this nation generally be true churches. Wherin are nine arguments alleged in proof of the affirmative of the question, with the answer of I. O. thereunto, together with Doctor B. Reply. Also an addition of ten arguments more in further proof of the question, with an answer adjoyned in disproof thereof. Published by both their consents, as appears by the ensuing epistles.	Bryan, John, d. 1676.; Onley, John.	1655 (1655)	Wing B5245; Thomason E823_9; ESTC R207672	61,370	75

way finally the Apostle Peter commands us all to be ready alwaies to give an answer to every Man that asketh us a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear if Gods honour and the good of those who ask require it both which I apprehended were concerned in my yielding to your motion and therefore embraced it le●ving the issue to God and for the same reason have I yielded to your secod motion made in the close of the third or fourth days disputation viz. that your Arguments and Answers and Replies and Rejoynders upon the first question might be put in Print and to your Proviso that at present I should make no Reply unto your answer to the Ten last Arguments as you would no Rejoynder to my Reply upon your Answers to the Nine first and if you have a mind you may rejoin your engagement to the contrary I free you from yea and give you liberty which you have already taken all along without check to oppose what you please and to take in also the help of Master Morley and those other seven who assisted you in disputation that the utmost you and they can object further against our Parish Churches may come under our view onely for your Readers sake I could wish you would forbear instead of arguing to make any more excursions by tedious impertinent Declamations against our Ministers and Members wherein all your Answers for the most part spend themselves which yet the Men of your own way will admire seriously but all others of any competent understanding ironically using Jobs words to Bildad Chap. 26. 3. How hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is suffer me to speak my thoughts and hopes when all is that can be said by their self or any other to overthrow the Parochial Assemblies of this Nation they will stand like Mount Sion which though it may be moved in its place cannot be removed out of its place and the Presbyterian Government which we are endeavouring to settle in our Congregations will prove like the Palm tree quae non cedit ponderi sed surgit adversum pondus Nor do I doub but when Christ our King hath turned his hand upon us and purely purg'd away our dross and taken away all our tin he will set up his throne and keep a standing Majesty in the midst of these golden Candle-sticks then they that are our enemies shall see and shame shall cover them which said unto us where is the Lord your God mean time we will bear the indignation of the Lord because we have sinned against him untill he plead our cause and execute judgement for us yea though he suffer you to kill us after three days and a half we shall revive and stand upon our feet and many out of all languages separate Societies shall relinquish their dividing principles and practices and take hold of the skirt of a Gospel Presbyterian saying we will go with you for we have heard that God is with you this is the hope and shall be the Prayer of Your loving friend and servant in the Lord JOHN BRYAN That the National Congregations of England are the true Churches of Christ saith Dr. John Bryan Minister in Coventry and these are his Arguments to prove it as followeth Denyed by Mr. JOHN ONLY with the grounds of his dissent in Answers to his Arguments WHether the Parishes of this Nation generally be true Quest Churches Those Societies which the true Churches of Christ Argument 1. Dr. B. generally throughout the world own and acknowledge to be true Churches they are true Churches but the Parish Assemblies of England are so own'd and acknowledged therefore the Parish Assemblies of England are true Churches The Minor is undeniable for all the Reformed Churches of Europe gave us the right hand of Fellowship when we were much more corrupt then now and so have all the Churches of new-New-England done in their Treatise of Church Covenant and Answer to 32. Questions I put you to name one Church in the world that doth not acknowledge the Church of England to be the Spouse of Christ The Major is thus proved if the Judgement of the Churches See the joynt consent of sundry godly and learned Ministers published by W. Rathbad p. 7. of Christ ought to be taken for the Judgement of God then those Societies which they own and acknowledge to be true Churches are so but the former is true therefore the latter of the first Proposition there can be no doubt The second Proposition is evident from Mathew 18. 17. 18. He that will not regard the Judgement of that particular Church whereof he is a Member is to be esteemed as a Heathen or Publican Of how much sorer censure shal he be thought worthy that despiseth the Judgement of all the known Churches in the world Again Christ hath given his Church power to judge and pronounce of a particular man that he is in the Estate of salvation and that infallibly therefore he hath made it much more able to pronounce of a Congregation or people that is a true Church which is a matter of no such difficulty as the other 1 Tim. 3. 15. the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth but this it could not be if it should be ignorant of a Truth so necessary as this viz. what people are to be accounted a true Church That these societies by you mentioned may bear Testimony to yours to be true may be undeniable but then the Que●●ion will Answ I. O. be whether these by you mentioned be true Churches rightly cō●ituted according to Gospel order that which is the very question betwixt us is by you taken for granted before it be proved and brought in by you as an Argument to prove it self the Question you are to prove is that the Parishes of that Nation be generally true Churches which I deny and so consequently all other that be of the same Matter and Form Now those Churches which you bring to prove yours to be true are of the same Matter and Form with you and if you be false then they also and if they should differ either in Matter of Form from you they could not possibly confesse you to be true Now to say you are true Churches because other societies who are one for matter of substance with you say so is as much as if you should say we are true Churches therfore we are true Churches That the Testimony of such a Church as is by you mentioned Mat. 18. 1 Tim. 3. is to be taken according to the intent of those Scriptures I grant but then you must first prove that those Churches by you mentioned are such not so confidently beg the question till that be first done these Scriptures will not support your Conclusion Wheras you desire me to name one true Church in the world that does not acknowledge the Churches of England to be the Spouse of Christ that I shall doe in

recovery the Lord calls not out but to reform nay if they were not past recovery why did you come out from them seeing you lay such blame upon others for separating from you because you have some gudly and so there was in Rome from whence it appears that you could not keep that constitution you had before if you had any therefore that constitution that you had from them which you still retain without any essential difference evidenced that if you be a true Church Rome is too Parishes were the first seats of Popery after of Prelacy and now you endeavor to take them up under the same Notion First they baptized all this Nation Infants and there laid the foundation making all Christians as they called them and then by the Laws of Civil Policy conveniency of situation c. they divided this Nation into so many Parishes and counted all Members living within the precincts bounds and liberties of such a place of such a Church though in works they denyed God They came first in by Honorius Bishop of Canterbury saith Mr. Saltmarsh bringing the learned Mr. Selden for proof in his book De decimis but how ever it is evident that there was never such a thing as Parish heard of in all the word of God they never were of Apostolical constitution there was never such a thing heard of in all the Word of God that ever a man should be accompted a member of this Society rather then of that meerly from liberties of place whereby it appears they were not of Divine institution but humane Lastly I deny that to be the means appointed in the word of God in the days of the Gospel for gathering of Churches which you say yours were gathered by viz. the preaching of the Gospel and the command of the Magistrate That is the way appointed and approved of by God that the Apostles went in when they constiruted Churches but the way that they went was by the preaching of the Gospel only without the command of the Civil Magistrate ergo c. The Major is undeniable the Minor is proved Asts ● 41. and all the Churches that the Apostles constituted were so constituted 2. If the preaching of the Gospel and the command of the Magistrate are to go together to the constitution of a Church then where men are wrought upon by the Gospel they must stay till the Magistrate commands before they joyn to the Church for what God hath joyned together no man ought to part but they ought not to do so for they may joyne themselves the same day of their conversion if there be no Magistrate Acts 2. 41. therefore these two are not to go together Nay how if there should be no Christain Magistrate to command it is possible must a man stay till there be one before he be joyned to the Church if he believe How if there be none while he lives what then If you say as in our publike Dispute you did when I urged the Apostolical constitution that then there was no Magistrate this is a plain grant then that you were not gathered as they were and I desire you to shew your Scripture to prove that then the preaching of the Gospel was sufficient then and after the power of the Magistrate is to be jo●ned with it Where hath Christ shewed you this Is not the Gospel as well able to effect its own ends now as it was then I was as easie for God to have turned the hearts of Magistrates then had the Aposties wanted their power as since Are you true Ministers of Christ powerfully enabled from him ro dispence his Gospel it will bring as many as be fit matter for the Church you need not make your supplement from the Word to the Sword It is the commanding power of Love that is to force into the Church of Christ and all that are so wrought upon need not to be forced they are willing in the day of the Lords power and to force those into the Church that are not willing is a ready way to fill the Church with Hypocrites and to force by compulsion into the Church is directly to contradict Christs order in his Testament and to make up a Church of such matter as all Gods people ought to flie from If you say it is not constitution you apply it to but recalling I answer it is not recalling that can serve your turn for you have never been called as you stand or if you had it was lost and a new foundation to be begun as above or thirdly If it was not the case is the same no power of the Magistrate though an Ordinance of God●n●●● place is to be exercised in reforming Gospel Churches see Rev. 2 4 5 ● 1. 1 2 3 4 18 c. See what the Lord councels these backslided people too to repent and turn to their first love and take he Lords Councel while he offered it or else he would come upon them not with the power of the Magistrate to beat them to him contrary to their wills but with the power of his Justice to take away that means of grace he had afforded them to your places of Scripture I answer thus we are not under Moses but Christ we are to follow those examples in this case that the Apostles and God himself in the New Testament hath left us Consider Matth. 17 5. Heb. 1. 1. Acts 3. 22 23. Thus these Arguments being answered which should be as the foundation to bear up all the rest and being found too light all the rest were they 500. of them will melt away like Snow before the Sun Your inanimadversions is the reason why you see no difference between Reply this and the former Argument that was taken from the internal essential causes this from the external instrumentally efficient which might have been spared but for your importunate crying out Dr. B against our first gathering which I affirm to have been out of Heathenism only by preaching the gospel and out of Popery by that and the Magistrates assistance You desire to see proved that ever these 8432. Parishes were gathered by the preaching of the Gospel into a Church you may see sufficient to give any reasonable man satisfaction in the Answer of the Elders of New England to which I formerly referd you though their testimony sway not with you their intercited reasons may The ninth Question runs thus Whether do you hold all the most of our Parish Assimblies in Old England to be true visible Churches of Christ with which you may lawfully joyn in every part of Gods true Worship c. They answer first that they doubt not but of ancient time there have been many true Churches in England consisting of right matter and compacted and united together by the right form of an holy Covenant The Gospel was brought hither in the Apostles times or within a little while after Mr. Fox his reports out of Guildas Te tullian and Nicephorus

Minor thus Where ever the word of God is faithfully and constantly Preached to the Ears and Eyes of people and by them attended and submitted unto there Christ is present by his grace But the word of God is faithfully and constantly preached in the Parochial Assemblies of England c. Ergo. Again Where Christ by his Spirit in the Ministry of his word converts confirms and comforts his people there is the special presence of his Grace But in our Assemblies Christ converts c. Ergo he is present with us Lastly Where there is a settled meeting together in the name of Christ for a true worship of Christ there is Christ present But there is such a meeting by the Assemblies of England Ergo. The Major I grant id est 1 Where Christ dwells by the special Answ 1. 0. presence of his Grace as they be golden Candlesticks a house of God a Sion there must needs be a true Church for it is no more but as if you should say thus where the presence of Christ is with a society as they are a true Church there must needs be a Church for all those expressions Candlestick Sion house are but special tearms emphatically to set forth the nature of that one thing the Church for the Candlesticks are the Church Rev. 1. 20. The House of God is the Church 1 Tim 3. 15. But now I deny the Minor I deny that God dwells in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I deny not but that God may be present with some who walk in the sincerity of their hearts to what they know but that God dwells with the Parishes generally of which the Question is as a Church I deny And now to the proofs of your Minor you argue thus Where ever the word is faithfully c. I deny that the word is faithfully preached in the Parishes of Answ 1. this Nation generally 2. I deny that the word such as it is is generally submitted unto except by assent and by submitting you understand a bare acknowledgment of the things taught to be true then the consequence is abundantly false for the wickedst men in the world perhaps the Devils themselves may assent and submit so far and no man will say such may make a true Church Lastly I deny the Consequence that wheresoever the word is truly preached there the presence of Christ is as it is a Church A bare denial might be sufficient to a bare assertion for you have given neither Scripture nor reason for your Argument But I answer first thus If in many Parishes of this Nation there be ignorant idle dumb doggs for the Ministers of those places then the Word cannot be faithfully preached there But in many of the Parishes of this Nation there are such Ergo the consequence is undeniable The Minor is your own words For the first time I heard you Preach and excepted against you you applyed those words of the Prophet Esay 56. to some of the Ministers of this Nation Secondly That word that they do Preach such as it is is not obeyed nor submitted to upon your own grounds for if the word be generally truely preached and generally truely submitted to it must unavoidably follow that all the men in all the Parishes of this Nation are faithful people which is false because in their works they do evidently deny it and to say they be faithful people is first to Preach plain contradictions one while denouncing Gods judgements against them as wicked unbelievers another while when you are put to prove them Churches tell them they be faithful people to sow pillows under their elbows and to say Peace when there is none and making them to trust in lying words that will not profit Jer. 7. 4. Ezek. 13. 10. Thirdly I deny the Consequence Though the word should be truly Preached and assented and submitted to that will not prove that place to be the place where the presence of Christ is as it stands related to the Church according to your Scriptures because the presence of Christ in the faithful Preaching of his word and also submission to may be separable sometimes from the Church and therefore cannot be a note seeing that which is a note of a thing to know it by must agree to it and to it only and at all times You argue further Where Christ by his Spirit Converts c. Answer The special presence of Christ may be considered two ways Either with Believers simply as such being fit matter for a Church or Secondly as they be a company of Believers joyned together in Gospel-order being a Temple built up by God for an habitation for himfelf through the Spirit Ephes 2. 21 If the presence of Christ be by you understood in this last sense which is only to your purpose your first Argument standing in that form then I deny the Consequence because that both Conversion by the Ministry of the word c. may be separable from the Church and performed out of the Church as is so evident it needs no proof Lastly you reason thus Where there is a meeting together c. Answ I deny that there is such a meeting by the Parishes of England as that in Matth. 18. for the presence of Christ there spoken of is that when two or three that are truly Godly are met together to desire something of the Lord he will grant their requests because he at that time is present with them but what is this to the general meeting of the Parishes of this Nation where many nay the most are openly wicked some meeting for fashion because others do some for Custom because they have done so to hear a Sermon a Prayer and then depart not knowing what the power of Godliness is what I say that meeting in Matth. 18. is to this is a riddle to me and truly Sir I wonder why you left your Minor so helpless adding neither one Scripture nor Reason to help it You grant my Major but in such a sense as is to me non sense when Reply Dr. B. I say those Societies where Christ dwels by his special presence are his Church you say true if he dwels in them as they be his Church You might have done better to have waved your Asses and given us an instance of any one Societie where Christ was ever so present that could be evicted by the Word not to have been his Church Where ever the Kings Personal presence is there is the Court and so where Christs special Gracious presence is there is his Church the Scriptures which you speak nothing to plainly hold forth this doctrine that the Assemblies where Christ is peculiarly resident and gives out speciall tokens of his grace are his Churches and that he is in such a manner present no where els in all the world I reason thus Christ is only visibly present in his visible Church therefore where he is discerned so present there is his visible Church

to confirm this are at large related 2. Though Popish Apostacy did afterward for many Ages overspread all the Churches in England yet they believe God still reserved a remnant for whose sakes he preserved the holy Scriptures amongst them and baptism in the name of the Trinity only and when God of his rich grace was pleased to stir up the Spirit of King Edward the sixth and Queene Elizabeth to cast off the Pope c. though at first some Sbires and sundry Parishes stood out against that Reformation for a time yet afterwards they generally received the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. which are published and consented to by all the Ministers endowed with the silent consent also of the People and Subscription of the hands of the chief of them containing the Marrow and Summe of the Oracles of God which are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Eloquia Dei concredited only to the Church We doe therefore acknowledge that where the People doe with common and mutuall consent gather into setled Congregations every Lords day as in England they do to hear and teach this Doctrin and doe profess their subjection thereunto and doe bind themselves and their Children as in Baptism they doe to continue therein that such Congregations are true Churches much more you may read in their Treatise of Church Covenant in their Answer to the eleventh Objection where they shew that if Christian Congregations in England were at the first combined by Covenant the Eternity of Gods Covenant is such that it is not the Interposition of many Corruptions that may arise in after-time that can disanull the same c. That Objection also that the Members of our Parishionall Assemblies were not brought in by their own voluntary profession but by the Authority and Proclamation of the Prince as also that Rome and the Assemblies of Papists may go for true Churches also you shall find there very fully answered The Name of Parish I perceive all along is stumbled at as Popish as are the names of Parsons Vicars and Curats which is the main if not the only Reason why some of you cast off both the English Churches and Ministers and yet the thing signified by the name is owned by Scripture and upon that account Mr. Hollingworth proves Parishes to be of Divine Right to whom I formerly referr'd you and reason it self evinceth it most expedient for the better performance of those duties which arise from Church-Membership that the Members should cohabit or dwell as neer together as conveniently they may It 's falsely charged upon as that we hold Parish Precincts give a man right or make him matter fit for a visible Congregation but the Question is of a Nation or City Christian whether the bounds of Parishes discreetly measured may not rationally be fixed as most expedient for Religious Meetings seeing all cannot meet in one place and if the Members of a Parish be visible Saints you will not say it is not lawfull to limit the Congregation unto such read the Review formerly cited and that our Congregations generally consist of such though not in your yet in a Scripture sense hath been in part and shall be more fully proved In your Answer to the first Branch I see nothing worth replying to 1. The World out of which this Nation when made Christian was called every mans Eyes but yours easily see 2. Many Members of the best Churches retain the lusts of the World in their hearts and 3 May be deadly Enemies one to another bite and devour one another yea and be Enemies to their faithfull Ministers for telling them the truth and yet the effects of Gospel gathering seen well enough To the second branch 1. You say we retain the Constitution which we had from Popery which is very false for we rejected Popery embraced Gods holy truths and joyned together in true worship and so were Matter and Form distant far enough from Popish Rulers you mean we retain the same Parish bounds which Papists left us to which sufficient hath been spoken 2. You deny the Command of the Magistrate assisting the publick Preaching of the Gospel to be a means appointed and approved of God for the gathering or recalling of a back-slided People That the Magistrates duty is to command yea and compell men that have forsaken their God and the true Faith to return again to God I proved by the approved examples of the good Kings undor the old Testament which you throw off very lightly as if old-Testament-Proofs were of no force whereas the Apostle expresly teacheth that the Gospel Churches are built upon the Prophets as well as the Apostles Ephes 2. 20. And that I may farther convince you of your Errour and Folly in slighting these Examples 1. You cannot but grant that what these good Kings did was by vertue of divine warrant Deut. 13. 5-11 17. 2. Exod. 22. 20. 2. It will thus appear that these Rules and Patterns are binding under the New Testament 1. Because we find no Repeal of these Precepts no Prohibition of these Practises 2. This Power is of Common and Naturall Equity and that which is answerable to the Morall Law binds under the Gospel 3 This Power was established and exercised upon Morall grounds and for Moral ends Deut 13. 5. 11. 4. We find this very thing prophesied of the times of the New Testament Es 49. 23. Zech. 13. 3. 5. The Apostle makes Rulers a terrour to evill works and Revengers to execute wrath upon Evil Doers without limitation or exception and you will not deny transgressions of the first Table to be evill works Moreover you cannot but remember that it is a Gospel-expression Compel them to come in Your first Argument from the Apostles gathering Churches without the Magistrates help there being no Christian Magistrate proves the Power of God who can make his Word alone Effectual but it proves not that had there been Christian Magistrates they ought not to have aided by their authority or that the Apostles would not have called for their assistance The consequence of your second Argument is absurd If I have Bread and Water to preserve my life must I not make use of these because I want those other means which God hath appointed and which when he sees good he will add to these to make my life more comfortable Your conclusion of this Answer is a triumph before the victory My following Argument which you say will melt like Snow before the Sun may make a floud which will sweep away your refuge of lyes James 3. 14 15. Those Assemblies wherein Christ dwells by the special presence Arg. 4. Dr. B. of his Grace are true visible Churches but Christ dwells in the Parochial Assemblies of England by the special presence of his Grace Ergo the Parochial Assemblies of England are true visible Churches The Major proved Rev. 1. 12 13 Psal 132 13 14. Exod. 25. 31. 1 Tim. 3. 15. 2 Cor. 6. 16. The