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A48248
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A friendly discourse between an English dissenter and a French Protestant concerning the liturgy and ceremonies of the Church of England. By Daniel la Fite, M.A. Rector of East-Dean, in the county of Sussex. The first part.; Friendly discourse between an English dissenter and a French Protestant. Part 1
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Lafite, Daniel.
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1691
(1691)
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Wing L177; ESTC R201987
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32,685
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118
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And in the first place I think it ought to be taken away because it is unlawfull to have a set Form of Prayer impos'd upon the Church F. P. Either you or I Sir are strangely mistaken in this point for I must own that my Judgment always hath been that it is not onely lawfull to have a set Form of Prayer in the Church but what is more that no Church can well be without one E. D. Pray how so Sir For if I be not greatly mistaken you speak now against the General sense of the French Protestants for I never heard that they had any set Forms of Prayer F. P. I perceive Sir you have been ill inform'd concerning these matters for the truth is we French Protestants have a Common-prayer-book which was compos'd by Calvin himself and therein we agree with the concurring practise of the Universal Church for I never read or heard of any Church in the World but had a set Form of Prayer so that for you to oppose it is no less than to deny the Authority Testimony and Practise of all the Saints of the Old and New Testaments both Prophets and Apostles and the express Command of our Saviour himself and in a word Sir you condemn the general sense and practise of Christianity and the Holy Catholick Church E. D. I hear what you say Sir and expect you should prove it F. P. Nay more than this you contradict the Example of our great Lord and Master the Founder of our Religion and the Author and Finisher of our Faith E. D. This is a high Charge indeed but pray be pleas'd to make it out F. P. That I will Sir First I say that you contradict the Authority and Practice of the Prophets in the Old Testament forasmuch as it is evident that they made use of set Forms of Prayer and had a particular Command so to doe to be convinc'd of this be pleas'd to reade the 26th Chapter of Deuteronomy from Verse 13. to 16. and the 14th Chapter of Hosea beginning at the second Verse Take with you words and turn unto the Lord and say unto him c. and the 2d of Joel Verse 17. Let the Priests the Ministers of the Lord weep between the Porch and the Altar and let them say Spare thy people O Lord c. Secondly You contradict the Command of our Lord and Saviour and the Practice of the holy Apostles which I prove from the 11th Chapter of St. Luke the 1st and 2d Verses where we reade that one of our Saviour's Disciples asked him in the Name of all his Companions to teach them to pray as John had taught his Disciples whereupon our Saviour addressing himself to all his Disciples said When ye pray say Our Father c. From whence I infer these two things First That the Apostles had a set Form of Prayer prescrib'd them by Christ himself for it is impossible to order any Form in more plain and express terms than our Saviour makes use of in recommending this Prayer to his Disciples Secondly I conclude from hence that the Disciples made use of this Form which will not be question'd if we consider the great desire they shewed to obtain this Form of Prayer from our Saviour and the readiness wherewith they always obeyed the Commands he laid upon them So that this cannot but be a sufficient proof to any thinking Man that when they prayed they made use of this Form or Prescription their blessed Lord and Master had at their request given them with this express Command When you pray say Our Father c. 3. You oppose the General Practice of Christendom and of the Holy Catholick Church because neither your self nor any Man else can give an instance of any Church in the World from the Apostles times to these our days but what had a set Form of Prayers for though all have not used the same yet there is no Church but has used some Form or other 4. You condemn the Example and Practice of our dear Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ himself for it is evident that he himself made use of a Form of Prayer Matt. 26. v. 44. E. D. I will not undertake now to return you a particular Answer to what you have here alledged but shall onely say that Praying by a Form has by experience been found a hindrance and obstacle to true fervent Prayer in the Spirit and to deal plainly with you this seems to be one great reason why the Ministers of the Church of England are so dull and ignorant in this point and so little acquainted with spiritual Prayer F. P. I am not a little surpriz'd at this your Answer for having but just now proved to you that the Prophets and Apostles the Holy Catholick Church and Christ himself made use of Forms of Prayer you after all this come and tell me that Praying by Forms is a hindrance to Praying by the Spirit which is as much as to say that neither the Prophets Apostles the Catholick Church nor Christ himself prayed by the Spirit because they made use of a set Form which is a near step to Blasphemy E. D. I did not design to say so much neither though I must confess that Praying by a set Form seems to me for I find it so by experience to be a great Obstacle to true spiritual Prayer F. P. Though it may seem so to you yet your Charity should lead you rather to question your own Judgment than to pass so rash a Censure upon the Saints of the Old and New Testament yea upon Christ himself besides you ought to be very wary of exposing your self to the derision of all men by supposing your self wiser than all the Prophets and Apostles than the whole Christian Church and Christ himself since it is most certain that they made use of Forms and not onely so but our Saviour himself prescribed a Form of Prayer to his Disciples commanding them when they prayed to use the same which he would never have done had it indeed been so great a hindrance to servent Prayer by the Spirit as you pretend E. D. If it be not a hindrance to others I am sure 't is so to me F. P. I hope I shall understand you better if you please to explain to me what you mean by praying by the Spirit E. D. I suppose no true Christian can be ignorant of what Praying by the Spirit is and therefore I can't see any necessity there is of explaining a thing so obvious to the understanding of all F. P. Since you seem unwilling to give me your meaning I am very free to give you mine to pray by the Spirit is as I take it to pray by the help and assistance of the Holy Ghost so as to have our hearts and minds deeply affected with the sense of our wants and all our Faculties and Affections inflamed with the Love of God and stedfast Faith in his Promises E. D. I perceive we do not
is contained in this Prayer â—…ter which follow some Prayers â—… Thanksgivings to be used upon particular occasions being extreamly well suited to those pious Ends they are intended for as for Rain Fair-weather c. E. D. But I am sure there is more than this contain'd in your Common-prayer and therefore pray do not shut up your Book so soon F. P. There is something more behind I confess but because I am loath to abuse your patience I hope you will think this general account to be sufficient What remains unmentioned are the Collects Epistles and Gospels which you cannot but like as to the matter because they are the Word of God And as for their Order it is admirable as being so well suited to the particular Days they are appointed for that by means of them the Mysteries commemorated upon those days are unfolded the History represented or the Example applied to the great benefit and edification of those that truly fear God and desire to improve themselves it saving knowledge and are willing to imitate the holy Examples oâ— those faithfull Servants of God whâ— are departed this life in his Faith and Fear E. D. Is this all then F. P. No for besides all this ouâ— Liturgy contains a Form for the Administration of the Lord's-Supper another for the Publick Baptism oâ— Infants another for such of ripeâ— years as likewise a short Catechism â—… the Order of Confirmation a Forâ— for the Solemnizing of Matrimony the Order for the Visitation of thâ—… Sick with the Form of Administrinâ— to them the Holy Communion thâ— Order for the Burial of the Dead and the Thanksgiving of Women after Child-birth and lastly a Commination of God's Anger and Judgment against Sinners E. D. Ay here 's a multiplicity of Forms indeed but I am confident if you would speak sincerely and from your heart you will grant me that all these Forms are very useless and unnecessary F. P. If I should grant you this I must not onely speak against my Judgment and Conscience but also condemn our French Reformed Churches since it is most certain that they also have Forms appointed for most of the foresaid occasions For instance we have set Forms for Celebrating of the Holy Communion for the Baptizing of Children for the Solemnizing of Matrimony c. And lastly I should condemn and oppose the general sense of our French Protestants who have always had and stil have a great respect and veneration not onely for those Forms last mentioned but for the whole Body of the English Liturgy E. D. You are pleased to say so F. P. And you will be forc'd to say so too if you please onely to take the trouble to reade Dr. Durel's Treatise in Defence of the English Liturgy for there you will meet with unquestionable Records of the Opinion and Judgment of all the ablest and most learned Divines amongst the French Protestants who have in all times and upon all occasions as far declared themselves for the English Common-prayer and spoke as highly and favourably of it as any of the Divines of the Church of England ever did E. D. I have not Dr. Durel's Book and therefore cannot satisfie my self by perusing of it but if you will be pleas'd to inform me what he saith concerning the Judgment of your French Divines with respect to our English Liturgy I shall be glad to hear it F. P. Dr. Durel amongst other Testimonies produceth a Letter of the Reverend Monsieur de l' Angle at that time one of the Ministers of the Reformed Church of Roan a Person of great Worth and Fame wherein upon occasion of the happy Restauration of King Charles II. he saith That his heart leaped for joy when he was told that the English Liturgy and antient Discipline was like to be restor'd He alledgeth another Testimony of Monsieur Gache's then Minister of Charenton one of the most eloquent and zealous Preachers the French Reformed Churches ever had who in one of his Letters declares That he had read the English Liturgy and had been wonderfully edified by it He produceth also a Letter of Monsieur du Bosc the Minister of Cane an extraordinary Person for Learning Eloquence and true Piety where he declares That he as much approves of a Minister performing Divine Service after the way of the Church of England as he that officiates according to the manner of the French Reformed Churches Besides these he sets down the Testimony of Monsieur Bochart the Minister of Alancon a Man of great Repute and Learning who declares he found the Liturgy to be very good and well order'd as also that of Monsieur Goyon Minister of Bordeaux one of the most grave and learned Divines of all the Province of Aquitain and greatly versed in Antiquity in these words There is not one Minister saith he in all the Province of Aquitain that thinks his Conscience offended by using of the English Liturgy and declares that those people dream and dote who are of that Opinion and those Gentlemen amongst you do extreamly wrong us when they quote us for to foment their Schism which cannot but be very scandalous But that I may not be further tedious I shall refer you to the foresaid Book of Dr. Durel where you will find enough to convince you that all our worthy Divines such as Peter du Moulin Monsieur Drelincourt Monsieur Daillé Monsieur Amyraut c. have express'd no less Esteem for the English Liturgy than any Son of the Church of England ever did To all which Testimonies I will add that of Spanhemius a French Divine and sometimes Preacher and Divinity-Reader at Geneva in his Epistle Dedicatory to the Lord Primate of Ireland prefixed to the Third Part of his Dubia Evangelica where commending the Publick Worship of God in the Church of England he declares that the like is scarcely to be found elsewhere E. D. According to what you tell me I cannot believe your French Divines to be Calvinists for I am confident Calvin was not of their opinion with regard to the English Liturgy F. P. To the end you may be able to judge what Calvin's opinion was about this matter I shall refer you to a passage of his in an Epistle Dedicatory to the Duke of Somerset Lord Protector during the minority of King Edward VI. which will convince you I suppose that he was of the same judgment with the rest of our French Divines his words are these Quoad formam Precum Rituum Ecclesiasticorum valde probo ut certa illa exstet à qua Pastoribus discedere in functione sua non liceat tam ut consulatur quorundam simplicitati imperitiae quam ut certius ita constet omnium inter se Ecclesiarum consensus postremò etiam ut obviam eatur desultoriae quorundam levitati qui novationes quasdam affectant Which may be englished thus As touching the form of Prayer and Ceremonies of the Church I do extremely approve that it