what if you doe not reade that Diotrephes was an unlawfull and Antichristian Minister you reade that he usurped over the faithfull hindred the due execution of Church-censures abused excommunication prated against the Brethren and practised a false government And if the want of discipline or neglect of due execution prove a Church to be no Church the faithfull in that societie were bound to separate If the Church had not the power of government at this time if we may beleeve you or receive your position they were no church if they had power in their hands and suffered it to be abused their sinne was the greater And if you take a view of your dealings in this or other particulars vilifying what you are not able to confute and wresting mens words contrary to their plaine meaning if your paper blush not I can hardly thinke but your conscience will smite SECT II. IF the Church of England hath not Christs keyes Can. Neces of Separat pag. 154. shee is not his saith Mr D. But the Church of England hath not Christs keyes saith Mr Brightman and y Syons plea. 111. others Therefore shee is not his house and consequently to be separated from ANSVVER YOur former reasons out of Mr D. I passe over because they have been answered already and are here thrust in to no purpose but onely to cover the insufficiency of your reply His answer was the want of discipline though an integrall part is no sufficient ground of separation This z Can. Neces of Separat p. 152 153. you offer not to disprove by any substantiall reason but with railing and reproach to disgrace wherein whether you more wound your own conscience or hurt your adversary be judge your selfe a Can. Neces of Separat pag. 212. 1 Pet. 3.9 Rom. 13.21 You say truely It is a Christian part not to render rebuke for rebuke and a thousand times better were it to sustaine even a legion of reproaches than for a man by turning though but one to give cause of suspition that evill hath got some part of conquest over him But if you looke into your own writings you shall finde them stuffed with insolent boasting scornfull taunts and reproaches unbeseeming your place person and a good cause I dare say all the Nonconformists that ever wrote in the cause of discipline never went in practise so much against their Principles as you in this one particular goe against your profession in the foresaid passage and a good conscience The matter in hand betwixt you and Mr D. is the absolute necessitie of Church-discipline to the being of a Church To what end then doe you bring That the Book of common-prayer used in the Assemblies of England is an infectious Liturgie Romish-stuffe a devised service raked out of three Romish Channells That the Ministery of the Church of England is unlawfull and Antichristian That the Ministery worship and government of of England are corruptions Doth this make ought to confirme your position or weaken the answer which was truely given But some thing must be said whether to or besides the purpose it matters not Another stratageme b Can. Neces of Separat pag. 153. you put in practice in the same place not very commendable You would seeme to confute the D. out of himselfe What say you if it appeare that Mr D. arguments doe lead rather to separation and that he speaketh one thing and practiseth another would not this be a strange sight especially to himselfe Now whether this be so we will here try by some reasons in his owne moode and figure But though the moode and figure be his the reasons be your owne and not his and the conclusions unjustly drawne from the Premises as the D. answered and we have shewed before Perhaps in warre stratagems may be of use but in the cause of God such cunning devices are dangerous symptoms This I note to entreat your serious reexamination of what you have done and now I come to the argument here propounded whereunto I make answer as you relate it for I have not the D. Booke to search out what he hath written The power of the keyes is twofold Concioualis Judicialis as it is usually called The first consists in the preaching of the Gospell wherein the kingdome of heaven is opened to the penitent sinnes remitted life promised and heaven shut to the obstinate which is the sword and the scepter of Christ whereby he saveth his people 2 Cor. 1.21 2 Cor. 10.4 Isa 11.4 Rom. 1.16 and conquereth his enemies beateth downe every strong hold pâ—ireeth to the division of foule and spirit and of the joynts and marrow and judgeth the very cogitations and thoughts of the heart These effects Christ executeth by his Word even when it is not assisted by the c To excommunicate is to remove the wicked irrepentant from participation of the Lords Supper least by sacrilegious presuming to violate that Table the ungodly should condemne themselves and defile others Bilson perpet gov cap. 9. discipline spoken of Now if it be rightly understood the Church of God cannot be without this key For the Church is gathered by the Word and is a company or societie which hath received the Word in profession at least and doth possesse it and amongst whom it dwelleth The Judiciall power of the d Excommunication is a meere spirituall punishment reacheth no further by Gods word than to take from offenders the remission of their sinnes by wanting the Word and Sacraments untill they repent Bilson Christian. part 3. pag. 52. keyes is the power of government which consisteth principally in the right ordering and dispensation of Church censures and so of the manners and necessities of all men which agreeth not to any one member nor to the communitie of the faithfull nor to any one singular governour but to the Ecclesiasticall Senate yet with due respect had to the communitie of the faithfull In the first sense the Church of England hath the power of the keyes e Cyp. lib. 1. epist 3. I hardly perswade the people yea I am forced to wrest it from them before they will suffer such to be admitted Bilson perpet gov c. 9. Great reason had those godly Fathers to see the whole Church satisfied before they released the sentence of excommunication c. and so doing they shewed not what right the multitude had to sit Iudges with the Bishop but what â—â—e themselves had to remove from the people all occasions of stumbling Id. pag. 113. If you take Excommunication for removing the unruly from the civill societie of the faithfull untill they conforme themselves unto a more Christian course of life I am not altogether averse that the whole Church should concurre in that action c. See August contr Par Ep. 1 l. 2. ca. 1. Can. Stay Sect. 12. pag. 123. not so much as is to be desired but in an eminent sort and that with Gods
AN ANSWER TO TWO TREATISES Of Mr. IOHN CAN THE Leader of the English Brownists in Amsterdam The former called A Necessitie of Separation from the Church of ENGLAND proved by the Nonconformists Principles The other A Stay against Straying Wherein in opposition to M. Iohn Robinson he undertakes to prove the unlawfulnesse of hearing the Ministers of the Church of England Very seasonable for the present times By the late learned laborious and faithfull servant of Jesus Christ JOHN BALL He that is first in his owne cause seemeth just but his neighbour commeth and searcheth him Prov. 18.17 Prove all things hold fast that which is good 1 Thes 5.21 LONDON Printed by R. B. and are to be sold by John Burroughes at his Shop at the signe of the Golden Dragon neere the Inner Temple gate in Fleetstreet 1642. TO The Christian READER Sound Knowledge and love of the Truth together with inward peace and Spirituall joy through Communion with Christ in the Ordinances of the Gospell Christian READER THis ensuing discourse was prepared for the Presse by the Reverend Author and committed to one of us that it might be made publike of which we will say nothing but shall freely venture it to stand or fall by the award of an impartiall judgement Neither shall wee present thee with the Authors deserved praises seeing his rare pietie and great learning were sufficiently knowne to very many of various rankes who were well acquainted with him and his workes already Printed have given a competent proofe hereof unto all others who have 〈◊〉 them without prejudice and partialitie Only by occasion of publishing this piece wee â—â—we leave to cleare him from such aspersions as by 〈◊〉 have causlesly beene cast upon him and by others too much and too easily believed against him a thing incident to men most eminent and innocent as instances in all Ages will evince not only to the blemishing of his just estimation but also as we conceive to the prejudice of the truth it selfe and in favour of many spreading errours and exorbitances Those aspersions which wee shall endeavour to take off are two which though they openly contradict each other yet they unhappily agree to defame our worthy friend whose credit wee judge our selves many wayes bound to vindicate and preserve The one intimating some degree of declining from his former inconformitie in deserting the Nonconformists cause and grounds being too much inclined to favour the times in our Ceremonies and Service book The other expressing his advancing beyond the wonted limets of a Nonconformist towards the cause and course of separation Two things are pretended to confirme the former 1. A passage in the Preface of his Book called A friendly tryall of the grounds tending to separation c. pag. 3. his words are these Many are the objections which are made against set formes of Prayer and particularly against our booke of Common Prayer All which I have endeavoured to answer severally not because they are of so great weight but because I desired fully to satisfie every doubt c. Secondly that in the whole frame of the same booke he speakes more covertly and coldly against the corruptions of our Church than became a man who continued stedfast in the wayes of Nonconformity For Answer whereunto we affirme in the Generall That upon our knowledge he lived and dyed a strict forbearer and firme opposer of all such corruptions as the Nonconformists heretofore so usually called had commonly by their publike writings disallowed Nor have wee knowne any man in that kinde more precise uniforme and constant to his opinion in discourse prayers and practices yet alwayes carried on with Christian moderation and meekenesse which graces are of singular use in controversies of this nature yea some of us can witnesse his purpose if God had lent him longer life by a set Treatise to have shewed himselfe a plaintiffe for the Nonconformists against the corruptions in our Church as in this hee appeares their defendant against the Calumnies of Master Can. These testimonies may satisfie the sober minded that he continued cordial to their cause whereunto more might be added but wee desire not to revive the remembrance of these differences among deare brethren Because wee pray and hope that through Gods mercy by meanes of our Gracious Sovereigne and of the present Parliament they will in such sort be buried that they shall arise no more to our disturbance and discomfort More particularly to the passage objected out of the forecited Preface we Answer That the words themselvs doe not necessarily imply any such sense but they may admit yea they will carry a better construction if the Reader will be candid and well advised For he saith not that he hath answered the objections as suggesting little or nothing blameworthy in our Liturgie but because they are not of so great weight as to inforce the unlawfulnesse of those set formes or warrant a separation from our Churches and publike worship in regard thereof All which both the title of the Booke and the tenour of the whole discourse therein together with this Treatise exhibited will sufficiently cleare unto the indifferent and attentive Reader And that this was his meaning some of us can testifie from his owne mouth which also he would have manifested to the world if God had lengthened his life either in an Epistle annexed to this worke now brought into the open light or some other way as might have been judged most convenient But you will say Object The other ground of this imputation is more pregnant for why did he not speake out against the corruptions of the times as others did Nay why did he seek to cleaâ— the book of Common Prayer of some things charged upon it Two things we conceive may fully take off the strength of this objection Answ 1. Because it was impertinent here to aggravate or multiply corruptions objected but rather to shew that as in some things the booke by them was overcharged so notwithstanding all that could be alledged against it yet separation from our worship could not be lawfull much lesse necessarie 2 The state of those times wherein this piece was penned would not brooke more plainnesse in that and such like points this we could if it were expedient aboundantly evidence by declaring with what difficultie it passed the Presse what exceptions were taken at some harmelesse expressions and what amendments were exacted in some phrases which seemed somewhat openly to hint the Authors heart-workings towards that Reformation which in these times is much desired and endeavoured The second imputation remaines to be removed viz. that though our Reverend Author had both reasoned and written against the opinions and practice of separation in the time of his health yet on his death bed he did retract and with griefe repent what in that kinde he had done This is commonly reported confidently believed and gladly embraced not only here at home but also in forreigne parts even in
America as by divers letters and other wayes some of us have beene informed It is high time therefore to give open check unto these groundles rumours lest the cause here maintained should thereby suffer prejudice either in the mindes of them who are friends or of those who be adversaries thereunto And for this end we intreat the Reader first to consider that this imputation being directly contrary to the former either they must confute each other or else argue the man strangely light in wheeling from one extreame unto another or guilty of a fowler fault in writing one thing and thinking another from both which charges we assure our selves his great soliditie in judgement and pietie in practice will fully absolve him in the consciences of all such who were acquainted with him And as for others we hope they may bee aboundantly satisfied by the ensuing evidence First in that foure or five dayes before his death he expressed to some of us his willingnesse to have this Treatise presented to publike view which hee had composed since the former Secondly so soone as he had finished this book he undertooke a large Treatise of the Church wherein he intended to discover the nature of Schisme and to deale in the main controversies touching the essence and government of the visible Church Concerning these matters we have almost fifty sheets of Paper written with his owne hand wherein many passages expresle his continued dislike of the separations both then and now in practice And these writings together with his other papers he on his death bed committed to the care of some of us to be disposed of for private or publike use as we should judge expedient Had there beene any griefe upon his Spirit or alteration in his judgement in reference to what he had spoken or printed against the separation we know none so likely to have beene acquainted therewith as our selves For one of us dwelling neare unto him was for many years his bosome companion and in his last sicknesse seldome from him Another being requested during his weaknesse to supply his place so journing in the same towne was daily with him The other three of us being his familiar friends did all visit him within one two or three dayes before his end We are all of us as we hope though most unworthy the Ministers of Iesus Christ who desire to be faithful And we doe each for our selves seriously protest in the presence of Almighty God that we never heard any syllable from him sounding that way Yea there is one thing more to be added which may for ever silence all gainesayers viz. That one of us through Gods good providence suspecting what hath since fallen out and being desirous to prevent such false rumours within lesse than two dayes before his death and not many houres before he was speechlesse asked him to this effect Whether he had any remorse or disquiet in his minde for any thing hee had written in opposition to the way of Separation whereto he thus answered I thanke God I have not any but I rather take comfort in what I have done and could have desired if it had beene the will of God to have lived a while longer to have given further assistance in that worke And this question was propounded to him and the Answer returned by him not only in the audience of some other of us but also of sundry other godly friends who can attest the truth of this relation Lastly We boldly challenge any person to come forth and to make proofe either by word or writing that this our Reverend Brother either repented his paines or changed his judgement against the way of separation which if he shall accordingly doe then will we be content to undergoe the severest censures that are due unto unjust suppressors of the truth But if any failing herein shall hereafter persist to promote either by scattering or crediting the forenamed reports wee leave them to the judgement of all indifferent men whether they deserve not to be accounted defamers of the dead and lyars against the truth if not subtile promoters of their owne cause and course by pretending falsly the Patronage of their Adversary when they could not stand before his Arguments But in probabilitie some will thus reply to our Apologie That if your friend did not retract the more was his sin and the lesse his honour Unto whom we returne this answer That this censure strongly presumes his former discourse in the maine matter to be erroneous and unjustifiable whereas that is the thing still in question and as we verily believe cannot be solidly proved And though our Reverend Brother be dead whom God had extraordinarily fitted for disputes of this nature yet we doubt not but the living Lord wil raise up for himself some other instruments to maintain the truth which he had undertaken There is one thing more Christian Reader which we desire thee to take notice of viz. That whereas it is often reported that this Authors former booke was fully answered before it passed the Presse and that therefore further answer thereâ—o cannot bee expected wee shall relate the truth for thy satisfaction in that particular Our worthy Brother having by Conference as some of us and others know with unshaken strength defended the lawfulnes of set formes of Prayer he was afterwards by a Leâ—ter sent from a worthy Gentleman M. Richard Knightly requested to state that question then much in agitation and to give in some arguments for his personall setling Hereupon in the space of one day the Messenger staying for an answer to the letter he did set down his judgment with some grounds thereof and sent them unto his much honoured friend from whom a copie being procured and conveyed into New England it seems an Answer was undertaken by a reverend brother there In the meane time the number of them increasing who withdrew themselves from our Church Assemblies because of the Liturgie there used he was importuned both by Ministers and others from divers parts of this Kingdome to take some further paines in that Controversie This occasioned the perusall of his former papers and the examining of those Arguments which he met withall either in Printed bookes Manuscrip s or the Rela ion on of friends against the use of set forms of prayer in generall and of our Common prayer booke particularly And thus the Embrio biggened and being ready to be brought forth into the light an answer unto the first conceptions came to the Authors hand wherein was nothing materiall as he conceived but what was answered in the bookâ— then about to be licenced yet by reason of some exceptions in another frame suggested he judged it sufcient to annex a few marginall notes unto his booke as thou mayest observe page 13.15.24.33 c. being unwilling in a more open way to reply upon the private answer of him whom he highly prized and intending if God had spared life to have returned more
the mouth of one witnesse though his testimony were received yet may no man be condemned See Beza annot Maier in Matth. 18.7 both their owne and Neighbouring Churches so did the Ancients The Ordination of Bishops by themselves alone or their Chaplaines and that of many at a clap so did the Ancients The thrusting of Ministers upon the people without their knowledge or consent so did the Ancients The ordination of Ministers without cure or charge so did the Ancients The ignorance idlenesse pride luxurie pompe covetousnesse contention and schisme of such as thrust themselves rashly ambitiously profanely into offices by favour monie flatterie or other corruption so did the Ancients They reprove these and such like abuses and humbly seek and sue for reformation but tolerate what they cannot amend and hold communion with the Churches of God in the Ordinances of Religion and so did the Ancients And if the Ancients did neither lay the grounds of Separation nor walke contrary to their owne Principles in holding communion it is great ignorance at least to charge the Nonconformists as if they walked not according to their owne rules when they doe not separate Nay if the Non-conformists should not disallow both your positions and practice of Separation they should not walke agreeable to their owne Principles or the truth of Scripture For you hold the power of the keyes originaliter and executivè is given to the community of the faithfull many or few yea though but two or three joyned together in a Church way This the Nonconformists approve not You hold it is necessary and essentiall to the calling of a Minister that he be approved chosen and ordained only by that congregation where he is to administer This the Nonconformists altogether dislike You hold all Ministers that be not chosen and ordained after your forme propounded to be unlawfull Idol Antichristian Ministers This the Nonconformists judge to be Antichristian The consequence of your Positions is this That since the Church of the New Testament was established upon the earth there was scarce a true lawfull Ministerie to be found where with the faithfull might lawfully hold communion in the worship of God This the Non-conformists doe detest and abhorre Of other your positions in the Sections following SEC III. CAN. Stay against Stray Sect. 1. pag. 4 5. WHatsoever God hath bestowed upon his Church as her priviledge the same is to be found in his Word But it is not mentioned there that Beleivers as their priviledge ought to heare Antichristian Teachers The proposition is unquestionably certaine by these Scriptures Psal 19.7 2 Tim. 3.15.16 Isai 8.20 Ioh. 15.17 Act. 20.27 Besides Contra Gentes this is the unanimous consent of learned writers The Scriptures saith Athanasius doe helpe us with the knowledge of every truth c. The first part which is only controversall is evident and cleere Anno. in 1 Cor. 10. §. 21. in 1 Reg. cap 5. v. 19. by these Scriptures Levit. 17.3.4 Deut. 12.5 Prov. 5.8 Hos 4.15 Matth. 7.15 2 Cor. 7.15 16 17. Rev. 18.4 Song 1.6 7. To this all sorts of Writers assent Zanch. on Phil. 3.2 The Authors of the Admonition pag. 27 c. Yea the Papists themselves Rhemists and Doway Translators ANSWER THe sinewes of this Argument are cut already in the first Section if ever it had any and therefore a few words may now suffice In this reason you take for granted that which is most false little lesse than blasphemie to wit that all Ministers in the Church of England be Antichristian For they are in respect of the substance of their office the Ministers of Jesus Christ set apart to preach the Gospel dispense the Sacraments and administer the Discipline of the Lord Christ and many of them the approved servants of Christ furnished with gifts from above sent forth by authoritie to preach the Gospel of God and dispense his Sacraments which they faithfully execute according to commission received from their Lord and Master the King of the Church who worketh by them and blesseth their labours if ever ordinary Ministers had cause to speake of and rejoyce in the blessing of God to the praise of his name But to let that passe Antichristian Teachers if I must speak in your owne language be of divers sorts 1. Such as be not called in every point according to your platforme or at least whose calling is in any respect maymed or defective though they be godly learned painfull every way fit set apart by authority and approved by the Church If Antichristian Teachers be taken in this sense true Beleevers living in societies with them are bound to heare the Word and partake in the Sacraments because they be the ordinances of the Lord Jesus who is present knocking at the doore of the heart and will come in and sup with them that open unto him So long as wee teach the same doctrine which the Apostles did we have the same povver and authority to Preach which they had Bâ—s Chrill 〈◊〉 part 3. p. â— Look what reasons soever can be alledged to prove that Christians ought to joyne together in holy communion the same will strongly convince that ordinarily or occasionally we must hold societie with such Ministers in the ordinances of piety and godlinesse And if this Ministerie be Antichristian divers if not most worthy Martyrs of Jesus Christ that have withstood Antichrist unto blood have stood under some ordinances in their first originall Antichristian or of men in some respects which did not overthrow though it might be some blemish unto their Ministerie 2. Such as be not rightly called by men because not rightly furnished with gifts or faithfully executing their place or teaching erroneous doctrines and traditions of men but yet set apart to an office which is of God and in communion of men professing the true Faith are called Antichristian Ministers And if it be taken in this sense the faithfull are bound in conscience to heare such if they live in their societies because they be the Ministers of Christ in a sort though they be not approved of him and doe his worke for the good of them that be heires of salvation But in so doing they doe not communicate with the Ministers of Antichrists apostasie but with the Lord Christ in his holy ordinance by such meanes as he hath appointed Hieron l. 1. Com in Eph. ad Galat. cap. 1. Hierome noteth that there are foure sorts who are employed in the businesses and affaires of Almighty God The first such as are sent neither of men nor by men but by Jesus Christ The second such as are sent of God but by man The third are such as are sent of man and not of God who are they that are ordained by favour of Men not rightly judging of the quality of them who are to serve in this calling Who yet are not simply denyed to be sent of God as if they had not commission from him but
of Gods Worship is one maine cause of great error and going astray In proofe of your proposition also you lavish somewhat when you say without limitation That all sorts and sects of Writers acknowledge it for a truth For the Papists generally hold the contrary as you know But this is a thing with you very usuall and common The later part of your reason which you smoothly passe over as a matter cleere and manifest and for proofe whereof you send us to our consciences in conscience we utterly denie and by the Word of God are assured of the contrary viz. That to joyne with our congregations in the ordinances of Grace is a Worship of God prescribed in his Word coÌ„mended of Christ and blessed of him to them that in conscience obey his Commandements The Worship there performed is that which the Lord hath instituted the doctrine of salvation is taught intirely the Sacraments rightly administred the sacrifice of Prayer offered unto God in the Mediation of Jesus Christ our onely high Priest who is present in the Congregations by the presence of his grace graciously inviteth men to come unto him and sweetly refresheth them that in truth of heart draw nigh unto him Thus God is worshiped in our assemblies and this worship is performed by such as are called of God and many approved of God in their Office and Ministerie That the Preaching and hearing of the Word is a Worship of God if the word Worship be taken largely to comprehend both all naturall worship and all means instituted and ordained whereby God is pleased to teach and instruct his people will easily be granted and such as denie it are justly to be taxed But that distinction of Worship must be admitted which is taught in Scripture and the more exactly tearmes are distinguished the more cleerely the fraud of the Adversary is discovered and the better able shall we be to confute them unlesse we had rather doe it with bigge words than weight of reason Onely here observe your partiality CAN. Necess of Sep. p. 72. Idem 222. For to shew the necessitie of Separation speaking of outward Worship used in the assemblies of England you say As for Preaching it is held to be no part of Divine Service and for proofe you quote Howson Serm. in Psal 118. pag. 18. CAN. 19 Syon plea 326. And Touching Preaching it is no Essentiall part of their Ministerie But against your Pistoler to prove that hearing is Worship CAN. Stay §. 3. p 17. you sing another note None to my knowledge saving a Popish Parasite or two Howson Serm. in Psal 118. pag. 78. ever held otherwise viz. but that hearing was Worship And they by men of better iudgements have been sharpely blamed for it But let us heare how you goe forward in this Argument CAN. Stay against Stray Sect. 3 pag. 17 18. The Church is an Idoll Church Hos 14 8.2 Cor. 6.14 Par. com in 1 Cor. 10 v. 14. and the Ministery an Idoll Ministerie And if be Church he an Holl the Ministerie aâ— Idolâ— who 〈◊〉 aâ— Idoll c. In the words then of the Prophet What have we to dâ—â— any more with Idolls What agreement hath the Temple of God with Idolls Little children keep your selves from Idolls Againe my dearely beloved 〈◊〉 from Idolatrie But how mente corpore faith Pareâ—s that is the worship and reverence of Idollâ— ANSWER The Assumption you leave naked to shift for it selfe because you finde it an easier matter to declaime against Idolatry and holding communion with Idolaters in their Idoll-service which no man ever doubted than to make proofe that to joyne in the ordinances of Religion in our assemblies is will-worship or superstition But if you prove little you have learned to accuse manfully An Idoll Church an Idoll Ministerie an Idoll-government who doth not tremble at such thunder cracks But first you should call to minde what you answere to your opposite CAN. Stay §. 3. p. 20 Arist de interpret l. 1. c. 6. prapter nostrâ—m â—ffirmare vel negare nihil sequitur CAN. Stay §. 7. p. 89. As for your bare saying it is farre from proofe To affirme or denie according to Aristorie is of no consequence Wee cannot take his bare saying de jure fide to be a rule of faith to us For our consciences are not like Samsons shoulders strong enough to beare it If it may suffice to accuse who shall be innocent And if the cause may be carried with clamors and out-cryes you are sure to winne the victory 2 Suppose our Church and Ministerie be an Idoll in some respect it is not a reall Idoll but Metaphoricall not absolute but in some consideration for the Word preached and the Sacraments Administred in our societies are the true Gospel and intire Sacraments of Jesus Christ which could not be if our Church and Ministery was absolutely an Idoll a meere nothing But to draw illimited conclusions from a reall Idoll to a Metaphoricall from an absolute Idoll to an Idoll in some consideration or respect is a new Logick never taught in the Schooles nor learned from the Scriptures The idle Zech. 11.16 17. Isa 56.10 Ezek. 34.1 2 4 5. They will not be able to doe the worke of Pastors where of they bear the name that is they will never be but Idolls T.C. repl 2. p. 1. p. 369 Jere. 5.1 2. Deut. 32.4 5. carelesse unprofitable coâ—etous proâ—d scandalous shepheard who filleth the roome but doth not the office of a shepheard is an Idoll shepheard But the faithfull were not to flie from them both in minde and body so as to have no communion with them in the Ordinances of God In the daies of the Prophet Iereâ—ie the men of Jerusaiem in generall both rich and poore were Idolls who had eyes but saw not eares but heard not But the Prophet had not learned in minde and body to fly from and have no societie with them in the worship of God The stiffe-necked and disobedient Israelites the uncircumcised in heart and life were they not Idols A people not a people Though those their vices must be shunned yet we have not found that Moses and the Prophets did fly from the ordinances of God because they must have nothing to doe with Idols Every thing that is emptie of goodnesse required and so doth faile or frustrate expectation may be called an Idoll a thing of no worth vaine and fruitlesse So an Hypocrite is an Idoll the husband wife father friends who are not faithfull doe not their office Job 13.4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nihist as Merar Montan. Tremel Iun. render it Iob 6.15 1 Cht. 16.26 Heb. Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hieron idola Psal 96.5 Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hieron vers ex Hebr. sculptile Eph. 5.3 Col. 3.5 with Hal. 1.16 may be called Idols Iob saith to his friends Ye are Physitians of no value because they had deceived him as David saith All the
disliked by godly and learned men so the generall given for direction in such cases be observed 3 We hold it unlawfull outwardly and but in appearance to joyne with Idolaters in their Idolatry Many words in this matter might well bee spared But wee desire to see your commandement why for every particular act that in a large sense is Idolatrous adjoyned to the true worship of God Calfeb against Mar. art 10. p. 185 186. we should forbeare our presence at the worship it selfe or be said to communicate in the sinne there committed For then no man might present himselfe with good conscience at any publike worship of GOD wherein any thing is done amisse for matter or manner which is in effect to say hee cannot bee present at any at all 4 To communicate in the ordinances of God with the Ministers of the Church of England is not to like approve or reverence the institutions of men in the exercises of religion nor to communicate with the Teacher in his sin nor in ought else that is amisse For the worship is of God both for matter and manner And put case the Minister bee disorderly chosen enter not as he ought be Symoniacall covetous froward corrupt idle scandalous doe the people partake in his sin in that they make use of his Ministery No Scripture teacheth any such thing no reason doth confirm it noe approved authors ever said it That which you alledge for proofe falleth utterly short It appertaineth to the vertue of truth Dav. determ 7. p. 40. that as a man sheweth himselfe by externall signes so he is indeed to be esteemed And such as frequent or repair unto unlawfull assemblies for the publike worship of God by their being there are to be reputed of the same religion or else dissemblers as it were to have no care of religion knowing God Dovvay annot in 4. King 5.19 p. 778. but not glorifying him as God But herein you have misrelated the Doway translators for their words are But in a Christian countrey where all beare the name of Christians especially where men are at controversie about the true Christian Religion all that frequent or repaire unto the same assemblies for publike service of God are to be reputed of the same religion or else dissemblers Bodily presence at false worship by which they shew a liking unto it is unlawfull To eate of meates sacrificed unto Idols in the Idoll Temple Your condemning the worship of God performed in our assemblies as pernicious idolatry vvherein is it a lesser sinne han the Popes prohibition of publike prayer and restraint of the Word and Sacraments throughout the Realm you can neither shevv us warrant for it an the Scriptures nor example of it in the Church of God You that so teach and censure stand guiltie of great impietie and they that hearken unto your persvvasions are partakers of your iniquity in some sort of the vvrong imaginations of Christians Aug. in Tract â—o 19. saith Quae omnia idola cordis sunt T. Caepl 1. art 3. pag. 4. is to communicate with Idolaters These things are evident and freely granted But the Assemblie met to call upon God in the mediation of Jesus Christ alone to heare the doctrine of salvation soundly and purely preached to receive the Sacrament rightly administred is not a false idolatrous assemblie they that repaire unto it be not Idolatrous â—â—false worshippers If you esteem of them as they shew themselves by out ward signes you must esteem them to be of the true religion and the true worshippers of God according to his will The ministerie in that assembly to be true sound and faithfull and of God of substance In this lieth the point of the controversie which you are contented to passe by in silence without any proofe at all But if any humane frailtie or infirmitie cleave to the ministerie or congregation in respect of doctrine manners lawes government or order which concernes not the life and soul but only the safety of the Church or wellfare of Religion In these a Christian doth not partake by his presence at the ordinances as the Scripture reason and the approved practice of the Saints in all ages of the Church do plentifully witnesse This is the judgement and practice of the Nonconformists and therefore they professe they praise God for this reformation so farre forth as it is agreeable to the Word of God they are glad the Word of God is preached that the Sacraments are administred that which is wanting they desire to be added that which is overmuch cut off But that a Christian must separate from the Word and Sacrament by reason of some superfluities or defects is no responsive conclusion that can be gathered soundly from their writings CAN Stay Sect. 5. pag. 66. In preaching of the truths of the Gospell by a false Minister an Idolatrous act is performed For Divine worship is not to be determined by a particular thing howbeit in it selfe good but as the essentiall parts belonging thereto whether they are persons or things are kept and observed The Church of Rome in Baptisme useth water and in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper gives bread and wine otherwhile too doth this cleare their administrations of Idolatry I think all men doe thinke that Vzziah committed an Idolatrous act 2 Chron. 26.16 when he invaded the Priests office But what made it so tooke he unlawfull incense no. Vsed he strange fire no. Offered hee prohibited Sacrifice or upon a wrong Altar No Where then lay the fault the Scripture telleth us Verse 18. it pertained not to him to burne incense unto the Lord but to the sons of Aaron To apply this if his act were Idolatrous because he wanted a calling howbeit observed many truths of the law By the same reason the Church acts of Artichristian Ministers are Idolatrous yea and as for the truths which they preach this cleares their acts no more from Idolatry than Vzziahs true Incense and the Altar quitted him from transgression ANSWER Your great words are of small force CAN. Stag. §. 3. p. 56. for should I speake my conscience it is your phrase They are words without weight of reason For still you presuppose the Ministerie of the Church of England to bee false and idolatrous which is to beg not to conclude the question But that being presupposed let us see how you goe forward In preaching the truth of the Gospell by a false Minister an Idolatrous act is performed you say But doth the Scripture say so Do you read it in the Law or in the Prophets in the Apostles or in the Evangelists The Scribes and Pharisees were false Ministers but it was not an Idolatrous worke in them to expound the Law of Moses or dispence other Church ordinances at that time commanded The popish Priests and Bishops are false Prophets but the simple administration of Baptisme by them is not an idolatrous act The Minister that is prophane and
his Church howsoever it may in some particular parts of the execution happily bee defective in some places The ordinarie ministerie of our Church is the ordinarie and perpetuall Ministerie given by Christ to his Church Id pag. 10. and such as the Princes of the earth are bound by Gods law to protect and maintaine And if there be any corruption in and about the same which they ought to abolish it is accidental or personall Page 8. and not essentiall to destroy the true nature of the ministerie of God And though it should be granted that our people stand under some kinde of observances and offices which in their own nature and first originall are in some kind Antichristian yet such a manner of standing cannot be said to overthrow though it somewhat staine the Ministery of Christ Thus is the substance of the answer throughout the booke CAN Neces of Separ p. 216 217. But how doe you confute or take away this distinction or weaken the force of this answer That you doe not once assay by Scripture or sound reason but you cry out of shifts and trifling and contradictions beggerly I sayâ—s or ifs base maintenance of the vilest abominations and justification of corruptions generally condemned by the same carnall and corrupt reasons which the Prelates use to doe That it serves to strengthen the hands of the wicked Id. pag. 220. grieve the hearts of the righteous and to discover his owne vile halting and double dealing The dumb dogs caterpillars and idle bellies never had a better proctor than this man to pleade for their unlawfull standing For he saith The Magistrate is bound to protect their Ministerie But how can wee believe him seeing the Nonconformists teach otherwise The rest of your answer is of the same marke which for shame I will not stand to confute You say any one may see by his worke Page 22â— that he meant not to tye his conscience short but would make a little bold with it or the present and so he might fetch over a sure blow upon us He cared not though with every stroke hee made wounds through the sides of his brethren But if you be able bring forth one sentence wherein the indifferent may see that hee hath made bold with his conscience or made the least wound in the side of any brother wherein he hath contradicted himselfe or the nonconformists justified any abomination pleaded for any corruption or spoken one word in defence of dumbe dogs caterpillars or idle bellies And if you cannot do this let the indifferent judge whether you have not offered violence to your conscience and made bold to wound your soule that you might defame the Ministerie of the Gospell and slander the gifts of God in his servants This practice is Antichristian borrowed from the vilest bondslaves of that man of sinne if not from Satan himselfe But I will not defend the Treatisers opinion nor trouble my selfe further to examine your answer to Master Br. That which I am to enquire into is How you prove all the Ministers of the Church of England in respect of their office and standing to be false Prophets or Antichristian If ought can be found to this purpose bare words excepted CAN Stay sect 12 pag. 119 120. If an unlawfull outward calling make an unlawfull Minister then it makes a false Prophet For according to the Scriptures it is all one thing only expressed in divers terms c. We know no meane betweene true Prophets and false for whosoever is not a true Prophet is a false Prophet Id. p. 121. and whosoever is a false Prophet cannot be a true Prophet of God He that is of God is a true Prophet he that is of the Devill is a false Prophet neither doth the deliverie and utterance of some truths make him a true Prophet for then the Devill should be a true Prophet who sometimes speakes the truth albeit to a sinister end Balaam was a very witch a wizard a false Prophet a true sorcerer famous or rather infamous for his Divellish magick which he practised among the wicked idolatrous nation So Attersol and many others so too as Junius Simpson Ferus Canutus and before them Origen Greg. Nazianzene Basil ANSWER As for Balaam whether he were a Witch Wizard or Magician it is not materiall to the point in hand If the Treatiser did put that instance amisse it will not follow that you have truly proved the Ministers of the Church of England to be false Prophets or soundly confuted what hee answered for himselfe And if the Treatisers friends be of your disposition you may soone heare from them that you have answered nothing for you have brought the sayings and opinions of men but reason out of the Scripture you have alledged none to prove him simply a Witch and a false Prophet And if the opinions and sayings of men will serve the turne there bee some that have thought Balaam to be a Prophet of God Tertul. cont Marc. lib. 4. Numb 22.19 2â— 7 Iosh 13.22 Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Trem. Iun Divinum id est qui divinat and that for reasons not to be disregarded Tertullian amongst others thought Balaam to be a true Prophet and such a Prophet as should be numbred among the servants of God because he professeth that he would aske counsell of God and that he would speake nothing but what God should say unto him And he doth not only say so but indeed he propoundeth those things which he had received of God and which consent with truth and pietie In Scripture he is called a Diviner which word is sometimes used in a good sense to note one that doth prophesie true things or wisely and truly divine things to come Prov. 16.10 Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In. Sagac Pisc Divinatio i.e. quasi divinaâ—io hoc est sogatitas qualis est divinantium Mercer in Prov. 16.10 Isaia 3.3 Iun. Sagacem Pisc Heb. Divinatorem sed hic accipitur in bonam parâ—em Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Conjectorem Hieron ariolum Dovvay Southsayer Moller 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est quâ—d hoc loco in bonampartem accipitur Car. in Prov. 16.10 quidem frequentissimè in Scriptura usu patur in malam partem pro his qui artibus Diaboâ—iâ—is abdita rimantur sed aliquando etiam ut Isa 13. Ezek. 13.6 usurpatur in bonam partem pro his qui aliquid aâ—cani proponunt quod legitimè vel revelatione divinâ vel solerti mvestigatione assequuti sunt Divination or a wise sentence is in the lips of Kings The Judge and the Prophet the Diviner and the old Man The Prophets divine for silver Mic. 3.11 Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Num. 27.7 Sept. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Vulg. precium divinationis 2 Per. 2.15 Numb 23.27 See Rainold censur praelect 201 B. Hieron alibi nullam illustriorem de adventâ—â— Domini extare prophetiam dicit sci
quam Bileami Qui inter quaestiones Christianorum hanc fuisse docet cur Balaam tam manifesta de Christo praedixisset Quem ipse ad Iob 32. de cognitione Abrahan ifuâ—sse docet D. Heins exâ—rcit sacr in Mat. 2. which is spoken of the Prophets in Judah Neverthelesse seeing he is called a Diviner as they are said to take divinations in their hands scil the wages of iniquitie and as there is no divination against Israel that is magicall incantations cannot availe against Jsrael whom God doth protect with his presence I doe rather subscribe to them who conceive that he was a Witch or Wizard than the prophet of God Neither doth the deliverie and utterance of some truth make a true prophet for the Heathen Witches and Wizards nay the Divel himselfe hath spoken some truth that he might the better deceive But as the possession of all supernaturall truth necessarie to salvation is proper to the Church so to preach the whole counsell of God unto his people is the speciall badge of a true Prophet and the fruit whereby hee is knowne Marke this well for to use your owne phrase it sheweth all your answer to be coecum insomnium a vain dream and nothing else It is the note of a false Prophet to run when God doth not send him But can it be shewed that ever Minister did teach the whole counsell of God unto his flocke â—er 14.14 23.21 27.15 Vnreasonabl of separation p. 6. Though it be no new thing that the Ministers of Antichrist should in divers things bring the truth with them yet this is a new thing and never heard of before That the Ministers of Antichrist should teach the whole truth of Iesus Christ for the substance therof That they should oppose directly and zealously against the maine and fundamentall doctrines of Antichrist c. 〈◊〉 42.19 who was not sent of God The places cited make it evident that they whom God did not send they taught false things in his name as they run when he sent them not so they prophesied when he spake not unto them In some cases it is true the Church for a time may bee without Ministers as when the pastor is taken away by death or the Church dispersed by persecution or the people negligent to procure teachers and the like But ordinarily the Church is not destitute of true Ministers nor is there a true ministerie to be found but in the Church And therefore seeing the societie professing the true faith intirely and holding the communion of Saints is the true Church the Ministers teaching sound doctrine in those societies and maintaining the unitie of the Spirit must of necessitie be true Ministers But every unlawfull Minister say you is a false Prophet for these two are all one This is spoken ambiguously and must be distinguished before any direct judgement can bee passed upon it What then doe you understand by unlawfull Minister Is he an unlawfull Minister who is not approved of God designed by Christ qualified as he ought chosen orderly but out of favour partialitie faction or schisme Or is he an unlawfull Minister who teacheth corruptly seeketh not that which was lost bindeth not up that which was broken puts not the weake into his bosome grieveth the godly strengtheneth the hands of the wicked and walketh prophanely Is he an unlawfull Minister who being a secret heretike CAN Necess of Separation page 237. If one bee ordained a Pastor according to Christs institution hee hath certainly lawfull ministerie howsoever things shall afterward fall out yeâ— though hee should sing Masse and Mattens as hee speaketh But hee asketh if any that is in his wits will say so yes and prove it also and if hee himselfe had not wanted some wit in this point he would not thus have confounded one thing so absurâ—ly with another for as a person may bee a servant or subject truly and fully and yet doe afterwards the actions of thieves rebels traitors so a man may take a true Ministerie by ordination and yet in his life and doctrine doe wickedly and â—â—serve justly to be deposed is chosen and ordained by the communitie where hee is to administer without due tryall and examination or being rashly and unadvisedly elected doth after neglect his dutie altogether teach perverse things administer coruptly sing Masse and Mattens If none of these be unlawfull Ministers in your esteeme it will be no losse to us if we grant the proposition for we may boldly affirme if you search our Ministerie with a candle and lanthorn it will bee found true and of God If you take a false prophet and unlawfull Minister in that strict sense as to exclude all the former there is not one Minister a member of our Church that can be a false Prophet If you take all these for unlawfull ministers then all unlawfull Ministers are not false prophets in your account Or else it is lawfull to hold communion with some false prophets which you peremptorily would seeme to deny The want of an outward calling you say makes a man an unlawfull minister and so you might say Ier. 2.8 Ter. de praescript advers Haeret. c. 36. Vnde autem extranâ—i inimici Apostoâ—iâ— haeretici nisiâ—ex diversitate doctrinae quam unusquisque de suo arbitrio adversus Apostolos aut protulit aut recepit doth the want of right qualification and conscionable discharge of his duty for God hath threatned both the one and the other that they shall be no priests unto him both the one and the other are idols in phrase of Scripture But he can not be a minister in a societie of Christians professing the true and intire faith and enjoying the blessing of the Sacraments who is utterly destitute of an outward calling In some Churches the calling is more compleat and exact than in others and at some times things have beene more orderly handled than at others but in all Churches there is an outward calling and effectuall to the truth of the ministerie Long since it was objected against the Nonconformists that they say the Gospell is not truly preached in England because there is no lawfull calling to the ministerie whereunto they have returned this answer We do not say that there is no lawfull or no ordinarie calling in England for we doe not deny but that he may be lawfully called which is not ordinarily as Luther Melancthon Zuinglius and there bee places in England where the Ministers are called by their parishes in such sort as the examples of Scripture doe shew to have been done before the Eldership and government of the Church was established T.C. repl 1. answ to the exhor p. 3. I know not any that saith the Gospell is not truly preached in England and by those that are not of the same judgement that the admonition to the Parliament is of CAN. Necess of Separ pag. 55. The Ministery of England as it is established by law doth
blessing upon the labour of his servants if any other Church under Heaven In the second signification the power of the keyes for substance is in our Church but the manner of ordering and administration of them is corrupt and faultie But this power of the keyes is not of absolute necessitie to the being of the Church but to the well-being onely Here is a fit place to answer your Question Whether to hide from the people the knowledge of all the maine truths which concerne the outward regiment of Christs visible church make a false Prophet It would be knowne what you call maine truths which concerne the outward regiment of Christs visible Church The power of government is proper and communicated Proper that which Christ hath reserved peculiar to himselfe and is executed according to his infinite wisdome by the secret hand of his divine power and the effectuall worke of his holy Spirit making the word of exhortation and reproofe comfort and instruction to some the savour of life unto life whence followeth effectuall answering to their calling rejoycing comfort and growing up to perfection Not to mention further how he succoureth the godly bestoweth some gifts though not such as accompany Salvation upon the wicked bridleth curbeth and confoundeth his enemies His communicated Government is that which being limited within the compasse of certaine Lawes and Canons of his holy Word he hath committed to be exercised and executed in and by Societies according to his appointment The chiefe and principall meanes Christ useth here is the preaching of his Word whereby he saveth his people and conquereth his enemies The discipline is as a Chariot for the Word to ride upon and to keepe other ordinances from contempt but it is not the most ordinary or mighty meanes of Christs government or administration of his Kingdome These things being thus The Ministers of the Gospell are to teach the people the maine grounds and chiefe heads of Christian Religion even all things necessary to salvation in respect of faith and manners otherwise they stand guilty of the bloud of soules They are to teach them also what the Lord hath instituted for the well-ordering of his house but in season order and as they are able to beare it It is not for men to set up the roofe before they have laid the foundation Experience for many yeares hath taught us that divers who have much busied themselves in the doctrine of Church-government have been unable to make f Some deny the use of excoÌ„munication among the Jewes Bils perpet Ch. gov c. 4. The Scribes and Pharises you will say did in Christs time excommunicate and thrust out such as they thought offenders out of their Synagogues But the Pharises never learned that out of Moses A separation of the Leaper from the company of men and of uncleane for comming neere holy places or things Moses prescribeth but not excommunication that I remember c. Aliens were not admitted to be of the number of the Lords people and any uncleannesse of the flesh did separate for a season the Jewes themselves from approaching neere to the Congregation or Tabernacle of God but neither of these is excommunication c. So in the use of excommunication in the Christian Church c. and many such like use of that which they have learned from others If I should bring your selfe for instance who have received many good truths from the writings of the Nonconformists but miserably pervert them to your owne hurt the disturbance of Gods Church scandall of the Gospel and the strengthning of such as are turned aside into dangerous errours I should not much misse the marke and you have more cause to take heed than to be offended Also godly men who follow the truth in love may be of different minds in these things and for men to hide that from the people whereof they are not perswaded that it is the truth of God is not the note of a false Prophet Moreover Those things which you call maine truths concerning the externall government of Christs visible Church may justly be questioned whether they be truths at all If I may conjecture by your writings the maine truths you intend are such as these That power of Church-government is absolutely necessary to the being of a Church That all stinted or set-formes of prayer or Liturgie are forged or devised worship That there is no lawfull Minister who is not chosen called or ordained by that particular Congregation where he is to administer That the Minister of one congregation may performe no ministeriall act in another That the power of Government is in the communitie of the faithfull and from them derived unto the Pastours Teachers or Elders c. These and the like are the maine truths in your esteeme which I conceive have no bottoming in the holy Scripture And if the Nonconformists or some other should aske of you this Question whether to teach such points as maine truths necessary to salvation and to condemne all Churches who conforme not to your platforme as false and Antichristian and their worship as false and idolatrous and whether to wrest and abuse Scriptures and pervert Authors to that purpose make you not a false Prophet consider advisedly what ound and satisfying answer you could returne SECT III. BEfore â—e proceed to another point Can. Neces of Separat p. 159 160. we may here frame this argument If the professors of the Gospell in England have not among them a true Church-government but are under that which came from the great Antichrist then are they bound to set up the ordinance of God and practice it no withstanding the Magistrate doe forbid the said practice But the professors of the Gospell in England have not among their a true Church-government but are under c. Therefore they are bound to set up the ordinance of God and to practice it notwithstanding the Magistrate doth forbid the said practice These are both their owne positions and so soundly proved that no man living is able to confute theus ANSVVER IF your meaning be as the ordinary signification of the words import it is not to the purpose for it is one thing in our owne persons to practice according to the ordinance of Christ another to separate from that societie which doth not practice in all things according to the institution of our Saviour But you give cause to thinke that by these words erecting this power and exercising the same among them you meane that they are to separate and draw themselves into such a societie where they may exercise that power For thus you write I doe not meane Can. Neces of Separat pag. 155. that any private person should meddle with the affaires of the Realme but that every one in his owne person doe place himselfe about the throne of God leaving the abuses of the publique Stateâ— to be reformed by such as have a calling thereto And if this be your minde in