Selected quad for the lemma: england_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
england_n	ambassador_n	king_n	pope_n	4,544	5	7.1893	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A54912	Occasionall discourses 1. Of worship and prayer to angells and saints. 2. Of purgatorie. 3. Of the Popes supremacie. 4. Of the succession of the Church. Had with Doctor Cosens, by word of mouth, or by writing from him. By Thomas Carre confessour of the English nunnerie at Paris. As also, An answer to a libell written by the said Doctor Cosens against the great Generall councell of Lateran under Innocentius the third, in the yeere of our Lord 1215. By Thomas Vane Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge.	Carre, Thomas, 1599-1674.; Vane, Thomas, fl. 1652. Answer to a libell written by D. Cosens against the great Generall councell of Laterane under Pope Innocent the Third. aut	1646 (1646)	Wing P2272; ESTC R220529	96,496	286

at this day as the Africans in Siricius who then sate 3. Why it should not retayne vs without all he sitation or staggerring as it did Saint Augustine in the bosome of the CATHOLIKE CHVRCH Et hic murus aheneus esto AN ANSVVER TO A LIBELL WRITTEN BY D. COSENS AGAINST THE GREAT Generall Councell of Laterane under Pope Innocent the third Wherein the many and great errors of the said D. Cosens are manifested to the world By THOMAS VANE Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge 2. Tim. 3.13 But euill men and seducers shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued Printed at PARIS Anno Dom. 1646. With Permission Approbation TO THE MOST NOBLE AND MOST ACCOMPLISHED Gentleman Sr KENELME DIGBY KNIGHT c. SIR I doe not dedicate this crauing your protection thereof against calumny and censure the greatest Princes I know cannot doe it yea their owne persons are not censure-proofe against the meanest varlets Nor hereby to engage you to any fauour or defence thereof beyond the direction of your owne iudgment your free minde I know disdaynes to stoope to such a lure and mine to cast it out Let the booke suffer its owne fate for so it will hee that finds fault with it let him tell mee so and if I cannot defend it I will acknowledge the error Nor to take occasion to flatter you you are aboue it and impossible attempts vanish euen in the vndertaking Nor yet to pay you your due prayse I am below it and Fame her selfe dischargeth that debt borrowing the tongues of all men for her helpe But to testifie the honour I beare you for your transcendent worth in your selfe and the gratitude for your great fauours to mee It wants proportion I confesse to either which proceeds from my pouerty of materialls but as small pictures compar'd with greater tables so this being all I haue to offer may present mee as liuely though not so largely SIR Your most humble and obliged seruant THO. VANE TO THE READER READER Doctor Cosens since his coming into these parts hath writtē diuers papers against the Catholique doctrine and beliefe and hath shewed them or deliuered the substance of thē in discourse to diuers persons thereby to draw them or keepe them from the Catholique Communion who not hauing ability or leisure to examine their truth I beleeue thought better of them than they deserued These papers of his came afterwards into the hands of seuerall Catholiques and each one answered that which hee hapned on or which was if any was more particularly addressed to him which is the reason that hee hath more answerers than one though to them all any one was more than enough Amongst his papers this against the fowrth Councell of Lateran came to my hands to which I soone after returned a briefe answer and so the matter rested but hearing since that hee and some that thinke well of him haue triumphed in these his workes as though hee had gayned great victories that I might vndeceiue them for so much as I vndertooke if at least they will suffer it and to informe all others that please to reade I thought good à little to enlarge my former answer and to print it with Mr. Carres And others there are at least one other that I know who if hee thought fit to print what hee hath written in answer to Doctor Cosens could perhaps discouer more corruptions of his than we haue done But heere are more than enough to warrant vs to say of him as a 1. kings 25.25 Abigal said of Nabal for by his deeds he makes true the significatiō of his name and that they that rely on him will bee like those that leane on a broken reedy staffe which will run into their hands and wound insteed of supporting them D. C. OF THE GREAT GENErall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third said to bee Maximum celeberrimum Concilium Anno Domini 1215. MAXIMVM for the number of eight hundred Priors and Abbots who had no voyces in Councells but by priuiledge from the Pope was as great againe as the number of the Bishops Celeberrimum for it was euery where famous for this one thing of speciall note in it that so many men met together to no purpose met but did nothing Therfore of this so Great and so famous a Councell these be the words of Platina who was the Popes owne Secretary in vita Innocent III. Venere multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit quòd Pisani Genuenses maritimo Cisalpini terrestri bello interse certarent Eò itaque proficiscens tollendae discordiae causa Pontifex Perusii moritur And to the same purpose are the words of Matth. Paris in Historia minori who liued in the same time when this Councell was called together Concilium illud Generale quod more papali grandia prima fronte prae se tulit in risum scomma desiit quo Archiepiscopos Episcopos Abbates Decanos Archidiaconos omnesque adid Concilium accedentes ludificatus est For after the Pope was gone to appease the tumults betweene the Genuenses and them of Pisa there was nothing done Et cum nihil geri in tanto negotio cernerent redeundi ad su a cupidi veniam sigillatim petierunt Quibus Papa non concessit antequam sibi grandem pecuniam promisissent quam a mercatoribus Romanis prius accipere mutuò Papaeque soluere coacti sunt antequam discedere Roma potuissent Papa iam accepta pecunia quaestu osum Concilium dissoluit gratis tot usque Clerus abiit tristis ANSWER It was called Maximum you say for the number of eight hundred Priors and Abbots who had no voyce in Councell but by priuiledge from the Pope was as great againe as the number of the Bishops T is true that it was iustly called maximum partly for this reason though not for this only for the number of voyces not only of Bishops who haue their suffrages by common right but euen of Abbots and Priors who haue theirs by the Popes grant doth mainly contribute to the greatnesse of a Coūcell Yet suppose the greatnesse of this Councell be to be measured by the nūber of Bishops only how many can there be named greater but very few in the world and therfore it may well be called Maximum And Celeberrimum also not that so many met together but did nothing as you say but because there were present the Pope in person two Patriarchs in person and the other two by their Legats the Greeke and Roman Emperours by their Legats the Ambassadours of the kings of France Spaine England Hierusalem and Cyprus with others as I shall proue anon But if to be famous for doing nothing and for being to no purpose deserue the title of Celeberrimum these goodly obiections when they are well knowne will iustly beare that title on their brow You further tell vs that Platina whose words you cite was the

their calling Moreouer your reason to proue that the canons of this Councell of Lateran were not generally receiued to wit because they were not receiued in England if it were true yet it is inconsequent and your deceipt or mistake lyeth in the indistinction of the word Canons whereof some be of faith some of manners and discipline Now that a Councell be accounted to be generally receiued it is not required that the Canons of discipline and practise be receiued in all kingdomes but it is sufficient that the Canons concerning matters of faith be generally receiued to stile the reception generall and the Councell generall for so much as the generality of reception can contribute to the title of its being generall As for example the kingdome of France doth not receiue the decrees of the Councell of Trent concerning gouernment but of faith it doth as doe all other Catholique Countries for which reason euen this kingdome which denies to receiue the Councell of Trent in matters of gouernment doth notwithstanding acknowledge it generall By which it appeares that you are not so well versed in Generall Councells and their reception as to know distinctly the meaning of the words according to their Catholique vse Now there is no doubt that the kingdome of England did receiue this Councell for the matters of faith otherwise it would haue beene noted hereticall as now it is and for it s not receiuing the Canons of discipline and gouernment you proue not but by your owne bare word which I may most iustly deny yet I haue other proofes against you But first I will take notice of your mistake if not vnfaithfullnesse in your description of the 46. pretended Canon as you call it contrary to which you say subsidies haue beene payd to the king inconsulto Pontifice as if that Canon had sayd that no subsidies at all should be payd to the king but by the aduice of the Pope whereas the Canon speakes only of the subsidies of the Clergy as requiring the Popes aduice As for the practise of England contrary to these three Canons you mention if it be true which I doe not belieue because I haue heard good lawyers in England say the contrary in one which concernes prescription yet it doth not proue that these Canons were not receiued for these crossings of the Canons may happen either through indulgence of the Pope granted to the kings or the kings vsurpation contrary to the Canōs receiued or in your instāce of prescription through the headstrong impiety of the people who will not obserue the good lawes they receiue being contrary to their euill customes If England had obserued all the Canōs they haue heeretofore receiued when they were as wise as learned as pious as iudicious at the least as now they are you and I I belieue should not haue beene at this bay that now we are Now contrary to your proofelesse assertion I proue that the Canons of this Councell were receiued in England as well those of manners as of faith first by the testimony of Linwood and the municipall lawes of the land as they are affirmed by Franciscus à sancta Clara in his article of transubstantiation Secōdly by the Councell of Oxford before cited held by the then Arch-Bishop of Canterbury but seuen yeeres after this of Lateran which was the very first Councell in the world that was held after this where it is sayd a Binij tom 7. part 2. pag. 233. That all things may be concluded wich a good end wee enioyne that the Lateran Councell celebrated vnder Pope Innocent of holy memory in the paying of tithes and in the other chapters be obserued By which it appeares how much you are deceiued in saying that in England the Canons of this Councell were not receiued as you also are in saying C. Lastly I belieue no good story can be shewed to confirme the pretended title of this Councell that the Patriarch of Ierusalem and Constantinople were present at it and 70. Metropolitans besides though that will not make it generall neither for want of the two other Patriarchs of Antioche and Alexandria who are not mentioned to haue beene among them Howsoeuer nihil ibi actum quod quidem constet and so was it neither any Generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all ANSWER What you belieue imports not for I know you belieue many heresies and errors amongst which errors this is one That no good story can be shewed that the Patriarchs of Ierusalem and Constantinople were present at this Councell c. One is sayd to be present either in person or by deputy that those two Patriarchs which you first mention were there in person is affirmed by Platina Paris and Vrspergensis and that the other two were there by their deputies with aboue 70. Metropolitanes besides a very great number of Archbishops Bishops Abbots and Priors some in person and some by Proxy and with these the Legats and deputies of the two Emperours of all or almost all the Kings Princes citties and other places of the Christian world is recorded by Paris and Vrspergensis And I suppose you will not deny any of them to be good historians especially Paris and Platina whom you called in in the beginning of this your worke as witnesses as you thought against the Canons of this Councell a Matth. Paris hist mai p. 188. i.e. Paris and Vrspergēsis speake almost in the same words b Vrspergens Chronic p. 320. thus Anno ab Incarnatione Verbi 1215. celebrataest sancta vniuersalis Synodus Romae in Ecclesia Saluatoris quae Constantiniana vocatur mense Nouembri praesidente Domino Innocentio Papa tertio Pontificatus eius anno 18. in quo fuerunt Episcopi 412. inter quos extiterunt de praecipuis Patriarchis duo videlicet Constant Hierosol Antiochenus autem graui languore detentus venire non potuit sed mifit pro se Vicarium Anthedarensem Episcopum Alexandrinus vero sub Saracenorum dominio constitutus fecit quod potuit mittens prose Diaconum suum Germanum Primates autem Metropolitani 71. Caeterùm Abbates Priores vltra octingentos Archiepiscoporum vero Episcoporum Abbatum Priorum Capitulorum absentium Procuratorum non fuit certus numerus comprehensus Legatorum vero Regis Siciliae in Romanorum Imperatorem electi Imperatoris Constantinopolitani Regis Franciae Regis Angliae Regis Vngariae Regis Hierosolymitani Regis Cypri Regis Arragoniae necnon aliorum Principum Magnatum ciuitatum aliorumque locorum ingēs fuit multitudo Heere is your erroneous beliefe plainly and amply confuted I wonder what histories you haue read concerning this Councell that these should escape you especially Paris the Popes deare friend and Platina the Popes owne Secretary I haue therfore reason to belieue that you tooke vp these obiections vpon trust and of men that were not faithfull who haue greatly deceiued you And therfore the title of this Councell which you againe so

scornefully and boldly call pret●nded shall be really accounted Generall by the best and noblest part of the world the Catholique Church when all other pretended Churches Councells and their Canons their Bishops Deanes and Chapters shall haue no being nor memory but of dishonour You further say according to your manner without proofe that this Councell vas not Generall for want of the personall presence of two of the Patriarchs wherein you are much mistaken for otherwise the first fower commonly stiled Generall and for such acknowledged by very many Protestants cannot be truly such because the Chiefe Patriarch the Bishop of Rome was not present in any of them but by his Legats Vnlesse you will say that though two may not be absent yet one may especially when that one is the Pope a man whō you I know can very well spare not only out of the Councell but out of the world And yet I wonder that you that haue had the fortune to be the pretended Deane of S. Peters Borough and the pretended Master of S. Peters house should yet be such an enemy to S. Peters chayre But if you desire to know what makes a Councell generall and what are the insufficiencies thereof which you ought to haue expressed and proued before you had shot your hasty bolt of condemnation against this Councell reade Turrecremata and Canus vpon this subiect You at last conclude thus Howsoeuer nihil ibi actum quod quidem constet and so was it neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all Wherein first your proposition is false and hath no authority that I know of but the worst in the world your owne Yet you set it downe in Latin as if they were the words of some author but neither expresse the place nor so much as his name and therfore I take it for yours and reiect it Secondly if it were true that nothing as done there yet your inference from thence is incōsequent to wit that therfore it was neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all concerning the nullities of a Councell or of the generality therof I need say no more than I haue done seeing it rests on you to proue that doing nothing is one And for your affirmation that nothing was done I haue fully disproued it through this whole discourse I will therfore only adde the testimony of Matth. Paris who though he were no friend to this Pope as I haue shewed before yet speaking of this Councell in the place aboue cited saith thus His omnibus congregatis in suo loco praefato iuxta morem Conciliorum Generalium in suis ordinibus singulis collocatis facto prius ab ipso Papa exhortationis sermone recitata sunt in pleno Concilio capitula 60. Wherein is a mistake in the figure it should be 70. quae aliis placabilia aliis videbantur onerosa Tandem de negotio Crucifixi subiectione terrae sanctae verbum praedicationis exorsus subiunxit dicens Ad haec ne quid in negotio Iesu Christi de contingentibus omittatatur volumus mandamus c. And so repeats at large the substance of the Decree of the Expedition for the recouery of the Holy land So that it is manifest by this and that which hath beene sayd before that there were many things done in this Councell yea all that are affirmed to bee And it is called a Councell and a generall Councell by Vrspergensis Paris Platina Grantzius Nauclerus Beluacēsis and all that I can finde that haue any way written therof except your vncontrowlable selfe Besides it hath the allowance of the Holy Catholique Church the awfull spouse of Christ more true more wise more vigilant and infinitly more reuerend then all the sects Synagogues of Schismatiques Heretiques therfore their obiectiōs against her whom they ought to belieue and reuerence aboue all things on the earth especially when they are propounded peremptorily as these are are fitter to be reiected than to be answered I conclude with the words of Surius a Nemo sanae mentis ambigere potest hanc quae sequitur Synodum Lateranensem cum primis insignem vere oecumenicam fuisse quippe in qua de negotiis religionis summa Latinae Graecae Ecclesiae concordiâ tractatum est cuique interfuere Patriarcha Constantinopolitanus Hierosolymitanus Archiepiscopi tum Lani tum Graeci 70. Episcopi 412. Abbates Priores plus 800. simul omnes Praelati 1215. aut eo plures Nec defuere Legati Graeci Romani Imperatoris Regum Hierusalem Galliae Hispaniae Angliae aliorum Quodsi verò ea cuiquam propterea minus ponderis habere videatur quod recentior sit ille certè Christum mendacem facere velle videtur qui perennem praesentiam suam promisit Ecclesiae suae Spiritum sanctum suum Spiritum veritatis qui cum illa maneat in aeternum Manet sua semper Catholicae Ecclesiae authoritas quam quisquis contemnere ausus est non ille efficit vt ea minor sit sed se dignum reddit qui eius pondere penitus opprimatur No man well in his wits can doubt that this Councell of Lateran was very famous and truly generall because therein were handled the matters of Religiō with very great agreement of the Greeke and Latine Churches wherin were present the Patriarch of Constantinople and Ierusalem and 70. Archbishops Greeke and Latin Bishops 412. Abbots and Priors aboue 800. all the Prelats together were one thousand two hundred and fifteene or more Neither were there absent the Ambassadours of the Greeke and Roman Emperours of the kings of Ierusalem France Spayne England and others But if this Councell seeme to any to haue lesse weight because it is later hee truly seemes to be willing to make Christ a lyar who hath promised his perpetuall presence to his Church and his Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth which remayneth with her for euer The authority of the Catholique Church doth alwayes abide here which who soeuer presumes to despise he doth not lessen her but renders himselfe worthy to be crusshed to pieces with her weight And now insteed of your prouing the Catholique writers lyars and forgers and the Catholique Church credulous negligent and ignorant which you endeauoured you haue proued your selfe vnwise vnlearned and audacious and I belieue will loose all credit and reputation of integrity or capacity in the iudgement of all prudent men of what religion soeuer they be that shall reade these your vnworthy workes But suppose the thing it selfe were true that you haue laboured for abstracting the authority to the contrary to wit that there had beene no Canons made in this Councell yea suppose there had neuer beene any such thing as this Councell what is it to your purpose What article of our Catholique Faith is therby cancelled how is your inuisible Church of England or your Chappell in France where God hath his Church defended

excommunication by the Bishops and after a yeeres contempt of making satisfaction and then there is added this reseruation also Saluo iure Domini principalis c. sauing the right of the principall Lord so that he giue no obstacle hereunto nor oppose any imp●diment Now this power of the Pope whatsoeuer it be is farre from that which your confused words insinuate which to your weaker readers I suppose will sound as if the Pope had power to absolue the subiects of any kings from their fidelity and dispose of their kingdomes when to whom and for what cause so euer they pleas'd which is nothing so Yet if this power of the Popes were so vast as you belieue it or would haue others to belieue it why should it trouble you And why should you be more tender of the interest of Princes than they themselues and all their courts about them who either receiued this Canon immediatly from the Councell as I haue sayd and proued or else suffered it to be coseningly thrust vpon them as you haue sayd but not proued And I wonder that you a Protestant should fasten vpon this decree of deposing of Princes by the Pope to make the decrees of this Councell odious and incredible when as it is well knowne that the Popes in sixteene hundred yeeres haue not deposed so many as Protestants in one hundred for almost whersoere the gangrene of that heresy hath spread it selfe they haue either actually deposed and expelled their Princes as in Swede Denmarke Scotland Netherlands Geneua or diuers times attēpted by violence to doe it as in France often in Bohemia in Poland and now it is feared in England And if you say that though these Puritane Protestants haue both taught and done these things yet the true Protestant of the Church of England he neuer taught such doctrine he cānot thinke such a thought without horror surely wee haue nothing but your bare and often broken word for our security For what experience hath the king or his few predecessors of your religion had that in case they should haue depriued you of your desires as they denyed to graunt the desires of the Puritanes if they should haue turned you out of your Bishoppricks and Deaneries taken from you the Church vsurped Liuings set vp a religion that would not haue endured wiuing preachers what experience haue they had that in these or the like cases your Protestants of the Church of England would not attempt their destruction and if they were able lay the axe on their necks as your Supreme Gouuernour of your Church of England Queene Elizabeth and her instruments did on the necke of the renowned Mary Queene of Scotland and Dowager of France Can you then thinke much that the Pope a person of an other quality and more dis-interessed than the subiects of Princes should haue some kinde of power by all conuenient wayes to reduce and correct hereticall Princes Especially seeing the Emperours Kings and Princes gaue their votes vnto this Decree and were for so much as concerned themselues the makers thereof But you will not belieue that this decree was made in the Councell but thinke that you haue proued the contrary My aduice then is that you acquaint the Kings and Princes on this side the seas with this strange cheat that is put vpon them it is like to be a matter of high acceptation to them of great reproach to their vnfaithfull seruants that would not discouer that which you haue done and of great prayse and preferment to your selfe You further obiect against the Act of the expedition for the recouery of the Holy Land which you call the 71. Canon but no body else doth so that I know because it runnes say you in a Popes stile not in the stile of à Councell By which I perceiue that though you are one of the Court yet you are none of the Councell for you are not skild in the stiles of Popes and Councells Otherwise you would haue knowne that it is the manner in those Councells where the Pope himselfe is present to decree things in his name with this addition sacro approbante Concilio as in the Councell of Florence inlueris vnionis euen as Acts of Parliament of England are made in the kings name with the aduice or consent of the two houses You say moreouer that Card. Bella mine and Eudaemon Cidonius doe confesse out of Platina that there was no such decree made Your Eudaemon Cidonius I cannot meet with heere nor is it much materiall for that answer which serues your quotation of Bell will serue him also seeing as you say it is both their confessions out of Platina For the finding of your citatiōs out of Bell you vse vs very ill giuing vs no direction but a booke of perhaps twenty leaues in folio to finde out twēty words which whē wee haue found to recōpence our paynes we finde your mistake and falshood For Bellarm. doth not speake directly of the particular chapter of the expedition whether that were made in the Councell or no but of the buisinesse of the Holy Warre in generall de hoc articulo cū multa disputata fuissent nihil certi definiri potuit and there is a difference sure betwixt nihil certi and nihil omnino nothing certaine and nothing at all as you would haue it And I suppose this nihil certi is meant in regard of the further and more particular managing of the warre from which they were hindred by the present warre in Christēdome and which is no denyall of the Decree of the expedition which consists of a few generall heads concerning the raysing of contributions to this great worke from the clergy wherein the Pope himselfe gaue a great example of punishments on those that hindred it and indulgence to them that aduanced it with the like All which though they were vndoubtedly decreed yet it may be sayd with Bell out of Platina that after much disputation there was nothing certaine defined in regard of the neerer and more particular articles for the managing of the warre being put frō it by the present warre in Christendo me Yea it might be sayd nihil certi in regard of this decree it selfe not of the letter and intention of it but of the wars at home yea rather the contrary was certaine namely that it was not executed And if Platina or Bellarmine out of him had intended to exclude this Decree of the expedition which is all that wee affirme to be done in that kinde why did they expresse it with these reseruations of apertè and certi and not say directly and without limitation nihil as you doe which had beene more plaine and agreeable to the grauity of those writers Therfore by these reseruations they must needs intend some thing which as I conceiue is that which I haue expressed Howsoeuer certaine wee are that this Decree was made in the Councell by all that proofe whereby wee haue proued the whole Councell