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england_n ambassador_n king_n peace_n 4,428 5 6.4303 4 true
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A60564 The Quaker disarm'd, or, A true relation of a late publick dispute held at Cambridge by three eminent Quakers against one scholar of Cambridge ; with a letter in defence of the ministry and against lay-preachers ; also several quæries proposed to the Quakers to be answered if they can. Smith, Thomas, 1623 or 4-1661.; Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723.; Allen, William, d. 1686.; Fox, George, 1624-1691. 1659 (1659) Wing S4227; ESTC R18877 22,488 24

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He answered That none of them were his followers for he came alone and brought not one with him That it was their meeting-House and therefore more likely to be their followers So after S. at the Quakers request had entreated the people to be quiet he asked W. S. Do you profess your self to be an Embassador of Christ or do you not W. Yea I do S. Then that you may understand my argument the better for I perceive you do not yet ken it I 'll illustrate it by a similitude Suppose we being not at peace with Spain twelve men should go hence to the King of that Nation and tell him that they are all sent Embassadors to him from the Parliament of England He asks them for their Commissions One of them shows him his Commission in Parchment and the other 11 tell him they have a Commission but he must beleeve them on their words for they cannot show it Every one of them exclaiming against this man who showes his Commission and against the other for counterfeits crying aloud that he himself and he alone is the true Embassador though he have nothing to prove it by more then the other ten false In such a case would you not say that these 11 are Knaves Answer W. and F. and all the rest stood still and said not a word S. If it be an heinous sin for any man to pretend a Commission from an earthly Prince or Parliament when he hath none indeed to show shall not his crime be incomparably more grievous his condemnation unspeakably more dreadful who pretends one from the King of Heaven when he hath none to show W. I have a commission S. Show it Here W. Stood mute and the people said he was wont to call the Clergie Dumb Dogs but now he was Dumb himself S. Let us hear or see what your commission is Distinguish that commission which you say you have from that which all the Damnable Hereticks in the World do or may produce for themselves Here W. made a long speech to the people To which S. replyed S. You have told us a long storie whereof I can make neither head nor foot I am sure it concerns my argument no more then if you should tell us they are now selling apples upon the Market-hill Tell us or show us what is your commission W. I have my commission from Christ S. I do not well hear what you say but I think you told us of another commission the other day from that which you speak of now W. I told you then that I had it from the power of God and now that I had it from Christ S. They differ For Moses had his commission from the power of God yet had it not from Christ who gave no commission to any before the Twelve Apostles Fox Christ and the Power of God are all one S. Well we will not discuss any impertinent questions Whether they be one or not you do not answer my argument 'T is this He who pretends to be an Embassador of Christ and hath no commission to show but only a talk that he is sent from Christ he hath none to show but what damnable Hereticks do or may show But you pretend to be an Embassadour of Christ and have no c. W. Did ever any Heretick pretend a commission from Christ S. Yes Dav. George Socinus Arius and all the Hereticks I ever read of W. They could not prove it by the effects as I can that is show the people that were converted by them S. Yes they could Arians converted a nation of Infidels to Christianity which is more then you pretend to and his opinions spread so far among them who before his time were Orthodox that in short time 't was said All the world seemed Arian W. But did the Hereticks live good lives S. 'T is confessed by all the Ancients that Arius and his Followers did by St. Austin that Pelagius did and I remember no Sect-Master that did not If you have no commission to show but this you see that all damnable Hereticks do or may show the same and so my conclusion remains firm That you open a door to damnable Heresy W. No I have proved my commission sufficiently and you have brought nothing against it S. Let the people judge of that You and I come not hither to be judges in our own cause W. You should prove me an Heretick which you do not go about to do S. I shall do that when I come at it 'T is the second question We are not yet come so far we are yet but at the door of your house I am proving that you open a door to let in Hereticks A man may open the door of his house to let them in and be none himself W. I 'll prove that I am none my self and that from Scripture S. You come hither to answer and not to oppose but since contrary to the rules of dispute you resolve to do both at once I 'll give you leave come let us hear your argument W. 'T is taken out of 2 Pet. 2.1 2. But there were false prophets also among the people even as there shall be false Teachers among you who privily shall bring in damnable Heresies even denying the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction S. Mark destruction and damnable twice applied to Heresie in one Verse W. And many shall follow their pernicious wayes by reason of whom the way of Truth shall be evil spoken of Hence I prove that I am no Heretick Observe here Hereticks are those who deny the Lord that bought them I do not deny the Lord that bought me Therefore I am no Heretick S. I deny your major All Hereticks do not deny the Lord that bought them The Apostle there instances in one sort of false Teachers the worst who would even deny the Lord Observe the word even here is a special brand put upon them It follows not hence that none are false prophets none false teachers or as you would have it none Hereticks but those who do deny the Lord that bought them Prove that Prove your Major W. I have Christ within me and therefore I do not deny the Lord that bought me S. You do not prove your major I beleeve you do not understand my answer I 'll explain it Suppose a man lying here sick unto death will you prove that he is not sick at all because he hath no plague-sore upon him or hath no consumption Because he hath not this or that or a third disease therefore hath he none There be many sorts of Hereticks the Apostle here mentions damnable Heresies in the plural as there be of diseased persons Some deny the Lord that bought them others not 'Till not follow that because you are not of one sort of these therefore you be not of the other Prove your major if you can if not give me leave to argue against you from this very Text Whitehead