THE TRYAL OF John Hambden Esq The 28 th day of November 1683. Ann. 35. Car. 2. Reg. John Hambden Esq being brought up by Writ of Habeas Corpus from the Tower of London and there being an Indictment preferred against him for Misdemeanor His Majesties Attorney General prayed that he might be Aâ—â—igned upon it which was done in this manner Cl. of Cr. JOhn Hambden You stand here Indicted by the Name of John Hambden late of the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Gent. For that you being a Pernitious and Seditious Man and a Person of a Wicked mind and of an impious unquiet and turbulent Disposition and contriving practising and falsly unlawfully unjustly maliciously turbulently and seditiously intending the Peace of our Soveraign Lord King Charles that now is and the common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disquiet molest and disturb and as much as in you lay Sedition within this Kingdom of England to incite stir up and procure and the Government of our said Lord the King in this Kingdom of England into danger to bring And that you the said John Hambden your most Impious Wicked and Seditious Intentions aforesaid to fulfil and perfect and bring to effect the last day of June in the Five and Thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord the King that now is and divers other days and times as well before as after with Force and Arms c. At the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex unlawfully unjustly maliciously and seditiously did assemble your self meet consult conspire and confederate with divers evil disposed Subjects of our said Lord the King to the Jurors unknown and with the said Persons did treat concerning your said most Wicked and Seditious Compassings Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to be executed fulfill'd and brought to effect and further that you the said John Hambden your most Wicked Impious and Seditious Contrivances Practices and Intentions aforesaid to fulfil perfect and reduce to effect then and there viz. the last day of June in the 35th year aforesaid and divers other days and times as well before as after at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid with Force and Arms c. falsly unlawfully unjustly maliciously and seditiously did consult consent censpire and confederate of an Insurrection within this Kingdom of England to be made and of procuring and providing Arms and Armed Men to be prepared in divers places within this Kingdom of England your same most Wicked Impious and Seditious Intentions and Compassings aforesaid to fulfil and perfect And that you the said John Hambden your most Wicked Impious and Seditious Intentions aforesaid to fulfil and perfect and bring to effect afterwards viz. the last day of June in the 35th year aforesaid at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid with Force and Arms c. falsly unlawfully unjustly wickedly maliciously and seditiously did consult agree and consent that a certain Person to the Jurors aforesaid unknown should be sent into Scotland to invite and incite divers evil disposed Subjects of our said Lord the King of his Kingdom of Scotland to come into this Kingdom of England to advise and consult with you the said John Hambden and others the aforesaid evil disposed Subjects of our said Lord the King in this Kingdom of England concerning Aid and Assistance to be expected and supplyed out of the said Kingdom of Scotland your said most Wicked Impious and Seditious Intentions and Compassings aforesaid to fulfil effect and promote in manifest contempt of the Laws of this Kingdom of England to the evil and most pernicious Example of all others in the like case offending and against the Peace of our said Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity How sayst thou art thou Guilty of this High Misdemeanour whereof thou standest Indicted and hast been now Arraigned or not Guilty Mr. Hambden Not Guilty Upon which Plea issue was joyned between His Majesties Attorney General on behalf of the King and Defendant and Bail was then taken for the Defendants appearance the next Term. Hillary Term 35 and 36. Car. Secundi Reg. In the beginning of the Term Sir Thomas Jenner Knight His Majesties Serjeant at Law and Recorder of the City of London Moved for a Tryal at the Bar in the Case between the King and Mr. Hambden which was by the Court appointed to be on Wednesday the 6th of February in the same Term. Die Mercurii 6. Februarii 1683. Anno Regni Reg. Car. Secundi 36. Cl. of Cr. Call the Defendant John Hambden Mr. Williams He appears Cl. of Cr. Gardez votrez Challenges Call Sir Charles Gerard. Cryer You shall well and truly try the Issue between our Soveraign Lord the King and John Hambden Gent. and a true Verdict give according to your Evidence So help you â—â—d Jurat Sir Charles Gerard. Cl. of Cr. Roger Jennings Esq Jur. Henry Hodges Esq Jur. Joshua Galliard Esq Mr. Williams We challenge him for the Defendant L. Ch. Just What is your Cause of Challenge Mr. Williams If your Lordship please to let him go through the Pannel we will shew cause if there be not enough left without him L. Ch. Just No shew your Cause now it being against the King Mr. Williams He has an Employment under the King He has an Office in the Forest and that we say is our Cause of Challenge L. Ch. Just What then if he have Mr. Williams My Lord We suppose then he is not an indifferent Person to try this Cause L. Ch. Just Ay let me hear that now proved and defended by any Gentleman of the long Robe that that is a good cause of Challenge Shew me what Law there is for it Mr. Williams To be of the Kings Robe or Pay or Sallery is an exception in any Case wherein the King is concerned L. Ch. Just Shew me any Law for that if you can Mr. Williams I know you are a Lawyer Mr. Wallop It is the Opinion of my Lord Coke in his Institutes that it is a good Cause of Challenge L. Ch. Just But there is the Opinion of all the Judges in Henry the Fourths time against it Mr. Wallop It is my Lord fol. 156. L. Ch. Just But I can cite you three or four Books and you have them all together in Rolls Abridgment Title Challenge where he sets down four Books one after another That it is no cause of Challenge even to be the Kings Tenant and there is a great deal of reason for it For if that were a good Cause of Challenge mark the Consequence then all Persons that hold Lands in England hold them mediately or immediately of the King and so the King could have no Free-holders to be Jury-Men in his Cause Mr. Williams This is a more special Cause of Challenge than that L. Ch. Just What can be greater than that of being the Kings Tenant Mr. Att. Gen. Especially when all the Land
of England was held of the Crown as originally it was Mr. Trever My Lord in 2d Rolls 646. Tit. Tryals There is the express Opinion of my Lord Rolls That to be of the Livery or a menial Servant of the Crown is a good Cause of Challenge L. Ch. Just And look you but in the 1 st Case in the 1 st Part of the Abridgment Title Challenges where he mentions 3 or 4 Books to the same purpose and 't is quite otherwise Mr. Williams My Lord In that of 1 st Rolls he only cites some Books but the other is his own Opinion L. Ch. Just Well make out your Fact if you have a mind to it but it is well known that neither Mr. Serjeant Rolls nor my Lord Coke when he delivered that Opinion are to be reckoned such Authorities in Crown matters Mr. Williams We will ask him my Lord if you please I suppose he will not deny it L. Ch. Just No make out your Fact if you will have any benefit by it 't is only a Challenge to the favour which ought not to be in the Kings Case I am very glad that we are now to debate this matter with Men of the Robe because we have had a strange sort of Notions and Reflections spread abroad of late as tho' the Judges now adays gave strange sort of Opinions and as tho' Persons that had been blemishes at the Bar were preferred to do strange things when they come upon the Bench but truly I wonder to hear that it should be a doubt when at the same time that which we gave as our Opinion about one particular Challenge that is as to Free-holders it was the Judgment of all the Judges That that was no Challenge and all the Counsel that were concerned in that Case know it was the Opinion of all the Judges But now if we meet with Lawyers I shall be glad to have the matter fairly argued and debated and pray shew me what Law or Reason is for it Mr. Wallop Certainly my Lord there is a great difference betwixt the general Allegiance of all Men and so of a general tenure and the dependance of any particular Person who is a menial Servant and receives Wages of the King L. Ch. Just I would desire to know of you Mr. Wallop which is the greater Challenge to say such a one is Tenant or such a one is immediate Servant to J. S Mr. Wallop There is a great difference my Lord I think between an immediate Tenant and the general tenure of all Subjects L. Ch. Just But certainly the Law is thus if he were an immediate or a mediate Tenant to any but the King if his Lord were party to the Suit it would be a good Challenge but the being Tenant to the King is no good Challenge in the Kings Case Mr. Williams My Lord I take it the Act of Parliament that takes away the Court of Wards and Liveries hath altered the Law as to that matter of Tenure for now we hold in Socage and that other Tenure is destroyed that was between the King and his Subjects L. Ch. Just But pray how comes it to be a Challenge now that was not one before Does that Act of Parliament make it a good cause of Challenge If it does shew it I tell you the Old Books are against it Mr. Williams I speak my Lord to the Tenure That that is nothing at all now to be objected because all is now in Socage L. Ch. Just I would not have Mr. Attorney insist upon a Jury-man but yet with-all I would not have it gone away with as Law that it is a good Cause of Challenge Mr. Wallop My Lord We finding in some Cases that are in our Books that it is held to be a good Cause of Challenge lay it before the Court. Mr. Att. Gen. How many 100 Errors do you find in my Lord Coke notwithstanding all his Learning L. Ch. Just I say if I was Mr. Attorney I would not contest for any particular man to be a Jury-man I speak that as my advice but I would not have it taken for Law nor would I have it broached abroad that tho' the Judges now were of one Opinion yet the Law truely was of another Mr. Jones If all that receive Sallery or Wages from the King are not to be Jury-men in the Kings Causes then all the Deputy Lieutenants and Militia Officers which generally are the most substantially Freeholders are excluded from being Jury-men Mr. Just Wythins Who will say so Mr. Jones No Lawyer in England surely will say so Mr. Williams Offices where there are no profit will not be the same exception Mr. Att. Gen. But he is no menial Servant of the Kings Mr. Williams What is he then Mr. Wallop We hear that he is Keeper of one of the Kings Forests and has a Fee for it Mr. Williams Well we will ask him upon a voyer dire Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord The Fact is quite otherwise and I desire they may make it out L. Ch. Just Truly I think 't is not tanti to insist upon any particular man but I find we are in Age that is so full of Cavils that if we act but according to the Presidents that went before us we are thought to act as Originals and to make new Laws when we only follow the Rules that we have received from our Predecessors And I say there was no such Challenge at Common Law that ever I read of in any of our Books nor is it any Challenge by the best Authorities extant Mr. Jones I desire them to shew me any such President That any man was challenged by one that was tried at the Suit of the King for a Challenge to the Favour but we must do unpresidented things or else there will be no satisfying of some Men. Mr. Att. Gen. I would fain know what one Opinion in a stragling Book is against the Currant of all our Law Mr. Williams Which do you call a stragling Book Mr Attorney my Lord Coke's Institutes or my Lord Rolls Abridgment L. Ch. Just I say the better Opinion of the Books is on the other side and the greater number too Mr. Att. Gen. First of all I do know of my own knowledge he is no menial Servant L. Ch. Just Mr. Attorney I do debate it for Learning sake truely I know not the Man nor whether he be the Kings Servant or not but I speak against allowing the Challenge that if he be set aside it may not be taken as a President and so pass for Law that the Kings Servants can't be Jury-men I would have you quit the man by consent but not as a force-put as tho' the Law were so for the Law I think is otherwise Mr. Att. General He is none my Lord they mistake L. Ch. Just Nay I know nothing of the man I tell you only what I think Mr. Wallop He receives Wages or a Fee from the King for his Office Mr. Just Wythins
shew him the way And I sent for this Man and when he came to him he hired him to go with him and I was by L. C. J. When he first came to your house about the middle of February was twelve month Whither was he bound then Northward or Southward Mr. Sheriffe He was going to Scotland that is Northward L. C. J. And you say after he came back again and lay another Night at your house Mr. Sheriffe Yes ten or twelve days after he did L. C. J. And which way went he then Mr. Sheriffe Then he came Southwards towards London L. C. J. Did you take exact notice of the Man Mr. Sheriffe Yes I saw him before his Majesty and the Council L C. J. And upon your Oath that same man you saw there was the same man that lodged at your house in February was 12 month Mr. Sheriffe Yes it is Mr. Att. Gen. What name did he go by at your house Mr. Sheriffe He went under the name of Mr. Clerke but what his Sirname was I can't tell L. C. J. Had he a servant with him Mr. Sheriffe He had a man with him that stay'd at our house during the time of his going Northward Mr. Att. Gen. What did he call his name Mr. Sheriffe Wil. Langston Mr. Att. Gen. Did he desire you to furnish him with a guide Mr. Sheriffe He told me his Servant did not know the way and his horse was a little lamish and desired me to get a guide for him For after he had dined at our house it happened to be a rainy day and he could not go further that night and therefore desired me to get him a man that knew that Countrey and I sent for this same man and he hired him and he went along with him next morning my Lord. Mr. Att. Gen. Whither was he to go Mr. Sheriffe Truly I did not know but he told me he did not know the way into Scotland and I directed him to a Gentlemans house at Jadbrough in the way Lord Ch. Just Is that the Road to Scotland Mr. Sheriffe Yes the high Road to one part of Scotland L. C. J. Did he tell you to what part or place of Scotland he was to go Mr. Sheriffe He named the West of Scotland I think he named Douglas but I do not know what place certainly he designed for Mr. At. Gen. Then where is Bell Bell Here. Mr. At. Gen. Had you a view of this man they call Aaron Smith Bell Yes I had Mr. At. Gen. Give an accompt whether you saw him in the Northand when and where Bell This man Mr. Sheriffe sent for me I live at New-Castle and there I keep Hackney Horses to serve any Gentlemen or be a Guide to them as there is occasion and Mr. Sheriffe sent for me and when I came he told me the Gentleman wanted a Guide into Scotland We immediately agreed it was upon Thursday night before that we call Easter Eve Lord Ch. Just When was it say you Bell It was the Thursday before Easters-Even so they call it with us that is Shrove-Tuesday L. C. J. Ay they call it so in those places because 't is the Even of the Fast of Ash-wednesday the beginning of Lent Well go on Bell We went away on Friday the next morning on our Journey towords Jadbrough and the 2d day which was Saturday in the afternoon my horse tired whereupon he left me with my horse and took the Mans man of the house where he left me to guide him for my horse would not ride up with him being tired and he resolving to go on and he bid me follow him on the Sunday morning to Jadbrough Town which I did and we stayed there all Sunday And on Monday morning I saw him take horse and another man that was his guide and away they went as I think he said towards Douglas he was going And he pay'd me and I returned again from him to New-Castle and left him L. C. J. Pray how far was this you say you went with him to Jadbrough how far distant is that from New-Castle Bell. To Jadbrough my Lord L. C. Just Yes Bell. 'T is Forty Miles my Lord. L. C. Just How near Scotland is it Bell. 'T is within some six Miles of the English Border L. C. Just Did you see him at any time after that Bell. I saw him at his coming back again being at Sheriffs house his Wife asked me if I would go up and see the Gentleman that I went with towards Scotland So I went up and he made me eat and drink at the Table with him Mr. Att. Gen. What Name did he go by Bell. He went by the name of Clerk Mr. Att. Gen. Was there any Servant with him Bell. There was a Man that came with him as a Servant there and was all the time at New-Castle that he was gone towards Scotland till he came back again L. C. Just Mr. Attorney Did this Man see Smith at the time the other saw him Bell. Yes I did L. C. Just And is that the Man that went by the name of Clerk at New-Castle and that you went with towards Scotland Bell. Yes It is Mr. Atterbury And when they charged him with it Aaron Smith did not deny it Mr. Att. Gen. Did you go any by-Road to get into Scotland Bell. No 't is the Road Gentlemen usually go to Jadbrough and so on because 't is something the nearer way to that part of Scotland as we judge it to be therefore Gentlemen use it Mr. Att. Gen. Is it an high-open-Road Bell. Yes 't is the high-open Way to that part of the Country Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord Howard Pray were the Names of any of the Scotch-men mentioned at your Meeting that were to be sent for L. Howard Yes There was my Lord Melvin Sir John Cockram and one Cambell Mr. Att. Gen. Now my Lord We will give you an account That as Smith went into Scotland so these persons soon after came into England Jury-Man My Lord We desire that my Lord Howard would name those Scotch-men that were to come L. Howard There was my Lord Melvin Sir John Cockram and one Cambel one that was of my Lord Argyles Name and Family and there was another Name but I can't remember what that Name was Mr. Att. Gen. We shall give you an Account my Lord That they came immediately after this to Town and at the breaking out of the Plot they Absconded L. C. Just Mr. Attorney Has my Lord Howard his Pardon Mr. Attorney Yes my Lord he has L. C. Just Then your Lordship may be covered L. Howard I can't tell but they may ask me some Questions Mr. Att. Gen. Then you may be uncovered when they ask them in the mean time your Lordship may be covered Swear Sir Andrew Foster which was done Pray Sir will you tell my Lord and the Jury what you know about the Cambell's and Sir John Cockram's being in Town Or any other Scotch-men that
any thing else Men have died for the Truth and we Look upon those as Martyrs and the best of Martyrs that dye for the Truth Now that this Noble Lord or that any man should call this a Drudgery which is so manifest a Duty by giving a true Testimony to preserve the King's Life and support the Government against the Contrivance and Conspiracies of Evil men is but an odd Insinuation and truly I think is rather to be taken in this sense as to my Lord That he did strain a little to make his Discovery the more profitable to him and so did say more so far I may safely go then any one else did say And my Lord This is that that I would observe upon the first part of the Evidence As for that part that Concerns Aaron Smith the Evidence given by Sheriffe and Bell I submit that to your Lordship how far that can any way affect Mr. Hambden the Defendant It is introduced to Fortify the Testimony of my Lord Howard and it is introduced by himself thus That at their Meeting at Mr. Hambden's House there was a Discourse of some Assistance to be had from Scotland but sayes he at the second Meeting at my Lord Russels then it came to a further discourse and Collonel Sidney did undertake to name a Person to send thither and a Person was named he does not say Mr. Hambden was concerned in it or that Mr. Hambden named the man or any thing particular as to Mr. Hambden more then that he was in the Company Mr. Hambden had no hand in the undertaking or sending him into Scotland that was altogether the part of Mr. Sidney save this that he sayes my Lord Russel Writ the Letter that was to go by him It does not appear Mr. Hambden was at all concerned in it but only was there L. C. Just And consented to it Mr. Williams I would not strain any thing my Lord further than the Evidence is L. C. Just Nor do not Misrepeat it neither Mr. Williams I design not any such thing my Lord. L. C. Just But you do though For he Swears it every one of them consented Mr. Williams By silence it must be then For he does not say That he said any thing He Swears only Collonel Sidney undertook to manage it to send a Person and my Lord Russel to write the Letter L. C. Just And all the rest Consented to it Mr. Williams What is meant by Consent when nothing was said I must leave to the Jury I must agree the L. Howard did Swear that my Clyent was in their Company but how far he did or did not Consent does not at all appear and how far this will Charge my Clyent I must leave to you Gentlemen But the Proof as to this matter stands thus that Aaron Smith was at New-Castle in February last that he went publickly Now my Lord Howard sayes that he went to agitate a Confederacy between the Malecontents of Scotland and those in England Now it is strange that a man that was to agitate such a Concern should go publickly with a Servant to New-Castle so publickly as to be known again and of his own accord tell them he was going to such a place in Scotland And be it so in Fact Will any man apply this to any thing was done before as my Lord Howard sayes about a Consultation to joyn in Rebellion Will any man think that he should talk at that kind of rate if that were his Employment and tell whether he were going But I rely upon this in point of Evidence 'T is not proved yet that Aaron Smith was in Scotland That he came within Six miles of the Borders of Scotland is proved but it is not proved he was in Scotland or did Agitate any Conspiracy there or did any thing more than go within Six miles of the Borders of Scotland But then they would press it further and they say that there were some Scotch Gentlemen that in the Summer came here into England and that they hid themselves when the Plot was Discovered It does not appear my Clyent had any Conversation with these Scotch Gentlemen or any of them or was ever in their Company 'T is a very remote inference to bring any thing of this to affect my Clyent in this High Charge My Lord We shall add one thing more to disprove that part of the Indictment that layes the Imputation of Turbulency and Sedition to the Charge of Mr. Hambden and which also will shew the improbability of his being concerned in any thing of this Nature We shall prove him to be a Person of a sober Conversation of a retired Life and studious Disposition and as an Evidence for the Defendant we shall prove that he in October 1680. left England for his Healths sake and went into France for the recovery of his Health He continued there till about Michaelmas was Twelve Month then he returned 'T is true he continued in England from Michaelmas to the time they speak of but we shall make it plain that in February my Clyent and my Lord Mountague had adjusted matters between themselves to go the beginning of Summer again into France there to continue and abide some time for their Healths Here is a strange kind of imagination that this Contrivance between my Lord Howard and my Lord Shaftesbury that was going on before this time and that was Disappointed and my Lord Shaftesbury went away and afterwards Dyed in Holland was taken up by my Clyent and those other Persons when my Clyent as we shall prove never intended to stay in England My Lord he was a Parliament-man in both the last Parliaments but appeared in neither of them being all the while in France for the Recovery of his Health We shall prove him to be one Studiously inclined that he lived a Retired Life and kept very little or no Company and you will hear from Persons of very great Honour and Quality what he is as to his Person and as to his Opinion and then we shall submit it to you Gentlemen of the Jury whether you can believe him Guilty of this he is Charged with which is your Issue You are to try whether he be Guilty or Not Guilty of the Crime Charged in the Indictment Mr. VVallop My Lord and Gentlemen of the Jury I desire to make one Observation before we call our Witnesses L. C. J. Pray do not take up our time altogether in Speeches but go on to your Evidence Mr. Wallop I desire to observe but one thing my Lord. L. C. J. Make your Observations at last but spend not our time in Speeches I know you will expect to be heard at last and so you shall whatever you will say Mr. Williams Call the Earl of Anglesey the Lord of Clare and Lord Paget Mr. Ducas who appearing was sworn Now we have him here we must begin with him my Lord. Mr. Ducas Pray what did you hear my Lord Howard say at any
Lord Howard I cannot positively say it was this day or that day of the Month but being about the middle of January I conjecture it was about the 14 th but he is not positive to the day He says accordingly they went to Mr. Hambden's House which was the place first design'd for them to meet in He says there accordingly they did all Six meet and that it being Mr. Hambdens House they thought it most proper for him who was Master of the House who usually bids his Guests welcome to break silence and to impart the business of the Design they met about He says accordingly Mr. Hambden after the first Complements of Entertainment did give an account of the business they were come about and that it was in order to have a Rising This he says was proposed by Mr. Hambden He tells you then they fell into Debate about the time when concerning Men and Arms and Money and likewise concerning the Places He tells you the Places wherein the Rising was design'd to be were Devonshire Cheshire Somersetshire and other places that is as to the Circumstance of the Place Then he tells you concerning the time it was Debated Whether it should be all at one time or at several times Whether they should onely begin here and the Country fall in or all at once That likewise they had in consideration the business of Money and that his Grace the Duke of Monmouth did speak of 30 or 35 Thousand Pounds or some such Sum at that time But then as was natural for men of Deliberation and Consideration to consult about they took into Debate that they might not go headlong to endeavour to conciliate another Party to chime in as he says along with them in the business they were going about and accordingly it was thought fit and proposed That there should be an endeavour to conciliate a friendship with some Persons in Scotland to fall in with them and then he tells you who the Persons were that were named Some of the Names he remembers and others he has forgot he speaks particularly of the Cambeles Sir John Cockram and my Lord Melvin and he says other persons were mentioned but he can't remember their Names and my Lord Russel knew some of these persons and the Duke of Monmouth knew some others of them because of his near Relation to the Earl of Argyle the person that you know was proscrib'd for Treason in the Kingdom of Scotland He says that so far the debate of this Matter went that they thought fit a Messenger should be provided a Trusty man to be sent inâ—â— Scotland to Treat with these Gentlemen about this Matter and my Lord Russel I think he says undertook to write a Letter to be carryed by this Messenger to these Scotch Gentlemen He says pursuant to this Consultation at Mr. Hambdens a Fortnight after or thereabouts which brings it up to the beginning of February then was the Meeting at my Lord Russel's House and there they Debated these Matters over again and the whole managery of sending a Messenger into Scotland was left to the discretion of Col. Sidney and he undertook that Work that was his Post that he was to manage and he does say That he does very well remember That Aaron Smith was the person proposed then and tho' he was unknown to some of the Company yet he was well known to others and by reason of that knowledge that others had of him they looked upon him as a person very fit and every way qualify'd for it So that Gentlemen here is proved a Consultation in order to the Raising of Men to Infest the Government a discourse concerning Money and Arms for this End and the Places where and the time when and of conciliating a Friendship with some discontented persons in Scotland to joyn and chime in with these Conspirators in England And then there is yet another Circumstance very Remarkable Because tho my Lord spake it not at the same time that he delivered his Testimony yet upon the Question asked he gives you a plain account of it and it has a plain dependance upon what went before Said they among themselves 'T is proper for us as near as we can to shut the Door against any Exceptions about these Mens coming to Treat with us but how shall we get them hither without Suspition We must have some Shams or Cant or other to be a pretence for these People to come into England and that was agreed to be about some Plantation in Carolina This he says was the Result of that Meeting and that when the Meeting was broke up about Three or Four Days afterwards mind the circumstance of Time Gent. for 't is very material Col. Sidney and he met together they went to Col. Sidney's House and there he saw him take Money out of a Till where there were several hundreds of Guineys or pieces of Gold and as he believes he says he took Threescore Guineys or some such Sum and told him it was to give to Aaron Smith in order to his Journey into Scotland That he went out with him in his Coach but Mr. Sidney set him down by the way and he himself went into London telling him he went to that purpose to give Aaron Smith the Money Some time after about a Week or a Fortnight or Ten Days after that he says he met with Mr. Sidney again and he says Mr. Sidney gave him an account That he had heard Aaron Smith had been at Newcastle but he had not heard of him since that time and that is another Circumstance in point of Time Gent. So that you have here a positive Oath made by my Lord Howard that Mr. Hambden was privy and consenting to all these Debates as to the Raising of Men and the Levying of Money and about the conciliating a Friendship with these men of Scotland and about sending a Messenger into Scotland to that purpose And if my Lord Howard do Swear true no man living can doubt but that Mr. Hambden is guilty of this Indictment The first meeting was at his House and there he did take notice of what had been formerly done and proposed the things breaking the silence and entering into the Debate which shews that he had been discoursing about it before and had it in his thoughts before or else he could not have propounded it as the end of their meeting Now this Gentlemen Here is a positive Fact and as Mr. VVilliams says true no man living can give any Answer to a positive Fact but by some other things that may be Circumstances to oppose that Fact Now he says there are no Circumstances that have been proved that will give any Credibility to what has been deposed besides the positive Oath of my Lord Howard So that says He your Fact tho it be positively Sworn is not supported by any Circumstances of the Fact that may give Credibility to it And he objects very materially for if it be